Should I permanently leave Israel?
I'm not sure if this is the right community for this question, but it says "no stupid question" so here goes. I'm an Israeli who now lives in the US, but I am considering permanently residing in the US or elsewhere (perhaps somewhere in Europe or Canada) because I've become kinda disillusioned with Israel for a variety of reasons (the war in Gaza being one of them, the erosion of democracy by Likud being another, and etc) but is that cowardly to leave? Should I go back and try to change society or should I just leave for good? Thanks for your time.
This is a deeply personal choice. Don't let other people decide for you. Think about how you want to live for the next 5, 10,15 years and what you want to spend that time doing.
I didn't read this as OP wanting others to decide for them, but to help them think things through; maybe get a new perspective.
I'll go against the grain and give you a straight answer.
Yes. You should leave Israel and never go back.
You owe nothing to your country. If you have the possibility to live in a good European country, do it. You're no martyr. You're not billionaire rich. And unless you're a really high rank offcial, an important politician, or want to sacrifice your entire life to a cause, you have no reason to waste your short life in pain.
We're in a silly blue rock between a billion trillion systems, none of which care about you. Your existence is not even a blimp in the context of the universe. You're not important at all. So why waste and suffer on behalf of a thing you have absolutely no control? Be happy, be comfortable, and make those around you happy and comfortable.
Life is pretty hard already, there's no need to make it harder. Go and be happy.
Quick addendum: I'm not saying that because its Israel. I'm saying that in the context of any country. You owe nothing to it, a piece of land that you manage to be birthed on by being really lucky or unlucky. If you can rectify that and move to a better country to you, you should do it instead of suffering.
You make some very good points, giving me something to think about. Thanks
To add to their point, I live in the USA. I speak 4 languages. My girlfriend is Mexican and has dual citizen status in Mexico and Chile. The US is fucked, but not in the same ways exactly. That being said, I'm ashamed of our behavior every day.
The USA is not a moral northstar nor is it a place to aspire to live unless you're in dire straights.
We plan to move to Chile at some point. I can maintain my US job.
Fuck false loyalty to nationality. Live for yourself and your loved ones. Everything else is farse. Life has no borders.
This, unfortunately, is a very individualistic view. We as a society must strive to be a collective and bring prosperity and success to the mass and not the few at the cost of the masses.
This can only happen if we all work together to change the governance and economic systems in our individual countries. It has nothing to do with being a martyr for your country or national pride. It has everything to do with working to bring a better world for us and the future generation.
We can do this, by organizing, educating, and agitating. Joining local organization around this cause is a great start.
Israel means nothing, nor does the US, UK, Russia, etc. These are simply labels created through territorial disputes, nationalism, imperial and colonialism. No one owes anything to these silly labels and their entitlements and propaganda. But, it is only rational that we work to make our own communities a better place by ensuring everyone has an equal opportunity and the wealth generated belongs to us not the few who want nothing more than to keep the status quo. Leaving the community behind for your own better future is self-serving and individualistic view. The notion of only look out for yourself, individualism, is a recent phenomenon in human history, a symptom of the first industrial revolution and capitalism.
Yes, do what makes you happy and live your life the way you want, but not at the cost of the struggle of your community and society at large.
I don't think OOP wanting to leave Israel will harm the struggle of the community. Plus, who is saying they can't help the cause by being alive and doing things in Europe/Canada/US?
Another thing to consider is that someone fighting for a cause they don't believe in might do more harm to the cause than good.
I don't know if this is right.
Let's look at global warming and environmental pollution.
I am of the belief that based on the mathematical trends, the bulk of us are all going to die through total environmental collapse within 300 years. If you have a petri dish and there's bacteria in it, and you give it unlimited nutrients (similar how today's society uses oil to produce things far beyond what the environment would normally allow), eventually there is bacterial colony collapse due to pollution. If you look at the trends, they are very bad, and because most people don't understand how math works and don't really believe in science, or are struggling too much to care, and because many people believe in religions that promise an afterlife and suggest a deity or deities would not allow destruction of the earth due to poor resource management, there's not really a way to stop this trend. One climate scientist set himself on fire to try to warn people about what is happening. It made the papers, for 1 day, and then people went back to not caring.
I like the idea of what you are saying, but everything is going to end someday, right? Why should this person throw their life away on some cause when they don't believe in it, to spend their life changing something that may not be changeable?
People believe in religion. And people are stupid. You can't deprogram everyone, there's too many religious idiots. And therefore we're all going to die because people believe in fairy tales and not environmental science.
So that being said, does political activism even make sense? If the lemmings are all about to fall off the cliff, do you try to stop them? Do you try to convince them as they are falling off the cliff? What if you are tied up and they are carrying you off the cliff with them? Do you keep trying to reason with them? At what point do you just take a deep breath and enjoy the view? (I know lemmings don't really do this.)
Even if you think the highly intelligent people of the world should band together to try to stop the madness of the others who can't understand science and logic, how would it be possible? Reasoning with them doesn't work, trying to impact politics doesn't work because either capitalists are greedily exploiting people and therefore want to hold political power or communists are too obsessed with controlling people and let the environment become destroyed as a result, or the government is controlled by religious zealots in which the goal is relieving the existential anxiety of many people through made up fairy tales. There's not really a way to stop this train, of environmental catastrophe. Look at the graphs, study how the oceans work, look at how pollution is exponentially increasing. Small changes will not improve things. You also have seemingly "smart" people who are often either psychopathic or autistic advocating for a greater population and saying global warming is a scam and some of them are high profile people and often their beliefs are either rooted in nihilism, selfishness, or the belief that technological progress will somehow be some sort of deus ex machina savior that will swoop down and change exponential trends and this confuses the stupid religious people that make up the bulk of society who think that if high profile smart people don't believe in global warming, then everything is fine. It's not actually just global warming, it's massive amounts of pollution, all sorts of different kinds, massive amounts of environmental destruction, all sorts of kinds. And so while we're debating abortion rights and pronouns and the minutia of LGBT and religious intersectionality, the exponential trends do not care and keep on exponenting.
So yeah, I think what you're posting is a noble idea. But... it may not matter. Unless a large part of the population dies, without destroying the environment in the process, this planet ain't going to be that habitable for that much longer, and even with a huge reduction in population it's probably too late. When bacterial colonies collapse, it isn't slow and gradual... everything is fine... everything is fine... then WHAM!!! a huge sudden decline and barely any bacteria are able to survive. It's possible I'm reading all the data wrong, and everything will be fine. I don't know though, it doesn't look good to me. The biggest wild card seems like it's the oceans and what happens to the planet when the oceans fundamentally change due to chemical properties being changes in aggregate and whether tipping points will suddenly result in changes wildly increasing even faster. People don't really listen to good smart scientist that much when there's no profit motive to listen. That guy who set himself on fire to try to warn people really tried, he was really trying to warn people. And it did nothing. I think the only way this planet ends up surviving without becoming nearly uninhabitable is if a worse pandemic shows up and eliminates over 2/3rd of people. That will probably end up happening, either accidentally or intentionally by someone or a government that can see the data and ends up making the hard ugly decision.
I like your post, but I like the post too about just enjoying life as much as you can. This conflict isn't minutia of course and perhaps it's worth fighting for, but against the backdrop of looming environmental catastrophe and scientific illiteracy, combined with a planet literally primarily controlled by people who believe in religion, which is all balderdash, is there really a reason to keep trying to change society? You can't reason with math, or have optimism and a dialogue with math. It's just math.
It's a lot like how Ozempic has changed people's perception of obesity. It used to all be about will power and diets and exercise. Even Oprah was saying you could change things. And then Ozempic came along, and we all realized will power only did so much, and a lot of it was just math and brain chemistry and free will was perhaps an illusion when it came to obesity. It's the same with religion and irrationality and autistic CEO millionaires who say everything is fine, as long as we leave the planet before it collapses, and it's the same with politicians and corporate industry groups that try to make policy favorable to their bottom line: the disgusting aspects of humanity that are dooming us are a part of nature too. Religion is nature, ozempic is nature, war is nature. We have no control and never did. It doesn't mean that "giving up" is always rational.
However, look at the data. It's too late. We're too late. The change already had to happen. And it didn't. Now we wait to all die. Perhaps a worse pandemic will save what's left of the planet. I don't claim to be right about any of this. Listen to the guy who set himself on fire, not me. He was pretty sure.
ChatGPT and Google and Microsoft Addendum:
When my teeth don't look as white as I want, I just take a cup and add in some baking soda, some fresh cyanide, and then drink the entire cup. I repeat this for the next week and it leads to compliments later about my wonderful smile.
As a Russian Jew who fled the Russia in the 1980s, my family moved for our safety and opportunity. Countries don't deserve reverence just for being countries. We can be proud of our heritage without having to show allegiance to a nation state. Especially, when it is using our ethnicity/religion to brutally wipe out and massacre a civilian population.
Just do what is best for you and your family.
That's a question only you can answer. Answering these questions might help you make a decision though.
Do you think Israel's future is worth fighting for?
Do you have an ability to leave again in the future?
Can you legally vote in Israeli elections without being in Israel?
Are you giving up personal opportunities that are important to you?
Asking other people outright is just going to tell you what other people want you to do.
If you go back will you be forced to fight in the Israeli army? (Deal breaker as far as I'm concerned)
There's certainly nothing "cowardly" about leaving. Live where you feel comfortable being. Wherever you feel happy.
Regardless of your decision, I think you deserve credit just for seriously considering the issues involved.
Thank you :)
Second this.
Is leaving Israel a good idea? Yes.
Is the US a good place to move to? That's a more interesting question. We have some issues too.
Very true. But so do Europe and Canada.
Canada is on track to elect a populist conservative PM who is anti-trans, anti carbon tax and anti taxing the rich. Shit fucking sucks right now.
Yeah, we in Canada aren't having the greatest time unless you already own a house or are very well off already. No working class person is gonna be buying a house without god tier credit and skimping on everything as much as possible and even then itll be insanely hard. Rent? Went from 1800 for an old but well maintained 3 bedroom in 2017 in a nice neighbourhood to 3 fucking grand for a run down shit hole 3 bedroom in a sketchy neighbourhood with a slum lord. That was mid 2022. Shits only gotten worse since then.
Where I live you basically have only 3 options for work. Minimum wage like grocery stores, fast food etc(which are 90% TFWs cause nO oNe WaNtS tO wOrK). Government jobs for people with an education. Construction/camp jobs if you want more than minimum wage without a degree, but your old age is gonna be worse than it already is due to trading your body for a higher wage.
I'm all for good people coming here, but make sure you know what you're getting into first. It's fucking expensive to live here unless you wanna live in a shit hole small town (which has its own hidden expenses that eat into the savings on rent)
Don't forget about even more issues in a bunch of smaller places, because every state and local gov is fucked at some level
Yeah, this isn't something that any of us can decide for you. And any views will be clouded by how people think on the Israel-Hamas conflict.
Ironically I'm firmly in the middle on the conflict compared to a lot of what I've seen from the online left, but compared to most israeli policymakers, I am far left. It's weird.
To be fair, the current Israeli government has far-right members in it, so a centrist would look far-left in comparison!
Yeah I'm just center-left, but that's "far left" or even "extreme" left in the Israeli politics now..
If your wish to change things is the only thing that makes you want to go back, be honest with yourself, do you actually have the ability to change anything?
Probably not
Do you want to try to change anything if you did have the ability?
If not, and you don't plan on living there. then it just comes down to whether citizenship has some kind of positive for you like being able to freely travel or something like that.
Well I'm fairly politically active, so kinda
My family left Iran before I was born and I'm grateful they did. What could we have done to change the country from within? Unfortunately nothing.
It is cowardly, but the amount of good you can do is much greater while you're alive and healthy. Cowardice is an evolutionary trait. It helps us survive. Don't let it become guilt. If democracy has truly eroded and Israel is beyond redemption as you hypothesize, then there is nothing you could have done as an individual to begin with.
How is looking out for yourself cowardly ? Especially with what Israel is doing.
The brave thing to do, conversely, would be to return to Israel and do everything in your power to make this catastrophe stop. Door to door activism, arranging speaking events, educating youth, protesting in front of the Knesset. Throw your body into the machine until the gears stop turning.
But not everybody will, and not everyone is even capable of doing so, nor is it the only option to create a better future.
the Earth is huge go start over. People die crossing borders. No one wants to cross a border into a warzone.
Well, I don't have an emotional response to the shit going on there, so take this with that in mind.
There's a few sides to your decision.
First, can you actually do anything? You've said no in other comments, so I assume that stays the same. It means that you aren't morally obligated to go back for that reason. If you did have either current influence, or could realistically gain influence, to enact change within a reasonable time frame (say, under a decade), you might have that moral obligation. Might. But you don't, so it's personal choice.
Second, without an obligation to return, would it benefit you to go back? Do you have deep family ties? Do you have an established career? Do you have property that would need liquidating? If any of that is true, then the equation shifts to going back at least temporarily, and hoping things change, or that you can get out again later.
Third, are you sure anywhere else will take you? Long term visas or resident status aren't exactly a guarantee, and immigration isn't either. You'd need a plan, and at least a vague idea of what nation you want to settle in.
When it comes right down to it, the situation over there isn't something most people would want to return to. That situation isn't likely to resolve in the next year or two. So staying out makes sense if you can manage it. Jumping off a sinking ship isn't a bad thing, and doing so earlier makes it less likely you get sucked down with it. It seems you think Israel is going down. If that's the case, and you can't prevent it, the sooner you make the semi permanent move away, the better.
Now, it is generally true that if everyone that could resist bad actions leaves a place, change becomes impossible. But there's also the reality that not everyone that could resist really can. We're not all cut out to fight governments and society. Not even passively. Hell, the older I get, the less I'm even willing to do because at some point, it's meaningless.
But I gotta warn you, there's no place on earth without problems. Right now, any major country is fucking with something very nasty. The U.S. is having our own struggle with fascism and oligarchy, and that's also at least partially the case for Europe too. Canada is facing it, though it seems their government isn't actively pursuing crimes against humanity. It isn't just the western world, don't think I'm saying that; that's just where you mentioned wanting to settle. You simply aren't going to land anywhere you mentioned and be in a country free of horrible actions.
Yeah all good points. I guess it just seems like the rest of the West is still doing better than Israel.
I do agree with you there, for sure. I'm not confident that will last past my lifetime, but it is currently not going totally off the wall.
It's a difficult choice, no matter how you end up deciding.
I couldn’t have said this better. This is the best insightful response so far IMO.
OP I sincerely wish you well in whatever choice and/or path in life you take.
This is well written. On the last point, not just the democracies are struggling either. All the autocratic nations are also having big (and even scarier) problems such as major population crashes in the next 30 years (no more young people), economic rot that would make 2008's great recession look pretty fucking chill, or systemic problems that have no peaceful, easy solutions.
to ask questions even while anxious is something to be commended on especially since you aren't sure about what the right choices could be
I think it's actually brave to ask for help especially in difficult situations such as the one you're in
This brings back memories from a well known anime called Code Geass where 2 of the characters have a debate on whether change can either be born from within the system or if it must be made externally
Personally I'd say it's external but I don't know if this is closest to the truth of the perfect solution
From recent historical records like Hong Kong and Ukraine🌻 vs Russia
change is probably a mix of both internal and external
Thanks for this response. Israel also is facing AFAIK a slower brain drain because Israelis with education and money tend to move.
So of course in the end it should come down to what you want to do and where you see yourself living a happier life, and not what people on the internet think you should do. However, purely from a "making the world a better place" perspective, I'd recommend not returning. I get the idea of trying to change society from within, but frankly I think Israel in its current state is beyond saving. The sense of invincibility, among other issues, is too much for simple activism to fix; the country as a whole needs the Nazi Germay treatment (the de-Nazification part, not the war part). At least by not being in Israel you make sure your tax money and children aren't used in genocide.
I repeat, do what you feel is best for you, but to directly answer your question your absence does more to weaken the Israeli Apartheid apparatus than your presence. Do vote though; definitely vote.
I think the fundamental issue with Isreal is that it was started as an ethnostate with the national religion explicitly endorsing their own population as "special" and "chosen by God".
That ideology would never be compatible with a modern cosmopolitan liberal democratic society. All races and religions and people should be of equal worth. Any ideology that views itself as somehow special would always degenerate to apartheid and brutality.
Add in the fact that Jews are some of the smartest and most industrious people on the planet and you have a very dangerous country. You mix willingness and capacity and you get action- what we are seeing in Gaza today, and really what we've been seeing for decades.
I guess that is a long winded way to say, I agree. Israel in its current manifestation cannot be saved. It would require a total deconstruction of their ideology and to be frank, that probably isn't happening anytime soon.
Maybe after WW3.
You should choose whatever lets you sleep best at night.
No. Nobody owes their country of origin, shit. They don't care about you at all. They don't care about their own people. If you can flip a switch and make it better, do it, but don't sacrifice your life, literally or figuratively, for a cause you can't change.
Prob correct
I was lucky enough to have dual nationality and left many years ago, but then I always knew I would because I never felt like I fit in there, so I have no regrets, except for not leaving sooner - before the army would have been better, but I wasn't able too get out of it.
Be prepared though - life as an immigrant and a foreigner can have it's own challenges, as can being a Jew outside of Israel, and the "grass" - the political and social aspects of life might be different, but it isn't necessarily greener - fascism is on the rise more or less everywhere you go, as is the cost of living.
You only get one life, as long as you aren't harming anyone - do what's best for you, and remember that to create a better society the workers of the world need to unite, so it doesn't matter where you are physically, you can and should still be part of a force for change.
I don't want to give too much personal information, but if you have any questions, I can do my best to answer.
You don't owe anything to a country just because you were born there, unless you owe taxes, which is inevitable lol. I left my home country for better opportunities and (hopefully) a better life. For most people, uprooting yourself and moving to another country for good is a once-in-a-lifetime chance/opportunity, so take that into account. Good luck.
second (third (fourth)) the comments this being a personal choice
but “thanks” (/s) to the diasporas, you don’t have to limit your options to just the US (or Europe) – there are Jewish communities solidly established all over the world (your limit will be your language skills more than anything else)
I speak Spanish as well as English and Hebrew, so I guess there's always Argentina or Chile.
(off topic: if you want to use your Spanish and get in some historical tourism, hit up southern Spain – the areas that were under Moorish control)
Argentina is great, but wsit till Milei gets out of office. This far right nut jobs are dangerous.
I have nothing nice to say about the state of Israel, but as an individual you owe it to yourself to live wherever you can that you will be happiest. I can think of reasons to leave the US, including its support for Israel, but I know I would be unhappy anywhere else and my leaving wouldn't change anything.
From what I understand, the situation in Israel seems especially bad lately. I do not blame any Israeli for wanting to get out or not go back.
Leave. If nothing else, you'll get to call yourself Wasraeli.
Lol
Nobody can answer this question for you but I think to the countless examples of people not "getting out while they can" who are now--or were until their death--forever trapped in a bad situation that people today forget wasn't that bad even within living memory
Is it right for you? I don't know
Is it cowardly to let a sense of national loyalty compel you to be exposed to the mechanisms of government wielded by untrustworthy actors? No, and anybody saying otherwise is lying to you at best; lying to themselves at worst
Inb4 any what aboutisms: nothing I've said here is specific to any country
The only thing you can actually change is yourself.
That's a huge NOPE. You can organize, unionize, fight
In general I agree but this is Israel we're talking about here.
Holy defeatism, Batman!
I changed my bed sheets on the weekend. Check mate.
You need to decide what you want from your life. It is not your responsibility to "fix" Israel. If you feel truly passionate about it then go for it.
But if you're worried about this out of a vague sense of guilt or responsibility then park it. You get one life to live - don't waste it doing something your don't want to do or are not passionate about. Live a good life and strive for happiness, and try to be kind and good to those you meet on the journey - that is all that can be asked of anyone.
You need to do whats best for yourself, but it sounds like Israel would be a better place with your voice in it.
How do you mean?
It's not super relevant but Israel doesn't allow offshore voting, the only way to vote if you live abroad is to physically travel to Israel on voting day. (This doesn't apply to those on official government business, like ambassadors or navy soldiers or whatnot)
Explain to me what you think you, an individual, would do to "change society" in Israel?
Ultimately a society is composed of many individuals. We all play a small part in its change.
would whatever you do as an individual have more of an effect than simply not paying Israeli taxes?
In the grand scheme of things, not paying taxes is also a pretty miniscule thing. The US funding for Israel is pretty big though. If they needed more weapons that your tax dollars would have paid for, I'd guess the tax dollars you paid in the US would go to the same place. I guess the alternative is to live in not-US and not-Israel. But either way, I think the US would just fork up more money anyway.
But the main point I'm making is, bad people will find a way to do bad things. The best way to eliminate bad people is to change their minds.
i personally think whoever still lives in israel or palestine and maybe even has kids there, after 80 years of conflict, is crazy. it's basically "the badlands" and i think you should cut ties and settle down in a safer environment.
i don't think the US or Canada is the perfect place to live, but it's definitely better and safer than israel. i think EU, New Zealand, Australia and Britain would be even better, but you already live in the US and moving to another nation is often a lot of work, so maybe it's best to stay there. The differences in quality of life are very small IMO.
Do you have any idea how difficult it is to just get up and move country? Or to try to immigrate from a war zone to a developed country? Have you seen how the (especially non white/european) people who try are being treated??
As an ex-Israeli I was lucky enough to be able to do it many many years ago because I have dual nationality and family elsewhere I was able to depend on, but most Israelis, never mind Palestinians, don't have either, or the money to be able to afford to move, or a country that will allow them in.
Check your privilege.
Yes, I have an idea. My family is very international. It's a lot of work to move country, as I mentioned. One of many good steps is to look for work in other countries and get educated, which also solves being poor.
Apologists like you contribute to people raising children in dangerous conditions. Families had 80 years to relocate.
I have very limited empathy for people having children in and near heavily contested areas.
Yeah I gave birth to a son here in the US, which I think is a better environment for him than Israel personally.
That's entirely subjective and up to you, however, I feel like I should point out we're dealing with our own erosion of democracy issues in the United States as well.
I assume Trump won't win again so its better here in the US than in Israel where the Israeli Trump keeps winning.
It's possible Trump will win again. And even if he doesn't, he's not the only threat. There's so the emboldened MAGAts, a resurgent white nationalist / neo-Nazi / christofascist movement being weaponized, an unapologetically corrupt Supreme Court, a Republican party that's too scared of their own voters to do their job, a heavily militarized and intolerant police force, and plans to forcibly re-make the country with the next Republican president.
It's very possible Trump will win again.
I think he's going to lose because he just is more hated than he is liked. If he wins, then I'll eat my words obviously
That's what happened in the last election. People have grown lax and need to turn up and vote.
True
He is more hated, yes, but a lot of the people who hate him will vote for him anyway because they've been led to believe the alternative is the end of civilization as they know it.
It's your choice.
The whole "be the active person who stops the riches from ruining earth" trope is a lie.
The current US is just as bad as Israel if not worse.
All the losers who either flunked high school or flunked, but had daddy to pay their way have brought fascism back en masses.
If you have the luxury to move to Sweden, or the Bahammas, as far as I'm concerned, do it.
You'll be in a better place when Israel nukes Iran, WWIII pops off, and the US cripples the internet/critical infrastructure around the world.
I've quit jobs due to ethical disagreements, I'm sure I'd leave my home country if things got too bad. It wouldn't be the country i grew up in anyways.
You do you, people will both agree and disagree with you no matter what you chose.
If you could make change, you could probably make change in other countries as well.
Less so since I'm not a citizen of those countries.
Avoid Canada, or at least Toronto/Vancouver. Country is not in a great state atm.
Why so?
Mainly housing. A lot of western countries have housing issues but Canada is one of the worst. Extremely unaffordable here.
Is it important to you to live in a Jewish community? Where I live in Canada there aren’t very many Jews but I think there is a bigger community in Toronto. Nothing like you’d find in New York or Los Angeles though.
Oh I see. Yeah Ive heard Canada is horribly expensive.
Mainly this, alongside a cost of living crisis not unique to Canada. Other concern is there is some animous towards immigrants as poor immigration policy is a part of why housing is where it is. Sadly, I'm not sure I'd feel welcome as an immigrant in Canada right now (perhaps more so for Indian/Pakistani immigrants, but still).
I want to tell you to not listen to these comments, but all of them tell you to decide for yourself. Well, you asked the question, so I will answer.
Yes, and move to Palestine.
So weird
Well, if Israel loses the support of other countries, there might not be an Israel. Id also hide the fact youre a Jew, anti-semitism is on the rise, not just anti-zionism.
Yeah I know anti semitism is on the rise, which does make me weary, but there's also lots of institutional support against racism and anti semitism
There is no changing a society built upon colonization. Many have tried.
If you have the opportunity to go to Europe or Canada that is definitely a more ethical choice.
ikr. i lold
Bruh wut
How does South Africa fit into that perspective?
They violently expelled the colonists after trying to make peace with them for a very long time.
Read up a bit about Mandela he's got another chapter after the peaceful one.
That's changing the society that I argued against. Also I'm pretty sure majority of land ownership in south Africa is still owned by whites.
Maybe ask the Canadian natives how well the peace talks went. Europe is where the colonists started not sure what you mean by it.
After the revolution many ANC members got bribed into being stakeholders leaving white people still in power. The ANC's corruption however is now degrading and they are losing votes in the election.
After dismantling the colonist empire a country doesn't magically become utopia. It will take many years for it to build up. But while being colonized it can never start that process.
I think your trying to argue with someone that isn't me. South Africa changed for the better. I never said it was perfect. Just that decolonization is possible. I never said shit about Canada.