Many people do not grasp the sheer size of the disparity between the truly wealthy and everyone else.
They really think billionaires are like them, the only difference is that someone else goes to Walmart for them
Billionaires are like everyone else. That's the reason I don't look up to any. They're just as human as I am. No amount of money can ever make them anything else or anything more. They have access to an absurd degree, and they can afford far, FAR more, but they will never escape their base human nature. Almost anyone can be a billionaire. Some current billionaires prove that every moment they open their mouths.
Everyone poops.
Or they take capitalism as good and freedom as an axiom.
Most people will take "freedom" as an axiom, but how "freedom" is defined varies a lot. In a society where the commons are pretty much fully enclosed and you are homeless, the petite-bourgeois may very well be free, but you really aren't.
I believe your comments is just a paraphrase of: "They are being stupid"
In my opinion this is a very toxic way of thinking and does not try to understand the arguments "the other side" presents.
I don't think it's that bad-faith. I myself still find it positively mind-blowing to comprehend when the data is right in front of me.
Someone might equate wealth to hard work, but it hasn't really hit them, the real literal difference between 1 million dollars, and 1 billion, and then the news is talking about "trillionaires."
There's just no way to earn a billion dollars, to yourself, through honest work and by not exploiting others. And I think a lot of folks really don't realize this. They know that's a lot, but they might change their mind and realize how outrageous it is, when you present them with something like:
"Joe, you could get 3 more promotions and work 80 hours a week for 13 lifetimes and still not earn that much. Do you really think this is just petty jealousy at play?"
They might just change their mind.
But a lot of folks grew up in a time or place where people who ran the company started at the bottom, and it really needs to hit them hard that this just isn't reality anymore.
I assume they think they will be able to achieve the same status in the game that's designed to literally oppress them and make them think they are cared by the billionaires.
It's the American dream. What is the quote? We're all embarrassed potential millionaires?
That's why the "hustling culture" is so important and prevalent in our society right now.
Everyone "knows" someone that made bank with either youtube, selling some pyramid-scheme product, bitcoins, some collectibles, craft beer, lottery... you name it.
Social media (and before that was TV) is selling us the idea that there's a shortcut to becoming rich, you just need to find it, hustle, and you will become one of the rich persons.
That's also why there's so much cult of wealth and billionaires.
That said, a large portion of Millennials and after them have a rather negative view of billionaires and are rather skeptical of becoming rich, or even becoming home owners.
The worst one is Real Estate agent. Oh god I hate them so much.
Something like "Temporarily inconvenienced billionaires" I think?
I'll have you know I'm a millionaire with a cash flow problem.
This has been studied, and the ‘temporarily embarrassed millionaires’ idea is actually wrong.
The real reason is because some people (especially conservatives, because it’s a core part of conservative ideology) believe that in order for society to work, a hierarchy must be maintained wherein the ‘deserving’ are at the top, and everyone else is in their rightful place. Any threat to the natural hierarchy will undo the societal order and bring chaos and carnage.
This is why Obama becoming president was such an affront – because his presence outside his ‘rightful place’ was an existential threat to the natural order.
This belief has its roots way back when feudalism began to fail and the moneyed classes needed to find a new way to retain their power – both capitalism and conservatism were born at that time, with ideologies shifting from birthright to ‘earned’ status, which enshrined the haves and have-nots into literally sacred structures of meritocracy and social darwinism, and colonialists specifically fostered strict adherence to the social order. It became ingrained culturally that adhering to your station, whatever it is, is crucial for society to function. That there’s honour in being a cog in the machine, and that not accepting your lot in life is a danger to everyone. (eta: this is mostly subconscious, but you can see it if you ask ‘why’ enough times of someone who idolises Musk, for example. You’ll eventually whittle them down to these themes.)
That’s a nutshell view of a complicated topic, but these people don’t believe they’ll strike gold one day. They believe people who are rich deserve to be treated as kings, for the same reason monarchist peasants did.
Most commentators regard conservatism as a modern political philosophy, even though it exhibits the standpoint of paternalism or authority, rather than freedom. As John Gray writes, while liberalism is the dominant political theory of the modern age, conservatism, despite appealing to tradition, is also a response to the challenges of modernity. The roots of all three standpoints “may be traced back to the crises of seventeenth-century England, but [they] crystallised into definite traditions of thought and practice only [after] the French Revolution” (Gray 1995: 78)
I recommend reading the sources linked in that article, as well.
eta: It’s worth noting that societies worldwide often see a resurgence in conservatism in response to social change, crises, and civil rights movements, which are without fail a fear response to threats to the social hierarchy. We can see this in real time.
because they prefer to dream of themselves as billionaires in potentia. it's hard to admit you've been duped, especially when society gives you so many targets to punch down on.
A slave doesn't dream to be free, but to be a king
Well it's similar to what Churchill said about democracy... it's a bad system but it's better than all the others.
If you can put ideology aside and think in terms of economics, in many industries capitalism offers an efficient way of determining the an optimal price and quantity to produce considering the costs and value something brings. And it's something that allows for industries to function without an excessive amount of centralized planning which will often get things wrong.
But it's like a machine in a many ways. And like any machine it requires maintenance. Things like trust-busting, progessive taxation, regulations, and occasional stimulus are necessary to keep it running smoothly.
But once you bring ideology into it, it all becomes a shitshow. Some will argue capitalism is a perfect machine and any kind of maintenance on the machine will ruin it's perfection. Others take any kind of maintenance on the machine as a sign the machine will inevitably fail and needs to be replaced entirely. But then we go back to the beginning where other systems have been tried and they're worse. Charlatans, grifters, ideologues abound pushing people in every direct except for simply taking reasonable measures to keep the machine running smoothly. There's an almost religious devotion towards arguing the either the machine is perfect or the machine is doomed to failure and not only should be replaced they should accelerate the failure so it can be replaced sooner.
Zealots from all sides demonize the mechanics that are simply keeping things running. A lot of emotional nonsense about this thing. But to an economist, it's just a machine with both strengths and weaknesses. The functioning of the machine is well understood, and the other machines that have been tried didn't really work.
I think decentralization of power is a nice feature too. Billionaires are power centers outside of the government, judiciary, or military. They exist as a result of lax control on the markets by the government. In countries without capitalism and property rights, the billionaires are the government and the judiciary and the military. So, even though it might seem like nationalizing their wealth would decrease inequality, if there aren't good safeguards for decentralizing government power, it would result in a less equal society.
Part of the existence of billionaires is the ability to actually determine which money is theirs. In autocratic governments, you can't really say who owns what because you never know what the government might decide to take.
I don't defend billionaires, I think power should be spread more fairly, but eliminating them via the government needs to be done wisely in order to maintain decentralization.
Maintaining decentralization just allows for more centralization as markets coalesce into monopolist syndicates, better to centralize, make public property, and democratize.
The main argument is that that would not less to democratic control. Are there any historical examples where you have both democracy and violation of private property rights?
Cuba, the PRC, USSR, etc. All had large democratization of the economy compared to the fascist slaver system under Batista, the Nationalist Kuomintang, and the brutal Tsarist regime. Centralization doesn't inherently mean democratic control, but you can't have meaningful democratic input without control, and thus democratic output.
Again, decentralized market systems naturally result in the "better" firms monopolizing and outcompeting, this isn't something that can be meaningfully fought.
AES states have by no means been perfect democratic wonderlands, of course, but they have brought large democratization with respect to the level of development of the productive forces. I highly recommend reading the essay Why do Marxists Fail to Bring the "Worker's Paradise?" It takes 20 minutes and contextualizes the benefits and struggles of AES states. Socialism is often judged through a false, idealist lens, rather than an analysis of the actual material conditions and structures.
It was an interesting read and reminded me that democratic socialists arguing for restricted capitalism and communists are often arguing for similar goals with differing language.
Sort of. Communists don't want restricted Capitalism, they want to progress from Capitalism to Socialism.
In countries without capitalism and property rights, the billionaires are the government and the judiciary and the military.
In the US, they just have solidified a really good means of controlling it… I mean, the amount we don’t tax them, the super PACs we let them contribute to, and the control they have over our media are definitely forms of control that may not be “as bad” as other systems (arguably) but it seems like it’s really similar.
Many reasons. One major factor imho is the belief or illusion to be living in a meritocracy. Which would mean, that someone who's rich has to have earned it and therefore criticism must stem from envy or jealousy. The same belief fuels the ideology of thinking of poor people to just be lazy leeches on society.
The idea of meritocracy is such a bullshit lie it's laughable. We need it so our children don't live in a world without hope but much like santa claus they should shed the idea around the time of college. There are merit based reward systems. Ladder climbing is real. Only, many of them are corrupted by politics and mismanagement. Even if you succeed in an isolated merit based system it's only to incentivize more production and you will never reach the level of CEO or what ever.
What we should teach young adults is that life is a lottery inside a lottery inside a lottery. Success is about increasing your odds by taking as many smart bets as you can. Bets where the reward is great and where you don't have much at stake if you lose. Betting with other people's money is the most efficient way of extracting value. The meritocracy isn't real, so neither is the morals around it. If you want nothing but an easy life this is how you do it. If your can't in good conscious gamble with other people's livelihoods we will see you on the ladder.
temporarily embarrassed billionaires
Richard Nixon's head : I promise to cut taxes for the rich and use the poor as a cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel!
[audience applauds]
Philip J. Fry : That'll show those poor!
Turanga Leela : You're not rich!
Philip J. Fry : But someday I might be rich, and people like me better watch their step
Because propaganda is effective.
Many don't even do it intentionally, they just don't grasp concepts like Historical and Dialectical Materialism, which requires reading lengthy books to fully grasp. They may be anti-Capitalist at heart, but without a solid understanding of theory they play into bourgeois hands.
There's also the fact that the ideas held by society are a reflection of the Mode of Production.
Pretty sure they'd take everything you just wrote and say, "that sounds like critical race theory, which Jesus said was bad."
Sure. The de-industrialization of America has been devastating for class awareness.
What de industrialization?
US is second largest industrial output and it has been rising.
Unless you mean jobs after NAFTA and code changes... Which is true but manufacturing employment is on the rise post covid reforms
The US shifted the vast majority of its production overseas, which is why it's seen as a "service economy."
US did offshore no doubt but it was not a vast majority. You can check the numbers, there was some decline in employment but US has high tech factories and industrial base is now growing quickly even with job growth since covid.
The reason it is largely a service economy is due to growth in service sector after industrialization. Once people got all their needs with goods met, they started buying service.
Think about all the food joints we have now for example. This is fairly recent thing. Sure food out always existed but not like this.
Also, people have god walkers, people buy insurance etc all this is kinda recent in big picture thing
I am aware of the process, the US produces the vast majority of its commodities oversees before "finishing" or "assembling" in the US. It's Imperialism in action, where it hyper-exploits the Global South for super-profits.
Right but we started this here with claim that US de industrialized which I saying is not accurate and it is a common misconception thrown around.
It reversed industrialization and shifted internationally.
Industrialization in the US was not reversed, out has been grown even pre covid.
That's my entire point here. This can be easily verified too.
Trends.
It doesnt even require that much reading of such subjects. All it takes is to not be brainwashed by media and politicians.
Critical thought and self awareness is all it takes
I'm sorry, but I entirely disagree. Dialectical and Historical Materialism are incredibly far-removed from standard American discourse and takes quite a bit to understand, oversimplifying it is dangerous. If all it took to be a Marxist-Leninist was critical thought and self-awareness, the US would have had a proletarian revolution already.
Usually it's my friend Cowbee here who tells people to read things, but here I will:
"Brainwashing" is a reactionary myth (that originally comes from orientalist stories of Chinese hypnosis that were used to explain-away defectors in the Korean war) that is used to position the believer in a position superior to the masses ("sheeple"), and which only knows how to treat the latter condescendingly as blind followers of this or that, which is not how you do mass organizing if you want to succeed.
Should be mandatory reading, thanks for posting it!
People who defend billionaires either have a vested interest, have actually bought that they're 1000x smarter than normal people, or have some (possibly vague) abstract moral position that overrules the basic idea of fairness. Often it's more than one.
Capitalism, as the term is commonly used, is poorly defined enough that you have to specify what it means here. Is it any kind of market? Is it large corporations? Is it every interaction being purely voluntary (somehow)? If you consider a big Soviet firm like Gosbank a "corporation", all three could also be socialist depending on who you ask.
Since this is .ml, for the classical Marxist definition that it's "private ownership of the means of production", the arguments are mainly against the proposed alternatives, or just that private vs. personal is hard to demarcate, and nobody wants to share a toothbrush.
I guess the central premise of capitalism is that while every society has its haves and have nots, capitalism is supposed to encourage the haves to invest in the economy rather than hoarding their wealth. In return, they stand to get even wealthier, but a stronger economy ought to generate more employment and generally improve the lives of commoners as well.
Unfortunately, in a never-ending quest to make wealth-generation more efficient and streamlined, employment is being eliminated through automation, outsourcing, etc. and the system is eating itself out from the inside. I doubt it can persist much longer, but what will replace it remains unclear. I pray that it will be something sensible that ensures everyone has their basic needs met and can still find rewarding pursuits in life. But there are so many ways it could go very wrong, and that includes staying on the current course.
I guess the central premise of capitalism is that while every society has its haves and have nots, capitalism is supposed to encourage the haves to invest in the economy rather than hoarding their wealth. In return, they stand to get even wealthier, but a stronger economy ought to generate more employment and generally improve the lives of commoners as well.
Nitpicky, but that's the premise of Liberalism, not Capitalism. Capitalism emerged not because it was an idea, but an evolution in Mode of Production. Liberalism is the ideological justification.
Unfortunately, in a never-ending quest to make wealth-generation more efficient and streamlined, employment is being eliminated through automation, outsourcing, etc. and the system is eating itself out from the inside. I doubt it can persist much longer, but what will replace it remains unclear. I pray that it will be something sensible that ensures everyone has their basic needs met and can still find rewarding pursuits in life. But there are so many ways it could go very wrong, and that includes staying on the current course.
Have you read Marx? He makes the case that due to Capitalism's tendency to centralize and form monopolist syndicates with internal planning, the next mode of production is Socialism, ie public ownership and planning of the syndicates formed by the market system.
Unfortunately many of us have been taught that being a good person and a good citizen equals being productive and accumulating resources. Things that are quantifiable and external to the actual person and their relationships.
Being productive and accumulating some resources can be good activities to spend time on, but they are practical necessities and not defining characteristics of existence.
Propaganda
Because it's in their personal interests to perpetuate capitalism
Because liberal ideology is hegemonic and it is what most people have been raised to believe
Plenty of other reasons why people hold the political beliefs they hold, surely it's obvious that there are many ways that someone can arrive at a belief system
Your username on a post about capitalism makes me giggle
You mean our post.
Yes comrade.
I like how these pretty neatly map to the three I gave for defending billionaires, even though they're worded very differently and probably thought of completely independently. We even ordered them the same way.
People who defend billionaires either have a vested interest, have actually bought that they’re 1000x smarter than normal people, or have some (possibly vague) abstract moral position that overrules the basic idea of fairness. Often it’s more than one.
I suppose the 1000x smarter thing isn't the only propaganda reason given, but I'd say meritocracy is by far more pronounced than inherent property rights or red-baiting in today's mainstream media. People who go with the latter two tend to learn it through personal connections.
Because the average person doesn't have any real time to think deeply about politics. They believe whatever big media tells them. Some also can't understand how evil someone people can get.
"Surely the basic logic of how things work must be very consistent in order to have such a large and prosperous country like the USA. I don't understand it. Probably because I'm missing something not because it's fundamentally flawed"
Because the average person doesn't have any real time to think deeply about politics.
Because the economic elites have engineered it that way.
They flooded the workplace with double the workers (both men and women), thereby depressing wages and forcing both parents to become wage earners to survive. Then, with both parents working outside the house, childcare and chores sucked up all available free time, and even more household costs went towards outside help (daycares, etc.).
Then they began a tradition of kicking children out of the house when they became adults, thereby putting strain on infrastructure and increasing the demand for housing.
Then they began a push for higher education, thereby saddling young adults with ridiculous amounts of debt at the point of their lives when they could least afford to shoulder said debt.
All this makes us extremely time poor and resource poor, such that we cannot afford the head space to consider anything beyond where we put the next step or two that we make. As a society, the common man becomes far too busy just treading water to be concerned about in which direction they should swim.
As such, most people take massive amounts of cognitive shortcuts, relying far too much on things spoon-fed to them from the very news sources that should be unbiased and impartial, but which are nearly always owned by the Parasite Class, which favour deeply regressive conservative policies that benefit only themselves at the expense of the common person.
And most people don’t think deeply not because they cannot be bothered to think for themselves, but rather because they have far too much on their plate to afford to do so. They quite literally would mentally burn out if they were to do so.
It's impressive that someone engineered the last century of economic history. That's some Palpatine level engineering!
Our retirement is tied to it.
my retirement is non-existent
Maybe you should be working to fix that.
working on it, I've taken upon myself the eat the rich way of thinking and planning. however, after their wealth is distributed, retirement doesn't work without an ever increasing population, does it?
This is the answer, right here
Liberalism, its propaganda, and its consequences. Also a severe lack of class consciousness and knowledge of political theory.
I think more important than that, is the reason for liberalism, which is the base, ie the Mode of Production.
The Post apocalyptic nature of alot of media makes me think that people can more easily Imagine the fall of human civilization then we can a better world where everyone's needs are met.
To the 1%, losing all your wealth and power be an apocalypse, so it is in their best interests that everyone would be thinking the same as well. No matter how much better we all would be together otherwise.
We’re raised by parents that must be obeyed for our own safety. Some people eventually learn to accept their parents are imperfect people and not gods. Many people do not. They look to kings and gods to protect and provide for them.
Those that have power negotiate with kings and gods. People without power attempt to use the only techniques they know to negotiate with their kings and gods: begging and/or pledging loyalty and service in exchange for scraps.
Of course this is but one of many reasons many people worship power.
It's not because they think they can be billionaires, it's because they've been taught (and in a minority of cases this is true) that they are better off going after the crumbs that billionaires leave them than trying some other system.
Because my country, Ukraine, was under communists and it was not good time with all genocides, holodomor, repressions, red terrors and other things. Because good life under communists had only people from nomenclature.
And I didn't say nothing about censorship. Under censorship you'll not create good music, good meals, good products, good communities. All things will be under control of old guys from communist party
In Ireland we suffered under British Imperialism and capitalism for hundreds of years and we had our own famine and repressions.
Fact that us often ignored in Anglo world... Or when it is brought up... This oppression is different 🤡
Wow but under communists you will be killed by Irish person, not British :) and not for a reason that you are Irish, but for a reason that you are listening songs from another country or reading books, that was not accepted by censorship ;)
If censorship in Soviet Ukraine is your reason for defending capitalism, don't let it go over your head that such things happened and continue to happen in capitalist countries and colonies too.
for a reason that you are listening songs from another country or reading books, that was not accepted by censorship
Man are you going to have a wild time reading the First Act of Supremacy of 1534 from the United Kingdom. Couple of follow up bangers from it like the Act of Supremacy in Ireland of 1560. All that happening distinctly before communism was even invented.
Again, authoritarian, not communism.
You really to get yourself educated my friend
Typical communists still criticize me for my opinion, but give them power, they would shoot me on the spot without a trial, as in the times of the Red Terror :) in a typical communist country there can be no protests, which is confirmed by the case of China and Tiananmen Square
Buddy im not even communist, i am still for capitalism.
Your criticism is given to you because of how ridiculous you sound when you regurgitate the same old propaganda that you watch on social media.
Its so obvious that these thoughts were not formed by you
Echo chambers suck, I'm sorry. It's assbackwards when people dismiss real, lived experiences that don't align with what they optimistically imagine those experiences would be like.
So your describing surveillance capitalism
That's how I see how Zuckerberg sends your grandfather to Siberia for lack of work and unwillingness to work, as it happened with my grandfather :) Don't you think that you are exaggerating (so far) the level of problems in your country? All these problems of listening to you for the sake of selling goods are trifles compared to what any radical-communist-nazi who dares to power will do
Ok if we go off of that example, explain how exactly a so called communist country will exclusively force people to something against their will? What youre describing is closer to authoritarian government..
Nazis are not communist at all, they are facists. Youve been watching too much bullshit news from people who dont have a elementary clue of political science. This is why you cant even give a good clear answer as to why youre defending billionaires and surveillence capitalism.
Under censorship you’ll not create . . . good meals
Are you saying that the Soviets censored recipes?
Yes. Food in the shop had a bad quality with a permanent deficit. Big amount of good food in modern country is making by a small business
This could be a language barrier thing, but it sounds like you're talking about a production issue, not a censorship issue.
okay, despite the cultural and resource diversity, what prevented then in the Soviet Union from making normal food en masse for people like sushi or even shawarma? Why was there only sausage and chebureks, buns, vodka, beer everywhere? Because there is an order to do so and there is a chain of manufacturers, there was no initiative from below, although the country was supposed to be for the people. Due to the size of the state apparatus for serving the population, any initiative was lost. In the end, everything was done only when the old grandfather wanted to show off in front of the West :) there is nothing made of high quality in the Soviet Union, except for missiles that were sold to other countries to shoot at people :) and everything that served the military industry.
I'm going to avoid touching the rest of that and say that a centralized production not making sushi or shawarma is not the same as censoring those things. You can still make them at home, it's not like fish, rice, and seaweed were beyond the reach of the existing production. Again, it sounds like a production issue.
and the main reason for the deficit was preparation for the war, not the desire to make people's lives in the country better. Nothing prevented the Soviet Union with the Communists at its head from being an ally before the war with the Germans, attacking Poland together and attacking Finland, suppressing protests in Czechoslovakia and Hungary
I'm really struggling to follow some of this. Are you saying the Soviets didn't need to fight Germany and didn't need to take as much time as they could manage to prepare to do so?
The problem is that they were allies of Germany until Germany attacked them :) and they also wanted to conquer all of Europe, not just preparing to defend their own territory
I chose to avoid most of the bait so far, even with those cloying :)s that you like adding so much, but this one is too disgusting. It's historical revisionism pure and simple that they were ever "allies" with Germany. They had a treaty to try and stall German invasion, but they never imagined things would go otherwise than one party defeating the other (though they did underestimate how soon the Germans would attack).
Okay :) but everything was in deficit :) and this is not a production problem :) this is a problem of sick heads in power and a complete lack of empathy for the country's citizens :) in relations between people, the deficit created corruption, with which Ukraine still has big problems. A habit was created to solve all cases not according to the law. People could not travel abroad without a large number of certificates and the personal permission of the local head of the party. Soviet engineers, having good talents, proposed different concepts of cars that were very modern, but the local leadership said no to any initiative from below. It was easier for them to simply copy Western equipment, or buy Western equipment and pass it off as their own, as Russia is doing now under sanctions. Now, under capitalism, you can protest and at most they will give you something like a fine for hooliganism. Under the Soviet Union and the Communists, there were no protests, or if there were, people were sent to Siberia, and their families were dismissed from their positions, and they had a label in front of state bodies that their family was unreliable. And the journalists did not say anything about it under the pressure of censorship, not even a hint. People learned all the information about the protests only after the collapse of the Soviet Union. And something similar happens in any country that wants to build communism. People become communists in their eyes, often not for the sake of making the world better, but for the sake of getting back at a system in which they are marginalized and losers
Not sure why you've got downvoted, but that's the reason why all Baltic states had such a reaction when the invasion started.
That said, I would say that most of those states are highly socialistic despite having pretty much allergy to anything red and while preferring a capitalist system that doesn't mean they want or support billionaires.
It could be because they arent even describing communism. These problems are easily found right now.
The problem here is that people dont even know what communism is and they end up giving these kinds of answers. Makes you think thats probably why they made a new account
Theres no genuine convo of why communism is bad.
It's more because it's a bunch of random assertions, falsehoods, misunderstandings, half-truths, and more with no substance to tackle and respond to without starting a lengthy struggle session.
The USSR absolutely was guided by Communist ideology, and was Socialist, that's true. It's also true that it wasn't perfect. A good article to read is Why do Marxists Fail to Bring the "Worker's Paradise?" because many people don't understand Marxism and interpret it through an idealist, anti-Marxist lens. The article is pro-Marxist-Leninist, and anti-ultraleftist, and attempts to highlight the impossibilities of establishing an idealized form of Socialism through fiat, without strong development of the productive forces and centralization.
Centralization = corruption
Explain. You cannot achieve democratic control without centralization, because you can't have inputs with no output.
Issue of centralization is regime and politics agnostic. More centralization just results in more corruption.
I am not sure how to run the society any other way but we know that current systems are corrupted by the ruling elites at our expense.
Legal system is unwilling to deal with it because the judiciary are just regime lapdogs used against working people when they get out of line.
Issue of centralization is regime and politics agnostic. More centralization just results in more corruption.
Again, please explain. This doesn't logically follow.
I am not sure how to run the society any other way but we know that current systems are corrupted by the ruling elites at our expense.
Capitalism is, Socialism isn't.
Legal system is unwilling to deal with it because the judiciary are just regime lapdogs used against working people when they get out of line.
In Capitalism, yes.
Have you read Marx?
If you are big daddy owner, centralized state permits you to have access to the top guy who can do anything.
It is a lot easier to corrupt one guy, then it is to do one guy in every state for example is the logic here.
This is inherent defect of centralization. Sure we can get a lot of shit done effectively if everybody is good faith actor. And progress has been made but it was done with a ton of grift that we just accept
Capitalism and socialism are economic system for property. We are talking about the state in of itself here.
I would posit the issue not economic system choice but rather corruptions of the ruling class.
I bet any properly set up system would work as long as it was designed to work properly.
If you notice the best systems we currently have are actually a mix of both.
There is a strong correlation between quality of life of the working class and corruption.
Countries with low corruption are able to deliver high quality of life because they don't a lot of blatant looting.
I bet this will be the down fall of the US empire, the parasite class taking too much and it is causing serious social issues for Americans. They know something is wrong bit they jerk politics without realizing it is a futile exercise.
If you are big daddy owner, centralized state permits you to have access to the top guy who can do anything.
It is a lot easier to corrupt one guy, then it is to do one guy in every state for example is the logic here.
This is inherent defect of centralization. Sure we can get a lot of shit done effectively if everybody is good faith actor. And progress has been made but it was done with a ton of grift that we just accept
This isn't really accurate, though, this is just an argument against democracy. Recall elections are standard Marxist practice, which pretty much eliminates this problem outright. It seems like you haven't engaged with Marxist organizational theory.
Capitalism and socialism are economic system for property. We are talking about the state in of itself here.
They are always present linked. You can't divorce them, the Base creates and supports the Superstructure.
I would posit the issue not economic system choice but rather corruptions of the ruling class.
This is generally unfounded.
I bet any properly set up system would work as long as it was designed to work properly.
You can't "design" a system, that's utopianism.
If you notice the best systems we currently have are actually a mix of both.
No, the best systems currently are Socialist. There are no "mixes." Or, at least, everything is a mix, no system has made it to Communism yet, but the best systems are run along Marxist lines.
There is a strong correlation between quality of life of the working class and corruption.
Countries with low corruption are able to deliver high quality of life because they don't a lot of blatant looting.
I bet this will be the down fall of the US empire, the parasite class taking too much and it is causing serious social issues for Americans. They know something is wrong bit they jerk politics without realizing it is a futile exercise.
This is more correlation and not causation.
Because my country, Ukraine, was under communists and it was not good time with all genocides, holodomor, repressions, red terrors and other things
Yes, but none of that is unique to communism, that's just corrupt government. Anywhere that develops systemic inadequacies and a culture of impunity can instantly become such. That's just something that is independent of the underlying system of economics. Like many capitalist systems like to point out that bourgeoisie who are after their own interest act as some check on the government who is usually in a power struggle for control. And that power struggle is what ensures no one side wins out.
But there's nothing technically stopping the rich from becoming the actors of the government and when we as a society excuse profiteering in office, well then there's no barrier from the rich just becoming the government. Which that's just the French ancien régime that ultimately lead to the French Revolution.
So it's NOT specific to just communism. It's just that's the most recent and easiest one to point out because of how blatant/brazen that system had become with it's corruption. Even with all of the "nay-saying" that might happen with United States detractors with their usual hum of "Oh well they're all corrupt!" Even with how passive some are with it, the corruption is nowhere near the level of being out in the open that was with the USSR. Politicians still weasel their way around because they know that there's still some bottom level of ensuring checks on that corruption that exist. And we have those checks not because we are a capitalist society.
I think the idea that some economic system promotes some civic purity or prevents some form of government corruption is a bad linking of things that ought not be linked, because a pure capitalist society doesn't magically inherit some barrier of corruption. That barrier has to be formed independent of the underlying economic system.
I'm not trying to detract from what happened under the USSR but that has way more to do with how power got consolidated post World War I and everything that lead to the toppling of the Russian Monarchy. The system of communism played a role in that consolidation of power, yes, but literally any tool could have been used if you have someone with the mindset of Vladimir Lenin who wanted to rapidly consolidate power during the Bolshevik revolution. I mean look at the current Myanmar Civil War and some of the ideas of General Min Aung Hlaing, no need for implementation of communist ideology there, he just wants to be in power, doesn't believe that the current transfer of power is legitimate, and is willing to get a lot of people killed in proving that point.
I think given the current situation in the United States, the belief that you NEED communism to have totalitarianism is a dangerous linking of things that can actually happen independent of each other. You just need someone to wear down government legitimacy enough to start a civil war, that's all you need. Everything else is just tools at your disposal to get that goal done.
So you have to understand the nuance here I'm trying level. I'm not saying it WASN'T COMMUNISM, what I'm saying is that it can be communism, but ultimately you just need someone who wants to consolidate power rapidly and exists in a society that will forgive abuses of power enough, sometimes that's done by de-legitimizing the current system enough. That's it, that's all that's required. Communism can play a role in that somewhere, but it doesn't have to.
About defending capitalism (and not billionaires - who more often than not abuse this system). Some of us lived in other systems. And we understand any other system is way way way way worse.
There are however a lot of problems with capitalism and should be held on a very short leash. Or else monopoly happens.
The most effective actions to keep capitalism at bay: strong anti-trust laws, strong worker protection (this includes a lot of stuff), wealth tax.
And be aware there are many flavours of calitalism. Most commonly people in USA are the most extreme where you have really "long leash". And people see such capitalism as failing and want to replace whole system.
There are however a lot of problems with capitalism and should be held on a very short leash. Or else monopoly happens.
The most effective actions to keep capitalism at bay: strong anti-trust laws, strong worker protection (this includes a lot of stuff), wealth tax.
Capitalism eats the leash, you can't avoid this.
As the above commenter mentioned it is possible to stop it eating the leash so to speak.
The main problem is keeping all of those protections actually in place. We don’t seem to want to codify worker rights or anything else important to the constitution.
Follow the trends. People didn't stop wanting rights, Capitalism exists in constant decay as it grows, eroding worker rights due to outsized Capitslist power.
You can only stop Capitalism from eating its leash if you stop time, as long as systems remain in motion they will trend in natural directions, for Capitalism that is centralization.
Correct!
Stick a finger up its butt and the leash will get spit back out? I think I read that somewhere, not sure if it works.
This is simply not true. And whole EU is doing this more or less effectively.
But your government has to be very very careful since this sure can happen.
In recent years we have seen degradation of this leash. But EU commission started keeping up with global monopolies.
I believe also in USA they are making some antitrust changes after a few decades of sleeping.
In recent years we have seen degradation of this leash.
Proving me correct.
Read all my statements again. And apply strict mathematic logic.
Few years of degradation of antitrust laws and some effective reforms in this year alone does not in any way prove your point.
It absolutely does. Follow the trends and the mechanisms.
I think the "temporarily embarrassed millionaire" idea is overstated, most people I interact with have a somewhat negative outlook on the economy and their future wealth.
I think the real issue is that no viable alternative is presented to most people.
The alternatives presented are Russian-style authoritarian oligarchy, Islamofascism, or a Venezuela-style "socialism" in which the narrative only focuses on poverty.
The PRC is absolutely a viable alternative, it's a Socialist Market Economy that has been steadily transfering Private Property into Public Property as markets coalesce into monopolist syndicates, which are then capable of central planning.
They have the most wild form of capitalism there is. And they married it with a lot of corruption and zero political freedom.
This is not an alternative. Please.
They have a Socialist Market Economy, and married it to a Dictatorship of the Proletariat following whole-process people's democracy. One of the focuses of Xi's presidency has been anti-corruption, along with steady socialization of the private sector. Read Socialism Developed China, Not Capitalism. You have an ultra-idealist vision of Socialism that is anti-Marxist. Private property is socialized by degree, not decree!
Yes I have seen you in other comments.
And we both know what is the actual state and level of freedom, poverty, and capitalism and corruption in China.
Maybe organize a protest in China.
I know you like their system, but for some reason you fail to see issues with their system.
I fail to see the issues you imagine replicated in reality. Leave your mind palace.
Agreed. You can't argue with how effective it's been for the country as a whole, but I don't think i'd rather live there as an individual.
I would not live there. I value freedom and privacy.
(In a healthy European way)
"I have an uncle who smoked whole life and is 98 years old"
I am sure you know what you have been doing when you presented your "evidence".
Not cool.
I've re-read this several times and I still don't have the slightest clue to what you're referring to, lib. It's clear-as-day that you're just another "They hate us for our freedom" folks and don't actually care about freedom or privacy for all.
(I am contemplating whether your are just trolling me and I should stop participating in this debate. But lets assume you really did not understood my point.)
You typed in google something like "EU failing privacy/democracy/freedom" and posted top results. And all those cases are real, but are cherry picked. Therefore I responded with a classical argument about why smoking is "not bad for your health". https://www.logicalfallacies.org/anecdotal.html
Your results did not include any actual indexes or aggregation of the data.
EU countries are by far most free and private. Yes of course with their own issues but still way better than any other country.
China is awful regarding this topic.
So why I had a problem with your response:
I strongly believe you already knew the above two facts. You just decided to ignore them and presented me with some problems eu has so you can win the argument. So... I do not like you tried to "win argument" with a logical fallacy which is counterproductive for the debate.
And when we just throw random arguments so opposing point of view comes out as bad, everyone comes out a little more radical in their view and noone changes their opinion. And I spent some time writing those comments (not with research but by forming thoughts and sentences in my second language). By turning the debate to this "Facebook like arguing" you destroyed my effort to participate in this community.
Also in response to your latest accusation:
I specifically told you I have a healthy relationship with freedom, and "they hate us for our freedom" does not belong in this category.
I think the real issue is that no viable alternative is presented to most people.
As Marx said, "the ideas of ruling class are the ruling ideas"
The alternatives presented are Russian-style authoritarian oligarchy, Islamofascism, or a Venezuela-style “socialism” in which the narrative only focuses on poverty.
Funnily enough you are proof of your previous statement above. The ruling class is presenting any, both better or worse alternatives to you in such form that you immediately dismiss them.
What gave you the idea that I'm dismissing them? I think you're confused.
Good quote tho
What gave you the idea that I’m dismissing them?
You, you said "Russian-style authoritarian oligarchy, Islamofascism, or a Venezuela-style “socialism” in which the narrative only focuses on poverty."
This is blatantly false. And you don't even know what the alternatives are or aren't. Russia isn't an systemic alternative, it's the very same capitalist as in west, just 100 years late and too late to develop imperialism, it's only a political alternative which forced them, after over 2 decades of trying to join the capitalist core, to finally oppose it. Islamofascism is such a fucking blatant Bush-era propaganda that i won't even comment on that nonsense. Venezuela don't even have socialism, again it's not an alternative, it's a capitalist economy which was forced into politically opposing capitalist core because of over century of brutal exploitation by that core.
All three examples your presented are the same narration (even more extreme in case of islam) than the billionaire owned western media oligopoly and their political arms like US DoS spreads. You don't try to know more (some of examples are in this very thread, and the actual alternatives like China too), you dismiss them in the exact manner the capitalist core ruling class wants you.
My friend, you are still confused.
I was giving the framing that comes from the billionaire owned western media oligopoly position.
that isnt my position
So you do not believe those? Could you elaborate what you think is the alternative for billionaires and especially capitalism?
They believe that the status quo is better than any alternatives. They have not been exposed to other ways of living and those that have lock themselves to basic tribalistic thinking.
Imagine trying to get a sports fan to see the benefits of being a fan of another sports team. Even if they aren’t personally playing and their team isn’t winning they maintain loyalty. Some even bet on their loser teams and lose money just because of loyalty.
It’s all about team loyalty/ tribalism
Excellent answer and I'll also jump off this to say this applies to marginalized groups just as much as anyone else, in a way I see a lot of people forget all about. Some percentage of marginalized people, through being in the right place and/or putting themselves there, do experience upward mobility through capitalism and therefore identify with it.
People forget that queer conservatives exist, but think about a gay couple with a lot of wealth, living a fairly standard nuclear family existence with an adopted kid or two, integrated into a society that probably still doesn't fully trust them but sees enough signifiers of "normality" that they're willing to let it slide. Which side of the political divide benefits them the most to align with? And what ideological principles will they come to internalize in the long term? Might they come to see themselves as somehow different or better than others in their marginalized community?
I'm getting tired of the fluff pieces expressing shock at the fact that some % of black voters are conservative, clutching their pearls at the thought of that number increasing, and speculating about black churches and "social conservatism." While also completely disregarding the fact that black voters have always leaned left yet are also affected by some of the same political shifts that every other demographic is. Our first loyalty is generally to our class.
Conditions here were deplorable by any objective measure. And if you'll recall, one of the hallmarks of early Russian industrialization was: the workforce was often transient. People moved back and forth between their home villages and jobs in the cities, and this flux meant that the places people lived and where they ate and bathed and got medical attention were only ever temporary expedients. It was a bit like you were going off to some particularly crappy summer camp. It was only meant to be temporarily endured, not lived in full time, and so conditions just never got better. People were not just renting rooms; they were renting corners of rooms. You could rent not just a bed, but part of a bed. Sanitation was, of course, practically non-existent, and the food was disgusting. The work itself, meanwhile, was long and grueling. There were no safety standards in the factories. There were hardly any rights for anybody at all. And pay was literally inadequate. The ministry of finance itself surveyed conditions and concluded that a family of four needed about fifty rubles a month to purchase basic necessities (that is, food and shelter and heat) and then they found that 75% of the workers were making less than 30 rubles a month. The economic and moral math was just not adding up.
The lower skilled, less educated, and still mentally "peasant" workers tended to remain culturally conservative. They were orthodox christian and believed strongly in the divine benevolence of the czar. And indeed one of the things reported by both social democrats and SRs back to their respective central committees was that they struggled to recruit among these workers because they were out there pitching "overthrowing the czar" and everyone was like "What? We... we love the czar, and he loves us too!"
To them, the czar was not a villain, but a hero. Not the devil, but their savior. It understandably made recruiting for a political revolution to overthrow their "hero and savior" very difficult.
Which is why the conservative mandate is to defund education and keep people as ignorant as possible.
I mean, to keep the common man as ignorant as possible -- the children of the elites will always go to prohibitively expensive Montessori schools, which will better prepare them for critical thinking and bullshit detection so that they may better rule over and parasitize off the common man.
They sold a lottery ticket to the population and made it look like 99% of you can win when the odds are rigged like a gambling machine. Everybody would defend a gambling machine as “fair and balanced” with enough indoctrination. “The American Dream” was when everybody could afford everything on minimum wage but capitalism is a short term oriented goal where for profit is the only actual mission. Tell me how many people can be sacrificed for it and I would say everybody as climate change has proven and a trillion dollar industry has shown. These climate change activists are stupid enough to think they can take down big corporations with wallets older than some of them. Never in a million years as long as capitalism exists. Imagine 112 years of sitting on their asses and not until 10-20 years ago they decided to use tweezers to put some pressure on them. Now that the whole world is about to be changed completely and irreversibly they want to stop it. It’s basically a cancerous economy that only festers at the top of the economy sucking everything around it until theirs nothing left but the cancer.
The American Dream” was when everybody could afford everything on minimum wage but capitalism
Everybody except blacks of course...
Gold age of America wasn't golden for everybody.
And after civil rights the regime punished the whites for siding with the blacks. So now we are all field ******
Don’t even get me started. Black people or minorities and America is top 10 worst duet. Richard Nixon ruined every generation afterwards and all of this modern day shitshow started festering with a strong back. We go backwards enough and slavery was abolished but the hatred just grew stronger and had a great foundation.
because they arent the ones being stripped of their livelihoods to fatten the moneypigs
I think it's like the old trope of asking a fish how the water is and they reply "what's water?"
I think you know why. Is this a real question or are you just fishing?
I genuinely want to know from those that defend them.
Pretty sure its fishing.
Lack of successful alternatives? It's easy to find flaws with capitalism but every other system has its share of problems too.
Socialism is the successful successor to Capitalism. Socialism isn't an idea you implement, but a consequence of markets coalescing into monopolist syndicates that make themselves ripe for public ownership and planning.
This is the case only if you believe in Marx
What do you disagree with here? The idea that markets trend towards monopolist syndicates, naturally centralizing production? Or the idea that the Proletariat should sieze these syndicates and plan production democratically and centrally?
I'm not really disagreeing with you to be honest. I'm only saying that your views are the central idea of Marxism. Only Marxists believe in the conflict theory. I'm not a Marxist, but i do think socialism is the next most likely economic stage considering the current capitalist landscape. Whether it is the best path is what i don't know.
I'm a Marxist-Leninist, correct, but the point of Marxism is that it doesn't matter what individuals believe, Capitalism itself paves the way for Socialism just like Feudalism paved the way for Capitalism.
Hmm i don't know about that. Saying that this one theory explains social change is kinda restrictive. There are other valid ideas that aren't the conflict theory that might also result in social change. Think of idealist theories such as Hegel's dialectical process which involves a thesis and antithesis. These theses eventually contradict each other to form a synthesis which eventually becomes its own thesis and vice versa.
I just like to keep an open mind about this stuff, as i don't think social change boils down to just one theory.
I find this reply very strange because it's the core point of Marxism that it's dialectical but materialist. It has a lot of forebears, but Hegel is the most direct and obvious of them.
This new German philosophy culminated in the Hegelian system. In this system — and herein is its great merit — for the first time the whole world, natural, historical, intellectual, is represented as a process — i.e., as in constant motion, change, transformation, development; and the attempt is made to trace out the internal connection that makes a continuous whole of all this movement and development. From this point of view, the history of mankind no longer appeared as a wild whirl of senseless deeds of violence, all equally condemnable at the judgment seat of mature philosophic reason and which are best forgotten as quickly as possible, but as the process of evolution of man himself. It was now the task of the intellect to follow the gradual march of this process through all its devious ways, and to trace out the inner law running through all its apparently accidental phenomena.
That the Hegelian system did not solve the problem it propounded is here immaterial. Its epoch-making merit was that it propounded the problem. This problem is one that no single individual will ever be able to solve. Although Hegel was — with Saint-Simon — the most encyclopaedic mind of his time, yet he was limited, first, by the necessary limited extent of his own knowledge and, second, by the limited extent and depth of the knowledge and conceptions of his age. To these limits, a third must be added; Hegel was an idealist. To him, the thoughts within his brain were not the more or less abstract pictures of actual things and processes, but, conversely, things and their evolution were only the realized pictures of the "Idea", existing somewhere from eternity before the world was. This way of thinking turned everything upside down, and completely reversed the actual connection of things in the world. Correctly and ingeniously as many groups of facts were grasped by Hegel, yet, for the reasons just given, there is much that is botched, artificial, labored, in a word, wrong in point of detail. The Hegelian system, in itself, was a colossal miscarriage — but it was also the last of its kind.
It was suffering, in fact, from an internal and incurable contradiction. Upon the one hand, its essential proposition was the conception that human history is a process of evolution, which, by its very nature, cannot find its intellectual final term in the discovery of any so-called absolute truth. But, on the other hand, it laid claim to being the very essence of this absolute truth. A system of natural and historical knowledge, embracing everything, and final for all time, is a contradiction to the fundamental law of dialectic reasoning.
-- Engels, Socialism: Utopian and Scientific
i don’t think social change boils down to just one theory.
If we believe that the universe fundamentally makes sense, then it must stem from that that it can all be explained on the same terms. Furthermore, within a domain, the extent to which a theory is unable to explain some part of that domain is the extent to which it either fails or is in-utero just a component of a larger theory whose other parts can cover those other areas. Not only can social change boil down to one theory, if you believe we live in an interconnected, logical world, it must boil down to one theory. Obviously there are many competitors for that title, and none of them are yet developed enough to properly claim it, but it is a legitimate and even a necessary title.
Edit: Sorry for piling on about the dialectics part, I see Cowbee did go over it later. fwiw I think he didn't represent materialism fairly, but part of why I included the Engels quote is because I think he does represent Hegelian idealism and its fundamental problem (How can this dialectic of humans -- material beings -- take place in the world of ideas?) fairly.
Fwiw, i was only spewing things i vaguely remembered from that one sociology course i took, so i was bound to misspeak. Thank you for your insight.
Idealism is wrong, though, so focusing on it is useless IMO.
Now that's where we disagree strongly. You criticize it but have provided no points to debunk it.
The notion that ideas create matter, rather than the opposite, is anti-scientific.
I guess we can agree to disagree
Do you believe ideas to create matter? Am I misunderstanding you?
People will find ways to accrue wealth and power even if you change the rules of the game. Sometimes people on this platform make it sound like socialism or communism can solve our problems. but it's not that simple.
You're right, Marxists don't describe a Utopia but the natural progression of the Mode of Production.
Brainwashed since birth. GI Joe had the American Express slogan in an episode ("never leave home without it."). Alvin and the Chipmunks had a story about the Berlin Wall propagandizing communism. All the bad guys in Cobra have accents.
This shit is vile and it was on my morning cartoons.
Often because they're profiting from it themselves.
what if it was me
Living in denial is easy to continue doing and widely encouraged, while being very hard to overcome.
Because communism ≠ utopia. I only hate on shitty billionaires and ones that used shady methods to amass their wealth.
Blaming individuals produced by the system and not the system itself is strange. That's like saying the IDF isn't the problem, the soldiers are.
That's a fair critique. I don't like the capitalism we currently practice. I prefer a blend of socialism and capitalism - a social democracy if you will. I don't hate large corporations per se. I do hate those who commoditize basic necessities such as healthcare and housing. This is where i believe there should be no privatisation.
Social Democracy isn't a blend of Capitalism and Socialism, it's Capitalism with social safety nets.
Either way, what you describe maintains accumulation and monopolization, which results in more privitization and disparity, which we see in the Nordic Countries. There are no static systems.
So what does a blend of capitalism and socialism look like to you? I'm saying that sectors which can lead to unfair control over necessary resources should be solely controlled by the government.
And you say monopolization. Monopolization of what exactly? I don't think you care too much for the monopolization of the gaming industry or the video streaming industry do you?
Also, you emphasize wealth concentration. What exactly do you dislike about it? Especially considering that under a social democracy wealth is only at that point luxury since there is welfare available.
So what does a blend of capitalism and socialism look like to you? I'm saying that sectors which can lead to unfair control over necessary resources should be solely controlled by the government.
There isn't really such thing as a "blend," systems are either controlled by the bourgeoisie or proletariat. A socialist country with a large market sector is still socialist, a Capitalist country with a large public sector is still Capitalist. I recommend reading Socialism Developed China, not Capitalism.
And you say monopolization. Monopolization of what exactly? I don't think you care too much for the monopolization of the gaming industry or the video streaming industry do you?
Monopolization paves the way for socialization. Large, monopolist syndicates make themselves open to central planning and democratic control.
Also, you emphasize wealth concentration. What exactly do you dislike about it? Especially considering that under a social democracy wealth is only at that point luxury since there is welfare available.
Wealth concentration leads to influence, which results in further privitization and erosion of social safety nets, like we see in the declining Nordic Countries.
Interesting. I still disagree with the impossibility of "blends", but i will take a look at that book you recommended. Thank you for the conversation.
No problem! Let me know if you have any questions.
I don't know if billionaires are the product of capitalism per se. Billionaires are people who have found out how to exploit the current system the best. In a socialistic society there are plenty of opportunities for corruption and exploitation of the working class. The rules are just a bit different. Billionaires definitely will defend capitalism since it's how they're currently winning the game, but they'll adapt as soon as they need to as well. That or the winners will be a different group of people. Either way, the most powerful will always look for ways to consolidate even more power.
I suggest you read Marx, I can make some recommendations if you like.
Can you name a billionaire who doesn't match that description?
How about celebrities and not shitty CEOs. I'm generalizing towards multimillionaires as well as there aren't that many billionaires. Unless the hate is specifically towards billionaires which I don't think is the case.
However, i would put money on the off chance that there is at least one billionaire who wasn't shady about their wealth accumulation - think Steve Jobs. Unless you consider holding companies to be shady.
How about celebrities and not shitty CEOs. I’m generalizing towards multimillionaires as well as there aren’t that many billionaires. Unless the hate is specifically towards billionaires which I don’t think is the case.
I just took what you put out there. Generally, I'm skeptical that celebrities will really withstand scrutiny, since they tend to be supported by production crew and lesser-paid artists (whether in music or movies) who get regularly screwed over. Perhaps you can make an okay argument with athletes despite them also being held up by the pipeline from the notoriously exploitative college sports industry, playing in stadiums that are mostly damaging to the city, doing merchandising produced from sweatshops, etc.
But I don't really care about those arguments. The reason I don't care is that the conversation is based on an obscurantist metric, that being income. Any decent anti-capitalist is not mainly concerned with how much money someone gets or has, but their relationship to the means of production. That is, they are concerned with whether this person subsists by owning or subsists by working. You displayed what I would consider a good intuition by shifting from CEOs (who generally subsist by owning) to celebrities (who at least kind of subsist by working). It seems somewhat plausible to me that there would be very wealthy athletes, say, in a socialist state, because their job requires a lot of work and, at the top levels, having the talent to accomplish what they can accomplish is rare!
However, i would put money on the off chance that there is at least one billionaire who wasn’t shady about their wealth accumulation
If a machine produces a thousand cubes but also produces at least one octahedron, what would you describe the function of the machine as being?
think Steve Jobs.
When I think of Steve Jobs, I think of someone who put a lot of money and dedication into PR.
As a starting point if you believe that, here's an article that lightly goes over some of his controversies (ignore points 4 and 10). And here's one that I think is somewhat more interesting that incidentally demonstrates how dependent he was on exploitation of the third world.
Unless you consider holding companies to be shady.
Owning a company is just a legal status, it's what you do with it that matters. If what you do with it just happens to be amassing more wealth than many, many people could obtain in a lifetime of labor, you probably didn't get there with clean hands.
I want to say that i appreciate your nuance on the subject. You have raised many good points, and i will take a lot of what you have said into consideration in my future discussions on the topic.
I also want to give kudos on your shift from focus on income to more the relationship with that income which i agree can create problems especially when it comes to power imbalances. The overfocus on the income is as you put it "obscurantist".
If a machine produces a thousand cubes but also produces at least one octahedron, what would you describe the function of the machine as being?
You raise a very good point here as well. One which makes sense with your analogy.
I've also gone through the articles you posted, and there's some pretty eye-opening stuff in there.
I guess this is in some ways an admittal of defeat. I do not know whether i completely subscribe to a "communism is the next best". I think i still need to educate myself more on this topic.
I'm happy I could be helpful!
I guess this is in some ways an admittal of defeat
There's no need to claim defeat or victory, we're just talking; Success in communication is determined by the extent to which we are able to understand each other, and I think we did alright.
I think i still need to educate myself more on this topic.
I can't claim to represent any perspective but my own, but the text that really helped me to begin to see things differently was Socialism: Utopian and Scientific. Feel free to DM me/necropost here if there's anything I can help with.
Thanks man. I'll be sure to hit you up if i need help with anything!
Why give the regime whores a pass? They play a role within the system to pacify the plebs. They are not by any stretch on the peasant team.
Sure some deff stood tall. Carlin is an example I can stand behind but rest of them esp modern ones are just pathetic sell out.
Seeing Jon cena and one of the clown ba players apologizing to China for $$$
Fucking disgusting
ones that used shady methods to amass their wealth.
Can you provide an example of one who didn't?
I guess there some celebrities now in that club... But I can't even get behind these regime whores. They have no solidarity with the people from which they leech
ITT: A lot of people answering for people who have diametrically opposed views to them.
Interesting question. I don't think I've ever defended either. I've also only lived in capitalist countries, so I have no personal experience with other economic systems.
They don't have to balls to think for themselves.
Liberalism doesn't exist because of moral failures of individuals, but because the Mode of Production supports the laws, ideology, art, culture, etc. that exist from it.
Some people think they are part of the club, rest don't know better
Brainwashing.
I defend capitalism because it is the most equitable and productive economic system that has ever existed, lifting more people out of poverty than ever before.
Free markets create space for those who don’t fit in. As an autistic person, I appreciate a world where I can find a way to survive other than convincing a committee that I deserve to exist.
I don’t deserve billionaires per se, but I have nothing against their existence and I think that a billionaire under capitalism is more fair and more likely to have fairly and productively achieved their wealth than a billionaire under any other system.
And if you don’t think the other systems have billionaires, you’re blind.
Under a free market, one gets rich by providing value. Economic relations are mutually consensual. That’s the definition.
What is called “capitalism” these days is, generally speaking, the places where the free market has broken down. Slaves aren’t a free market scenario. Only having one available job isn’t a free market scenario. Big corporations controlling the government to prevent their competition from surviving or arising isn’t a free market scenario.
All the “worst aspects of capitalism” that people complain about are exactly the aspects of the world that most resemble capitalism’s alternatives like anarchy and centralized command economies.
We need more free market, not less. We need to let people buy a pack of cigarettes and then sell them for $2 a pop to make a profit, not kill them for doing this.
The anti-capitalist hate is the result of decades of anti-working class propaganda that has made generations of people dedicated to destroying the very thing that gives them hope and possibility in the world.
Biggest psy op in history, as Marx himself would be the first to recognize if he were alive and commenting today. I defend capitalism NOT because I want to fit in, but because it is the right thing to do.
I defend capitalism because it is the most equitable and productive economic system that has ever existed, lifting more people out of poverty than ever before.
Free markets create space for those who don’t fit in. As an autistic person, I appreciate a world where I can find a way to survive other than convincing a committee that I deserve to exist.
This is an absurd strawman of central planning.
Under a free market, one gets rich by providing value. Economic relations are mutually consensual. That’s the definition.
Even more absurd. Individuals get wealthy by exploiting laborers. Economic relations are enforced by the system itself, not consent. The Laborers must work to not starve.
What is called “capitalism” these days is, generally speaking, the places where the free market has broken down. Slaves aren’t a free market scenario. Only having one available job isn’t a free market scenario. Big corporations controlling the government to prevent their competition from surviving or arising isn’t a free market scenario.
Yep, Capitalism defeats itself. You can't turn the clock back.
All the “worst aspects of capitalism” that people complain about are exactly the aspects of the world that most resemble capitalism’s alternatives like anarchy and centralized command economies.
Correct, Capitalism socializes itself and paves the way for central planning.
We need more free market, not less. We need to let people buy a pack of cigarettes and then sell them for $2 a pop to make a profit, not kill them for doing this.
An absurd comparison and a strange call to go back in time to less developed Capitalism.
The anti-capitalist hate is the result of decades of anti-working class propaganda that has made generations of people dedicated to destroying the very thing that gives them hope and possibility in the world.
Capitalism's decay.
Biggest psy op in history, as Marx himself would be the first to recognize if he were alive and commenting today. I defend capitalism NOT because I want to fit in, but because it is the right thing to do.
Marx would be elated to be proven correct.
I defend capitalism NOT because I want to fit in, but because it is the right thing to do.
Talk about a hot take haha
Are you denying that the vast majority of people commenting on this are against capitalism?
That's not how in-read these comments.
People wouldn't be bitching if everything was good.
Look at boomers, shit worked out for them.
So they larp whatever regime whores on teevee say and then they go around spouting that shot as gospel.
I’m talking about all comments everywhere. Everyone commenting in all fora.
People bitch about capitalism everywhere all the time. It is the zeitgeist of our time that capitalism is bad.
if everything was good
… we’d be in a utopia. There are problems because it is inherent to the nature of reality that problems are going to exist.
Fewer economic problems exist under capitalism than in nature, or in any other economic system that’s been tried. Comparing our situation to a situation with no problems is fruitless.
A free market, ie situations where both parties must consent before economic cooperation happens, is the most productive arrangement of economic decision-making. It produces the least starvation, the least anxiety, the least disease, the least war, the least violation of people’s rights.
If wealth is accumulated due to merit, why does wealth tend to accumulate within families? Are these families somehow more meritorious than the rest of the population? Is it perhaps the multi-generational connections made in industry providing additional benefit to those families?
As for the free market, the FDA was formed because bakers in the free market realized that sawdust was cheaper than flour. The free market also requires perfect information to function correctly, but even if you have that how will it help if there is no better regulation. Once upon a time the only kind of match you could buy were made with white phosphorus, despite how dangerous it was to work with. It took regulation to switch to red phosphorus, even though the expense was only slightly higher.
Are these families somehow more meritorious than the rest of the population?
lacking multi-generational connections is still a pretty rosy picture of disadvantage. Statistically "unmeritorious" parents are far more likely to have their child suffer from malnutrition due to lack of money and neglect due to the parents working 2 jobs or having substance abuse issues. If the country has private schools, they won't have access to them and due to living in a low-wealth area their public schools will have a disproportionately high amount of other neglected and abused kids which makes everything harder.
What's your take on this video?
'Is capitalism actually reducing poverty?' w/ Richard Wolff
The simple fact is that capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty historically than anything else.
Is capitalism a perfect system? Of course it isn't. But it's the best one we've got.
The simple fact is that capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty historically than anything else.
This is patently false, the PRC holds that record and it was due to Socialism, not Capitalism.
Lol. Firstly, China claims they've eradicated absolute poverty. Do you really believe that?
Secondly, China has opened its markets to the world and allowed a ton of private ownership and private companies to take on the global markets.
The only thing that isn't capitalist about China is the word "Communist" in the ruling party.
Lol. Firstly, China claims they've eradicated absolute poverty. Do you really believe that?
Yes, why do you not?
Secondly, China has opened its markets to the world and allowed a ton of private ownership and private companies to take on the global markets.
Yes. Mao misjudged the level of productive forces and tried to establish Communism through fiat. Deng opened the markets to foreign Capital, where the CPC allows businesses to grow in a controlled and careful manner before "harvesting them" into the public sector once they grow sufficiently. The majority of the economy is publicly owned, operated, and planned.
The only thing that isn't capitalist about China is the word "Communist" in the ruling party.
This is an absurd statement that could only be made by someone unfamiliar with Marxism. The presence of markets do not mean that the system isn't Socialist. The economy is socialized by degree, not by decree! You can't establish Communism through fiat, which is why the CPC has been absorbing more Private corporations into the Public sector over time, and exerting more control and planning on the Private sector.
This is a country where COVID originated and with a population of 1.4 billion, yet apparently only 5,272 people have died. They're not great at telling the truth and are masters at propaganda.
This is an absurd statement that could only be made by someone unfamiliar with Marxism. The presence of markets do not mean that the system isn't Socialist.
The profits from companies are retained by the companies. Isn't the idea of socialism that the workers own the means of production and no companies profit? The Chinese economy is set up the exact opposite.
This is a country where COVID originated and with a population of 1.4 billion, yet apparently only 5,272 people have died. They're not great at telling the truth and are masters at propaganda.
They took much stronger stances against COVID than the US. Not sure what numbers they actually have, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were low.
The profits from companies are retained by the companies. Isn't the idea of socialism that the workers own the means of production and no companies profit? The Chinese economy is set up the exact opposite.
You have a fundamental misconception of what Socialism is. It isn't an ideal to be forced on a society, but the result of markets coalescing and centralizing, to be planned. Additionally, the majority of the PRC's economy is in the public sector. Private Property is abolished and absorbed by degree, not decree.
TBH... It was due to free market reforms. Which in of itself is not capitalism though but normies can't tell the difference.
They weren't "free"-market reforms. A good, 21 minute read is the article Socialism Developed China, Not Capitalism. The PRC brought back markets because they tried to achieve Communism through fiat, without letting markets adequately coalesce into monopolist syndicates ripe for socialization. The Dengist Reforms brought stability to growth and prevented recession, but the bulk of the economy is publicly owned and centrally planned.
Regarding capitalism, in reality, it is the best system we’ve seen so far.
Yes, theoretically other systems could be better for the general public. But in reality, they never have been.
Socialism has been proven to do far more for its citizens than Capitalism. Capitalism is just a phase in development, Socialism supercedes it.
Did something supercede Socialism in Russia around the years 1988 to 1991?
It's important to note that the USSR didn't build into Capitalism, but collapsed into it. The USSR was dissolved from the top-down, not due to structural failures and instability, but due to opportunism.
There was a lot that went into the "murder" of the USSR, and numerous mistakes along the way of its development that were inevitable as history's first Socialist State, but the idea that Capitalism grew out of Socialism is not correct. When I say "supercede," I quite literally mean that Capitalism's mechanisms naturally lead to Socialism over time.
Who told you that? Why do you believe it? Where and when are you citing as the best so far?
Life experience.
Do you want some salt with that boot?
No, but do you have sriracha?
Please cite, with examples from reality, a better system.
Bootlicker
Understood.
Please cite, with examples from reality, better systems.
1940s American socialism. Which lead to the greatest income distribution for American families
Strong example!
I’m curious if we would call this time period socialism or capitalism being held in check.
The era of high taxes on high income was definitely beneficial to more Americans than today’s low tax structure.
Billionaires and capitalism isn't the same problem. We have billionaires because anti-monopoly committee isn't working :) that's a main reason why they're existing :)
In late-stage capitalism, they are.
because the idea of being super rich is awesome and i want to be super rich. so much bills i wouldnt have a thought about 😂
For every person who is "super rich", thousands, if not millions, will go through strife and unfair hardship
yep
Well you are not going to be super rich, and even if you were, there probably would be tons of people who have to live in hell 24/7 in order for you to be super rich.
why are so many people arguing with my comment as if im not answering the question OP asked
Regulation is stripping freedom from people. We want freedom, we can’t regulate people.
I think that’s an argument.
Except without regulation businesses will do what they want and that usually isn't the best thing for society.
We need a well regulated capitalistic society
Exactly. But the people I favor of billionaires don’t care.
Implied in your question is the notion that a billionaire or corporation can never be right about a given topic. That just isn’t true.
Also, on any given topic people will have differing opinions for different reasons. Having an opinion that happens to align with a billionaire or corporation isn’t the same as defending those entities. Often you’re stuck siding with one of those entities no matter what side of an issue you fall on.
I like Mark Cuban’s efforts to lower prescription costs. Does that mean I’m siding with a billionaire? If you don’t agree with me should I be able to dismiss your opinion as support for the pharmaceutical industry?
Life isn’t black and white. Opinions can be nuanced and complex. I rarely see any comments defending companies for the pure love of capitalism. Reducing people’s opinions to an easy-to-villainize stance is just that – reductive. It doesn’t aid in meaningful conversation.
Lack of good examples of countries that are successful without being capitalist?
Pretty ubiquitously non-capitalist countries have a pretty poor track record.
I often hear the phrase, capitalism is terrible, but it's the least bad of the terrible options.
As an aside, I'm arguing here for capitalism, not billionaires. Supporting capitalism isn't an endorsement of a complete lack of controls and safeguards.
Lack of good examples of countries that are successful without being capitalist?
There are many. The USSR, PRC, Cuba, Vietnam, Laos, etc. Have all drastically improved on previous conditions, achieving large increases in life expectancy, democratization, literacy rates, access to healthcare, housing, education, and more. Read Blackshirts and Reds.
Pretty ubiquitously non-capitalist countries have a pretty poor track record.
This is false. What are you specifically tracking? Freedom for the bourgeoisie?
I often hear the phrase, capitalism is terrible, but it's the least bad of the terrible options.
The phrase is typically used to describe democracy, not Capitalism.
As an aside, I'm arguing here for capitalism, not billionaires. Supporting capitalism isn't an endorsement of a complete lack of controls and safeguards.
It doesn't matter what you support, the Superstructure, ie laws and safeguards, comes primarily from the Base, ie the Mode of Production.
Markets move themselves regardless of people's will towards centralized syndicates, monopolies over production. These make themselves ripe for siezure and central planning, markets themselves prepare the proletariat for running a socialized economy as they coalesce over time. This is why Marx says the bourgeoisie produces "above all else, its own gravediggers." There is no maintaining Capitalism, it eliminates itself over time.
USSR starved ethnic minorities to industrialize. How is this success? or is that the price you can accept?
I'm confused, do you think the USSR's economy was powered by starvation of ethnic minorities, and through this magic starvation power industrialization could occur? What point are you trying to make?
I cant tell if this for real....
But so we are clear... USSR had undesirable minority farmers who didn't like collectivization.
They need hard currency to buy tooling and equipment to industrialize.
They took all crops from these farmers, sold it on International markets and kicked industrialization into high gear...
Millions died. So yes USSR industrial at expense of millions of lives. I don't think there is much dispute here.
Do you think Kulaks were an ethnicity, and not a bourgeois class? Collectivization of agriculture was poorly done, yes, but it wasn't what powered industrialization. This is a misanalysis of the USSR.
Weren't they ukrainian?
I don't think kazakhs were ever called kulaks, not sure tho
Collectivization of agriculture was poorly done,
And here comes genocide apologia ... Again
You're conflating disparate factors. Ukraine was the breadbasket of the USSR, that doesn't mean there was a targeted famine towards them.
Kulaks were a group of bourgeois farmers that opposed collectivization. Many of these Kulaks burned their own crops and killed their livestock to avoid handing it over to the Red Army and the Communists.
The famine in Ukraine and parts of Russia was a separate but linked matter. The Kulak resistance to collectivization was multiplied by drought, flood, and pests, making an already low harvest spiral into crisis. The idea that it was an intentional famine and therefore a genocide actually originated in Volkischer Beobatcher, a Nazi news outlet, before spreading to the west. It isn't "genocide apologia," it was a horrible tragedy caused by a combination of human and environmental factors.
Genocide denial spotted
The formatting is admittedly not the most readable, but this is the best article I have seen on the topic.
Which part do you disagree with? This isn't genocide denial, not even western historians believe the USSR's 1930s famine was genocide. Please explain what you mean, before resorting to libel.
Straight from Wikipedia, are you accusing them of genocide denial too? Archival evidence points to the second, it was a consequence of collectivization and the reaction against collectivization, combined with natural factors.
USSR deliberately stole farmers food as result of which millions starved.
People who don't okay ball were executed on the spot. Peasants were not permitted to leave their towns, people who attempted were executed.
Moscow was petitioned to stop and they refused.
People can make their own conclusions.
All the other bullshit you are spinning is trying to undermine these facts which are suppoted by historical records.
USSR even got a NYT regime whore to tell American public nobody is starving because it was getting a bit awkward on global stage due to the reports coming out from Ukraine.
USSR deliberately stole farmers food as result of which millions starved.
Mind sharing evidence? The USSR tried to collectivize the bourgeois farms run by the Kulaks, yes, they didn't try to starve anyone intentionally.
People who don't okay ball were executed on the spot. Peasants were not permitted to leave their towns, people who attempted were executed.
Moscow was petitioned to stop and they refused.
People can make their own conclusions.
There was resistance from the Bourgeoisie, yes. The Kulaks resisted, often violently, in the middle of drought, flood, and pestilent famine.
All the other bullshit you are spinning is trying to undermine these facts which are suppoted by historical records.
I did not once undermine this. I, in fact, directed you to a wikipedia article affirming what I had said. Are you calling Wikipedia genocide deniers too?
USSR even got a NYT regime removed to tell American public nobody is starving because it was getting a bit awkward on global stage due to the reports coming out from Ukraine.
Mind sharing a source? Western media tended to share the German narrative, the aforementioned origin of the "genocide" stance on the famine coming from the Nazi press was repeated in Britain and other western countries.
Many people do not grasp the sheer size of the disparity between the truly wealthy and everyone else.
They really think billionaires are like them, the only difference is that someone else goes to Walmart for them
Billionaires are like everyone else. That's the reason I don't look up to any. They're just as human as I am. No amount of money can ever make them anything else or anything more. They have access to an absurd degree, and they can afford far, FAR more, but they will never escape their base human nature. Almost anyone can be a billionaire. Some current billionaires prove that every moment they open their mouths.
Everyone poops.
Or they take capitalism as good and freedom as an axiom.
Most people will take "freedom" as an axiom, but how "freedom" is defined varies a lot. In a society where the commons are pretty much fully enclosed and you are homeless, the petite-bourgeois may very well be free, but you really aren't.
I believe your comments is just a paraphrase of: "They are being stupid"
In my opinion this is a very toxic way of thinking and does not try to understand the arguments "the other side" presents.
I don't think it's that bad-faith. I myself still find it positively mind-blowing to comprehend when the data is right in front of me.
Someone might equate wealth to hard work, but it hasn't really hit them, the real literal difference between 1 million dollars, and 1 billion, and then the news is talking about "trillionaires."
There's just no way to earn a billion dollars, to yourself, through honest work and by not exploiting others. And I think a lot of folks really don't realize this. They know that's a lot, but they might change their mind and realize how outrageous it is, when you present them with something like:
"Joe, you could get 3 more promotions and work 80 hours a week for 13 lifetimes and still not earn that much. Do you really think this is just petty jealousy at play?"
They might just change their mind.
But a lot of folks grew up in a time or place where people who ran the company started at the bottom, and it really needs to hit them hard that this just isn't reality anymore.
I assume they think they will be able to achieve the same status in the game that's designed to literally oppress them and make them think they are cared by the billionaires.
It's the American dream. What is the quote? We're all embarrassed potential millionaires?
That's why the "hustling culture" is so important and prevalent in our society right now.
Everyone "knows" someone that made bank with either youtube, selling some pyramid-scheme product, bitcoins, some collectibles, craft beer, lottery... you name it.
Social media (and before that was TV) is selling us the idea that there's a shortcut to becoming rich, you just need to find it, hustle, and you will become one of the rich persons.
That's also why there's so much cult of wealth and billionaires.
That said, a large portion of Millennials and after them have a rather negative view of billionaires and are rather skeptical of becoming rich, or even becoming home owners.
The worst one is Real Estate agent. Oh god I hate them so much.
Something like "Temporarily inconvenienced billionaires" I think?
I'll have you know I'm a millionaire with a cash flow problem.
This has been studied, and the ‘temporarily embarrassed millionaires’ idea is actually wrong.
The real reason is because some people (especially conservatives, because it’s a core part of conservative ideology) believe that in order for society to work, a hierarchy must be maintained wherein the ‘deserving’ are at the top, and everyone else is in their rightful place. Any threat to the natural hierarchy will undo the societal order and bring chaos and carnage.
This is why Obama becoming president was such an affront – because his presence outside his ‘rightful place’ was an existential threat to the natural order.
This belief has its roots way back when feudalism began to fail and the moneyed classes needed to find a new way to retain their power – both capitalism and conservatism were born at that time, with ideologies shifting from birthright to ‘earned’ status, which enshrined the haves and have-nots into literally sacred structures of meritocracy and social darwinism, and colonialists specifically fostered strict adherence to the social order. It became ingrained culturally that adhering to your station, whatever it is, is crucial for society to function. That there’s honour in being a cog in the machine, and that not accepting your lot in life is a danger to everyone. (eta: this is mostly subconscious, but you can see it if you ask ‘why’ enough times of someone who idolises Musk, for example. You’ll eventually whittle them down to these themes.)
That’s a nutshell view of a complicated topic, but these people don’t believe they’ll strike gold one day. They believe people who are rich deserve to be treated as kings, for the same reason monarchist peasants did.
Any pointers where I can read more about that?
One place to start is this article from the Stanford Encyclopaedia on Philosophy: Conservatism.
It’s a lengthy read, but enlightening.
One highlight from the summary:
I recommend reading the sources linked in that article, as well.
eta: It’s worth noting that societies worldwide often see a resurgence in conservatism in response to social change, crises, and civil rights movements, which are without fail a fear response to threats to the social hierarchy. We can see this in real time.
because they prefer to dream of themselves as billionaires in potentia. it's hard to admit you've been duped, especially when society gives you so many targets to punch down on.
or, as futurama put it, link
A slave doesn't dream to be free, but to be a king
Well it's similar to what Churchill said about democracy... it's a bad system but it's better than all the others.
If you can put ideology aside and think in terms of economics, in many industries capitalism offers an efficient way of determining the an optimal price and quantity to produce considering the costs and value something brings. And it's something that allows for industries to function without an excessive amount of centralized planning which will often get things wrong.
But it's like a machine in a many ways. And like any machine it requires maintenance. Things like trust-busting, progessive taxation, regulations, and occasional stimulus are necessary to keep it running smoothly.
But once you bring ideology into it, it all becomes a shitshow. Some will argue capitalism is a perfect machine and any kind of maintenance on the machine will ruin it's perfection. Others take any kind of maintenance on the machine as a sign the machine will inevitably fail and needs to be replaced entirely. But then we go back to the beginning where other systems have been tried and they're worse. Charlatans, grifters, ideologues abound pushing people in every direct except for simply taking reasonable measures to keep the machine running smoothly. There's an almost religious devotion towards arguing the either the machine is perfect or the machine is doomed to failure and not only should be replaced they should accelerate the failure so it can be replaced sooner.
Zealots from all sides demonize the mechanics that are simply keeping things running. A lot of emotional nonsense about this thing. But to an economist, it's just a machine with both strengths and weaknesses. The functioning of the machine is well understood, and the other machines that have been tried didn't really work.
I think decentralization of power is a nice feature too. Billionaires are power centers outside of the government, judiciary, or military. They exist as a result of lax control on the markets by the government. In countries without capitalism and property rights, the billionaires are the government and the judiciary and the military. So, even though it might seem like nationalizing their wealth would decrease inequality, if there aren't good safeguards for decentralizing government power, it would result in a less equal society.
Part of the existence of billionaires is the ability to actually determine which money is theirs. In autocratic governments, you can't really say who owns what because you never know what the government might decide to take.
I don't defend billionaires, I think power should be spread more fairly, but eliminating them via the government needs to be done wisely in order to maintain decentralization.
Maintaining decentralization just allows for more centralization as markets coalesce into monopolist syndicates, better to centralize, make public property, and democratize.
The main argument is that that would not less to democratic control. Are there any historical examples where you have both democracy and violation of private property rights?
Cuba, the PRC, USSR, etc. All had large democratization of the economy compared to the fascist slaver system under Batista, the Nationalist Kuomintang, and the brutal Tsarist regime. Centralization doesn't inherently mean democratic control, but you can't have meaningful democratic input without control, and thus democratic output.
Again, decentralized market systems naturally result in the "better" firms monopolizing and outcompeting, this isn't something that can be meaningfully fought.
AES states have by no means been perfect democratic wonderlands, of course, but they have brought large democratization with respect to the level of development of the productive forces. I highly recommend reading the essay Why do Marxists Fail to Bring the "Worker's Paradise?" It takes 20 minutes and contextualizes the benefits and struggles of AES states. Socialism is often judged through a false, idealist lens, rather than an analysis of the actual material conditions and structures.
It was an interesting read and reminded me that democratic socialists arguing for restricted capitalism and communists are often arguing for similar goals with differing language.
Sort of. Communists don't want restricted Capitalism, they want to progress from Capitalism to Socialism.
In the US, they just have solidified a really good means of controlling it… I mean, the amount we don’t tax them, the super PACs we let them contribute to, and the control they have over our media are definitely forms of control that may not be “as bad” as other systems (arguably) but it seems like it’s really similar.
Many reasons. One major factor imho is the belief or illusion to be living in a meritocracy. Which would mean, that someone who's rich has to have earned it and therefore criticism must stem from envy or jealousy. The same belief fuels the ideology of thinking of poor people to just be lazy leeches on society.
The idea of meritocracy is such a bullshit lie it's laughable. We need it so our children don't live in a world without hope but much like santa claus they should shed the idea around the time of college. There are merit based reward systems. Ladder climbing is real. Only, many of them are corrupted by politics and mismanagement. Even if you succeed in an isolated merit based system it's only to incentivize more production and you will never reach the level of CEO or what ever.
What we should teach young adults is that life is a lottery inside a lottery inside a lottery. Success is about increasing your odds by taking as many smart bets as you can. Bets where the reward is great and where you don't have much at stake if you lose. Betting with other people's money is the most efficient way of extracting value. The meritocracy isn't real, so neither is the morals around it. If you want nothing but an easy life this is how you do it. If your can't in good conscious gamble with other people's livelihoods we will see you on the ladder.
temporarily embarrassed billionaires
Richard Nixon's head : I promise to cut taxes for the rich and use the poor as a cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel!
[audience applauds]
Philip J. Fry : That'll show those poor!
Turanga Leela : You're not rich!
Philip J. Fry : But someday I might be rich, and people like me better watch their step
Because propaganda is effective.
Many don't even do it intentionally, they just don't grasp concepts like Historical and Dialectical Materialism, which requires reading lengthy books to fully grasp. They may be anti-Capitalist at heart, but without a solid understanding of theory they play into bourgeois hands.
There's also the fact that the ideas held by society are a reflection of the Mode of Production.
Pretty sure they'd take everything you just wrote and say, "that sounds like critical race theory, which Jesus said was bad."
Sure. The de-industrialization of America has been devastating for class awareness.
What de industrialization?
US is second largest industrial output and it has been rising.
Unless you mean jobs after NAFTA and code changes... Which is true but manufacturing employment is on the rise post covid reforms
The US shifted the vast majority of its production overseas, which is why it's seen as a "service economy."
US did offshore no doubt but it was not a vast majority. You can check the numbers, there was some decline in employment but US has high tech factories and industrial base is now growing quickly even with job growth since covid.
The reason it is largely a service economy is due to growth in service sector after industrialization. Once people got all their needs with goods met, they started buying service.
Think about all the food joints we have now for example. This is fairly recent thing. Sure food out always existed but not like this.
Also, people have god walkers, people buy insurance etc all this is kinda recent in big picture thing
I am aware of the process, the US produces the vast majority of its commodities oversees before "finishing" or "assembling" in the US. It's Imperialism in action, where it hyper-exploits the Global South for super-profits.
Right but we started this here with claim that US de industrialized which I saying is not accurate and it is a common misconception thrown around.
It reversed industrialization and shifted internationally.
Industrialization in the US was not reversed, out has been grown even pre covid.
That's my entire point here. This can be easily verified too.
Trends.
It doesnt even require that much reading of such subjects. All it takes is to not be brainwashed by media and politicians.
Critical thought and self awareness is all it takes
I'm sorry, but I entirely disagree. Dialectical and Historical Materialism are incredibly far-removed from standard American discourse and takes quite a bit to understand, oversimplifying it is dangerous. If all it took to be a Marxist-Leninist was critical thought and self-awareness, the US would have had a proletarian revolution already.
Usually it's my friend Cowbee here who tells people to read things, but here I will:
https://redsails.org/masses-elites-and-rebels/
"Brainwashing" is a reactionary myth (that originally comes from orientalist stories of Chinese hypnosis that were used to explain-away defectors in the Korean war) that is used to position the believer in a position superior to the masses ("sheeple"), and which only knows how to treat the latter condescendingly as blind followers of this or that, which is not how you do mass organizing if you want to succeed.
Should be mandatory reading, thanks for posting it!
People who defend billionaires either have a vested interest, have actually bought that they're 1000x smarter than normal people, or have some (possibly vague) abstract moral position that overrules the basic idea of fairness. Often it's more than one.
Capitalism, as the term is commonly used, is poorly defined enough that you have to specify what it means here. Is it any kind of market? Is it large corporations? Is it every interaction being purely voluntary (somehow)? If you consider a big Soviet firm like Gosbank a "corporation", all three could also be socialist depending on who you ask.
Since this is .ml, for the classical Marxist definition that it's "private ownership of the means of production", the arguments are mainly against the proposed alternatives, or just that private vs. personal is hard to demarcate, and nobody wants to share a toothbrush.
I guess the central premise of capitalism is that while every society has its haves and have nots, capitalism is supposed to encourage the haves to invest in the economy rather than hoarding their wealth. In return, they stand to get even wealthier, but a stronger economy ought to generate more employment and generally improve the lives of commoners as well.
Unfortunately, in a never-ending quest to make wealth-generation more efficient and streamlined, employment is being eliminated through automation, outsourcing, etc. and the system is eating itself out from the inside. I doubt it can persist much longer, but what will replace it remains unclear. I pray that it will be something sensible that ensures everyone has their basic needs met and can still find rewarding pursuits in life. But there are so many ways it could go very wrong, and that includes staying on the current course.
Nitpicky, but that's the premise of Liberalism, not Capitalism. Capitalism emerged not because it was an idea, but an evolution in Mode of Production. Liberalism is the ideological justification.
Have you read Marx? He makes the case that due to Capitalism's tendency to centralize and form monopolist syndicates with internal planning, the next mode of production is Socialism, ie public ownership and planning of the syndicates formed by the market system.
Unfortunately many of us have been taught that being a good person and a good citizen equals being productive and accumulating resources. Things that are quantifiable and external to the actual person and their relationships.
Being productive and accumulating some resources can be good activities to spend time on, but they are practical necessities and not defining characteristics of existence.
Propaganda
Your username on a post about capitalism makes me giggle
You mean our post.
Yes comrade.
I like how these pretty neatly map to the three I gave for defending billionaires, even though they're worded very differently and probably thought of completely independently. We even ordered them the same way.
I suppose the 1000x smarter thing isn't the only propaganda reason given, but I'd say meritocracy is by far more pronounced than inherent property rights or red-baiting in today's mainstream media. People who go with the latter two tend to learn it through personal connections.
Because the average person doesn't have any real time to think deeply about politics. They believe whatever big media tells them. Some also can't understand how evil someone people can get.
"Surely the basic logic of how things work must be very consistent in order to have such a large and prosperous country like the USA. I don't understand it. Probably because I'm missing something not because it's fundamentally flawed"
Because the economic elites have engineered it that way.
They flooded the workplace with double the workers (both men and women), thereby depressing wages and forcing both parents to become wage earners to survive. Then, with both parents working outside the house, childcare and chores sucked up all available free time, and even more household costs went towards outside help (daycares, etc.).
Then they began a tradition of kicking children out of the house when they became adults, thereby putting strain on infrastructure and increasing the demand for housing.
Then they began a push for higher education, thereby saddling young adults with ridiculous amounts of debt at the point of their lives when they could least afford to shoulder said debt.
All this makes us extremely time poor and resource poor, such that we cannot afford the head space to consider anything beyond where we put the next step or two that we make. As a society, the common man becomes far too busy just treading water to be concerned about in which direction they should swim.
As such, most people take massive amounts of cognitive shortcuts, relying far too much on things spoon-fed to them from the very news sources that should be unbiased and impartial, but which are nearly always owned by the Parasite Class, which favour deeply regressive conservative policies that benefit only themselves at the expense of the common person.
And most people don’t think deeply not because they cannot be bothered to think for themselves, but rather because they have far too much on their plate to afford to do so. They quite literally would mentally burn out if they were to do so.
It's impressive that someone engineered the last century of economic history. That's some Palpatine level engineering!
Our retirement is tied to it.
my retirement is non-existent
Maybe you should be working to fix that.
working on it, I've taken upon myself the eat the rich way of thinking and planning. however, after their wealth is distributed, retirement doesn't work without an ever increasing population, does it?
This is the answer, right here
Liberalism, its propaganda, and its consequences. Also a severe lack of class consciousness and knowledge of political theory.
I think more important than that, is the reason for liberalism, which is the base, ie the Mode of Production.
The Post apocalyptic nature of alot of media makes me think that people can more easily Imagine the fall of human civilization then we can a better world where everyone's needs are met.
To the 1%, losing all your wealth and power be an apocalypse, so it is in their best interests that everyone would be thinking the same as well. No matter how much better we all would be together otherwise.
We’re raised by parents that must be obeyed for our own safety. Some people eventually learn to accept their parents are imperfect people and not gods. Many people do not. They look to kings and gods to protect and provide for them.
Those that have power negotiate with kings and gods. People without power attempt to use the only techniques they know to negotiate with their kings and gods: begging and/or pledging loyalty and service in exchange for scraps.
Of course this is but one of many reasons many people worship power.
It's not because they think they can be billionaires, it's because they've been taught (and in a minority of cases this is true) that they are better off going after the crumbs that billionaires leave them than trying some other system.
Because my country, Ukraine, was under communists and it was not good time with all genocides, holodomor, repressions, red terrors and other things. Because good life under communists had only people from nomenclature. And I didn't say nothing about censorship. Under censorship you'll not create good music, good meals, good products, good communities. All things will be under control of old guys from communist party
In Ireland we suffered under British Imperialism and capitalism for hundreds of years and we had our own famine and repressions.
Fact that us often ignored in Anglo world... Or when it is brought up... This oppression is different 🤡
Wow but under communists you will be killed by Irish person, not British :) and not for a reason that you are Irish, but for a reason that you are listening songs from another country or reading books, that was not accepted by censorship ;)
If censorship in Soviet Ukraine is your reason for defending capitalism, don't let it go over your head that such things happened and continue to happen in capitalist countries and colonies too.
Man are you going to have a wild time reading the First Act of Supremacy of 1534 from the United Kingdom. Couple of follow up bangers from it like the Act of Supremacy in Ireland of 1560. All that happening distinctly before communism was even invented.
Again, authoritarian, not communism.
You really to get yourself educated my friend
Typical communists still criticize me for my opinion, but give them power, they would shoot me on the spot without a trial, as in the times of the Red Terror :) in a typical communist country there can be no protests, which is confirmed by the case of China and Tiananmen Square
Buddy im not even communist, i am still for capitalism.
Your criticism is given to you because of how ridiculous you sound when you regurgitate the same old propaganda that you watch on social media.
Its so obvious that these thoughts were not formed by you
Echo chambers suck, I'm sorry. It's assbackwards when people dismiss real, lived experiences that don't align with what they optimistically imagine those experiences would be like.
So your describing surveillance capitalism
That's how I see how Zuckerberg sends your grandfather to Siberia for lack of work and unwillingness to work, as it happened with my grandfather :) Don't you think that you are exaggerating (so far) the level of problems in your country? All these problems of listening to you for the sake of selling goods are trifles compared to what any radical-communist-nazi who dares to power will do
Ok if we go off of that example, explain how exactly a so called communist country will exclusively force people to something against their will? What youre describing is closer to authoritarian government..
Nazis are not communist at all, they are facists. Youve been watching too much bullshit news from people who dont have a elementary clue of political science. This is why you cant even give a good clear answer as to why youre defending billionaires and surveillence capitalism.
Are you saying that the Soviets censored recipes?
Yes. Food in the shop had a bad quality with a permanent deficit. Big amount of good food in modern country is making by a small business
This could be a language barrier thing, but it sounds like you're talking about a production issue, not a censorship issue.
okay, despite the cultural and resource diversity, what prevented then in the Soviet Union from making normal food en masse for people like sushi or even shawarma? Why was there only sausage and chebureks, buns, vodka, beer everywhere? Because there is an order to do so and there is a chain of manufacturers, there was no initiative from below, although the country was supposed to be for the people. Due to the size of the state apparatus for serving the population, any initiative was lost. In the end, everything was done only when the old grandfather wanted to show off in front of the West :) there is nothing made of high quality in the Soviet Union, except for missiles that were sold to other countries to shoot at people :) and everything that served the military industry.
I'm going to avoid touching the rest of that and say that a centralized production not making sushi or shawarma is not the same as censoring those things. You can still make them at home, it's not like fish, rice, and seaweed were beyond the reach of the existing production. Again, it sounds like a production issue.
and the main reason for the deficit was preparation for the war, not the desire to make people's lives in the country better. Nothing prevented the Soviet Union with the Communists at its head from being an ally before the war with the Germans, attacking Poland together and attacking Finland, suppressing protests in Czechoslovakia and Hungary
I'm really struggling to follow some of this. Are you saying the Soviets didn't need to fight Germany and didn't need to take as much time as they could manage to prepare to do so?
The problem is that they were allies of Germany until Germany attacked them :) and they also wanted to conquer all of Europe, not just preparing to defend their own territory
I chose to avoid most of the bait so far, even with those cloying :)s that you like adding so much, but this one is too disgusting. It's historical revisionism pure and simple that they were ever "allies" with Germany. They had a treaty to try and stall German invasion, but they never imagined things would go otherwise than one party defeating the other (though they did underestimate how soon the Germans would attack).
Okay :) but everything was in deficit :) and this is not a production problem :) this is a problem of sick heads in power and a complete lack of empathy for the country's citizens :) in relations between people, the deficit created corruption, with which Ukraine still has big problems. A habit was created to solve all cases not according to the law. People could not travel abroad without a large number of certificates and the personal permission of the local head of the party. Soviet engineers, having good talents, proposed different concepts of cars that were very modern, but the local leadership said no to any initiative from below. It was easier for them to simply copy Western equipment, or buy Western equipment and pass it off as their own, as Russia is doing now under sanctions. Now, under capitalism, you can protest and at most they will give you something like a fine for hooliganism. Under the Soviet Union and the Communists, there were no protests, or if there were, people were sent to Siberia, and their families were dismissed from their positions, and they had a label in front of state bodies that their family was unreliable. And the journalists did not say anything about it under the pressure of censorship, not even a hint. People learned all the information about the protests only after the collapse of the Soviet Union. And something similar happens in any country that wants to build communism. People become communists in their eyes, often not for the sake of making the world better, but for the sake of getting back at a system in which they are marginalized and losers
Not sure why you've got downvoted, but that's the reason why all Baltic states had such a reaction when the invasion started.
That said, I would say that most of those states are highly socialistic despite having pretty much allergy to anything red and while preferring a capitalist system that doesn't mean they want or support billionaires.
It could be because they arent even describing communism. These problems are easily found right now.
The problem here is that people dont even know what communism is and they end up giving these kinds of answers. Makes you think thats probably why they made a new account
Theres no genuine convo of why communism is bad.
It's more because it's a bunch of random assertions, falsehoods, misunderstandings, half-truths, and more with no substance to tackle and respond to without starting a lengthy struggle session.
The USSR absolutely was guided by Communist ideology, and was Socialist, that's true. It's also true that it wasn't perfect. A good article to read is Why do Marxists Fail to Bring the "Worker's Paradise?" because many people don't understand Marxism and interpret it through an idealist, anti-Marxist lens. The article is pro-Marxist-Leninist, and anti-ultraleftist, and attempts to highlight the impossibilities of establishing an idealized form of Socialism through fiat, without strong development of the productive forces and centralization.
Centralization = corruption
Explain. You cannot achieve democratic control without centralization, because you can't have inputs with no output.
Issue of centralization is regime and politics agnostic. More centralization just results in more corruption.
I am not sure how to run the society any other way but we know that current systems are corrupted by the ruling elites at our expense.
Legal system is unwilling to deal with it because the judiciary are just regime lapdogs used against working people when they get out of line.
Again, please explain. This doesn't logically follow.
Capitalism is, Socialism isn't.
In Capitalism, yes.
Have you read Marx?
If you are big daddy owner, centralized state permits you to have access to the top guy who can do anything.
It is a lot easier to corrupt one guy, then it is to do one guy in every state for example is the logic here.
This is inherent defect of centralization. Sure we can get a lot of shit done effectively if everybody is good faith actor. And progress has been made but it was done with a ton of grift that we just accept
Capitalism and socialism are economic system for property. We are talking about the state in of itself here.
I would posit the issue not economic system choice but rather corruptions of the ruling class.
I bet any properly set up system would work as long as it was designed to work properly.
If you notice the best systems we currently have are actually a mix of both.
There is a strong correlation between quality of life of the working class and corruption.
Countries with low corruption are able to deliver high quality of life because they don't a lot of blatant looting.
I bet this will be the down fall of the US empire, the parasite class taking too much and it is causing serious social issues for Americans. They know something is wrong bit they jerk politics without realizing it is a futile exercise.
This isn't really accurate, though, this is just an argument against democracy. Recall elections are standard Marxist practice, which pretty much eliminates this problem outright. It seems like you haven't engaged with Marxist organizational theory.
They are always present linked. You can't divorce them, the Base creates and supports the Superstructure.
This is generally unfounded.
You can't "design" a system, that's utopianism.
No, the best systems currently are Socialist. There are no "mixes." Or, at least, everything is a mix, no system has made it to Communism yet, but the best systems are run along Marxist lines.
This is more correlation and not causation.
Yes, but none of that is unique to communism, that's just corrupt government. Anywhere that develops systemic inadequacies and a culture of impunity can instantly become such. That's just something that is independent of the underlying system of economics. Like many capitalist systems like to point out that bourgeoisie who are after their own interest act as some check on the government who is usually in a power struggle for control. And that power struggle is what ensures no one side wins out.
But there's nothing technically stopping the rich from becoming the actors of the government and when we as a society excuse profiteering in office, well then there's no barrier from the rich just becoming the government. Which that's just the French ancien régime that ultimately lead to the French Revolution.
So it's NOT specific to just communism. It's just that's the most recent and easiest one to point out because of how blatant/brazen that system had become with it's corruption. Even with all of the "nay-saying" that might happen with United States detractors with their usual hum of "Oh well they're all corrupt!" Even with how passive some are with it, the corruption is nowhere near the level of being out in the open that was with the USSR. Politicians still weasel their way around because they know that there's still some bottom level of ensuring checks on that corruption that exist. And we have those checks not because we are a capitalist society.
I think the idea that some economic system promotes some civic purity or prevents some form of government corruption is a bad linking of things that ought not be linked, because a pure capitalist society doesn't magically inherit some barrier of corruption. That barrier has to be formed independent of the underlying economic system.
I'm not trying to detract from what happened under the USSR but that has way more to do with how power got consolidated post World War I and everything that lead to the toppling of the Russian Monarchy. The system of communism played a role in that consolidation of power, yes, but literally any tool could have been used if you have someone with the mindset of Vladimir Lenin who wanted to rapidly consolidate power during the Bolshevik revolution. I mean look at the current Myanmar Civil War and some of the ideas of General Min Aung Hlaing, no need for implementation of communist ideology there, he just wants to be in power, doesn't believe that the current transfer of power is legitimate, and is willing to get a lot of people killed in proving that point.
I think given the current situation in the United States, the belief that you NEED communism to have totalitarianism is a dangerous linking of things that can actually happen independent of each other. You just need someone to wear down government legitimacy enough to start a civil war, that's all you need. Everything else is just tools at your disposal to get that goal done.
So you have to understand the nuance here I'm trying level. I'm not saying it WASN'T COMMUNISM, what I'm saying is that it can be communism, but ultimately you just need someone who wants to consolidate power rapidly and exists in a society that will forgive abuses of power enough, sometimes that's done by de-legitimizing the current system enough. That's it, that's all that's required. Communism can play a role in that somewhere, but it doesn't have to.
About defending capitalism (and not billionaires - who more often than not abuse this system). Some of us lived in other systems. And we understand any other system is way way way way worse.
There are however a lot of problems with capitalism and should be held on a very short leash. Or else monopoly happens. The most effective actions to keep capitalism at bay: strong anti-trust laws, strong worker protection (this includes a lot of stuff), wealth tax.
And be aware there are many flavours of calitalism. Most commonly people in USA are the most extreme where you have really "long leash". And people see such capitalism as failing and want to replace whole system.
Capitalism eats the leash, you can't avoid this.
As the above commenter mentioned it is possible to stop it eating the leash so to speak. The main problem is keeping all of those protections actually in place. We don’t seem to want to codify worker rights or anything else important to the constitution.
Follow the trends. People didn't stop wanting rights, Capitalism exists in constant decay as it grows, eroding worker rights due to outsized Capitslist power.
You can only stop Capitalism from eating its leash if you stop time, as long as systems remain in motion they will trend in natural directions, for Capitalism that is centralization.
Correct!
Stick a finger up its butt and the leash will get spit back out? I think I read that somewhere, not sure if it works.
This is simply not true. And whole EU is doing this more or less effectively. But your government has to be very very careful since this sure can happen.
In recent years we have seen degradation of this leash. But EU commission started keeping up with global monopolies.
I believe also in USA they are making some antitrust changes after a few decades of sleeping.
Proving me correct.
Read all my statements again. And apply strict mathematic logic.
Few years of degradation of antitrust laws and some effective reforms in this year alone does not in any way prove your point.
It absolutely does. Follow the trends and the mechanisms.
Ignorance, pride, "temporarily embarrassed billionaire" syndrome.
For the same reason people idolize the King.
I think the "temporarily embarrassed millionaire" idea is overstated, most people I interact with have a somewhat negative outlook on the economy and their future wealth.
I think the real issue is that no viable alternative is presented to most people.
The alternatives presented are Russian-style authoritarian oligarchy, Islamofascism, or a Venezuela-style "socialism" in which the narrative only focuses on poverty.
The PRC is absolutely a viable alternative, it's a Socialist Market Economy that has been steadily transfering Private Property into Public Property as markets coalesce into monopolist syndicates, which are then capable of central planning.
They have the most wild form of capitalism there is. And they married it with a lot of corruption and zero political freedom. This is not an alternative. Please.
They have a Socialist Market Economy, and married it to a Dictatorship of the Proletariat following whole-process people's democracy. One of the focuses of Xi's presidency has been anti-corruption, along with steady socialization of the private sector. Read Socialism Developed China, Not Capitalism. You have an ultra-idealist vision of Socialism that is anti-Marxist. Private property is socialized by degree, not decree!
Yes I have seen you in other comments. And we both know what is the actual state and level of freedom, poverty, and capitalism and corruption in China. Maybe organize a protest in China.
I know you like their system, but for some reason you fail to see issues with their system.
I fail to see the issues you imagine replicated in reality. Leave your mind palace.
Agreed. You can't argue with how effective it's been for the country as a whole, but I don't think i'd rather live there as an individual.
I would not live there. I value freedom and privacy. (In a healthy European way)
What "healthy European" freedom looks like:
What "healthy European" privacy looks like:
"I have an uncle who smoked whole life and is 98 years old" I am sure you know what you have been doing when you presented your "evidence". Not cool.
I've re-read this several times and I still don't have the slightest clue to what you're referring to, lib. It's clear-as-day that you're just another "They hate us for our freedom" folks and don't actually care about freedom or privacy for all.
(I am contemplating whether your are just trolling me and I should stop participating in this debate. But lets assume you really did not understood my point.)
You typed in google something like "EU failing privacy/democracy/freedom" and posted top results. And all those cases are real, but are cherry picked. Therefore I responded with a classical argument about why smoking is "not bad for your health". https://www.logicalfallacies.org/anecdotal.html
Your results did not include any actual indexes or aggregation of the data.
Please check this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_freedom_indices especially "list of scores by country" where you also have some historic entries.
To help you with some conclusions:
So why I had a problem with your response: I strongly believe you already knew the above two facts. You just decided to ignore them and presented me with some problems eu has so you can win the argument. So... I do not like you tried to "win argument" with a logical fallacy which is counterproductive for the debate. And when we just throw random arguments so opposing point of view comes out as bad, everyone comes out a little more radical in their view and noone changes their opinion. And I spent some time writing those comments (not with research but by forming thoughts and sentences in my second language). By turning the debate to this "Facebook like arguing" you destroyed my effort to participate in this community.
Also in response to your latest accusation: I specifically told you I have a healthy relationship with freedom, and "they hate us for our freedom" does not belong in this category.
As Marx said, "the ideas of ruling class are the ruling ideas"
Funnily enough you are proof of your previous statement above. The ruling class is presenting any, both better or worse alternatives to you in such form that you immediately dismiss them.
What gave you the idea that I'm dismissing them? I think you're confused.
Good quote tho
You, you said "Russian-style authoritarian oligarchy, Islamofascism, or a Venezuela-style “socialism” in which the narrative only focuses on poverty."
This is blatantly false. And you don't even know what the alternatives are or aren't. Russia isn't an systemic alternative, it's the very same capitalist as in west, just 100 years late and too late to develop imperialism, it's only a political alternative which forced them, after over 2 decades of trying to join the capitalist core, to finally oppose it. Islamofascism is such a fucking blatant Bush-era propaganda that i won't even comment on that nonsense. Venezuela don't even have socialism, again it's not an alternative, it's a capitalist economy which was forced into politically opposing capitalist core because of over century of brutal exploitation by that core.
All three examples your presented are the same narration (even more extreme in case of islam) than the billionaire owned western media oligopoly and their political arms like US DoS spreads. You don't try to know more (some of examples are in this very thread, and the actual alternatives like China too), you dismiss them in the exact manner the capitalist core ruling class wants you.
My friend, you are still confused.
I was giving the framing that comes from the billionaire owned western media oligopoly position.
that isnt my position
So you do not believe those? Could you elaborate what you think is the alternative for billionaires and especially capitalism?
They believe that the status quo is better than any alternatives. They have not been exposed to other ways of living and those that have lock themselves to basic tribalistic thinking.
Imagine trying to get a sports fan to see the benefits of being a fan of another sports team. Even if they aren’t personally playing and their team isn’t winning they maintain loyalty. Some even bet on their loser teams and lose money just because of loyalty.
It’s all about team loyalty/ tribalism
Excellent answer and I'll also jump off this to say this applies to marginalized groups just as much as anyone else, in a way I see a lot of people forget all about. Some percentage of marginalized people, through being in the right place and/or putting themselves there, do experience upward mobility through capitalism and therefore identify with it.
People forget that queer conservatives exist, but think about a gay couple with a lot of wealth, living a fairly standard nuclear family existence with an adopted kid or two, integrated into a society that probably still doesn't fully trust them but sees enough signifiers of "normality" that they're willing to let it slide. Which side of the political divide benefits them the most to align with? And what ideological principles will they come to internalize in the long term? Might they come to see themselves as somehow different or better than others in their marginalized community?
I'm getting tired of the fluff pieces expressing shock at the fact that some % of black voters are conservative, clutching their pearls at the thought of that number increasing, and speculating about black churches and "social conservatism." While also completely disregarding the fact that black voters have always leaned left yet are also affected by some of the same political shifts that every other demographic is. Our first loyalty is generally to our class.
They feel they will make that money someday.
This might be relevant:
https://youtu.be/J_fZ9o6P0-A?si=-fl7rLryYZBDVgTN&t=194
https://youtu.be/J_fZ9o6P0-A?si=FtaiY47HVyXXBeAP&t=340
https://thehistoryofrome.typepad.com/revolutions_podcast/2020/02/1033-bloody-sunday.html
Which is why the conservative mandate is to defund education and keep people as ignorant as possible.
I mean, to keep the common man as ignorant as possible -- the children of the elites will always go to prohibitively expensive Montessori schools, which will better prepare them for critical thinking and bullshit detection so that they may better rule over and parasitize off the common man.
They sold a lottery ticket to the population and made it look like 99% of you can win when the odds are rigged like a gambling machine. Everybody would defend a gambling machine as “fair and balanced” with enough indoctrination. “The American Dream” was when everybody could afford everything on minimum wage but capitalism is a short term oriented goal where for profit is the only actual mission. Tell me how many people can be sacrificed for it and I would say everybody as climate change has proven and a trillion dollar industry has shown. These climate change activists are stupid enough to think they can take down big corporations with wallets older than some of them. Never in a million years as long as capitalism exists. Imagine 112 years of sitting on their asses and not until 10-20 years ago they decided to use tweezers to put some pressure on them. Now that the whole world is about to be changed completely and irreversibly they want to stop it. It’s basically a cancerous economy that only festers at the top of the economy sucking everything around it until theirs nothing left but the cancer.
Everybody except blacks of course...
Gold age of America wasn't golden for everybody.
And after civil rights the regime punished the whites for siding with the blacks. So now we are all field ******
Don’t even get me started. Black people or minorities and America is top 10 worst duet. Richard Nixon ruined every generation afterwards and all of this modern day shitshow started festering with a strong back. We go backwards enough and slavery was abolished but the hatred just grew stronger and had a great foundation.
because they arent the ones being stripped of their livelihoods to fatten the moneypigs
I think it's like the old trope of asking a fish how the water is and they reply "what's water?"
I think you know why. Is this a real question or are you just fishing?
I genuinely want to know from those that defend them.
Pretty sure its fishing.
Lack of successful alternatives? It's easy to find flaws with capitalism but every other system has its share of problems too.
Socialism is the successful successor to Capitalism. Socialism isn't an idea you implement, but a consequence of markets coalescing into monopolist syndicates that make themselves ripe for public ownership and planning.
This is the case only if you believe in Marx
What do you disagree with here? The idea that markets trend towards monopolist syndicates, naturally centralizing production? Or the idea that the Proletariat should sieze these syndicates and plan production democratically and centrally?
I'm not really disagreeing with you to be honest. I'm only saying that your views are the central idea of Marxism. Only Marxists believe in the conflict theory. I'm not a Marxist, but i do think socialism is the next most likely economic stage considering the current capitalist landscape. Whether it is the best path is what i don't know.
I'm a Marxist-Leninist, correct, but the point of Marxism is that it doesn't matter what individuals believe, Capitalism itself paves the way for Socialism just like Feudalism paved the way for Capitalism.
Hmm i don't know about that. Saying that this one theory explains social change is kinda restrictive. There are other valid ideas that aren't the conflict theory that might also result in social change. Think of idealist theories such as Hegel's dialectical process which involves a thesis and antithesis. These theses eventually contradict each other to form a synthesis which eventually becomes its own thesis and vice versa.
I just like to keep an open mind about this stuff, as i don't think social change boils down to just one theory.
I find this reply very strange because it's the core point of Marxism that it's dialectical but materialist. It has a lot of forebears, but Hegel is the most direct and obvious of them.
-- Engels, Socialism: Utopian and Scientific
If we believe that the universe fundamentally makes sense, then it must stem from that that it can all be explained on the same terms. Furthermore, within a domain, the extent to which a theory is unable to explain some part of that domain is the extent to which it either fails or is in-utero just a component of a larger theory whose other parts can cover those other areas. Not only can social change boil down to one theory, if you believe we live in an interconnected, logical world, it must boil down to one theory. Obviously there are many competitors for that title, and none of them are yet developed enough to properly claim it, but it is a legitimate and even a necessary title.
Edit: Sorry for piling on about the dialectics part, I see Cowbee did go over it later. fwiw I think he didn't represent materialism fairly, but part of why I included the Engels quote is because I think he does represent Hegelian idealism and its fundamental problem (How can this dialectic of humans -- material beings -- take place in the world of ideas?) fairly.
Fwiw, i was only spewing things i vaguely remembered from that one sociology course i took, so i was bound to misspeak. Thank you for your insight.
Idealism is wrong, though, so focusing on it is useless IMO.
Now that's where we disagree strongly. You criticize it but have provided no points to debunk it.
The notion that ideas create matter, rather than the opposite, is anti-scientific.
I guess we can agree to disagree
Do you believe ideas to create matter? Am I misunderstanding you?
Marx has the best content on the topic, shit is so good it triggers daddy owners to this day lol
I kinda like Marx sooo...
I would not say I like some dead guy... But his work is foundational for any self respecting adult imho
With out Understanding these concepts you are ain't fucking operating
Also, elites study him closely and a lot of the regime behavior is actually designed to suppress workers based on his writings.
Ohh the irony.
People will find ways to accrue wealth and power even if you change the rules of the game. Sometimes people on this platform make it sound like socialism or communism can solve our problems. but it's not that simple.
You're right, Marxists don't describe a Utopia but the natural progression of the Mode of Production.
Brainwashed since birth. GI Joe had the American Express slogan in an episode ("never leave home without it."). Alvin and the Chipmunks had a story about the Berlin Wall propagandizing communism. All the bad guys in Cobra have accents.
This shit is vile and it was on my morning cartoons.
Often because they're profiting from it themselves.
Living in denial is easy to continue doing and widely encouraged, while being very hard to overcome.
Because communism ≠ utopia. I only hate on shitty billionaires and ones that used shady methods to amass their wealth.
Blaming individuals produced by the system and not the system itself is strange. That's like saying the IDF isn't the problem, the soldiers are.
That's a fair critique. I don't like the capitalism we currently practice. I prefer a blend of socialism and capitalism - a social democracy if you will. I don't hate large corporations per se. I do hate those who commoditize basic necessities such as healthcare and housing. This is where i believe there should be no privatisation.
Social Democracy isn't a blend of Capitalism and Socialism, it's Capitalism with social safety nets.
Either way, what you describe maintains accumulation and monopolization, which results in more privitization and disparity, which we see in the Nordic Countries. There are no static systems.
So what does a blend of capitalism and socialism look like to you? I'm saying that sectors which can lead to unfair control over necessary resources should be solely controlled by the government.
And you say monopolization. Monopolization of what exactly? I don't think you care too much for the monopolization of the gaming industry or the video streaming industry do you?
Also, you emphasize wealth concentration. What exactly do you dislike about it? Especially considering that under a social democracy wealth is only at that point luxury since there is welfare available.
There isn't really such thing as a "blend," systems are either controlled by the bourgeoisie or proletariat. A socialist country with a large market sector is still socialist, a Capitalist country with a large public sector is still Capitalist. I recommend reading Socialism Developed China, not Capitalism.
Monopolization paves the way for socialization. Large, monopolist syndicates make themselves open to central planning and democratic control.
Wealth concentration leads to influence, which results in further privitization and erosion of social safety nets, like we see in the declining Nordic Countries.
Interesting. I still disagree with the impossibility of "blends", but i will take a look at that book you recommended. Thank you for the conversation.
No problem! Let me know if you have any questions.
I don't know if billionaires are the product of capitalism per se. Billionaires are people who have found out how to exploit the current system the best. In a socialistic society there are plenty of opportunities for corruption and exploitation of the working class. The rules are just a bit different. Billionaires definitely will defend capitalism since it's how they're currently winning the game, but they'll adapt as soon as they need to as well. That or the winners will be a different group of people. Either way, the most powerful will always look for ways to consolidate even more power.
I suggest you read Marx, I can make some recommendations if you like.
Can you name a billionaire who doesn't match that description?
How about celebrities and not shitty CEOs. I'm generalizing towards multimillionaires as well as there aren't that many billionaires. Unless the hate is specifically towards billionaires which I don't think is the case.
However, i would put money on the off chance that there is at least one billionaire who wasn't shady about their wealth accumulation - think Steve Jobs. Unless you consider holding companies to be shady.
I just took what you put out there. Generally, I'm skeptical that celebrities will really withstand scrutiny, since they tend to be supported by production crew and lesser-paid artists (whether in music or movies) who get regularly screwed over. Perhaps you can make an okay argument with athletes despite them also being held up by the pipeline from the notoriously exploitative college sports industry, playing in stadiums that are mostly damaging to the city, doing merchandising produced from sweatshops, etc.
But I don't really care about those arguments. The reason I don't care is that the conversation is based on an obscurantist metric, that being income. Any decent anti-capitalist is not mainly concerned with how much money someone gets or has, but their relationship to the means of production. That is, they are concerned with whether this person subsists by owning or subsists by working. You displayed what I would consider a good intuition by shifting from CEOs (who generally subsist by owning) to celebrities (who at least kind of subsist by working). It seems somewhat plausible to me that there would be very wealthy athletes, say, in a socialist state, because their job requires a lot of work and, at the top levels, having the talent to accomplish what they can accomplish is rare!
If a machine produces a thousand cubes but also produces at least one octahedron, what would you describe the function of the machine as being?
When I think of Steve Jobs, I think of someone who put a lot of money and dedication into PR.
As a starting point if you believe that, here's an article that lightly goes over some of his controversies (ignore points 4 and 10). And here's one that I think is somewhat more interesting that incidentally demonstrates how dependent he was on exploitation of the third world.
Owning a company is just a legal status, it's what you do with it that matters. If what you do with it just happens to be amassing more wealth than many, many people could obtain in a lifetime of labor, you probably didn't get there with clean hands.
I want to say that i appreciate your nuance on the subject. You have raised many good points, and i will take a lot of what you have said into consideration in my future discussions on the topic.
I also want to give kudos on your shift from focus on income to more the relationship with that income which i agree can create problems especially when it comes to power imbalances. The overfocus on the income is as you put it "obscurantist".
You raise a very good point here as well. One which makes sense with your analogy.
I've also gone through the articles you posted, and there's some pretty eye-opening stuff in there.
I guess this is in some ways an admittal of defeat. I do not know whether i completely subscribe to a "communism is the next best". I think i still need to educate myself more on this topic.
I'm happy I could be helpful!
There's no need to claim defeat or victory, we're just talking; Success in communication is determined by the extent to which we are able to understand each other, and I think we did alright.
I can't claim to represent any perspective but my own, but the text that really helped me to begin to see things differently was Socialism: Utopian and Scientific. Feel free to DM me/necropost here if there's anything I can help with.
Thanks man. I'll be sure to hit you up if i need help with anything!
Why give the regime whores a pass? They play a role within the system to pacify the plebs. They are not by any stretch on the peasant team.
Sure some deff stood tall. Carlin is an example I can stand behind but rest of them esp modern ones are just pathetic sell out.
Seeing Jon cena and one of the clown ba players apologizing to China for $$$
Fucking disgusting
Can you provide an example of one who didn't?
I guess there some celebrities now in that club... But I can't even get behind these regime whores. They have no solidarity with the people from which they leech
ITT: A lot of people answering for people who have diametrically opposed views to them.
Interesting question. I don't think I've ever defended either. I've also only lived in capitalist countries, so I have no personal experience with other economic systems.
They don't have to balls to think for themselves.
Liberalism doesn't exist because of moral failures of individuals, but because the Mode of Production supports the laws, ideology, art, culture, etc. that exist from it.
Some people think they are part of the club, rest don't know better
Brainwashing.
I defend capitalism because it is the most equitable and productive economic system that has ever existed, lifting more people out of poverty than ever before.
Free markets create space for those who don’t fit in. As an autistic person, I appreciate a world where I can find a way to survive other than convincing a committee that I deserve to exist.
I don’t deserve billionaires per se, but I have nothing against their existence and I think that a billionaire under capitalism is more fair and more likely to have fairly and productively achieved their wealth than a billionaire under any other system.
And if you don’t think the other systems have billionaires, you’re blind.
Under a free market, one gets rich by providing value. Economic relations are mutually consensual. That’s the definition.
What is called “capitalism” these days is, generally speaking, the places where the free market has broken down. Slaves aren’t a free market scenario. Only having one available job isn’t a free market scenario. Big corporations controlling the government to prevent their competition from surviving or arising isn’t a free market scenario.
All the “worst aspects of capitalism” that people complain about are exactly the aspects of the world that most resemble capitalism’s alternatives like anarchy and centralized command economies.
We need more free market, not less. We need to let people buy a pack of cigarettes and then sell them for $2 a pop to make a profit, not kill them for doing this.
The anti-capitalist hate is the result of decades of anti-working class propaganda that has made generations of people dedicated to destroying the very thing that gives them hope and possibility in the world.
Biggest psy op in history, as Marx himself would be the first to recognize if he were alive and commenting today. I defend capitalism NOT because I want to fit in, but because it is the right thing to do.
Incorrect, Socialism gets that honor, the PRC is responsible. Read Socialism Developed China, Not Capitalism.
This is an absurd strawman of central planning.
Even more absurd. Individuals get wealthy by exploiting laborers. Economic relations are enforced by the system itself, not consent. The Laborers must work to not starve.
Yep, Capitalism defeats itself. You can't turn the clock back.
Correct, Capitalism socializes itself and paves the way for central planning.
An absurd comparison and a strange call to go back in time to less developed Capitalism.
Capitalism's decay.
Marx would be elated to be proven correct.
Talk about a hot take haha
Are you denying that the vast majority of people commenting on this are against capitalism?
That's not how in-read these comments.
People wouldn't be bitching if everything was good.
Look at boomers, shit worked out for them.
So they larp whatever regime whores on teevee say and then they go around spouting that shot as gospel.
I’m talking about all comments everywhere. Everyone commenting in all fora.
People bitch about capitalism everywhere all the time. It is the zeitgeist of our time that capitalism is bad.
… we’d be in a utopia. There are problems because it is inherent to the nature of reality that problems are going to exist.
Fewer economic problems exist under capitalism than in nature, or in any other economic system that’s been tried. Comparing our situation to a situation with no problems is fruitless.
A free market, ie situations where both parties must consent before economic cooperation happens, is the most productive arrangement of economic decision-making. It produces the least starvation, the least anxiety, the least disease, the least war, the least violation of people’s rights.
If wealth is accumulated due to merit, why does wealth tend to accumulate within families? Are these families somehow more meritorious than the rest of the population? Is it perhaps the multi-generational connections made in industry providing additional benefit to those families?
As for the free market, the FDA was formed because bakers in the free market realized that sawdust was cheaper than flour. The free market also requires perfect information to function correctly, but even if you have that how will it help if there is no better regulation. Once upon a time the only kind of match you could buy were made with white phosphorus, despite how dangerous it was to work with. It took regulation to switch to red phosphorus, even though the expense was only slightly higher.
lacking multi-generational connections is still a pretty rosy picture of disadvantage. Statistically "unmeritorious" parents are far more likely to have their child suffer from malnutrition due to lack of money and neglect due to the parents working 2 jobs or having substance abuse issues. If the country has private schools, they won't have access to them and due to living in a low-wealth area their public schools will have a disproportionately high amount of other neglected and abused kids which makes everything harder.
What's your take on this video?
'Is capitalism actually reducing poverty?' w/ Richard Wolff
https://youtu.be/Co4FES0ehyI
The simple fact is that capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty historically than anything else.
Is capitalism a perfect system? Of course it isn't. But it's the best one we've got.
This is patently false, the PRC holds that record and it was due to Socialism, not Capitalism.
Lol. Firstly, China claims they've eradicated absolute poverty. Do you really believe that?
Secondly, China has opened its markets to the world and allowed a ton of private ownership and private companies to take on the global markets.
The only thing that isn't capitalist about China is the word "Communist" in the ruling party.
Yes, why do you not?
Yes. Mao misjudged the level of productive forces and tried to establish Communism through fiat. Deng opened the markets to foreign Capital, where the CPC allows businesses to grow in a controlled and careful manner before "harvesting them" into the public sector once they grow sufficiently. The majority of the economy is publicly owned, operated, and planned.
This is an absurd statement that could only be made by someone unfamiliar with Marxism. The presence of markets do not mean that the system isn't Socialist. The economy is socialized by degree, not by decree! You can't establish Communism through fiat, which is why the CPC has been absorbing more Private corporations into the Public sector over time, and exerting more control and planning on the Private sector.
Read Socialism Developed China, Not Capitalism.
This is a country where COVID originated and with a population of 1.4 billion, yet apparently only 5,272 people have died. They're not great at telling the truth and are masters at propaganda.
The profits from companies are retained by the companies. Isn't the idea of socialism that the workers own the means of production and no companies profit? The Chinese economy is set up the exact opposite.
They took much stronger stances against COVID than the US. Not sure what numbers they actually have, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were low.
You have a fundamental misconception of what Socialism is. It isn't an ideal to be forced on a society, but the result of markets coalescing and centralizing, to be planned. Additionally, the majority of the PRC's economy is in the public sector. Private Property is abolished and absorbed by degree, not decree.
Read Socialism Developed China, Not Capitalism. I already recommended it, and you have not read it. Read it, it only takes 20 minutes.
TBH... It was due to free market reforms. Which in of itself is not capitalism though but normies can't tell the difference.
They weren't "free"-market reforms. A good, 21 minute read is the article Socialism Developed China, Not Capitalism. The PRC brought back markets because they tried to achieve Communism through fiat, without letting markets adequately coalesce into monopolist syndicates ripe for socialization. The Dengist Reforms brought stability to growth and prevented recession, but the bulk of the economy is publicly owned and centrally planned.
Not true. Here you go..
https://youtu.be/Co4FES0ehyI
Regarding capitalism, in reality, it is the best system we’ve seen so far.
Yes, theoretically other systems could be better for the general public. But in reality, they never have been.
Socialism has been proven to do far more for its citizens than Capitalism. Capitalism is just a phase in development, Socialism supercedes it.
Did something supercede Socialism in Russia around the years 1988 to 1991?
It's important to note that the USSR didn't build into Capitalism, but collapsed into it. The USSR was dissolved from the top-down, not due to structural failures and instability, but due to opportunism.
There was a lot that went into the "murder" of the USSR, and numerous mistakes along the way of its development that were inevitable as history's first Socialist State, but the idea that Capitalism grew out of Socialism is not correct. When I say "supercede," I quite literally mean that Capitalism's mechanisms naturally lead to Socialism over time.
Who told you that? Why do you believe it? Where and when are you citing as the best so far?
Life experience.
Do you want some salt with that boot?
No, but do you have sriracha?
Please cite, with examples from reality, a better system.
Bootlicker
Understood.
Please cite, with examples from reality, better systems.
1940s American socialism. Which lead to the greatest income distribution for American families
Strong example!
I’m curious if we would call this time period socialism or capitalism being held in check.
The era of high taxes on high income was definitely beneficial to more Americans than today’s low tax structure.
Billionaires and capitalism isn't the same problem. We have billionaires because anti-monopoly committee isn't working :) that's a main reason why they're existing :)
In late-stage capitalism, they are.
because the idea of being super rich is awesome and i want to be super rich. so much bills i wouldnt have a thought about 😂
For every person who is "super rich", thousands, if not millions, will go through strife and unfair hardship
yep
Well you are not going to be super rich, and even if you were, there probably would be tons of people who have to live in hell 24/7 in order for you to be super rich.
why are so many people arguing with my comment as if im not answering the question OP asked
Regulation is stripping freedom from people. We want freedom, we can’t regulate people.
I think that’s an argument.
Except without regulation businesses will do what they want and that usually isn't the best thing for society.
We need a well regulated capitalistic society
Exactly. But the people I favor of billionaires don’t care.
Implied in your question is the notion that a billionaire or corporation can never be right about a given topic. That just isn’t true.
Also, on any given topic people will have differing opinions for different reasons. Having an opinion that happens to align with a billionaire or corporation isn’t the same as defending those entities. Often you’re stuck siding with one of those entities no matter what side of an issue you fall on.
I like Mark Cuban’s efforts to lower prescription costs. Does that mean I’m siding with a billionaire? If you don’t agree with me should I be able to dismiss your opinion as support for the pharmaceutical industry?
Life isn’t black and white. Opinions can be nuanced and complex. I rarely see any comments defending companies for the pure love of capitalism. Reducing people’s opinions to an easy-to-villainize stance is just that – reductive. It doesn’t aid in meaningful conversation.
Lack of good examples of countries that are successful without being capitalist?
Pretty ubiquitously non-capitalist countries have a pretty poor track record.
I often hear the phrase, capitalism is terrible, but it's the least bad of the terrible options.
As an aside, I'm arguing here for capitalism, not billionaires. Supporting capitalism isn't an endorsement of a complete lack of controls and safeguards.
There are many. The USSR, PRC, Cuba, Vietnam, Laos, etc. Have all drastically improved on previous conditions, achieving large increases in life expectancy, democratization, literacy rates, access to healthcare, housing, education, and more. Read Blackshirts and Reds.
This is false. What are you specifically tracking? Freedom for the bourgeoisie?
The phrase is typically used to describe democracy, not Capitalism.
It doesn't matter what you support, the Superstructure, ie laws and safeguards, comes primarily from the Base, ie the Mode of Production.
Markets move themselves regardless of people's will towards centralized syndicates, monopolies over production. These make themselves ripe for siezure and central planning, markets themselves prepare the proletariat for running a socialized economy as they coalesce over time. This is why Marx says the bourgeoisie produces "above all else, its own gravediggers." There is no maintaining Capitalism, it eliminates itself over time.
USSR starved ethnic minorities to industrialize. How is this success? or is that the price you can accept?
I'm confused, do you think the USSR's economy was powered by starvation of ethnic minorities, and through this magic starvation power industrialization could occur? What point are you trying to make?
I cant tell if this for real....
But so we are clear... USSR had undesirable minority farmers who didn't like collectivization.
They need hard currency to buy tooling and equipment to industrialize.
They took all crops from these farmers, sold it on International markets and kicked industrialization into high gear...
Millions died. So yes USSR industrial at expense of millions of lives. I don't think there is much dispute here.
Do you think Kulaks were an ethnicity, and not a bourgeois class? Collectivization of agriculture was poorly done, yes, but it wasn't what powered industrialization. This is a misanalysis of the USSR.
Weren't they ukrainian?
I don't think kazakhs were ever called kulaks, not sure tho
And here comes genocide apologia ... Again
You're conflating disparate factors. Ukraine was the breadbasket of the USSR, that doesn't mean there was a targeted famine towards them.
Kulaks were a group of bourgeois farmers that opposed collectivization. Many of these Kulaks burned their own crops and killed their livestock to avoid handing it over to the Red Army and the Communists.
The famine in Ukraine and parts of Russia was a separate but linked matter. The Kulak resistance to collectivization was multiplied by drought, flood, and pests, making an already low harvest spiral into crisis. The idea that it was an intentional famine and therefore a genocide actually originated in Volkischer Beobatcher, a Nazi news outlet, before spreading to the west. It isn't "genocide apologia," it was a horrible tragedy caused by a combination of human and environmental factors.
Genocide denial spotted
The formatting is admittedly not the most readable, but this is the best article I have seen on the topic.
Which part do you disagree with? This isn't genocide denial, not even western historians believe the USSR's 1930s famine was genocide. Please explain what you mean, before resorting to libel.
While scholars are in consensus that the cause of the famine was man-made,[10][11] it remains in dispute whether the Holodomor was directed at Ukrainians and whether it constitutes a genocide, the point of contention being the absence of attested documents explicitly ordering the starvation of any area in the Soviet Union.[12] Some historians conclude that the famine was deliberately engineered by Joseph Stalin to eliminate a Ukrainian independence movement.[c] Others suggest that the famine was primarily the consequence of rapid Soviet industrialisation and collectivization of agriculture. A middle position, held for example by historian Andrea Graziosi, is that the initial causes of the famine were an unintentional byproduct of the process of collectivization but once it set in, starvation was selectively weaponized and the famine was "instrumentalized" and amplified against Ukrainians as a means to punish Ukrainians for resisting Soviet policies and to suppress their nationalist sentiments.[13]
Straight from Wikipedia, are you accusing them of genocide denial too? Archival evidence points to the second, it was a consequence of collectivization and the reaction against collectivization, combined with natural factors.
USSR deliberately stole farmers food as result of which millions starved.
People who don't okay ball were executed on the spot. Peasants were not permitted to leave their towns, people who attempted were executed.
Moscow was petitioned to stop and they refused.
People can make their own conclusions.
All the other bullshit you are spinning is trying to undermine these facts which are suppoted by historical records.
USSR even got a NYT regime whore to tell American public nobody is starving because it was getting a bit awkward on global stage due to the reports coming out from Ukraine.
Mind sharing evidence? The USSR tried to collectivize the bourgeois farms run by the Kulaks, yes, they didn't try to starve anyone intentionally.
There was resistance from the Bourgeoisie, yes. The Kulaks resisted, often violently, in the middle of drought, flood, and pestilent famine.
I did not once undermine this. I, in fact, directed you to a wikipedia article affirming what I had said. Are you calling Wikipedia genocide deniers too?
Mind sharing a source? Western media tended to share the German narrative, the aforementioned origin of the "genocide" stance on the famine coming from the Nazi press was repeated in Britain and other western countries.
This is facts. But tankies will downvote
Because it's easier than defending socialism or communism
That's only because capitalists are deaf to reason and demonstrable facts.
Okay lil bro 😆
The "Capitalists are stupid and anticapitalists are smart" comments are so adorable lollll