Tbf, he should abdicate to a younger Democrat. I don't want to "settle for Joe".
I was pissed when Bernie Sanders had the rug pulled out from under him.
I really want to consolidate, but not under Joe Biden.
I want change. I want new ideas. Progress and solutions. Biden has been in government for over fifty years- most of that in the senate for over 40 years.
He’s been a senator longer than I’ve been alive
It’s not a question of age. It’s a question of stagnation.
I'll take stagnation over fascism. What is the short term plan? I mean, what happens if the orange blob snakes his way back in because the purity ponies and the "independents" stomped their feet and had a hissy?
If that guy and his cohort get back in, it is most likely over for real elections in America.
I’ll take stagnation over fascism.
It's clear that the party prefers stagnation to progress as well.
progress > stagnation >>>>>>> fascism
I don't understand people who go "if I can't have progress and I'm forced to vote for stagnation in order to prevent fascism, then I'm fine with fascism."
It does not follow that everyone who isn't overjoyed with stagnation wants fascism.
It is if you're willing to let the fascists win because of it.
Well, I'm voting for Biden. It's a shame that the party would rather stagnate and lose than progress and win.
Because the people offering stagnation are benefiting from the fascism. They're two sides of one coin and every time you flip the coin the sharp edges slice the throat of a poor person.
Besides, it's not stagnation, that implies not moving. We are actually moving backwards and the reason why republicans are able to ban abortion, engage in blatant corruption, and run for president whilst on trial is because the "stagnation" side refuses to mount a proper offence because, again, they're all benefitting from the situation.
I'd almost rather see our government burn down and get replaced by another than let status quo limp along another four years.
Real issues that real Americans want fixed have been ignored by Dems and Repubs alike for longer than I've been alive. Real issues, like widespread poverty wages, declining quality in public education, inaccess to healthcare, the prison system, terrible public transport in cities, no social safety nets, little action against climate change, etc. These issues have only gotten worse over time, so why would I vote for the status quo knowing that?
Hell, the "good" party in charge right now is actively supporting genocide in the east and keeping healthcare so expensive at homr that I can't get a cavity filled without taking lien out on my car. I'll never own a home despite being an engineer and having virtually zero debt. Life as an American fucking sucks, and if the last 80 years of American politics are anything to go by, then voting in the status quo in 2024 will continue making life worse.
The only American government that's been in charge while I've been alive has done nothing but make my life worse. If things continue this way, maybe Americans will finally reach their tipping point 100 years from now and grow the balls to take their government back. I'd rather not wait that long.
Stagnation is just the slow road to fascism.
I bet making fun of them is a great way to gain their favor.
Is there some kind of outreach for people that want white supremacy and xtian nationalism that would work for Hillary?
I think the Democrats are fascist.
Then vote for someone else in the primaries. But as soon as it is the general election it is either the democrat or fascism. Even if you don't vote at all, it will just strengthen the fascist party.
There's no Democratic primary this year.
I mean, Dean Phillips and Marianne Williamson would probably disagree.
You’re right about what we have to do, but are we even having primaries this time? Because of how the primary process was scheduled in 2020 Biden had the nomination all but locked up by the time I got to vote in them. I’m 100% voting for Biden, you can look into my comments and find me admonishing some asshole advocating for third party presidential candidates over Biden. But I do understand the frustration with having to vote again for someone I didn’t want the first time and isn’t representative of the direction I want the country to move in besides not wanting to be in a fascist theocracy.
That is a fair point. The primary system as well as the election system as a whole should probably reformedbut that is nearly impossible without flipping a lot of States.
I'm from Switzerland and we had a similar voting system for a long time. It was only changed by implementing more ways for the populace to directly decide about matters in both the Cantons (States) and Switzerland as a whole. So this might be a good way to implement change as it gives people a specific matter to vote on.
In Switzerland it was made possible by populists that wanted a more direct democracy.
So I hope something like this is possible for the US as well as many things like legalized weed, abortion access, a good health insurance system or voting reforms often have a stable majority among the voters, they just don't vote accordingly.
I hope so too, at this point I’m at a loss, based on my general observations about my country as a whole I don’t see any way that the changes the world desperately needs will happen because of the structure of our government alongside the culture of individualism that has led to the communal alienation we have for each other now. I don’t like how hopeless I’ve become but looking at things from a high level things are pretty bleak
The primaries are mostly determined by the parties. There will be a primary this year in New Hampshire where only the Republican result counts, because they Democrats reordered their primary schedule so New Hampshire wasn't first and New Hampshire has a law saying they must hold theirs first. So their vote will happen but just doesn't count.
In the end it's the parties that decide who their nominee will be, by the rules they make up, so that's where reform needs to happen.
Then vote for politicans that you think will change that or advocate for direct democracy, join a union, strike there are many ways to get more political influence!
I'm not responding to say it can't change, I'm explaining you how the primary half of the problem works. Changing a private organization is potentially easier than changing a law, but at the same time does not have a definite method of voting on it.
The electoral college decides who takes office. I vote third party because the popular vote doesn't mean shit (in most states iirc) and I want to do my part to show, statistically, that the democrats need to move left. We can't have two far-right parties in control of this country, and so long as they're running with Biden that's what they are.
Even in Europe the Democrats wouldn't be considered to be far right. They are a big tent party spanning from center to left.
I have to disagree strongly with that first part, but of course that's what they want people across the world to think- there is very little room for leftists in practice.
I think the Democrats are fascist.
You should learn more about fascists then because that is obviously wrong.
I believe it's largely a matter of interpreting the facts. if you have a bias that prevents you from from believing the Democrats could be fascist that might stand in your way of coming to the same conclusion I did.
Where is your evidence? Believing doesn't count.
bidens FBI just labeled antifascism extreme.
The influence of the president on the FBI is quite limited.
Feel free to suspect massive faschist influences in the FBI (like in most law enforcement organizations), as that is probably true. So unless you have a personal message from Biden to the Boss of the FBI, this is not evidence at all.
it's an executive agency. the chief executive absolutely has influence.
Put aside that you might sympathize with antifascist goals. From a law and order perspective, would you argue that the FBI is wrong? I don't think so. Extremism in resisting fascism is kind of their thing.
i am an insurrectionary anarchist. i believe laws are bad, and the fbi is the jackbooted gestapo.
I want to vote to change the voting system. We deserve to vote for who we trust with the job rather than against the candidate we fear most.
I have to compartmentalize pretty hard each election cycle. I wish I had time to campaign for a voting system change, but I haven't.
Should have been Bernie. SMH
It won't work. Conceding the already filled chair is seen as a weakness and they will parade that thought around. We know better, but they will not let the Dems live it down. It's the Dem nomination in 28 that matters. This year is Joe and maybe Trump. Depending on the stupidity of the Reps.
That would nearly guarantee a win for Trump. Incumbency advantage is strong as is name recognition. I don't like Biden either but he's better than a literal fascist. If Trump wins in 2024 there will not be an election in 2028.
I think Biden is a literal fascist.
OK, that's an opinion. But Trump and the Republican party is literally trying to take over the government and replace most executive positions. There's no evidence Biden is trying to do that or anything as immediate or exteme.
In that position and in your point of view, they are both fascists. But Trump is a fascist that is trying to commit a coup NOW and Biden isn't.
I am 100% for trying to primary Biden. If there's enough support Biden doesn't win the nomination that'd be great! But abdication or forcing him out just because old is a good way to lose faith in the electorate. A better plan would be to have a VP that is a good presidential candidate in case he has to resign due to age.
I'm not going to be voting for Biden under any foreseeable circumstance. he could forgive my student loan, and gimme that $2k he promised me 3 years ago. I don't think he has the backbone to do either of those, though
Ok so a Trump voter then. Or the equivalent. The Republicans get a win from you.
I'm not voting for Trump, either.
It's a two party system. Not voting for one of the two is as good as voting for the one for like least. You're depriving the one who's less bad of a vote. That's how the party system works. You need to put down your principles once we're at the final stage and make the choice that is least worst for you.
To put it in perspective: if it was Biden vs literally dying, would you still not vote for Biden? We're not quite there, but it's close: potential end of democracy.
You need to put down your principles
Democrats' only real message to their constituents.
Thats not entirely fair they also have 'Nothing will fundamentally change' and you know you can believe that one because it's the one they told the people who pay them.
Then welcome round 2 of Trump and the final round of democracy. When the blame game happens, people like you and the above spammer will be held to account for your refusal to compromise. You're no better than Republicans. In fact, you are all worse. Because at least Republicans know what they're about. Pathetic.
When the blame game happens, people like you and the above spammer will be held to account for your refusal to compromise
I'm voting for Biden. I'm sure that won't stop you from blaming me anyway. Honestly, you'd rather lose and have someone to blame than win by appealing to us worthless voters.
You need to put down your principles
no.
Not voting for one of the two is as good as voting for the one for like least.
wrong.
we're not a democracy, we never have been, and that's a good thing: democracy is bad.
More of this nonsense. Spent a fair bit of time on Reddit explaining to folks that few young people turned out for Bernie in the primary. That space was/is replete with apologists digging every conspiracy out of the book instead of acknowledging that Biden simply drew the most votes. And then of course there's a bit of obviousness that never gets addressed: Trump handing Bernie his ass.
Here we are again. Where are the primary voters? Seems a handful of people care to make noise over the results but only a fraction of that number even care to turn out for them. What does turn out is that most people don't end up giving a fuck about voting anything but the presidential election.
I'm sure the collective delusion feels good to immerse oneself in though.
There was no Biden to begin with. Bernie starts gaining traction and then, what? Biden comes out of the woodwork at the 11th hour to split the dem vote and gets bankrolled to prevent a far-left and progressive democrat party.
Yeah, he was running on donations from the public, but he was absolutely gaining traction. He absolutely was sabotaged.
Yes? Biden won a lot of moderate states on Super Tuesday, and then a bunch of milque toast candidates dropped out and endorsed the same. Sanders strategy was to gain momentum in the early bellwether and had some success. It just didn't translate country wide, and South Carolina showed the beginning of that pretty clearly.
It's neat how red states get to decide who our nominee is. South Carolina should not be a kingmaker. They are not indicative of what a state that helps us in the general acts like.
We wonder why we keep winning the popular vote and losing the electoral college.
The kingmaker idea is why the Bernie campaign focused so heavily on Iowa and New Hampshire. And South Carolina, actually. And I totally agree, the primaries should all be on the same day.
I think the primaries should go from bluest state to reddest.
There were shenanigans to sink Bernie's ship. That being said, while I'd have been happy with him, there's no way he could've won looking at the map in hindsight. So I'm glad because Biden is better than another four years of Trump.
You're 100% correct that all the enthusiasm online didn't turn out young voters in the primary, and all the complaints about old people winning elections are mostly from the same demographic that didn't turn out to vote. They turned out in slightly greater numbers than usual but there is an untapped well of political power to change things if young people actually got each other to vote.
And time and time again you people refuse to look at the collusion against him by the DNC.
What he could have achieved if the party and media had worked with him instead of against him is anyone’s guess, but he did an amazing job in spite of them.
Who tf is "you people"? What makes you think this person is unaware of the blatant smear campaign against Bernie?
Here's the thing - what is the viable alternative? We are talking the orange blob otherwise, which means fascism, and the end of democracy in this nation.
Is Biden perfect? Of course not. Is he too old? Yeah, most likely. All the purity ponies and the so-called "independents" that are setting us up for another "win" (EC only) of the orange blob are not really thinking this through...
This is where I'm at. Biden is not my preferred candidate, but I don't see a better alternative stepping up. Witmer, Newsome, Shapiro, etc have all opted not to run. Joe Biden is the strongest candidate running for president that can and has beat Trump, end of story. I'd love to live in a world where I can vote for a young progressive in the 2024 general election, but we simply don't live in that world. The focus should be on pushing Biden to the left, not complaining that he's taking the place of some imagined candidate that doesn't exist.
Witmer, Newsome, Shapiro, etc have all opted not to run.
They've opted not to challenge Biden, that doesn't mean if he stepped aside we'd just have some nobody. Unfortunately he really is the decision point on whether we're stuck with him, and people who become president aren't known for their propensity to fade into the background and let someone else take charge.
I want to preface this by saying I'm voting for Biden.
All the purity ponies and the so-called “independents” that are setting us up for another “win” (EC only) of the orange blob are not really thinking this through…
So, those people still exist. The party still needs their votes. Browbeating ain't gonna bring them on board. Is the party going to try appealing to them, or does it prefer Dictator Trump to lowering itself to treating the left like valued constituents?
I'm voting for Biden. But I'm also disappointed that the stuff he ran on was gleefully jettisoned by the congress that he said would work with him because of his experience. The people who are happy that minimum wage stayed put and most of BBB was gutted are now turning around and being like "vote for us! you have no choice!" and it looks for all the world like they're taking advantage of the situation.
People are giving up. Out of apathy, out of disgust, because they feel betrayed. Fuck, I'm voting for Biden and I'm feeling apathetic, disgusted, and betrayed.
Biden has 11 months to turn this around. His supporters who are demanding unquestioning happiness from everyone who has been let down by this administration aren't moving that needle in the direction that gets him re-elected. But damn, does it feel good to browbeat people who see what's coming if the party doesn't alter course.
This last sentence is the fourth time I'm going to mention that I'm voting for Biden, and I expect all four will be ignored.
Another Biden voter here:
Member the democratic primary when Joe threatened to beat up somebody questioning his (questionable as hell) record?
I member.
People don't get it, like fuck Biden. Fuck trump more, of course, but fuck Biden. And fuck all these people who want you to spoon the shit soup in with a smile.
They did the same thing to us this time as they do every time. They lied to get us to vote for them then turned around and feigned helplessness when we demanded they actually follow through.
It feels like our choices are "dark path that leads to widespread political violence" or "dark path that continues existing political violence on a smaller scale."
Isn't the BBB a private company
You're thinking of the Better Business Bureau, which is a private company. I was referring to Build Back Better, which was Biden's plan that the party's republican-adjacent wing gutted.
My comment is not really aimed at people that are voting for Biden, while recognizing his issues. I'm in the same camp. Do I want a more progressive candidate? Yes. Do I wish the Democratic Party was much more progressive than it is? Hell yes.
My comment is about people that are either too cynical/too pure and insist they are going to remain "above it all" by either bowing out entirely, or throwing their vote away on ridiculous third party candidates. Or even worse, voting for donnie in the hope of some accelerationist BS fantasy that is going to put leftists in the seat of power, somehow.
I'm not sure if I'm more sick of that type, or the entirely low-info that keep claiming, no matter what the facts are, that "the economy is terrible", so it doesn't really matter who wins (and will vote for donnie in some cases, because "Biden is old" or some other fiddly irrelevant nonsense). All I know is that between these two types, our country is hanging in the balance...
My comment is not really aimed at people that are voting for Biden, while recognizing his issues. I’m in the same camp. Do I want a more progressive candidate? Yes. Do I wish the Democratic Party was much more progressive than it is? Hell yes.
The people you're insulting and belittling are disappointed about the same things you claim to be disappointed about. How are you going to get them on board? You need them on board. Our very democracy hangs in the balance.
Do you suppose that infantile mockery will do the trick?
How many of the people that are advocating to vote for the likes of Jill Stein - of those that are not just Russian bots/agents and are people even acting in good faith, that is - do you think are reachable? People that seem to take their cues from the likes of Susan Sarandon don't strike me as a market segment that will be convinced by anything.
People playing the "more leftist than thou" game don't seem all that serious to me. And calling them purity ponies is hardly a harsh criticism, it perfectly embodies their behaviors and emotional hysterias - if they don't get their way, 100%, they are willing to put the entire world in jeopardy.
Does that strike you as rational?
And calling them purity ponies is hardly a harsh criticism
I didn't say it was harsh. I said it was infantile.
Does that strike you as rational?
Rational or not, if you need their votes, you need their votes.
I don't think it's infantile to describe the behavior in precise terms.
I find it so interesting that the party that keeps abandoning its stated principles so that GOP-senpai will notice them refuses to treat people in their own caucus like they need their votes.
How many times do we have to keep voting for the lesser evil. The more years I've been doing this the more voting for the lesser evil I hear.
Until the people who don't want the job are so fed up with how it's being done that they take the job themselves.
That's some of what sets apart an earnest politician from a corrupt one.
Personally, I think society would benefit if I got into politics. But I have so much work to do on my personal life that I don't have anything left to give. Maybe someday when I am on more sure footing, I can throw my hat in the ring and start getting involved in small scale local politics to see if I have any chops for it, but I don't know when that might be.
If we keep asking why are all these people in charge assholes, I have to ask, well why don't you run for office then?
And the sad reality seems to be that it's only the people comfortable and stable enough in life that they have the security and freedom to get into politics. Those people tend to be wealthier people they are also older. And that is not a demographic that is very representative of the teeming masses.
But hell, we barely even vote in this country. Other countries put us to shame when considering voter turnout. Voting should be the absolute bare minimum level of effort.
Until people get pissed off enough to start being politically active and not just passive participants in the process. When the "high bar" is merely "showing up to vote after glancing over the candidates" what do people expect?
Get involved in local politics. Volunteer for candidates that reflect your actual ideals -- or run for a local office yourself. Actually talk to other voters about issues, form coalitions to do something about it. Annoy the shit out of your elected officials and hold them accountable. Be loud, be pissed off, and use that energy to do something other than complain on social media about it.
Anyone that actually wants change needs to realize it requires being and active participant in politics. The problem is most people don't because it's frequently frustrating, disheartening, and exhausting work just for minor change. It's a thankless slog towards a better future on top of just trying to survive.
I understand the sentiment but most people just don't have the time or energy for that. I'm a busy person, got a young one around that needs my help every day - and I need to be able to help put people into office that reflect my ideals without actively being involved. That shouldn't be a large ask.
And we should be able to do that. But we Americans love to complain about the current state of affairs, yet we put more energy into complaining than we do actually voting. Our voter turnout for presidential elections is already way behind other countries, our mid terms are worse, our general elections the remaining odd years are worse still, and oh my God... The primaries....
The primaries are where we can actually redefine the political parties and fill them with new earnest candidates. Possibly the most important of all the elections, that's where we have virtually non-existent turnout.
Our government is exactly what we made out of it.
There will be multiple Climate Wars ongoing before they consider that it may be the time to try and break away from the two parties that caused it.
The alternative is PRIMARY HIM. That ass doesn’t deserve our vote and his hubris that he will get it no matter what is driving this country into a game of chicken with madness. He must retire and the only way he will listen is if we credibly refuse to support him NOW
Didn't he initially say he was going to be a one termer? If so, he should keep his word. Either way, he should be primaries.
What does the lemmy hive mind think of Marianne Williamson?
She was dismissed four years ago as bonkers. Right or wrong, that stuck. She stands no chance.
I would guess that the prevailing sentiment here is "Not Biden? ENEMY!"
Politics is a process. This is the time where the parties (all two) have to sort out their policy platform and the candidates to run on that platform.
So it isn't just about it being Biden, let alone Trump. The "alternative" can also include a Biden actually pivoting to a different, more popular set of policies. He could even get some mileage on the things he ran on in 2020 and has barely moved on since, like public healthcare option or a minimum wage increase.
The bigger problem is Biden now has a 3 term track record in the White House snubbing progressive policy.
He can't promise anything anymore, he has to actually deliver, and he is running out of time, if he hasn't already. (He most likely has.)
Trump flavored candidates have done terribly in almost every election since, pretending Trump winning is a forgone conclusion is doomer rhetoric.
Biden started out well in 21 and 22 because he tried to appeal to his progressive base. That being said, Biden is a fucking moron if he believes his neolib pivot didn't hurt his poll numbers.
It's not too late, Biden needs to pivot back to progressive policies instead of this blame the voters BS like Hillary tried. Blame leaders, not voters.
So, you have a choice. a less than perfect candidate, or someone who has already endorsed the idea of suspending the Constitution and A-bombing Palestine.
I expect to have more options on my ballot.
Why? When have you ever had a perfect candidate? I like what NYC ex-mayor Ed Koch said. "If you agree with me 51% of the time, vote for me. If you agree with me 100% of the time, see a doctor."
I expect to have more options because I usually do.
Yeah, but in a first-past-the-post system, you don't.
Is that complete and utter crap, should the FPTP system be launched into the sun and replaced with a system that actually gave people choices, would a parliamentary system be better, is the Electorate College just an abomination based on a compromise with long dead slave owners, should every vote carry the same weight?
Well, there you go.
But in the current system, you'll only ever have two choices.
So choose wisely.
I usually have 4 or more options on my ballot
How many times in U.S. History have the 3rd or 4th options been elected to the office of President? When the answer is zero, how do you count them as options?
You are literally more likely to win the lottery than you are to elect a third party to U.S. President.
it's my right to vote for the person I want to win. I don't vote for people I don't want to win.
I will vote for a progressive, if trump is elected its on the center dems for failing.
Dobbs happened because of you.
It happened because of the 40 years of failure of the democratic party in their ambivalence to the willing efforts of the republican party to destroy democracy. They will fail us in the defense of democracy. All that continues not to demand a fundamental change are the problem.
It says a lot that this piece doesn’t even acknowledge Biden’s advocacy for Israel’s genocide as any kind of factor in his sinking support.
Trump's people think Biden is holding back and that we should be assisting Israel even more. There are Evangelicals who believe that we should nuke the whole Middle East to bring about the end times.
I really don't see not voting for Biden
That’s on purpose, conservative leaning media has been pushing the Hamas Israel conflict whenever possible but it’s fuckin crickets when Joe fucking Biden and blinken actually pull out a cease fire and hostage swap, with more to come.
They just want Donald back to up their clicks as everyone wakes up and sees what wild fascist bs he has done that day.
Beyond his relationship with Solomon, Trump, and Giuliani, Finkelstein (Hill owner) was Solomon’s direct supervisor at The Hill and created the conditions which permitted Solomon to publish his conspiratorial stories without the traditional oversight implemented at news outlets. And he has kept a watchful eye on the newspaper’s coverage to ensure it is not too critical of the President.
fuck the hill, right wing owned and biased trash
Just look at the word they chose for the title, implying they are just shouting down any dissent at all. Fuck these media fascist lovers
Beyond his relationship with Solomon, Trump, and Giuliani, Finkelstein (owner) was Solomon’s direct supervisor at The Hill and created the conditions which permitted Solomon to publish his conspiratorial stories without the traditional oversight implemented at news outlets. And he has kept a watchful eye on the newspaper’s coverage to ensure it is not too critical of the President.
implying they are just shouting down any dissent at all.
gestures broadly at thread
Oh yeah? Why don't you just shut your big ol' fat mouth?!
Yeah, heard a less polite version of that one in earnest already in this thread.
Except for Tom Daschle who gave a pretty non-committal response, the names in this article seem like nobodies. Why are the statements of random consultants a news story? Who cares what the "deputy campaign manager for John Kerry’s 2004 presidential run" or a "senior policy adviser at Holland & Knight and former senior policy adviser to Vice President Harris" says?
I sure hope these aren't the names that come up when someone asks "who are Biden's closest allies".
Probably the same folks who decided to put 81 candles on a tiny cake
This is the best summary I could come up with:
But some Democrats say comments like Axelrod’s aren’t helping especially as Biden continues to face poor polling numbers, encouraging the party to instead coalesce around the president to give him a boost.
That followed a New York Times and Siena College poll earlier this month that found Trump leading Biden in critical battleground states.
Senate Democrats are also now pushing back hard on criticism from within their own party, dismissing concerns about Biden’s electability as counterproductive.
Messina, Obama’s 2012 campaign manager, has been an advocate for Biden on social media, posting on X this week, “Polls a year out are about as good at predicting election results as a magic 8 ball would be.” Plouffe, Obama’s 2008 campaign manager, has long warned against Democrats ‘bedwetting’ and worrying about political outcomes.
Meanwhile, independent presidential candidate Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has been polling with a high favorability in recent surveys, which some find problematic.
The campaign has a year to show voters the difference they’ve made and the significant legislative success over the first term, amidst extreme odds,” Nelson said.
The original article contains 1,223 words, the summary contains 178 words. Saved 85%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
Brocialists being dragged kicking and screaming even to vote for their own guy in the primary then wonder why the policy heads pivot right towards independents who will actually turn out to vote.
Ultra Lefties being the self righteous collaborators with fascists since Weimar and the Spanish Civil War.
May those of us who actually need solidarity die quickly and quietly so they can feel oh so cathartic for "avenging" us.
Get better soon <3
I would but the brocialists vote striking so damn much means I can't afford healthcare to get better! Even in the fucking primaries against the candidates in favor of fully public medicine!
If you don't like Joe Biden, they only way to tell the Democratic party to change is by voting for Jill Stein.
They will keep sabotaging the primaries to get trash like Joe Biden until you leave and make them change.
LOL, the Russian cutout? No THANK YOU.
she's not a Russian cutout.
Are all 234k members in the Green party US Russian plants?
This type of mentality is how Trump gets re-elected. And it's looking more and more like it will be the end of democracy in the US if that happens.
No, Joe Biden is how Trump can get re-elected. This wouldn't be a problem if you didn't vote for terrible candidates like Joe Biden in the first place.
Last time was literally a choice between Biden and Trump. You're saying by voting in the guy who wasn't Trump, we gave Trump the presidency? So, we should have simply allowed him to win with his highly mobilized and motivated supporters? That's a brilliant strategy, I wonder how that would have played out. Surely, an awesome third option would have magically appeared at the last second and won it all, right? Like, what do you even want from people? You don't like Trump, but you also don't like when people vote against him. If people hadn't voted Biden in, though, we'd already be in another Trump presidency right now.
It sounds like what you're advocating is that we had a better front-runner than Biden in the first place, one so amazing that they'd obviously blow Trump right out of the water. I also want that, but we didn't/don't and we as voters have no control over who runs, that's just wishful thinking. Yes, we should have better candidates. Where are they? In the meantime, we have no choice but to take the reality that we have, even if it means biting our tongues and voting for Biden again. It will once again come down to Biden vs Trump and to let Trump run away with this one would be a big mistake.
You’re saying by voting in the guy who wasn’t Trump, we gave Trump the presidency?
Nope. You're always keeping Republicans in contention by allowing Democrats to take advantage of you. Dems will change once they have to, until then you'll get more Biden like candidates. You really want Buttigieg next? That's what you'll get unless you vote for someone else.
And yet, for everyone to sit back and not vote for Biden would be to allow Trump to win, a much bigger deal than possibly being taken advantage of in some vague and nebulous way. Are you so upset at the DNC that you'd accept fascism as an alternative? As awful as Trump is, the GOP is largely united behind him and rabidly loyal to him. You aren't going to beat them by splitting the vote and bringing in relative unknowns. I'm registered Green myself, but Stein got 1.1% of the vote in 2016 and less than half that in 2020. They've never won a single national election, never even a single seat in Congress. As great as it would be, there is just no way the Green Party will be able to pull something like that off.
In the face of an intolerable and catastrophic alternative such as Trump, Biden not being amazingly popular unfortunately means we actually have to act more decisively in support of him instead of less. I'm not saying you have to like him, but this is perhaps one of the most important elections of our lifetimes and worse yet, the outcome is far from certain. If Trump wins, being able to say, "Well, at least I didn't vote for Biden!" would be a very hollow victory.
Are you so upset at the DNC that you’d accept fascism as an alternative?
Heard this same old story every 4 years my entire life. It's starting to not work anymore, just look at Biden's polling. People are realizing its a scam.
As long as Trump is running, that's the reality, though. Trump is nothing like any GOP candidate that's ever run in anyone's life. If anything, he seems worse now than he did in 2016. The 2025 plan is an open document from the Trump team about how the right can seize power forever. In just a few short years, he's completely transformed the GOP into something utterly unrecognizable. If you can't see that, you're just being willfully ignorant. To treat him as an ordinary republican is to legitimize him. Hopefully he loses this time and drops dead before the next election, but it's far too close to say that he won't win this time.
It's that polling I'm talking about. It's a critically close race and even as unpopular as Biden is, I'd still take him over Trump any day and there isn't a single other viable candidate. He'll still need people to vote for him, though. For everything that people don't like about Biden, Trump is even worse and people seem to have forgotten that. With less than a year to go and everyone who isn't Trump or Biden getting little support, our choices are already laid out for us. As nice as it would be to have a "neither" vote option, we don't have that luxury. This is could easily shape up to be a repeat of the 2016 election and the only way to fight it is to vote against Trump, whoever that may be. It sucks, but that's the system we exist in. Every potential voter who abstains only makes a Trump victory more likely, given how strong Trump's position is. We're given the choice between the lesser of two evils and to say "I don't care" doesn't actually teach anyone a lesson. You might not care, but there are many people whose lives would be made measurably worse if Trump were to succeed.
Can't wait for 28 when you libs call the Republican candidate a uniquely dire threat to democracy, that argument is dead, get over it. I'm voting Jill Stein because she represents the platform that you and all Democrats when polled overwhelmingly agree with because that's how voting works.
Just gonna put this here in case you want to read about how similar third party candidates in a two party system negatively impact the outcomes of such candidates.
It's only a two party system because Dem voters are cowards.
I can't wait until 28 when we don't even have to have an election because Trump has removed term limits and installed himself as President for Life, which he's literally expressed interest in doing multiple times throughout his presidency and since. You're being obtuse if you think Trump is anything like Romney, or McCain, or Bush, or anyone else. This ain't the GOP of your childhood. Pretty ironic to complain about Biden's popularity and then say that everyone should vote for someone who won't even get 1% of the vote. Telling people to vote for someone like Stein is just telling people to throw away their vote because you know Stein would never be elected for a wide variety of reasons. Have fun watching your utopianism come crashing down around you as you realize it's not that simple, though. Every practical leftist has already had that experience. I'm just shocked people are still going with this obvious loser of a strategy.
I can’t wait until 28 when we don’t even have to have an election because Trump has removed term limits and installed himself as President for Life,
Deranged take. We both know Trump isn't capable of that, and no it is the exact same GOP and exact same Dems using the exact same arguments that thankfully are starting to fail.
Every practical leftist has already had that experience. I’m just shocked people are still going with this obvious loser of a strategy.
Oh the irony. Your strategy has failed for decades we can go look back at them as evidence. Dems are making a fool out of you.
Have you thought about it for even 2 seconds? The guy who attempted a coup when he failed the election, the guy currently facing a litany of felony charges, the guy able to get republicans to attack their own capitol against democracy is just like any other GOP prez? Get real, dude, this shit is completely unprecedented. The 2025 Plan lays out exactly how the right plans to seize power forever by further packing courts, changing rules, limiting access to voters, and much more. I highly recommend you read it. It's as close to a path to actual fascism as anything the US has ever seen. Name a single comparable document in all of US history. You can just keep your head in the sand if you want, though.
The real deranged take is to say that people like Biden will get Trump elected, when Biden is literally the only contender to prevent such a thing. Your solution? Vote for a non-contender who won't even break a million votes. Yes, you've clearly thought this through. If you're willing to take this gamble, you better stay out Vegas or I'd worry you might lose your house. The other team is taking the ball and instead of doing the best bet to maybe stop them, you stand on the sidelines and protest the game itself instead. That's sure to prevent them from scoring, right? Someone else would be great, but we don't have one who comes even close to being able to win with less than a year out, now. That's just the reality. There is a 0% chance that the president won't be either Trump or Biden, so gun to your head, which would you prefer?
Sure, go ahead and lay out the evidence and the strategies for me.
I only voted for Biden because it was against Trump. I cannot believe with both being near 80, and one facing life in prison, we're doing this same shit again. I don't care. I'm not voting. Give me any reason this makes my life better. Otherwise, let it burn.
Reason number 1: You don't want to live in a hellish dictatorship.
You have two options here: vote for an old guy who did some good stuff or actively or passively vote for fascism.
Yeah, but he's old, and he's not the purity pony that I wanted!!!!
So....both sides are just as bad! Let it burn!
/s
purity pony
You're really trying to make this a thing, aren't you?
No, it's already "a thing".
Cool. Who else is using such a stupid childish moniker for voters that Democrats need but would rather insult?
It's all over the 'net for at least a decade and a half. And these types are well known for checking out when their special candidate was not selected (see: some of the "bernie bros") for the general, and then actively work against the party, or tell everyone to vote for Jill Stein or some other destructive type of behavior...
Note, this is a sombunall kind of thing - not all people that wanted bernie then later work against the party. Just like the PUMAs did not do this. Some people might call me a bernie bro or a purity pony as I'd much rather the party was more progressive, but that would be an incorrect usage.
It’s all over the 'net for at least a decade and a half.
First I heard it was you using it in as many comments as possible in this thread.
not all people that wanted bernie then later work against the party. Just like the PUMAs did not do this.
As a matter of fact, the latter worked against the party in greater proportion than the former. And Sanders' supporters didn't form a PAC to fundraise for the Republican candidate. Clinton's supporters did exactly that in 2008. And then turned around and screamed at everyone to vote blue no matter who.
Well, I don't think the worst behaviors of PUMAs was the least bit helpful, either. Any more than the dumbest of the Bernie Bros (even though I'd much rather have Bernie in there than either Obama, Clinton, or Biden)...trying to put a stick in the spokes of the party because the front runner was not your personal choice is just so unhelpful.
Well, I don’t think the worst behaviors of PUMAs was the least bit helpful, either.
And I think "Party Unity My Ass" followed by "vote blue no matter who" is the absolute height of hypocrisy.
I expect to have more than two options on my ballot.
Then vote for people who think the same or if you live in a state that allows the population to introduce laws start that process.
I do not care. It's hell either way. If anything, the only other option besides hellish dictatorship been promised is not as hellish but slower burning dictatorship.
What ever happen to that student loan forgiveness. Gonna run on that again. Oh I promised last time but this time I pinky promise no take backsies cross my heart.
Fuck off. Let it burn.
You do realise that if more people would have voted for democrats, student loan loan forgivness would have been granted?
But yeah, a society without any social safety net, without rights for minorities, with a stupid state religion and 1000 other horrible things is just as bad as people who in the best case change things and worst case don't make the US worse.
if more people would have voted for democrats, student loan loan forgivness would have been granted
you can't prove that.
No I can't. But you can't prove that they wouldn't either.
With more democrats DC could be a state for example (Biden approves of that), abortian access could be written in law and student loans could be partially forgiven.
But unless you vote, we will never know.
What I know is that Biden DID something about student loans though. For example there is a new repayment plan that does not allow any interest and therefore allows to actually pay off your student loans.
But yeah, that's probably norhing acording to you.
You do realise that if more people would have voted for democrats, student loan loan forgivness would have been granted?
Oh come on. They would do what they always fucking do. They'd find just enough no votes.
Then vote them out in the next primaries or unionize and strike. You have more power than you think.
You have more power than you think.
I'm in Texas. Don't lie to me.
37.06% of voting age population turned out to the 2022 gubernatorial election if 4% more voters that would have voted democrat would have turned up, Texas would now have a democratic governor, but sure you don't have any power.
If you vote and enough others can get out there and vote you can change a state but if you just sit home and do nothing, nothing will happen.
Great. I already vote in every election and primary. In the primaries, party leadership heavily supports anti-choice anti-labor pro-nra candidates like Cuellar. When their efforts to shut progressives out at the primary level fail, they pull the rug out from under them by withholding funding like they did with Vallejo.
Don't lecture me for not being as happy as you are with a party that fights progressives and not Republicans.
Have you tried becoming a State Delegate and influencing the Party Chair? That's a way to influence who gets to decide about supporting whom, isn't it?
I love how centrists' answer to anyone pointing out the party's anti-progressive fuckery is "you're just not doing enough!"
I am definitely not a centrist. I am left and that in Europe but I have enough of people just always blaming others for not getting anything done. This is exactly what happens everywhere right now: People trying to convince voters that their votes don't matter and that will just lead to conservatives, fascists and far-right parties to win. Because they vote all the time.
Shit, if more people voted in the primaries Bernie would have had a stronger hand to negotiate policy if not having been the nominee either time.
But these fucksticks have the gall to wonder why people who aren't them are not voting the way they would for them.
Millennials and Gen Z could be dominating the primary process and yet underperform their share of the overall population, let alone the share they could easily take up in the democratic party if they didn't have to be dragged kicking and screaming to mark some squares on a ballot.
It will be so much worse under fascism. You might not be wild about Biden but if the alternative is fascism...when you say let it burn, that means a lot - and I mean a lot - of people will be harmed, most likely including you.
I think Biden is a fascist.
Ever heard of Hitler or Mussolini? You should read up on them and then consider your words again.
Mussolini is exactly who I was thinking of.
Oh boy! What kind of stuff did you take to think that Biden is comparable to a treacherous mass-murderer with a god complex?
Not getting student loan relief is a maintaining of the status quo, not a "hellish dictatorship". In fact, having the Congress and Courts strike down student loan relief is the POLAR OPPOSITE of a dictatorship.
So fuck the status quo, burn the college debt. I don't even have any, I was smart enough to get full scholarships.
A lot of it isn't what people are smart enough to do, lots of people get tricked into loans they can't pay back.
When our kid went to college, 3 separate schools wanted us taking out loans of $56,000 a year... $224,000 for a 4 year degree...
We told them "Yeah, no..." and enrolled him at a state school for $10K a year, where he had a $5k per year scholarship. I paid the remaining $5K cash.
But I could see other parents, after getting 3 schools telling them the same oddly specific number "Well, I guess that's what school costs!"
But people are still going to stalk my profile and down vote literally every comment I've ever posted regardless of what I agree with you about. Look for yourself if you don't believe me, you're free to view and vote just like those people.
I truly appreciate you being open to discussion, we just can't do it without others putting their uninvolved vote into what they're to scared to confront.
Attitudes like this honestly piss me off more than conservatives. You didn't get the options you wanted, so you decided to just give up, take your ball, and go home. Grow the hell up. We don't quit just because shit looks bleak, we keep on pushing until we can see the sun poking through the clouds, because that is the only way we will ever see it. If we give in to despair now, we will never get there. Even if it seems pointless, or like things aren't getting better, I can guarantee you it can always, ALWAYS be worse. And THAT is your reason to vote.
I'm sorry if that reason isn't as optimistic as you were hoping for, but that's the reality that we live in. And it will never get better if we just bitch about unfairness and bury our heads in the sand. If we want things to get better, we need to make them better. And that starts with you. Please, be better than this. I know you have it in you.
Things are getting worse even with voting though. Voting just makes them slightly less worse.
Then get everyone you know to vote, join a union, organize, strike in the worst case. Voting is not your only option.
BRB, off to bomb an oil pipeline
And for the people for whom that difference is life and death, your apathy is nothing short of collaboration in their murder.
People will die no matter what I choose. They’ll die from failed abortions in Texas or they’ll die from Israeli bombs in Gaza. The world is shit and has gotten worse despite me voting as often as I can.
And yet it will get even worse if you don't, and it will be your fault for not doing so.
When you have the choice between bad and not as bad, letting bad win puts the responsibility for that on your shoulders.
You don't get to call yourself an ally if you don't commit to the work of harm mitigation.
If you choose to not even do the minimum amount of work of solidarity, you are the white moderate Dr. King railed about in Birmingham.
All the frilly talk of supporting the cause with none of the action to back it up. Having to be bullied shamed and yelled at for the soul crushing Herculean task of standing in a line to fill a form out.
I do not care. You're bitching more than I am. Grow up and live your life free of internet nonsense like I am.
No, actually they're really not. You just don't like someone arguing against you.
free of internet nonsense like I am.
Then why are you here?
Because they're sooooo edgy and cool. I don't understand why "I am actively hostile to everyone around me and want to prevent any positive change" is how someone wants to experience life, but there it is. They can't be free of any nonsense, nonsense is literally all they are.
To watch it burn
The fact that you'll be watching is why the people who'll be burning will remember your name as a collaborator in what is done to them.
Grow up and live your life free of internet nonsense like I am.
Bruh I keep seeing your name pop up multiple times in this thread and you're always complaining about getting downvoted as if it matters or something.
You sound insufferable to be around and your comments read like someone who is compulsively online and just figured out how to base their personality around an edgelord DnD character.
Seriously in one comment someone asked why you're even here and you responded with "let it burn" or "watch it burn" or some variation of that. Straight up same energy as saying I brood in a dark corner of the tavern lol. Get that 2010 edgelord cringe out of here man. Take your ass to a gym and get out of that nihilistic funk
The world may have a gun pointed at its head but that don't mean you need to give it the ammo
I live in memes. I exist to piss you off. But you'll never realize this. You want to be angry. You need someone to be mad about. Have fun, I am.
I live in memes
Oh no, this isn't your average everyday cringe, this is... ADVANCED CRINGE!
lol, you sound like a tool bro, and not even a good one. More like one of those shitty allen wrenches that is tossed in the back of a drawer and is always too small or too large to fit anything.
Seriously bro, do yourself a favor, disconnect from the computer and hit the gym or find a hobby. This 2010 edgelord stuff is hilarious if you're a troll. But kinda sad if you're not trolling
I do not care what you believe.
Care so little you sent me two separate love messages like an unhinged ex 😘
As someone who has elderly in-laws, as someone who has a child, as someone who doesn’t want to inflict suffering on others regardless if they are a “shit lib” or an aging maga voter, I don’t see any utility in letting it “burn”. You don’t recover from this. If you want to see how that works, look at Russia. People are just resound to the fact that this is the best they could look forward to. After decades of government control, people just wilt and accept it as the new normal. It’s not fun. It’s not heroic. It’s just sad.
My family fled Russia in the 1980s prior to the collapse because my family saw bad getting worse. This could easily happen to the U.S. I don’t get how helping fuel this with apathy results in anything better.
As someone who's father was drafted into Vietnam against his will, someone who's never been able to have lasting relationships or children, been in debt for the education and career I was told was necessary to sacrifice my potential to have a family for to stop never ending war and economic crisis. We thought I got out because I didn't need a GI bill like my father.
Everyone thinks the US is so good. I'm not discounting want you've experience. But you don't know motown, or south side Chicago, or any or these things in implying. The same way I don't know your struggle.
Nothing you said has much relevance to what I said. I wasn’t talking about my struggle or yours for that matter. I was trying to offer an explanation of where things could be heading if we elect republicans. The result of which will impact the people who the need the most help. Not once did I mention the U.S. being good. Nor did I make any references to things being ok. But things can get significantly worse.
It’s fine if you don’t care. I just hope your level of empathy is not contagious because unfortunately, despite how awful Biden has been on many policies, it could get so much worse. And I have too many important people in my life to casually give up.
If I had the talent, I’d be running for local office to try and make some significant changes. Since I don’t, I will do my best to vote for the most left wing folks into office in the hopes that we can empower them to change from within.
I don't think we're understanding each other, it's neither of our faults. We're trying to talk about something deeply complex through a few text comments on the internet.
I appreciate you taking the time to try and convey what you feel the best you can. That is what I want. Unfortunately, lemmy is even worse about people disagreeing with you and down voting your entire profile. I now have people commenting on meme threads yelling at me about this. People here have too much time to be legal stalkers.
Another point of how far left drives away anyone who isn't a extreme as them. And you wonder why I've given up.
Holy shit I can farm down votes by replying to myself because people are sooooo butthurt. Reddit 2.0 here we go!!!!
3 replies deep and I'm still getting down votes. Come on incels, your cults are stronger.
Points gun at dick
Shouts menacingly: I’ll fucken do it!
If only it was their OWN dick that these people were pointing a gun at...
I'm sorry, I thought this was America. Cannot not castrate myself fully a full auto?
In this case, it's not about either choice making your life better, it's about one choice actively making your life worse vs. Joe "nothing will fundamentally change" Biden.
When did the Democrats become the status quo party? 🤔
I don't agree with Republicans. Its not one side vs the other. Grow up, embrace a more than 2 part state.
If you think any third party has a shot when the Democratic party and the Republican party control the debate schedule, you have no business calling anyone else a child.
The next Predident will be from one of the two major parties, so will the one after that... and after that.
Voting for a 3rd party who gets between 1 and 5% of the vote will not change that, any more than writing in a candidate will. All you will do is throw away your vote.
Tbf, he should abdicate to a younger Democrat. I don't want to "settle for Joe".
I was pissed when Bernie Sanders had the rug pulled out from under him.
I really want to consolidate, but not under Joe Biden.
I want change. I want new ideas. Progress and solutions. Biden has been in government for over fifty years- most of that in the senate for over 40 years.
He’s been a senator longer than I’ve been alive
It’s not a question of age. It’s a question of stagnation.
I'll take stagnation over fascism. What is the short term plan? I mean, what happens if the orange blob snakes his way back in because the purity ponies and the "independents" stomped their feet and had a hissy?
If that guy and his cohort get back in, it is most likely over for real elections in America.
It's clear that the party prefers stagnation to progress as well.
progress > stagnation >>>>>>> fascism
I don't understand people who go "if I can't have progress and I'm forced to vote for stagnation in order to prevent fascism, then I'm fine with fascism."
It does not follow that everyone who isn't overjoyed with stagnation wants fascism.
It is if you're willing to let the fascists win because of it.
Well, I'm voting for Biden. It's a shame that the party would rather stagnate and lose than progress and win.
Because the people offering stagnation are benefiting from the fascism. They're two sides of one coin and every time you flip the coin the sharp edges slice the throat of a poor person.
Besides, it's not stagnation, that implies not moving. We are actually moving backwards and the reason why republicans are able to ban abortion, engage in blatant corruption, and run for president whilst on trial is because the "stagnation" side refuses to mount a proper offence because, again, they're all benefitting from the situation.
I'd almost rather see our government burn down and get replaced by another than let status quo limp along another four years.
Real issues that real Americans want fixed have been ignored by Dems and Repubs alike for longer than I've been alive. Real issues, like widespread poverty wages, declining quality in public education, inaccess to healthcare, the prison system, terrible public transport in cities, no social safety nets, little action against climate change, etc. These issues have only gotten worse over time, so why would I vote for the status quo knowing that?
Hell, the "good" party in charge right now is actively supporting genocide in the east and keeping healthcare so expensive at homr that I can't get a cavity filled without taking lien out on my car. I'll never own a home despite being an engineer and having virtually zero debt. Life as an American fucking sucks, and if the last 80 years of American politics are anything to go by, then voting in the status quo in 2024 will continue making life worse.
The only American government that's been in charge while I've been alive has done nothing but make my life worse. If things continue this way, maybe Americans will finally reach their tipping point 100 years from now and grow the balls to take their government back. I'd rather not wait that long.
Stagnation is just the slow road to fascism.
I bet making fun of them is a great way to gain their favor.
Is there some kind of outreach for people that want white supremacy and xtian nationalism that would work for Hillary?
I think the Democrats are fascist.
Then vote for someone else in the primaries. But as soon as it is the general election it is either the democrat or fascism. Even if you don't vote at all, it will just strengthen the fascist party.
There's no Democratic primary this year.
I mean, Dean Phillips and Marianne Williamson would probably disagree.
They know. They're gloating.
You’re right about what we have to do, but are we even having primaries this time? Because of how the primary process was scheduled in 2020 Biden had the nomination all but locked up by the time I got to vote in them. I’m 100% voting for Biden, you can look into my comments and find me admonishing some asshole advocating for third party presidential candidates over Biden. But I do understand the frustration with having to vote again for someone I didn’t want the first time and isn’t representative of the direction I want the country to move in besides not wanting to be in a fascist theocracy.
That is a fair point. The primary system as well as the election system as a whole should probably reformedbut that is nearly impossible without flipping a lot of States.
I'm from Switzerland and we had a similar voting system for a long time. It was only changed by implementing more ways for the populace to directly decide about matters in both the Cantons (States) and Switzerland as a whole. So this might be a good way to implement change as it gives people a specific matter to vote on.
In Switzerland it was made possible by populists that wanted a more direct democracy.
So I hope something like this is possible for the US as well as many things like legalized weed, abortion access, a good health insurance system or voting reforms often have a stable majority among the voters, they just don't vote accordingly.
I hope so too, at this point I’m at a loss, based on my general observations about my country as a whole I don’t see any way that the changes the world desperately needs will happen because of the structure of our government alongside the culture of individualism that has led to the communal alienation we have for each other now. I don’t like how hopeless I’ve become but looking at things from a high level things are pretty bleak
The primaries are mostly determined by the parties. There will be a primary this year in New Hampshire where only the Republican result counts, because they Democrats reordered their primary schedule so New Hampshire wasn't first and New Hampshire has a law saying they must hold theirs first. So their vote will happen but just doesn't count.
In the end it's the parties that decide who their nominee will be, by the rules they make up, so that's where reform needs to happen.
Then vote for politicans that you think will change that or advocate for direct democracy, join a union, strike there are many ways to get more political influence!
I'm not responding to say it can't change, I'm explaining you how the primary half of the problem works. Changing a private organization is potentially easier than changing a law, but at the same time does not have a definite method of voting on it.
The electoral college decides who takes office. I vote third party because the popular vote doesn't mean shit (in most states iirc) and I want to do my part to show, statistically, that the democrats need to move left. We can't have two far-right parties in control of this country, and so long as they're running with Biden that's what they are.
Even in Europe the Democrats wouldn't be considered to be far right. They are a big tent party spanning from center to left.
I have to disagree strongly with that first part, but of course that's what they want people across the world to think- there is very little room for leftists in practice.
I think the Democrats are fascist.
You should learn more about fascists then because that is obviously wrong.
I believe it's largely a matter of interpreting the facts. if you have a bias that prevents you from from believing the Democrats could be fascist that might stand in your way of coming to the same conclusion I did.
Where is your evidence? Believing doesn't count.
bidens FBI just labeled antifascism extreme.
The influence of the president on the FBI is quite limited.
Feel free to suspect massive faschist influences in the FBI (like in most law enforcement organizations), as that is probably true. So unless you have a personal message from Biden to the Boss of the FBI, this is not evidence at all.
it's an executive agency. the chief executive absolutely has influence.
Put aside that you might sympathize with antifascist goals. From a law and order perspective, would you argue that the FBI is wrong? I don't think so. Extremism in resisting fascism is kind of their thing.
i am an insurrectionary anarchist. i believe laws are bad, and the fbi is the jackbooted gestapo.
I want to vote to change the voting system. We deserve to vote for who we trust with the job rather than against the candidate we fear most.
I have to compartmentalize pretty hard each election cycle. I wish I had time to campaign for a voting system change, but I haven't.
Should have been Bernie. SMH
It won't work. Conceding the already filled chair is seen as a weakness and they will parade that thought around. We know better, but they will not let the Dems live it down. It's the Dem nomination in 28 that matters. This year is Joe and maybe Trump. Depending on the stupidity of the Reps.
That would nearly guarantee a win for Trump. Incumbency advantage is strong as is name recognition. I don't like Biden either but he's better than a literal fascist. If Trump wins in 2024 there will not be an election in 2028.
I think Biden is a literal fascist.
OK, that's an opinion. But Trump and the Republican party is literally trying to take over the government and replace most executive positions. There's no evidence Biden is trying to do that or anything as immediate or exteme.
In that position and in your point of view, they are both fascists. But Trump is a fascist that is trying to commit a coup NOW and Biden isn't.
I am 100% for trying to primary Biden. If there's enough support Biden doesn't win the nomination that'd be great! But abdication or forcing him out just because old is a good way to lose faith in the electorate. A better plan would be to have a VP that is a good presidential candidate in case he has to resign due to age.
I'm not going to be voting for Biden under any foreseeable circumstance. he could forgive my student loan, and gimme that $2k he promised me 3 years ago. I don't think he has the backbone to do either of those, though
Ok so a Trump voter then. Or the equivalent. The Republicans get a win from you.
I'm not voting for Trump, either.
It's a two party system. Not voting for one of the two is as good as voting for the one for like least. You're depriving the one who's less bad of a vote. That's how the party system works. You need to put down your principles once we're at the final stage and make the choice that is least worst for you.
To put it in perspective: if it was Biden vs literally dying, would you still not vote for Biden? We're not quite there, but it's close: potential end of democracy.
Democrats' only real message to their constituents.
Thats not entirely fair they also have 'Nothing will fundamentally change' and you know you can believe that one because it's the one they told the people who pay them.
Then welcome round 2 of Trump and the final round of democracy. When the blame game happens, people like you and the above spammer will be held to account for your refusal to compromise. You're no better than Republicans. In fact, you are all worse. Because at least Republicans know what they're about. Pathetic.
I'm voting for Biden. I'm sure that won't stop you from blaming me anyway. Honestly, you'd rather lose and have someone to blame than win by appealing to us worthless voters.
no.
wrong.
we're not a democracy, we never have been, and that's a good thing: democracy is bad.
More of this nonsense. Spent a fair bit of time on Reddit explaining to folks that few young people turned out for Bernie in the primary. That space was/is replete with apologists digging every conspiracy out of the book instead of acknowledging that Biden simply drew the most votes. And then of course there's a bit of obviousness that never gets addressed: Trump handing Bernie his ass.
Here we are again. Where are the primary voters? Seems a handful of people care to make noise over the results but only a fraction of that number even care to turn out for them. What does turn out is that most people don't end up giving a fuck about voting anything but the presidential election.
I'm sure the collective delusion feels good to immerse oneself in though.
There was no Biden to begin with. Bernie starts gaining traction and then, what? Biden comes out of the woodwork at the 11th hour to split the dem vote and gets bankrolled to prevent a far-left and progressive democrat party. Yeah, he was running on donations from the public, but he was absolutely gaining traction. He absolutely was sabotaged.
Yes? Biden won a lot of moderate states on Super Tuesday, and then a bunch of milque toast candidates dropped out and endorsed the same. Sanders strategy was to gain momentum in the early bellwether and had some success. It just didn't translate country wide, and South Carolina showed the beginning of that pretty clearly.
It's neat how red states get to decide who our nominee is. South Carolina should not be a kingmaker. They are not indicative of what a state that helps us in the general acts like.
We wonder why we keep winning the popular vote and losing the electoral college.
The kingmaker idea is why the Bernie campaign focused so heavily on Iowa and New Hampshire. And South Carolina, actually. And I totally agree, the primaries should all be on the same day.
I think the primaries should go from bluest state to reddest.
There were shenanigans to sink Bernie's ship. That being said, while I'd have been happy with him, there's no way he could've won looking at the map in hindsight. So I'm glad because Biden is better than another four years of Trump.
You're 100% correct that all the enthusiasm online didn't turn out young voters in the primary, and all the complaints about old people winning elections are mostly from the same demographic that didn't turn out to vote. They turned out in slightly greater numbers than usual but there is an untapped well of political power to change things if young people actually got each other to vote.
And time and time again you people refuse to look at the collusion against him by the DNC.
What he could have achieved if the party and media had worked with him instead of against him is anyone’s guess, but he did an amazing job in spite of them.
Who tf is "you people"? What makes you think this person is unaware of the blatant smear campaign against Bernie?
Here's the thing - what is the viable alternative? We are talking the orange blob otherwise, which means fascism, and the end of democracy in this nation.
Is Biden perfect? Of course not. Is he too old? Yeah, most likely. All the purity ponies and the so-called "independents" that are setting us up for another "win" (EC only) of the orange blob are not really thinking this through...
This is where I'm at. Biden is not my preferred candidate, but I don't see a better alternative stepping up. Witmer, Newsome, Shapiro, etc have all opted not to run. Joe Biden is the strongest candidate running for president that can and has beat Trump, end of story. I'd love to live in a world where I can vote for a young progressive in the 2024 general election, but we simply don't live in that world. The focus should be on pushing Biden to the left, not complaining that he's taking the place of some imagined candidate that doesn't exist.
They've opted not to challenge Biden, that doesn't mean if he stepped aside we'd just have some nobody. Unfortunately he really is the decision point on whether we're stuck with him, and people who become president aren't known for their propensity to fade into the background and let someone else take charge.
I want to preface this by saying I'm voting for Biden.
So, those people still exist. The party still needs their votes. Browbeating ain't gonna bring them on board. Is the party going to try appealing to them, or does it prefer Dictator Trump to lowering itself to treating the left like valued constituents?
I'm voting for Biden. But I'm also disappointed that the stuff he ran on was gleefully jettisoned by the congress that he said would work with him because of his experience. The people who are happy that minimum wage stayed put and most of BBB was gutted are now turning around and being like "vote for us! you have no choice!" and it looks for all the world like they're taking advantage of the situation.
People are giving up. Out of apathy, out of disgust, because they feel betrayed. Fuck, I'm voting for Biden and I'm feeling apathetic, disgusted, and betrayed.
Biden has 11 months to turn this around. His supporters who are demanding unquestioning happiness from everyone who has been let down by this administration aren't moving that needle in the direction that gets him re-elected. But damn, does it feel good to browbeat people who see what's coming if the party doesn't alter course.
This last sentence is the fourth time I'm going to mention that I'm voting for Biden, and I expect all four will be ignored.
Another Biden voter here:
Member the democratic primary when Joe threatened to beat up somebody questioning his (questionable as hell) record?
I member.
People don't get it, like fuck Biden. Fuck trump more, of course, but fuck Biden. And fuck all these people who want you to spoon the shit soup in with a smile.
They did the same thing to us this time as they do every time. They lied to get us to vote for them then turned around and feigned helplessness when we demanded they actually follow through.
It feels like our choices are "dark path that leads to widespread political violence" or "dark path that continues existing political violence on a smaller scale."
Isn't the BBB a private company
You're thinking of the Better Business Bureau, which is a private company. I was referring to Build Back Better, which was Biden's plan that the party's republican-adjacent wing gutted.
My comment is not really aimed at people that are voting for Biden, while recognizing his issues. I'm in the same camp. Do I want a more progressive candidate? Yes. Do I wish the Democratic Party was much more progressive than it is? Hell yes.
My comment is about people that are either too cynical/too pure and insist they are going to remain "above it all" by either bowing out entirely, or throwing their vote away on ridiculous third party candidates. Or even worse, voting for donnie in the hope of some accelerationist BS fantasy that is going to put leftists in the seat of power, somehow.
I'm not sure if I'm more sick of that type, or the entirely low-info that keep claiming, no matter what the facts are, that "the economy is terrible", so it doesn't really matter who wins (and will vote for donnie in some cases, because "Biden is old" or some other fiddly irrelevant nonsense). All I know is that between these two types, our country is hanging in the balance...
The people you're insulting and belittling are disappointed about the same things you claim to be disappointed about. How are you going to get them on board? You need them on board. Our very democracy hangs in the balance.
Do you suppose that infantile mockery will do the trick?
How many of the people that are advocating to vote for the likes of Jill Stein - of those that are not just Russian bots/agents and are people even acting in good faith, that is - do you think are reachable? People that seem to take their cues from the likes of Susan Sarandon don't strike me as a market segment that will be convinced by anything.
People playing the "more leftist than thou" game don't seem all that serious to me. And calling them purity ponies is hardly a harsh criticism, it perfectly embodies their behaviors and emotional hysterias - if they don't get their way, 100%, they are willing to put the entire world in jeopardy.
Does that strike you as rational?
I didn't say it was harsh. I said it was infantile.
Rational or not, if you need their votes, you need their votes.
I don't think it's infantile to describe the behavior in precise terms.
I find it so interesting that the party that keeps abandoning its stated principles so that GOP-senpai will notice them refuses to treat people in their own caucus like they need their votes.
How many times do we have to keep voting for the lesser evil. The more years I've been doing this the more voting for the lesser evil I hear.
Until the people who don't want the job are so fed up with how it's being done that they take the job themselves.
That's some of what sets apart an earnest politician from a corrupt one.
Personally, I think society would benefit if I got into politics. But I have so much work to do on my personal life that I don't have anything left to give. Maybe someday when I am on more sure footing, I can throw my hat in the ring and start getting involved in small scale local politics to see if I have any chops for it, but I don't know when that might be.
If we keep asking why are all these people in charge assholes, I have to ask, well why don't you run for office then?
And the sad reality seems to be that it's only the people comfortable and stable enough in life that they have the security and freedom to get into politics. Those people tend to be wealthier people they are also older. And that is not a demographic that is very representative of the teeming masses.
But hell, we barely even vote in this country. Other countries put us to shame when considering voter turnout. Voting should be the absolute bare minimum level of effort.
Until people get pissed off enough to start being politically active and not just passive participants in the process. When the "high bar" is merely "showing up to vote after glancing over the candidates" what do people expect?
Get involved in local politics. Volunteer for candidates that reflect your actual ideals -- or run for a local office yourself. Actually talk to other voters about issues, form coalitions to do something about it. Annoy the shit out of your elected officials and hold them accountable. Be loud, be pissed off, and use that energy to do something other than complain on social media about it.
Anyone that actually wants change needs to realize it requires being and active participant in politics. The problem is most people don't because it's frequently frustrating, disheartening, and exhausting work just for minor change. It's a thankless slog towards a better future on top of just trying to survive.
I understand the sentiment but most people just don't have the time or energy for that. I'm a busy person, got a young one around that needs my help every day - and I need to be able to help put people into office that reflect my ideals without actively being involved. That shouldn't be a large ask.
And we should be able to do that. But we Americans love to complain about the current state of affairs, yet we put more energy into complaining than we do actually voting. Our voter turnout for presidential elections is already way behind other countries, our mid terms are worse, our general elections the remaining odd years are worse still, and oh my God... The primaries....
The primaries are where we can actually redefine the political parties and fill them with new earnest candidates. Possibly the most important of all the elections, that's where we have virtually non-existent turnout.
Our government is exactly what we made out of it.
There will be multiple Climate Wars ongoing before they consider that it may be the time to try and break away from the two parties that caused it.
The alternative is PRIMARY HIM. That ass doesn’t deserve our vote and his hubris that he will get it no matter what is driving this country into a game of chicken with madness. He must retire and the only way he will listen is if we credibly refuse to support him NOW
Didn't he initially say he was going to be a one termer? If so, he should keep his word. Either way, he should be primaries.
What does the lemmy hive mind think of Marianne Williamson?
She was dismissed four years ago as bonkers. Right or wrong, that stuck. She stands no chance.
I would guess that the prevailing sentiment here is "Not Biden? ENEMY!"
Politics is a process. This is the time where the parties (all two) have to sort out their policy platform and the candidates to run on that platform.
So it isn't just about it being Biden, let alone Trump. The "alternative" can also include a Biden actually pivoting to a different, more popular set of policies. He could even get some mileage on the things he ran on in 2020 and has barely moved on since, like public healthcare option or a minimum wage increase.
The bigger problem is Biden now has a 3 term track record in the White House snubbing progressive policy.
He can't promise anything anymore, he has to actually deliver, and he is running out of time, if he hasn't already. (He most likely has.)
Trump flavored candidates have done terribly in almost every election since, pretending Trump winning is a forgone conclusion is doomer rhetoric.
I don't believe Biden isn't a fascist.
I don’t believe Trump isn’t a fascist.
Fixed it for you.
both can be true.
Biden started out well in 21 and 22 because he tried to appeal to his progressive base. That being said, Biden is a fucking moron if he believes his neolib pivot didn't hurt his poll numbers.
It's not too late, Biden needs to pivot back to progressive policies instead of this blame the voters BS like Hillary tried. Blame leaders, not voters.
So, you have a choice. a less than perfect candidate, or someone who has already endorsed the idea of suspending the Constitution and A-bombing Palestine.
I expect to have more options on my ballot.
Why? When have you ever had a perfect candidate? I like what NYC ex-mayor Ed Koch said. "If you agree with me 51% of the time, vote for me. If you agree with me 100% of the time, see a doctor."
I expect to have more options because I usually do.
Yeah, but in a first-past-the-post system, you don't.
Is that complete and utter crap, should the FPTP system be launched into the sun and replaced with a system that actually gave people choices, would a parliamentary system be better, is the Electorate College just an abomination based on a compromise with long dead slave owners, should every vote carry the same weight?
Well, there you go.
But in the current system, you'll only ever have two choices.
So choose wisely.
I usually have 4 or more options on my ballot
How many times in U.S. History have the 3rd or 4th options been elected to the office of President? When the answer is zero, how do you count them as options?
You are literally more likely to win the lottery than you are to elect a third party to U.S. President.
it's my right to vote for the person I want to win. I don't vote for people I don't want to win.
I will vote for a progressive, if trump is elected its on the center dems for failing.
Dobbs happened because of you.
It happened because of the 40 years of failure of the democratic party in their ambivalence to the willing efforts of the republican party to destroy democracy. They will fail us in the defense of democracy. All that continues not to demand a fundamental change are the problem.
wrong
It says a lot that this piece doesn’t even acknowledge Biden’s advocacy for Israel’s genocide as any kind of factor in his sinking support.
Trump's people think Biden is holding back and that we should be assisting Israel even more. There are Evangelicals who believe that we should nuke the whole Middle East to bring about the end times.
I really don't see not voting for Biden
That’s on purpose, conservative leaning media has been pushing the Hamas Israel conflict whenever possible but it’s fuckin crickets when Joe fucking Biden and blinken actually pull out a cease fire and hostage swap, with more to come.
They just want Donald back to up their clicks as everyone wakes up and sees what wild fascist bs he has done that day.
And you better believe the hill is conservative owned and biased. Just look at how they behaved during the dark years
fuck the hill, right wing owned and biased trash
Just look at the word they chose for the title, implying they are just shouting down any dissent at all. Fuck these media fascist lovers
Another example: https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/18/media/jimmy-finkelstein-the-hill-ukraine/index.html
gestures broadly at thread
Oh yeah? Why don't you just shut your big ol' fat mouth?!
Yeah, heard a less polite version of that one in earnest already in this thread.
Except for Tom Daschle who gave a pretty non-committal response, the names in this article seem like nobodies. Why are the statements of random consultants a news story? Who cares what the "deputy campaign manager for John Kerry’s 2004 presidential run" or a "senior policy adviser at Holland & Knight and former senior policy adviser to Vice President Harris" says?
I sure hope these aren't the names that come up when someone asks "who are Biden's closest allies".
Probably the same folks who decided to put 81 candles on a tiny cake
This is the best summary I could come up with:
But some Democrats say comments like Axelrod’s aren’t helping especially as Biden continues to face poor polling numbers, encouraging the party to instead coalesce around the president to give him a boost.
That followed a New York Times and Siena College poll earlier this month that found Trump leading Biden in critical battleground states.
Senate Democrats are also now pushing back hard on criticism from within their own party, dismissing concerns about Biden’s electability as counterproductive.
Messina, Obama’s 2012 campaign manager, has been an advocate for Biden on social media, posting on X this week, “Polls a year out are about as good at predicting election results as a magic 8 ball would be.” Plouffe, Obama’s 2008 campaign manager, has long warned against Democrats ‘bedwetting’ and worrying about political outcomes.
Meanwhile, independent presidential candidate Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has been polling with a high favorability in recent surveys, which some find problematic.
The campaign has a year to show voters the difference they’ve made and the significant legislative success over the first term, amidst extreme odds,” Nelson said.
The original article contains 1,223 words, the summary contains 178 words. Saved 85%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
Brocialists being dragged kicking and screaming even to vote for their own guy in the primary then wonder why the policy heads pivot right towards independents who will actually turn out to vote.
Ultra Lefties being the self righteous collaborators with fascists since Weimar and the Spanish Civil War.
May those of us who actually need solidarity die quickly and quietly so they can feel oh so cathartic for "avenging" us.
Get better soon <3
I would but the brocialists vote striking so damn much means I can't afford healthcare to get better! Even in the fucking primaries against the candidates in favor of fully public medicine!
If you don't like Joe Biden, they only way to tell the Democratic party to change is by voting for Jill Stein.
They will keep sabotaging the primaries to get trash like Joe Biden until you leave and make them change.
LOL, the Russian cutout? No THANK YOU.
she's not a Russian cutout.
Are all 234k members in the Green party US Russian plants?
This type of mentality is how Trump gets re-elected. And it's looking more and more like it will be the end of democracy in the US if that happens.
No, Joe Biden is how Trump can get re-elected. This wouldn't be a problem if you didn't vote for terrible candidates like Joe Biden in the first place.
Last time was literally a choice between Biden and Trump. You're saying by voting in the guy who wasn't Trump, we gave Trump the presidency? So, we should have simply allowed him to win with his highly mobilized and motivated supporters? That's a brilliant strategy, I wonder how that would have played out. Surely, an awesome third option would have magically appeared at the last second and won it all, right? Like, what do you even want from people? You don't like Trump, but you also don't like when people vote against him. If people hadn't voted Biden in, though, we'd already be in another Trump presidency right now.
It sounds like what you're advocating is that we had a better front-runner than Biden in the first place, one so amazing that they'd obviously blow Trump right out of the water. I also want that, but we didn't/don't and we as voters have no control over who runs, that's just wishful thinking. Yes, we should have better candidates. Where are they? In the meantime, we have no choice but to take the reality that we have, even if it means biting our tongues and voting for Biden again. It will once again come down to Biden vs Trump and to let Trump run away with this one would be a big mistake.
Nope. You're always keeping Republicans in contention by allowing Democrats to take advantage of you. Dems will change once they have to, until then you'll get more Biden like candidates. You really want Buttigieg next? That's what you'll get unless you vote for someone else.
And yet, for everyone to sit back and not vote for Biden would be to allow Trump to win, a much bigger deal than possibly being taken advantage of in some vague and nebulous way. Are you so upset at the DNC that you'd accept fascism as an alternative? As awful as Trump is, the GOP is largely united behind him and rabidly loyal to him. You aren't going to beat them by splitting the vote and bringing in relative unknowns. I'm registered Green myself, but Stein got 1.1% of the vote in 2016 and less than half that in 2020. They've never won a single national election, never even a single seat in Congress. As great as it would be, there is just no way the Green Party will be able to pull something like that off.
In the face of an intolerable and catastrophic alternative such as Trump, Biden not being amazingly popular unfortunately means we actually have to act more decisively in support of him instead of less. I'm not saying you have to like him, but this is perhaps one of the most important elections of our lifetimes and worse yet, the outcome is far from certain. If Trump wins, being able to say, "Well, at least I didn't vote for Biden!" would be a very hollow victory.
Heard this same old story every 4 years my entire life. It's starting to not work anymore, just look at Biden's polling. People are realizing its a scam.
As long as Trump is running, that's the reality, though. Trump is nothing like any GOP candidate that's ever run in anyone's life. If anything, he seems worse now than he did in 2016. The 2025 plan is an open document from the Trump team about how the right can seize power forever. In just a few short years, he's completely transformed the GOP into something utterly unrecognizable. If you can't see that, you're just being willfully ignorant. To treat him as an ordinary republican is to legitimize him. Hopefully he loses this time and drops dead before the next election, but it's far too close to say that he won't win this time.
It's that polling I'm talking about. It's a critically close race and even as unpopular as Biden is, I'd still take him over Trump any day and there isn't a single other viable candidate. He'll still need people to vote for him, though. For everything that people don't like about Biden, Trump is even worse and people seem to have forgotten that. With less than a year to go and everyone who isn't Trump or Biden getting little support, our choices are already laid out for us. As nice as it would be to have a "neither" vote option, we don't have that luxury. This is could easily shape up to be a repeat of the 2016 election and the only way to fight it is to vote against Trump, whoever that may be. It sucks, but that's the system we exist in. Every potential voter who abstains only makes a Trump victory more likely, given how strong Trump's position is. We're given the choice between the lesser of two evils and to say "I don't care" doesn't actually teach anyone a lesson. You might not care, but there are many people whose lives would be made measurably worse if Trump were to succeed.
Can't wait for 28 when you libs call the Republican candidate a uniquely dire threat to democracy, that argument is dead, get over it. I'm voting Jill Stein because she represents the platform that you and all Democrats when polled overwhelmingly agree with because that's how voting works.
https://electionscience.org/library/the-spoiler-effect/
Just gonna put this here in case you want to read about how similar third party candidates in a two party system negatively impact the outcomes of such candidates.
It's only a two party system because Dem voters are cowards.
I can't wait until 28 when we don't even have to have an election because Trump has removed term limits and installed himself as President for Life, which he's literally expressed interest in doing multiple times throughout his presidency and since. You're being obtuse if you think Trump is anything like Romney, or McCain, or Bush, or anyone else. This ain't the GOP of your childhood. Pretty ironic to complain about Biden's popularity and then say that everyone should vote for someone who won't even get 1% of the vote. Telling people to vote for someone like Stein is just telling people to throw away their vote because you know Stein would never be elected for a wide variety of reasons. Have fun watching your utopianism come crashing down around you as you realize it's not that simple, though. Every practical leftist has already had that experience. I'm just shocked people are still going with this obvious loser of a strategy.
Deranged take. We both know Trump isn't capable of that, and no it is the exact same GOP and exact same Dems using the exact same arguments that thankfully are starting to fail.
Oh the irony. Your strategy has failed for decades we can go look back at them as evidence. Dems are making a fool out of you.
Have you thought about it for even 2 seconds? The guy who attempted a coup when he failed the election, the guy currently facing a litany of felony charges, the guy able to get republicans to attack their own capitol against democracy is just like any other GOP prez? Get real, dude, this shit is completely unprecedented. The 2025 Plan lays out exactly how the right plans to seize power forever by further packing courts, changing rules, limiting access to voters, and much more. I highly recommend you read it. It's as close to a path to actual fascism as anything the US has ever seen. Name a single comparable document in all of US history. You can just keep your head in the sand if you want, though.
The real deranged take is to say that people like Biden will get Trump elected, when Biden is literally the only contender to prevent such a thing. Your solution? Vote for a non-contender who won't even break a million votes. Yes, you've clearly thought this through. If you're willing to take this gamble, you better stay out Vegas or I'd worry you might lose your house. The other team is taking the ball and instead of doing the best bet to maybe stop them, you stand on the sidelines and protest the game itself instead. That's sure to prevent them from scoring, right? Someone else would be great, but we don't have one who comes even close to being able to win with less than a year out, now. That's just the reality. There is a 0% chance that the president won't be either Trump or Biden, so gun to your head, which would you prefer?
Sure, go ahead and lay out the evidence and the strategies for me.
I like you
Ty
I only voted for Biden because it was against Trump. I cannot believe with both being near 80, and one facing life in prison, we're doing this same shit again. I don't care. I'm not voting. Give me any reason this makes my life better. Otherwise, let it burn.
Reason number 1: You don't want to live in a hellish dictatorship.
You have two options here: vote for an old guy who did some good stuff or actively or passively vote for fascism.
Yeah, but he's old, and he's not the purity pony that I wanted!!!!
So....both sides are just as bad! Let it burn!
/s
You're really trying to make this a thing, aren't you?
No, it's already "a thing".
Cool. Who else is using such a stupid childish moniker for voters that Democrats need but would rather insult?
It's all over the 'net for at least a decade and a half. And these types are well known for checking out when their special candidate was not selected (see: some of the "bernie bros") for the general, and then actively work against the party, or tell everyone to vote for Jill Stein or some other destructive type of behavior...
Note, this is a sombunall kind of thing - not all people that wanted bernie then later work against the party. Just like the PUMAs did not do this. Some people might call me a bernie bro or a purity pony as I'd much rather the party was more progressive, but that would be an incorrect usage.
First I heard it was you using it in as many comments as possible in this thread.
As a matter of fact, the latter worked against the party in greater proportion than the former. And Sanders' supporters didn't form a PAC to fundraise for the Republican candidate. Clinton's supporters did exactly that in 2008. And then turned around and screamed at everyone to vote blue no matter who.
Well, I don't think the worst behaviors of PUMAs was the least bit helpful, either. Any more than the dumbest of the Bernie Bros (even though I'd much rather have Bernie in there than either Obama, Clinton, or Biden)...trying to put a stick in the spokes of the party because the front runner was not your personal choice is just so unhelpful.
And I think "Party Unity My Ass" followed by "vote blue no matter who" is the absolute height of hypocrisy.
I expect to have more than two options on my ballot.
Then vote for people who think the same or if you live in a state that allows the population to introduce laws start that process.
I do not care. It's hell either way. If anything, the only other option besides hellish dictatorship been promised is not as hellish but slower burning dictatorship.
What ever happen to that student loan forgiveness. Gonna run on that again. Oh I promised last time but this time I pinky promise no take backsies cross my heart.
Fuck off. Let it burn.
You do realise that if more people would have voted for democrats, student loan loan forgivness would have been granted?
But yeah, a society without any social safety net, without rights for minorities, with a stupid state religion and 1000 other horrible things is just as bad as people who in the best case change things and worst case don't make the US worse.
you can't prove that.
No I can't. But you can't prove that they wouldn't either.
With more democrats DC could be a state for example (Biden approves of that), abortian access could be written in law and student loans could be partially forgiven.
But unless you vote, we will never know.
What I know is that Biden DID something about student loans though. For example there is a new repayment plan that does not allow any interest and therefore allows to actually pay off your student loans.
But yeah, that's probably norhing acording to you.
Oh come on. They would do what they always fucking do. They'd find just enough no votes.
Then vote them out in the next primaries or unionize and strike. You have more power than you think.
I'm in Texas. Don't lie to me.
37.06% of voting age population turned out to the 2022 gubernatorial election if 4% more voters that would have voted democrat would have turned up, Texas would now have a democratic governor, but sure you don't have any power.
If you vote and enough others can get out there and vote you can change a state but if you just sit home and do nothing, nothing will happen.
Great. I already vote in every election and primary. In the primaries, party leadership heavily supports anti-choice anti-labor pro-nra candidates like Cuellar. When their efforts to shut progressives out at the primary level fail, they pull the rug out from under them by withholding funding like they did with Vallejo.
Don't lecture me for not being as happy as you are with a party that fights progressives and not Republicans.
Have you tried becoming a State Delegate and influencing the Party Chair? That's a way to influence who gets to decide about supporting whom, isn't it?
I love how centrists' answer to anyone pointing out the party's anti-progressive fuckery is "you're just not doing enough!"
I am definitely not a centrist. I am left and that in Europe but I have enough of people just always blaming others for not getting anything done. This is exactly what happens everywhere right now: People trying to convince voters that their votes don't matter and that will just lead to conservatives, fascists and far-right parties to win. Because they vote all the time.
Shit, if more people voted in the primaries Bernie would have had a stronger hand to negotiate policy if not having been the nominee either time.
But these fucksticks have the gall to wonder why people who aren't them are not voting the way they would for them.
Millennials and Gen Z could be dominating the primary process and yet underperform their share of the overall population, let alone the share they could easily take up in the democratic party if they didn't have to be dragged kicking and screaming to mark some squares on a ballot.
It will be so much worse under fascism. You might not be wild about Biden but if the alternative is fascism...when you say let it burn, that means a lot - and I mean a lot - of people will be harmed, most likely including you.
I think Biden is a fascist.
Ever heard of Hitler or Mussolini? You should read up on them and then consider your words again.
Mussolini is exactly who I was thinking of.
Oh boy! What kind of stuff did you take to think that Biden is comparable to a treacherous mass-murderer with a god complex?
Not getting student loan relief is a maintaining of the status quo, not a "hellish dictatorship". In fact, having the Congress and Courts strike down student loan relief is the POLAR OPPOSITE of a dictatorship.
So fuck the status quo, burn the college debt. I don't even have any, I was smart enough to get full scholarships.
A lot of it isn't what people are smart enough to do, lots of people get tricked into loans they can't pay back.
When our kid went to college, 3 separate schools wanted us taking out loans of $56,000 a year... $224,000 for a 4 year degree...
We told them "Yeah, no..." and enrolled him at a state school for $10K a year, where he had a $5k per year scholarship. I paid the remaining $5K cash.
But I could see other parents, after getting 3 schools telling them the same oddly specific number "Well, I guess that's what school costs!"
But people are still going to stalk my profile and down vote literally every comment I've ever posted regardless of what I agree with you about. Look for yourself if you don't believe me, you're free to view and vote just like those people.
I truly appreciate you being open to discussion, we just can't do it without others putting their uninvolved vote into what they're to scared to confront.
Attitudes like this honestly piss me off more than conservatives. You didn't get the options you wanted, so you decided to just give up, take your ball, and go home. Grow the hell up. We don't quit just because shit looks bleak, we keep on pushing until we can see the sun poking through the clouds, because that is the only way we will ever see it. If we give in to despair now, we will never get there. Even if it seems pointless, or like things aren't getting better, I can guarantee you it can always, ALWAYS be worse. And THAT is your reason to vote.
I'm sorry if that reason isn't as optimistic as you were hoping for, but that's the reality that we live in. And it will never get better if we just bitch about unfairness and bury our heads in the sand. If we want things to get better, we need to make them better. And that starts with you. Please, be better than this. I know you have it in you.
Things are getting worse even with voting though. Voting just makes them slightly less worse.
Then get everyone you know to vote, join a union, organize, strike in the worst case. Voting is not your only option.
BRB, off to bomb an oil pipeline
And for the people for whom that difference is life and death, your apathy is nothing short of collaboration in their murder.
People will die no matter what I choose. They’ll die from failed abortions in Texas or they’ll die from Israeli bombs in Gaza. The world is shit and has gotten worse despite me voting as often as I can.
And yet it will get even worse if you don't, and it will be your fault for not doing so.
When you have the choice between bad and not as bad, letting bad win puts the responsibility for that on your shoulders.
You don't get to call yourself an ally if you don't commit to the work of harm mitigation.
If you choose to not even do the minimum amount of work of solidarity, you are the white moderate Dr. King railed about in Birmingham.
All the frilly talk of supporting the cause with none of the action to back it up. Having to be bullied shamed and yelled at for the soul crushing Herculean task of standing in a line to fill a form out.
I do not care. You're bitching more than I am. Grow up and live your life free of internet nonsense like I am.
No, actually they're really not. You just don't like someone arguing against you.
Then why are you here?
Because they're sooooo edgy and cool. I don't understand why "I am actively hostile to everyone around me and want to prevent any positive change" is how someone wants to experience life, but there it is. They can't be free of any nonsense, nonsense is literally all they are.
To watch it burn
The fact that you'll be watching is why the people who'll be burning will remember your name as a collaborator in what is done to them.
Bruh I keep seeing your name pop up multiple times in this thread and you're always complaining about getting downvoted as if it matters or something.
You sound insufferable to be around and your comments read like someone who is compulsively online and just figured out how to base their personality around an edgelord DnD character.
Seriously in one comment someone asked why you're even here and you responded with "let it burn" or "watch it burn" or some variation of that. Straight up same energy as saying I brood in a dark corner of the tavern lol. Get that 2010 edgelord cringe out of here man. Take your ass to a gym and get out of that nihilistic funk
The world may have a gun pointed at its head but that don't mean you need to give it the ammo
I live in memes. I exist to piss you off. But you'll never realize this. You want to be angry. You need someone to be mad about. Have fun, I am.
Oh no, this isn't your average everyday cringe, this is... ADVANCED CRINGE!
lol, you sound like a tool bro, and not even a good one. More like one of those shitty allen wrenches that is tossed in the back of a drawer and is always too small or too large to fit anything.
Seriously bro, do yourself a favor, disconnect from the computer and hit the gym or find a hobby. This 2010 edgelord stuff is hilarious if you're a troll. But kinda sad if you're not trolling
I do not care what you believe.
Care so little you sent me two separate love messages like an unhinged ex 😘
As someone who has elderly in-laws, as someone who has a child, as someone who doesn’t want to inflict suffering on others regardless if they are a “shit lib” or an aging maga voter, I don’t see any utility in letting it “burn”. You don’t recover from this. If you want to see how that works, look at Russia. People are just resound to the fact that this is the best they could look forward to. After decades of government control, people just wilt and accept it as the new normal. It’s not fun. It’s not heroic. It’s just sad.
My family fled Russia in the 1980s prior to the collapse because my family saw bad getting worse. This could easily happen to the U.S. I don’t get how helping fuel this with apathy results in anything better.
As someone who's father was drafted into Vietnam against his will, someone who's never been able to have lasting relationships or children, been in debt for the education and career I was told was necessary to sacrifice my potential to have a family for to stop never ending war and economic crisis. We thought I got out because I didn't need a GI bill like my father.
Everyone thinks the US is so good. I'm not discounting want you've experience. But you don't know motown, or south side Chicago, or any or these things in implying. The same way I don't know your struggle.
Nothing you said has much relevance to what I said. I wasn’t talking about my struggle or yours for that matter. I was trying to offer an explanation of where things could be heading if we elect republicans. The result of which will impact the people who the need the most help. Not once did I mention the U.S. being good. Nor did I make any references to things being ok. But things can get significantly worse.
It’s fine if you don’t care. I just hope your level of empathy is not contagious because unfortunately, despite how awful Biden has been on many policies, it could get so much worse. And I have too many important people in my life to casually give up.
If I had the talent, I’d be running for local office to try and make some significant changes. Since I don’t, I will do my best to vote for the most left wing folks into office in the hopes that we can empower them to change from within.
I don't think we're understanding each other, it's neither of our faults. We're trying to talk about something deeply complex through a few text comments on the internet.
I appreciate you taking the time to try and convey what you feel the best you can. That is what I want. Unfortunately, lemmy is even worse about people disagreeing with you and down voting your entire profile. I now have people commenting on meme threads yelling at me about this. People here have too much time to be legal stalkers.
Another point of how far left drives away anyone who isn't a extreme as them. And you wonder why I've given up.
Literally 30 seconds and I'm downvoted. Really hurting fee fees today. Grow up.
Holy shit I can farm down votes by replying to myself because people are sooooo butthurt. Reddit 2.0 here we go!!!!
3 replies deep and I'm still getting down votes. Come on incels, your cults are stronger.
Points gun at dick
Shouts menacingly: I’ll fucken do it!
If only it was their OWN dick that these people were pointing a gun at...
I'm sorry, I thought this was America. Cannot not castrate myself fully a full auto?
In this case, it's not about either choice making your life better, it's about one choice actively making your life worse vs. Joe "nothing will fundamentally change" Biden.
Under Trump, the US will become a failed state:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/aug/30/trump-interview-jail-political-opponents-glenn-beck
https://thewire.in/world/america-is-on-the-brink-of-another-civil-war-this-one-fuelled-by-donald-trump
When did the Democrats become the status quo party? 🤔
I don't agree with Republicans. Its not one side vs the other. Grow up, embrace a more than 2 part state.
If you think any third party has a shot when the Democratic party and the Republican party control the debate schedule, you have no business calling anyone else a child.
The next Predident will be from one of the two major parties, so will the one after that... and after that.
Voting for a 3rd party who gets between 1 and 5% of the vote will not change that, any more than writing in a candidate will. All you will do is throw away your vote.