Across America, clean energy plants are being banned faster than they're being built

L4sBot@lemmy.worldmod to Technology@lemmy.world – 448 points – Across America, clean energy plants are being banned faster than they're being built
usatoday.com

Across America, clean energy plants are being banned faster than they're being built::The clock is ticking toward a deadline to meet renewable-energy standards. But USA TODAY's analysis finds local governments banning wind turbines, solar plants.

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“But a wave of disinformation in 2023, falsely claiming offshore wind projects killed whales, resulted in a sharp decline in public support for offshore wind.”

I can’t believe people fell for that.

In Mexico we had a dumb politician who said windmills stole the air of the people.

Mexico by way of south korea?

https://slate.com/human-interest/2013/01/fan-death-korean-moms-think-that-your-electric-fan-will-kill-you.html

People believe weird shit everywhere, unfortunately

Edit: couldn't get Wikipedia to give me the urban legend definition and not the metal band. Changed the link

All that air pushing the blades has to come from somewhere!

The current president of Mexico banned almost all.the eco technologies because od absurd ramblings like thst one of that politician, but his maim goal was to steal the money that the government invested in those.

My dad was absolutely one of them... He mentioned it out of nowhere and I couldn't refute it because I had never encountered that lunacy before then...

He already wanted to hate wind then and this is just his justification. I once encountered someone telling me that wind turbines cause global warming. I told them the only part generating heat was the copper in the motor and that's the same in every power generation. Turn out Faux News misrepresented a study that showed the turbulence caused by wind turbines brought warm air to the ground level.

Except physically speaking, that warmth from the motor is still just from the energy the wind has.. energy that would get transformed to heat from friction eventually anyway. It's just that this way we get useful work for our own purposes in the form of electricity.

Regardless of the source of rotation, all other aspects are the same as far as heat generation goes. That was the point I tried getting across to the people who were insisting to me that wind turbines cause climate change. Hydro, diesel engine, NG fire or nuclear driven steam turbines, wind turbine. They're all just spinning copper coils. Any heat from those would be the same.

The copper coils also had nothing to do with the heat in question anyway. The study was just showing turbulence could bring warm air to ground level. Honestly, sounds like wind turbines should be setup above frost sensitive crops like fruit trees. One bad frost during the tree's bloom could ruin a whole year's harvest.

You absolutely can refute it. Just ask for proof.

They'll point to articles on Breitbart and other sites that are even less trustworthy.

I hate that. They'll just say something like "well how can you support solar panels when it kills the rare ballet fork bird?! Or when the solar panels kill the nearby trees!? Or when the toxic chemicals leak into the streams and the kill the river!?"

It's just like this slew of crap and you can't possibly know it's totally crap when you start talking to them. Then you go back research it and it turns out it's from some (typically CCP or Russian financially backed) fake news website "pRoMOTinG fReeDoM aNd tHe AMeRicAn wAY."

Then they just don't want to hear about how freedom4everything.scam is a scam and think you're being political and close minded for insisting they check these things out and look for collaborating sources with more credibility, NYTimes, Washington Post, WSJ, etc.

Then that turns into a whole "but the NYTimes is too liberal to ever mention mutant fish caused by renewable energy" ... and it just goes on and on...

I don't know how well it works in the end, but when I see that kind of stuff from people I usually say "I'm not going to tell you who to listen to, but try not to use sources that are named anything politically charged. No "patriot.grift" site no "RealMuricanDaily.bs" no "StarSpangledReport.asshat" anyone who chooses a name like that is broadcasting a political bias."

I can. There is a reason why only two new nuclear reactors have been built since 1972 in the nation that figured the technology out first. It takes almost nothing to scare people out of being smart

I mean... it's quite different for nuclear there has been some big international incidents and it's something that hurted people directly plus invisible stuff that can kill you usually is terrifying. Knowing that a similar technology is used for bombs that cause terrible destruction didn't help either.

So even though it can be done with no risks... Is quite understandable people being afraid of it.

Like the whale thing is nothing in comparison.

Everything you just said can apply to coal. There are monthly incidents involving coal mines and plants. It puts out plenty of stuff that is invisible and can kill you. Plus hydrocarbons are the lifeblood of all warfare almost as much as gunpowder.

Go spend a few years of your life building scrubbers for coal and low grade diesel then get back to me about how nuclear is dangerous. Bunch of rednecks with screwdrivers and drunk ex-Sovits with wrenchs. I have seen them do some scary stuff. At least with a nuclear plant you can't wipe your butt without ten PEs signing off on it.

The total death toll and the number of people suffering health issues (past and present) due to coal are orders of magnitude larger than those due to nuclear power (not to even mention the damage to the environment!). The problem is that people respond more to one-time big disasters than to numbers over time. Something like Chornobyl is terrifying and a big deal, so people remember it. They don't remember every Tom, Dick and Harry that's died over the years due to black lung or accidents or other stuff from coal.

You can even see this attitude in other ways too. It seems like a lot of Americans are still suffering mass trauma from 9/11 and accept the most horrific Patriot Act-type shit because of it. But in the end, it was less than 3000 people who died in the attack (and don't get me wrong, it was terrible!), but waaaaaaay more people die (and have died) from lack of (access to) healthcare, and it seems that still barely anyone is actually trying to fix that. Or a mass shooting that kills 11 people, that's a big deal, right? But the fact that over a million Americans died due to Covid didn't really register as a disaster for a lot of people.

Nuclear power is such a no-brainer to me, but it sounds 'scary' and lots of people don't understand it, which makes it even more scary. Plus, of course the fossil fuel industry propaganda and lobbying, and the memory of people who know other people who used to work in coal towns and had pretty decent lives. Or the "what about nuclear waste!"-crap that always comes up. Yes, nuclear waste is a thing, but let's put it next to all the damaging crap that coal mines produce, accumulated. It's way worse.

Anyway. It's hard to fight all that, even when rationally, statistically, nuclear power should be a no-brainer. Edit: and there is no political will either, it seems. Whether it's because they love their fossil fuel bribes or because they're too scared to lose some voters.. they'll never do good things just to do good.

Edit: just to be clear, it's definitely not a USA-exclusive problem. I currently live in Germany and their weird relationship to nuclear power is also batshit. All based on fear and bullshit.

Stastics vs tragedies There is also something to bite sized evils vs large unbearable ones

The people falling for that are the ones trying to detox off of oxygen addiction.

Wind mills do kill birds, but all you have to do to prevent it is paint one of the turbines black so it doesn't blend into the sky when it is turning, allowing birds to avoid them. But unfortunately thay costs money and smooth brain fossil fuel stans would rather just poison the wind rather than harness it.

Cats and buildings kill many orders of magnitude more birds than wind turbines

wind energy is going to continue increasing exponentially for a while, it would be wise to mitigate the death of more birds. I also support exterminating stray cats and putting harsh fines on folks who keep outside cats as well. Birds need protecting and we are woefully failing as a species to do so.

Non-native lawns are a huge reason for the native bird decline across NA in the last 3 decades.

Non-native cats are multiple orders of magnitudes worse for bird populations. Non-native lawns mainly effect polinators.

Meh with non-native cats over here gone the native cats would do the killing. The reason we spay strays is more to protect wildcats against c competition, they're not interbreeding much but long-term it's a concern.

Obligatory picture and another yes they do look quite like domestic ones. Behaviour is quite different, though, particularly they're impossible to domesticate. Behaviour you'd consider severely fucked-up cat psychology in African wildcats (which are the ones who domesticated themselves by moving into grain storages) are par for the course for European wildcats. They're not asocial, they're not broken, they just hate humans.

I see your data clearly presented and submit my anecdotal. Clearly I win and we should burn more coal.

Gotta love that the same guy who keeps complaining about windmills killing birds is the guy who also got famous building a giant glass tower in New York.

Why would anything kill fields for birds though? Let them do their own damn work.

The currently existing design of wind turbines is incredibly stupid anyway, I have no idea how we landed on that design. It's one of the least effective designs possible for it's use case. We should be using spiral turbines.

The current three blade design of utility-scale turbines achieves about 80% of the Betz limit, are relatively efficient in materials for their output, and the blades' pitch can be adjusted to control their speed in varying conditions (eg. during storms). I wouldn't call their design "incredibly stupid".

That looks like it would be hard to manufacture and transport at the size requirements that traditional blades are made. It's already a massive pita to transport the traditional blades. I'm sure we'll figure it out eventually, but that's probably the current reasoning.

That's too futuristic and only belongs on other planets like mars

With the size they are, I wouldn't just paint them black. It might throw off the balance. They should be shipping then black from factory.

I wanna make energy without fucking anything up.

"Yeah no, stop that right now. It's illegal."

Who the fuck does this? What's going through their head to make them think there's any justification? How is there multiple idiots collaborating well enough to get in the way!?

Some are NIMBYs. Most, however, are alt-right reality-hostile whackadoodles who see any “renewable” energy generation as a liberal plot to destroy America.

These people actively think that renewables will harm America.

How do I know this? We have the same crazies up here in Canada. Some of them, despite having been born here, routinely confuse the two countries, spouting US legislation - like the constitutions and amendments - in “defense” of their “freedoms” being “infringed upon” by things like wind turbines.

Nah man, it's some, not most, which makes it all the more depressing. My hometown is a farm town, and some are crying and moaning about turbines, some aren't.

The Business-minded Farmers see the green, the local Liberals see the other green, the Hicks see an eyesore, and the Yokels see da librul nrg and shit themselves because "it's happening in their town".

Yokels panic and lie to the hicks, hicks then get scared and hateful towards the one thing that's not a Dollar General promising new jobs for the town in the last several decades.

It's not just NIMBY or alt-right trolls that are against windmills. There are legitimate issues with living next to one that get discounted by people that aren't exposed to it.

Having noise regulation on the windmills that prevents people living near from hearing them would prevent that from being an issue, but ridicule is the chosen response.

The blade causing a repetitive shadow is annoying for people and there isn't a good solution.

Giving residents within .5-1 miles of a windmill free or reduced electricity would also probably solve 90% of the backlash. It would reduce profits though so it won't happen.

In other words, the Fox News virus continues to spread, and we all suffer for it.

Seems to be a bit of a recurring theme these days…😷

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To explain the farmer view on wind: I don't want Industry/ugly ass turbines right next to me.

But banning solar is the dumbing fucking shit I've ever heard of. Bumfuckistan, Buckfuck Nowhere, my hometown at least has solar without a complaint.

Zero farmers want to ban wind. They want to lease their land to power generation companies. They do it all the time, especially where they just graze cattle or sheep. They can do both at the same time.

Farmers own land to make money, not look at it.

I used to think this, then my sister moved out to the country. The farmers and others who live out there bitch and bitch and bitch about the windmills because they look ugly, and all blink red lights synchronously at night and it’s creepy.

I think they just don’t like change, which is why they live in the middle of nowhere. I’m also fully in favor of windmills despite hearing their frustrations, I don’t have to live out there. They’ve never bothered me when I visit though.

But for farmers who don’t graze their animals near the windmills but instead plant crops, the lease doesn’t always cover the loss of cropland apparently. Because they can’t plant within a radius of the thing.

Cry more. I don't want the climate change to kill everyone.

Edit: also if we're complaining about ugly, let me make a list. I'll start at people rolling coal and end at the fat acceptance people in my fit girls porn.

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Windmill cancer.

I had my conservative professor uncle tell me we can't use windmills because "they use up all the wind."

imagine having to explain to your elders that wind isn't some finite resource.

Wind is finite, and there has actually been research done to estimate the impact slower winds would have (a few degrees iirc), it's just that this is massively offset by the pros of using wind.

no, wind is not a finite resource. it's produced by the heating and cooling of the earth. Wind turbines aren't doing anything to stop the sun from coming up and going down.

Seriously? What Facebook University source did you get that from?

All that precious wind we need for top soil erosion

Hate to break it to you but wind is a finite resource, it's unlikely that earths inhabitants would ever saturate it -it is still quite possible just excessively unlikely.

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OMG this is the dumbest thing.. In NY the town of Florida banned a windmill on waste property, then in racquet lake where they get all sorts of outages they stopped a battery from being installed because they might catch fire. These were BYD LFP batteries, and they were referencing LG chem batteries catching fire in Arizona as the reason.

Upstate NY is just the cold weather version of the Bible Belt.

I live in wny the windmills fucking suck. You spend your life savings buying property in the country with gorgeous scenery and views and bam farmer under the thumb of the state gets conned into putting windmills up and your peaceful piece of property is now staring at some dystopian looking shithole landacape. I dont do the conspiracy theories but i totally get voting to not allow windmills in an area you own property in.

I saw them in the little falls area they look fine to me. I'm sure they are noticed when people have lower energy bills.

These things look beautiful though

Right? I can get "it's not the view I signed up for" or something, but my dude you do not own the view. You want to own the view it costs a hell of a lot more

All you have to do is sell power cheaper then them from a source that is also clean or decrease the usage and bam less demand for windmills

Are you kidding me? I opened the article in order to find reasons for banning but after like reading 10min, I gave up, it is such a repetitive article with so many useless words.. Has someone a TLDR?

Former President Donald Trump often denigrates wind and solar power in his speeches. In December in New Hampshire, he said, falsely, that wind farms only last 10 years, that they kill “all the birds,” that solar energy isn’t powerful enough to run factories and that wind is 42 times more expensive than natural gas.

(...)

“It’s going to change our lifestyle and the landscape and everything around here,” he said.

(...)

The opposition sometimes leads to surprising arguments about property rights, in which some landowners invoke concepts like a claim to a "viewshed" – views they want free of wind turbines or solar panels. These opponents clash with others who champion a different view of private property rights, saying landowners should be free to build what they want.

I see, the oil and coal lobby, who would have thought

Cozied on up with Nimbys.

Nimbys are truly Karen's in their final form.

Ok. I want to be free of sky scrapers. Ban them. Remind me again why my opinion about this doesn't matter.

A lot of places do have limits like that. Plus style choices in the building codes.

Awful, we really need some kind of federal fast track for these sorts of badly needed projects that cuts through the NIMBY bullshit.

I mean, this isn't so bad. While the rest of the world lives in a solar punk future, the US could be like some secluded cyberpunk bubble that would give many scholars in the future stuff to write their thesis about, while also providing a good source of memes for the rest of enlightened humanity.

I don't want share a land border with that cyberpunk bubble, thank you very much.

Fix your shit, America.

They'd be walled in to prevent their filth from physically reaching any of the other countries

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I live in one of the most progressive cities in the US and have had the same issue here. We have no driveway and park on the street but regulations say we cant use the grass strip (the area between the srreet and the curb) to install a charging station for an ev in front of our house. For 5 years we tried to get permission to do this without luck and have given up on ever getting an EV. I dont get how there is any hope for electric vehicles if there arent any working solutions for the millions of people in the United States who dont have a driveway or garage.

Its time to grab a beer kick back and watch as the planet is destroyed by slow moving bearacratic regulation.

I gave up on humanity decades ago. I've got a bottle of SoCo set aside for the end of the world.

Who knew that America was the very thing they taught us the enemy was when we were growing up.