Why is TikTok seen as privacy invading and bad, but Facebook is fine?
I'm not here to claim that Tiktok is completely harmless, or that it's even a good site. I'm sure they absolutely do collect as much personal information as they can, and I'm sure they give it to the Chinese government whenever they ask. But I don't understand how Meta and Facebook are meant to be any better? There's always a lot of hoo-haa going on with politicians promising to ban tiktok, and (at least back on Reddit) everybody's vowing they will never use tiktok because it's such a privacy invasive site. Yet I never see anybody going up against Facebook, at least the average person, but they collect just as much personal info and I'm sure hand it over whenever any government agency in the US asks them to
It kind of feels to me like this is some sort of country thing. China is bad, so they shouldn't have your personal info. But the US is the last bastion of free speech and privacy, so their companies would NEVER dare to invade your privacy, and their government would never abuse their power to get people's personal info
I'm aware Lemmy probably isn't the best place to ask since most people here seem to be deep into open source software and often privacy focused (so I suppose wouldn't use either) but this also feels like the only place on the internet I might actually get an answer that isn't just "TIKTOK BAD". If you refuse to use tiktok but are ok with Facebook - why?
Facebook is NOT FINE
And most people that have an issue with TikTok will also have an issue with Facebook. Not sure where OP got the idea there's a general consensus that one is ok and not the other.
We're talking more about TiKTok now because it's newer, growing, and on of the most prevalent platforms at the moment.
The fact Facebook is a privacy invading monster is old news. We're not talking about it as much because it's declining and everyone already knows.
A good deal of Facebook usage also tends to be begrudging because groups and relatives refuse to move off it.
China. Also, no one is saying FB is fine, but since it’s American then gov pretty much shrugs. It was FB after all feeding the NSA yeah?
Not so much saying it, but I personally know several people who'll argue that Tiktok is a privacy invading god awful website that should be banned then 5 minutes later proceed to doomscroll Facebook
I tolerate Facebook on my network, but tiktok is an absolute no for me, null routed.
Why do you fear the CCP more then the NSA?
I'll let my previous comment answer that question.
But why tho, what power does the CCP have over you?
As long as the CCP can simply buy the same data from the unregulated data brokers of the world, any fear of tiktok is purely performative.
If only I could get away with that. Wife would be quite upset.
“Dang honey, guess it’s broke”
That's entirely anecdotal, and confirmation bias to boot. How many people do you know that use neither? I'll bet it's sizable.
Yeah, there are some that don't use TikTok but use Facebook, but that's not evidence of a trend. Especially when Facebook has legitimate uses that you can't easily replace with the other platforms
You're not wrong, it indeed is anecdotal, but I'm not a data analyst, and I'm not going to run a global survey asking anybody who'll answer whether they use one but not the other. All I can go on is what I've seen, and among my friends who use Facebook (most of them), I'd say 70% or so either believe, or act like they believe Facebook is less of a data theft machine than tiktok
Not sure what else you want me to say
Well there's also the thought "well I was already on Facebook from the beginning so they already have my data anyways, whereas TikTok is a completely new entity that would be collecting massive amounts of new information" It's like going from 90 to 100(Facebook) versus 0 to 100 (TikTok).
Also Facebook didn't start off being advertiser focused which is like a frog in slowly boiling water situation, but with TikTok the water started off boiling.
I mean then it's very likely just China bad, US (or familiarity) good.
I don’t use any service where I’m the product.
This is the first time I’ve ever seen the phrase “Facebook is fine” ever written out.
Mhm, me as well.
They all suck dude, they all collect data. It's just a matter of preference who you give your data to. Or you could live in the stone age and not give any data away, your choice 🤷. (My point is, even Lemmy collects some data, undoubtedly).
Who said Facebook is fine ? Threads was illegal in the EU due to privacy concern.
Facebook is most definitely not fine. However, as far as I know Facebook hasn't pushed known RCE (remote code execution) exploits into their product updates, which TikTok has. Politicians don't care about this but literally everyone else should.
Facebook is bad but TikTok is bad^bad. I use neither, Soo ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
For real tho, when me and my partner decided to delete our social media our mental health and relationship improved immensely. It even improved our social lives too, if I wanted to know how someone is doing I'll just shoot em a text or call em and catch up or setup an outing together.
How to say you're American without saying you're American
Now you know for sure they're not doing well. It's unideal but it works every time.
Similar situation: https://youtu.be/ZI64OnOKRoM?feature=shared
Got any source for that TikTok RCE exploit? All I could find was a single bug 3 years ago.
At this point it's possible that it's been fixed. I remember hearing about it a couple years ago, in the context of the bug, but I also remember hearing about how a component of their updater, when the app was broken down and deobfuscated, would just run whatever remote code package was handed to it without alerting the end user.
Even if the RCE has been fixed or removed though, the rest of their security theater is unreasonably bad, and I don't trust them near enough to ever install their app.
"Facebook is fine" Ima stop you right there, lol
They're both bad but tik tok is on steroids. There are a bunch of security researchers out there that have uncovered the crap ton of shit tik tok collects. It's basically a spyware app that also comes with a social media app. From the ground up it was meant to collect personal information and every little bit about your device. I block it on my network because any tik tok device also scans the entire network and I don't want that to happen.
By blocking you mean outgoing requests from your network to tiktok servers? Couldn’t it still scan the network and upload the results later?
I block it on dns level but I guess you're right. If it's done locally and stored, I guess I'll smash every phone I see with tik tok loaded up.
You can replace tiktok with Facebook in your comment, and it's all still true. If you really believe that tiktok is somewhow worse than FB, you aren't paying attention.
I don't use fb either but facebook is even less invasive than Tik Tok and that says a lot.
What are you basing that statement on? Last I ckecked, tiktok hasn't been implicated in facilitating genocide, subverting democratic elections, etc.
People in the know understand how shitty Facebook is, but at the very least, they're a private company. ByteDance is Chinese, and there's very little separation between Chinese companies and the Chinese government.
So, for all intents and purposes, it comes down to a company spying on you vs. a foreign government spying on you. They're both invading your privacy, but for different nefarious reasons.
Facebook is open about the fact that it hands private user data over to the US Gov't if they simply ask. Third party doctrine.
Yes but at least in theory, there's a lot less the US govt can do with that info
Neither of them are fine, but only one is owned by an oppressive regime.
Whether or not the US is oppressive is a matter of debate I don't want to get into, but they definitely spy on their own people. And I imagine they're a lot more likely to act on information about someone living in the US than China is.
Great comment. I can't figure out which "one" you are talking about, because I find Facebook/Meta oppressive.
🙄
How are they oppressive? Are they committing a genocide as we speak, like the Chinese government?
Right now? Probably.
In the past, definitely: https://techcrunch.com/2022/09/29/amnesty-report-facebook-rohingya-reparations/
I agree that facebook/meta and the way their algorithms push people to the extremes is horrbile but I don't think that's the same as committing genocide
I've literally never read any kind of online privacy guide that has said anything like "Facebook is fine". Not sure where you're getting that opinion from.
Well, not from a privacy guide lol
It's not one of those things that's said in so many words, it's more just a vibe I pick up from a lot of people. Like people I know will see a tiktok link, complain about how tiktok is a glorified data extraction machine for the CCP then proceed to go doomscroll Facebook for the next hour
Not sure how anyone can answer a question based on a "vibe" haha
Facebook is mega bad for data collection and privacy violations though. People probably just don't talk about it as much because it's been around for so long; we're used to it, we know it's bad and only boomers still actually use it.
They are both malware and I wish we could snap them out of existence thanos style.
Only getting rid of half of them? /s
Facebook isn't fine. But TikTok is worse because it's not fully controlled within our borders.
Yup, it's an arm of the state practically, and while FB is bad (oh really bad, don't get me wrong) the US state department isn't weaponizing it against journalists.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilybaker-white/2022/12/22/tiktok-tracks-forbes-journalists-bytedance/?sh=1bd26fab7da5
Since I don't live in neither country Id be spied by both countries. Just like most of 6b people in the world.
Fuck them both.
Facebook is certainly not fine, it's just talked about less, especially among the younger generations. Teens and twenty-something's haven't been drawn to Facebook for quite some time, while TikTok is currently the place to be if you're in that age range. You don't need to convince a Zoomer to avoid Facebook, because Facebook is where their grandma does social media, but TikTok is currently dominating their attention.
Haven’t seen this mentioned, but Meta hired marketing consultants to present to the government how dangerous TikTok was just so their Facebook/IG reels or whatever they are called can take their place. This spawned a ton of news articles and opinion pieces about the government talking about this new dangerous TikTok thing and how bad it is. Also, it was very clear that an anti TikTok campaign was happening on Reddit like a year ago, so the marketing didn’t stop with presenting things to the government.
And I’m not saying it isn’t a breach of privacy. I also use Google maps too, so I’m not too terribly concerned with it. But it does just seem like a marketing smear campaign centralized around the facade of xenophobia and “think of the children”
I think the issue with this question is the fact that you asked it on a decentralized platform. If you asked this same thing on a centralized social media platform, you’ll definitely get far more pro-Facebook and anti-TikTok comments and less “uh…both are bad CHECK PLEASE”
What if I told you both were bad?
Real quick --> these discussions tend to spiral off into bad faith arguments and whataboutism, I'm going to try and avoid that
I think there are a few things that come to mind for me, and I apologize for this being very disorganized
For me, it's less about who is getting the data than what data is collected. Especially because once the data is collected, it won't necessarily stay with the one entity. I wouldn't be surprised if both Facebook and TikTok benefit from the data that the other one collects, making that point somewhat moot
Yeah, that's a large part of the reason I haven't asked before. But I'm asking in good faith, and I hope I'll receive answers made in good faith
This is my sentiment too, and why I get annoyed when people claim one is worse than the other
This is a really good point - thank you!
This is where I'm at with it. Tiktok (and Instagram) are only about entertainment via content streams. There not meant to be 2-way or group communication platforms. Facebook, despite its best efforts, is still a communication platform. It's useful for local info and hobby info. Obviously pictures of cool projects get pushed to the top due to react engagement, but there's knowledgeable people keeping those groups useful.
Same as why reddit is still alive and well, despite the mini migration that brought me here. My hobby interaction was more than halved when I left. Classic forums are still dilapidated
Facebook collects far more than we think it does. I don't understand why they aren't getting hit hard with HIPAA violations yet.
Tiktok is Chinese and Facebook is American... That's why they are saying tiktok is bad... Facebook is probably worse by a considerable degree.
It's not fine - it's been around longer and the user base is rusted onto it.
I left Facebook in 2018 after discovering the level of behavioural tracking, and the discovery that Facebook had both captured and sold this information to advertisers. I found this out at a marketing technology showcase after chatting with a FB engineer.
Are you referring to privacy or security? In my opinion, they're both absolute dumpster dogshit for privacy AND security. But facebook (meta) is a US company whereas tik tok is a Chinese company. So tik tok is seen as a security risk because China is an adversary to the west. An adversary is more likely to spy through their product than a friendly nation. So tik tok is seen as a security threat by many in the west. That's basically all there is to it.
Facebook is definitely not “fine” when it comes to privacy. It’s less worse than TikTok because it’s an American-based company, so in theory there’s a more accountability compared to TikTok (owned and operated by China).
TikTok is owned primarily by western investors and it's board is majority American. Usually I would be here to give the contrarian opinion that the government that is most likely to harm you is your own and that the majority of people would be better off with a non-cooperating country having your data. However, TikTok is just as likely to hand over user data to the US as Facebook is. It's the worst of both worlds.
It isn't fine for us. It might be fine for US politicians because Facebook is a US company subject to US laws.
I don't use neither. Not for security first, but rather because I can't find there something interesting for myself. Not my things.
to boil it down; "only our government gets to spy on us"
American Exceptionalism
That is it.
That is literally it.
Ugh please add /s so people take it as it is
U wot
First, Facebook isn't "fine" by any measure - That's what you call a false premise. Tiktok sees more scrutiny generally, initially because of rightful skepticism of a platform beamed into children's brains, with partial ownership by the authoritarian government of it's parent country.
That initial well-founded distrust, along with things like this early on, "TikTok memo directed censorship of users deemed ugly, overweight, or disabled, and banned users for livestreams that criticized governments" were then perpetuated by the lazy, ignorant blind racism from the American far right because they were tools to hate then by people like trump.
P.s. Here's that article
Tiktok is considered worse because it's involvement with a foreign government.
Sure but this seems to be a thing in many countries, not just the US. I live in Australia, so both of them are involved with "foreign" governments. In fact, most of the social media people here use is owned by foreign companies
I'm in Asia. I can't speak for everyone but the people I know distrust the CCP much more than the US government. Sure, the US is far from blameless, but at least over here the CCP has a much worse reputation. I guess that's one factor.
Another is more than a few people seem to think Meta is strictly a private company while tiktok is somehow being used/controlled by the Chinese government.
The difference is that TikTok is literally partially controlled by the Chinese communist government. Not just involved in, it's like partly owned by
For the purposes of data collection, the US basically isn't foreign for AU: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes
It's not, I don't use either of them.
I'm in my late 30s and nobody I know thinks Facebook is fine, including the few people I know that still use Facebook.
China is the enemy, therefore when they do it it's bad.
because USA is a hypocrite country
Xenophobia mostly. Facebook is not fine. Neither is google. None of it is.
All your data in those major providers gets vacuumed up directly by the NSA.
Yeah what made me so racist against the Chinese was reading about tiananmen square. Being cautious about an authoritarian government is definitely being a horrible bigot! /s
fb is evil
Tiktok is bad because it's Chineese, Facebook is 'good' because it's American.
Alas, that's all.
I used Facebook because everybody I know uses it. My wife and me are the 1st to delete that account, as we hate the constant tracking of Facebook. Alas, Google is even worse, but as Android user we're linked to that. I'm trying to minimize contact there as well, but it's hard with purchased apps and content.
For some strange reason having your own country or 'friendly' countries and their companies track you is 'good' and when less friendly countries or their companies do that it's 'bad'. When somewhat privacy minded, all tracking is bad.
When someone tels me they have nothing to hide, I'll ask if they would like a camera in their bathroom or bedroom, as they have nothing to hide. All say that's an unfair comparison, but it shows that there is nobody that has nothing they waht to keep private.
For me, US companies are even worse then the Chineese ones, as US companies will try to enforce US law and morals upon it's users. (But I don't trust either)
For the most part, I 90% agree with your stance. However, you can't take the statement "I have nothing to hide" literally to the extremes. That would be suggesting that the person is okay giving you the passwords for their bank accounts under the guide that they have nothing to hide.
It's a common colloquial expression which expresses how one accepts the situation as is. I've got nothing to hide doesn't mean that I then consent to a strip search or house search, those are uncomfortable and inconvenient. You can't always apply the same single justification to support multiple separate events, because you need the full context. Imagine "can I borrow a dollar? sure thing, you're my friend" Well whoops, you've now just given your friend complete reign over all your money for as long as the friend title exists
A more accurate interpretation here is "They're not collecting any information that I'm embarrassed about"
Sorry, language is messy and oftentimes there are differences between literal and intended meaning. I just wanted to point out why it is indeed, an unfair comparison. You can achieve your point without attacking someone's (as I argue) correct statement when taken in context, since your underlying point still stands that the majority of people have some limit of sharing information that they would not be comfortable with.
Nop . that's not what I meant. What I indicate with the camera in the bathroom is, would you trust the government to be able to watch to keep you safe and do a perfect job at keeping your data safe? Over here (Netherlands) it's even illegal for the government to fit camera's on spots where they can look into houses. (those video doorbells are illegal as well and a pest)
To use your anology, would you be at ease when your banking website is forced to use http instead of https because https is encryption and encryption is bad, so not allowed by your government. When you use encryption, you have something to hide (your banking password) and thus are a criminal. Would you accept that situation, knowing that either de government can collect all your data or a company or even worse, criminals?
When they collect 'all data', there is bound to be something you wouldn't want to share freely, say your banking password. (amongst others). People always have something to hide, even as simple as being in the street while picking your nose when a google maps car drives by (let alone kicing that nice neighbour while married).
Knowing that government/companies/criminals can take/gather information from/about you without telling you exactly what they do with it (even when you trust them enough to keep to their words) is bad.
When I ask you for your banking password it's your choice to either give it to me as you trust me (bad choice, but your choice). When companies entise you to give them access to all information they can gather (including your banking password) and then dowith it as they like takes away the choice.
Yep, language is messy (especially when the language used is not your main language), but I use the literal meaning to point out that everybody has something to hide. How they look underneath clothes is for most a pretty private detail they share with a limited group of people. Giving a company/government access to those details are generally accepted as bad, but most don't see data gathering as taking away privacy rights, as long as it's 'for a good cause'. Privacy should never be taken away from everybody because 'the cause is good' or given away easily (and no, neither tiktok or facebook are a good cause).
Everybody has something to hide, so it's everybody has the right for privacy. That right can be revoked under very specific curcomstances, but only when there is enough cause to suspect criminal behaviour.
I can't speak to the privacy aspect, but its at least possible to interact with Facebook in a less algorithmized way, especially if you turn off the news feed and just search for interests or visit grandma's page. Ticktock, from what I understand, just profiles you into boxes and proceeds to shovel a stream of swill into your trough until you are maximally isolated and radicalized in your echo chamber. I think it's crazy to trust either and I'm glad to see GenZ shunning FB a little more. I avoided Ticktock, but do have a Facebook account.
I think how you interact with the sites can effect ~perception~ of privacy.
Personally, I think they're all bad. the US is not nearly as bad as the CCP is, in regards to privacy and what they do with personal information. (the US might wish it had china's capability, though.) the CCP uses digital information to the extent of having an AI that watches everything you do- including CCTV recordings and everywhere you physically go; tracking what doors you use, in a broad surveillance campaign. (frequently, Uyghur Muslims are targets,).
They also have agents show up to live with you- if they think you're particularly... whatever...
China also uses the intel gleaned on TikTok to target people of interest; etc, and you're an idiot if you think TikTok's data it gleans on you doesn't go straight to the CCP. It also gets alot more information than you think- including other devices on your network, etc.
All that said; Meta/Facebook, twitter. Whoever. They're all selling their data to the CCP, too. and to the US. And to everyone else.
if you care about your data, the only real choice you have is to not use those services. at all.
You're a bigger idiot if you think US is not nearly as bad as the CCP. People actively avoid anything that's closely connected to CCP. Chinese products are considered poorly built by default and appsconsidered malware and all the propaganda around makes anyone cautious of getting a "Chinese" phone or anything. US has been caught numerous times with backdoors and NDA contracts with the social media networks.
Most people can avoid chinese tech companies and products by just looking at their brand names, US tech companies? not so much. Smartphones wouldn't work properly without connecting to Apple or Google networks. Android users can install ROMs but Apple is just damn useless for privacy (unless you swallow their blue pills wholesale).
Just because China is open about their surveillance network doesn't mean other countries aren't. Anytime US companies are found to be spying, it's "corporate shit" and "greed", or some numbnut would say "capitalism", but things like Government having a closed backdoor to everything, no one fucking bats an eye. Ever. and is swept under the rug. Double standards much?
Your arguments are just talking points you're fed that make you feel better about yourself. Fuck China and fuck USA. US has been fucking medling with countries worldwide with their surveillance and shaping narratives with social media companies to benefit itself. Going as far as to perpetuate genocide and violence among people, you guys fucking deserve Tiktok.
the US actively censors literally everything it's citizens see? (1, 2, 3, 4,)
The US dissappears it's own citizens if they rock the boat too much? (1, 2, 3)
It's hilarious that I more or less acknowledged that the US is also spying on it's citizens. The distinction is what the US then does about it. It doesn't make random kids dissappear because they likened Xi to Winnie the Poo. It doesn't make kids dissappear for criticizing the CCP, or even calling it's sitting president a mass murderer.
As for meddling in other people's business. Well, hate to break it to you, the only people not doing that wish they had the capability to do that. And you're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. Same goes with global surveillance. Same goes with meddling, too.
Welcome to the modern world, where there are no heroes. hope Xi remembers to pay you this week. I wouldn't be too loud if he forgets, though.
facebook is a US company and has a high incentive to reasonably adhere to US regulations and consumer protection laws, especially when it comes to US citizens. Tik-Tok is not a US company and is not incentivized to reasonably adhere to US regulations and consumer protection laws.
Both companies might share your information, but if you live in the US you would have SOME legal standing if a US company did something out of line with your data. If Tik-Tok decided to publicize all your messages I don’t imagine there is much you could do. If facebook did you could probably get a reasonable lawsuit going.
Meta/FB doesn't want anyone else sound what they do
Facebook is shit, but they're only shit for money. China wants to literally dominate the world.
One other reason that I'm surprised not to have seen anyone has already brought up is the degree of government involvement. There's the perception (whether it's true or not) that a business run in China is necessarily on the lookout for the government's best interests and possibly directly interfered with by the government. The same perception says that's not true in America, where the only time the government is involved is through direct known legislation & regulation, or via espionage operations done against the company's will. There's an absence of fear that, for example, the company will be manipulating its algorithm for the government's gain. (Instead, it's purely manipulated for the company's shareholders' gain, which is oh so much better, right? Right?)
How is the US a bastion of free speech???
Because boomers use Facebook.
I don't use either.
Facebook is not fine, no one is saying that, and because you're lying to say that's being said I stopped reading.
TikTok is bad because the Chinese government directly owns part of it and they are an insanely authoritarian and oppressive government. Do you really not know that?
I'm not lying, but if that's what you want to believe that's your prerogative my guy.
Who is saying Facebook is fine?
Facebook, obviously.
So this post is about the opinion of a corporation about itself?
That's because all those boomers don't use TikTok so it's easy for them to say that "it's bad and privacy invading". However, when you have to accept that the platform you rely on so much is bad, it's not so easy to say "it's bad and privacy invading".
WTF would you rely on tiktok/facebook for something (or anything)?
I rely on my phone to be able to call somebody (or emergency services) when I need to, I rely on my transport to get me where I need to go and I rely on the grocery stores to provide food (alas, garden is not ig enough to grow it myself)
Anything on internet is optional, very entertaining and fun, but optional.
TIL people born before 1985 are all boomers
Nop, Wikipedia shows that the term is dependent on the country and/orregion woth for the US being the '40-'50 the period, most ending tha boomer period before the '70s and fance being the only one as late as '73 to end that period.
That it's highly misused by the last generations as they don't understand the earlier ones. It would be just as bad to call everybody born after '65 milennial.
Yes I understand all this. I was being sarcastic
Coming from someone who uses neither currently but has used Facebook before, I think it's more to do with the fact that people are used to Facebook, Google and other companies collecting data. Facebook does a ton of lobbying to tell you just how much they value privacy.
Facebooks data policies are supposed to follow US law. As you already mentioned, I won't go any further on that. With a foreign country that isn't exactly super friendly with the US, they could use this same data against citizens. You have no real GDPR, or US privacy laws to protect you if China decides to target a diplomats family or whatever.
For most people, it's probably not going to affect you either way, but because data is something we really don't understand the full value of. As an Example, ethnic groups could be targeted and tiktok can be used as a data source.
With the whole Facebook being used to potentially manipulate elections, Tiktok could be as well and the US/other countries have even less they can do to stop it.
But a lot of the hate that you're seeing on the news is playing into China bad and not really casting light that they are okay with US companies collecting the same data. See: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/06/everything-we-know-about-facebooks-secret-mood-manipulation-experiment/373648/
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/17/brexit-voter-manipulation-eu-referendum-social-media
https://www.businessinsider.com/tiktok-censor-china-critical-content-uighur-uighurs-2020-11?op=1
Why is syphilis seen as infectious and bad, but herpes is fine?
Good analogy, but alas, both are to be avoided like the plague, covid,...
Because CHINA BAD even though they are an ocean apart from you and can't jail you like your own government.
America is not even my country, so yeah, bad and bad, as both are not companies from my country. (and even companies from here would be bad, my data, hands off)
TikTok China and Facebook USA
Obviously China bad