Surveillance footage shows Hamas bringing hostages into Shifa Hospital on Oct. 7
timesofisrael.com
The Israel Defense Forces releases surveillance camera footage from Shifa Hospital showing Hamas terrorists bringing a Nepali and Thai citizen who were abducted from Israel on October 7 to the medical center.
Again people lose sight of the fact that regardless of hamas actions, that doesn't justify the killing of thousands of kids and families that are taking shelter in the hospital.
If anything, the medical staff and families are also hostages and they shouldn't be killed either.
People kept arguing about the tunnel and the hospital ignoring the genocidal killing of Palestinians.
Tunnels or Hamas using the biggest and maybe only hospital Doesn't justify the bombing of the hospital while people still getting treated from other bombing..
Let’s be accurate here. Thousands have died in Gaza as a result of this conflict, but Israel clearly did not kill thousands at Shifa Hospital.
You're right, the hospital bombed itself.
Hamas surrenders, releases hostages and it's done. But Hamas is the one pushing this war and they're using the suffering of their own people to push propaganda - and people like yourself support their efforts.
If Hamas surrenders, Israel will simply compete the genocide they're in the middle of.
They have literally no chance to win while causing great suffering on everyone around them.
I don't know how a sane person could advocate for HAMAS to continue their terrorist actions.
Alas Lemmy is a shitshow in this regard. Not sure if Reddit is the same but the vibe here makes me barf
Nobody is supporting Hamas. They're saying that there's no justification for the genocide that Israel is engaging in.
It doesn't matter what either side has done when the response is to murder children. It's all unjustifiable.
well if an ant bite kills your mom and you go and poison bomb the whole colony, then the surviving ants come bite and kill your dad. are you gonna just let the ants keep killing your family or are you gonna poison bomb the whole colony again
this is just an analogy (works for the nukes in japan too) at this point both sides are shitty and idek how to have a take about it anymore.
Yes let’s reduce this conflict to ant extermination, can’t see any problem with that analogy…
as far as analogies go, comparing Palestinians to ants to be exterminated is a bit too on the nose, don't you think?
then lets convert it to people then instead of ants
or is that hitting too close to home
Reddit is a Zionist mouthpiece.
Put yourself in Hamas miltant shoe. Mostly now had lost family members, living since born in a prison, you cannot go to sea, or cross to Egypt or even other part of the country.
What do you think Winning means for them ?
I guess for me it would mean to have at least some of my family members survive instead of dying pointlessly
They're going to die pointlessly regardless of what they do. While I disagree with what they're doing. I can't exactly fault them for feeling powerless and lashing out. When people have nothing to lose. They don't care how much anyone else loses either. And the Israeli government has the largest part of the blame on this. They helped Hamas come to power and use them extensively to justify their genocide. They don't want Hamas to stop.
I think we should totally fault them for committing acts of terrorism. It does nothing to advance their cause.
While the Israeli government has fucked up, too, they are the one of the two parties that historically at least tried to negotiate a compromise.
I don't believe for a second that they want the terror to continue, they're not comic book villains. You're selling your opinion as facts.
Netanyahu's own cabinet has literally said on video that Hamas is an asset to them. Those are the facts. Netanyahu and his ministers have also done a lot to help Hamas as well. Mind you, I'm not defending Hamas. Fuck hamas. Palestine is not Hamas however. Most the people living in Gaza never voted for Hamas. And don't support Hamas. And would love to get rid of Hamas. But they don't have the power to. The people that have the power to would rather come in and slaughter innocent citizens of Gaza under pretense of going after Hamas. Creating more Hamas and the process rather than actually getting rid of Hamas. These are the facts. Netanyahu's government's actions are indefensible.
When the so-called rescue response has killed multiple times more than the initial terror attack. It is a terror attack in its own right.
It is certainly better to kill Israeli soldiers than it is to not kill them. Peace has been tried for over 30 years, but Israel has refused. It's about time Palestine started fighting back. Genociders do not listen to anything short of warfare and terrorism.
Israel has refused? Israel is the one side that negotiated and offered multiple solutions to the conflict lmao
Yeah, any solution that isnt "Israel gives back the land they stole and stops genociding Gaza".
Dude what are you on about? Israel offered land.
If you think what Hamas is doing now is the better course you're just absolutely deluded
What land did they offer, and when? Was it even one thenth of the land they've stolen since the 1960s?
As opposed to the heavy resistance Hamas is currently putting up?
If Israel wanted a genocide they could easily accomplish it. They clearly do not. This entire line of argumentation is beyond stupid.
they haven't actually bombed al shifa, or any hospital for that matter.
Can we yet dispense with the fiction that hamas is fighting some just war?
Hiding behind civilians and intentionally using their deaths as propaganda is terrible.
Also, free palestine, fuck hamas, fuck likud, fuck Iran, and fuck Russia.
I don't think anyone is saying the war is just but rather relatable. If someone occupied my country, killed my family and took my family land I can't say I'd react any different.
You'd sneak into their villages and go door to door killing thousands of innocent people in their homes? And do the same to young people at a music festival?
I think we can all relate to resistance, but this is something else.
The protagonists in the Old Testament do exactly that more than once with less provocation, and millions of people still consider them the good guys. Israel's PM in particular has specifically cited one of them as a model to emulate. Look up his comment about Amalek.
So yes, a lot of people would do that, and the people in charge of this massacre in particular would definitely do that given a chance. Or, you know, you can look at the fact that they basically are doing that right now, just with bombs rather than small arms.
You know you’re on the moral high ground of relatability when your evidence comes from the fucking Old Testament. Like when your morality comes from 4000+ years ago, wow, that’s some good shit right there. Hold my beer, I’m about to say that I read slavery is ok in the Old Testament. Watch as I drive down to Whole Foods with a net gun and get myself some laborers from the produce isles. It’s ok because they wear multiple kinds of cloth at the same time, and I saw one pick up a lobster so he can definitely be my chattel. There goes one holding hands with his partner, give me a minute while I righteously smite them in the name of my lord; pour out some salt for them!
Man, you suck at reading comprehension. I'm using the Old Testament as an example of what people believe, not a source of factual information. You understand those are different things, right?
Dude you suck at reading comprehension because that’s exactly what I addressed in my comment. If one’s belief system is actually based in or otherwise aligned with the Old Testament, their opinion is invalid and they are morally bankrupt.
The Old Testament is so fucking brutal and devoid of morality, that 2000 years ago people started Christianity just to get away from its brutality; that was literally the appeal of jesus. To say “god did a take back and the world doesn’t have to be so brutal”.
A. Isrealis have been doing that for the better part of 50 years.
B. Sure, that's abborant but yeah I think we can all picture being so frustrated and stuck you lash out at whatever is nearby.
It's resistance, resistance has never been pretty not even when proto Israeli terrorists were bombing civilian targets in 1946 and hiding weapons and fighters in schools, hospitals and temples.
u call raping women and burning babies a "resistance"?
Yep I’m sure that’s what they’d say. You know how the Indians drove out the British and ended their apartheid state? By shooting people at electronic music festivals and committing necrophilia and by killing babies.
Same thing in South Africa actually in the 80s: they killed white babies, and shot white South Africans at electronic music festivals.
Oh and don’t forget Martin Luther King Jr. in the USA. He actually personally attended electronic music festivals and killed his fellow Americans, regularly. He had a huge kill-count. The tunnels he dug beneath hospitals are fucking legendary, all school children learn of his wanton murder during the civil rights movement, and we venerate him for it. Every chance he got, he called for the extermination of white people, and of Jews, and of Asian people too. That’s how he became a fucking hero. Never tried to unite people together, not even once. Americans are so fucking proud that he sewed division and hate, and killed people all the damn time. That’s why he has a street in every single major city in the USA and in other places too.
You'd become a hardline religious extremist, torture your own people, and massacre civilians in cold blood?
Weird thing to admit to man.
I'm not religious so no, and I made no mention of religion. Israel was forged by hard-line religious extremists as well but is technically a secular nation.
You should look into every revolution on earth, 98% of which will include religious extremists. Your point is idiotic, the American revolution had religious extremists lol.
Hamas is explicitly a jihadist regime. Do you... not know that?
I do know that. I don't think it matters the reason they're fighting if it's the same effect either way.
?????
You're being tedious. You know what I meant and notably hamas is not the only dog in this fight buddy. The narrative is it's hamas because they're religious extremists and it tends to discount the fact that regardless of their intent or reasoning the effect is the save, armed defense of Gaza. Without hamas the place would have been annexed 30 years ago.
I'm not being tedious. You specifically said you'd join Hamas. That's what Hamas is. If you want to say something differently, just say different words.
Without Hamas there would literally be a Palestinian state, and it would be a secular state, and I know this because this is the reason Hamas exists.
They seized power and canceled elections forever specifically because Palestinians were going to be their own secular state, and Israel would exist. They find that unacceptable. Just like the entire reason for the October attacks was Israel normalizing relations with Saudi Arabia.
These things are not secrets or opinions man. This is history.
You are, meaning by context is a thing. I did not specifically say I'd join hamas, hyperbole is absurd when there's an objective record just above your comment.
Not at all, there's good evidence that Israel was always writing against that namely the Israeli government paying hamas and letting them thrive so long as they took out targets beneficial to right wing Israelis.
By which you mean "people who want a two state solution and a secular Palestine."
And yes, you do mean that's because that's who they fucking targeted.
You're so against Israel that you're back to rooting for a shitter Palestine.
Yes because we all know you end a terrorist organization but providing them funds they can then use to buy weapons and fighters? Weird plan bud.
You clearly don't know what I mean bud, and it kinda seems like you're not paying attention.
I'm against both lol.
shows u have no clue what ur talking about. Israel wasn't forged by religion extremists, on contrary. I will never understand people like u who talk with such confidence about matters they have no clue about.
Where is Gaza's military allowed to be?
Certainly not at Israeli music festivals
Well, what was "Gaza's military" doing outside of Gaza committing torture, rape, infanticide and murder on 1,200 civilians?
How many Gaza civilians does Israel get to kill in retaliation?
100? 1000? 2000? 5000? 10,000? We’re still not at the actual number that have been killed just since Oct 7th, by the way. If killing 1200 Israelis is bad why is killing 15,000 Palestinians just shit that happens that everyone should just get over?
cuz idf isn't going out of their way to kill civilians. else they would've levelled gaza instantly.
With their current numbers they would need to kill 3 million Palestinians in Gaza to wipe out Hamas.
There are 2.2 million in Gaza.
They're actual doing worse than possible.
You’re just lying. Not even Israel claims Hamas killed 1200 civilians. That number includes active duty military and police.
Trying to break the walls of their open air prison thats killing everyone inside.
And bear in mind the reports of torture and rape are just accusations from an occupying military.
Hamas murdered 1,200 civilians in Israel.
If you think that's just fine in order to reach some abstract goal, you really have no leg to stand on complaining about the IDF killing civilians inside Gaza.
Its abstract to you, because youre not gonna let the plight of gazans be a real thing that matters to you. But its very real, well before this recent assault. A humanitarian crisis for hundreds of thousands of people short on food, water, and shelter due to Israeli military oppression
Hamas is not fighting for the "plight of Gazans" - they're on record saying that the Palestinians are not their responsibility.
That's probably why they don't give a fuck if their rockets detonate and explode in Gaza, killing hundreds of Palestinians. That's probably why they launch rockets from hospitals and schools. That's probably why they hide weapons production facilities next to places of worship. That's probably why they shoot Palestinians who are trying to evacuate. That's probably why they abduct, imprison, torture and murder Palestinians who they perceive to be enemies. That's probably why they close down, shutter and burn down Palestinian coffee shops, hotels, shops, water parks, and entertainment venues out of "religious concerns."
Really, you're assuming that Hamas is fighting for the Palestinians, but all evidence points to the exact opposite.
They're a terrorist organization that murders people in cold blood, and they rule over Gaza in a reign of terror.
Sorry this is a barrage of accusations i dont have the time to try and dig through myself. I tried searching for them closing down coffee shops and found nothing, and them claiming no responsibility for palestinians and only found an israeli news article. Im dubious of the rest of the claims
I understand.
You're trying to defend the massacres committed by Hamas as legitimate self-defense. You're trying to defend Hamas as a bunch of freedom fighters protecting Palestinian civilians.
Of course you're not going to look up evidence that Hamas has been making Palestinians' lives miserable. That would run counter to that narrative.
and if it's true?
Neither was Lehi and now they're officially part of the IDF, you know the terrorist group.
All of these things are the exact same thing Israel did in mandatory Palestine including using schools, hospitals and temples to store weapons and fighters. Their terror organizations murdered people for religious concerns and quite honestly still do.
And yet lehi and similar were the same but are now praised as freedom fighters.
You could say the same if the idf dude, they literally absorbed about a half dozen terrorist organizations into the idf as an official matter with commendations for attacks that killed civilians.
Why do you simp for one or the other, they're both dogshit.
They didn't, isreali police say that number is lower and includes IDF dead and IDF friendly fire incident.
Yes, they corrected the number down to 1,200.
They originally assumed that it was 1,400 dead civilians, but identifying mangled and burned bodies is apparently taking a while.
Ah the same time, the number of dead at the festival has been corrected from an estimate of 200 to at least 350.
Hamas built that prison, when they tried to overthrow the Jordanian and Egyptian governments while also calling for the genocide of Israel.
There's a reason people are stuck in Gaza and that reason is entirely Hamas.
Gaza or specifically Hamas controlled Gaza doesn't have a military, they're quite literally banned from having one.
Can you get me a definition for military that Hamas doesnt fall under? Theyre definitely armed forced of a country.
They're a military force, they aren't a standing military but difference.
You, me, and the guy i was responding to said military
Yes, my point is they're not allowed in Gaza at all, weapons are technically illegal there and if Israel catches you with one you're pretty likely to be shot or rapidly made multipart.
This is goddamn insane, imagine Russia trying to tell Ukraine theyre not allowed to have a military. Of course the genociders dont want their victims armed. Tell Israel theyre not allowed to have a military
Hamas militants have tried to overthrow or commit genocide against literally every surrounding nation. Hamas made their bed, quite intentionally.
Do you always lie when you have no arguments left to justify ethnic cleansing?
Lol how do you not know about this? Might want to look up Egypt and Jordan's experiences with Hamas
I’m well aware of the history of Hamas and their relationships with neighboring countries and organizations.
That’s why I know you’re just lying. Back up your claims with sources instead of pretending I don’t know any better.
So a whopping 2 hostages on the day of the attack, of which one was critically injured, which was more than a month ago.
Definitely Hamas HQ confirmed. Was worth all that civilian collateral to capture.
At least they finally got some footage so we don't have to rely on some crappy IDF PS1 graphics renders.
There are more than two hostages. They've already found one of the previous hostages dead near the hospital grounds.
Wait until more footage comes through
A dead person near a hospital?!? Say it ain't so doc, people can't die at hospitals of all places. Everyone knows Dairy Queen is the place to take a hostage for medical care.
That person was one of the hostages. don't you find that a little suspicious that one of the hostages was found dead outside the hospital grounds?
If a hostage is injured where would you take them? The supermarket? There's a lot of odd shit going on but injured people taken to the hospital is not it.
They drove past multiple hospitals to get to this one because this one is where their main tunnel base was.
Much smaller ones without trauma wards on the same par. They've been fighting a war with Israel for decades, they know which hospitals are the best and which ones have Israeli sympathizers as well. Why exactly they chose that hospital we do not know but what we can say is so far the evidence of a centre of gravity are extremely weak.
Ed: similarly they've shown one unbooby trapped, unguarded tunnel without tons of boot prints. And moreover the video is not off anything being cleared and has it's location removed.
They know which ones have the best access to their tunnel network.
It's hilarious you're trying to suggest they were taking people to the hospital altruisticly. That's so far from reality it's not even worth an argument.
The tunnel network that's so vast Israel refuses to share gpr data, video with location, allow third party inspection... So on so forth.
There's no evidence to suggest otherwise dude.
Lmao ok.
Glad you agree.
I think your comments are too dumb to merit responses.
i generally also drive past hospitals that dont deal with detached legs when my leg is detached
... How often does your leg detatch?
More often when I'm in an occupied nation currently at war.
Oh, so literally never, and this entire conversation is bullshit, and you're only having it because you support the genocide of Israel.
Got it.
can you explain in detail how the detachability of my leg implies any particular stance for this non-existent genocide of israel
if anything, itd make standing fairly difficult
Your support of Hamas does. Your leg detachability is just a fun device to lighten the mood of the conversation
Mm, there's that assumption.
Do I have a right leg sir?
Genocide of Israel lol, ideals kill ten times as many citizens and they're at risk, uh huh.
thats funny, i was under the impression that 'outside hospital grounds' distinctly does not mean 'on hospital grounds'
Definetly worth the collatral and the casulties. Hiering a hitman doesent make you inoccent.
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/times-of-israel/
Bias Rating: LEFT-CENTER
Factual Reporting: HIGH
Country: Israel
Press Freedom Rank: MODERATE FREEDOM
Media Type: Website
Traffic/Popularity: High Traffic
MBFC Credibility Rating: HIGH CREDIBILITY
This needs to be a bot, this is great context around the media outlets.
It's really not. MBFC is run by a single guy. It's methodology is basically worthless. It's basically one dude's opinion on what news sources he likes to read.
What do we know about that guy? Not much. He happens to share the same name as a very prominent lawyer/professor, which makes finding details about him very challenging.
Quit spreading FUD. It’s not just one guy, the founder has a whole team listed on the website and a clear methodology. It’s in the about section.
You’re just salty because the website isn’t super pro Chinese Communist Party.
Have you looked at their methodology? It wouldn't pass a basic university-level writing course.
These are the guys that instantly posted the MRI machine weapons and the calendar. They're just an IDF propaganda source nothing credible about them.
it's funny that u think IDF knows or care about lemmy
I'm talking about "the times of israel" which is straight up a right wing israeli propaganda site. Nothing credible about them
Ah my bad. If I may ask just out of curiosity, what sites do u consider to be "credible" and not a "propaganda sites"?
TIL bringing a wounded civilian in for treatment makes the treating hospital "terror infrastructure".
It wasn't a wounded person that was the problem.
You're going to just disagree with the IDF spokesman here?
Okay, let's say you're a cop and you have an injured prisoner but no car. You grab a vehicle off the street and bring the guy to the nearest hospital. You don't want your prisoner to escape, so you stand guard outside the room while he's getting treated, then take him into custody.
You see the problem here? In one viewpoint, it's a soldier responsibly getting treatment for a prisoner; in another viewpoint, the entire hospital complex had enemy soldiers in it at some time and therefore deserves to be razed to the ground.
Now substitute prisoner with kidnapped hostage you have no right to touch and that you most likely shot yourself.
Yes perception is a thing, way to rephrase their point in a much dumber way.
And yet that still doesn't make that hospital a Hamas HQ and hence the deaths due to the IDF attack on it justified...
If some mob guy shoot some person to teach him a lesson and then brough them to the hospital, that would not in any universe make the hospital a "Mob HQ" and justify a military attack on it killing civilians and medical personnel.
The police all over the world shoot people all the time and then bring them to the hospital to get fixed. There’s nothing suspicious about it.
The wounded guy? Sure thing. But the other one didn't seem to be too injured to be taken to a hospital for treatment
They were both wounded
If you take two prisoners and don't want to split up your forces, then you bring both of them to the hospital, get the injured one treated, and take both of them away.
Dude's never broken a bone and it shows
If they're releasing surveillance footage, expect more to come out. They have already announced that Noa Marciano was executed inside the hospital - most likely on camera.
Also note that they are sharing much more with the US and EU than they are making public. It will likely include surveillance footage tagged with facial recognition of every senior Hamas member who walked through the hospital.
well this community suddenly became very quiet.
Israel's right wing is a bunch of genocidal monsters who are just as evil as Hamas but much better funded.
Happy now?
At least you are now equating Hamas to Israel in terms of morality instead of glorifying them, so that's progress
I never have. My position hasn't changed a bit.
So collateral damage is just as bad as putting a baby inside an oven?
You said that, not me.
Where is that baby In oven video you're talking about? Unless it's a video there's no way I'm trusting IDF faked phone calls.
Some Israeli "colonist" said it happened so it must be true...
i didn't know israel is beheading people with garden hoes :o
No, they're doing it with bombs. So much more civilized!
You think little children dying as their blood drains away with their limbs blown away, or their life slowly fadding as their bodies are crushed by the rubble of what moments ago was their home or being burn through till their internal organs fail in complete total panic by a piece of burning white phosporous whose fire they cannot stopped, from a round that hit their schoolyard, is any better?!
Is them being arabic-speaking muslims that makes their horrible deaths acceptable in your eyes, even while the deaths of jewish hebrew speaking children are not?!
It's really hard to see any other reason than the most disgustingly extreme psychopatic racism for somebody to justify the horrible murder of children using the murder of other children by people whose only relation is being from the same ethnic group.
Yes. It is fucking weird that you don't.
Well, at least you openly admit you think one kind of horrible deaths for children is better than a different kind.
That's pretty honest for a sociopath.
Literally everyone thinks some kinds of deaths are better than others. Dying slowly and painfully due to someone's maliciousness is generally considered among the worst.
You're weird for trying to make this some sort of gotcha.
Literally only people very high in the sociopath end of the spectrum would think one gruesome kind of child murder justifies a different kind of gruesome child murder, to the point of using one to justify the other in an argument genuinelly believing other human beings will be swayed by that.
People in the normal human range within the sociopathy spectrum neither think "an eye for an eye" applies to the murdering of children - no matter the method used - nor think other people can be swayed to accept child murder by pointing out that child murders were commited by people only related to the former children by etnicity.
In fact normal people don't even think one kind of child murder justifies the other kind of child murder even when the latter children have direct family relations to the murderers of the former.
You need to be quite the sociopath to merelly think somebody murdering children justifies killing their kids, and you need to be extremelly sociopathic to think somebody murdering children justifies killing kids of the same etnic group.
People whose psychological makeup is such that they trully believe child murder justifies child murder and, worse, that others think the same, need professional help, deseperatelly so.
A) this is quite incorrect
But more importantly
B) I never said anything justified anything
Perhaps engage with just a shred of intellectual honesty and good faith
Then what is the difference.
That question doesn't make any sense.
It does. You're saying one civilian death is different than another. So name that difference.
So you're a believer in untermensch? Amusing conflict to casually bring that up for.
Dude be real lol
Ok then why do you believe one civilian dying a torturous death is different than any other?
Because I have a functioning brain.
That's not an explanation bud that's a very obvious very pathetic dodge. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you won't explain it because it's almost certainly very bigoted.
It really hasn't, it's generic un geolocated video yet again and Israel is known to fake video. At the same time it's not at all proof of their nonsense claims.
Fake news!
I mean no, it's an unsubstantiated claim.
Waiting on their bosses for the right propaganda response
There's a bunch of pro Palestinian accounts that all only post comments about the war and joined about the same time (not at Reddit API influx). The mods should ban clear propaganda accounts
I think mods should ban any account that argues points without reputable sources to back their claims. The amount of "they bombed hospitals" without evidence is pretty staggering.
Is this according to the same Israel that called a water reservoir an "opening into the Hamas tunnels?"
The same one that released a faked video of a "nurse from al-Shifa?"
To be fair, Al Jazeera is blatantly anti-Israel, so I wouldn’t trust their analysis without other corroborating sources. Regardless, the evidence the IDF presented for that particular video was far from conclusive, so it’s certainly possible that particular entrance wasn’t to the Hamas tunnel network.
I also don’t doubt that nurse video is fake, but the source of the video is far from definitive. Many parties in this conflict benefit from muddling the waters with fake videos.
As if being anti-Israel means that Al Jazeera throws journalistic integrity into the wind? If the facts are valid, they're valid regardless of what the spin being put on them is.
UN-mandated body says Al Jazeera journalist Shireen Abu Akleh the ‘victim of the excessive and disproportionate force used by Israeli security forces’.
Gee, I sure wonder why Al Jazeera would be anti-Israel...
Bias needs to be taken into account, but it does not invalidate good reporting on its own. It’s the same reason I don’t immediately believe all statements from the IDF. They are a party in the conflict and extremely biased. They are however a valuable source of information and their claims should be considered. I would also rank the credibility of the IDF over the credibility of Hamas.
Other comment got reported, but still doesn't change the fact that you're comparing two bad sources and trying to pick one that's less bad.
If Hamas starts releasing verifiably false videos to Western audiences, then I'll discredit that too.
Are the countless numbers of staged videos not verifiably false enough for you? They literally operate a filming crew making victim propaganda.
Actually yes, that's exactly what they've done time and time again.
How, when?
Well the most obvious example is the strike on that hospital killing 500 that ended up being a failed PIJ rocket landing on the hospital parking lot killing 10-20 people.
As far as I’m aware there is no conclusive evidence that it was a PIJ rocket. You can only really believe that if you actually trust the IDF.
You rather believe Hamas that it was an Israeli rocket when all available evidence verified by multiple governments claims to the contrary?
I will believe the findings of a third party investigation which the UN has called for. The “evidence” provided by the IDF is not at all conclusive. As I said, you can’t pretend otherwise unless you trust the IDF.
Sure, just keep your blinders on and keep going. It's not like other governments corroborated that or anything. A fact you chose to clearly ignore in the comment you replied to.
So I’m supposed to believe “other governments” that you have yet to name over the UN?
US, Canada, France. I would hope so. Even better, you could have looked it up yourself.
I'm honestly confused because the original article just says Hamas was seen taking one of the hostages to the hospital. Isn't that a good thing like hey they are trying to make sure these people don't die?
Wouldn't it be better to not murder, rape and kidnap a couple thousand innocent civilians in the first place?
I mean, come on man... You're acting as if taking two kidnapped Israeli citizens to hospital overshadows how they got into that situation in the first place.
Yeah I completely agree with your sentiment your talking about both sides right? I'm saying that it makes no sense to bomb a hospital if your enemy is taking the hostages there the get healed unless you don't care about the hostages and just want to kill Palestinians.
Your point is moot as far as I'm concerned. Don't take mother fucking hostages in the first place...
Yeah I agree with both sides. You realize Israel has been arresting children simply because someone said they picked up a rock or said free Palestine. Sounds like both sides are taking hostages.
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/times-of-israel/
The dumbest part is that it says one hostage was brought to the hospital to be killed.
Bro just kill her in whatever tunnel you're in... Why drag her to the hospital?
It has been said, they brought them to treat them for injuries
Hmmm pretty sure the IDF officially made that statement
You trust the IDF after they've lied so many times?
🤣
the hostages were in the hospital that got bombed?
I hope they're okay...
Yes, they were trying to free them, obviously.
The Iranian propaganda teams aren't sure what to say yet. They must be sweating now. I'm guessing some whataboutism as counter
Hah apparently the spin is they were taken to the hospital for humanitarian reasons. After all the rape and murder the kidnappers decided to take their hostages to the hospital for treatment clearly under duress. Yep such nice guys. Definitely what they'd do.
Yeah . Because Hamas apparently were treating prisoners humanely.
I can see why humane treatment of prisoners and outsiders can seem crazy to some countries, but it is a rule of war.
Aw hell, just add it to the list of ignored rules.
This will hopefully put to rest any notion that Hamas hasn't been using civilian infrastructure as shields.
No one has been making that claim. So the only person who could lay it to rest is you. Since you're the one claiming that. Everyone knows Hamas has been using civilian shields. We're just upset about Israel committing genocide and using that as an excuse.
Y’all still haven’t read up on the Geneva convention hu.
You may be shocked to find out that the Geneva Convention is not the whole extent of most people's moral beliefs.
What do your moral beliefs tell you about how to conduct a war with zero civilian casualties?
We’d all like to know that would work.
There's a lot of fucking room between "zero civilian casualties" and the deliberat massacre that's happening now. Fuck you and your false dichotomy.
Ahh ok. Tons of military strategists on lemmy lately. Who knew it was such a prevalent profession.
Zionist, go home, you're drunk.
lol I’m an atheist from the US but ok
I get it. I'm the Pope. It ain't easy. But you should know kiddo. Two wrongs don't make a right. My buddy J.C. even says so. And I was unaware one could not be Zionist in the US. Solid logic there.
What hamas did was horrible. What Israel has done since makes that pale in comparison. Well that's not really fair. What Israel did before still made it pale in comparison. If you don't like people calling you a Zionist stop carying their water. There are no good guys involved in this conflict. Unfortunately just collateral of innocent citizens. Both Israeli and mostly Palestinian. Israel however, is the one with the power to change all this.
You can call me whatever. It literally means nothing to me lol.
Civilian deaths fucking suck but when the group you’re fighting uses them as shields, the numbers are gonna be high.
Edit: just looked up the term
https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/zionism
Huh. Looks like I’m a Zionist.
It's great and all how you can never actually address what was said. Civilian deaths could be much less while still addressing the Hamas problem. But I'm glad that you have accepted the definition as a genocidal ethno nationalist. That's what zionists are these days bubbala. And with how hard you are defending their genocidal extermination. Honestly I got to say it's very believable on you. So you should really do yourself a mitzvah and read up on things a little better.
I literally posted the definition that I’m identifying with but I guess you’re welcome to read into it. It won’t be representative of reality but I can’t stop you.
Your comments are a little hard to read though so I’m tiring of this particular thread.
Words and their meanings change over time. Composition of groups change over time as well. I have no problem with Israelis having a place in the Middle East. What I have a problem with is the far right Israeli government committing genocide. You don't have a problem with that and I understand that. But you saying that you choose to identify with the old definition. Doesn't mean much. The Nazis tried to claim they were socialist. The Chinese in the North Koreans tried to claim that they're democratic. No one believes that. Everyone understands what they are and that they're just saying that. Because what you say doesn't dictate who you are. What you do, dictates who you are. And you are defending one of the most bloodthirsty genocidal groups involved in this conflict. And I will say again fuck hamas. They are murderous deceptive and outright horrible people. But the Israeli government bears a lot of blame for bringing them to this point. Again, that does not justify Hamas or defend Hamas. It just says fuck the right wing likud government of Israel harder. For manipulating people to bring about this genocide.
And yeah I get that you don't want to continue this conversation. You have no response to any of this. Your only goal is to defend Israel. And it doesn't matter to you how bad you look because of it. You have nothing to say to change that fact. So why continue to try right?
Oh really, then why do I keep seeing it repeated on here over and over again?
Isn't it weird how nobody ever says that Hamas is committing genocide when they don't give a fuck about where their rockets explode in Gaza, when they're murdering Palestinians who are trying to evacuate, when they're using Palestinian civilians as human shields, when they're firing rockets from civilian Palestinian infrastructure, deliberately making it a military target?
Does it just not count when Hamas murders Palestinians, or how does that work?
Genocide is a focused/targeted slaying of specific groups. Hamas is murderous careless and wanton. It's not genocide. It's not good. But it's not genocide. Israel however, is largely targeting and slaughtering large portions of innocent Palestinians who've done nothing to them. Simply because Israel wants the land and wants to clear the people. Who've lived there off of it. And are simply using the terrorist attack as an excuse That's genocide.
I mean everyone hates Mondays. Let's be real here. But Monday isn't a terrorist neither is Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Sunday or Saturday.
Two wrongs don't make a right. Criticizing Israeli actions is not implicit approval of Hamas actions.
The challenge here is that Hamas are generally considered to be the bad guys. You expect the bad guys to do evil shit.
Israel is supposed to be the good guys in this scenario. Being the good guys means you are not expected to do evil shit, and are supposed to do the right thing even if it is harder. Except right now they are doing orders more magnitude evil shit than the bad guys. I don't think it is unfair to call them out on that.
They're an Appartheid state (with explicit legislation that creates special citizenship classes by religion, with the Jewish Iraeli Citizenship having more rights than the Arab Israeli Citizenship) governed by an extreme rightwing government displaying most of the traits of Fascism - Militarism, Ultra-nationalism, reckless use if violence, even rabid racism against an etnic group they describe as "animals" - and the worst kind of Fascism at that, the could calculating hate-filled Germanic shit, not the "mild" version of places like Italy.
If Israel were ever the good guys (maybe at some point after the architects of Nakba left power and before they murdered Yitzhak Rabin) they haven't been it for a long time.
Buy yeah, if you unskeptically consume the propaganda about Israel from the last couple of decades that portrays them as a western-like white people with humanitarian values, it's natural you think it's a country of "good guys".
Isn't this just bringing in wounded hostages for treatment? What do you expect hostage takers to do with wounded hostages exactly?
No, it fucking isn't. They weren't there for treatment.
What I expect from hostage takers is brutality, murder, and the intentional targeting of civilians, which is what they did. If Hamas wants to be taken seriously as a government, and not what they are - a terrorist organization that is as bad, if not worse, for Palestinians as the oppression from Israel - then I expect something else: NOT TAKING HOSTAGES.
Lol, nobody's saying they're a proper government. Everyone agrees they're terrorists. All I'm saying is that a hospital treating hostages doesn't make it part of a terrorist entreprise.
They weren't there for treatment. They were there for the tunnels, into which they forcibly dragged those hostages. Who are dead now.
From the article:
And
So, you're wrong about both assertions. The IDF themselves say they were both wounded, and that after treatment they were moved to a different location. The source also doesn't indicate they're both dead now, you're just making shit up.
OK, I'll take my lumps. You're right, I missed that when I skimmed the article. I was wrong.
That said, this is still a situation in which Hamas injured two civilians, abducted them, forcibly dragged one of them into a hospital that is now clearly known to have been at least partially a Hamas front, and is still holding them against their will (assuming they are still alive). The fact that they aren't known to have committed the final atrocity - yet - to these two hostages does not magically make them the good guys in this.
Hamas are not the good guys. That doesn't make the hospital the bad guys, and it doesn't make everyone in Gaza complicit. Your inability to separate different actors in this scenario is limiting your perspective and objectivity.
Nobody's calling Hamas the good guys. We're pushing back on the narrative that the hospital itself is somehow involved and thus exempt from the normal protections in war.
Hospitals will treat anyone that comes in by default, and in the case of a Gazan hospital, what choice would they even have anyway? You can't call the authorities if Hamas are the (de facto) authorities. You treat the hostage and get them to GTFO as fast as possible before you get bombed.
You are falling for the IDF narrative that says all Palestinians are Hamas, as if they have any kind of choice in the matter.
I some mob enforcer shot some guy "to teach him a lesson" and then brough him to a Hospital so that he wouldn't die, would that make the Hospital a "Mob HQ" and justify a military attack on it that killed innocents being treated and working there?!
There is no such thing as Guilt By Association except in the "they're all the same" of racist-logic, so one wonders how exactly anybody who is not a racist could ever go from "IDF video of Hamas bringing hostages for treatment in a Hospital" to "This justifies the IDF's military attack on that hospital and associated civilian deaths".
Oh, for fuck's sake... Stop reading stuff into my comments that isn't there. I didn't justify Israel's attack on the hospital. I said it's known that the hospital is at least partially a front for Hamas, which should surprise zero people, since Hamas is a terrorist organization that uses civilian Palestinians as human shields.
The whole situation is fucked up because there are no right answers when an organization is willing to do that. It's an effective - if psychotic - tactic, since only other psychotics would attack a building that is, yes, also a functional hospital.
And the accusation of racism - for pointing out that nothing Hamas does with hostages other than letting them go (or better yet, never injuring and taking them hostage in the first place) is good, and that we don't know if the hostages in the video are even still alive, let alone actually treated there - is ridiculous.
Hamas is not Palestine, and Palestine is not Hamas. Palestinians are victimized by Hamas as much, if not more, than the Israeli civilians they murdered, because Palestinians have lived under their brutal rules for decades, and speaking out has long been a great way to get murdered along with one's entire family.
I'm not taking Israel's side, here. Yes, they were attacked first, and horrifically. But their response has also been horrific, and their oppression of Gaza has given Hamas oxygen it wouldn't otherwise have had in the first place.
There are no easy answers now. Anyone who tells you they know who the good guys and bad guys are and how to solve this is a lying scumbag. And it doesn't help when we don't look honestly at Hamas and recognize its terrorist tactics for what they are.
Only it's not "known that the hospital is at least partially a front for Hamas" and as you yourself ended up admitting, that can't be concluded tfrom this video.
The only source for that idea that the hospital is a front for Hamas comes from the IDF in the form of unverified self-serving statements and videos just like this, which cannot be trusted unless corroborated by an independent source and sometimes end up being publicly shown as complete fabrications (such as the "weapons in the hospital" video were it ended up being spotted by none other than CNN that the weapons had been put there by the IDF as some weren't there in a video the IDF made before allowing the external Press in for filming).
You can't really use uncorroborated pieces of "information" from those who kill people to justify their killings, and in this war this applies just as much to the IDF as it does to Hamas.
You might want to ask yourself why you implictly trust uncorroborated self-serving "information" coming from one set of people killing innocents - believing in both would be naivety, believing a very specific one is something else altogether, especially when the one side you implicitly choose to believe are the guys openly bombing UN schools and with a 10x bigger body count: it takes quite an internal emotional link to a very specific group of people to keep on trusting them implicitly after they've killed over 10k civilians and bombed several UN schools.
By this point anybody who is not driven by an irrational love for one of those groups neither trusts the IDF nor Hamas.
What do you think POWs are if not hostages?
POWs are SOLDIERS. Jesus fucking Christ, how the hell do you sleep at night? These hostages? They're civilians. They're you. They're me. They're just people, and Hamas stole them out of their country and is forcing them to stay with them.
Defending that is sick.
Israel is not the good guys here, either. The oppression they've inflicted on Gaza is terrible. But that can be true at the same time as it's true that abducting civilians - after murdering a whole bunch of them - is also terrible.
You do know that according to Israel half of the hostages are soldiers, right?
You do know that means half of them aren't, right?
Jesus Christ, stop with the apologetics for kidnapping and murdering civilians! You can criticize Israel's response without trying to make what Hamas did - and is still doing - acceptable.
Let them die duh
Let them continue bombing and terrorizing Israel then huh
Wait, now the hostages are part of Hamas as well?
If you're a fellow American, please stop weighing in on this whole thing. We shouldn't be propping up Israel to begin with. We shouldn't be involved in this at all.
Our support of Israel was certainly factored into Hamas's decision to escalate things. And the blowback we'll get from unconditionally supporting Israel is completely, COMPLETELY predictable.
Covid gave us an opportunity to turn the page on the war on terror, and now our unwavering support for one side of this conflict is going to prompt some yahoo to commit something stupid, and start the war on terror up all over again.
There is no upside in supporting one side over the other in this one - we need to sit it out. Stop sending billions to Israel every year and providing a pretext for some sort of revenge attack on us. Saudi doesn't care what we think anymore, OPEC is going to do whatever it wants.
The US foreign affairs community seems to be of the opinion that our involvement in Israel and its recognition by KSA or any other big player in the region is going to secure the status of the petrodollar. But de-dollarization is going to happen anyway, thanks to BRICS.
So we'll continue to sell arms to Saudi Arabia while they continue to not supply us with enough oil to keep prices low, and we'll continue to prop up Israel while they continue to piss off the entire region.
And everyone is just... okay with this?
There is no US and Israel. There is only US-Israel.
Israel is an extension of US foreign policy. The politics between them is all theatre. All Americans are culpable for its actions.
No, I'd like to see more US intervention, pretty much worldwide. Isolationism is stupid and destructive.
Lmao no
Even if it's true, I can't believe anything Israel says at this point.
If there is a Hamas bunker under a hospital it was built with the full knowledge and support of netenyahu.
It's futile, Israel. You lost the PR war. The younger gens hate you now. As more Boomers die off, your political and financial base in the West will erode, leaving you open to the wolves. If I am a young Israeli, I would look for a country to emigrate to. The next 25 years will be brutal for you.
Lmao you're just writing your fantasies out at this point