North Korean troops set to join Russian army as Pyongyang ‘fully enters’ war

Hubi@feddit.org to World News@lemmy.world – 385 points – North Korean troops set to join Russian army as Pyongyang ‘fully enters’ war
telegraph.co.uk

A battalion of 3,000 North Korean soldiers will shortly join Russian troops in fighting Ukraine, marking Pyongyang’s full entry into the war.

Intelligence sources said the unit has been secretly training in Russia’s Far East ahead of deployment as part of a Russian airborne regiment.

“They are called the Buryat Battalion,” a senior Ukrainian military source told Politico. Buryatia is a remote region of Russia bordering Mongolia that the Kremlin has targeted heavily for military recruitment.

The Kyiv Independent quoted another Western intelligence source claiming that North Korea had sent 10,000 soldiers to join the Russian army.

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Ok, it's only fair if Poland gets to join too.

Better give Poland some nukes for parity

If the invasion of Ukraine hasn't taught everyone that the only way to not get invaded is to have nukes I don't know what will.

Seriously - I’m genuinely baffled at the complete geopolitical ineptitude that occurred in 2014. It was a categorical abrogation of the Budapest Memorandum, which guaranteed Ukrainian territorial integrity and sovereignty in exchange for their surrender of old Soviet nukes based in their territory.

Nobody is going to make a deal like that going forward. The nuclear non-proliferation movement is entirely dead. Nukes are, categorically, the absolute final word in guaranteeing a country’s territorial integrity and sovereignty. There is no substitute. Genuinely, the complete and total lack of meaningful action in the defense of Ukraine was the most apocalyptically stupid geopolitical move that Obama and Merkel made during their stints as leaders of the western world.

Nah, it was second behind the invasion of Iraq and the forever war in Afghanistan. The US's unwillingness to react was in large part because it had been weakened by a decade of idiotic wars in the Middle East. Europe has no excuse though.

Honestly, no it's also done the opposite. Ukraine has passed so many of Russia's "red lines" that it shows nukes are useless too. The only time a nuke is useful is when you've already lost. If you use one then you get a lot of other groups attacking you, and potentially you get nuked yourself. You can't actually really use one in defence.

The only way to not be invaded is to be stronger than your potential opponents. Si vis pacem, para bellum. (If you want peace, prepare for war.)

It hasn't done the opposite. It has slowed response from the US and other countries significantly. For some things the US still doesn't want to give Ukraine permission. Sure, Poland was giving tanks almost immediately after the war started, showing the hole in logic. But a lot of other countries went for "non leathal aid" like body armor, helmets. They only sent more after a year or so. Truth is, if Russians got Kiev and got Ukraine to capitulate after like 6 months, they'd only gain on the landgrab, with no consequences other than sanctions (which we see how they don't really have the impact they should have and are skirted constantly). Decade or two in the future? Relations would probably be strained still, but returning to normal.

Appeasement is sadly the way of the world. That's why Hitler, Stalin and now Putin were so successful.

Russia has some odd game theory incentives because their nukes probably haven't been well maintained. Now, the rest of the world has to assume they work. The consequences of being wrong about that are too great. However, if Russia actually launched a nuke and it fizzles, that's a pretty good indication that their nukes don't work in general. It's therefore in Russia's best interest to keep pretending that it will launch a nuke, but never do it because that would remove all doubt.

And then they're fucked. With the nuclear taboo broken--fizzle or not--nobody will complain when NATO gets directly involved in conventional ways.

good point. Loading up ukraine with nukes would have created a serious problem for russia. The problem is it would have given Ukraine independence from the US as well.

Any North Korean soldiers captured should be held prisoner in some Scandinavian prison and fed nothing but the most decadent and tasty foods. Then when the war is over send them back to NK fatter than Kim Jon Un. That would be a real power play.

You can't serve Scandinavian food to prisonners it is forbidden by the Geneva convention.

If meatballs and mashed potatoes with lingonberry sauce are against the Geneva convention it's probably time we had on Oslo convention.

You're thinking of Scandinavian regional delicacies and certain seasonal special dishes, none of which I've ever had the misfortune of smelling, and serving those to prisoners does sound pretty inhumane. All Scandinavian food outside of those that I've tried or heard of tasted or sounded delicious.

There's more to Scandinavian food than lutefisk, y'know.

Married into a Scandinavian family. Scandinavian baked goods are amazing.

Lmao, I just saw an article on here about NK soldiers abandoning the front lines. That didn't last long

Why fight die for some other country's pointless war? If I was there, I'd leave, too.

I'd also encourage any US troops who are sent off to fight for Israel in the future to do the same lol.

Because someone's watching you with a gun to your head. Deserting is hard

But also you're holding a gun.

So your idea is to heroically kill a blocking batallion by yourself by turning around. So now there are Ukrainians wanting to kill you in the rear, and Russians wanting to kill you in the front. Said Russians also have a firepower advantage over you in the form of artillery that they can throw at deserters too. They have air support, reserves and military police that can quash any deserters.

Unless half the army walks with you, you having a gun doesn't mean shit.

No, the grunts should just kill their officers and surrender to Ukraine ideally. They could go back towards Russia if they wanted to take that risk, because it's not an impenetrable wall like you're implying. It's still a risk though. Probably better odds than fighting though if they don't agree with the war.

This is very naive. Deserting cucks you over. If the world followed your logic we'd have world peace 500 years ago.

It's not naive. I've served in the military. You don't constantly have a massive army behind you telling you to push forward. You're sent out in squads. Patriotism and brotherhood is how this has always been overcome, because war is scary and hard. I don't see the people of NK feeling much of either if they aren't taken care of and are finding out how much they were lied to.

It isn't naive, there's just a lot of reasons why it isn't done. Most people have families back home, for example, and they'll face consequences if you do this. It does happen though. It's rare, but it's possible.

In any other situation I would agree with you, but are you confident that deserting the Russian army fucks you over more than living in North Korea does? Because I'm not really sure.

Because your family back home will be in for it.

Ah but Russia isn't keeping track of its own losses anyway, easy to slip away and they assume you're dead.

Ukraine's about to get a lot of defectors...

Unfortunately many North Koreans already leave the country to work as slaves for construction companies, factories, etc (including in Europe). Generally they only allow people out who have families back home to be tortured/killed in case they defect.

They will probably get some, but less than you might expect.

There's a pretty big difference between construction work and human wave tactics in a warzone. Different levels of motivation to defect.

And different opportunities, going MIA on a construction site is suspicious, but during war? Who can tell whether they defected or died?

What Russia likes about North Korean Soldiers in Ukraine: Manpower!

What North Korea likes about North Korean Soldiers in Ukraine: Money!

What North Korean Soldiers like about North Korean Soldiers in Ukraine: Freedom!

Its going well!

I mean why wouldn't they?

Koreans have no beef with Ukraine. They're fighting in a war for a paycheck.

But they're probably seeing wartorn Ukraine, with bombed out buildings and roads, and going, "Well shit this place looks better than home" and leaving.

Fighting in war for paycheck

Kim doesn't operate that way, he's got of a 'don't die or I'll kill your family and put the relatives in jail' energy

The great Russian army. The great russian army with the best weapons and tanks and soldiers.

What a paper tiger.

BTW it's rumored that they are running out of both tanks and bmps. If trump doesn't win (if he does, it will just take longer) the whole russia will collapse like the soviet union did in 1991. The ruble is already in free fall, inflation at 20%, the economy is overheating and fewer and fewer young people left to work or be killed.

I just hope it crumbles as soon as possible but I guess this insane war has to drag on for some 6 months to a year.

I mean you list all of that and ignore the biggest elephant in the room. 40% GDP spent on the war.

Or more.

Just to be clear, the war economy will hasten the downfall of Russia (they no longer publish inflation numbers, rumours are they are way over 20% maybe even at 40%. The central bank is already lending at 19% which is crazy) but it won't help much with tanks and btrs, as the vast majority of the "new" ones are refurbished ones pulled out from long time storage, and even the "bad" ones are drying up, it's impossible to know but it could be the end of both tanks & btrs this month or next month or so.

Russia builds just a handfull (less than 10) every month, they almost lose that many every day.

BTW it’s rumored that they are running out of both tanks and bmps.

I feel like people have been saying this for about 2 years. We should believe it when we see it.

We do see it lol. There are people who get satellite photos of tankyards in Russia. They pay Google to take a new photo over a specific base, count the tanks, armored vehicles and trucks, and make a youtube video about it. Russia is losing an enormous amounts of tanks. They can't retrofit enough of the old stock to keep up with the losses, let alone produce new tanks.

Dictatorships can take a lot of abuse before falling apart. Look at North Korea. People are starving and still that fuckers in power.

Dictatorships only stand because of the military. The military which is currently being slaughtered en masse in a war they didn't need. We are one week "where decades happen" away from Russia colapsing. Shit like Prigozin, like Kadyrov launching a blood feud, etc.

Predictions of Russia’s collapse are like predictions that Putin’s health is about to fail: a dime a dozen on the Internet for years now and nothing ever comes of them.

That's true, however it become clearer and clearer that some serious damage is happening to Russia and Putin. I don't dare to make any predictions, but Putin is in a very uncomfortable position right now.

And yet shit like Prigozin happens. The fall of the Soviet Union was also sudden.

As long as they can find soldiers and equipment somewhere and the economy doesn't completely collapse, they can keep going. It will get harder every year but I think it could still go on for years more.

With the current attrition rate of Russian forces, these 3K troops will likely be expended in ~2.3 days..

What a great opportunity for those north Koreans to defect to Europe

Soooo… is it a world war yet?

No, but the anthems are playing and the players are doing a warm up.

Captain Blackadder : You see, Baldrick, in order to prevent war in Europe, two superblocs developed: us, the French and the Russians on one side, and the Germans and Austro-Hungary on the other. The idea was to have two vast opposing armies, each acting as the other's deterrent. That way there could never be a war.

Private Baldrick : But, this is a sort of a war, isn't it, sir?

Captain Blackadder : Yes, that's right. You see, there was a tiny flaw in the plan.

Private Baldrick : What was that, sir?

Captain Blackadder : It was bollocks.

Translation: Putin needs more people for the meat grinder without making his people madder at him.

Man this three day special military operation has kind of gotten out of hand.

If Putin does something stupid that elicits a direct response from the U.S., Kim will regret going all-in on this. We could use a good excuse to make the NK problem go away.

Regerts .... The average height is 5ft 4in in North Korea. In Ukraine that's 5ft 8in. Not that it's super important, but it could be.

Also imagine coming regretfully into some else's war and having to walk around a whole bunch of blow-up buildings full of dead ruzzians. If that doesn't double up regerts I don't know what else other than getting injured might.

So one intelligence source says 10,000 have already been sent, and another says 3,000 will soon be sent.

These are just rumours. Inconsistent rumours.

This is clickbait for a paywalled article.

This is true for basically everything in a war zone. Some idea is better than no idea IMO. Yes, you have to piece together your own assessment from the data, but I'd prefer to have the data than not.

As far as I can tell these claims are largely coming from Ukrainian sources. I have not seen independent validation from anywhere else. At best we can say is that Ukrainian intelligence claims North Koreans troops are being deployed as part of Russia’s invasion.

Unfortunately, the headline of this article acts as if this is a known fact. A better headline would be include the source of the accusation being made. That’s a problem because most in this thread and the other similar threads are treating the claims made as fact and any reasonable skepticism is downvoted and dismissed.

Well this is true of most news sources. They find a source, make an eye catching headline and story about it. It's for us to read things and weigh the biases and veracity of the information. I also wish it were otherwise, but it's not.

I generally agree but with a few caveats.

First, this is a uniquely bad headline. More reputable outlets would report it as something like “Russia denies using North Korean troops in war effort, Ukrainian Intelligence claims otherwise”. That at least allows the reader to understand who is making what claim and whether or not that claim is contested.

Second, most people are not anywhere as skeptical of media outlets as they should be. They may expect bias but rarely do people in western countries expect journalists to regurgitate and launder whatever wild claims state officials make. Unfortunately thats exactly what many new agencies do which is why I think it’s important to talk about when discussing articles like this one.

North Korean troops arriving at a training ground in Eastern Russia

This is something new but I’m still pretty skeptical and I think rightly so. Photos and videos posted to telegram aren’t always what people claim they are. I also haven’t seen any new media willing to say whether or not these videos show what they purport to show. I’d add that it’s also entirely possible for North Korean troops to enter Russia as part of some joint training exercises. However, they may not be intended for deployment in Ukraine.

I’d also be interested to know why the US or NATO do not seem to want to validate any of these claims at this time.

For me seems pretty par for the course in war. Some stuff happens, you get a report from someone who saw it, you get a video, then some more official accounts. That's how a lot of things happen. If you want to use a very high burden of proof then you will have to wait a while to know what's going on.

If you want to use a very high burden of proof then you will have to wait a while to know what’s going on.

I agree but I also think that a high burden of proof should be the standard for political topics especially armed conflict. If this was a youtube video about a pig saving a goat from drowning I wouldn't really care if people chose to believe in it or not.

Yes, but you don't have to overstate things in the headline so much.

Good luck convincing anyone here to be skeptical of sources that reinforce their preconceptions of the world. Media literacy is sorely lacking is this thread.

Another story I saw says that North Korean troops were spotted in the Russian military. How could an observer know they were Korean? Were they wearing a Korean uniform? And if so, why haven’t we seen any photos of that? Ukrainians have cameras, right?

Is this just a case of Ukrainians not being able to tell the difference between Buryats and Koreans?

Edit: Come to think of it, it’s more likely a case of Americans not being able to tell the difference between Buryats and Koreans.

I can only imagine their shock when they eventually learn that Russia, a country that spans all of north Asia, has Asians in it.

Part of me thinks “Surely American military intelligence must know there are different ethnic groups in Russia”.

But then I remember how the invasion of Iraq happened in part because the Americans didn’t understand the difference between Shia and Sunni Iraqis.

The US understands very well the different religious factions. The way the West Asia region was carved into countries by the colonial powers is identical to what they did in Africa. Deliberately creating countries with internal conflicts that can be exploited for destabilizing them.

However it is easy to tell apart Siberian ethnicities from Koreans. You can also tell apart Eastern Europeans from Western Europeans, leave alone the fact that Korean is an entirely different language from Russian or the languages of the region.

Edit: regarding the languages. In Buryat people speak dialects of Mongolian. Mongolian has a shared ancestry with Turk languages.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolic_languages

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