Democrats need to pull themselves together and remember: Biden is still better than Trump
While rebutting another post here on Lemmy, I ran into this. This says exactly what I want to say.
I am not a friend of Biden's Administration. I think they drug their feet over a variety of things ranging from holding Trump and his goons accountable for January 6th through rulemaking on issues like OTC Birth Control and abortion rights, and yes, I think he's too quick to please big business. But then I remember what the alternative is, and ... well, disappointed in Biden or not, I'm voting for him. Because my wife is a Black bisexual goth woman, four strikes under Team Pepe's tent. And I have my own strikes for marrying her as a White dude, and respecting her right to not have kids since she doesn't want them is another strike against me. And I care about my Non-Christian, Gay, Transgender, and Minority friends, and will never willingly subject them to Team Pepe.
On nearly every single issue, not only is he "better than Trump," he's actually good. On the environment? Actual progress in the form of a massive infrastructure bill that invests in green energy sources and tamping down on pollution. On education? He's made student loan forgiveness a central tenet of his policy agenda. On the economy? He's gotten inflation under control and the economy is actually doing great now.
The elephant in the room is Israel and Palestine, of course, but I wish people would pause and think before knee-jerk reacting to... not even his policies there, just headlines about his policies.
The fact of the matter is that the Middle East is a fucking mess and Israel is currently run by a government hell-bent on making it ten times worse, but Israel actually falling and the conflict overtaking the entire region would be a global catastrophe. Biden is doing what he can to pressure Netanyahu over the insane and genocidal treatment of Palestinians while not giving Iran and others the sense that they have free rein to invade. (And for FUCK'S sake, can we stop pretending Iran is suddenly the good guys? They're supplying arms to Russia.)
This is a nuanced, complex, and fragile situation, and like it or not, Biden is exactly the right kind of person for the presidency at a time like this. Not only that, Trump would make it ten thousand times worse on purpose, because it would please Putin to see Russia's influence in the Middle East overtake that of the United States.
There is literally only one sane choice on the ballot this year.
Yeah, agreed on everything. Dark Brandon, you have my vote.
Netanyahu is a madman though and I hope he sees his day in international court for these crimes.
Oh, absolutely. The most despicable thing about him is also very Trumpian: He's maintaining a grip on power to try to stifle an ongoing corruption and bribery case against him.
The sooner that man is out of power and in prison, the better.
Which is the real problem, has been a problem since before I could vote, and is a problem that cannot be fixed.
I actually think it can be fixed, but doing so is hard work. It requires:
If we're shooting for the stars, for election reform, I think we might need proportional representation. First-past-the-post is only one problem in our first-past-the-post, winner-take-all voting system.
There are issues with that sort of system too, though I'd consider it preferable. We have a decent distribution of parties in parliament here in Sweden, but it's still kind of tough to find a party you really jive with. At least you have options, but generally it's all compromises and nothing really fits at all.
I think that's always going to be the case. I'm not sure how to fix that beyond direct democracy, and even then, you generally still have to have some group drafting the laws and most people only get to decide yes or no. Trying to govern a large group of people on a large number of issues is just a hard problem.
Ranked is better than our current system, but STAR and approval would be even better.
If we are doing election reform, we should go for the best.
I think it's possible. Generally, some form of ranked choice is happening in democratic strongholds. Shut out the fascists, and you get a broader range of Democrats.
THANK YOU. This is what I was wanting to say.
The Middle East is a mess. Israel is hated by literally everyone around them, and I guarantee you that Russia is waiting in the wings for us to do the stupid thing and stop backing Israel. It would solidify Russia's ties with Iran, weaken America's stance in the Middle East, and make us look bad internationally. I guaranfuckingtee you that if Israel gets glassed by its numerous opponents in the Middle East because America held up aid over Gaza, that shit will be spun WORLD WIDE as America giving in to Antisemitism, which will be hung STRAIGHT on the Global Left's shoulders. It's fucking transparent. And calling Biden a genocidal Zionist just plays RIGHT into Russia and the Global Right's agenda. Again, if you're saying that bullshit, you're either part of the Right-Wing attack on the Left, or you are a useful idiot being leveraged by the Global Right as a weapon to hit the Left with.
Oh, if I only had more Upvotes to give you, kescusay. :)
Not to mention that Netanyahu staying in power (similarly to what will happen with Trump) is the only thing keeping him out of dealing with legal accountability. He can’t afford to lose any power.
I don't see how america holding up aid will instantly result in Israel getting glassed. It should be theoretically feasible to stop aid to Israel unless a) Israel stops its murderous campaign in Gaza or b) Israel comes under attack from a non Palestinian country. Unless Israel will fall within a few days, the US should be able to back them in case of an attack even though aid was previously being held back.
I’m a little confused, I didn’t realize that US stop supporting Israel would make them look weak. It would make them look strong in my books, especially if all the money is used for Ukraine.
As someone not from a western country, people always hated US using their military to police the globe.
Edit:
The situation is like the strong boyfriend defending their crazy partner. They look weak for bending over backwards for craziness.
I agree with your first two paragraphs, but disagree with you minimizing the conflict with the rest. The Israel Palestine conflict isn't a mess because it's in the Middle East or ancient tribal grudges or religion or any of that. It's because one group wanted another group's land and so they decided to take it even though people already lived there. And now a genocide is happening. Same thing happened in the US, Canada, Australia, it's basic settler colonialism, but happening recently enough that we can try to stop it this time. He's acting way too slow. It's a hard line for a lot of people, and for good reason. That's the biggest crime you can do basically.
It's one of the simplest situations in the world right now. And Biden hasn't done anything about it but words and some small aid towards Palestinians. He needs to start taking actual action to stop the killing and start denying weapons to Israel, censuring them in the UN, using sanctions, things like that, that they'd be doing for any other country, like Russia. Netanyahu is making Biden look very weak. Iran has no reason to invade, that's a silly worry. There's no evidence that would happen. And Israel can defend itself with all the weapons they already have. The only reason Biden is acting slow is because he's a self-professed Zionist and Israel Stan, and has been his whole life.
And Iran isn't the "good guys" but that also doesn't mean they're the "bad guys" for retaliating when they're attacked, that just invites other nations to keep doing that. Same excuse we give for helping Ukraine stop Russia. International law is there for a reason. The US has done plenty of horrible stuff to all of South America, that shouldn't give them the freedom to start killing our officials or attacking near or at embassies. In this situation, we're the ones defending the bad guys trying to ravage this conflict, which is Israel.
But on all other topics, Biden is good. But this is just an important one for a lot of people. This is the most we've been involved in causing ethnic cleansing since manifest destiny and the Native Americans. We have the chance to at least not enable a genocide and ethnic cleansing campaign from a country that we directly supply the weapons for, and we're blowing it.
So obviously I don't want to see the massacre of the Israelis any more than the Palestinians, but if "Israel fell" why would the conflict overtake the whole region? Israel's existence, and constant poking of the hornets nests, is the catalyst for instability in the region. If it went away, wouldn't there be relative peace over there? I'm not advocating for it... Just a thought experiment.
A couple of reasons...
First, because any such fall would be slooooooooow. Israel wouldn't fall quickly, it would take a long time and would be absolutely catastrophic for everyone on all sides of the conflict, because they would take a lot of Iran and others with them.
Second, because it would reduce western, secular influence in the region considerably, while massively increasing Russia's influence. Russia doesn't give a shit about stability and quality of life in the region, they just want vassal states from which to work to expand. Russia doesn't think any country that isn't Russia should exist, especially near them.
Western influence in the region has been a curse on the Middle East, and most other places for that matter.
Na, Islam does a fine job of creating horrors while fighting itself. Like using children to clear minefields, for example.
https://www.wearethemighty.com/mighty-history/iran-iraq-war-child-soldiers-mines/
I just like to think that we're currently playing the Weimar Germany game. Let Trump win and you'll have given the Republicans decades of power if not more. They've been planning for years to control the government through the supreme court, you think this is the worst they can do?
For those wanting acceleration towards collapse, that's not guaranteed, and will cause many deaths in the process if it does, and there probably still won't be any guarantee or high likelihood of some sorta takeover by the proletariat or what have you. Seeing as how most of the militant groups in the US are likely to be right wing, all you'll have is a right wing take over after a collapse.
Because they need it to be a horse race to get keep people's attention. They write those things because they get clicks and views and comments.
Notice how they're not writing about how our system is failing everyone by being this way. That's because they like the system this way because it keeps them on top.
You're ignoring the big elephant in the room. This whole "lesser evilism" schtick that the bootlicker Dems have been relying on since 2016? It's inevitably going to hit rock-bottom - and soon, too.
The two party system always comes down to who runs the least shittiest candidate.
For me. That's not always who wins.
And as soon as the shittiest one wins, the bar for "least shittiest" drops a whole lot lower - it's a race to the bottom.
Of course, none of this affects policy - the class who benefits from the status quo will get what they want irregardless of who is in the Waffle House.
Stop maligning Waffle House by comparing it to the White House.
Right? Say "Huddle House" if you're going to do that!
"lesser evilism" is the entire system, since nearly the beginning.
Since 1948 at least.
No. Obama didn't have to rely on it to get into the Waffle House. Back then, the Dems could still promise some kind of "progressivism" (even though they never had any intention of delivering it).
Now look at them.
I don't think that's true I think they really tried to pass universal healthcare and were basically kneecapped by 1 or 2 democrats.
Yeah... it's amazing how that always seems to happen to anything that the rich don't like.
They tried to pass public option, not universal healthcare. Plus, if the rest of the democrats had really wanted it they could have done away with the filibuster and had an 8+ vote margin. But they didn't really want it, and they wanted a convenient excuse for why they couldn't do it, so the filibuster remains in place. And people still buy the flimsy excuse.
Fair point
Tell me you're not a student of history without telling me you're not a student of history.
Regardless of the two party systems race to the bottom, 2016 saw the formal introduction of the Pied Piper strategy by the DNC during Hillarys campaign. Formally boosting the other parties evil factor by supporting trump and making the "vote for us, we arent them" the whole schtick.
Thank you... that's what I was referring to. Lots of people on here can't seem to remember even back as recently as Obama's campaign.
How so?
It's been lesser-evilism since the country was founded
Maybe the US but believe it or not there are functioning democracies outside the US.
What kind of alarmism is this? If you want choice, push for ranked choice voting and dismantling of the republican party, then you're free to establish however many new parties you want. Lots of countries manage to have 10+ parties on parliament
And the Democratic Party needs to pull its head out of its ass and embrace its base, rather than smugly scheme in ways that are ruining lives.
I have no problem with Biden’s job as president. In fact, I got into a big argument with someone a few weeks ago because they keep parroting anti-Biden propaganda from astroturfed pro-Palestine social media groups.
Biden has been doing a great job for the most part, on a number of fronts.
But I’m sort of bittersweet on that, because the harder I look, the more I see the illusion of choice, and an intentional effort to barely keep up with the will of the people.
2016, Bernie vs Clinton. He had the votes, but the party pulled some superdelegate shenanigans to give it to Clinton. And with the same confidence of someone who had just been handed a layup in the primary, she managed to smugly fumble the presidency by a tiny margin.
Post 2020 - Democrats had a majority, and instead of doing things the populous wanted, they wrung their hands about two candidates the Democratic Party had helped elect - Sinema and Manchin - and whether or not they were going to block bills.
The other day I did a deep dive into Elissa Slotkin - a candidate so unlikeable she had to move to a much more certain democratic district when districts were redrawn. When the senate seat came up, the Democratic Party cut deals with more liberal candidates who are vastly more likable, to get them to not run in the primary. So now Michigan is going to wind up with an unwanted centrist that used to be an ‘analyst’ for the CIA during the Iraq war. She’s going to pretend to be a democrat while being the same sort of heel the Sinema or Manchin was.
That’s just the people. In their post 2020-majority they could have done so much legislatively that they didn’t even bother considering - like campaign finance reform or expanding the courts, or even changing the rules around judicial nominees to prevent future shenanigans, but that would impact their bottom line or their ability to inspire panic at election-time. They could have strengthened the ACA, but that hurts some of the corporations that donate to them. Or do things to help people so that their rights wouldn’t be at risk - like codifying Roe, instead of allowing it to continue to be a wedge issue that destroys lives, but gets people to vote.
The Democratic (and Republican) Party is playing us all.
I’m not disaffected with Biden. I’m disaffected with a political party that nakedly fucks around to preserve the status quo, rather than embracing their base and winning with an encouraged and engaged populous. They lack the mandate to lead because they only desire to govern. (In contrast to the Republicans which lack the mandate to lead, are unable to govern, and only desire power and to abuse the government for personal gain.)
So go ahead, give me the downvotes.
This wouldn’t be an issue if we had ranked choice and a coalition government instead of this ‘winner take all’ nonsense that just incentivizes entrenchment rather than inspiration. But, you know, that doesn’t help the businesses that are political parties, so they ain’t gonna vote on it.
You make valid points and we ultimately agree that we should change our voting system. But that happens from the ground up, voting for a third party in the presidential election does nothing.
What are they going to do? "Oh no, people are unhappy with the two parties...well we better dilute our power and give them ranked voting."
Never going to happen. But you can work locally to get the changes and encourage that elsewhere. Voting third party is worse than slacktavism, as it's both pointless and counter productive.
Don't try to play the game you want to be playing, play the one you're currently playing.
Can you elaborate? Do you think it’s pointless if more red voters go for third party?
The only good argument I’ve seen against voting third party comes down to: dem voters are more likely to vote third party so more voting third party means more red votes.
Like wouldn’t it be a good thing in your eyes if existing red voters voted third party?
You are demonstrating my point why it's counter productive: you're less likely to get something resembling what you want, and more likely to get something almost exactly the opposite of what you want.
To elaborate, the issue is our FPTP voting system. With rational actors, it's going to tend towards a two party system. The simple example is that if you have a progressive candidate and a liberal candidate, who both pull 30% of the vote, and some far right wing candidate that pulls the remaining 40%. . . every time the right wing candidate is going to win, and the liberals/progressives, who would be mostly happy with the other candidate left wing candidate, are going to end up with the exact opposite of what they want. So these two groups act rationally and coalesce around a single candidate, so now they get 60% of the vote and win every time, while not getting everything they may want.
So even if a third party does win at some point, which has happened in the past, it will quickly return right back to a two party system . . .usually because the third party won and the people whose vote was split realize that it was a terrible strategy.
So sure, if it was right wingers splitting the vote, I would be more likely to get what I want and that would be fantastic. But despite being dumbasses that will vote for Trump, they are still rational enough to realize that not coalescing around a single candidate would be a disaster for them, so they also have a single candidate.
And now that the parties are entrenched, there is no way that the people who have worked up through this system are going to relinquish the control they have. It has to come from the bottom up, or via some (likely violent) revolution. The latter would be more miserable for everyone, so if people really care about not having a two party system, they should be getting involved in local politics and getting it to switch the voting system first, and having that filter up. It's not easy or fast, but it's way better than the alternative.
Circling back - I initially did not respond because I thought that my response would be caustic and catty.
It seemed that the first two paragraphs you wrote were in response to me, but the rest were just the same canned responses that get shared with everyone who throws out a ‘voting is pointless’ message. And that’s not really my stance, or my comment. It kind of upset me, so I felt that I couldn’t have responded politely at the time.
It is a reasonable conclusion to draw from my statements, but I don’t believe people should refrain from voting. I just believe political parties should deliver on their promises, and if they don’t deliver, then they should stop making those promises, or make way for parties that do.
Yes.
It’s not ‘the norm’ as far as beliefs go, but I do kind of think that should be exactly what they do. They are here to lead and govern. That is what public service is. It is service to the public.
If they behave in protectionist ways for the sake of their party’s over the public interest, then they lack the mandate to represent the public.
Leadership is sometimes sacrificing the power of your party for the good of the people. But that’s also irrelevant as an argument. If democrats represent the ideals they claim to represent, then next time they have a trifecta, they should move towards expanding democracy at a federal level, rather than leaving it to states. Leaving it at the state level guarantees the sort of gridlock that holds back local organizing - only certain kinds of ballot initiatives are even seriously considered at a state level because it’ll harm that state’s power on the national stage. In terms of ideology, more U.S. citizens align with democrats than republicans (but huge numbers of left leaning folks don’t vote due to lack of representation). Their political aims would see more progress with a better represented (and presumably more engaged) populous in a coalition government where their ideas can enjoy broader support.
But they don’t run on ideas or by providing better governance. They’re a business that relies on laws and marketing campaigns to succeed in a given ‘business cycle.’
You missed the point: It is a rhetorical question. Of course they aren't going to do that. It's not how it works. These people got into power that way, and there is no way in a representative democracy that you are going to get enough of the reps who gained the power a certain way to give up that way. You are arguing what they should do, and I agree with you. But the problem is that focusing on that is just blind idealism. I'm pointing out the dirty reality of how politics works.
And this assault on "well washington democrats aren't idealistic do-gooders!" is just a counter productive position (unless you want Reps to win instead). They are humans who have human faults, and primarily made up of people who have sought out the power, so a lot of those faults are going to be amplified.
But that's the game we have right now. Ranked choice is great, but it ain't going to come from people wringing their hands over "Well, washington democrats with their slim majority weren't able to force through sweeping changes that some of their members don't even agree with!" It's going to come from getting your hands dirty locally.
It's super easy to be like "I don't like either party." Good for you. I've known plenty of edgy 14 year olds who have been able to "reason" themselves to this same conclusion. But nothing you propose is realistic or will solve it.
I’ll be one of the first to admit, I don’t like Biden. But, if you need to be convinced that he’s better than Trump, you’re an absolute buffoon!! Trump is worse than the shit you stepped on, on your walk. Trump is the worst thing to ever happen to the American presidency. He’s the closest we’ll get to Adolf Hitler and he relishes in that. He thinks it makes him “a bad boy” or someone moving against the curve…and he’s right, he’s moving against the curve. He’s moving against it in 4 straight lines that will bend consecutively in 90° angles to the right. My point is, TRUMP IS NAZI SCUM WHO’S WORSE THAN THE SHIT ON YOUR HEEL
Why do you always assume we have to be convinced he's not as bad as Trump? That's obvious.
What unconvinced voters need to be given isn't fear "vote for us or the worse guy wins!", it's hope. What is the Biden administration doing to improve the lives of the working class? Not just saying, but accomplishing? There are some small wins they've done, even if they're a far cry from what was promised in 2020. Focus on that. The few people that got or are getting student loan forgiveness. The baby steps towards making medicine affordable. The acknowledgement that man-made climate change is real.
"Vote for us or else!" is not inspiring.
It’s not inspiring in the slightest bit. We are in a terrible position and we have been for my entire life and beyond. A 2 party system does not work because ultimately that 2 party system becomes the rich vs the poor.
We need 3rd, 4th and 5th party candidates not just holding office, but in the Supreme Court. We need term limits at all levels of government. We need free healthcare for all residents. We need to take corporate interests and money out of Washington. We need to erase these cockamamie gerrymandered voting maps and implement fair elections and ensure easy access to voting for all eligible citizens. We need to invest in more in education and less in bombs and super-soldier police. We need to hold elected officials accountable for their actions and ensure transparency in government processes. We need to elect leaders who prioritize unity, civil discourse, and the well-being of all citizens. We need to put all the issues up for votes and stop letting politicians decide our present and our future.
There’s a lot we need to do and it’s going to take a long while time and sustained effort to create a lasting change.
But, it’s 2024 and this is our current system and this year we have one of two choices: Joe Biden or Donnie Dickhead. So this year we have to accept that it’s going to have to be one of the two of them as president. But when you’re voting don’t just vote party lines, look into local politics and politicians. Vote in primaries. Vote period. Or, run if you feel so inclined.
Democrats need to pull themselves together and figure out what people actually need and want. The bogeyman isn't a sustainable thing.
Exactly.
Imagine if Coca-Cola tried to shame or guilt people into buying Coca-Cola.
How would that work out.
The guilt tripping and shaming is going to backfire.
To win, you have to inspire people to actually want to vote for you.
Otherwise, they just might not even bother showing up.
Problem is they know exactly what the people want (socialized healthcare, corporations to be held accountable for their actions, to break up monopolies, affordable housing, seriously address climate change, safe food and water, not supporting genocide) only problem is vested interests don't want that. So the Dems need to figure out how to balance those two things by appeasing the powerful interest and paying lip service to the voters.
I mean, that's what they're doing now, right? "Oh, we all want to do these things, but the big mean republicans won't let us do them, we're just smol beans who can't help it, we couldn't possibly kill the filibuster or reform the court, it's our birthday, why do you hate us?"
Are we really in a world where the march of 40 years of fervent evangelical christian nationalism is just "Trump and his goons"?
Trump could both die and go to jail today and that ideological shift is going nowhere but onward.
He's gonna die sooner than later. While I don't disagree that the evangelical fascist movement will continue, they sure have latched onto Trump hard. Who's your bet for his eventual replacement? Has to be someone with a big media reach with a history of pandering hard to that audience. No need to be qualified for the position. Alex Jones, maybe? Or is he old news/dead meat at this point?
There's plenty of Republicans happy to mimic Trump given the chance. Closest right now is probably Ted Cruz, if Republicans weren't mostly misogynists I'd also say Margarine Taylor Greene.
He tried, didn't go so well for him.
True, but if I were to bet on someone trying to fill the Trump void I'd bet on Cruz or Desantis. Someone that dumb and slimey wouldn't pass on the chance.
Well right now Trump doesn't even have a VP pick. Ostensibly: whomever he picks for that.
But just as the movement quickly coalesced around Trump, they'll easily pivot to someone like Nicki Haley who will easily recouperate any Republicans Trump lost by being Trump, [edit:the type of voter] who the Democrats have been trying to court for about the same 40 years christian fascism has been on the rise.
Most of your grievances are things the POTUS has no unilateral authority over.
Not sure about his direct authority on drug classifications to enable OTC birth control. Also seems weird to focus on since this has been a hotly debated item for decades.
He has zero authority over abortion rights. The SCOTUS made this massive mess, and were enabled by Trumps appointees. This is trumps mess, and checks and balances explicitly prevents the POTUS from dictating this.
Trump prosecution is out of his hands. It's Garland's job. I'm not sure how much influence the POTUS can have here, but more to the point, the POTUS should be staying out of it, particularly since the plaintiff is his political rival. I don't know what his authority is here in the technical sense, but it is appropriate to not have direct influence over the investigation.
Seems like there's a lot of resentment towards Biden because of a general lack of understanding of the power structure of our government.
But what is he doing, then? He could be taking a firm line against the genocide in Palestine, but instead he is giving public and material support to the perpetrators. He could be rallying the electorate by using the "bully pulpit" to pressure congress with popular policies the public wants. He doesn't do that kind of thing, because they are antithetical to his neoliberal politics. He (and those around him) would rather lose to the right than concede anything to the working class.
Most people understand that the potus is largely a figurehead, but Biden isn't even doing that right. Don't keep blaming the electorate when the problem is with the shitty fucking leadership.
I know this is a reddit link which makes it bad but I don't know where else there is such an easily accessible list: https://www.reddit.com/r/WhatBidenHasDone/comments/1abyvpa/the_complete_list_what_biden_has_done/
He's not a saint and there's a lot more I'd like him to do but for someone who has had a largely opposition Congress he's done a lot.
Biden might be one of the better presidents of my lifetime
I gotchu fam here's a politifact link.
Tl Dr for the lazy. Rough percentages that are liable to change. 27 percent of promises kept, 2 percent broken, 31 stalled by opposition, 30 in the works and 8 compromised.
That's exactly it. That's what the DNC tried to sell us on with Biden the first time around: a return to the status quo, despite the fact that our status quo is fucked and is killing us.
This time they're trying to do what they did with Hilary back in '16: mock and shame us into voting. "He's not Trump" truly is their only selling point.
Nothing is going to get better under these Democrats. They want to tell you that things will get worse for vulnerable groups if you don't vote for them, but all that they are really doing is continuing to use the same social issues they've been using to divide to now control us. Things have already gotten worse for vulnerable groups under this administration.
Donald Trump is the best thing that ever happened to the DNC, and they don't actually want him to go away. If he's gone, who will their boogie-man be?
That's common, there's too many people who think the President can control gas prices or fix things by waving a magic wand...
It's a fiction the Right pushes so that Republican get the thanks for when things go right and Democrats get the blame when things go wrong.
It's telling that you left Gaza out of your comment. That is the #1 reason this president is facing a loss. If he would stop sending arms today, he would win in a landslide. You disingenuous shill. Edit: I was wrong to insult OP.
I was replying to OPs points directly. They didnt mention Gaza at all. What the fuck are you on about?
I misunderstood you. I apologize. I read the "your grievances" as being toward everyone hesitant to vote for him, rather than to OP's specific issues. Big picture, I do think his issues are more to do with what I said in my response to my other interlocutor. I also think him bending the rail workers over the barrel is also a factor. Again, I apologize for insulting you.
We're good, thanks for owning it.
I'll refrain from going back and forth on whatabouts, which is an endless discussion. Every president in the history of the US, every ruler in the history of man, is going to have a long list of negatives that can be dug up. No solution works for everyone.
Thanks for the forgiveness. That's not sarcasm. To be honest I'm conflicted about my own decision not to vote for him, but I genuinely do feel that not voting for him will move that party more toward not being a "slightly better than conservative" one. I had a conversation with a female coworker years ago revolving around the concept of "How convenient that you can ignore this presidency and not feel the effects, whereas we (Latina woman) cannot take that chance." To me, it's more advantageous to force the party to the left than to acquiesce and make them feel like they can get away with ... Not giving a shit about anyone" Just my take and I'm honestly interested in your counterpoint. In any case, thanks for the conversation. Edit: autocorrect.
Alright, I'll bite. Like I said, I'm not interested into getting into a long drawn out whataboutism thread, so I'll just state my opinion and leave it at that.
Despite being the moderate candidate, Biden has turned out to be rather progressive in practice.
He has achieved quite a lot, despite a razer thin lead in the senate (which includes fussy independents), and a completely dysfunctional republican house majority. And an overwhelmingly corrupt conservative SCOTUS fighting him at every turn, as well as a ton of blatantly partisan lower court judges. And remnants of corrupt trump cronies still planted throughout unelected positions. And a mess of a pandemic to recover from.
Despite all that, he has amassed a ton of wins. Massive student loan forgiveness, which is incomplete due to Republican and SCOTUS interference, but has still made some huge wins. Funding for all sorts of social programs like food for underprivileged kids, large reduction of costs for Medicare, fixed some of the worst pharmaceutical gouging including capping insulin prices, increased taxes on the rich, etc.
You mentioned him squashing the rail union strike, but IIRC shortly after, Biden got them almost all of what they wanted.
And I'm sure you're tired of hearing it, but he's the only candidate in play that can win against Trump. And despite the popular nihilistic opinion spouted on lemmy, there actually is a massive difference between the two parties right now. It is not hyperbole when we say this election is about democracy vs fascism. Republicans are taking away women's rights, attempting to take away LGBT rights, demonizing immigrants to a degree that is reminiscent of Nazi Germany. And again, that is not hyperbole.
Also, I see the argument here that letting the Dems fail will push them further left. I don't buy that argument in the slightest. If anything, it will drive them further to the right, to capture the non-fanaticized conservatives who want to jump ship as MAGA steers them into the storm.
I'm not saying Biden is perfect. He's a corporate dem, continues support for Isreal, and is far too old for comfort. But he's the best we have for this election. And honestly, besides not yanking support for Isreal, he has been doing a great job in a very difficult era.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying. And yes, he's been more progressive than Obama on a lot of things, not that that's saying much.
I'll have to look into him getting the rail workers what they wanted after the dust settled, I hadn't heard about that.
I'm not sure how his loss would push the Dems further right, care to elaborate? In 2016 just having Bernie debating with the other candidates pushed the conversation a little left. And I think the loss he's about to face might help wake up the Dems in terms of pushing that Overton window. I share your concerns about Christo fascism etc but I feel like him winning would only make Dems more complacent in giving zero shits about anyone but the donor class. And I also see the Republican party fracturing so I'm not as convinced that the country will instantly begin to burn if Trump wins again. It won't be better for it for four years, but I'm not compelled by the democracy is on the line and everyone is going to go into handmaid's tale territory argument. That's putting words in your mouth I just don't have time to reword it right now.
To that point, and I'm not saying you agree with their approach, the Dems betrayed their "party of democracy" rhetoric the minute they decided to conduct this campaign the way they did by rigging the primary and refusing to let Señor Senile debate. The reason he's the only one who can beat Trump (which at this point is true) isn't necessarily because he would've won in the primary or that he's someone people genuinely believe is the most fit for the job. I'd bet my balls to a barn dance that if one of the other candidates would have won in the primary against Biden, this election would be a shoe in for Dems. And I could say that about more than one of the candidates who wanted to debate in the primaries. Edit: or even be allowed on the damn ballot.
And then there's well, the fact that I just can't bring myself to vote for a guy who's enabled this genocide the way he has. I've heard people say that no matter what he does at this point, that one issue is why they refuse to vote for him under any circumstances, and I don't blame them. I don't know how I'll feel when the time actually comes, but my heart physically hurts at the thought of helping him in any way.
Edit: Bernie in 2020 debates. And a word.
... this the same American electorate in which under half of the Democratic Party is in favor of reducing aid to Israel?
It's fucking insane how some people pretend that the US electorate agrees with all of their opinions, very conveniently.
The best time to completely cut off aid to Israel was 1998, the second best time was now.
I mean, I agree entirely, but "It would be both good policy and moral" is different from "This will definitely increase the support of the electorate towards the candidate, and overwhelmingly so at that!"
Personally what pisses me off is how we fund Israel's single-payer healthcare program, but claim it would be wasteful spending to fund one of our own.
The US government will do literally anything, including funding universal healthcare for other countries, to avoid funding universal healthcare at home.
There's a sick irony to it I've learned to enjoy, because the alternative is checking my medical bills.
Biden may be better than Trump, but the system is fucked to make those the only two options. If he wins, after the election I'm going to actively criticize everything about the Democratic party I can so that we have a chance to get a progressive candidate in 2028. For now I'm giving him a pass so we don't take another step towards fascism. Republicans are going to use absolutely everything they can to squeeze their orange dictator into office.
I mean I'm definitely more on the progressive side and voted for Biden last time and I've still never stopped being critical of him or any other Democrat I voted for. That's how democracy thrives after all.
I don't want and will not settle for becoming like a Republican where I never question or criticize the person I voted for, even if it's Bernie.
Dude. This USA Today blog post is from December 2023. It doesn't even mention Israel.
A rabid racoon would make a better president than Cheeto Benito..
If given the choice, between Donald Trump and a random citizen, I would roll the dice.
Easy choice
Gotta stop lumping all the players in one side together. Biden is not doing anything by himself and neither is the fat orange. Gotta pull out the microscope to see who is who and where and why rather than hitting on a single name. The house and senate are the major string pulling yoyos in everything that comes out of washington
It's a goddamn shame in what's supposed to be a representative democracy that there are so many calls for those who supposedly should be the ones represented to change their views to conform with those who represent them and not the other way around.
But it's power dynamics, innit? The Biden administration and their wealthy kind won't be that harmed by a Trump administration, so they don't have a lot of motivation to actually change anything. It's those who stand to be horrifically harmed by Biden's opponent who must swallow their morality and vote for monsters lest more harm come to them later on.
There are a lot of reasons things are the way they are - the fucked up way we elect a president, the fucked up way we count the votes, the fucked up way we apportion representatives - but the bottom line is that our government is broken and we're not going to get actual representation out of it.
So unless progressives are going to move the red states en masse to actually change things, we need to get used to being an unrepresented minority, ruled by a different minority that has more land.
Thanks. Just needed to hear the same shit again from another liberal. I so love election season.
it really is exhausting, isn't it?
It is, but blocking individuals on Lemmy sure is a nice function. Not sure if it is a Lemmy function or a function of Boost for Lemmy.
Also, I will say good on the lemmy.world moderator that removed the post where dude really went unhinged. I really shouldn't have called him out for being on a particular instance but I've noticed trends. Lemmy.world is definitely not the worst
My God, this. I keep wondering what would happen if they stopped yelling at us and tried yelling at Biden to course correct instead. It's hard at times not to think that they don't actually want positive change, which I know isn't true, it's just that their actions sure seem that way
We can't limbo with the bar that low please raise it at least past the "not supporting genocide" line
Biden is better than Trump because he (occasionally) listens to what the voters want. Trump tells his followers what they should support, not the other way around.
This also means that people trying to tell Biden to change course sound like Trump supporters to people that believe politicians never listen.
Democrats should get over themselves and push through ranked choice voting in each state they control. Republicans gaining control of the nation is a existential threat, and we should be using every tool to keep them out. This means getting rid of FPTP voting and the spoiler effect inherent in it.
OP, you seem very concerned with how people vote. Have you worked to start an electoral reform campaign in your state? you can entirely solve the spoiler effect that you're concerned with! What are you waiting for?
Out of curiosity, I took a look at ranked choice voting in the states.
A funny thing happens when you overlay the map of ranked choice by state on top of red vs blue states...
Have you? For someone who likes to make it sound like one person can make those changes all happen I would have expected you to accomplish a lot more.
Right? Biden was president for over three years. Did he do anything to address the rise in fascism? Of course he didn't because he's a procorporate piece of shit
This is part of why I'm seriously considering just not voting for president this year. They talk about an existential threat but they've done nothing to stop it and they repeatedly get caught boosting trump allies so they can campaign against the bogeyman.
I recommend you still vote for the most progressive Congress people that you can. That could make a difference in a few election cycles... Hopefully.
Oh yeah, I'm voting in other races.
Why is it every single day I'm being inundated with posts of "biden's not that bad" "if you don't vote for Biden you'll get Trump" Wouldn't the messaging be much better if it was "Hey, you may not like Biden, but it's easier to form progressive coalitions under liberal governments" stop trying to make him look good. He's still a genocide enabler, much like every other president would be, I can admit that. Liberals really need to give up on getting people to like him.
Because the average voter will see the words 'progressive coalition' and entirely dismiss it because they have no concept of that.
Correct: The Liberal Track record around here is one so fucked that when most people here "Progressive Coalition", they're not thinking "Healthcare Reform and Stronger Labor Laws", they're thinking "We will now fine people for calling him Spider-Man instead of Spider-Person. Otherwise women and non-binary individuals will think they can't be arachnid themed heroes!"
Because that's what Liberals do; Blink and you miss it minor concessions to the poor mixed in with half-assed efforts to social justice that piss off everyone involved, because real change is too hard.
It's still preferable to the Republicans who consider the UK as being "Far too supportive of trans people" (A country that recently made it so that you must be 25+ and neurotypical to transition) and believe the best solution to the housing crisis is "Literally hunting the homeless for sport."
And it's obvious that if anything is going to improve around here, the former is a better environment for it.
I'm not talking about messaging to the average voter. These articles are directed at leftist and leftist communities.
And there aren't any leftists who are dumb? There are idiots in every community, even if they support the same politics as us.
pretty much anyone is better than trump
The browbeating will continue until morale improves!
"No no, enabling fascism will definitely cause a swing to the left this time. After Trump, our turn!"
"I'm rich and white, so Accelerationism isn't going to negatively impact ME, just those vulnerable sacrificial pawns known as minorities, poor people, the disabled, and the LGBTQ+" - Tankies
I actually got kicked out of my local Socialist Party USA chapter for pointing this out. Leader of it claimed it was because I was a "Rape Apologist" to discourage allies I had in the party from speaking to me.
The leader was a white cishet who was a higher up for a local cable company, ironically enough his workers actually went on strike under his leadership.
Eh I was thinking of leaving anyway, my proposals for "Actually do something on the municipal level to benefit the local community and win people to our side." kept getting shot down in favor of "Get everyone to vote for a nutjob third party for President, yes, that green party wacko who keeps going to bat for curing autism with crystals and transphobic dogwhistles!" and every other discussion was "China good actually!"
Honestly I had my suspicions about the guy when he disavowed Bernie for, get this, "Refusing to advocate for violence against police officers in recent campaign speech" (As if that was a realistic expectation, imagine if Bernie had done that. Guy would have left the podium in cuffs), dude was a total nutcase.
I don't really see the Dems as "not being together" when you compare it to the other side of the isle and they are throwing shit at the walls and talking about a fictional reality.
I think the 100k that voted 'uncommitted' in the Michigan primary shows that there is a level of discontent with the current administration. Now I would hope that those who made that protest vote, which in my primary here I also made that same type of vote, would still vote for Biden and not vote for a Nazi or sit the vote out but let's be real, Democrats aren't like Republicans where they will almost always vote for the hard 'R'.
So I'm my opinion, it's a valid concern, maybe not a huge one but given how stupid our electoral system is, it's still a valid concern.
I think you are crazy if you think those uncommitted are Dems and not Republicans. A LOT of people voted for Haley.
There is a struggle to understand that not everyone who isn't a partisan of your rival party, systematically a member of your own party
There is a struggle among people who say that to understand, the majority voting Biden aren't voting his policies. They're voting against full blown fascism.
It's completely absurd to me that people can look at the choice between a president who is disappointing but ultimately status quo and fucking "I just want to be a dictator on day one" Hitler-lite and just shrug like one isn't going to be the end of this nation as we know it and an active danger for several demographics.
Like we get it. You don't like genocide Joe. Do you think throwing your vote away by not voting or voting your favorite green candidate is going to stop anyone who votes red from foaming at the mouth over the chance at eliminating any possibility of progress here?
But how is Harris going to be?
Ianucci knows.
Pepe belongs to everyone. 🐸
He should, but he's dead now, because that was the only way he could be rescued from Team Pepe after they appropriated him like Fascists are known to do.
I don't give a shit what fascists do. If you give in to them, they'll "appropriate" everything you love. Don't give in to them.
Investigations take time. It's not enough to just watch the tv, go "yep, that's a coup, lock him up".
You need to depose witnesses, gather the evidence, construct your case, etc etc etc. Had Biden sped the process up by pressuring his DoJ, he would become guilty of exactly what Trump accuses him of, as well as weakening the DoJ's case by not giving them enough time to do a properly thorough job that would hold up well in court.
My main gripe with him is he's not strong enough on Ukraine or the climate. But, he does try at least.
I get it. Investigations take time. And maybe that's my own toxic meme I've taken in. We gotta get this right the first time or Trump skates on a technicality. And we all know how skilled of a technicality skater that fucker is.
Just vote for other people?
Are you fn insane??!?! You can't do that!! Someone get in here and do the Democrat shame routine on this man
Alright guys, get your Lemmy Political Retard bingo card out! Let's see how many we can hit! I already got the system is fucked and are we really reduced to these choices?. Oh! I just got democrats need to pull their head out of their ass!
This is more of a political meme, Biden and friends have no other talking point than"not trump" well so is any random person on the street. Dumbass reason to vote for Biden. Need another Bernie Sanders, progressive and not gonna fund random wars lobbied by MIC
Problem is, we have to unite behind somebody, because everyone who votes red isn't going to vote anyone but Trump.
If we don't decide to unite behind one person, we lose to an actual fascist.
Funny how the person we always end up having to unite behind is someone who would have been a republican 20 years ago, and not someone who'll actually try to make change
It's funny how when the threat of fascism looms, you don't tend to have a full array of different choices laid out in a neat menu of candidates to thwart it.
It's almost as if the conditions that create fascism necessarily require and go on to arrange a lukewarm, unpopular candidate as the only other option so rubes can justify not voting when the actual fascist needs them to abstain.
I'm so tired of the people who think they're better than the system and don't fully grasp that we're fighting just to keep some modicum of a democracy.
That's a good point. If only left-wing Germans had backed Hindenburg despite his right leanings, they could have won the 1932 presidential election and stopped fascism in its tracks.
Oh, good thing you shot down my point by asserting that fascism is inevitable. That makes the fact that you're enabling it totally fine.
Fascism is inevitable if we count on someone like Hindenburg or Biden to save us, because they either can't or don't want to.
Refusing to act because you are idle daydreaming about a perfect solution is the dumbest way of enabling fascism. So thanks for that.
You are fulfilling your own prophecy of making fascism inevitable. And you don't sound as intelligent to the people who understand what's on the line as you do to yourself.
Thanks again for stating outright that you're cool with fascism as long as a true left wing candidate doesn't exist.
In your opinion, is fascism more of a threat now than it was in 2020?
Yes, explicitly. Trump is campaigning on taking political revenge on the party that "stole" his presidency. Republicans are passing bills criminalizing the bare existence of demographics like trans people.
Dude, I was reading just yesterday that Missouri passed a law making it illegal to view lgbtq content without first identifying yourself.
I live in an area in the south where people talk every day about how democrats are going to hang once Trump takes office because they believe all our problems were caused by Biden. It wasn't like this in 2020.
You think you're setting me up for some kind of gotcha, but you're not paying attention.
Keep day dreaming. It's obvious you don't see the writing on the wall. I'm done playing this game where people like you assert that voting Biden is somehow worse than the power grab republicans are practically advertising at this point.
This conversation is over. Thanks again for wasting your vote.
The conditions for fascism necessarily result in a lukewarm unpopular candidate because the conditions that give rise to fascism are decades of lukewarm unpopular policies enacted out of expediency.