Could you give a summary? I stopped using youtube.
The video pretty much describes why Fandom is so bad and why many games are moving their wikis to alternative services, and why you should stop using it in general. Some examples include:
Ads everywhere, including autoplaying video ads that play another ad when they're done. There are also ads sneakily inserted in the middle of articles that are related to the wiki, like a Gamespot review (Gamespot is owned by Fandom)
A sidebar you can't remove that promotes their content
Fandom hijacked the community's Mcdonald's wiki to turn it into a giant advertisement
Accounts that are 4 days old can bypass restrictions and easily vandalize pages
Fandom sometimes introduces things nobody wants, such as AI generated answers that are usually wrong, take up the top half of the page, and with no way for wiki admins to remove it. They removed it after a lot of backlash but still...
When people fork their wikis to other sites, fandom refuses to let admins delete their old wikis. This makes new wikis difficult to start because Fandom usually ends up as the top result on search engines, even if they're old abandoned wikis.
Fandom seems like my experience on Fextralife
And then you learn about Fextra's embedded twitch player that artificially inflates their twitch view count and pushes out smaller content creators who are actually trying to engage with a game's audience.
God, I hate constantly seeing their channel with 50k+ views on Twitch. It's insane that embedding the player throughout their entire website isn't against TOS.
You can block the element behind the player with the UBlock Origin element picker and it won't comeback. I took the time to build this into my UBlock filters list since I regularly use their shitty WotR Wiki. I would kill for a good WotR Wiki.
Thank you
Seems like on that last one someone could go through and change all the content in every page to a link to the new wiki. A PIA? Certainly, but at least it would get the ball rolling and use the built up SEO from fandom to help your new site get views.
Unfortunately they just use a bot to revert those. You're not allowed to truly migrate off fandom, all you can do is fork your own data and try to out-SEO the fandom wiki, because as soon as you put it.on fandom, fandom owns it too.
I wonder if you could use a bot and AI to write fake information and post that instead. Seems like fandom wouldn't have enough game specific info to judge the accuracy, especially if it happened over time.
Oh yeah... Gamespot, that place existed and it was terrible always. Then you look at the other things Gamespot own and realize they all got butchered in terms of reliability and impact.
When the OG crew left, so did I.
You're the best, thanks
Accounts that are 4 days old can bypass restrictions and easily vandalize pages
What can we do with this information, I wonder...
The video also calls out that one of the challenges in moving off of fandom is SEO. The fandom sites often are above the new sites even when the fandom site becomes a pile of unmaintained, vandalized garbage. This suggests that vandalism actually helps fandom.
The best thing we can do is not visit the sites and don't link to them, instead using and linking to their new sites.
Restricted access to moderation and admin features of wiki
Restrictions in layout/formatting to maintain compatibility with ad placements
Forced addition of an AI generated section in wikis which contained gibberish or straight up wrong information
Worst TL;DR:
Fandom is a wiki farm, meaning it hosts a bunch of wikis. Also they run on freely available software mediawiki.
Fandom has a couple main problems:
Barriers to entry are super low, verification for users takes place 4 days post account creation, with no other steps needed by the user. Paired with the limited options that moderators have for editing access on wikis and you have a wiki that is much tougher to moderate.
Ads. Fandom is for-profit. And that means super obtrusive ads that we've come to expect. But fandom also shoved ads in the middle of wiki pages, with admins having no control of where those should be placed. There's also the matter of sketchy ads that are served to minors. Also, some of the ads are outdated but are for subsidiary companies of Fandom.
The Grimace Incident. Basically Fandom took over and turned the McDonald's and grimace wikis into huge advertisements, wiping out the hard work that the actual wiki maintainers did. They also put in a bunch of factually incorrect information, literally going against the whole purpose of a wiki and really worrying other wikis, because what's stopping Fandom from getting paid again and repeating the event with their wikis?
I'm sure I glossed over a bunch of the details but that's the best I can do from memory.
How do you find these? You search alternative video players or is there some site where you enter a youtube url and it gives you alternatives?
Personally I use a browser extension called LibRedirect.
It is called individious, there are many hosts you can choose from. In any instance, a youtube link you paste in the search bar gives you that video in individious. If a certain video is not working, you can use “Switch Individious Instance” to quickly jump to another.
Yes, integrate yourself with the digital world! Translate the videos for us!
Stop using Fandom
Why?
Sorry, that's the best summary I could come up with
Did you stop using YouTube because of the intrusive ads and monetization?
Same issue with Fandom.
Tbh mainly because of dumb content. I grew up with free TV so i understand and can life with some ads if the content can be used for free. Also tbh i still sometimes use it for music and that one video gaming magazine's channel that i really like.
I feel like I've become somehow allergic to youtubers and such.
I loath this site. It’s rarely loads well and the images never load for me. And it’s always so slow. It’s probably because I have an adblocker.
It is slower without the adblocker since it waits for the ads to load if they are not blocked.
I have been preaching abandoning it for YEARS. It's even worse on mobile because the formating is so messed up some links just don't work. And even without adblock, there's so many ads that THEY slow down the site. Just because it's 'free' everyone defaults to fandom and I hate it so much
I think the Doom community successfully avoided fandom.
What’s to stop someone else from scraping their site and hosting a better one? I’ve never heard of anyone who actually likes Fandom.
Minecraft just moved to an official site recently
Terraria (and also most of the bigger terraria mods) is another big one that moved off of fandom a while ago. Wiki.gg is so much better.
I've found the best way to browse Fandom(if necessary) is to use a VPN set to Nordic countries. Ads are very generic and in a language I can't read. So they are very easy to spot.
It redirects you from fandom wikis to the new official wikis, to which the community has now moved from the fandom one. Also filters out fandom results from search engines only if an independent, more up-to-date alternative exists.
If something is still hosted on fandom with no indie wiki, redirects it to a BreezeWiki instance.
I use it in combination with wiki.gg redirect, which redirects to newer wikis which aren’t independent, but moved to wiki.gg from fandom.
Update: IndieWikiBuddy can now redirect to Wiki.gg wikis too, no need for wiki.gg redirect.
My easy solution, whenever I land on a fandom page, is to add "anti" in front of the domain name, "antifandom" will filter out the crep out of the original page and present a clean version of the wiki. This is powered by BreezeWiki
You could always use Invidious or Piped (instance list here) to avoid using YT directly if you want. You won't get any ads or anti-adblocker bullshit with Invidious, so I usually use that. I'm not sure about Piped, but it seems good too. Unless your point is to simply stop using YT for anything, in which case just ignore what I said.
EDIT: To the now 8 of you who downvoted me, just, why? No, seriously, why. If you downvote me, please at least tell me why you are instead of downvoting and leaving. It makes me anxious to think that I was a dick or spreading misinformation or just being rude and not even noticing it, and would much rather have someone say something to me so I can at least know what people don't like. That's not to say I would agree with it, I might not, but I'd rather know what the problem is so I can agree or disagree.
I think it's the fact that not everything needs a 20 minute video. There's a lot of topics that I'm interested in but skip because I don't have 20, 30, 40, 60 minutes for it.
That makes sense. I just thought he had something against Youtube (and for good reason), since he only said "Not watching a YT video" instead of "Not watching a 20min video".
I agree with the premise; fandom sucks. But does it really require a 20 minute exposé though?
I've seen a few links to the Indie Wiki Buddy extension page. I'm not too interested in installing a browser extension to find new wikis, but I bookmarked their listing page: https://getindie.wiki/listings/
An extension called Indie Wiki Buddy can also help with this by helping direct you to known alternatives to fandom for specific franchises or falling back to Breezewiki-based instances that rehost Fandom content without all of the Fandom bloat. It also provides this filtering and hinting to search results too, so you don't have to change your workflow too much to use it.
TLDR; Fandom has a lot of QAnon articles written to make the scams seem legitimate to less computer savvy people.
My mom has fallen in a Qanon conspiracy world. The people from that world write Fandom articles about themselves to make it seem legitimate. I found them when I started investigating these people trying to convince her to steer clear.
I don’t trust a single thing on Fandom anymore.
I've always advocated against using Fandom. Not much customization and so many ads it makes the platform downright unusable.
A much better alternative is Wiki.gg, created by some of the original founders of Fandom.
Great suggestion, thanks.
You might have heard of alternative frontends to services such as YouTube (Piped, Invidious), X/Twitter (Nitter), etc.
Something similar exists for Fandom: Breezewiki. This instance seems to occasionally result in errors, other instances seem to work more reliable.
Mfw you want to check some quick Minecraft details and you get a pop up then half your screen covered with one video. Thank heavens that they created minecraft.wiki as a wiki is basically essential for playing that game.
Okay, I will stop using the thing I have never used once in my life
You probably did use it if you're a nerd under its old name, Wikia, back before it got enshittified.
Fandom hosts a lot of wikis for long forgotten nich'e games and with these games there usually isn't enough interest to move to another wiki. When it comes to these wikis theres rarely if ever a team behind updating the wiki and more often than not the content is just being updated and maintained by random invidividuals who just happen to be engaging with the content at given time. The very low barrier of entry makes this possible as you don't really need to join a team to edit pages or even coordinate with other people.
When playing one of these games I like to record and share some my observations and findings about games mechanics etc but more often than not the only wiki I can find is fandom wiki that is either incomplete and possibly even abandoned. I cant be bothered to create my own Wiki for these games so I'll just start editing that one instead because it's easy, the foundation is usually already there and I don't need to bother taking any sort of responsibility/mantle of maintainer or admin.
While Fandom may not be the most optimal choice and there may be better ways to host wiki out there its still better than some obnoxious google document or poorly formatted steam guide that no one else can edit.
The reason you often cannot find smaller wikis is because this site killed them off.
All too common within attention economy for people to go for the more popular choice.
Search engine algorithms tend to make things even worse.
But there are games out there that might not even have wikis if Fandom didn't make the barrier of entry so low.
What games are so small as to not be capable of generating a non fandom wiki, but are large enough that the wiki is not completely empty and factually incorrect?
Many would consider both of these games "dead" by many metrics but people can still buy them, play them and have fun with them.
And wiki.gg wouldnt host them?
The problem is that the content is already in wiki fandom and there are no contributors invested/interested enough to migrate all the information to alternative wiki. These fandom wikis have no teams just random individuals making contributions of various sizes.
If I do ever get invested enough to a game to actually create a wiki I'll definately use something else than fandom.
..... Didnt you just say you made those 2 examples? Or did I misread
Quoting what I said in earlier reply:
Neither of these where completely empty when I found them. Been updating them and filling some gaps in the wiki for the fun of it.
I have not created any wikis myself I've just contributed to few that I've found which unfortunately have been hosted on fandom.
Ah, I did misread.
Pretty sure wiki.gg has a wiki port request, so the fandom versions can be moved
no such thing as ethical consumption under capitalism.
we have to use a decentralized open alternative (like lemmy) to take back control, switching to a proprietary solution by yet another company will only delay the problem further.
Or we could just... host our own wikis. There's plenty of open source software for them. It's not hard. Not everything needs to be federated.
that was my suggestion, sort of.
it can be bigger than that too ofc.
decentralized open alternative (like lemmy) to take back control
which unfortunately still require capital to run
of course it does.
and better if that capital comes from a network of companies/volunteers instead of one monolithic corporation that can just bully everyone into their will.
no such thing as ethical consumption under capitalism.
There was a time, long ago, where companies actually cared about their customers, and wanted to sell them good products while making a profit, and they strived for the win - win, and the "customer is always right" philosophy. They took their fair share, and they didn't triy to squeeze every last dime out of their customers with crappy products.
Not that that they were saints by any stretch of the imagination (there were definitely bad players back then too) but there used to be a sense of ethics with Capitalism, in America at least, a sense of products being warrantied to work the way they should be and advertised as how they would actually work.
I have no effing idea how to get back to that state, as it seems like the "lunch for wimps" crowd are running the c-suites these days.
No way of going back to that state unless we start from scratch, power is too consolidated as it is. And capitalism would soon evolve back to something like this eventually anyway.
We are on late stage capitalism now, as predicted by Marx.
e: also those better times werent that good either if you werent white/from somewhere rich, not long ago kids were working in coal mines.
Regulation. Take the money out of governing, both national government and private directors. If someone makes decisions that affect many people, make that person accountable, either through a competitive market or a functioning justice system.
The problem is that the fantastically efficient tool that is capitalism will try to increase it reach as much as possible. Killing competition and undermining laws will always be the end goal, so long as they are in anyway allowed.
The reason companies used to care is because not caring drove customers to the competition. But then there was no competition, and the care evaporated. As long as they are allowed, they will take. Civility can only be guaranteed if profits are on the line.
food?
Nestle.
We can't just get out of capitalism, but you can work to improve your situation. If you have a yard, grow a garden.
Also, see if there's a mutual aid group in your area, and if not consider talking with your neighbors about what you can do to help each other out. One person might be good with car Maintanance. Another might be a good gardener. Everyone can contribute something.
Gardening will not solve the climate crisis because it won't offset the millions of tons of co2 being emitted.
It would help, sure, but we have to radically change production to stop it. Currently the rich own those, so the best we can do short of removing them is plead.
Also yes, you can't just get rid of capitalism, history shows it takes years/decades of planning and organizing. Start as soon as possible because I don't think we have all that much time.
Where did I say it would solve the climate crisis? I was just having an alternative to capitalism to provide some of your food. Of course it won't dismantle capitalism or save the world. People have been gardening forever, yet here we are. It's just a step you can take to take some control over your situation back.
Never said I would'nt do it either. I'd love to grow my own food over pesticide garbage we have in supermarkets here. I just don't have any land at all, and there isnt any in a pretty big radius around me.
That's fair. Most people don't. You can probably still grow some food if you have access to a balcony even. It won't be much, but it can offset some of your reliance on purchasing it.
Also, again, look into mutual aid groups around you. There may be someone who does have space for a garden and produces more than they can consume. Maybe you have some skill or ability that could help them and get some food in return.
I got special Stylish CSS blocking half the shit on Fandom. IDK about any politics about them but the site is borderline unusable.
Independent wikis for those media franchises that have them.
Does this mean self-hosting the wiki?
Because that increase the barrier of entry by tenfold as a lot of publishers/game studios do not host their own wikis.
Or use a wiki host that's not affiliated with Fandom.
But they did buy out Gamepedia too...
for Minecraft, minecraft.wiki
for others i don't know, some will have alternatives and others won't...
Unless the game your playing made their own, or someone else decided to self host and actually fill it with content (and finding it can be a pain), there isn't one.
Hoping someone knows a good fallout wiki, I hate using fandom, but it's the only one I can find with good info.
Regarding SEO, What's stopping maintainers from vandalizing their own fandom page?
It would not be difficult to make a bot to update fandom page with a convincing but slightly wrong info, after a few hundred iterations, it's all useless. Go look at what google recommend and do complete opposite. I'm convinced this will bomb ranking and put whatever wiki they migrated to at the top.
The disinformation doesn't really matter. The fandom wiki's naturally become incorrect over time, since they're typically no longer maintained after a community switches, so vandalizing it after the fact won't really change anything. For Path of Exile, it took the developers linking to the new wiki, and about two years of the community sending new players to the correct wiki, before it even started to show up in searches. Even then, I believe the fandom wiki still shows up first if you look at some of the very old entries.
UESP has also been the best information resource for Elder Scrolls since forever but that doesn't stop Fandom's Elder Scrolls Wiki from being the first result if you Google "Dunmer".
Misinformation may reduce repeat visit, that part, I have no idea if google take into account when they rank the result. Domain/page age also plays a role. But what about other "problems"? If I try to de-optimize every items on that guide, will it speed up the de-rank as well?
For just about every single pokemon fan game I play, the fandom wiki pages have pretty much been utter garbage. Either they're out of date, contain almost no useful info, or have a slew of other problems making it as painful as falling in a bunch of cacti. Same for most other ones I used to visit.
Will admit, Pokemon Empire having their own site for their fan game is still infinitely better than the fandom pages for it.
Does serebii.net or bulbapedia only cover the original franchise games? Just curious. Haven't played a Pokémon game in a long time.
I think bulbapedia cover just about any official content as far as I'm aware, so long as it's licensed or made by nintento directly. Anything from the games to the anime to the trading cards to things like obscure licensed Japanese arcade games based on the franchise.
Don't know if serebii does all that or if it just focuses on the games since I don't use it.
Honestly, fuck Fandom. Do we have a Fediverse alternative?
Why would we need a fediverse alternative 😂 unless you want to go around editing wikis with your mastodon account, wikis are basically just static webpages. It's called HTML 😂
Wikis like Fandom typically make it easy/easier to create and edit pages. Wiki editors are rare and you want to make it as easy for them to latch onto helping and volunteering as is possible.
Maybe a fediverse option isn't needed (though the below comment's point about having a central account would make it easier for a lot of users), but having a convenient and easy way to create a wiki for your favorite fandom, without using Fandom would go a long way toward breaking Fandom's hold over the entertainment sections of the internet.
I, for one, would be totally cool having a single account to do everything online as long as it had really good security. 🤷🏻♂️
Believe it or not, Wikipedia actually does use a single global account for all of its wikis. That includes Wikipedia, Wiktionary, Wikimedia Commons, and almost every other site listed on their website. The only one you have to create a separate account for is their test wiki where they test new versions of MediaWiki (the software they develop for their wikis).
Fandom was founded by Jimmy wales, who its current CEO. He is the cofounder of Wikipedia, so that's a bit ironic.
Jimmy Wales actually isn't as directly involved in Wikipedia as he once was. These days, he only holds the chair emeritus and the founder's seat on the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees.
His chair position changed to a chair emeritus in 2006, and the site implemented the unified login feature in May 2008, though they'd been discussing implementing the feature since 2005.
Just use dokuwifi or media wiki or any of the already made OSS self-hosted solutions...
There's Fossil which is a version control system with a wiki, so you can just straight up fork and mirror existing wikis.
I learned about this plug in the other day. Indie Wiki Buddy. It's not a fediverse alternative, but it's the next best thing. It can redirect your Fandom results to their independent alternatives.
Given the criticism of Fandom, why not use a Piped link instead of YT? It's like criticizing YT on YT.
YT isn't fandom-level bad.
It's certainly heading in that direction
I don't seem to run into a lot of Hollow Knight fans around here yet so I popped over to the HK community on that other website. Confirm: this video is one of the top trending on YouTube today lol. I figured, mossbag is...shall we say a very well-known figure in the community, if you're not in the know.
I absolutely still rely on the wiki for HK shit I can't remember like boss HP scaling and where tf was that last item I need for that one upgrade god dammit?? Glad to see them move to somewhere independent. Will donate.
I used to have the app, but that was ad galore. Now when I browse it, usually for some book series, with firefox and some ad blockers, it's perfectly fine to read and browse. So I don't really get the hate, but that might be because I don't usually browse it for new content, but as a reference for finished series, like the wheel of time.
Another comment without watching so I might be repeating something in the video, but did they mention how poor bloated the site is? I was trying to use the Forgotten Realms wiki and after a few tabs it would grind my browser to a halt. For something that really just needs to be serving text and a few images it's wild how badly the site performs.
Yah. Fandom is an Adblock-required site. And even then it's pretty hard to browse.
Who knows of a good Final Fantasy wiki?
I wish I could, but I like browsing Logopedia which is hosting on Fandom and has announced no plans to leave the site. If they did, I'd completely abandon that place and block everything that has to do with them.
And no, it's not easy to migrate a database of hundreds of thousands of logos to another wikifarm, especially if new stuff arrives all the time.
Saw this yesterday. Great video that informed me on something I was completely oblivious to. Fuck fandom
I only use it for WoWpedia, because it has a lot of information from years ago. I still remember when they added so many unnecessary interface elements and the website became slower.
Luckily, I found https://userstyles.world/style/5722/clean-fandom-wiki, which made it usable again.
The wow wiki has recently moved to wiki gg and they ported everything over so definitely Check it out!
The biggest insult is that Jimbo Wales of Wikipedia helped create fandom because he was fed up of people using Wikipedia to create detailed articles about fictional characters and video games. Wikipedia now has an artificially strict notability policy where things are falsely declared as not notable so they can be monetized on Fandom, all while Jimbo Wales has the gall to ask for money for his "non profit" Wikipedia while he makes the real money on Fandom.
I'd be very curious to hear more details on this, do you happen to have a source handy, or any recommended reading?
In fairness, the money he gets from being a scumbag with fandom probably can't be used to fund Wikipedia unless he wants to donate the money he's making from his business to run his nonprofit. It's not surprising he wouldn't do that (even if thats the way the world ought to work) and I don't presently have reason to believe he personally gets anything out of the donations that are given to keep Wikipedia running
I love hearsay and dramatic "quotations".
If this is real I'll be genuinely glad I haven't donated to wikipedia yet.
I mean the conspiracy theory side of it is questionable but the basic facts are true:
Wikipedia has a policy against non-notable things. They were always embarrassed by the fact that every detailed version of every Pokemon had its own page, whereas the pages for important historical events were stubs. The WP:Notability standard has been the bane of every garage band and open-source game and DVD extra that was booted off the site because trivia cannot meaningfully be checked, trivia that otherwise allows hoax articles to live on.
Jimbo Wales decided to profit off of the desire to create fan-encyclopedias or even complete nonsense (like, for example, Penny Arcade's Elemenstor Saga wiki, which details the history of a novel series and anime and cardgame that never existed) by creating Wikia, the for-profit Wikipedia that had no standards about what you could put on it besides legality. Just create your own Wikia and run it with an iron fist.
Now, the question is whether he did (1) in order to drive profitable users to (2). That's where the conspiracy question lives. And I tend to assume good faith. People's morals erode over time, not all at once. Since both (1) and (2) are totally legitimate, but profit motive encourages the millimetre-by-millimetre enshittification of Wikia into the horrible thing it is today.
It doesn't seem so devious to me. He wanted Wikipedia to be considered a serious source of information which admittedly, detailed pages for video games, fictional characters and such would work against that goal. Being a non profit also works towards being taken seriously in the eyes of some.
So he created a secondary company to host that content and profit from it. Why not, I would argue. Don't use the product If you don't like it. I personally hate wikia. It's slow and covered in ads. The question I ask is why is there no competition in the space? Jimbo's not on the hook for that.
The video posted is actually all about what the competition is like :) its hard to compete with a huge company like wikia/fandom, but folks are making it work anyway, and that's pretty cool. I really enjoyed the video
Starting up wikis is so easy nowadays that there's no excuse. I maintain a few Dokuwiki-based ones, it's my preferred engine for simple wiki stuff, but Mediawiki (the same one that powers Wikipedia) is not bad either and not really too difficult, just a bit more demanding storage-wise. Heck, you can currently fire-and-forget DW-based wikis on SDF's "one payment" access tier, even! Probably on Neocities too, haven't checked.
Easy. Never heard of it. Done.
Lemmy has more niche users (read: geeks/nerds) on one site than I've ever experienced.
It's awesome, but man, I feel so out of my element. I thought I was a nerd on reddit but on lemmy I have like no idea what half of the users are talking about or consider normal. It's legit fascinating, tbh. I really wish it was possible to see the demographics of users here
Could you give a summary? I stopped using youtube.
The video pretty much describes why Fandom is so bad and why many games are moving their wikis to alternative services, and why you should stop using it in general. Some examples include:
Ads everywhere, including autoplaying video ads that play another ad when they're done. There are also ads sneakily inserted in the middle of articles that are related to the wiki, like a Gamespot review (Gamespot is owned by Fandom)
A sidebar you can't remove that promotes their content
Fandom hijacked the community's Mcdonald's wiki to turn it into a giant advertisement
Accounts that are 4 days old can bypass restrictions and easily vandalize pages
Fandom sometimes introduces things nobody wants, such as AI generated answers that are usually wrong, take up the top half of the page, and with no way for wiki admins to remove it. They removed it after a lot of backlash but still...
When people fork their wikis to other sites, fandom refuses to let admins delete their old wikis. This makes new wikis difficult to start because Fandom usually ends up as the top result on search engines, even if they're old abandoned wikis.
Fandom seems like my experience on Fextralife
And then you learn about Fextra's embedded twitch player that artificially inflates their twitch view count and pushes out smaller content creators who are actually trying to engage with a game's audience.
God, I hate constantly seeing their channel with 50k+ views on Twitch. It's insane that embedding the player throughout their entire website isn't against TOS.
The good thing is that they are going to stop abusers of the embed system like Fextralife, the new policy was announced at TwitchCon https://blog.twitch.tv/en/2023/10/20/everything-we-announced-at-twitchcon-las-vegas/
You can block the element behind the player with the UBlock Origin element picker and it won't comeback. I took the time to build this into my UBlock filters list since I regularly use their shitty WotR Wiki. I would kill for a good WotR Wiki.
Thank you
Seems like on that last one someone could go through and change all the content in every page to a link to the new wiki. A PIA? Certainly, but at least it would get the ball rolling and use the built up SEO from fandom to help your new site get views.
Unfortunately they just use a bot to revert those. You're not allowed to truly migrate off fandom, all you can do is fork your own data and try to out-SEO the fandom wiki, because as soon as you put it.on fandom, fandom owns it too.
I wonder if you could use a bot and AI to write fake information and post that instead. Seems like fandom wouldn't have enough game specific info to judge the accuracy, especially if it happened over time.
Oh yeah... Gamespot, that place existed and it was terrible always. Then you look at the other things Gamespot own and realize they all got butchered in terms of reliability and impact.
When the OG crew left, so did I.
You're the best, thanks
What can we do with this information, I wonder...
The video also calls out that one of the challenges in moving off of fandom is SEO. The fandom sites often are above the new sites even when the fandom site becomes a pile of unmaintained, vandalized garbage. This suggests that vandalism actually helps fandom.
The best thing we can do is not visit the sites and don't link to them, instead using and linking to their new sites.
Nice write-up, I appreciate it
Worst TL;DR:
Fandom is a wiki farm, meaning it hosts a bunch of wikis. Also they run on freely available software mediawiki.
Fandom has a couple main problems:
Barriers to entry are super low, verification for users takes place 4 days post account creation, with no other steps needed by the user. Paired with the limited options that moderators have for editing access on wikis and you have a wiki that is much tougher to moderate.
Ads. Fandom is for-profit. And that means super obtrusive ads that we've come to expect. But fandom also shoved ads in the middle of wiki pages, with admins having no control of where those should be placed. There's also the matter of sketchy ads that are served to minors. Also, some of the ads are outdated but are for subsidiary companies of Fandom.
The Grimace Incident. Basically Fandom took over and turned the McDonald's and grimace wikis into huge advertisements, wiping out the hard work that the actual wiki maintainers did. They also put in a bunch of factually incorrect information, literally going against the whole purpose of a wiki and really worrying other wikis, because what's stopping Fandom from getting paid again and repeating the event with their wikis?
I'm sure I glossed over a bunch of the details but that's the best I can do from memory.
How about an alternative Link to the same video? https://inv.vern.cc/watch?v=qcfuA_UAz3I
How do you find these? You search alternative video players or is there some site where you enter a youtube url and it gives you alternatives?
Personally I use a browser extension called LibRedirect.
It is called individious, there are many hosts you can choose from. In any instance, a youtube link you paste in the search bar gives you that video in individious. If a certain video is not working, you can use “Switch Individious Instance” to quickly jump to another.
Where’s that bot w the fedi links for videos?
Be the change you want to see.
You want me to be pipedbot ?
Yes, integrate yourself with the digital world! Translate the videos for us!
Stop using Fandom
Why?
Sorry, that's the best summary I could come up with
Did you stop using YouTube because of the intrusive ads and monetization?
Same issue with Fandom.
Tbh mainly because of dumb content. I grew up with free TV so i understand and can life with some ads if the content can be used for free. Also tbh i still sometimes use it for music and that one video gaming magazine's channel that i really like.
I feel like I've become somehow allergic to youtubers and such.
summarize.tech
I loath this site. It’s rarely loads well and the images never load for me. And it’s always so slow. It’s probably because I have an adblocker.
It is slower without the adblocker since it waits for the ads to load if they are not blocked.
I have been preaching abandoning it for YEARS. It's even worse on mobile because the formating is so messed up some links just don't work. And even without adblock, there's so many ads that THEY slow down the site. Just because it's 'free' everyone defaults to fandom and I hate it so much
I think the Doom community successfully avoided fandom.
What’s to stop someone else from scraping their site and hosting a better one? I’ve never heard of anyone who actually likes Fandom.
Minecraft just moved to an official site recently
Terraria (and also most of the bigger terraria mods) is another big one that moved off of fandom a while ago. Wiki.gg is so much better.
I've found the best way to browse Fandom(if necessary) is to use a VPN set to Nordic countries. Ads are very generic and in a language I can't read. So they are very easy to spot.
Why not use Breezewiki?
Better yet: Try the Indie Wiki Buddy extension. It serves 2 purposes:
I use it in combination with wiki.gg redirect, which redirects to newer wikis which aren’t independent, but moved to wiki.gg from fandom.Update: IndieWikiBuddy can now redirect to Wiki.gg wikis too, no need for wiki.gg redirect.
My easy solution, whenever I land on a fandom page, is to add "anti" in front of the domain name, "antifandom" will filter out the crep out of the original page and present a clean version of the wiki. This is powered by BreezeWiki
Example:
edit: typo, added example
That's really cool!
Not watching a YT video.
Anyone got a synopsis?
Fandom is for-profit and making their service ever more shitty in pursuit of that. Use https://getindie.wiki/
Or maybe check other comments in this thread
It's called enshittification
Thanks for the trendy buzzword :D
Didn't know nerd at DEFCON can create a trendy buzzword. Wonderful time we live in, isn't it?
It's a shoe-in for Merriam Webster's word of the year, I reckon.
I don't know why you're being downvoted, now you say it I'm like 99% sure we're gonna see "ensh*ttification" on the poll this year
Search Cory Doctorow if you wanna know what that term really means.
Thank you, I already watched his talk on DEFCON.
You could always use Invidious or Piped (instance list here) to avoid using YT directly if you want. You won't get any ads or anti-adblocker bullshit with Invidious, so I usually use that. I'm not sure about Piped, but it seems good too. Unless your point is to simply stop using YT for anything, in which case just ignore what I said.
EDIT: To the now 8 of you who downvoted me, just, why? No, seriously, why. If you downvote me, please at least tell me why you are instead of downvoting and leaving. It makes me anxious to think that I was a dick or spreading misinformation or just being rude and not even noticing it, and would much rather have someone say something to me so I can at least know what people don't like. That's not to say I would agree with it, I might not, but I'd rather know what the problem is so I can agree or disagree.
I think it's the fact that not everything needs a 20 minute video. There's a lot of topics that I'm interested in but skip because I don't have 20, 30, 40, 60 minutes for it.
That makes sense. I just thought he had something against Youtube (and for good reason), since he only said "Not watching a YT video" instead of "Not watching a 20min video".
I agree with the premise; fandom sucks. But does it really require a 20 minute exposé though?
I've seen a few links to the Indie Wiki Buddy extension page. I'm not too interested in installing a browser extension to find new wikis, but I bookmarked their listing page: https://getindie.wiki/listings/
An extension called Indie Wiki Buddy can also help with this by helping direct you to known alternatives to fandom for specific franchises or falling back to Breezewiki-based instances that rehost Fandom content without all of the Fandom bloat. It also provides this filtering and hinting to search results too, so you don't have to change your workflow too much to use it.
TLDR; Fandom has a lot of QAnon articles written to make the scams seem legitimate to less computer savvy people.
My mom has fallen in a Qanon conspiracy world. The people from that world write Fandom articles about themselves to make it seem legitimate. I found them when I started investigating these people trying to convince her to steer clear.
I don’t trust a single thing on Fandom anymore.
I've always advocated against using Fandom. Not much customization and so many ads it makes the platform downright unusable.
A much better alternative is Wiki.gg, created by some of the original founders of Fandom.
Great suggestion, thanks.
You might have heard of alternative frontends to services such as YouTube (Piped, Invidious), X/Twitter (Nitter), etc.
Something similar exists for Fandom: Breezewiki. This instance seems to occasionally result in errors, other instances seem to work more reliable.
Mfw you want to check some quick Minecraft details and you get a pop up then half your screen covered with one video. Thank heavens that they created minecraft.wiki as a wiki is basically essential for playing that game.
Okay, I will stop using the thing I have never used once in my life
You probably did use it if you're a nerd under its old name, Wikia, back before it got enshittified.
Fandom hosts a lot of wikis for long forgotten nich'e games and with these games there usually isn't enough interest to move to another wiki. When it comes to these wikis theres rarely if ever a team behind updating the wiki and more often than not the content is just being updated and maintained by random invidividuals who just happen to be engaging with the content at given time. The very low barrier of entry makes this possible as you don't really need to join a team to edit pages or even coordinate with other people.
When playing one of these games I like to record and share some my observations and findings about games mechanics etc but more often than not the only wiki I can find is fandom wiki that is either incomplete and possibly even abandoned. I cant be bothered to create my own Wiki for these games so I'll just start editing that one instead because it's easy, the foundation is usually already there and I don't need to bother taking any sort of responsibility/mantle of maintainer or admin.
While Fandom may not be the most optimal choice and there may be better ways to host wiki out there its still better than some obnoxious google document or poorly formatted steam guide that no one else can edit.
The reason you often cannot find smaller wikis is because this site killed them off.
All too common within attention economy for people to go for the more popular choice.
Search engine algorithms tend to make things even worse.
But there are games out there that might not even have wikis if Fandom didn't make the barrier of entry so low.
What games are so small as to not be capable of generating a non fandom wiki, but are large enough that the wiki is not completely empty and factually incorrect?
Well old games like The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing: Final Cut or Moero Chronicles.
Neither of these where completely empty when I found them. Been updating them and filling some gaps in the wiki for the fun of it.
Many would consider both of these games "dead" by many metrics but people can still buy them, play them and have fun with them.
And wiki.gg wouldnt host them?
The problem is that the content is already in wiki fandom and there are no contributors invested/interested enough to migrate all the information to alternative wiki. These fandom wikis have no teams just random individuals making contributions of various sizes.
If I do ever get invested enough to a game to actually create a wiki I'll definately use something else than fandom.
..... Didnt you just say you made those 2 examples? Or did I misread
Quoting what I said in earlier reply:
I have not created any wikis myself I've just contributed to few that I've found which unfortunately have been hosted on fandom.
Ah, I did misread.
Pretty sure wiki.gg has a wiki port request, so the fandom versions can be moved
no such thing as ethical consumption under capitalism.
we have to use a decentralized open alternative (like lemmy) to take back control, switching to a proprietary solution by yet another company will only delay the problem further.
Or we could just... host our own wikis. There's plenty of open source software for them. It's not hard. Not everything needs to be federated.
that was my suggestion, sort of.
it can be bigger than that too ofc.
which unfortunately still require capital to run
of course it does.
and better if that capital comes from a network of companies/volunteers instead of one monolithic corporation that can just bully everyone into their will.
There was a time, long ago, where companies actually cared about their customers, and wanted to sell them good products while making a profit, and they strived for the win - win, and the "customer is always right" philosophy. They took their fair share, and they didn't triy to squeeze every last dime out of their customers with crappy products.
Not that that they were saints by any stretch of the imagination (there were definitely bad players back then too) but there used to be a sense of ethics with Capitalism, in America at least, a sense of products being warrantied to work the way they should be and advertised as how they would actually work.
I have no effing idea how to get back to that state, as it seems like the "lunch for wimps" crowd are running the c-suites these days.
No way of going back to that state unless we start from scratch, power is too consolidated as it is. And capitalism would soon evolve back to something like this eventually anyway.
We are on late stage capitalism now, as predicted by Marx.
e: also those better times werent that good either if you werent white/from somewhere rich, not long ago kids were working in coal mines.
Regulation. Take the money out of governing, both national government and private directors. If someone makes decisions that affect many people, make that person accountable, either through a competitive market or a functioning justice system.
The problem is that the fantastically efficient tool that is capitalism will try to increase it reach as much as possible. Killing competition and undermining laws will always be the end goal, so long as they are in anyway allowed.
The reason companies used to care is because not caring drove customers to the competition. But then there was no competition, and the care evaporated. As long as they are allowed, they will take. Civility can only be guaranteed if profits are on the line.
food?
Nestle.
We can't just get out of capitalism, but you can work to improve your situation. If you have a yard, grow a garden.
Also, see if there's a mutual aid group in your area, and if not consider talking with your neighbors about what you can do to help each other out. One person might be good with car Maintanance. Another might be a good gardener. Everyone can contribute something.
Gardening will not solve the climate crisis because it won't offset the millions of tons of co2 being emitted.
It would help, sure, but we have to radically change production to stop it. Currently the rich own those, so the best we can do short of removing them is plead.
Also yes, you can't just get rid of capitalism, history shows it takes years/decades of planning and organizing. Start as soon as possible because I don't think we have all that much time.
Where did I say it would solve the climate crisis? I was just having an alternative to capitalism to provide some of your food. Of course it won't dismantle capitalism or save the world. People have been gardening forever, yet here we are. It's just a step you can take to take some control over your situation back.
Never said I would'nt do it either. I'd love to grow my own food over pesticide garbage we have in supermarkets here. I just don't have any land at all, and there isnt any in a pretty big radius around me.
That's fair. Most people don't. You can probably still grow some food if you have access to a balcony even. It won't be much, but it can offset some of your reliance on purchasing it.
Also, again, look into mutual aid groups around you. There may be someone who does have space for a garden and produces more than they can consume. Maybe you have some skill or ability that could help them and get some food in return.
I got special Stylish CSS blocking half the shit on Fandom. IDK about any politics about them but the site is borderline unusable.
Whats the alternative?
Aside from self-hosting your own wiki, https://wiki.gg/ seems to be the popular option. Terraria's official wiki is now https://terraria.wiki.gg/ and it's great.
The main WoW wiki has moved to wiki.gg too :)
I’ve also used miraheze (https://miraheze.org)
Independent wikis for those media franchises that have them.
Does this mean self-hosting the wiki?
Because that increase the barrier of entry by tenfold as a lot of publishers/game studios do not host their own wikis.
Or use a wiki host that's not affiliated with Fandom.
But they did buy out Gamepedia too...
for Minecraft, minecraft.wiki
for others i don't know, some will have alternatives and others won't...
Unless the game your playing made their own, or someone else decided to self host and actually fill it with content (and finding it can be a pain), there isn't one.
Hoping someone knows a good fallout wiki, I hate using fandom, but it's the only one I can find with good info.
Self-hosting using MediaWiki
Regarding SEO, What's stopping maintainers from vandalizing their own fandom page?
It would not be difficult to make a bot to update fandom page with a convincing but slightly wrong info, after a few hundred iterations, it's all useless. Go look at what google recommend and do complete opposite. I'm convinced this will bomb ranking and put whatever wiki they migrated to at the top.
The disinformation doesn't really matter. The fandom wiki's naturally become incorrect over time, since they're typically no longer maintained after a community switches, so vandalizing it after the fact won't really change anything. For Path of Exile, it took the developers linking to the new wiki, and about two years of the community sending new players to the correct wiki, before it even started to show up in searches. Even then, I believe the fandom wiki still shows up first if you look at some of the very old entries.
UESP has also been the best information resource for Elder Scrolls since forever but that doesn't stop Fandom's Elder Scrolls Wiki from being the first result if you Google "Dunmer".
Misinformation may reduce repeat visit, that part, I have no idea if google take into account when they rank the result. Domain/page age also plays a role. But what about other "problems"? If I try to de-optimize every items on that guide, will it speed up the de-rank as well?
For just about every single pokemon fan game I play, the fandom wiki pages have pretty much been utter garbage. Either they're out of date, contain almost no useful info, or have a slew of other problems making it as painful as falling in a bunch of cacti. Same for most other ones I used to visit.
Will admit, Pokemon Empire having their own site for their fan game is still infinitely better than the fandom pages for it.
Does serebii.net or bulbapedia only cover the original franchise games? Just curious. Haven't played a Pokémon game in a long time.
I think bulbapedia cover just about any official content as far as I'm aware, so long as it's licensed or made by nintento directly. Anything from the games to the anime to the trading cards to things like obscure licensed Japanese arcade games based on the franchise.
Don't know if serebii does all that or if it just focuses on the games since I don't use it.
Honestly, fuck Fandom. Do we have a Fediverse alternative?
Why would we need a fediverse alternative 😂 unless you want to go around editing wikis with your mastodon account, wikis are basically just static webpages. It's called HTML 😂
Wikis like Fandom typically make it easy/easier to create and edit pages. Wiki editors are rare and you want to make it as easy for them to latch onto helping and volunteering as is possible.
Maybe a fediverse option isn't needed (though the below comment's point about having a central account would make it easier for a lot of users), but having a convenient and easy way to create a wiki for your favorite fandom, without using Fandom would go a long way toward breaking Fandom's hold over the entertainment sections of the internet.
I, for one, would be totally cool having a single account to do everything online as long as it had really good security. 🤷🏻♂️
Believe it or not, Wikipedia actually does use a single global account for all of its wikis. That includes Wikipedia, Wiktionary, Wikimedia Commons, and almost every other site listed on their website. The only one you have to create a separate account for is their test wiki where they test new versions of MediaWiki (the software they develop for their wikis).
Fandom was founded by Jimmy wales, who its current CEO. He is the cofounder of Wikipedia, so that's a bit ironic.
Jimmy Wales actually isn't as directly involved in Wikipedia as he once was. These days, he only holds the chair emeritus and the founder's seat on the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees.
His chair position changed to a chair emeritus in 2006, and the site implemented the unified login feature in May 2008, though they'd been discussing implementing the feature since 2005.
Just use dokuwifi or media wiki or any of the already made OSS self-hosted solutions...
There's Fossil which is a version control system with a wiki, so you can just straight up fork and mirror existing wikis.
I learned about this plug in the other day. Indie Wiki Buddy. It's not a fediverse alternative, but it's the next best thing. It can redirect your Fandom results to their independent alternatives.
Given the criticism of Fandom, why not use a Piped link instead of YT? It's like criticizing YT on YT.
YT isn't fandom-level bad.
It's certainly heading in that direction
I don't seem to run into a lot of Hollow Knight fans around here yet so I popped over to the HK community on that other website. Confirm: this video is one of the top trending on YouTube today lol. I figured, mossbag is...shall we say a very well-known figure in the community, if you're not in the know.
I absolutely still rely on the wiki for HK shit I can't remember like boss HP scaling and where tf was that last item I need for that one upgrade god dammit?? Glad to see them move to somewhere independent. Will donate.
I used to have the app, but that was ad galore. Now when I browse it, usually for some book series, with firefox and some ad blockers, it's perfectly fine to read and browse. So I don't really get the hate, but that might be because I don't usually browse it for new content, but as a reference for finished series, like the wheel of time.
Another comment without watching so I might be repeating something in the video, but did they mention how poor bloated the site is? I was trying to use the Forgotten Realms wiki and after a few tabs it would grind my browser to a halt. For something that really just needs to be serving text and a few images it's wild how badly the site performs.
Yah. Fandom is an Adblock-required site. And even then it's pretty hard to browse.
Who knows of a good Final Fantasy wiki?
I wish I could, but I like browsing Logopedia which is hosting on Fandom and has announced no plans to leave the site. If they did, I'd completely abandon that place and block everything that has to do with them.
And no, it's not easy to migrate a database of hundreds of thousands of logos to another wikifarm, especially if new stuff arrives all the time.
Saw this yesterday. Great video that informed me on something I was completely oblivious to. Fuck fandom
I only use it for WoWpedia, because it has a lot of information from years ago. I still remember when they added so many unnecessary interface elements and the website became slower. Luckily, I found https://userstyles.world/style/5722/clean-fandom-wiki, which made it usable again.
The wow wiki has recently moved to wiki gg and they ported everything over so definitely Check it out!
Thanks! Didn't know they tried to leave fandom for a while. https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Warcraft_Wiki
The biggest insult is that Jimbo Wales of Wikipedia helped create fandom because he was fed up of people using Wikipedia to create detailed articles about fictional characters and video games. Wikipedia now has an artificially strict notability policy where things are falsely declared as not notable so they can be monetized on Fandom, all while Jimbo Wales has the gall to ask for money for his "non profit" Wikipedia while he makes the real money on Fandom.
I'd be very curious to hear more details on this, do you happen to have a source handy, or any recommended reading?
In fairness, the money he gets from being a scumbag with fandom probably can't be used to fund Wikipedia unless he wants to donate the money he's making from his business to run his nonprofit. It's not surprising he wouldn't do that (even if thats the way the world ought to work) and I don't presently have reason to believe he personally gets anything out of the donations that are given to keep Wikipedia running
I love hearsay and dramatic "quotations".
If this is real I'll be genuinely glad I haven't donated to wikipedia yet.
I mean the conspiracy theory side of it is questionable but the basic facts are true:
Wikipedia has a policy against non-notable things. They were always embarrassed by the fact that every detailed version of every Pokemon had its own page, whereas the pages for important historical events were stubs. The WP:Notability standard has been the bane of every garage band and open-source game and DVD extra that was booted off the site because trivia cannot meaningfully be checked, trivia that otherwise allows hoax articles to live on.
Jimbo Wales decided to profit off of the desire to create fan-encyclopedias or even complete nonsense (like, for example, Penny Arcade's Elemenstor Saga wiki, which details the history of a novel series and anime and cardgame that never existed) by creating Wikia, the for-profit Wikipedia that had no standards about what you could put on it besides legality. Just create your own Wikia and run it with an iron fist.
Now, the question is whether he did (1) in order to drive profitable users to (2). That's where the conspiracy question lives. And I tend to assume good faith. People's morals erode over time, not all at once. Since both (1) and (2) are totally legitimate, but profit motive encourages the millimetre-by-millimetre enshittification of Wikia into the horrible thing it is today.
It doesn't seem so devious to me. He wanted Wikipedia to be considered a serious source of information which admittedly, detailed pages for video games, fictional characters and such would work against that goal. Being a non profit also works towards being taken seriously in the eyes of some.
So he created a secondary company to host that content and profit from it. Why not, I would argue. Don't use the product If you don't like it. I personally hate wikia. It's slow and covered in ads. The question I ask is why is there no competition in the space? Jimbo's not on the hook for that.
The video posted is actually all about what the competition is like :) its hard to compete with a huge company like wikia/fandom, but folks are making it work anyway, and that's pretty cool. I really enjoyed the video
Starting up wikis is so easy nowadays that there's no excuse. I maintain a few Dokuwiki-based ones, it's my preferred engine for simple wiki stuff, but Mediawiki (the same one that powers Wikipedia) is not bad either and not really too difficult, just a bit more demanding storage-wise. Heck, you can currently fire-and-forget DW-based wikis on SDF's "one payment" access tier, even! Probably on Neocities too, haven't checked.
Easy. Never heard of it. Done.
Lemmy has more niche users (read: geeks/nerds) on one site than I've ever experienced.
It's awesome, but man, I feel so out of my element. I thought I was a nerd on reddit but on lemmy I have like no idea what half of the users are talking about or consider normal. It's legit fascinating, tbh. I really wish it was possible to see the demographics of users here