Is it only me, or do you find all those "I deleted Windows"-posts annoying too?
TL;DR: I wonder why we always have the same 2 posts as top posts of the day.
They appear a bit unnecessary and mildly annoying to me.
Do you think the same? Or do you like them, and can explain me why, so I can change my view?
Please don't just blindly downvote, writing this post took a lot of time. And if you feel the need to do it anyway, tell me why first.
Maybe I am the only person who thinks that.
I probably am, at least according to numbers.
Basically, I've got the feeling that every top post of the day for the last weeks is something like "I've freed myself from evil Windows' shackles and finally switched to Linux.", or "What distro do you recommend?".
Don't get me wrong.
I feel super happy for every newcomer discovering the wonderful world of Linux and FOSS.
I, just like most others here, always try to help them in finding their right distro and guiding them in their first steps.
We all have been there.
And I'm super proud of us all, as a community, that we happily embrace every new member. We definitely have to keep that behaviour, it's what connects us and makes us strong.
I just think we should redirect them a bit onto the specific communities.
Not by banning or censoring, just as friendly reminder, e.g. by a sticky post, comments like "Hey, check out !linux4noobs@lemmy.world" or something else.
It doesn't help much if there are the same threads every day, with people circlejerking on hating Windows and recommending Mint a hundred times, just like 100 people before did on the same thread.
I hate Windows too, but it feels like we're identifying and comparing ourselves with the bitter ex-partner we had a while ago. No, not being Windows shouldn't be the main reason Linux is great.
There are so many great posts and discussions, that are all going missing in this swamp of "Winblows bad, hehe".
We should focus on what makes our software great, and not what the "bad ex-partner" did wrong.
Same with newcomer posts.
I think if the posters get redirected to the correct sub, they will receive more help, since the people partaking in the community are there because they wanna see exactly that.
At the same time, I'm afraid this would undermine our openness and friendliness of this community, and result in being as shitty as Reddits' sub.
!Just as an anecdote, when I was a noob, I posted a question there, and, like 5 minutes later, I got a dozen of non-constructive, offensive comments. 10 minutes later, my post got removed. This was my first contact to the Linux world btw. Guess who switched back to Windows for another half year because of that?
We have to prevent this at any costs.
Anyway... !<
I really enjoy this community here and wanna keep it this great.
I just wanted to ask you, what you think about those everyday-top-posts.
If you like them, please try to change my mind and explain me why :)
Edit/ Additional stuff/ Learnings:
- I don't hate those "I switched to Linux"-posts, just to clarify. They're fine for me, they just feel like white noise. But I've read many times in this thread that a lot of people enjoy those posts. If that's the case, I'm totally fine! :)
- I think putting those posts in a weekly sticky thread could be worth an idea? Then everyone could describe their experience of this week of switching from one distro to another, e.g. "My first week of Gentoo" or something like this. Would be an interesting read for everyone.
- I also believe those "Fuck Windows"-posts can be kind of therapeutic for some people, since Windows became really shitty and annoying in the last years. And when you feel the relieve from finally getting rid of it, you tell that everyone. Understandable.
- Splitting the community isn't the best idea too. We can always learn from each other and I like the diversity of this community.
- Thank you for your kind and constructive answers! ✌️
Personally, as a noob myself, I enjoy reading about others' experiece when they switch. No idea why. Just fun to read usually.
For me too, it gives me an encouraging feeling like; hey, i'm not the only one who ran into this or that issue, or who switched to linux because of this or that reason. And it's nice to know that i'm here with others who are also quite new. It would feel very daunting to be here and know that all members here have been 'linuxing' for decades and i would just lurk then.
I always read those posts that OP mentions. If you don't like them, just skip them? I've been with other lists for many years and newbies were always welcome. I liked answering their questions, even those i heard a 100 times before, and if i didn't feel like it some days, i could always skip them and know that others would have answers too.
I don't mind them any more than I mind a bunch of other dumb posts that people feel compelled to share for reasons I don't understand.
And a lot of them do seem earnest, like they're showing off a macaroni picture they're super proud of.
If my adult roommate came home and showed me a macaroni picture they're super proud of, I probably wouldn't be personally impressed, but I would be happy for them that they've found something they like and are proud of.
It is cool with me if they think switching to Linux is a feather in their cap.
Post better content to the community that is more interesting. The problem isn't these posts, it's the lack of other engaging discussions.
I will install Windows and remove it again just to annoy you.
Do that and keep my updated ✌️
5 minutes later:
What having issues looks like:
Idk, I try to be there to cheer on people that make the switch and post about it.
I get that the same type of thread several times a week is annoying. However, sometimes I think there is stuff to learn/remember about people switching over now, since there are things I would have long forgotten/gotten used to since initially switching 8-ish years ago, the new user experience is valuable and important to get feedback to help more people transition better.
As someone who recently made the switch (without posting about it woohoo!), I've found more information across the clone posts than in any one thread, I second the megathread idea mentioned above.
I've made a few comments regarding distros/switching on many of the aforementioned posts and I would happily dig them up and repost them as a comment on a megathread, on the slim chance my experience helps smooth out the entry for others.
Not at all. You seem to think there's a more appropriate forum for people to join the Linux community, and introduces. Where is that? And how do new Linux users find it? Knowing nothing about Linux distros, where should they ask about distros? Distrowatch catalogs 274 distributions - how do newbies navigate those?
I do think having a "which distro" stickie or sidebar would be handy, but I don't at all mind the "I ditched Windows" posts. It beats random venting, ranting, and flame wars.
No I don't mind them. I am a linux noob myself and these kinds of posts are what helped me decide to switch.
While we're complaining, you know what I don't like? Completely incomprehensible posts about some super specific subsystem. "fdplq updated to 0.5.pi.007.69!" Wow, that will change my life the next time I boot up my computer to read some Lemmy and play a game for an hour or two.
But they are all part of the linux community. I'm not gonna say the way I use linux is any better or worse than anyone else.
And fortunately, nobody is forcing us to click on those posts we don't care about.
I deleted windows btw, and I'm very happy about it.
I used arch to delete windows.
The urge to comment "I use Arch btw" is overwhelming
waits
waits
in a compulsive panic btw!
But OP did it first, and now he's already few steps ahead in the OS game, and prefers to let everyone know that he was there first. So stop these posts you guys.
Thing is, I don't know what else you'd really post here. Linux is an OS (don't get pedantic with me), there's only so much to talk about other than using it for the first time or getting recommendations on distros/desktop environments/apps/hardware/etc. There's always something going on with Linux, but most of it is specific to one distro/desktop environment so people will probably go to forums for those specific things to discuss them.
Also, yeah he threads are pretty tired for people who have been here even for just a few months, but for the people switching over, it's all brand new. They want to talk about their experience and I can't really blame them. Maybe there should be megathread as suggested elsewhere.
What would you like to see posted? What could give this community more of a direction?
What i really would love are tips and tricks. I remember another community that started doing that, but after a few times they stopped. Very frustrating, because it was quite interesting to read.
I also like all kinds of discussions about why one chooses this or that terminal, or why they choose flatpak over certain repositories. Discussions about what went wrong and how they solved it (because then you learn where you need to look for issues and what people need to know from you to be able to help out).
Experiences from newbies are nice too; what distro did they choose and did they run into issues.
Sharing interesting websites would be nice as well.
Just some thoughts.
Yeah, I don't mind. Everyone has a survivor story.
Although it is interesting isn't it... That Linux usage is still seen in opposition to the horrors of windows. I mean, few come here talking about adopting in spite of having a great time with windows, or even without mentioning it at all.
I hope that one day it isn't seen as an alternative to but as a thing in its own right.
Well kinda obvious, if you like windows you won't bother to look up other systems and hardly will you switch off of it. And as long as windows will come preinstalled in people's PC Linux will always be seen as the rebel choice.
Last sentence makes no sense tbh, the only way we can't be the alternative to windoes is by not being an operating system.
Windoes!
I just meant that Linux, even in these communities is posited as something you try after windows rather than go to first.
Look, I know there's a certain romantic notion that Linux is "the rebel choice", but the truth is that it is the normcore backbone of the internet and the go to OS of a ton of academic ecologies.
So yeah, kinda obvious, when you think about it.
Maybe they are, but this is the way the medium works - you don't get to control what people post (unless you are mod). Scroll past and move on.
I often do like these posts, because it usually shows their past suffering, and the new freedom they enjoy. It is also an opportunity to share the common community feeling with them.
After all, to me many years ago when I saw Linux booting for the very first time (no GUI, just lots of text from the kernel) that was one thing about Linux that I liked : names of human beings visible. If you look at software by Microsoft or Apple on computer installations you will normally see zero names, it is all very formal.
Social interaction between Linux users, starting with solving Linux questions, has been there for years in forums. I like seeing people help other people and move forward together.
And what sub would you suggest ?
This is what I enjoy most about the Linux experience, like you say it is a very human experience that everyone likes to share.
When is the last time you had a noob online or anywhere tell you they booted up their system with a fresh new install of a new to them OS that they found called Microsoft Windows or Mac OS
To me, and I'm just a novice that is capable of knowing enough to destroy my system, any time I hear or read someone new who ditched a commercial OS to become a Linux user is an amazing accomplishment. It means the person who did so went out of their way to use something they had to work for, not with money but with knowledge, experience and trial and error.
Every time I hear that story, it makes me feel good and hopeful for humanity because it's one more person who broke away from an all powerful corporate master.
I'll never get tired of hearing these stories or seeing these posts.
Well said, and a nice read. 👍
Thinking about this I think that a lot of consumers who buy their new laptops will have ChromeOS, Microsoft Windows or Apple Mac OS pre-installed, and when they have problems with it, most of them might go back to the shop to get help, or even buy just another new computer. Another good feature of Linux is that it does not necessarily force you into hardware upgrades every few years, and it can even run on all kind of devices., making Linux flexible and sustainable.
This was a solved problem on other sites via wikis and weekly threads. There's no value in another "what distro should I use?" post. It's great that people want to contribute, but there should be a more centralized resource we can refer people to where people can focus this energy.
As for the Windows threads, they've been a staple of every Linux-focused community for as long as I've been browsing them. I guess if it makes people feel better then I suppose that's enough of a reason to keep them around.
Thanks for putting the TL;DR at the top instead of at the bottom where I'll never see it because I already decided not to read
Today I typed in sudo to see if I still felt anything and there were no updates to any repositories. Sometimes you stare into the void long enough to play nethack
https://hackertyper.net/ if you want to feel cool again.
This is a Linux community, so of course people will be moving away from other operating systems and installing Linux. I don't see why everyone that does it needs to post about it. It's like the people that make a big deal about leaving a party instead of just leaving.
It's annoying. Maybe there should be a separate "SwitchedToLinux" community for these posts.
Every single story saturates the perception-pool a bit more. The more normal it appears, the more people will realize that windows isn't all-present anymore, and that it's not a weird thing to do to try Linux.
To me, that would be more like "I stopped eating junk" posts. The world needs more of those.
That is how I see it, at least.
Completely agree, and well said
Sure, I think the posts could be good for that, but they could go in a separate community specifically for those posts. It would be nice for this community to be for Linux news and discussions rather than "Windows bad, Linux good" for every post.
Would a non-linux user visit any such sub-community though? Perhaps Linux news and discussions would be better off in a sub-community? Actual users are more sensible to such distinctions. Many potential new users have a hard time choosing a distro already. Adding yet another choice might be detrimental to the cause.
They all get a downvote from me.
I thought about it too, but I personally want to use the downvote function only to signal a low-effort or low-worth post, not my opinion or dislike.
Remember, it's supposed as filter, not opinion system.
So while I personally don't find much liking in some posts in general, there has always been a person behind it that invested time into writing that particular comment or post.
To be fair though, is announcing you just removed windows not a totally low effort post?
Depends. If it's just one sentence, it won't add any value or stuff to discuss.
But if it's an experience report it can always be interesting to read and adds value.
This world, and this community, need more people like you. You strike me as a king person that has no issue speaking his/her mind. And I learned from you how to better use those uovote/down vote buttons. Thank you, for real.
As a recent convert, I completely love the idea of "One week of Linux" posts or reserving switch over stories to weekly posts or something. FOSS Fridays?
How about we make a dedicated community for "I deleted Windows" posts?
!switch_to_linux@lemmy.ml
Thanks for the suggestion
It feels like a common and repetitive theme that doesn't bring much discussion to the table. I might be an old grumpy fart, and I probably would've done the same posts back in 1997 when I left Windows NT 4.0 in the rear view mirror.
I'd much prefer to keep the discussion on Linux and not other operating systems. I enjoy AmigaOS and MorphOS as well, but I can't recall anyone every comparing those to Windows on the forums.
I find them mildly annoying, but generally tune them out.
The offensive responses, are much worse. Linux users can VERY much be a "boys club" and treat newcomers as lower life forms.
The issue is if you tune them out what's left? It's most of the content here.
Hell just the other day there was a "what new tech thing have you done this year?" And 95% of the responses were just some variation of "Installed Mint/PopOS!/Endeavour and started using Firefox."
Like it's great that you're making the transition, but I was hoping to hear what new self hosting service people got working on their home server, some new residential network installs for security platforms, etc.
Not just "I changed browsers."
Check out the self hosting community.
I mean, the OP linked to the Linux beginners forum in their comment, so it can't be that much of a boys club.
Personally, I'm not interested in the type of posts you mention. However, I don't mind it. In general I think it's great to tell the world if you ditch Windows for Linux, because it shows other (Windows) users that they can do it, too.
Though I have to agree that for a dedicated Linux community, it doesn't add too much value. If I think a post is a bad fit for the community, I vote it down.
I don't mind them. I like to hear what drove people away from Windows and into Linux' loving embrace. I'm still pretty new myself, so grain of salt I suppose.
If it is using systemd you are half way there
@Father_Redbeard @Guenther_Amanita
I feel the same way. Most of the feedback on your post seems to be from newbies who like it, so maybe we should start a new community for us advanced folks instead of referring everyone to !linux4noobs@lemmy.world.
Dividing the community is probably not the best thing to do right now... There's also the intermediate power user, with specific question in regard of grub or how to update the kernel issues.
The kind of question that are easy for advanced folk but can be a big ? for intermediate people.
Do we also start a new community for them?
IMO that's a bad idea...
Not yet. I'm sure I'll get there eventually, but for now I'm enjoying watching people make their own choices for OS.
I really like them, along with all the other repetitive types of posts people make. For people who have been using Linux awhile, or have been a part of this community (or any Linux community really) they get a bit old, sure, but each new post is an opportunity for other new Linux users to learn and contribute.
I think sequestering discussion like this into nicely planned neat boxes like sticky threads or weekly discussions is harmful in the long term. While it may keep the posts in this community "clean" I believe it will reduce interest and turn away fresh blood.
I think those of us who have been using Linux awhile should embrace these posts and view them as opportunities to mentor, and as opportunities to continue to stoke the fires of interest in Linux.
I don't read them, but it's like advertising to get the Linux train rolling. I'm pretty sure those posts have significantly contributed to a lot of people giving Linux a try.
I also like hearing good news about Linux. With how negative social media can be hearing some good news, especially about something I like is just a generally nice change of pace.
I've said this sentiment before, but I'll repeat it here.
If you're a pro uber-1337 Gamer, you probably have over 1TiB of storage available. Keeping 64 or even 100GiB of space free for a Windows install isn't really going to break the bank. IMO it's worth keeping a Windows 10 install around just in case you need to use something that only runs on Windows, or some game really doesn't agree with Linux. Nuking a Windows install feels a bit reckless, especially considering the pain of installing it and getting licenses set up.
Part of me worries that these posts are making it seem that deleting your Windows install is some kind of "rite of passage" people have to go through, even though I bet many devout Linux users here still have a Windows install "just in case".
I would like to see a sticky "shill your distro" and/or "guide to recommended distros for a new user" thread. Most people making those threads are usually fine with something like Mint, Ubuntu, Pop or Fedora, and replies sometimes get into technical debate or people shilling their favorite distro (which would be better served in a dedicated thread).
However, we're only a small community here, so most activity is good activity, as long as we don't repeat the exact same posts over and over.
I keep a Windows VM in my server for when I have to update some of my accessories (because Logitech won't do anything for Linux, but their keyboards and mice are so awesome for work that I can't think of any potential replacement), but I would never keep a Windows install one any of my desktops or laptops. In this, I do consider Windows a waste of space, even if it was only 1Gig.
Everyone knows the real rite of passage is not just deleting Windows, but destroying the Linux install.
Bonus points if it's both.
It's funny how sometimes people try to argue or debate when I say I use Windows to run Ableton or something, like I'm trying to use Windows and making up excuses. My gaming + media creation desktop is a stripped down Windows install cause it just works for that. I also run Linux on everything else and have been a mixed environment sysadmin for like 15 years. Windows Enterprise and massgravel, drivers, Chris Titus Tech's tool, usable Winblows install in under an hour with active time maybe 20-30 minutes.
It's a phase. I understand the annoyance, but the community isn't big enough to create a dedicated community for "I deleted windows" posts. It comes down to how many people we have in each camp: actual linux users, newly transitioned users, prospective lurkers. Given how many people came to lemmy for non-linux reasons, I assume that last camp currently outweights the rest.
I don't remember seeing a single one, so they're probably not annoying me.
Exaggerated complaint posts about non problems there are way to many, though.
I don't really mind either way whether these posts are allowed to remain or should be culled.
If you keep them around, they will just keep shitting up the feed. The overall browsing quality of the community goes down, hindering the user experience. I don't think it's uncontroversial to say these posts have next to no value; they're essentially equivalent to birthday notifications or "I voted" stickers. Like... congrats! You and everyone else! Now what? Where's the discussion here?
On the other hand, I do want to think thrice about controlling this with moderation. All too often on Reddit I've see the trope of a sub that appears to be crawling, and you get the idea to join in with an enthusiastic post, only to get removedsmacked by automod because you posted this on the wrong day of the week, or this post type is outright banned because the community is sick of seeing it. It's sensible, yes. But ugh, what a demoralizing filter for newcomers. Overly curated subs/communities are not public forums, they are increasingly impenetrable cliques. That may not necessarily be a bad thing if we think the tradeoff is worth it. But we have to keep in mind what we become when we make that trade.
The one thing I will say willl absolutely not help anything at all is making a designated containment community for this specific kind of post. The whole complaint here is rooted in there being no discussion value for these types of posts. You think a community comprised entirely of those would be a community anyone would want to post in? It'd largely be the Lemmy equivalent of a donotreply@ email address. A dumping ground where unwanted posts go to die. And I don't know about anyone else, but somehow I find being directed to a designated dead-end forum by mods is an even bigger slap to the face than simply having my post removed.
Yeah. I deleted windows, too.
3+ years ago and I didn't make a post about it.
I like them as long as they're describing their experience and/or motivation behind the step.
What I don't like is posts that are simply bashing on Windows (because apparently it's cool?) and praising Linux like it's some sort of silver bullet. Share your negative experiences and describe hoops and workarounds you had to jump through to make Linux work for you. Or describe why it didn't work out for you and why you're back to Windows (and then, dear commenters, don't flame the guy).
Full agreement with you here. Quality over quantity is important and if we want to instill a "Linux community" mindset/ettiquite, it's about learning, making bug reports and maybe just a bit of showing off.
So w.r.t. Windows -> Linux migration posts, I hope we ask the people that post about their experience to go in detail in the problems they ran into, what software works or didn't work, what parts they liked, and what parts they might miss from Windows. A generic "Windows bad and spies on you, Linux good and free!" post lacks the detail that I think more people would appreciate and bring real value to the community.
I guess a sticky post titled « ditching windows, looking to find my way on Linux » would help and new posts about doing that should be forbidden in the community rules/redirected to the sticky post 😇
But it’s also important to welcome properly newcomers.
Can't have linux without a hint of elitism.
"Im much better than all my other friends who are still using Windows ... yuck"
Eh, elitism seems to float around all tech communities. PCMasterRace, C, CLI, Apple, Tesla/cars, Snap-On, heck even bidets have elitist advocates. Any time there are multiple way to do something, someone will be snooty about it.
Learned something new today, had no idea.
They are top posts for a reason. It's because people enjoy them. Everyone has the choice to ignore them.
Nah it's cool.
maybe a different structure could work where main linux community is for noobs and we have some kind of seasoned linux community
Yeah.. It's socially way easier to undergo the process of
Than to undergo the process of
In a sense, making /c/linux the general landing zone for Linux, with a lot of noob and unfocused posts seems like a good idea to me, with links to more-specific Linux communities shared in the side bar as the community grows.
I don't mind them. If this type of social media had existed when I first installed Linux 24 years ago, I would have probably done the same thing.
No
I think explaining why you think so would be better than just saying "No" and not elaborating further.
Could you maybe please tell me your stance on that in more detail, in case nobody else already explained it better?
Personally, I'm finding all of these complaining posts to be far more irritating.
It's a valid point for sure.
But I also think "complaining" is a great thing everybody should make use of if one feels like something is going the wrong way.
A community is made out of many people, and everybody should have a right to decide the direction.
Often, from those "complaints", are coming good and innovative ideas and betterments.
If no one makes constructive criticism, nothing will get better.
But the constant criticism of these new users posting in this community makes for a pretty unwelcoming community. If we want Linux's market share to grow and become more relevant to the average user, and we really should, then we need to be a welcoming community that encourages new users. Not a community that is hostile to new users. The good news is that it seems the majority of users here aren't complaining. But the complaint posts have been increasing it seems, and I'd personally like to see that stop.
Instead of complaining, if you don't like a post downvote and move on.
I got lucky, I converted from the ol' shitheap that reddit became at the time of the protests.
This was in the before-times when folks here were more excited about helping people see the FOSS light than they were complaining about people searching for the FOSS light (repeatedly).
I never needed to make a post of my own, there were a good few getting around and a LOT of helpful/insightful/educational comments with a derth of information and sources provided for further investigation.
Once again (as previously in this comment section), I vote megathread.
No
I don't mind. I understand the enthusiasm since i switched recently (again) too.
As for windows; i think one of the main reasons people switch has to do with how bad windows has become. It's bloated, it feels like everything is spied on, and in 11 they add AI and not to be helpful to their customers. So, a lot of people will say: hey, i switched to linux and finally, i'm rid of that evil windows. Many people might not know that much about linux just yet, so they are maybe - i'm speculating here - moving away from something unpleasant, rather than switching to linux because of the many advantages.
As for the linux 4 noobs community, i joined but it feels pretty dead and so, i ask my noob questions (apart from trying to do my own research) here, rather than over there. Are you implying that noobs are not really welcome to ask their questions here? It would be fine with me if the noob community was filled with people who are enthusiastically asking questions, but the most recent posts are a month old, so not very inviting.
Yeah, I'd rather have this be the unfocused/general/noob/"everything linux" community, and have links in the sidebar to more focused communities that might want to filter out some noise.
oh yeah, it's been annoying me, too. I haven't subscribed to read countless blog posts of people who set off on the exceptionally unique journey of installing Ubuntu and liking it more than Windows.
I really don't get why anyone would be annoyed about this specifically when recurring topics and posts are just pretty common.. about litterally anything. I find it even more weird since it's about people ditching windows (I mean how many topics and posts hating on windows, praising Linux, suggesting Linux, and whatever else...just lots and lots, and somehow people are fine with that, so why would it be any different here ?)
Beside, people just want to share things, regardless if others did exactly the same an hour or a decade ago. Why care when it's just so easy to move on to something you'd be more interested in ?
One thing I do find tiresome more than anything within the Linux community though is talks about noobs like they are some cringe childs being boring and acting childishly...everyone have been noobs seriously, even you mentioned toxicity and the lack of openness/friendliness towards noobs if we ostracized them..yet you are suggesting it anyway. I get noobs aren't always fun but come on ! And about newcommer posts...noobs will seek help wherever they can seek it, having another place to help them is not going to change that, so we might just as well help them and redirect them to helping sites anyway.
I think you misunderstood my post.
I don't have anything against newcomers - quite the opposite. I try help them a lot and support them as much as I possibly can, since I got the same help a few years ago.
The only thing I criticize is the lack of organisation. There's a huge flood of those two types of posts, and other content just drowns in them.
Nah it's not what I meant, I think I just wasn't clear (I am no native speaker, might be that or it just came out wrong) I didn't mean to say you yourself have some ill will toward newcomers, you even spoke about your bad experience as one and how you don't want this to happend to others. I was generalising about the ambiant toxicity you can sometimes find on most platforms and that's what tires me more than simply noobs enjoying their discoveries or seeking a helping hand, sometimes even people with good intent get condescending for no reason and I find it dumb, but I wasn't aiming at you at all. May be you took it this way because I abruptly came back to you in almost the same sentence.
I only meant that I get the impression people sometimes (on diverse sites, not just lemmy) get burned over noobs, and start noticing them more often than they sould, starting to wish for more peace, or more intersting stuff on their feeds and what not. Wich, as understandable as it may be, is not very welcoming (and not too hard to overcome). Or may be it's just that sometimes people have weird takes about newcomers and I just mix it all up and get the wrong overall impression, cannot say.
But going back to you, you are mentionning "flood of those two types of posts, and other content just drowns in them" and that's what I find odd (if you are talking about only Linux@lemmy.ml specifically), because yeah there are a good number of them...but not so many (at least to me) that you can't just ignore them without paying no mind to it. And again, may be it just doesn't show up us much on my end for some strange reason, but I checked to be sure, and still can't find that much to agree. Even the "the lack of organisation" is a strange way to put it since there are broad topics to have on just Linux and posts usually talk about diverse stuff (security, softwares, news, distros, experiences, unixporn...) besides the fact some recurring stuff always come back since people have their favourites topics (favourite distros, dick contest between this and that, "what do you prefer", and on and on).
And in the end, some noobs will just end up talking or asking about stuff everywhere they can, down to the worst places up to the best, only because they simply will go to places they find or know. And I don't think isolating them, or making another space for them will ever change that, and it might just send the wrong message. To me, unless there is a truly dire need for another noob space to give them better help (wich I really can't assess here), I think the best way to deal with it and stay welcoming is by just paying no mind when you don't feel like it and just go to them when you want to. Not implying that's your case but, I know some people don't know when to let go, but we all can't be patient or interested in things all the time, may be that's why I think people get burned sometimes. Reminds me that joke about the best way to get help on linux : you simply say «Linux is so bad I can't do this» anywhere and Linux people won't let it slide and give you the best help right away.
There's a huge middle ground between constant reposts about the same topic and hostility to new users. Megathreads have often been the solution to that particular problem. I don't know if Lemmy has a merge functionality, though. It seems like the mod tools are kind of limited.
I kinda wish there was a meaningful separator in lemmy, like '.', that could be used to make subforums.
Like, 'linux' would see everything from 'linux.tech', 'linux.noobs', etc.
Then make "Linux" the landing zone, and have links to subforums in the sidebar. Maybe even restrict posting to subforums.
People could subscribe to Linux as a whole and block specific subtopics, or subscribe only to certain subtopics.
But yeah, Mod tools would be good.
It's not only you. I suppose we need a separate community, linux-newbie or something like this, for such posts and questions about choosing a distro.
Or, keep "linux", the more general name, as welcoming as possible, and have "linuxusers" for chat driven by people who are familiar with it as a daily driver.
Positivity is good. I would rather see 100 positive posts than one negative one, even if there's a lot of redundancy. It helps encourage others to switch to Linux, which is good.
Perhaps a pinned, weekly post? It's not like federated sites have enough traction yet to make a weekly thread full of buried posts, so it should work in the meantime
Maybe we can just fire up a new community specifically for that - /c/linuxevangelists or /c/linuxplunge /c/linuxswitch or something conceptually similar, and then direct posts of that nature to that community.
Don’t get me wrong, I like seeing more people get into it, but I’ve always thought of /c/linux and adjacent/similar communities as community technical support, so I just tend to ignore or hide “wooo I switched to linux” posts.
I think of 'Linux' as more general, unfiltered, anything-linux. But, maybe we should make a 'linuxdailydriver' or something.
Really, I think it's a missing feature in Lemmy.
Have a meaningful separator, and allow subcommunities, where all posts are included in the larger community unless explicitly filtered out by the user. Also mods could configure that the more general one doesn't receive posts, and you have to select a subcommunity when posting.
So, subscribe to linux and you automatically see all subcommunities (including ones created after you subscribed to linux) linux.tech, linux.support, linux.newusers, etc. ..but not those you've filtered out.
Holy resurrected thread, Batman!
Holy shit, you are so right. I must have been sorting by something whack that put this near the top.
I like to hear other peoples experiences
Maybe it bothers you more because your Lemmy feed is not as well populated with interesting posts as you would hope?
I do wish people would check the post history here before asking "what distro should I use." Or search the web for "how to pick a Linux distro in 2024" there are no shortage of those, although to be fair to them, you are a lot more likely nowadays to find nothing but AI-generated bullshit.
Like this commenter here mentions, there are pinned posts saying "share the story of how you met your distro." I would love it if moderators could take posts and turn them into comments on pinned posts like "share. But we don't have that as far as I know, so what can you do but contribute a patch to the Lemmy software maintainers, or else just deal with the noise.
It's nice to get some idea of how many people are switching over, it seems to have had an uptick recently, 3 people I know in real life have tried using Linux as their daily driver in the past few months who hadn't previously
For me I'd rather people post something over nothing even if it's the same post to us it's clearly something the poster felt was important to them.
I like seeing the posts of people finding comfort with their new linux installs even tho they might appear a couple of times.
Linux is still considered a niche so the most likelihood of the newer folk appearing is higher then the more experienced ones. Also I wasn't always experienced and if it wasn't for newbie friendly content I wouldn't be here helping other people as well.
After all, information doesn't spawn out of thin air, it requires someone to carry and distribute it so that other people become also educated in those ways.
Which is way I find weird finding some people say "people are dumb they should do x, y or z cause its better" but then they don't provide any information and expect others to also know what they already know/have learned recently.
In conclusion, sharing is caring and I don't mind people sharing their experiences which also helps others on the same situation.
Perhaps we can make a new community here: c/ditchedWindows, for example.
Personally, i would prefer it if the linux 4 noobs community would be brought back to life, or if we have dedicated threads here where we can discuss newbie stuff.
If we would go the route of threads, some helpful people who have a lot of experience could decide to help out and others could just skip the thread.
And if people would want a new community, i would hope that it is not called something like 'ditched windows', because that sounds like a recipe to make it a community to complain about windows. For me as newbie, i'm looking for 2 things; info and howto's and suggestions about everything linux, and the knowledge that there are others who are also new and ask things that would be interesting for me as well.
Responding with a meta level tangent comment, but I can't help feeling that when I read these type of comments that it's just Microsoft astroturfing, trying to shape the narrative away from migration to Linux.
Especially when you see those "I still can't get my favorite single game that uses anti-cheat tech or strange peripheral to work with Linux, so Linux sucks for all gaming" posts.
Just kind of seems like there's this stealthy narrative warfare going on.
Dang it, you got me!
Just kidding 🙃
I get why you think about that. I sometimes enjoy thinking about "conspiracies" like those too.
Especially with the rise of LLMs and bots, it doesn't sound unrealistic tbh.
On the other hand, I don't believe MS does care about us at all, or at least that much.
Years ago, yes. But they're really good at their "Embrace, extend and extinguish" practice. They "love" Linux now, don't forget that. Home users leaving Windows isn't that big of a problem for them, as long as we continue using their services, like Edge, Outlook and Teams.
The MS ecosystem also dominates the business world and won't get replaced anytime soon, and this field is where the paying customers are.
About the fake-accounts: if I'm not certain if I am reading a troll post, checking the profile helps.
For example, I'm a mod of some communities, have a very long and extensive post- and comment history, and behave like a human would (which basically means I'm very dumb sometimes 🌝).
So, the chances of me being a troll from Microsoft is there, but slim.
I have to admit: I was the same as the example from you in my beginning times.
Here's my story if you wanna read it:
I want to be the same as this mentor, and I think just offering frustrated noobs a helping hand and open ear will help a lot.
Being unconventionally/ unfittingly friendly can open many doors! They often need some type of vent, and if it helps them feeling better, great! Post like those usually don't get much attention anyway, so I think the risk of them turning someone else off Linux is not that high.
Truthfully, your response was WAY too weirdly (no disrespect meant) verbose to reply to (apologies), but I did want to reply to this one point, that I've quoted above.
I truly don't think it's a ""conspiracy"", I think that really happens today.
I think there is a stealthy warfare of the management of the narrative that goes on between corporations and regular people/customers, especially when it comes to protecting their businesses, their profits, and their products. Astroturfing, etc.
I don't believe it's 'tinfoil hat time' (my phrasing, not yours) to express such a thing. I think its just acknowledging that such a thing truly exists, because any corporation would be foolish not to take advantage of the tools available to them to maximize their success/profits (unfortunately, even if it trashes the country).
Tragedy of the Commons.
Most of those posts are fake too, just karma farming.
Is that even a thing on lemmy? Just start up your own instance and award yourself infinite karma
Honestly, I think it's even overblown as a thing on reddit, I feel like virtually no one who is over fifteen and using reddit recreationally cares about karma. I've heard it presented like people are out there karma-farming because they feel a sense of pride in having a high number and I kind of think that's an invented caricature to get mad at. I'm skeptical that anyone actually cares.
Obviously there are people and businesses/institutions who use reddit for promotion and narrative shifting and there are bot accounts to be sold to those institutions, and all of them definitely care about karma, but I think that's something different (and more harmful).
In the present discussion, the people posting want to share that they're trying something new. I don't open these posts myself but I think that's fine. It's very unlikely there's some hidden motive here. As someone who cares about free software and the linux ecosystem, I would hope that the community is receptive and encourages newcomers to participate.
I do understand how OP could be annoyed at seeing a lot of these in his feed, but I think the solution is to get them off his feed, just block the community. Letting newbies have their moment is more likely to grow the community.
Lol lemmy has no karma
If your assumption is true, then I feel really sorry for those posters, really.
Getting many upvotes should only be a sign of "This post is relevant for many people", not "Many like it".
The up- and downvote system is supposed to be a filter, not a like- or opinion system.
And, even if account karma really exists, then it still doesn't mean anything.
I also had many posts/ comments that got negative votes, and I would never have thought about deleting them, except if I accidentally hurt someone with them and someone notified me of that.
Otherwise, I stand to my opinion and/ or use the edit function to add my changed stance.
You think a post or comment should be higher up, because it's useful or OP put a lot of work into writing it? Upvote.
Post has no relevance (for no one, not only you) and isn't worth seeing? Downvote.
I constantly upvote stuff I don't even care about or that I see controversial, just because OP took a lot of time.
At the same time, comments like "This!" and other Reddit-ish comments and post are instantly downvoted because they neither promote discussion nor relevance.
Uff, where to start? I'm slit 50/50 on your view. I think you're absolutely right that the best option would be a sticky saying something along the lines of "welcome to a new and better life of freedom. We're here to help you. Please start by reading (whatever sticky post to make them feel welcome and give them a jump start), and we look forward to evolving towards full cyber freedom together".
And I agree that, some times, we can be a bit vexing to newcomers. Having said that, most, if not all of us, have been that newcomer all too happy to notify everyone that "I've finally gotten free of the poisonous claws of the devil, Microshot". So, I also understand why people would do that. I was there once, and was so happy I switched, I wanted to put an ad on Cable TV and every newspaper and magazine in the world for every creature to know.
After a while, I still blast windows every now and then, but inly to die-hand windows advocates.
Having said that, the sticky is just one of many potential options to curb these posts, but they will never cease to happen. As I said, the feeling is so awesome that lots of us just want to scream it to the top of our lungs.
Is it a bit annoying to see that every time you come in here there are 10 new posts with the exact same thing? Yes, sometimes it is. But it's also true that I enjoy it when I see another person finally managing to open their eyes and risk having to learn something new, different to the only thing they've know probably for years or even decades. This helps put Gnu-Linux on the map of developers, which in turn can attract more people, so, full-circle benefit.
I can't think of any options right now, but when I feel a bit annoyed by it, I just move on and keep browsing for what actually interests me at the moment. Other times, I may actually upvote, reply while congratulating and letting them know we're here to help navigate these new waters, and share a few tutorials, options and all that good stuff.
At the end of the day I think it all boils down to each of our moods the moment we see those. My mood towards them is pretty "bipolar", to say the least, lol.
Something you haven't touched on that is a big part of it too is sometimes users just want to discuss. I've found that mega threads, while kind, are generally useless for that.
The user is making the post because this is roughly their first discussion about distros and just reading through the other 15 posts with responses isn't the same as your post and your questions being responded to, even if they are pretty much the same.
That ends up being the issue. The megathread doesn't get consistent replies and so it feels like asking your questions into a void, making a comment on a different existing thread about the same thing feels like hijacking, and so we're left with making a new post about their journey and questions.
Yes.
These posts are the "I voted for peace" decorative lapel button of the '60s and '70s. These posts were the leading edge in the '90s and a little of the '00s.
Now they're tiresome. It's like people who've come late to the party and want their fanfare; people who came last in the race and proclaim themselves the leaders. The race is over, the banners are down, the spotlight's off and the newsmedia's gone home. No need to proclaim victory, nor virtue-signal inclusion in a group that isn't exclusive.
I don’t personally get anything from this threads. It’s kinda self congratulatory. I guess I understand being excited about it though
I feel like limiting or discouraging them would really hurt adoption.
Many times people share their use cases.
If someone with similar use cases finds out "wait, it us possible for me yo use Linux?" they could become tomorrow's post.
The F Windows posts are great and can be very therapeutic. But guaranteed those users haven’t issued a command that accidentally wipes out their entire drive accidentally. Or they haven’t had their Window Manager just up and decide it doesn’t feel like working anymore because of an update.
I work with Linux a lot simply because of my 3D printers and I love it. But being on a community driven edge can be a nightmare sometimes when something updates and you’ve got to track down the problem. For me that’s half the fun since I usually get to help someone else out with the same issue.
Really?
Yeah, I can see the horde of Mint, PopOS, and a Ubuntu users running towards that command line prompt. /s
I meant it more as an inexperienced Linux user having to fix something and inadvertently causing havoc more so than drive wiping.
If you send the noobs to a noob specific community with other noobs, then you pass the chance to share some of your knowledge that may save the noob from doing some silly stuff because of the bad habits he picked up while using Windows.
I think that it may be slightly annoying and repetitive, but it is important to give noobs a nudge in the right direction.
You can always ignore the posts, or contribute with fresh content. 😉
Your arguments make sense, thanks for your input :)
See my post from yesterday about Distrobox. Was one of the top 3 posts of the day and also took a lot of time :)
I'm working on phasing out windows in my office as much as I can entirely because of the end of win10 and the dumb requirements of windows 11. I'm still running it on my main home PC though because I'm insanely busy and like to game for like 5-10 hours a week and and want to spend zero hours getting games to run. If I buy a game on steam and it doesn't work I instantly I refund it even if I could probably figure it out.
Fair enough, but kinda off-topic.
I completely agree with you and said many times that while I don't like the fact that Windows isn't open-source it does provide a LOT of value for a LOT of people who work on certain fields and haver certain software requirements. With Windows there's a lot of commercial support when it comes to Linux desktop it simply isn’t there.
If you require “professional” software such as MS Office, Adobe Apps, Autodesk, NI Circuit Design and whatnot Linux isn’t a viable options. The alternatives wont cut it if you require serious collaboration… virtualization, emulation (wine) may work but won’t be nice. Going for Linux kinda adds the same pains of going macOS but 10x. Once you open the virtualization door your productivity suffers greatly, your CPU/RAM requirements are higher and suddenly you’ve to deal with issues in two operating systems instead of just one. And… let’s face it, nothing with GPU acceleration will ever run decently unless big companies start fixing things - GPU passthroughs and getting video back into the main system are a pain and add delays.
To make things worse the Linux desktop development ecosystem is essentially non existent. The success of Windows and macOS is the fact that they provide solid and stable APIs and development tools that “make it easy” to develop for those platforms and Linux is very bad at that. The major pieces of Linux are constantly and ever changing requiring large and frequent re-works of apps. There aren’t distribution “sponsored” IDEs (like Visual Studio or Xcode), userland API documentation, frameworks etc.
It's because half the people that post here's entire personality is using Linux.