Unlike previous attempts at trying reddit alternatives (like Voat), kbin and much of the lemmyverse doesn’t seem to be plagued with extreme far right buffoonery.
Reddit Migration@kbin.social – 240 points – It’s one thing to have differing views, but I’ve seen enough attempted reddit migrations to be relieved that the popular communities in the fediverse so far haven’t been about crazy racist stuff or other extreme right bullshit.
I am also glad that I’m getting away from reddit’s general political shitposting, which was more left leaning. You couldn’t have any proper discourse on there, and even I with my generally more left leaning views recognized that.
Through constant vigilance, anyways. Every time you see some little fuck dogwhistling about FREE SPEECH or CENSORSHIP, you gotta make sure they aren't welcome in these parts.
??? wat
"Far right buffoonery" starts with people batching about how they're being """censored""" for saying slurs or trying to have "honest conversations about race" or whatever.
Nip 'em in the bud and voila, no Nazis on your kbin.
they're just asking (((questions))) ugh
Obligatory nazi bar story copypasta:
I was at a shitty crustpunk bar once getting an after-work beer. One of those shitholes where the bartenders clearly hate you. So the bartender and I were ignoring one another when someone sits next to me and he immediately says, "no. get out."
And the dude next to me says, "hey i'm not doing anything, i'm a paying customer." and the bartender reaches under the counter for a bat or something and says, "out. now." and the dude leaves, kind of yelling. And he was dressed in a punk uniform, I noticed
Anyway, I asked what that was about and the bartender was like, "you didn't see his vest but it was all nazi shit. Iron crosses and stuff. You get to recognize them."
And i was like, ohok and he continues.
"you have to nip it in the bud immediately. These guys come in and it's always a nice, polite one. And you serve them because you don't want to cause a scene. And then they become a regular and after awhile they bring a friend. And that dude is cool too.
And then THEY bring friends and the friends bring friends and they stop being cool and then you realize, oh shit, this is a Nazi bar now. And it's too late because they're entrenched and if you try to kick them out, they cause a PROBLEM. So you have to shut them down.
And i was like, 'oh damn.' and he said "yeah, you have to ignore their reasonable arguments because their end goal is to be terrible, awful people."
And then he went back to ignoring me. But I haven't forgotten that at all.
One of my good friends does tattoos, and he doesn't do them for pretty much this exact reason. Like on one hand, fuck Nazis and he doesn't want to do it. On the other hand, money is money. They're gonna get it done, so might as well be the one that gets paid.
But ultimately he doesn't want to make anyone else who comes in uncomfortable, and he doesn't want to slowly become known as the guy who does all the Nazi tattoos. It makes him look bad and means he will get fewer people. So it's best to just tell them no.
I remember concrete dog whistle accusation generally falling into two categories:
My conclusion: dog whistles are a reason to look deeper. Keep an eye on those people. However, don’t just condemn them.
The very point of dog whistles is to appear innocuous and even invisible to "normal people". False positives are inevitable, and after seeing a dozen actual dog whistles, pareidolia will make you see their shapes everywhere.
I left reddit because of the censorship there and the freedom here. how does that make one a nazi wtf o_O
What stuff of yours was censored?
That is the key question.
I was banned from a bunch of subs all at once because I said in one (I'm still not sure which one), that I don't think children should undergo gender or sex transition.
What a boring and unnecessary opinion to have. You're not their doctor, they arent your patients, what business is it of yours? and to go on about sharing that uneducated, untrained, unsolicited opinion online and then complaining about censorship when your medical advice is not well received.. I just can't wrap my head around the entitlement.
ok, so if you're not a doctor you can have no opinion on healthcare now? ridiculous statement. i think healthcare should be free. i don't work in healthcare or health insurance. so am i just supposed to shut the fuck up and know my place?
no, I have my opinion and I'm going to share it and @JasSmith has his opinion and he's going to share it. that's the whole point of having discussion boards. the last thing i want is this place to become an echo chamber
i think kids should be able to transition. but it's also not so simple a conversation when you're making permanent changes to teenage kids - https://nypost.com/2022/06/18/detransitioned-teens-explain-why-they-regret-changing-genders/
kids are fickle creatures and fads catch on - all of a sudden we see a dramatic rise in kids wanting to transition - like 4400% increase in girls wanting to transition to boys. is it because we are now more accepting as a society or is it social contagion? probably both and it's a serious topic we need to address if we actually do want the best for the kids. we need to keep ideology out of healthcare and make sure each individual kid is taken care of with whatever is best for them - transitioning is not always the best option. but sometimes it is.
It's so funny to me this person don't ever seem to have the same concerns about the nose jobs, boob jobs, lip enhancements, etc that are also being done on teens AND CHILDREN. I hear nothing from you about the performance enhancing drugs for teenage boys, or the altering of the bodies of gymnasts who also start in their early childhood. In the case of the latter, they get stunted growth because the intensive amount of training affects hormones and delays puberty. Gee what other thing that you argue about sounds similar to that?
Maybe you didn't know about those things before. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. But now I fully expect that you go to all of gymnastics forums where they're talking about young female gymnasts and male athletes,l and tell them that you don't think they should do those sports anymore. You're totally going to do that right? Right?
I mean, you don't know me, or you'd know that I also think those things are wrong. I also tell people that I think those things are wrong. Don't you?
we aren't seeing a 4000% increase in kids becoming gymnasts
it's a poignant social topic. instead of attacking my credibility, aiming to represent me as biased, you should try to attack my argument
having said that, i support kids transitioning. i'm more upset about the "wrongthink" mentality where someone can't even share their opinion without getting pounced on. he isn't sharing hate speech he's just talking
we aren't seeing a 4000% increase in kids wanting to transition
If you cherry pick the dates of comparison you can probably come up with 4000%
Check. Mate.
Indeed, I've been finding myself hesitant to chime in on this because I know I'm inevitably going get lumped in with transphobe Nazi facists because at some point I'm going to say "hey hang on, there's some nuance here that you're missing."
Can you cite a source on that number
was in the article i linked
i guess it's too much to expect people to read things
So "transition treatments" have gone up 4000% ... in the time period following the treatment becoming available. If being a gymnast was illegal until 2009, or nobody had invented a trampoline until then, you can certainly bet making it legal or possible to do floor routines would result in a 4000%+ increase in people who were openly and publically gymnasts.
Trans people, trans kids, have always existed - we just didn't have the technology to provide the treatment in that article.
That article is choosing to cite the numbers on the treatment rather than the condition because the treatment's very recent launch means it allows the presentation of a scarier number.
Sure, I can go harass people on gymnastics forums if that's what you want. But in that case it's only fair that I start harassing people on trans forums as well. I wasn't doing either of those things before, but you said I have to so I guess it's time to go bully some trans people.
I have no problem with condemning the people who push children into intensive training for competition gymnastics. And no, I don't believe them either when they argue that "the child wanted this." The parents wanted a child who fits a certain mold and the child is just trying to make their parents happy, or atleast not angry depending on how externally abusive that parent is being.
Also I absolutely support the idea of banning under 18s from getting nose jobs, boob jobs, lip fillers, taking PEDs, etc. Heck throw in piercings and tattoos as well for all I care. No procedure and no parental permission exceptions.
Ah yes the great source of the New York post. I don’t think you are being harmful on purpose but I do believe that by spreading shit like this you are harming trans people. There is no trans epidemic or social fad. That opinion is absolutely ridiculous. I have a close family member who is trans and the difficulty of even getting hormones is extreme. Multiple meetings with psychologists and endocrinologist, many exams and paperwork, not even mentioning the bureaucracy you have to deal with afterwards. And this is as an adult, transitioning as a minor is way way harder. No one just gets transitioned in an accident, and 99% don’t regret it. Now on the flip side 30-50% of trans kids want to commit suicide due to societal pressure and bullying. The only „cure“ for gender dysphoria is, shocking I know, transitioning. So when people say to protect trans kids, it’s literally protecting them from self harm or from getting attacked. Also, do you really think that more people identify as trans because it’s a „fad“ or maybe it’s because your can finally openly talk about it! It’s like saying that the rise of left handed people after them not being retrained in school anymore is a social fad. It’s a stupid opinion. Whenever you have more societal acceptance of something more people will feel safe coming out. I understand that some people are scared of their kids being transed by the woke liberal teachers but the same people also think that Obama turned the frogs gay.
i think it's both. i don't know at what ratio, but kids really do follow fads. one kid kills themselves at a school and it raises the chances for all of them to do so. ideas are contagious. a kid that may just be going through the regular teenage angst period searching for an identity might latch onto the trans label to explain their feelings when really it's just a normal teenage thing to go through identity issues
again, i'm not trying to say kids shouldn't transition. i view transitioning as healthcare so to block kids off from it is absurd. but i think we also need to be careful and talk about the elephant in the room - that the rate of trans kids increasing so dramatically points to some issues with the ways we are doing it. when something jumps up so dramatically we should be asking questions
It's like the prevalence of left-handedness shot up dramatically once it was socially acceptable. You can't look at changes alone and say that things changing is a concern because it's changing.
Are you questioning that Chloe exists? She's been speaking at length about her de-transition because the whole experience has destroyed her body permanently. You can read about her on her Wikipedia page. It's cool to question sources, but you didn't even take a sec on Google to check if your ad hominem attack was valid.
Here is another example. Sweden went all-in on "temporary" puberty blockers for gender affirming care until children started experiencing life-long injuries. They are now effectively banned for gender affirming care for children.
Chloe's case is a tragedy, for sure. The issue I have is that people are calling for bans rather than enhanced oversight.
Healthcare, at its core, is a numbers game. No effective treatment we've ever discovered is completely without risk. Every surgery or treatment, no matter how innocuous, could lead to complications or death. To use a recent example, the Covid vaccinations. They're considered extremely safe, and over 13 billion vaccination doses have been given to date with over 5 billion people having been vaccinated. Given that Covid kills or permanently disables 2 in every 100 unvaccinated people, and vaccines lower that rate by at least 90%, that's nearly 100 million lives that have been safeguarded by the vaccine. However, the vaccine has certainly harmed some people with extremely rare side effects. We accept that tradeoff, because saving 100 million lives is worth the risk of harming a few thousand people.
Gender affirming care for children is the same thing. We know that trans children are at extremely elevated risks of self harm and suicide, and gender affirming care is proven to be effective in preventing those outcomes. We know that some will regret their decision to transition because those cases are inevitable in any population that transitions. The focus should be on reducing the cases of regret with better screening and more oversight.
So, to debate this seriously, you need to answer the following question:
How many regretful de-transitioners are you willing to risk in order to save the lives of successful transitioners?
If the answer is zero, then you're not willing to seriously debate the use of a medical treatment and your opinion is dogmatic and carries no semantic value.
If the answer is very few, then congratulations, you're on the same side as many allies who want more funding for care and screening for trans issues.
Chloe would have likely been helped by more psychiatric care and screening, as from her story it's clear that her sexual assault as a minor precipitated a complex regarding her sexuality that was misdiagnosed as a desire to transition.
See the problem here is that you forgot that opinions are only allowed to include concerns or nuances that are on the approved list.
Anything you might be concerned about that isn't on the approved list puts you straight into wrongthink, double plus ungood.
The problem is that there's a very big difference between wanting a blanket ban on transition preparation and wanting the actual people involved (the trans kid, the parents, and the doctors) to do a better job of evaluating the situation and working out the best path for each case.
While your opinion may be more reasonable you should be careful to not assume they share your opinion. A lot of people don't realize that the common choice for "transition" treatments for teens does not transition them, but rather delays/suppresses puberty in such a way that they can choose which way to go at a later time. Banning this treatment forces a choice and disallows a trans person's ability to fully transition once of age.
because transphobes are just people with different opinions
._.
This is an uncomfortable conversation that needs to be had, but it sadly likely won't until too many lives have been irreplaceably altered.
Now firstly, I support trans people! I support all LGBTQ+ people, and Cis Straight people, to find themselves and be themselves and accept themselves for who they are! People need to learn to love themselves and not need to change to find happiness. Trans people are unfortunately stuck in a body that doesn't match their brain so they need to change to become who they are inside. Just as everyone's fingerprints are unique, everyone's brains are unique, and sometimes the brain is so different from their sex that they need to transition to truly be themselves. But IMO not all people who say they are trans actually are, let me explain why.
People want to support minorities, and lonely people want to find a community that will support them. So some people will surely become a minority just for the social support being a minority offers, not necessarily because they actually are that minority but they may convince themselves that is the case even if they aren't. But the issue is there's no easy way to know who's who in this situation, and it's arguably not our business to challenge them in their personal decisions. These are lonely people who need people to hear them and be their friends regardless of what they choose to do, and people who preach anti-trans arguments often aren't able to do that and instead are very hateful.
People today are lonely, in large part because of social media's affect on our psych. And what support is there for straight cisgender people? Essentially none. Especially white straight cisgender people who are practically seen as the "bad guys" throughout history (Which isn't necessarily an unfair assessment considering what Europe has historically done to basically everyone (including each other for that matter) but that was largely the actions of the wealthy few again). Why do so many kids and adults commit suicide? Where's the support network for people who need it regardless of minority/majority status? Real life social networks are dying. I'm sure there is some support, but it's not as visible to those who need it.
There's a conversation that needs to be had which is being shutdown because of the "look everyone a bigot(!)" mentality that bringing this up has. However, there's no simple way I can see to really separate that honest discussion from those who do want to ban the practice entirely, so it's understandable why the reaction is the way it is. It really is a shitshow from all sides. (Transitioning should not be banned BTW in case I haven't made it clear that that's my position.)
I think that some kids should be allowed to transition, based on their physicians and families assessments of the situation. But in the end it's not my business if someone believes they truly need to transition to be happy. I do think currently too many are transitioning because it's become the new social fad like being goth or emo, though perhaps I'm wrong. But if I'm right than it's a lot harder to reverse being trans, if it's possible at all.
Personally, I'm just dropping the subject IRL because of the reaction that happens after any mention of that honest concern comes out.
I expect someone will say I'm a bigot just for this comment showing any concern at all that too many people think they're trans and are harming themselves long term. My goal is the largest amount of happy people who love themselves as possible. And sometimes in trying to do that society inadvertently causes some people unnecessary suffering as I'm sure is the case here, but there's nothing we can really do about it, it is what it is. So just love everyone and accept everyone and do your own thing. Things will work out for most people in the end if you just accept people and don't worry about things. Which is what I try to do.
You have some points, but "not well recieved" would be downvotes. I think banning is censorship and can be a fair complaint.
With that said, maybe the sub had posted rules that were violated. It isn't like OP couldn't create their own sub if that was the situation.
Banning people from communication spaces though should be a concerning behavior. It goes both ways.
If your goal is to have a safe space for an oppressed minority group to express themselves, allowing transphobes to go about "just asking questions" and harassing people shuts down conversation of a group that actually has their freedom of expression threatened. Allowing harassment is more censorship than banning it. And no one should have the expectation of being able to just go into anyone's house and shit on their floor without consequence. And that might mean being banned from going to all of their friend's houses as well.
But you don't know what they said or what the community was. You are missing my general point. Please don't support general fascism behavior, whether it is from the right or left.
On top of that, this isn't somebody's house. That isn't a good analogy.
They already said quite clearly that they're transphobic. The "I don't think children should undergo gender or sex transition" is almost verbatim an anti-trans talking point.
Here's some actual research on the subject of trans people, including trans youth, and suicide risk. With citations;
Here's a study showing that children know what gender they prefer and don't change their minds on it.
Here's another meta study on trans youth who received gender-affirming care, and who saw a decrease in suicide risk.
Thanks for finding the sources
Transitioning is One solution, and it is valid to be able to discuss other options. Your citations bring good discussion points, but shouldn't be used to ban people.
My point is about censorship and the race to the bottom thst it can and often brings.
I don't know, I'm always in favor of banning transphobes. Their arguments are always based in hatred, not any verifiable science. I gave you the science.
Except that's a sidestep. The viewpoint you were defending was saying that this one specific option, that has substantial academic backing for positive outcomes for kids, should not happen or should be prohibited.
That's not "discuss other options" - that's discussing this option and arguing that society should take it away.
That you're now trying to argue that it's just discussion and it's reasonable debate and - forgive my bluntness - being openly dishonest about what the original speech was that you're defending with "free-speech" and anti-censorship talking points is like ... the example case for how this thread started. The nazis and the transphobes and the hateful bigots can always, easily, spin their own takes as righteous and reasonable debate - if you let them lead the dialogue and frame their discourse through the most-appealing lenses possible. And they can make valid-sounding and appealing arguments for why you, too, should defend them and their right to speak.
But inevitably they are also going to use any and all space you clear for them to be hateful and bigoted and call for harm to other people - that is their goal. Everything else is just a setup play.
If the scientific community overwhelmingly and independently comes to the same conclusion over and over again, insisting on being able to discuss other solutions, especially not in the context of academic exploration (because it IS important for the scientific process to check opposing hypothesis and to peer review) but in the Context of telling a baseless opinion easily disputed, then no.
That's like the people who insist on 'discussing other explanazions' for climate change.
And it is more than understandable that this insistence then is seen as the Opposite of good faith arguing and met with resistance. There is no point in giving a forum to harmful lies. That is not productive discourse
They repeated what they said, which is good enough reason to ban them from dozens of communities. People generally portray themselves in the least controversial light possible in these circumstances, so that's the best case scenario.
Many subreddits are the personal spaces of groups of people. Doesn't matter whether it's literally a physical house someone lives in or a metaphorical home for marginalized people. It's still their personal space. They're justified in excluding people even for trivial reasons such as liking the number 7. Blatant transphobia is an obvious reason to ban people from such spaces.
Blocking people from harassing marginalized people is not fascism. Excusing the persecution of marginalized people otoh...
I have opinions on when and how children should be allowed to access cigarettes, alcohol, and motorcycles. Are those opinions also boring, unnecessary, and entitled?
If that medical opinion wasn't backed up by doctors and the majority of the medical community, I'd imagine that opinion probably would be.
The medical opinion backed up by doctors and the majority of the medical community used to be that alcohol for minors was fine and that cigarettes were good for you.
The medical community is perfectly capable of being wrong and prescribing societal dogma over anything else.
You’re dismissing all of modern medicine there, which IMO is even worse. Knowledge might change, but until it does, we have to follow the current state of science. Otherwise we’re back to guesswork.
No, I'm dismissing the idea that the "medical consensus" is unquestionable truth.
If questioning the medical consensus was always wrong then we'd still believe that handwashing was a waste of time, and cigarettes would probably be lauded as a way to resist the miasma.
When the consensus changed to say that cigarettes and underage drinking are bad, that didn't overthrow the idea that handwashing is still good. And when the consensus changes to say that the modern approach to transitioning has caused more harm than help, that won't overthrow the idea that underage drinking and cigarettes are still bad.
Questioning the medical consensus is ok, as long as you're a medical researcher with a study to show that there's a problem. I don't get the feeling that you are.
Laypeople are perfectly happy to give baseless opinions on my actual field of expertise, only fair I return the favor on other fields. Also how do you propose we get a study which shows the problem if you aren't allowed to ask the question which prompts the study until after the study is done?
Besides, when societal dogma is driving more than anything else then the only expertise you need is to be a member of that society. And nobody can deny me that qualification.
So ban people with dissenting opinions unless they are an expert. Seems like a great totally not authoritarian plan!
In society we routinely have opinions about things which don't affect us personally. We have opinions about murder, for example, and we made it illegal. None of my family have been murdered before. I'm neither a police officer nor a judge nor criminologist. I'm the least qualified person in the room to have an opinion on this, and yet, democracy gives me that right. I choose to continue to vote to make murder illegal because I think it is immoral.
Likewise, I think it is immoral to do this to children:
Banning you should be a social media tradition.
I get why subs that consider themselves safe spaces for trans folk would ban you for that.
Transitions are Never done willy nilly. Several doctors and psychologists will be in contact with that person before. If they agree it is fine, as Healthcare professionals, then it must be that forcing the person to stay their birth gender will do more harm
What an excellent example of the kind of person who can fuck right off and out of the fediverse forever.
Lmao, yeah you deserved to have your trash take "censored". Gender affirming care saves lives, and has a less than 1% "regret rate". For reference, knee replacements have about a 15% rate. Shocking how trans-inclusive spaces don't want transphobes around.
I think the problem with your opinion is that it conveys that you believe children are being throw into surgery rooms and given sex transitions loosely and without thought to the consequences.
I think your real opinion is that you believe children shouldn't be given unnecessary surgeries. If that is true, the large majority of the population would agree with you.
In addition, have you explored what Doctors believe is a necessary sex transition for a child? What are those parameters? If you don't know, then I would consider your original stance to be of ignorance. Since you really never dive into the subject, most people will assume that you haven't explored those parameters and don't understand the reasoning behind them. That is why you're facing aggression with your opinion.
You're entitled to your opinion, but the consensus among the medical and scientific communities is that you are wrong. They are the experts here, not you. At some point, blindly repeating falsehoods based on prejudice stops being an avenue for constructive debate and instead just wastes everybody's time and makes people angry for no reason.
You're advocating against life-saving treatments. Of course you're going to get shit on.
I’m so glad I signed up on Beehaw where I can flip my app to local only and makes these dog whistling conservative bigots disappear. It’s wonderful. I also never see any downvotes.
fascism doesnt play fair in the marketplace of ideas, if you invite a nazi to sit at your table you've made it a nazi table. free speech is necessary and important, but we still draw lines for things like defamation and hate speech. another line is not offering a platform to fascists, they arent entitled to a seat at the table to spread fud.
you're like "but i'm not a nazi" , great, let's keep it that way.
how did this discussion devolve into Nazis? I'm afraid you're probably part of the problem.
Like the title said, it basically started off with Nazism. No devolution of discussion required.
Thank you for calling that out.
I may have misunderstood the intent of the post. sometimes I skim without meaning to.
Importantly, "free speech" is about government, not privately owned spaces.
We believe the government should not be given the power to censor speech, because people are born into it without a choice. Governments could use this power nefariously, and their citizens would have no meaningful recourse.
Nobody is born into Reddit or kbin or Lemmy. If someone doesn't like the rules of a given instance, they are welcome to leave and free themselves of this burden.
It certainly doesn't. It's just that alt rtght absolutely abuses good will and rules to the extreme and systematically hijacks certain phrases.
See Elon Musk's Twitter as a light example (giving in to authoritarian censorship, and skewing content visibility, while constantly touting himself a "Free speech absolutist"), or the_donald from Reddit, which was mostly made of bots, conspiracy theorists and some sane, but malicious people, banning anyone who's even slightly misaligned.
Some people like the previous commenter are then incorrectly shortcutting hijacked slogans to the alt right. Which was their goal to start with - increasing the friction, uncertainty and division.
To elaborate about free speech we want to mantain sensible environment. So we need to give a boot to astroturfing bots and far, far right neonazis. Though as with most things, moderation is the key.
Elon's acquisition of Twitter serves as an insightful case study of how a corporate CEO can turn what used to be a diverse, tolerant, and bountiful community of netizens with no home for hate speech and misinformation into a sad capitalist bloodbath.
Please take note, Huffman. And please take note, the internet in general.
Yeah TWITTER was "a diverse, tolerant, and bountiful community of netizens" before Musk took over. This is the most insane thing I've read all week.
This would get you permabanned and muted on r/news
Yes, but the "censorship" and "freedoms" they talk about isn't about malicious censorship (I.e. Spez going around quietly editing dissenting comments) or freedom about how our content is used (I.e. Reddit refusing to let people delete their comments).
Their version is about spreading misinformation and hate speech of all kinds, alongside racist and facist ideologies unfiltered and unimpeded. They're malicious actors acting like victims.
We don't want any of that, we want all folks to feel welcome, which is why we have to shoot that down. To maintain a tolerant society, we must only be intolerant of the intolerant.
That's another thing they'll tell you, to add to your point. They'll say general society, or lefties, are unwelcoming hypocrits for expressing the need for inclusion while not including fascists.
They'll word the same opinions in a million ways until they find the way that gets you to allow them to continue blabbering intolerant bull crap.
It's true, those types will use your own rules against you to wipe you out if you let them. It's one of the oldest tricks in the playbook of bad faith arguments.
I bet you we'll see a version of that very argument with the Fediverse when Meta brings "Threads" onto the scene. They'll preach inclusion then use the old EEE tactic to kill us off.
I'm a big fan of free speech.
Nazis scare minorities into not being able to fully exercise their right to free speech.
So censoring the far right actually results in a net gain in free speech for society and communities as a whole.
That's the Paradox, they use tolerance to fill the space with intolerance.
I said it in a comment below and I'll write it out again because it is a great point (that I have seen several times on Mastodon, not that I thought up on my own) that the only way to resolve the Paradox of Tolerance is to understand tolerance as a social contract.
Nazis start from not adhering to the contract, because they refuse to tolerate certain identities. TERFS refuse to tolerate trans identities. Neither the Nazi nor the TERF viewpoint is entitled to tolerance. Compare to Furries, who have no problem with non-furry identities but are often not welcomed because they are so very very strange. Tolerance is for furries, not nazis.
Karl popper babyyyy
Going to bring it up again, the Paradox of Tolerance disappears when you consider tolerance a social contract rather than a moral standard.
Nazis base their identity and politics around not tolerating the presence of various minorities, and therefore aren't entitled to tolerance themselves.
TERFs base their identity and politics areound not tolerating trans people, and therefore aren't entitled to tolerance themselves.
Furries don't base their identity on excluding, invalidating or persecuting someone else, so furries are entitled to tolerance.
So, the furry boards stay but we need to defederate Nazis and TERFs.
There's always going to be some fuzzy edge cases, unfortunately. When tolerance becomes such an important and powerful thing it will become easily weaponized and subject to misinterpretation, deliberate or otherwise.
Oh yeah, but honestly if we can just keep the big troublemakers out and set a line in the sand we can put up with the fuzzy edge cases. It would also be necessary to consider tolerance a concept that goes beyond interpersonal interaction. Like, okay, this guy is civil but what he's saying is that genocide is okay. Or, okay, this guy is rubbing me the wrong way but at its core "Archer is a better Captain than Sisko"* is not fundamentally about race, it could honestly be he just prefers Archer.
*Sisko is a better Captain than Archer, this is fact. But sometimes people are just wrong and that's okay.
Which captain poisoned the atmosphere of a whole planet just for his personal vendetta against one guy?
Which captain initiated the murder of an innocent diplomat just to get his way?
Don’t get me wrong, Sisko made for better stories, but being a good captain is a different category.
I knew I'd get one.
Archer's problem is that he's weak, kind of cowardly, and a bully. I watched the whole series, but you only need watch Cogenitor to see it. Even Lorca would've kept a promise to one of his crew.
Sisko did some stuff we can argue about, but he has the courage to make the choice according to his principles. I can't put Archer in Sisko's situations and see him coming out better.
Also, Sisko punched Q. Knowing FULLY who Q was. Nothing can detract from punching Q.
the guy who gave us the Paradox of Tolerance also gave us Falsifiability, They should teach him in grade school.
I always say that there is no paradox of tolerance, because tolerance doesn't work that way.
It's not a wide open door. No tolerance is a compact. It's a peace treaty. A social contract that can be violated, and those who violate it can then be excluded from it until they stop being hateful idiots.
Reddit was filled with a special brand of retards always trying to police language always acting smug about taking about some weird moral high road it is exhausting to deal with. People irl dont have such tight asses about speech. And permabanning someone for having an opinion you dont agree with is an abuse of power (not like it matters much to people who are so zealous about policing public morality). Obviously dont be a shitter and start spouting off trump supporters special brand of koolaid but if you feel like trans women should not compete with biological women in professional womens sports then you are free to think that way.
Speaking of speech:
Using the word "retard" as a derogatory term is pretty offensive to those born with developmental defects. It's similar to how we used to use "gay" in a similar way a few decades ago. It's pretty shitty.
you are free to feel that way but the mods are not free to ban me for my shitty vocab. they can just call me an asshole and move on like every other website
You are entirely in control of what you say.. but it sounds like what you meant is not in line with what you're saying.
Do you deliberately want to belittle people with developmental issues? It doesn't sound like it. I think what @Dr_Cog is trying to say is that you should consider lining up the words you use with the message you're actually trying to convey.
no one is attacking people with developmental disabilities by calling something retarded if you want to take it that way your are free to do so its your opinion not mine and even if you try to twist my words to suit your fucked up narrative i know what i mean and thats what matters to me
Sounds like you've had this conversation before and you are comfortable being on the merry-go-around.
sure thing boss have a nice day
I’m honestly sure you don’t mean “retarded” as a personal attack against people with developmental disabilities.
There’s also a very long history of people using that exact same word to attack them. Many people who make arguments like yours, that they should still get to use the word, tend to also be prejudiced against these people and treat them poorly. Maybe you’re not like that, but using that word does make you look a lot more like these people.
You making an argument to try to keep using the word, even though it hurts people, essentially tells them “I will not change one word in my vocabulary to accommodate your feelings and history of being hurt by this word.” Your choice on if you want to change your words to in an effort to get people to interpret you in a way that better matches your intent, or if you’d like to stick to your guns even if it means lots of people will get hurt. After all, people are free to interpret words however they wish, including in ways that you don’t intend them to and ways you don’t mean. I don’t think it’s unreasonable for people affected by this word to not want you in their communities if you want to keep using that word, at least if they didn’t promise you absolute freedom of speech.
Hey if the mods want to remove folks like me so be it. Do i make extensive use of such slurs in my day to day vocabulary? (Not really) i mainly want to test the waters and see how hard the mods and the community comes down on me for it. Can i speak like normal or will i have to sing song dance around subjects like on reddit.
Technically depends on the instance. The Fediverse supports free expression in the sense that you can spin up your own instance and say whatever you want. Flip side, any other instance can de-federate with your instance if they don't want to listen to your BS^1.
For instance, my instance^2 would probably police my ability to use slurs. Which is fine. I certainly am a member of some groups for which slurs exist, and if some asshole started spewing that BS in my house, I would express myself by kicking them the f*ck out. Likewise I chose an instance where I can be comfortable, and not have to deal with being harassed for who I just happen to be. My choice of an instance is largely founded on its Code of Conduct. In exchange, I extend the same courtesy to others on my instance.
It's almost like a social contract...
Anyway, point being, as a consequence of different instances having different Codes of Conduct (even if just minor changes), you will technically be bound by both the CoC of your home instance and the home instance of the community/magazine.
lol ok i just want to hang in a place that isnt all uptight or uppity about language
Good luck with your quest. May you find that place eventually.
Speaking as someone with a speech impediment, using the word "the" is super offensive to me. It's basically a slur. If you don't stop using it immediately, I have no choice but to report you for being a Nazi.
Same. I hate censorship there and came for the freedom here
What censorship and freedom are you talking about?
I once said in the World News subreddit during the initial days of Russia invading Ukraine "fuck Russia. Also fuck China" and made it clear I was talking about their governments, and was banned. I also commented in Old School Cool subreddit a benign mention that OP's mom was attractive and got banned. I also told the mods of another subreddit that allowed comments on how to encourage violence at drag shows (can't remember where now) they were fascist pieces of shit, no mincing of words, and literally had an account ban from reddit due to too many strikes.
I can tell fascists and tankies here to go fuck themselves here consistently without fear of reprisal by a fat unemployed useless mentally retarded moderator on a power trip.
Fuck reddit and it's inconsistent censorship.
Wow, the only reasonable comment talking about "censorship" in this thread.
Another example I can think of is when the CCP announced that they were going to put restrictions on depicting "feminine men" in media, so I went to r/GenshinImpact to see the riots that would unfold from having their femboys taken away. there was a post about it that appeared on google but had been removed, so I went on there using removeddit and found several with over 3k upvotes each that had all been removed, undoubtedly by the mods shilling for the Chinese government.
In my experience, the people ranting about "free speech" the loudest are the most flagrant violators of the "my right to move my arms ends at your nose" maxim.
"The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox\_of\_tolerance
I for one welcome our intolerant of intolerance server admins across the fediverse.
I like to think of it as tolerance as a social contract. If you aren't tolerant, you break the terms of the contract and are not privileged to benefit from it.
Nice, though the very first panel misspells "intolerance".
I get why you're posting this comic and I contextually agree with you. However, the comic itself is bad, and it distorts quite a bit what Popper said.
The quote in the Wikipedia link that you've shared is considerably better:
Sorry, but what comic are you referring to? Some other users also referenced panels of a comic, but I don’t see any comic—or any link other than to Wikipedia.
Has the user edited it out?
Either it was edited in and that edit didn't reach your instance, or Lemmy doesn't like something about how Kbin does images. Either way, here's a direct link to the comic (you'll have seen it before, it's posted a lot).
Annoyingly, I can't view the post from its own instance because it seems like Kbin requires an account even to view?
Would love if someone has a Lemmy link to any instance other than mine so I can rule out that first possibility.
This is definitely very possible. I've already encountered cases where Kbin users weren't able to interact with my images from Lemmy in quite the same way Lemmy users could.
Kbin.social doesn't require you to log in to see content, or at least it doesn't when I try. Here's a link to the same comment on lemmy.world (I don't see the comic) and on fedia.io, a different Kbin instrance (also no comic). No idea why it's only showing up on this instance.
I like the comic.
But we have out fair share of Mao and Stalin lovers and Xi loveboys. It's very simmilar. But I guess they are mostly contained to one or two instances.
Yeah, that also sucks, but on the other side Reddit had those too. Over half of leftist subreddits was plagued by them in fact.
I really liked /r/latestagecapitalism but I got banned for talking smack about China, and how the authoritarianism of the USSR and its child states didn't line up with the values they tried to espouse.
Permanently banned. Appeal ignored. Disappointing, but good riddance I suppose.
Tankies make us all look bad
They went to the deep end at some point. Though that sub was always somewhat weird, gave me astroturf vibes or that they've some hidden agenda. I think I've been banned from there as well.
Indeed, people tend to forget that the left-right meet isn't a half circle, but a full circle. You lean far enough one way on either side and you start wandering into the other side.
Nah, horseshoe theory is bullshit. Militant far left, and militant far right are shitty for very different reasons.
I wouldn't say it's fully bullshit. The far left and far right, despite having very different ultimate goals, do have one very significant common point in both being opposed to the status quo, and in that opposition, you see some common tactics and ideas develop, such as a tendency towards authoritarianism and an increased tolerance for violence.
Consider that weirdest kind of leftist who's so far down the "America bad" rabbit hole that they unironically support Russia's invasion of Ukraine, despite Russia being as close to a Christo-fascist sexist homophobic authoritarian hell hole as currently exists.
That's some real Enlightened Centrism bullshit right there.
To true nothing pisses tribalists off more than pointing out there tribes only really differ in style.
When the destination is militant authoritarism and fascists, how you got to that point doesn't really matter.
Fascists, alt-right, tankies, and other extremists will kill any chance we have of talking normally in this place, so they cannot be allowed to take root in the mainstream instances.
horseshoe theory and the political compass are both kinda silly tho, left and right are more like collections of allied ideologies than a precise value that can be placed on a graph or spectrum.
Indeed, the world is far too complicated a place to be reduced to just one or two dimensions.
I'm somewhat fond of the "8 Values" test, which reduces the world to four dimensions. Still way oversimplified, but at that point people are far more likely to compare themselves and see "we may differ on this axis but we actually agree on this other axis," which is very helpful for discourse.
These instances are like pirate ships pursuing us.
But they don't write from their original instance name... nonono, I'm sure that they are popping up here with a fresh duplicate account:
And you end up discussing with a whooping 5 downvotes as a starter. It gives the tone for the other people who want to discuss and see you as "this guy".
This is one of the major benefits of upvotes/downvotes not being anonymous in activitypub, IMO. Anyone can run a bot that detects patterns like this and calls it out for all to see.
I haven't seen any, just block political communities.
That's like closing the eyes. I like tje political communities, that was the main reason I was on reddit.
/r/Politics was a pretty terrible place. I hope you aren't suggesting you want that here.
I think /r/Politics was just about US politics, I haven't been there much.
The Lemmy Devs are tankies
But they don't post about it so who cares?
They run lemmy.ml and censor people talking negatively about the CCP
They don't have that power, they don't control most of the instances, if they do that on their own instances that's up to them. They couldn't even secretly embed anything in the code to push an agenda since it's open source.
They have that power on their own instance which is the "official" instance and very popular.
And it just sucks that the software is associated with tankies.
They could silently change their own instance if they wanted to, there has already been some nonsense with them blocking kbin useragents.
There's no "official instance", it's free software - lemmy.ml isn't even a recommended instance at https://join-lemmy.org .
It's you that's perpetuating that association.
You can't base your software choices on whether or not you agree with their creators political beliefs or else you won't use anything. The creator of Javascript has expressed controversial opinions about same-sex marriage and most of the web uses it.
Come the fuck on buddy.. lol..
Also it's number 1 under popular on that page.
That's because it's a popular instance.
Feel free to use what you like, of course, that's the beauty of the fediverse, but I don't understand what you're hung up about now having explained it to you.
This is one of their announcement posts.
https://web.archive.org/web/20230626055233/https://old.reddit.com/r/communism/comments/cqgztr/fuck\_the\_white\_supremacist\_reddit\_admins\_want\_me/
I really don't think it's a wild stretch to say that the people who run an instance that is moderated with a clear political agenda, who actively say that their intent is to promote that agenda, and who are officially promoting that instance in their capacity as developers - are in fact doing so in order to promote that agenda.
But hey, maybe that's a reach.
So don't use Lemmy.ml?
I don't, still sucks that the Lemmy devs are tankies and censor people.
It's an open source, open contribution project. It has one maintainer who's confused being angry at the capitalist class with a call to reflexively defend people who use the word "communism" to justify whatever they want, but he's not "the devs".
No none seems to care when for-profit projects are backed by the slime of the Earth. Actual fascist Peter Thiel financially backed Reddit a decade ago, and people didn't care. And Tencent, with actual and direct ties to the CCP has been a major investor in Reddit for years now.
Reddit ran off of the direct support of white supremacists, anti-democracy advocates, and CCP supporters, and none of that was an issue for anyone until spez got stupid with some small developers.
The tankie guy's political influence will be miniscule in the long run. You can't say that about Thiel's or Tencent's.
On their own instance, that they run. So again, who cares?
It sucks that the official instance from the devs of the software denies human rights violations and supports authoritarian governments.
That should not be where people land when looking for a reddit alternative.
It's not the "official instance", though. There isn't an "official instance."
They're the devs that got the software started, but anyone can be a dev or fork the repository. Or write a new compatible server from scratch, like kbin.
We're not even using their software now. It shows the power of open source that all of this can coexist peacefully despite differing opinions.
Thanks to the beauty of both open source models and activitypub, the fact that the lead developer is a tankie does not affect Lemmy users in any way because their sphere of influence ends at lemmygrad and lemmy.ml . If you're a user of those instances and want out, you can just create another account in another instance and still can access any communities you want.
I keep hearing this, and I still don't care. Being from America, I've never even heard that term.
Reddit was run by a capitalist corporation. In America, the Left should hate that, but most of Reddit was decidedly liberal.
See? It doesn't matter. Use the platform or don't. Block what you don't want to see. People are going to post different opinions in public spaces.
this partisan nonsense is the biggest threat to the fediverse rn. when will people understand that the real fight is down vs. up, the little guy vs the elite mafia. left/right as an endless blamegame they use to keep us fighting each other, while they steal from everyone. the old divide & conquer, still works like charm. every other platform is already infected with it. if it gets to the fediverse, we're just gonna end up with a bunch of oppressive echo chambers much like reddit. if that happens I'll be gone
Little guys lapping up right wing propaganda sure make it extremely difficult to fight the elite, tho.
They become merely another instrument of the "up" of suppressing the "down" when you're feeling frustrated, helpless, and hopeless all the time.
As opposed to the clearly smarter, enlightened little guys on the left. You're going exactly what they're describing.
You're just upset that your right wing hatred constantly gets called out.
You're implying that the left and right suppress each other equally, but frankly it's only the right trying to fuck over their fellow man for profit and power. Got nothing to do with being more enlightened or smarter. Compassion though... Ye, the left are more compassionate.
Of course feel free to prove me wrong...
Lets just take this to the extreme and see where shit lands.
Take the common leftist view. What happens to the country if we "got" our way. Everyone has healthcare coverage. Everyone with regard to their gender, orientation, race are treated equally and with dignity/respect. Everyone has a living wage. Everyone that wants to go to college can go to college without huge debt. Oh, we have to figure out how to pay for it.
Man that sounds fucking awful.
Now take it where the common right wing idiot that is consumed by the culture war wants to take it. Gay marriage outlawed. Transpeople wiped from the face of the earth. Fuck minorities. No minimum wage. Lower taxes for the 1%. Privatized social security, privatized medicare. No federal minimum wage. Gov't restriction of free speech.
And yes, I say right wing dipshits want to restrict free speech because they are the morons removing books. To quote Rage Against the Machine, "They don't have to burn the books, they just remove them" That is exactly what the right wing morons are doing.
The right getting their way leads to a dystopian shithole where only the wealthy have decent lives.
I would actually be ok arguing economics with a conservative. But the conservatives lost that fight when they embraced the religious right and decided to economically spend just as much as the liberals. Both parties are big spenders. So economics aren't a talking point anymore. It is purely a culture war that the right started.
Maybe you need to step back from the first order effects that your bias is saying and look deeper.
What is the cost of free health care? Where is it paid for?
What is the result of lower taxes (the right wing is for lower taxes for everyone, not just the rich - your 1% claim is an outright misrepresentation of their views): more money that can be used to invest.
there is a lot more to both. I'm countering your left wing bias by doing the same as you: cherry picking results that fit my narrative.
Going to take an easy one for you.
"What is the result of lower taxes (the right wing is for lower taxes for everyone, not just the rich - your 1% claim is an outright misrepresentation of their views): more money that can be used to invest."
We have the data over the past 70 years to show that is 1000% false. Straight up false.
Go look at economic investment in the 1950s to now. Seriously, go look it up. When we had the highest tax rates, especially corporate tax rates, we had the highest level of investment into research and salaries.
When you have the lowest tax rates, what you get is stock buybacks and huge salary payouts to executives. You obviously have done very little research in how low tax rates work in reality. Hint, it doesn't trickle down. And we know because we have hard facts and how the markets have worked over time.
EDIT: And I want to give you the reason why high tax rates lead to more investment. If you have a choice between lowering your tax burden by using it for research and salaries, you would rather do that than give it to the gov't. That is why high tax rates work.
The US currently has one of the worst cost-to-outcome ratios for healthcare of any developed country. So if anything, the cost would decrease.
"lower taxes for everyone" helps the 1% the most, and harms the bottom whatever% the most
trickle down economics isn't a thing
Taxes.
Except that you guys are paying retail + markup + profit for the investors + "we have a monopoly" fees + "lol, your other option is dying" surcharge.
We just buy healthcare at-cost and wholesale.
I pay like $2K a year in taxes towards healthcare. $2K invested in a socialized healthcare system buys services, service time, and supplies that would cost an American hundreds of thousands of dollars when paying for them as an induvial in a for-profit healthcare system.
Yeah. Sometimes I pay for healthcare I don't use. Sometimes there are inefficiencies in the system. It is not a perfect system. But it's also not making anyone go bankrupt due to a medical emergency.
Paying $100K just to save $2K is never going to be good math, no matter how creative we get with the accounting.
Definitely smarter than the group that thinks Trump should be a president and tries to deny science at every turn. You don't need me to tell you which group it is that denied global warming, denied the existence of covid-19, denied universal healthcare, host the Nazis and white supremacists, and so on, do you?
And when confronted with these kinds of questions the typical reaction is to ignore it or make excuses rather than looking at their own group with insight. Any conservatives who think it's okay for Nazis and extremists to house themselves in their group might as well join them. Otherwise, stop making excuses and look at the problems.
I’m trans and I will provide a safe space for kids even if you won’t. And you can’t stop me ^^
it's important to see that both sides have extremes and to assume that anyone who tips the scale "left" or "right" is somehow more right or more wrong is what keeps us from being able to find common ground. turning the words "conservative" and "liberal" into slurs is equally damaging. we both have ways of lashing out at each other when we are not the enemy. I bet we can agree that extremism is dangerous regardless of which side of the fence it resides on.
Ha, you're being downvoted for being reasonable and speaking basic truths. Has this place already become what made reddit such a shit show?
They're probably being downvoted because presenting the political divide as an arbitrary choice between two equally valid options is a perspective that many would find naive at best and actively malicious at worst.
Politics is mess, I don't want to pretend that there's no nuance (I certainly don't agree with quite a lot of online leftist orthodoxy), and I won't pretend to have an answer for our increasing polarization, but the simple fact of the matter is that we are not dealing with two equally valid sides. "Did Joe Biden win the 2020 election?", "Are vaccines a conspiratorial attempt at government control?", "Is climate change a severe and man-made phenomenon?", and "Are LGBT people basically just evil perverted pedophiles?" are not subjective questions one can have a casual opinion on. They are objective questions with objective answers, and to pretend otherwise is simply wrong.
Again, I'm very much not saying that the vague left is perfect by any means, but you only see one side start shooting at beer cans because a trans person had the audacity to exist.
let me start by acknowledging that I merely wanted to express that it's not just "extreme right buffoonery" that's a problem. to claim that there is no such thing as "extreme left
buffoonery" is misleading.
my comment clearly stated that the extremes on both ends are to be despised. politics is a game I don't wish to be judged on because I'm seriously apolitical. we do need to meet in the middle. I'm not saying we need to forgive the "buffoonery" but cut out the rotten fruit and make a fucking jam. ideals are not arbitrary in any way. our ideals are built through life experience. I'm seeing a whole lot of each side trying to dehumanize the other for not agreeing with their politics. The "right" has rational, reasonable, kind humans who believe in human rights. but the fact that they may have a stance on the nanny state that the country is becoming somehow makes everyone who's not a professed Democrat evil.
regarding hate speech, frankly I've experienced more than my fair share. but that doesn't count, right?
I get your point, really, and I don't even strictly disagree. As I said, I disagree with a fair bit of your standard Online Left positions. I unironically like Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton and have the audacity to generally listen to economists; suffice it to say I've gotten more than fair share of online political hatred lol. Leftists will call me a shit liberal and conservatives will call me an evil gay communist.
But what must be realized is that the Republican party as it exists today is simply not an equally viable and rational alternative group of people who simply have some different thoughts on tax policy and the scoped of government. I direly wish it was, but it simply is not that. Polarization sucks, and I don't really have a clear answer for it, but the answer must not be taking the questions like "Are gay people secretly grooming your children?", "Is climate change a hoax?", "Was the 2020 election stolen from Trump?", "Should we legally impose Christianity at every level of society?", and "Is Hillary Clinton secretly a bloodthirsty cannibal that feeds off the youthful vitality of children?" and deciding that there are valid points on both sides.
I get that politics is exhausting, but being "apolitical" is a political choice. It's the decision that you're okay with the status quo and that you don't think it's worth making a fuss about. I'm originally from deep rural Missouri, and while it has since been voided by the Courts, I have (adult) trans friends who began developing suicidal thoughts because the state was going to ban hormone therapy. This was a regime that ostensibly claims to be for limited government arbitrarily inserting itself in the private medical decisions of consenting adults for no reason other than to appeal to a base of bigots. Things like this matter, whether you choose to pay attention or not. Being able to ignore them is a luxury not everyone has.
Reddit is just an empty framework that got filled by communities of humans. The shape of the framework did have some impact, but ultimately human nature is the biggest influence on the form that those communities took.
The Fediverse is a different framework, shaped a little bit differently but still basically the same. The same basic humans are building communities in it. I think all the smug "we're better than Reddit" stuff is going to look rather silly once the Fediverse gets anywhere close to being as big as Reddit is.
I hope it's not.
While I agree with you, class Co sciousness and warfare requires unity. I cannot stand with someone, be our situations as similar as they might be, if their stance is 'but not the brown/gay/whatever people'
All or none. I will not stand for discrimination. Not overt, not veiled as 'discussion', not ever.
I always love it when people reduce debates around whether the public existence of LGBT people is actually pedophilia or whether Black people being routinely murdered by police is an actual problem to being nothing more than a mere distraction against the Real Fight against the evil elite lizard people.
Listen, it's cool that these are the kinds of issues that obviously don't affect you or the people around you. But not everyone actually agrees that literally every issue ever can be reduced to being a sideshow of a greater class-based conflict. Do you not see how deeply patronizing it is to be told that the debates about your core identity are meaningless distractions that we need to stop talking about? I can see it being easy to believe that if your core identity isn't routinely made to be a political issue that can be debated, but not all of us are so lucky.
What OP doesn't seem to want to understand is that Left vs Right is Up vs Down.
The origins of Left vs Right as terms come from the days of the French Revolution. There was a vote called to ascertain the power of the King. Those who wanted to grant the King an Absolute Veto were asked to sit on the right side of the speaker's podium, those who were against, or wanted no king at all, were asked to sit on the left. There were many such votes.
Thus left vs right was born, the left represented the power of the people, and the right represented the power of the nobility.
Then conservatism was created, replacing birthright nobility for those who were merely rich and powerful.
Right and Left then became shorthand in the press for Conservatism vs those with more Democratic ideals, be it communist, socialists, or merely those who believed in taxing the rich and using that money to improve the lives of everyone. The press in Europe used the terms from almost the beginning, but it took a while for those terms to reach America.
Sadly, the Right figured out pretty quickly how to suppress and demonize the Left. They also figured out how to turn hatred to their advantage, to expand the ranks of the Right Wing supporters at the expense of the Left. Because you don't personally need to be super rich if the people you're taught to hate are super poor.
The thing is, the Left cannot abide attacks on those people. Which is why minority and lgbt+ rights are such a big part of the platform. Because those people are in fact part of The People, and the Left is the Power of the People. The goal is to lift everyone up, to protect everyone equally under the law.
After all, as Frank Wilhoit said;
Left vs right is literally the same thing as down vs up.
The way I see it, is that they are not exactly the same, but there seems to be a greater tendency in the "up-directed" people to be also right-leaning, also a greater tendency in the "down-directed" people to be also left-leaning, which makes sense, since many elements in those pairs of tendencies/ideologies almost line up, or are at least very compatible.
However, there IS also right libertarianism, and left authoritarianism, but those seem to be less probable than the opposites.
Take a look at the Political Compass mappings of famous politicians and political parties in different parts of the world: The up-right and down-left quadrants are almost always the most populous, while there are dots in the other two quadrants.
(See the "Elections" section on the left column, click on several elections in different locations.)
they dont mean up down on the political compass, they mean working class vs owning class
More poor people vote for Republicans than Democrats. So are the oppressed on the right, and the "owners" on the left?
Why do you say that?
Pew certainly disagrees.
Ah, my misunderstanding, then. Thanks for the correction :)
left, right. up, down. it's just a way to divide us so we aren't united against the common enemy...
Say sike right now
I would argue the up vs down is left vs right. Because it's ultimately a fight against capitalism and fascism. Because while it is ultimately rich vs poor, they're using the bigotry to get people to follow them, and simply ignoring genocide in order to hopefully get poor people put of poverty just means millions die along the way. We can't just say fuck it let the trans people die cause I'm poor. Then you're no better than the people you claim to be against.
So it should just be rich vs poor, but it's not, because too many people fall for their rich's tactics.
Voat was created as an alternative for all the nazis that got banned on Reddit so it was always designed to be full of shit. This sphere of the fediverse managed to keep clear of these people. They are able to create their own sphere that is not federated with this one but that is not a problem for us here.
I’m gonna take a big guess as to why we see less of ‘em. It may be a bit complicated for them to join. Many are used to a one-stop-shop website. Strength in numbers, I suppose.
This is my thought exactly. As it becomes easier and easier to use these sites, with apps and everything, we will start to see more crazy and stupid conservatives.
They're too stupid to figure it out at the moment. Most of them at least. And the ones who aren't, are the ones who are aware that they're ideology is trash, but they are using it for financial and/or tax reasons.
As long as they create their own spheres that aren't federated with this one I don't care. They'll probably run into the same problems as Voat did and get kicked by their hosters sooner or later.
I mean, there instances that exist as havens for far right folks. But they are not defeated with the bulk of the instances. See the exploding heads thing.
And main original dev is apparently a "tankie" which appears to be a communist apologist of some kind. For this part I'm just reporting what I've seen others say. I know nothing about him myself.
A tankie is a Soviet communist apologist/Stalin fetishist. Communism by itself isn't something you need to really defend in that way, as it just means that the plan is to distribute the means of production and decision making abilities. For example Tito in Yugoslavia held a multiethnic state in the fucking Balkans so well to the point that people still identify as Yugoslavs even if its not an ethnicity but a state affiliation for a country that hasnt existed for 30 years. Same thing goes for Greece, WW2 would have been a complete Nazi victory if the communist partisan militias hadnt held up the Italians and Germans for so long.
The thing with tankies is that they are too blinded by ideology to notice that the Soviets and Maoists were/are just Totalitarians in disguise.
Tankies get their name from the people in the West who still supported Soviet communism in the late 1950s and saw nothing wrong with the USSR sending tanks into Hungary to quell a worker uprising.
A tankie is specifically an apologist for militant authoritarians who claim to be communists. There are many, many more theories of communism than Leninism and Stalin worship.
Shit, the Fediverse is functionally an experiment in anarchism.
It's ironic that one of the main points of Marxist communist theory is that communists shouldn't actually need to do anything to make communism come about, that it will just be a natural evolution of a capitalist economy over time. And now it's wound up being used as a synonym for totalitarianism.
Wasn't it spun off/got popular because fatpeoplehate or something got banned? It was just a hole for shit crawl towards to for their freeze peach.
Yeah, that was the explicit event that set things off, so it's hardly surprising it went the way it did.
Haha, I remember that Reddit episode. Yes, fatpeoplehate getting clubbed created the first wave of filth wandering off. Banning r/incels and r/pizzagate and the other nonsense around qanon helped Reddit shed off some more.
I'm surprised there isn't a fat people hate here. They got all sorts of politics from that group.
It probably exists in some obscure instance somewhere. I don't like that kind of content though, so I won't be looking for it and will be blocking it if it ever shows up in my feed.
Oh believe me, there are definitely people from either extremes on here as well. What's different on Lemmy/kbin is that server admins can just straight up block and defederate these servers, which means for the most part you won't be seeing these posts unless you specifically look for them.
Someone posted a huge list of “reddit alternatives” and I went through them one by one, Kbin/lemmy links were right down the bottom but I’m so glad I persisted- there were SO many far right “anti woke” style websites on that list all trying to become social media, it really opened my eyes. im positive this is not a coincidence, & would not be surprised if there are some pretty bad folks/nation states are behind setting these things up to try & propagandise people.
Anyway, this place seems pretty cool, will hang here for a bit i think.
A list I saw had Freedom Social and Parler on it entirely seriously. Really shocked me to see, and made it a lot harder to figure out what was going to be the replacement. I'm glad I stuck with Kbin.
The demographics being pissed are different.
When Voat, and then Ruqqus, were formed, people leaving Reddit were
That is not what is happening now. The ones leaving are not doing so due to "I can't say slurs any more! ;_;" like that majority, or "I'm concerned about deeply abstract matters" like the minority. The ones leaving are the most contributive people, who know that the boat is sinking, are seeing it sinking, and want to get away ASAP.
The difference now is that Gab exists and those people have been going over there for a few years now. As long as the fediverse doesn’t become an echo chamber like Reddit I’ll stay happy.
The way to avoid the fediverse suffering the same fate is not to combat extremism with an equivalent amount of antagonistic political dialogue, but to form meaningful communities around non-political topics.
Instead of bickering in circles about politics, join communities dedicated to your hobbies, career, etc.
My primary concern is for the fediverse to generate content that is search engine friendly. Generally, I don't think that political squabbles serve that end.
I'm doing my best to practice what I preach. Check my profile.
It's easy to just block the things you don't want to see. As long as the communities you use don't allow that stuff, they will be banned if they bring it there. The same thing would have happened if more people joined those other reddit alternatives, but no one was willing to do it.
Every time people are reminded that they are in control of their own experience here, they downvote and reply, "no! I want to control your experience too!" What a terrible attitude to have.
They have to control what you read and it's always the same argument. 'Dogwhistle', 'Groomer', 'Nazi', 'Pedo', etc...
Funny thing is you never see this IRL and it's only the terminally online who write like this. IRL discussions are much more mellow and you can talk with people about stuff, even controversial topics and you can always drop it and be good.
Every comment in this thread you could've found on reddit and copy pasted it here. Same quality of discourse.
Man if you're complaining about getting banned of dogwhistles, you should re-evaluate how you align yourself. It's not enough to just turn you attention away from the Nazi shit, it has to be stamped out. When we do the "well just don't look at it" thing, we allow them to keep recruiting and pulling vulnerable people in with their propaganda. Fascism is an evil ideology, flat out, and has no place in the world.
Try reading again. I dont get banned or complain about it.
Nice strawman. Building your own enemy how you want it.
One major feature of IRL conversations that keep them more civil than online ones is that the downvote button can be a physical punch to the face.
Though granted, this does mean that sometimes IRL conversations can become far less civil than online ones once that button gets pushed.
Yeah, I joined VLemmy.net because they do not defederate with anyone and the admin made this post. Specifically the part where they said:
The great thing about the fediverse is that you can join a site that caters to what you want, or if it doesn't exist you can make it yourself.
I think I need to make an account there.
I made a block-button happy trip thru the moderation logs of the larger magazines, got all the trolls & fascists in one fell swoop.
Low key using this thread to do that. Lots of closet fascists being shitty in here, but hey, the nice thing about them is they make themselves easy to spot!
This exact thread down to the comments could've been on reddit and no one would've noticed. It's the same rehashed arguments and discussion ad nauseum. If you don't like some instance/magazine/whatever just block it yourself and be done with it.
I have no desire to have fascists exist on this platform "out of sight" any more than I have any desire to have a festering pile of dogshit swept under my rug instead of properly cleaned up.
If someone was planning to kill your family on an instance, would you just "block and be done with it?" What if it was anyone who looked like you, spoke your language? That's what needs to be eliminated; threats to innocent people that you've decided just aren't worth your time.
I hope it stays like this.
As long as it doesn't descend into extreme far left buffoonery, I think I'm happy. Then again, I've come to realize that regardless of personal political beliefs, it's the buffoonery that's the big issue. People who can do nothing to make real change take things entirely too far in arguments with others who are similarly powerless. The problem is that we've been so manipulated and driven so far apart that what seems like common sense and basic human decency to one side of the aisle is radical buffoonery to the other. I don't see a fast solution to that. Rebuilding connection across the country will take elections that everyone trusts, electing officials who work towards bipartisan solutions and the service of the public good rather than an agenda. Too bad I don't see the major parties being interested in that.
Then again, I'm of the opinion that we should go back to at least one element of our original system - the president shouldn't have a slate in place for election, so that whoever takes #2 in the popular vote becomes VP.
In a two party system like we have with very far opposed parties, going to a system where the rival party gets its person in the top spot if the president dies unwise, as it creates a very strong incentive to political assassination and means that the country can have dramatic policy swings without election in the event a president dies or has to leave office for any reason. Plus, the president and VP do have to work together to some extent and that is much more difficult if they are completely opposed to eachother.
See, I don't think it's likely to work out that way. I think a lot of people think we're more divided than we are - and the President & VP will both work to their own profit before their party line (hopefully), and that should lead to cooperation. Granted, it's cooperation that screws the little guy, but there's at least a hope of visible bipartisanship.
The beauty of Lemmy/Kbin is that instances will naturally form multiple alliances with each other. Racist instances will form alliances with each other, and respectful instances like Lemmy.world will form alliances with respectful instances. Think of instances as countries.
Already, Lemmy.world defederared with the racist instance Exploding Heads: https://lemmy.world/post/747912
This thread has been great for cultivating my block list, thanks OP
The beauty of the fediverse is that those people exist in their own servers and you can simply join servers that defederate from theirs.
I will fully admit that I went to some of those alternatives, and left because I'm just not interested in seeing extreme hate for people I don't actually hate.
I think the difference right now is that the people being driven off of Twitter aren't just the lunatic fringe, it's a lot of normal people.
Tmi, but when I was young my parents got a divorce, and so I end up in a situation where I was walking on eggshells because if I said the wrong thing to either one of them it would cause a civil war and I would have to deal with consequences of that. I ended up constantly watching every single word that I said, and it was really bad for me. It wasn't until much later on in life that I realized that I could open up to people and I wouldn't get in trouble when they saw who I was. For that reason, I'm extremely sensitive to free speech issues. Not because I want to go off and hate on anyone, but because I'm here to explore ideas, and sometimes when you're exploring ideas you have to step away from the orthodoxy. I don't want to go back to those days where I was carefully calculating every word to make sure I didn't piss somebody off and start a civil war.
On the other hand, a lot of the people who left don't have my story, and they left because they weren't able to talk shit about Jews anymore. And because of that, not only did freedom of speech get a bad name but those websites weren't really very nice to be on. If you're being totally honest, you ended up with the exact same problem because instead of watching out if you are starting to criticize a minority, you have to start watching out if you are about to praise a minority. The world is a complicated place you might have to do both you, you know?
So I think it's a good thing that finally the spaces are starting to get filled up by people who yearn for freedom, not so they can be a jerk but because they just want to be free to be themselves and to do so using the tools that they desire.
I'm so happy you're here 😭
I definitely think other countries have their fingers in these pies. It’s the easiest way to influence western politics. 2016 election proved that
Far right people can stay at their own instance and we can just block them from our instance. If a community is not federated you cannot do this. Stay federating people