Putting out arrest warrants on both of them is so smart. It's a way to avoid people claiming they are taking sides or playing favorites or aiding terrorists or being in favor of genocide or whatever. Both leaders are culpable because both the IDF and Hamas have committed atrocities.
It is a politically savvy and ethically correct move. Really nice when those line up.
There's something satisfying about it.
At least the ICC is willing to do the right thing.
We'll see in time. Also not sure much will be done if they are. Remember the warrant for Putin was placed March of 2023. The impact on Russia so far seems about summed up to be "Putin can't attend a D-Day remembrance, and he probably shouldn't go see the Olympics, which he wouldn't"
On the other hand, Israel is not Russia. Netanyahu's vacation options effectively just dwindled to Israel and the US, with no layovers. The Hamas guys are already living as fugitives so not much changes there.
Putting out arrest warrants on both of them is so smart. It’s a way to avoid people claiming they are taking sides or playing favorites or aiding terrorists or being in favor of genocide or whatever.
It would be absurd and unjust to issue a warrant for only one of them. This was the right thing to do.
I agree, and I found it interesting that Israeli leaders were not accused of genocide or anything to do with their bombing campaign. Instead, it was the specific war crime of causing starvation due to their interference with humanitarian aid and food delivery. Kind of provides additional context for the US decision to build a floating pier off the Gaza coast.
It's much easier to say that an intentional blockade of food is leading to starvation, and that is a clear war crime. Very simple argument, easier to prove.
Talking about a bombing campaign is more difficult when soldiers are mixed in with the civilians. We may be able to point at the situation and say "that's clearly fucked up", but courts don't work that way. They have to acknowledge that in a war, the army is allowed to destroy the combatants of the enemy. A certain amount of collateral damage in the form of innocent lives lost is allowed by international law. This makes it all much murkier and more difficult to prove what is or is not a genuine war crime. They can't wing it, or guess, or go by what it "looks like", they have to prove it, which again, is difficult.
Starvation and depriving food aid though, very easy to prove.
yeh but in today's age of videos and drones everywhere it should be fairly easy to prove.
before all the AI video lets loose anyways
That is Genocide, the UN tries not to use the general term whenever possible, and instead use the specific method of genocide. That way it's a lot harder to No True Scotsman the issue. but If I remember correctly they also charged Extinction and Murder. Then in the supporting documents they talk about systematic bombing and creation of a famine.
No, genocide is an Article 6 charge. The ICC is perfectly willing to use that term, and in fact has explicitly charged Omar al Bashir with genocide under Article 6.
In contrast, Netanyahu and Hamas leaders are accused under Articles 7 and 8. These articles respectively cover "Crimes against humanity" and "War crimes", but they do not include genocide.
Both Netanyahu and Hamas leaders are accused of "crimes against humanity of murder and extermination" under Article 7.
Netanyahu is also accused of "intentionally using starvation of civilians" under Article 8, whereas Hamas leaders are also accused of "rape and other forms of sexual violence" under Article 8.
There are currently no charges based on the Israeli bombing campaign, but the ICC says this is "actively being investigated."
The CNN headline is a bit misleading. It's not the International Criminal Court as a whole that is seeking these arrest warrants but the ICC's chief prosecutor Karim Khan. The judges have yet to decide on these warrants.
[Side note: This is the same kind of lazy journalism that uses terms like EU chief or EU leader interchangeably for the President of the European Commission (Ursula von der Leyen) and the President of the European Council (Charles Michel). If this was limited to a short headline, I could excuse it, but CNN continues with the same wording in the first sentence of the article: "The International Criminal Court is seeking arrest warrants for ..." which is absolutely unnecessary, even if CNN clarifies things later.]
I've always considered CNN to stand for Clearly Not News
Edit - the BBC headline starts "ICC prosecutor seeks arrest of..."
Ok, this is very interesting. How is it he took this initiative? Actually, is it an initiative or part of the process?
It's part of the process. Now the request is before judges who will decide whether or not to issue the arrest warrants. For reference, when an ICC prosecutor asked for an arrest warrant for Vladmir Putin, it took a couple months for the judges to decide and then issue the warrant.
Yeah, the process is slow but thorough (as it should be since these are among the most difficult cases in existence).
Thank you, good to know!
I know nothing about the process. How can a decision take months? What else are they doing? Are there counter arguments or something happening in the meantime?
The judges have to read and verify the documents they got for this case. This takes some weeks to months.
And good thing Putin is rotting in a prison cell right now.
hopefully his helicopter will crash into the foggy mountains or his train to china/north korea will derail
Trains do not derail in North Korea. It is forbidden.
Modern Journalism, and I use that term loosely, at work. Once you notice these kinds of misleading to incorrect headlines you can't stop seeing them.
I think that's a distinction without a difference. How would the ICC seek an arrest warrant if not by having the chief prosecutor submit one? If the court had approved it, the title would be "arrest warrant issued by ICC".
Biden can't save him, because we wouldn't agree to the Rome act because we thought that somehow meant we couldn't be charged at the Hauge for our war crimes. That's not true tho, we don't have to agree to it.
Israel and the United States are not members of the ICC. However, the ICC claims to have jurisdiction over Gaza, East Jerusalem and the West Bank after Palestinian leaders formally agreed to be bound by the court’s founding principles in 2015.
I mean… yes you do, since that’s a little bit how international law works? Countries who do not sign and ratify the Rome statute and then remain in there aren’t governed by the ICC in the same way.
You will see in the excerpt you quoted, the reason the ICC believes it has jurisdiction is because of events taking place in Palestine, which has taken part in the Rome Statute previously.
And the United States has a law that says it will militarily invade The Hague if any US service member is arrested and held by the court. It came about along with all the other legislative bullshit in the years after 9/11/01. The US had previously been a founding member of the ICC, but withdrew for reasons of sovereignty.
Sovereignity, my ass. They just don't want war crimes committed by their own military investigated by an independent body.
Correct.
That position and sovereignty are not mutually opposed, depending on the view you take towards international law.
Hittem with that "sovereignty to do what?"
International law gets weird. Tradition is absolutely a legitimate way for something to get recognized. That works because of Sovereignty and the intense political nature of anything between countries. So basically, if someone got an Israeli to the Hague, then the Netherlands could point at the decades of precedent for the moral high ground in refusing to release them. Whether that works depends on politics and what people think. So just because we didn't sign the paper does not mean we can resist it forever. If the world wants to head in that direction, the best we can do is dig our feet in and make it take longer.
And no sane US president would use the Hague Invasion Act. It's an open question if the military would even follow the order. that would require invading a NATO ally with strong defense systems tied into their neighbors. It would be a great way to obliterate our world standing in one fell swoop.
US law doesn’t say that it WILL it says that it CAN. As an American I’d be wayyyy beyond pissed off if we did I to rescue fucking Bibi.
By your logic the nazis shouldn't have been tried at the Hauge...
Is that what youre intentionally saying? Or did you not think it through?
Like even this bit:
And the United States has a law that says it will militarily invade The Hague if any US service member is arrested and held by the court. It came about along with all the other legislative bullshit in the years after 9/11/01. The US had previously been a founding member of the ICC, but withdrew for reasons of sovereignty.
If no US service member could be tried at the Hauge because the US didn't sign the Rome agreement...
Why pass a law saying we're not subject to it?
And when did Bibi join the US military anyways?
I missed that one...
First: it’s not my logic. It’s how this part of international law works. The International Criminal Court wasn’t created until 1998, and the statute that governs it only officially came into power in 2002. Not all countries have signed, and some (including the US) have withdrawn from it. This means that technically the ICC doesn’t have any jurisdiction over things that happen within its territory.
The US codified it into a domestic law because it doesn’t believe its should be beholden to any law higher than its domestic ones, and the United States often does shady things in countries where the ICC does have jurisdiction, making it a risk that US citizens (and leaders) can be arrested for crimes that occur there. So the US Congress wrote domestic policy stating that it reserved the right to invade if its citizens were held for trial.
And Bibi didn’t join the US military. But the US has shown it’s willing to support his administration through an awful lot of shit, and the US doesn’t have any ambiguity about how it regards the ICC.
Finally, are you referring to the Nuremberg trials? Nazis weren’t tried in The Hague court we are discussing, and I’m not sure any nazi trials happened there at all.
Edit: I don’t understand the downvotes. This is literally just how the International Criminal Court works.
The US codified it into a domestic law because it doesn’t believe its should be beholden to any law higher than its domestic ones
Well that's not true. Our Constitution clearly places treaties above domestic law.
Yes, the origin of one of the international courts in The Hague, specifically the one that prosecutes individuals, the International Criminal Court, comes from the Nuremberg Trials. I never disputed that lineage. Those nazi trials happened in Nuremberg, not The Hague, and before the ICC existed.
the origin of one of the international courts in The Hague, specifically the one that prosecutes individuals, the International Criminal Court, comes from the Nuremberg Trials.
The ICC was created in 2002, just FYI. So long after the Nuremberg Trials. And the ICJ predates Nuremberg via its predecessor entities.
You're meaningfully correct in everything you're saying though. Just saying this for full context
Thanks for clarifying, I’m aware of that and I think I made mention to that date in my initial reply.
What you quoted was just referring to the article the other poster linked, which goes through how the Nuremberg trials were the primary venue of defining the four major crimes against humanity, and how it impacted the creation of the ICC later.
I am obviously having a hard time articulating my point here, though. I’m literally just trying to explain a little bit about how this particular facet of an international legal regime works.
Fun fact about the ICJ, though: the USA withdrew from the court after it was found guilty of mining Nicaragua illegally. I really wish it did more to actually follow the legal norms it tried to push in its ideology.
Edit: mixed up ICJ and ICC at the end.
Nice that they see the criminals on both sides.
Same side.
Hamas is almost totally funded by Benny and his croneys.
Was I think, they stopped a few years ago.
This is a conspiracy theory with no actual evidence
Wow, whitewashing Iran and Qatar's role in Hamas' actions. Very progressive left of you.
Boo hoo, did the homegrown terrorist org funded by state interest as a propaganda machine get outta hand?
At this point, which one?
I'm interested in sticking to the facts. If you aren't, that's fine. I can block and move on with my day.
Man you are talking about whitewashing as you actively try to shift blame from the inceptor and then try and say your talking about facts.
Fact of the matter is that palastinian terrorism is caused by Israel. Both their genocidal and apartheid ends and directly through funding of groups like Hamas early in their years to promote harsh measures to continue their genocide and apartheid ends.
"Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu defended Israel's regular allowing of Qatari funds to be transferred into Gaza, saying it is part of a broader strategy to keep Hamas and the Palestinian Authority separate, a source in Monday's Likud faction meeting said," the Post reported.
But nah. You wanna deflect facts and focus on Qatar like everyone doesn't already know that. This information is ment to be taken in conjunction but your so far up your own ass you see it as an argument and whitewashing.
You want facts? Facts say Israel funded Hamas. Nurtured it and kept it on the edge of scary to propagandize it's civilian population. Then it bit them in the ass on Oct 7th.
If your first thought about hamas isn't how Israel as a state purposely created and maintained it then it's you who isn't operating on facts.
Do you actually understand what you are posting yourself? Qatar funded Hamas under an agreement with Bibi which enabled Bibis strategy and Qatars own political goals. Did Israel fund Hamas in those years? No. Did Israel actively guarantee that Qatar funds Hamas? Yes.
Man walks in here waving his post around like I GOT HIM, I GOT HIM SO GOOD as he points out the content of the article like i don't know what it says. Nah dude. I know what it says, I call that funding. You would too if your head was so far up your own ass.
Lol, I don't support Israel in this conflict.
Who gives a shit what you support? Your being a dummy for attention at this point.
Rage addiction, huh?
Your a joke so now we joking.
You're and we're, but otherwise that was a correct sentence.
Your still a joke and we still joking. See if your going to be a pedant, you have to be correct about shit. If your a stubborn incorrect pedant than correcting some Grammer is just silly. But you is a silly person. Couldn't care less about the conversation anymore, you just wanna save face.
On the Internet you wanna save face after getting d u n k e d.
Oh nooo, did someone open their fucking mouth about shit they don't know about and are about to get dunked on?
"Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu defended Israel's regular allowing of Qatari funds to be transferred into Gaza, saying it is part of a broader strategy to keep Hamas and the Palestinian Authority separate, a source in Monday's Likud faction meeting said," the Post reported.
Netanyahu's current finance minister, West Bank settler Belazel Smotrich, explained the approach to Israel's Knesset channel in 2015: "Hamas is an asset, and (Palestinian Authority leader) Abu Mazen (Mahmoud Abbas) is a burden."
"Both Egypt and Qatar are angry with Hamas and planned to cut ties with them. Suddenly Netanyahu appears as the defender of Hamas," the right-wing leader complained.
A year later, Netanyahu was further embarrassed when photos of suitcases full of cash going to Hamas became public. Liberman finally resigned in protest over Netanyahu's Hamas policy which, he said, marked "the first time Israel is funding terrorism against itself."
Where specifically in the article does it say that Israel is fully funding Hamas and Qatar and Iran aren't?
Pedantic af. Where's it say on your license that you gotta be such a baby?
That doesn't even make sense as a bullying attempt.
Israel has allowed suitcases holding millions in Qatari cash to enter Gaza through its crossings since 2018
I'm sure bibi did that out of the spirit of charity.
Look, as far as I can tell, Israel created a monster, then lost control of the monster. The monster has since found other sources of support. In trying to perform ethnic cleansing and forced land transfers over the last 80ish years, they have also been monstrous. There is wicked evil on both sides of this pointless genocidal war. Stop plugging your ears to the parts that make the people you happen to already agree with look bad.
I'm not sure I understand how these warrants can take place. It will come from other member states in case any of them travel there?
Also how is it that Putin has not been arrested yet? Has he avoided those destinations.
If I misunderstood something or everything, please let me know.
Yes, Putin has avoided those destinations so far. He even got warned by South Africa that they’d have to arrest him if he were to travel to a meeting there.
Thank you for the clarification!
They can't make a country arrest it's own leader.
But if they travel to any UN country, the country is supposed to arrest them, or coordinate with countries willing to.
So these are more like an exile than anything.
Kind of like a sanction but instead of money it's on personal travel.
Sanctions are still waaaaaay more effective though and what we should be doing. Money is what these despots care about.
so this also means that if netanyahu loses elections, he can be just sent to hague
If the person who beats him wants too...
And if Netenyahu even lets Israel have elections. Before 10/7 he was already in the process of getting kicked out of office, the only reason he's still in power is 10/7.
is 10/7 like the new 9/11 (in terms of abbreviation)?
Only to countries that are part of the ICC. Many countries, including the US, aren't a part so Netanyahu can safely travel to those places.
Technically any member state, but they wouldn't refuse him if a non member state arrested him too. And I say technically because there's a few member states that support him and would likely not arrest him.
Good, this is a situation in which both sides are both truly disgusting and vile, using people as pawns, shields, etc.
Yeah, for some reason too many people are having difficulty understanding that in this case, yes, the both side argument works quite well. Both Hamas and the Israeli government are horrible with the citizens on both side suffering
It's worth clarifying that the Palestinian civilians are not Hamas though. It's also misleading to say they elected them democratically, as the median Palestinian was a literal infant when the last election happened, and nearly half weren't even born.
I'm counting Palestinian civilians separate from Hamas, just like the Israeli government is t the same as it's people
Definitely agree. Although I will add that Israel has likely played a large part in radicalizing many members of Hamas and their actions in Palestine have dwarfed the initial Hamas attack, no atrocity should go unpunished.
Both points are valid so yeah, both are bad to the point that both groups should be tried by the ICC and be locked away for life, all of them
And both sides are equally pissed off being put on the same level as the others.
Regardless of the technicalities and nuances in the reporting: this is a good thing.
Can we talk about a story that's fallen through the cracks here? CNN claiming this as an exclusive is madness. Who do these people think they are? And should the ICC issue arrest warrants about it? 😉
CNN claiming this as an exclusive is madness
That's an excellent point you're making
EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW
Have anyone opened the link?
They changed it to that considerably less bonkers headline. Perhaps because they became of aware of their legal exposure under international laws against poor taste...? 🧐
Also, not sure if just me, but I couldn't give a flying fuck whether a news outlet is first to break a story or not. Seems a bit self conglatulatory
All the better to control the narrative if you can DCMA the rest?
Is Giuliani behind this tact?
Let's check what the left wing "progressive" israelis think about this.
It's not comparing them, they have just all went over the bar for being war criminals.
Herein lies one of the innumerable differences between democratic socialists and liberals
Karim Khan said that he believes Netanyahu, his defense minister Yoav Gallant and three Hamas leaders — Yehia Sinwar, Mohammed Deif and Ismail Haniyeh — are responsible for war crimes and crimes against humanity in the Gaza Strip and Israel.
The prosecutor must request the warrants from a pre-trial panel of three judges, who take on average two months to consider the evidence and determine if the proceedings can move forward.
Israel is not a member of the court, and even if the arrest warrants are issued, Netanyahu and Gallant do not face any immediate risk of prosecution. But Khan’s announcement deepens Israel’s isolation as it presses ahead with its war, and the threat of arrest could make it difficult for the Israeli leaders to travel abroad.
Both Sinwar and Deif are believed to be hiding in Gaza as Israel tries to hunt them down. But Haniyeh, the supreme leader of the Islamic militant group, is based in Qatar and frequently travels across the region.
Fucking hell got so confused by the title, was wondering what the fuck do these guys have to do with cricket.
The cricket council honestly has more chance of bringing any of these cunts to justice than the real ICC.
I mean fucking Kony is still on the list, and I forget how long ago that was a thing, and he was on their list long before that.
I finally "learned" the rules of cricket, and now understand why Americans created baseball. A game takes a fucking week‽‽ We don't have time for that shit!
iirc Hitler had it banned from Germany after learning the week long match against England ended with no result lmao.
Anyways that's the test cricket format. The typical game is ODI which lasts about 7 hours, and the world cup happening this June is T20I which lasts 2.5 hours and is the most exciting to watch.
There are one day matches too.
same could be said about NBA, MLB, and NHL playoffs
Those games are completely different from cricket. Baseball has some pretty close similarities to cricket
They've already called it antisemitic.
ICC is hamas
You mean "they did it first" doesn't hold up in international court?
“Let me be clear,” the president said in the statement, “whatever this prosecutor might imply, there is no equivalence – none – between Israel and Hamas.”
It's true. Hamas is posting rookie numbers. They've got to up their death count by around 10x before they can be in Israel's league.
At this point they need to gag the man and have surrogates stump for him.
Calling on the militant branch of the Yang Gang?
It’s a good thing that he’s not President and this is all Trump’s fault. /s
Yeah, Trump certainly helped stabilize the area by moving the Embassy. And that mid-east peace plan his SIL got paid $2 billion for was worth every cent.
Haha, just mention Trump and you guys show up. We're not pro Trump.
Anyone else thinks these two look remarkably similar?
I think it's mainly the eyebrows they way they're pointed up in roughly the same spot.
Doesn't seem as much beyond that to me
Haggered
Haguerd
Oh boy, I can’t wait to see the reactions of politicians of the “free world” that prevented anyone to say anything against Israel for years on the pretext of antisemitism.
Especially that useless POS of Emanuel Macron, our infamous president.
Sinwar in a war of sin. Kinda poetic
This is the first one they have issued to a non-Africans, right?
Putin and another Russian, Maria, have been indicted as well, according to Wikipedia
There's also open cases against Putin's puppets in Georgia for the invasion of South Ossetia.
Oh wow. TIL
Slobodan Milošević was put to trial under a parallel organization, the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. The ICC didn't exist yet when the ICTY was founded.
Sloby died in jail before coming to a verdict.
FFS so Netanyahu was extremely close to being pushed out of power and this dumbass pulls this stunt (just to get publicity) which only makes it easy for Netanyahu to make the case that "it's us against the world". He's also seeking to prosecute Gallant, the guy that would most likely make the push to remove Netanyahu. So he's pushing Gallant back towards falling back in line with Natanyahu.
Does this idiot want Netanyahu to stay in power? He's basically throwing a lifeline to Bibi while throwing away the credibility of the ICC. Never attribute to malice and all that, so likely just a moron.
Fuck, I was starting to have some hope the Netanyahu could be gone in the next few weeks and this guy is pulling out all the stops to keep him in power. All to get his face on TV.
The position of support for creating a famine (or not giving a shit to stop it) seems to have wider support than just Bibi. This guy's move puts in focus that creating a famine is a war crime, and he's forcing the Israelis players to face that and state their support or lack thereof clearly. Getting rid of Bibi alone might not increase the aid in Gaza. If the other party leaders aren't willing to throw Bibi and Gallant under the bus for this and/or shift gears on aid, then perhaps the Israeli political class is too far gone and the world should increase the pressure till someone gets it and starts telling the Israeli public that what's happening is wrong and is extremely counterproductive for Israel as whole.
Also, some polling shows Bibi's coalition being neck and neck with the alternative so the narrative that Bibi is certain to be ejected by Israel's democracy isn't so solid.
Israel asked for help from Arab countries in providing support in dealing with the humanitarian crisis. They laughed in the Israelis faces.
The problem is too many people are willing to let the Palestinians die in order to win some propaganda war against Israel. I don't feel like anyone really cares about Palestinians. They'd rather Palestinians die so they can have proof Israel is evil.
Joe Biden has built a pier to provide aid. This is more than anyone else has done to prevent famine. But the propaganda says he's "Genocide Joe".
What are you talking about.. Arab countries didn't stop food and water going into Gaza, Israel's leadership did.
They were asked to help distribute food and refused. Just something you're not you seeing in your information silo.
I've seen stickers around the town where I live calling him "Jihad Joe" for helping the Palestinians. He gets hate coming and going, meanwhile thousands of tons of aid are reaching the people of Gaza because of him.
The pier is having trouble getting aid past the Israeli offensive, but over 1000 tons have already been airdropped, and once logistics are worked out for the pier it's expected to deliver 500 tons of aid per day.
Asked whether any of the aid has been delivered to the people of Gaza, Ryder said, “As of today, I do not believe so.”
I've always said the Pro-Palestine crowd and the MAGAs are basically the same people. Gotta ignore anything that doesn't conform to whichever narrative they've gotten sucked into.
I’ve always said the Pro-Palestine crowd and the MAGAs are basically the same people.
Why because you are an ideologically bankrupt centrist that finds it convenient to equate protestors desperately trying to stop a genocide with MAGA heads… who tried to violently overthrow the US government because it wasn’t hateful enough for them?
You aren’t welcome in the progressive coalition if you desire to ignore reality in favor of a “both sides” narrative to the degree you are doing. We are talking about a genocide here and you are saying the people trying to stop it are crazy, violent hateful extremists who are obsessed with hurting trans people for no reason, fucking over women and taking power away from everybody but white men.
“You have to finish up your war. You have to finish it up. You’ve got to get it done,” he said in an interview with Israeli newspaper Israel Hayom. “We’ve got to get to peace. You can’t have this going on, and I will say Israel has to be very careful because you are losing a lot of the world. You are losing a lot of support.”
What the fuck kind of argument is this? Courts aren't supposed to play politics, they are supposed to enforce the law. And if you want to do that in a genocide case you have to prove intent. Gallant made several public statements that can interpreted in that way.
This guy is playing politics. If he wasn't he'd just put in the paperwork instead of sitting down for an interview with CNN.
See how Jack Smith, a serious prosecutor rolls. There are very few press conferences and they are concise and to the point.
This guy is playing games to get publicity, he's probably working on a book deal or whatever right now to monetize the publicity.
Strange timing comes the day after the Iranian leadership are wiped out in an alleged accident.
It was an ancient salvaged U.S. helicopter flying in terrible weather. I don't think we need to start inventing conspiracy theories.
General Fog, the lesser known cousin of General Winter, is responsible.
Also, leaders and billionaires have a real hard time when people say no to them. Even when it is immutable things like weather causing the no.
ah, the fog of war
People’s take on this stuff always seems so naive to me. All war ever can be viewed as an attempt to arrest the leader of another group for “crimes”. When you get arrested… that means you lost the war. Winning a war means you didn’t get arrested.
The ICC is such a silly stupid waste of human attention. It’s like an idea that children came up with after watching Star Trek. It has no utility whatsoever for our species. We fight, we have winners and losers. If you start a fight with somebody stronger than you, you are gonna have a bad time. If you start a fight with someone weaker than you, others will think you are dishonorable. That doesn’t mean you get arrested.
Yeah you have no idea what the ICC is or what it does, nor what this warrant implies. You really believe that the ICC has done nothing? You should do some reading.
This warrant won't go away and the countries that this guy can still visit with this warrant will b extremely limited. This also puts much more pressure on Israel as he is now officially lumped in with other convicted war criminals. This is a good thing (tm)
This interpretation is a vague apologia for war crimes. This line of thinking means the Nuremberg Trials were a complete waste of time and the Nazis should not be held accountable.
No, it means they were ONLY held accountable because they lost the war.
Nobody prosecuted Churchill for Dresden
Israel is losing?
ICC signatories have to arrest anyone with a warrant against them if they visit that country. That severely limits the number of state visits Netanyahu and others with warrants against them can make. That's not a minor thing. Big deals are made during state visits.
Anybody who tries to arrest him will be at war with Israel and probably the US and probably a lot of other nations. They will break their treaty with ICC before they start that war and everyone fucking knows it. Why do we pretend?
And yet this stopped Putin from going to South Africa.
Putting out arrest warrants on both of them is so smart. It's a way to avoid people claiming they are taking sides or playing favorites or aiding terrorists or being in favor of genocide or whatever. Both leaders are culpable because both the IDF and Hamas have committed atrocities.
It is a politically savvy and ethically correct move. Really nice when those line up.
There's something satisfying about it.
At least the ICC is willing to do the right thing.
We'll see in time. Also not sure much will be done if they are. Remember the warrant for Putin was placed March of 2023. The impact on Russia so far seems about summed up to be "Putin can't attend a D-Day remembrance, and he probably shouldn't go see the Olympics, which he wouldn't"
On the other hand, Israel is not Russia. Netanyahu's vacation options effectively just dwindled to Israel and the US, with no layovers. The Hamas guys are already living as fugitives so not much changes there.
It would be absurd and unjust to issue a warrant for only one of them. This was the right thing to do.
I agree, and I found it interesting that Israeli leaders were not accused of genocide or anything to do with their bombing campaign. Instead, it was the specific war crime of causing starvation due to their interference with humanitarian aid and food delivery. Kind of provides additional context for the US decision to build a floating pier off the Gaza coast.
It's much easier to say that an intentional blockade of food is leading to starvation, and that is a clear war crime. Very simple argument, easier to prove.
Talking about a bombing campaign is more difficult when soldiers are mixed in with the civilians. We may be able to point at the situation and say "that's clearly fucked up", but courts don't work that way. They have to acknowledge that in a war, the army is allowed to destroy the combatants of the enemy. A certain amount of collateral damage in the form of innocent lives lost is allowed by international law. This makes it all much murkier and more difficult to prove what is or is not a genuine war crime. They can't wing it, or guess, or go by what it "looks like", they have to prove it, which again, is difficult.
Starvation and depriving food aid though, very easy to prove.
yeh but in today's age of videos and drones everywhere it should be fairly easy to prove.
before all the AI video lets loose anyways
That is Genocide, the UN tries not to use the general term whenever possible, and instead use the specific method of genocide. That way it's a lot harder to No True Scotsman the issue. but If I remember correctly they also charged Extinction and Murder. Then in the supporting documents they talk about systematic bombing and creation of a famine.
No, genocide is an Article 6 charge. The ICC is perfectly willing to use that term, and in fact has explicitly charged Omar al Bashir with genocide under Article 6.
In contrast, Netanyahu and Hamas leaders are accused under Articles 7 and 8. These articles respectively cover "Crimes against humanity" and "War crimes", but they do not include genocide.
Both Netanyahu and Hamas leaders are accused of "crimes against humanity of murder and extermination" under Article 7.
Netanyahu is also accused of "intentionally using starvation of civilians" under Article 8, whereas Hamas leaders are also accused of "rape and other forms of sexual violence" under Article 8.
There are currently no charges based on the Israeli bombing campaign, but the ICC says this is "actively being investigated."
The CNN headline is a bit misleading. It's not the International Criminal Court as a whole that is seeking these arrest warrants but the ICC's chief prosecutor Karim Khan. The judges have yet to decide on these warrants.
[Side note: This is the same kind of lazy journalism that uses terms like EU chief or EU leader interchangeably for the President of the European Commission (Ursula von der Leyen) and the President of the European Council (Charles Michel). If this was limited to a short headline, I could excuse it, but CNN continues with the same wording in the first sentence of the article: "The International Criminal Court is seeking arrest warrants for ..." which is absolutely unnecessary, even if CNN clarifies things later.]
I've always considered CNN to stand for Clearly Not News
Edit - the BBC headline starts "ICC prosecutor seeks arrest of..."
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3ggpe3qj6wo
Ok, this is very interesting. How is it he took this initiative? Actually, is it an initiative or part of the process?
It's part of the process. Now the request is before judges who will decide whether or not to issue the arrest warrants. For reference, when an ICC prosecutor asked for an arrest warrant for Vladmir Putin, it took a couple months for the judges to decide and then issue the warrant.
Yeah, the process is slow but thorough (as it should be since these are among the most difficult cases in existence).
Thank you, good to know!
I know nothing about the process. How can a decision take months? What else are they doing? Are there counter arguments or something happening in the meantime?
The judges have to read and verify the documents they got for this case. This takes some weeks to months.
And good thing Putin is rotting in a prison cell right now.
hopefully his helicopter will crash into the foggy mountains or his train to china/north korea will derail
Trains do not derail in North Korea. It is forbidden.
Modern Journalism, and I use that term loosely, at work. Once you notice these kinds of misleading to incorrect headlines you can't stop seeing them.
I think that's a distinction without a difference. How would the ICC seek an arrest warrant if not by having the chief prosecutor submit one? If the court had approved it, the title would be "arrest warrant issued by ICC".
Biden can't save him, because we wouldn't agree to the Rome act because we thought that somehow meant we couldn't be charged at the Hauge for our war crimes. That's not true tho, we don't have to agree to it.
I mean… yes you do, since that’s a little bit how international law works? Countries who do not sign and ratify the Rome statute and then remain in there aren’t governed by the ICC in the same way.
You will see in the excerpt you quoted, the reason the ICC believes it has jurisdiction is because of events taking place in Palestine, which has taken part in the Rome Statute previously.
And the United States has a law that says it will militarily invade The Hague if any US service member is arrested and held by the court. It came about along with all the other legislative bullshit in the years after 9/11/01. The US had previously been a founding member of the ICC, but withdrew for reasons of sovereignty.
Sovereignity, my ass. They just don't want war crimes committed by their own military investigated by an independent body.
Correct.
That position and sovereignty are not mutually opposed, depending on the view you take towards international law.
Hittem with that "sovereignty to do what?"
International law gets weird. Tradition is absolutely a legitimate way for something to get recognized. That works because of Sovereignty and the intense political nature of anything between countries. So basically, if someone got an Israeli to the Hague, then the Netherlands could point at the decades of precedent for the moral high ground in refusing to release them. Whether that works depends on politics and what people think. So just because we didn't sign the paper does not mean we can resist it forever. If the world wants to head in that direction, the best we can do is dig our feet in and make it take longer.
And no sane US president would use the Hague Invasion Act. It's an open question if the military would even follow the order. that would require invading a NATO ally with strong defense systems tied into their neighbors. It would be a great way to obliterate our world standing in one fell swoop.
US law doesn’t say that it WILL it says that it CAN. As an American I’d be wayyyy beyond pissed off if we did I to rescue fucking Bibi.
By your logic the nazis shouldn't have been tried at the Hauge...
Is that what youre intentionally saying? Or did you not think it through?
Like even this bit:
If no US service member could be tried at the Hauge because the US didn't sign the Rome agreement...
Why pass a law saying we're not subject to it?
And when did Bibi join the US military anyways?
I missed that one...
First: it’s not my logic. It’s how this part of international law works. The International Criminal Court wasn’t created until 1998, and the statute that governs it only officially came into power in 2002. Not all countries have signed, and some (including the US) have withdrawn from it. This means that technically the ICC doesn’t have any jurisdiction over things that happen within its territory.
The US codified it into a domestic law because it doesn’t believe its should be beholden to any law higher than its domestic ones, and the United States often does shady things in countries where the ICC does have jurisdiction, making it a risk that US citizens (and leaders) can be arrested for crimes that occur there. So the US Congress wrote domestic policy stating that it reserved the right to invade if its citizens were held for trial.
And Bibi didn’t join the US military. But the US has shown it’s willing to support his administration through an awful lot of shit, and the US doesn’t have any ambiguity about how it regards the ICC.
Finally, are you referring to the Nuremberg trials? Nazis weren’t tried in The Hague court we are discussing, and I’m not sure any nazi trials happened there at all.
Edit: I don’t understand the downvotes. This is literally just how the International Criminal Court works.
Well that's not true. Our Constitution clearly places treaties above domestic law.
...
https://www.roberthjackson.org/speech-and-writing/the-influence-of-the-nuremberg-trial-on-international-criminal-law/
I think that will help you understand
Yes, the origin of one of the international courts in The Hague, specifically the one that prosecutes individuals, the International Criminal Court, comes from the Nuremberg Trials. I never disputed that lineage. Those nazi trials happened in Nuremberg, not The Hague, and before the ICC existed.
The ICC was created in 2002, just FYI. So long after the Nuremberg Trials. And the ICJ predates Nuremberg via its predecessor entities.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court
You're meaningfully correct in everything you're saying though. Just saying this for full context
Thanks for clarifying, I’m aware of that and I think I made mention to that date in my initial reply.
What you quoted was just referring to the article the other poster linked, which goes through how the Nuremberg trials were the primary venue of defining the four major crimes against humanity, and how it impacted the creation of the ICC later.
I am obviously having a hard time articulating my point here, though. I’m literally just trying to explain a little bit about how this particular facet of an international legal regime works.
Fun fact about the ICJ, though: the USA withdrew from the court after it was found guilty of mining Nicaragua illegally. I really wish it did more to actually follow the legal norms it tried to push in its ideology.
Edit: mixed up ICJ and ICC at the end.
Nice that they see the criminals on both sides.
Same side.
Hamas is almost totally funded by Benny and his croneys.
Was I think, they stopped a few years ago.
This is a conspiracy theory with no actual evidence
Wow, whitewashing Iran and Qatar's role in Hamas' actions. Very progressive left of you.
Boo hoo, did the homegrown terrorist org funded by state interest as a propaganda machine get outta hand?
At this point, which one?
I'm interested in sticking to the facts. If you aren't, that's fine. I can block and move on with my day.
Man you are talking about whitewashing as you actively try to shift blame from the inceptor and then try and say your talking about facts.
Fact of the matter is that palastinian terrorism is caused by Israel. Both their genocidal and apartheid ends and directly through funding of groups like Hamas early in their years to promote harsh measures to continue their genocide and apartheid ends.
"Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu defended Israel's regular allowing of Qatari funds to be transferred into Gaza, saying it is part of a broader strategy to keep Hamas and the Palestinian Authority separate, a source in Monday's Likud faction meeting said," the Post reported.
But nah. You wanna deflect facts and focus on Qatar like everyone doesn't already know that. This information is ment to be taken in conjunction but your so far up your own ass you see it as an argument and whitewashing.
You want facts? Facts say Israel funded Hamas. Nurtured it and kept it on the edge of scary to propagandize it's civilian population. Then it bit them in the ass on Oct 7th.
If your first thought about hamas isn't how Israel as a state purposely created and maintained it then it's you who isn't operating on facts.
Do you actually understand what you are posting yourself? Qatar funded Hamas under an agreement with Bibi which enabled Bibis strategy and Qatars own political goals. Did Israel fund Hamas in those years? No. Did Israel actively guarantee that Qatar funds Hamas? Yes.
Man walks in here waving his post around like I GOT HIM, I GOT HIM SO GOOD as he points out the content of the article like i don't know what it says. Nah dude. I know what it says, I call that funding. You would too if your head was so far up your own ass.
Lol, I don't support Israel in this conflict.
Who gives a shit what you support? Your being a dummy for attention at this point.
Rage addiction, huh?
Your a joke so now we joking.
You're and we're, but otherwise that was a correct sentence.
Your still a joke and we still joking. See if your going to be a pedant, you have to be correct about shit. If your a stubborn incorrect pedant than correcting some Grammer is just silly. But you is a silly person. Couldn't care less about the conversation anymore, you just wanna save face.
On the Internet you wanna save face after getting d u n k e d.
Oh no. Watch out everyone, this guy's gonna stick to the facts by checks notes plugging his ears and walking away.
If it is a fact that Israel is paying for Hamas and Iran and Qatar aren't, it will be very easy for you to prove that.
I will wait.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/netanyahu-israel-gaza-hamas-1.7010035
Oh nooo, did someone open their fucking mouth about shit they don't know about and are about to get dunked on?
"Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu defended Israel's regular allowing of Qatari funds to be transferred into Gaza, saying it is part of a broader strategy to keep Hamas and the Palestinian Authority separate, a source in Monday's Likud faction meeting said," the Post reported.
Netanyahu's current finance minister, West Bank settler Belazel Smotrich, explained the approach to Israel's Knesset channel in 2015: "Hamas is an asset, and (Palestinian Authority leader) Abu Mazen (Mahmoud Abbas) is a burden."
"Both Egypt and Qatar are angry with Hamas and planned to cut ties with them. Suddenly Netanyahu appears as the defender of Hamas," the right-wing leader complained.
A year later, Netanyahu was further embarrassed when photos of suitcases full of cash going to Hamas became public. Liberman finally resigned in protest over Netanyahu's Hamas policy which, he said, marked "the first time Israel is funding terrorism against itself."
Where specifically in the article does it say that Israel is fully funding Hamas and Qatar and Iran aren't?
Pedantic af. Where's it say on your license that you gotta be such a baby?
That doesn't even make sense as a bullying attempt.
that was really trivially easy
I'm sure bibi did that out of the spirit of charity.
Look, as far as I can tell, Israel created a monster, then lost control of the monster. The monster has since found other sources of support. In trying to perform ethnic cleansing and forced land transfers over the last 80ish years, they have also been monstrous. There is wicked evil on both sides of this pointless genocidal war. Stop plugging your ears to the parts that make the people you happen to already agree with look bad.
I'm not sure I understand how these warrants can take place. It will come from other member states in case any of them travel there?
Also how is it that Putin has not been arrested yet? Has he avoided those destinations.
If I misunderstood something or everything, please let me know.
Yes, Putin has avoided those destinations so far. He even got warned by South Africa that they’d have to arrest him if he were to travel to a meeting there.
Thank you for the clarification!
They can't make a country arrest it's own leader.
But if they travel to any UN country, the country is supposed to arrest them, or coordinate with countries willing to.
So these are more like an exile than anything.
Kind of like a sanction but instead of money it's on personal travel.
Sanctions are still waaaaaay more effective though and what we should be doing. Money is what these despots care about.
so this also means that if netanyahu loses elections, he can be just sent to hague
If the person who beats him wants too...
And if Netenyahu even lets Israel have elections. Before 10/7 he was already in the process of getting kicked out of office, the only reason he's still in power is 10/7.
is 10/7 like the new 9/11 (in terms of abbreviation)?
Only to countries that are part of the ICC. Many countries, including the US, aren't a part so Netanyahu can safely travel to those places.
Technically any member state, but they wouldn't refuse him if a non member state arrested him too. And I say technically because there's a few member states that support him and would likely not arrest him.
Good, this is a situation in which both sides are both truly disgusting and vile, using people as pawns, shields, etc.
Yeah, for some reason too many people are having difficulty understanding that in this case, yes, the both side argument works quite well. Both Hamas and the Israeli government are horrible with the citizens on both side suffering
It's worth clarifying that the Palestinian civilians are not Hamas though. It's also misleading to say they elected them democratically, as the median Palestinian was a literal infant when the last election happened, and nearly half weren't even born.
I'm counting Palestinian civilians separate from Hamas, just like the Israeli government is t the same as it's people
Definitely agree. Although I will add that Israel has likely played a large part in radicalizing many members of Hamas and their actions in Palestine have dwarfed the initial Hamas attack, no atrocity should go unpunished.
Both points are valid so yeah, both are bad to the point that both groups should be tried by the ICC and be locked away for life, all of them
And both sides are equally pissed off being put on the same level as the others.
Regardless of the technicalities and nuances in the reporting: this is a good thing.
Can we talk about a story that's fallen through the cracks here? CNN claiming this as an exclusive is madness. Who do these people think they are? And should the ICC issue arrest warrants about it? 😉
That's an excellent point you're making
EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW
Have anyone opened the link?
They changed it to that considerably less bonkers headline. Perhaps because they became of aware of their legal exposure under international laws against poor taste...? 🧐
Also, not sure if just me, but I couldn't give a flying fuck whether a news outlet is first to break a story or not. Seems a bit self conglatulatory
All the better to control the narrative if you can DCMA the rest?
Is Giuliani behind this tact?
Let's check what the left wing "progressive" israelis think about this.
It's not comparing them, they have just all went over the bar for being war criminals.
Herein lies one of the innumerable differences between democratic socialists and liberals
More links
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3ggpe3qj6wo
https://apnews.com/article/icc-khan-netanyahu-070941d21ccd1f2b9611032b88527575
Fucking hell got so confused by the title, was wondering what the fuck do these guys have to do with cricket.
The cricket council honestly has more chance of bringing any of these cunts to justice than the real ICC.
I mean fucking Kony is still on the list, and I forget how long ago that was a thing, and he was on their list long before that.
I finally "learned" the rules of cricket, and now understand why Americans created baseball. A game takes a fucking week‽‽ We don't have time for that shit!
iirc Hitler had it banned from Germany after learning the week long match against England ended with no result lmao.
Anyways that's the test cricket format. The typical game is ODI which lasts about 7 hours, and the world cup happening this June is T20I which lasts 2.5 hours and is the most exciting to watch.
There are one day matches too.
same could be said about NBA, MLB, and NHL playoffs
Those games are completely different from cricket. Baseball has some pretty close similarities to cricket
They've already called it antisemitic.
ICC is hamas
You mean "they did it first" doesn't hold up in international court?
Biden saying the right things as usual. /s
It's true. Hamas is posting rookie numbers. They've got to up their death count by around 10x before they can be in Israel's league.
At this point they need to gag the man and have surrogates stump for him.
Calling on the militant branch of the Yang Gang?
It’s a good thing that he’s not President and this is all Trump’s fault. /s
Yeah, Trump certainly helped stabilize the area by moving the Embassy. And that mid-east peace plan his SIL got paid $2 billion for was worth every cent.
Haha, just mention Trump and you guys show up. We're not pro Trump.
Anyone else thinks these two look remarkably similar?
I think it's mainly the eyebrows they way they're pointed up in roughly the same spot.
Doesn't seem as much beyond that to me
Haggered
Haguerd
Oh boy, I can’t wait to see the reactions of politicians of the “free world” that prevented anyone to say anything against Israel for years on the pretext of antisemitism.
Especially that useless POS of Emanuel Macron, our infamous president.
Sinwar in a war of sin. Kinda poetic
This is the first one they have issued to a non-Africans, right?
Putin and another Russian, Maria, have been indicted as well, according to Wikipedia
There's also open cases against Putin's puppets in Georgia for the invasion of South Ossetia.
Oh wow. TIL
Slobodan Milošević was put to trial under a parallel organization, the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. The ICC didn't exist yet when the ICTY was founded.
Sloby died in jail before coming to a verdict.
FFS so Netanyahu was extremely close to being pushed out of power and this dumbass pulls this stunt (just to get publicity) which only makes it easy for Netanyahu to make the case that "it's us against the world". He's also seeking to prosecute Gallant, the guy that would most likely make the push to remove Netanyahu. So he's pushing Gallant back towards falling back in line with Natanyahu.
Does this idiot want Netanyahu to stay in power? He's basically throwing a lifeline to Bibi while throwing away the credibility of the ICC. Never attribute to malice and all that, so likely just a moron.
Fuck, I was starting to have some hope the Netanyahu could be gone in the next few weeks and this guy is pulling out all the stops to keep him in power. All to get his face on TV.
The position of support for creating a famine (or not giving a shit to stop it) seems to have wider support than just Bibi. This guy's move puts in focus that creating a famine is a war crime, and he's forcing the Israelis players to face that and state their support or lack thereof clearly. Getting rid of Bibi alone might not increase the aid in Gaza. If the other party leaders aren't willing to throw Bibi and Gallant under the bus for this and/or shift gears on aid, then perhaps the Israeli political class is too far gone and the world should increase the pressure till someone gets it and starts telling the Israeli public that what's happening is wrong and is extremely counterproductive for Israel as whole.
Also, some polling shows Bibi's coalition being neck and neck with the alternative so the narrative that Bibi is certain to be ejected by Israel's democracy isn't so solid.
Israel asked for help from Arab countries in providing support in dealing with the humanitarian crisis. They laughed in the Israelis faces.
The problem is too many people are willing to let the Palestinians die in order to win some propaganda war against Israel. I don't feel like anyone really cares about Palestinians. They'd rather Palestinians die so they can have proof Israel is evil.
Joe Biden has built a pier to provide aid. This is more than anyone else has done to prevent famine. But the propaganda says he's "Genocide Joe".
What are you talking about.. Arab countries didn't stop food and water going into Gaza, Israel's leadership did.
They were asked to help distribute food and refused. Just something you're not you seeing in your information silo.
I've seen stickers around the town where I live calling him "Jihad Joe" for helping the Palestinians. He gets hate coming and going, meanwhile thousands of tons of aid are reaching the people of Gaza because of him.
Really. Really? Disinformation is easily disproved.
The pier is having trouble getting aid past the Israeli offensive, but over 1000 tons have already been airdropped, and once logistics are worked out for the pier it's expected to deliver 500 tons of aid per day.
Well, this didn’t age well…
I've always said the Pro-Palestine crowd and the MAGAs are basically the same people. Gotta ignore anything that doesn't conform to whichever narrative they've gotten sucked into.
Why because you are an ideologically bankrupt centrist that finds it convenient to equate protestors desperately trying to stop a genocide with MAGA heads… who tried to violently overthrow the US government because it wasn’t hateful enough for them?
You aren’t welcome in the progressive coalition if you desire to ignore reality in favor of a “both sides” narrative to the degree you are doing. We are talking about a genocide here and you are saying the people trying to stop it are crazy, violent hateful extremists who are obsessed with hurting trans people for no reason, fucking over women and taking power away from everybody but white men.
Donald Trump
What the fuck kind of argument is this? Courts aren't supposed to play politics, they are supposed to enforce the law. And if you want to do that in a genocide case you have to prove intent. Gallant made several public statements that can interpreted in that way.
This guy is playing politics. If he wasn't he'd just put in the paperwork instead of sitting down for an interview with CNN.
See how Jack Smith, a serious prosecutor rolls. There are very few press conferences and they are concise and to the point.
This guy is playing games to get publicity, he's probably working on a book deal or whatever right now to monetize the publicity.
Strange timing comes the day after the Iranian leadership are wiped out in an alleged accident.
It was an ancient salvaged U.S. helicopter flying in terrible weather. I don't think we need to start inventing conspiracy theories.
General Fog, the lesser known cousin of General Winter, is responsible.
Also, leaders and billionaires have a real hard time when people say no to them. Even when it is immutable things like weather causing the no.
ah, the fog of war
People’s take on this stuff always seems so naive to me. All war ever can be viewed as an attempt to arrest the leader of another group for “crimes”. When you get arrested… that means you lost the war. Winning a war means you didn’t get arrested.
The ICC is such a silly stupid waste of human attention. It’s like an idea that children came up with after watching Star Trek. It has no utility whatsoever for our species. We fight, we have winners and losers. If you start a fight with somebody stronger than you, you are gonna have a bad time. If you start a fight with someone weaker than you, others will think you are dishonorable. That doesn’t mean you get arrested.
Yeah you have no idea what the ICC is or what it does, nor what this warrant implies. You really believe that the ICC has done nothing? You should do some reading.
This warrant won't go away and the countries that this guy can still visit with this warrant will b extremely limited. This also puts much more pressure on Israel as he is now officially lumped in with other convicted war criminals. This is a good thing (tm)
This interpretation is a vague apologia for war crimes. This line of thinking means the Nuremberg Trials were a complete waste of time and the Nazis should not be held accountable.
No, it means they were ONLY held accountable because they lost the war.
Nobody prosecuted Churchill for Dresden
Israel is losing?
ICC signatories have to arrest anyone with a warrant against them if they visit that country. That severely limits the number of state visits Netanyahu and others with warrants against them can make. That's not a minor thing. Big deals are made during state visits.
Anybody who tries to arrest him will be at war with Israel and probably the US and probably a lot of other nations. They will break their treaty with ICC before they start that war and everyone fucking knows it. Why do we pretend?
And yet this stopped Putin from going to South Africa.