Downvotes = “I disagree” or “this is bad and you should feel bad”?
I think I’ve settled on the latter. Disagreement is maybe best communicated by the absence of an upvote? And downvotes work best when they signal something that is just off base, and while not reportable, is not appreciated at a broad cultural level.
I think voting based on quality of content (and NOT whether you agree with it) is the best approach for healthy discussions. If somebody is a low effort troll, then for sure downvote (and maybe even consider reporting).
OTOH, if somebody makes a well written and thoughtful post about why Totoro is the best Ghibli movie ever, and meanwhile you think Totoro is not even in their top 3, then I would still recommend NOT downvoting 😃
Yes. This.
Upvoting things you disagree with but are well put and compelling is the litmus test in a way.
Vote for quality = a better platform
Vote for personal appreciation = a toxic platform ?
The problem is that there's no way to enforce this in practice. All of these conversations about voting culture, with examples and pontificating always just come off as "everyone who drives slower than me is a grandpa, everyone who drives faster than me is a lunatic."
Downvotes will always be an "I disagree" button no matter what anyone wants or thinks.
Most people on Lemmy right now are not using them in that way. As we grow, misuse of downvotes will almost certainly become more common, but right now people are self-policing their behavior for the most part
Those of us on kbin can see who up/downvotes. I've noticed, anecdotally, that once this became more wildly known, there have been fewer downvotes that mean "I disagree", with them mostly being used on troll posts or obviously bigoted posts.
I'm aware of that and I like that behavior.
I'm also wary of potential downsides though. I think in smaller communities it could be a problem because people might start fights with each other when they check who downvoted them. But I'm not sure, at least now we have a good test environment on kbin, and so far it seems to be beneficial based on what you're saying.
I think it's overall good. A vote is no longer an anonymous action-- it's personal, just like leaving a comment supporting or disagreeing would be. While I don't think it would ever be appropriate to harass a person because they up/down voted something, I do think people should have to make the mental calculation about whether they're willing to have any specific up or down vote available for anyone to see.
I think it's done more good than harm and don't want to see them anonymized again... but I do have to say I've found myself withholding a downvote that I think was completely justifiable and deserved because I didn't want to be the first and only one and get shit for it.
I guarantee it won't be long before communities begin using this information.
Remember on Reddit how many subs would prematurely ban any accounts that participated in subs they disliked? That was entirely driven by the users, not the platform. Imagine if they had your voting information too.
I predict we'll start seeing throwaway accounts for voting, to disassociate your voting records from your posting persona.
This is kind of why, I feel like it is a bad thing. People can’t vote normally or are afraid to do so in a way.
Some won’t use the vote system to avoid possible trouble (arguments, downvoting back etc).
I personally have started to care way less about the upvote and downvote stuff. Reddit made it clear to me that it means nothing.
It just internet points and if something goes wrong, it’s all gone anyway.
Totally agree. I'm just trying to brainstorm possible issues that may crop up in the future. Many times, the solution to a problem simply introduces a different problem.
Although as I'm considering it, the ease of making alts on this platform mitigates any potential issues, because the whole thing can be sidestepped by downvoting with an alt.
Overall, yeah I'm in favor of bringing that functionality to Lemmy and seeing how it goes.
When I joined I rarely saw any down votes. Sadly this already got worse, depending where you are.
This is why the Beehaw way is a good approach. No downvotes only upvotes. Then people actually have to tell why they disagree.
Eh I still like downvotes and find myself just not enjoying beehaw as much without them. I mostly just don't get the moral panic over having a disagree button more than anything.
Moral panic? What? It's about healthy community dialogue and slightly how downvotes impacts the psyche.
If someone tells you why they dislike something you like, you're not doing anyone a favor by downvoting it.
You are ignoring how trolls operate in reality though. THey explicitly use "just having an opinion" as cover for shitting up a forum. Look up "sealioning."
But again, this is my opinion. People are far too concerned about the downvote button. And the fact that the above, completely respectful but seemingly controversial opinion already has downvotes kind of proves my point.
It would be useful if people actually used it to burrow trolls, sealions and irrelevant comments as intended, but as I've seen people can't be trusted with that because as you say: It becomes a "disagree" instead, that targets everything that people disagree with. It gets inane on political topics where useless comments for the right tribe gets immensely upvoted. "Covfefe" Yes, very informative. There could be alternate vote for agreement, funny, or troll mark.
Yeah I like this, definitely a troll button next to the vote buttons would be really useful for users to self-moderate comments
Hmm, that is a good point. I really wish Beehaw would refederate with SJW so we could benefit from their activity and experience more. I don't agree with every decision they make but they certainly have insightful takes at times
This hasn't been my experience at all. Especially in lemmy.ml worldnews threads which get constantly brigaded by tankies.
Edit - it seems I replied to the wrong comment
I dont use that community so I haven't seen that.
Maybe try worldnews@sh.itjust.works instead.
Hi there! Looks like you linked to a Lemmy community using a URL instead of its name, which doesn't work well for people on different instances. Try fixing it like this: !worldnews@sh.itjust.works
I think you meant something else, that's a person not a community. Perhaps !worldnews@sh.itjust.works wait i thought the ! Was necessary now I'm confused augh
I used a hyperlink. Looks like this without the space (_)
[worldnews@sh.itjust.works]_(https://sh.itjust.works/c/worldnews)
It's definitely a community
Oh I assumed it was one guy because it's the same bot spamming those
Hi there! Looks like you linked to a Lemmy community using a URL instead of its name, which doesn't work well for people on different instances. Try fixing it like this: !worldnews@sh.itjust.works
I’ve upvoted comments that I disagreed with, but were well written an contributed to a good discussion. I only downvote for very low quality, spam or hateful comments.
Low effort trolls want downvotes though. You’re better off just ignoring them.
For me, downvote typically means either "this adds nothing to the discussion" or "this was made in bad faith"
Yes. I upvote stuff I disagree with constantly. That's because I view the purpose to promote content that furthers discussion.
Downvote = "I think this should be less visible than it is."
Generally for disagreeing with something that's pretty petty.
But if it's verifiably misinformation, downvotes are more than warranted.
Agreed. The function of the down vote is to deprioritize that post/comment. People should use the down vote when they want to deprioritize that post/comment.
Its both. It will never, not be both. This idea that there should be some rule that we have to up vote things that we disagree with because it's well written is cope from people that needs to go outside.
Comments get downvoted because it failed to convince people to agree with the comment and that makes it a bad comment.
But as an intelligent person, you can also discriminate between something that doesn't convince you personally, and something that is completely without value or irrelevant.
When you refrain from downvoting in the former instance, you contribute to a more healthy discussion. Not every person that I disagree with is a bad person; similarly, not every comment that I disagree with is a bad comment.
Yes, it really bugs me when I get downvotes but not one single comment articulating what they are not liking or what they disagree with. I could not care less about the score, I'm here for discussion and also debate. I often find when I ask "why the downvotes" it's because people misinterpreted what I wrote (my fault, I need to be clear) or I used info they didn't have (something I know because of an area of interest that I think it's common knowledge in that group). Both can "fixed" by discussion.
You're taking things way to personally on the internet if you worry about down votes. It's not people's job to explain everything to you. Sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't, learn to move on from downvotes.
Same man. But you hit the nail on the head, regardless of how you upvote or downvote, its usually even better to just make a comment and explain your thoughts, respectfully of course.
I just upvoted that was then realized I should indicate my agreement with a comment. :)
I agree with the above convo you've been having, but your comment made me think, so I'll play a little devils advocate here: do we want 1000 "I agree." comments following each other comment? Not really. There needs to be a simple way to say "I like this but don't have anything to add". An upvote accomplishes this.
As for downvotes, yes they need to be more than "I disagree". Something akin to "I don't think this contributes". I liked someone's suggestion that we need more than the binary up and down. Maybe a "troll" vote too.
Yes, I actually agree, I was just adding that was a little joke which maybe wasn't the best choice. :)
I caught the joke :) I mentioned playing devils advocate cus I don't want to actually attack you or anything, I just saw an interesting opposing viewpoint that I hadn't heard expressed yet. I think your closer to the best solution in general tho
Would you like to make an example of a good comment that you disagree with? Because in my world comments that I disagree with are bad comments. If they were good comments I would agree with them. I am not some teacher grading essays and giving points for good structure.
That's exactly my point. You are not the ultimate judge of what is good and what is bad. I'm not telling you to upvote things you disagree with, I'm simply telling you to not downvote unless it's clearly not relevant.
All of your comments on this thread are good comments that I disagree with. Sometimes, disagreement leads to growth.
I don’t disagree.
But
Goes too far. That a social media comment is the limit of what is possible as far as persuasion and learning goes, especially on difficult or controversial topics, is plainly wrong. Mind shifts can be hard work. And so there’s plenty of space in which a comment can be making a worthwhile point, politely and clearly, without it ever being able to be persuasive, just by the nature of the audience and topic.
There's also low-effort/value comments that agree with your worldview but are bad contribution to the debate. Especially on controversial topics.
I'm sure there will always be lots of updates for things that shit on the opposition, especially when the majority thinks the opposition is morally and intellectually corrupt, but I'd rather those posts/comments be demoted (or e.g. relegated to a shitposting community) so healthy discussion can happen. And the truth can be seen more fairly.
As a side note: some of Reddit's majority opinions which I broadly agree with, I found myself shifting away from, because most of its supporting posts are stupid arguments. And some of the opponents I've gained sympathy for, because whenever I check the source for hate against them, it's ill-founded. I tried not to take much opinion from Reddit anyway, but I love it when good debate frames the truth more clearly.
=This is Bad content, which i want to see less of
I think this is very close to the most solid answer possible. Like
I agree completely with this bit. Downvotes are inherently subjective, as is the concept of Bad content. But to make a choice of what to downvote, someone has to identify something worth deeming downvotable, and screw it, that's a good way to deacribe what the majority of what falls under that umbrella.
The next bit is where I'd make a correction.
You can't unsee that bad content, it's too late. And you can't guarantee that downvoting will dissuade its continued presence. The only correlation between the two involves an expected emotional attachment between the posters of the bad content and their scoring outcome, and that's not always here nor there. Bad content posters can be persistent.
But downvoting it has an immediate effect on the visibility of the Bad content for other people. It also labels that content. Doing so, puts it away from other people's eyes, and tells others that someone thinks it should be put away. Maybe they'll come to agree or disagree with that downvote, maybe it'll lead to you seeing less content. Also no guarantee. But that immediate effect, the visibility and the score, can not be taken away.
In either scenario, it's a communication tool. It may relate to your wishes for content, but mechanically, its impact is felt by a third party.
Dude wrote an entire essay for my two-sentence comment.
Valid points, though
I withhold downvotes until it means "this is disinformation, or misinformation so wrong-headed it could mislead those new to the topic"
Same, and also "this has already been said in this thread. You should have upvoted the existing comment." Basically a tool to improve signal-to-noise ratio of the discussion.
Downvote = other people probably should ignore this post. It isn't likely to do any good for them. Upvote = hey, everybody! Look at this!
Neither; downvotes = this doesn't contribute to the topic and/or doesn't contribute anything relevant to the conversation.
That's what a lot of us agreed it was for a long time ago, but most people use it as an "I don't like this", or "I disagree" button. Some people even use it as an "I don't like you personally" button. There were a few times on Reddit when I got into an argument with someone and they went through my profile and downvoted everything they saw until they got bored.
i will downvote anythong that is false, misleading, doesn't contribute to the conversation or classic reddit humor adding to the same joke
I stick to the original "Reddiquette" which I wish more people stuck to or even fucking READ for a start.
Downvotes were meant for off-topic and spam nonsense. They were NEVER meant for disagreement. If you disagreed with someone you were encouraged to comment in response. It fostered a much better and interesting community with people of differeing views not afraid to voice their dissent.
You would literally get right and left-wingers having heated but civil debates with each other and neither would be getting heavily downvoted. Can you imagine that happening on Reddit nowadays?
When Diggers and the general populace jumped on Reddit downvotes just turned into a spiteful and underhanded way of saying "Fuck your opinion and I don't feel like justifying it".
This resulted in echo chambers where people were too afraid to voice their true opinions cos they'd get downvoted and at worst banned from the subreddit by over-zealous mods who'd forgotten what downvotes were for.
I have a personal theory that this accelerated the polarisation of politics across the English-speaking world. Maybe if Republicans* didn't get so heavily downvoted they wouldn't have turned to places like The_Donald and 8chan to vent in like-minded echo chambers. They could discuss things without getting villified and have their views challenged in a civil manner.
*NB. Shouldn't matter but to be clear I'm a left wing Brit. I'm just using Donald Trump/Democrats as a will known divisive issue.
I LOVE Lemmy because it has the oldschool Reddit vibe where people will disagree and neither person is downvoting the other. They just have civil discussion. Much better!!
Personally I NEVER downvote unless it's utterly meaningless, pointless or just downright spam. I recently added one more trigger for me to downvote though: Low effort bullshit like "This" or puns that add ntohing to the conversation except to garner upvotes for their 'comedic' value.
There's difference in disagreeing in opionion and thinking someone is just wrong. In the latter case, I find it reasonable to suppress their comment using downvotes.
This right here. For a while after moving to Lemmy, people were using voting like this. Now it's back to downvotes everywhere on things people disagree on.
Originally up- and down votes were intended to crowd source filtering and rating content in a community. So voting up for things you want to see more of and vote down spam or content that is unfit for the community. But people will tend to upvote things they agree with and downvote those they deem wrong - I also find myself doing something like that. I now try to follow these rules:
It helps that lemmy currently shows the number of up and down votes instead of just the score, it gives a bit more inhibition before downvoting stuff.
On Reddit I only ever down voted things that were actually bad advice. Things people shouldn't do.
There is a quote "You can not not communicate" but on the internet you can. If I get no upvotes, I don't know if no one has seen it or people actively ignored it and it's a bad advice to feel disagreed on when no upvotes.
I personally feel frustrated when I get downvotes but no comments because I don't know why I'm downvoted. Some instances here in the lemmyverse (like mine) don't have downvotes enabled so I don't even see downvotes.
I think it's best to engage in a conversation if you disagree in a constructive way and downvote without comment if you feel this is beyond help.
If I want an article to be read by others, I give an upvote. I'll downvote if I don't want it. It has nothing to do with my side of the idea or the event. For example, a rape news was shared. My upvoting does not mean that I support the incident, it just means that it will come to the fore so others can see it.
Upvotes mean "people should see this". Downvotes mean "there is no reason for anyone to see this".
Yep. I'll up vote news of a hate crime or something, but downvote things that are directly hateful.
Context always matters and a lot of the big sites fail to understand the difference between talking about things like racism, sexism, homophobia, and transphobia and somone being those things.
Don't feel bad. I down vote things I don't want to see. Others much want to see that but I am putting my 2cents in.
This isn't reddit getting downvoted won't mean you can only post every 10mins. You can post as much as you want
Downvote = “I think this should be a little lower in the sort priority”
It’s the opposite of an upvote.
Yep same, purely for what I want to see higher/lower in the sort
I feel that should be balanced with: this is appropriate here so I won't downvote it, even if it's irrelevant to me.
... I suppose for big communities that averages out so it's okay, but maybe not for small
Yeah true! I guess there's some subtle complexities to it
Like if you downvote everything you don’t upvote, it almost doesn’t have an effect because all those things are equally bearing one new downvote and hence don’t change sort precedence with each other.
A downvote for me is: this is content i don't want in my feed
Up = I like this
Down = I hate this
If you have more ups than downs: The viewers commonly liked it.
If you have more downs than ups: The viewers commonly hated it.
It's simple and it's how it's always worked, and likely will continue to work, regardless of any deeper sentiments some people may have about it.
I wish there was a new button that simply meant "I have no opinion on this one way or another." But I guess that's simply non-engagement.
I use it as:
up = this should be here
Down = this should not be here
Course I have my own biases but. I don't want to see people get downvoted for saying things I don't like just because I don't like it. Also anyone who downvotes honest questions is just being mean.
I dont believe you.
It doesn't have to be a button. Just let users see how many other users saw their comment. If a user scrolls into the comments section and stops on my comment for a second or two, that counts as a read.
Alternatively, tally up the total number of user-seconds spent viewing my comment. Or maybe an average. Just something that lets me know I'm not a ghost!
Depends on what kind of post it is.
General discussion threads, sure - 'up' = 'good content', 'down' = 'irrelevant'. Irrelevant could be because it's not to do with the matter at hand, it could be hateful, trollish, whatever.
Post asking for a specific fact, like in ye olde askahistorian? Up = correct, down = incorrect. Doesn't matter how well written or how good the intent is, downvoting for disinformation.
One of the things that Slashdot got right was being able to upvote / downvote with a reason. (Perhaps only being able to upvote / downvote occasionally too, which stops brigading.) Made it possible to filter on why things were good, save ruining your fake internet points when you were mistaken about something as opposed to being an arsehole.
Interesting! I’ve kinda thought this myself, that having a sort of sentiment meta data attached to online actions would be an interesting way to go, kind of as a substitute for the body language and gestures we use and pick up on in real life.
Enter: the wheel of upvote options and the multidimensional spectrum of downvote options. Don't worry, I'll ask Google to analyse my life history and feed it into the emote-i-vote.
Come to think of it, I like the attach emoticon thing in GitHub (and lots of other social media? But I've liked it in GitHub) to get a relatively convenient and concise expression of "I like your message in this particular(ish) way"
Yea emoji reactions are fun. Calckey has them and it works well.
100% you should feel bad. I hope everyone i downvote cries themselves to sleep
Sooo ... if this is sarcasm I'm not sure I quite get it? People shouldn't be so sensitive about downvotes and the like?
Does the thought of the person, that you plan to downvote, crying themselves to sleep make you happy? Then you should downvote them. I think that's what they wanted to say.
I just think everyone I downvote is undeniably evil and any amount of hatred towards them is justified
Based
I want everyone i downvote to die and burn in hell
The thing is, downvotes mean whatever the person downvoting feels like they mean. Personally I don’t downvote anything, only upvote.
It would be interesting to have a bot that looks for bad actors—by that I mean users who abuse the downvote and do not use it the way the community agrees that it means. And have a mod review and take action if necessary.
I enjoy reading thoughtful content that I disagree with. I downvote based on perceived intent of the comment or post. If it’s just mean, hateful, trolling, wildly off-topic, or anything like that it will get a downvote.
Are upvotes for agreement ok though? Or should upvotes be reserved for quality content?
Yep. As said by @sunaurus@lemm.ee it was the concept I was reaching for I think.
If you agree with something, you probably consider it quality content.
I think wrong information and rudeness should get downvoted, nothing more.
Let say there is a news story of a horrible event. I will up vote it so people see it and read it to learn. I am not up voting it because I am promoting the horrible event.
Somewhat vague but I think of it as "this doesn't belong here." It seems to be the most fitting - something could not belong because it's irrelevant, or because it's rude, or because nobody wants to see it. All up to interpretation, I suppose, but better that than a hard rule than I either don't feel good about sometimes or that prevents me from downvoting things that probably should be downvoted but don't explicitly break that rule.
The only times I've really been downvoting is if someone is giving out completely incorrect information, like in a support thread or something, and confusing matters. It's not a personal judgement or anything, just trying to keep things clear for the person asking the question.
If I disagree with a comment, well no biggie. Sometimes it's worth discussing like adults and sometimes it's just a subjective opinion. If it's offensive, I'll report it and block the user.
On Reddit, up/down was intended to be used as relevant or not relevant. Then Facebook came around with the Like button and changed the standard.
Coming from the perspective of Digg, Reddit was about sharing external content and giving something an upvote was used to promote that content while a downvote was used to discourage that content from being seen. It was democratic in that the users were relied on for ranking posts without the need for moderators having to establish rules and remove things.
Then Reddit employed an algorithm and most people visit Popular and All making it a shitstorm of irrelevance. People upvote stuff they like that has absolutely no reason to be posted in a sub. Never mind everything that's gone on with Reddit in recent months, it's users' inability to properly use the upvote / downvote buttons that has caused the site to become absolute trash.
Here, we have the added tool of the Star to indicate that we like something while at the same time downvoting it because it's not relevant to the sub. The problem is that the vast majority of people don't want to think about or put any effort into anything. At this point, anything that looks like a thumbs up is getting selected because they like it.
If you disagree with someone, you shouldn't do anything unless you have something to say. Engage with them in conversation and express your point of view - this is "social media". If others feel your point is relevant you should get an upvote; if you're off topic you should get a downvote.
Reading over the other comments here, I think most people are expressing a similar perspective. It's about rankings, not feelings.
I've always been partial to "irrelevant to the discussion".
For example: if a post is detailing increased temperatures compared to a previous year: ✅ Comment saying "This is most likely an effect of global warming" ✅ Comment saying "This paper is potentially biased as the paper/publication is sponsored" ✅ Replies to these comments discussing the legitimacy of their claims (for or against them) ⛔ Comment which is promoting their own content (even if related) with no discussion of the linked post ⛔ Intentionally incendiary comments. "Liberals will say it's climate change I bet." ⛔ Completely off topic. "Ok but guys let's talk about SCARING THE HOES for a second here. Straight flames."
Too many people use a downvote as "I disagree" when a comment may actually provide a different viewpoint and - as long as it's respectful and open to counterpoints itself - can be a nice addition to the discussion.
Sad part of the design is that I need to interact with a post to get it off my feed so if it's an some stupid meme or whatever i just downvote and move on to clear up all the repeats.
The setting is off by default but you turn on hide post after interaction in the settings.
Everyone will come up with their own metric and the results will be an average of both and other things.
I think we have some scope to try to establish and monitor cultural norms.
Depends on what kind of "I don't agree". If somebody asks for people's favorite food, I'm not going to dislike all other answers... But if it's a more serious question, and an answer just has a really bad take that I don't agree with, that's getting a dislike.
I think someone else mentioned the same here, but as I've browsed down the opinions, I wonder if it's good for different communities to have their own subculture on what votes mean.
For sure, outsiders dropping by might vote 'counter-culturally' and unhelpfully, but you can get a general sense of understanding in a community.
For r/all-alike stuff I'm sure things are different.
More like get this shit outa here
Downvote for bad technical advise, I think the person is a bad actor/bad faith argument, or if the person turns
hostileto ad hominem attacks. I try not to downvote if I'm putting the effort into debating someone.edit: for clarity
Yeah if someone say something I disagree with but isn't factually wrong I'll just leave it be.
Downvotes = disabled on my instance
Haha yep.
And beehaw too. Wonder how many others.
I feel like this is a good approach. Honestly an invisible voting system might be better cause how many up or down votes something has prevents others from fully forming their own opinion.
Upvoted. Feel bad that i disagree. 😵
I only downvote hateful stuff or obvious bots and spam. The same as I do on anything with upvotes and downvotes.
I like it to gauge what the general consensus is. Agree or not.
I think of it like a digital facial expression. Upvoting is akin to smiling or conveying some other positive emotion like affirmation or understanding (even if the subject matter is inherently negative). Downvote is the opposite- someone says something irl that makes you frown or grimmace, or you know they're telling you a lie, your expression can convey that without a single word. Here, downvote.
There's no real etiquette - if you feel like you want to give an up or down vote, just do it and don't put too much thought into it.
It's weird how nobody ever goes off on these philosophical treatises about what a downvote is REALLY supposed to be for unless they copped a shit ton of downvotes for their awful takes
To quote the famed philosopher T. Soprano: "Alright, but you gotta get over it."
I don't that's entirely fair or true across the board. I haven't received a ton of downvotes or anything, but realised that I didn't know what to do with the downvote and that some were clearly using downvotes where I don't think I would have.
For my, it was more sympathetic. I was thinking about people who do get downvoted and whether I'm ok with that.
There's some part of my brain that applies display:none to the upvote/downvote function on every platform.
So if I don't vote on your content it's not because I hate it. My brain is just wired to automatically edit out anything that's not content. Mostly this means ads, but voting features seem to have been caught in the net too.
I feel this very much, but yet I've upvoted you... The brain is weird.
And I downvoted because "I have special eyes" posts are cringe.
Hmm interesting question never thought about it, maybe both/varies from post to post
I generally don't downvote unless somone is being bigoted or hateful.
The latter. If it's just disagreement a quick reply is best, and sometimes it gets worked out just fine.
No
Lol, point taken. It has to be an actual rebuttal, and I guess that does take time. Downvoting everything you don't immediately agree with seems like a bad policy, though.
Taste my righteous wrath and because I can do it with one click without explaining why means I don't need to and the internet is on my side. Feels like the implicit meaning when I'm downvoted.
Downvote = I disagree
I disagree so I gave you a downvote
That's exactly my point. You are not the ultimate judge of what is good and what is bad. I'm not telling you to upvote things you disagree with, I'm simply telling you to not downvote unless it's clearly not relevant.
All of your comments on this thread are good comments that I disagree with. Sometimes, disagreement leads to growth.