Not most, technically - wiki says 0-14 make 44% of population. But this article breaks down the 70% further by saying 44% killed were 14 or under, so it's pretty much bang on for indicating that they're killing Palestinians at random.
And if 44% are children, that leaves 56% as adults. Cut that roughly in half to 28% for a 50/50 male/female split you get 72% (28 and 44) of the population is "women and children". If that's accurate, the title would be better stated as "Isreal kills indiscriminately".
Random is giving them way too much. Those are targeted numbers
No they aren't. Most of every population is women and children.
Its not random when you tell a population to go to a place for safety and then you bomb them when they are concentrated in that place.
Civilians are being killed b3cause ha,as is using civilians as shields.
Yah sure. I’m sure when they shoot a civilian it’s because hamas hiding under their dress. People need to stop believing in movies just because hamas is bad doesn’t make Israel the good guy. There doesn’t seem to be a good guy in this fight. Also look at how Israel has treated them over the years is it really hard to see why organizations like hamas have sprung up?
I agree that both sides in this are shitbags. But don't excuse Hamas's war crimes.
Nah, I expect militaries to not bomb indiscriminately. Because that's a war crime.
You expect too much of the IDF.
You seem to expect too little
Ya, perhaps. Time has taught my optimistic ass to be a pessimist where the IDF is involved. Or conservatives. Or... you know... People. ;)
Unfortunately, that's just war.
There never was, and there never will be a moral army in war.
Israel proved they could target precision strike an Iranian general in a single room.
There is in fact an expectation for the military to not bomb indiscriminately, except when in the case of Gaza they choose to bomb indisciminately.
Join the IDF and see for yourself then. Why do you think there is a crisis of morale in the IDF? There was an interview from an IDF soldier talking how emotionally taxing it was for him to drive a bulldozer over dozens of people. Even Israeli news points out how horrific the average actions of the IDF are.
But he still did it. It must have been so hard for him hope he can get over the initial damage. Maybe the other oh wait they’re dead.
I mean, sure, but this assumes that the killing is completely indiscriminate.
It is, but it's important that you're clear on that
They're obliterating entire cities, so yeah.
What fraction is under 18? It's hard to tell by looking at the graph. I want to calculate what ratio of combatants to civilians killed a number of 70% implies.
"Yeah but women and girls will give birth to terrorists, and boys will become terrorists. These are just preemptive-preemptive strikes... Historians may call this genocide but we disagree semantically". - Israeli government probably
Mossad would be proud of this statement.
Not probably. "Erase the memory of
them. Erase them, their families, mothers and children." says the head of their air force.
Actually responsibility of civilian deaths are on those who use civilians as human shields
I don’t get that mindset. Why is it ok to shoot through people to get to the bad guys?
If the police did that when criminals took hostages it wouldn’t be acceptable so why is it acceptable for Israel?
It is a talking point meant to engage you and waste your time, it doesn't have to make sense. This is conservative playbook 101.
It is a demonstration of good faith vs bad faith. If only you explain it to the person properly then they will change their mind? Nope. They're just energy/effort vampires trying to exhaust you.
You've got your education right on that one. Learned the hard way perhaps?
You don’t know what you are talking about
But they are taking precautions, you guys act like they are doing it deliberately without precautions
"In war, we don't have time to incriminate every target. So we're prepared to take the margin of error of using AI, risking collateral damage and civilian deaths (...) and live with it,"
The army also decided during the first weeks of the war that, for every junior Hamas operative that Lavender marked, it was permissible to kill up to 15 or 20 civilians; in the past, the military did not authorize any “collateral damage” during assassinations of low-ranking militants.
When it came to targeting alleged junior militants marked by Lavender, the army preferred to only use unguided missiles, commonly known as “dumb” bombs (in contrast to “smart” precision bombs), which can destroy entire buildings on top of their occupants and cause significant casualties. “You don’t want to waste expensive bombs on unimportant people — it’s very expensive for the country and there’s a shortage [of those bombs],”
So if a terrorist broke in to your home, locked you, your wife, and your kids in the basement, then launched a rocket from your bedroom window, you'd be 100% OK with the IDF turning your house in to rubble and your family in to compost? Really? Get a fucking grip, buddy.
The Hutu's used the term "cockroaches" to dehumanize. The Nazi's used "rats". But at least those are living creatures. But "a shield", calling a human being a shield, as if they're an inanimate object meant to be struck, as if they're a nuisance that you're meant to get through to hit your target? Calling these civilians "human shields" is a new low for dehumanizing language, and Israel defenders don't realize what kind of monster everyone else sees them as. So wild that it's considered acceptable language by mainstream culture, fucking terrifying.
It’s considered acceptable language by mainstream culture because it's a legitimate interpretation of reality.
It's not reasonable to say Jews are literally rats. It is a reasonable to say civilian Gazans are used as a shield by Hamas. What is dehumanizing, sometime literally, is using people as shields.
I think it's more dehumanizing to be the one who kills those people. What the hell is wrong with people? Is murder suddenly okay then?
My gut reaction is to say - I don't know, if murder isn't okay, how come I only see people here criticizing Israel and not Hamas or Hezbollah?
When people assign blame only on one side, they're encouraging the other side to do more bad things. This applies to both the "Free Palestine!!!" and "Antisemitism!!!" camps.
Anyway, I just wanted to point out that the reason people are saying that Hamas are using Palestinians as human shields isn't a Hasbarah plot to dehumanize Palestinians, but because Hamas are using Palestinians as human shields. Could you explain why this seems to be controversial? Do people not agree that Hamas are using human shields, or do they think that pointing any criticism at anyone Palestinian is "pro-Israeli"?
Well people say Israel is in the right because they had people killed. Does that mean everyone in Gaza now has the right to do what ever the hell they want to Israel? Since the IDF has killed way more civilians then the attack did.
Well people say Israel is in the right because they had people killed.
And those people would be wrong. That doesn't contradict anything I said.
The reason why people are focusing on one side is because one side killed ~1200 while the other has killed ~44,000. It's like being a victim of a driveby shooting on 9/11 and complaining "Why is everyone only focusing on the Twin Towers?" The problem with pro-Israel supporters is that they somehow can't seeem to tell the difference between 1200 and 44,000, it's almost as if the 44,000 doesn't matter because they're Palestinian, and the 1200 matters more because they're Israeli. If Israel killed 1200 and then Hamas returned by killing 44,000, we'd be focusing on Hamas, but that isn't the case is it?
But wait for it, I can see the Hasbara talking point incoming - "Those are Hamas numbers." Well the 1200 is Israeli numbers, and everyone now realizes their numbers are lest trustful, because they're not the ones lying to the world and blocking independent investigative journalism. If you believe Israel is telling the truth, why not let in independent investigation?
Actually, 44,000 is about right for the IDF estimations.
Anyway, you're saying it's a numbers game? Let's say Israel were to round up 1,199 random Gazans and shoot them in the street, people would be saying "Well, Israel killed less people, so Hamas should stop their aggression"?
If Israel killed 1200 and then Hamas returned by killing 44,000, we’d be focusing on Hamas
Sorry, but I doubt that. Right now there are at least two other major conflicts, each with more casualties (the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the Sudanese civil war), yet the interest in Lemmy and like minded places is like that meme with the drowning kid and the skeleton (inb4 someone accuses me of "antisemitism" - I'm pointing out that Israel is singled out, not accusing anyone of anything).
"But these other conflicts are okay, why can't Israel do one?" I fail to see the comparison with these other conflicts, where neither has 2 million people in a giant open air concentration camp being starved of food, water, electricty, sanitation, and then getting bombed by US/UK sold weapons. Yes those conflicts are terrible, the Sudanese civil war is terrible with over 60,000 deaths so far, we just want Gaza to not top that as the Lancet reckons Gaza is facing at least 186,000 deaths - https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltext - The problem is there can't be an accurate count because Israel won't let independent investigators in, also unlike the other conflicts you mentioned where independent investigations ARE allowed in. The fact that you'd point out these other conflicts, only to compare Israel to them as being MORE dishonest, doesn't help Israels cause or your own. No matter what you say, you won't convince us to accept genocide when it's happening to Palestinians or anyone else.
No matter what you say, you won’t convince us to accept genocide when it’s happening to Palestinians or anyone else.
Oh, OK, thanks, that was genuinely helpful. If I understood correctly, you think I'm trying to convince you that "Israel = good", so you mentally add "and that's why Israel is in the right" after what I said, and are replying to that instead of what I actually said. I'm absolutely not trying to convince anyone Israel is in the right here, or that they aren't committing genocide. Not saying I agree or disagree with you on the subject, just saying that's not what I'm talking about. This started out as me pointing out that the reason people are saying Hamas are using civilians as human shields is because that's what's they're doing. Now I'm trying to understand why people focus so much on Gaza and are giving Hamas a free pass for what's going on there.
I fail to see the comparison with these other conflicts
It wasn't a comparison. I took the criteria you gave (number of casualties) and applied it to other situations. Which seemed to be productive because now you've given me new criteria. The only one that's unique is western support. I get that - as (probably?) a citizen of a western country, you don't want your tax money financing genocide. But that's more a criticism against your government, and, more importantly to my interest in the conversation, it doesn't explain the visceral hate people seem to have towards Israel in particular.
Sudanese civil war is terrible with over 60,000 deaths so far, we just want Gaza to not top that
That's what I'm asking - why do you "just want Gaza to not top that" and don't seem to care that much about what's going on Sudan? (I'm talking about the discourse among the, and I'm hoping I'm using the correct term, progressive left).
The problem is there can’t be an accurate count because Israel won’t let independent investigators in
According to your own source, there can't be an accurate account because "Collecting data is becoming increasingly difficult for the Gaza Health Ministry due to the destruction of much of the infrastructure."
As the IDF has done. So you're saying that the IDF is a terrorist org, right? Right??
I say it. Yes it is! If it commits terrorism to attack his enemies then yes it's a terrorist org.
All religious ethnic based terrorist orgs have their reason, they all believe they are doing the right thing.
In the case of religious based they all believe to be the children's of god and His favourite people.
What makes it a terrorist org isn't reason or right or wrong sides, what makes it terrorist is the way it attacks it's enemies to achieve their goals.
So hell yes they are terrorists because of they have done.
If a group of militants decided to have a meeting in the basement of a fully occupied apartment building in NYC, you believe it would be ethical for the US military to destroy the building and kill hundreds of people in their homes?
Meaning about 30% of the population are males over 14.
So I guess Israel isn't disproportionately murdering women and children, theyre just killing everyone. So genocide.
By eliminating the next generation(s) and the females in fertile age, it is more effective at wiping out a population than engaging directly with it.
This is valid for getting rid of vermin, capable of explosive breeding.
No need to guess what the results will be when applied to human beings.
This is a weird way to phrase this.
Dehumanization works because many of the popular cultures around the world treat non-humans terribly. As we're talking about the "cradle" of Western civilization, we're talking about pastoralists especially.
Nice nick name.
Yeah except no. Let's not.
It got a reaction out of you because if the way it is phrased, didn't it? That was the objective.
Sadly enough, those who triggered this disaster think in these same terms. And look where it has led.
Yeah well I think I'd be more impressed if you extended empathy rather than more callous disregard for humans
That is a fair criticism. I respect it.
I'm not subtracting my own empathy towards those people by choosing to denounce their aggressors through harsh words. I'm throwing vitriole towards their aggressors.
I get this and this is part of the basis of satire, right?
But the more speech is focused on the dark side, the more our brains focus on the dark because that's how they work. Eg "Don't think of a bear," vs "think of a duck." But it's ultimately your writing to style as you'd like
In case anyone forgot from autumn 2023:
On Saturday, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said that Israelis were united in their fight against Hamas, whom he described as an enemy of incomparable cruelty. “They are committed to completely eliminating this evil from the world,” Netanyahu said in Hebrew. He then added: “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember.”
As others quickly pointed out, God commands King Saul in the first Book of Samuel to kill every person in Amalek, a rival nation to ancient Israel. “This is what the Lord Almighty says,” the prophet Samuel tells Saul. “‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”
I guess the point you're making is that this essentially shows that Israel is targeting any palestinian, not just hamas. That's genocide.
Yup.
Sounds so much nicer to say "killing everyone" instead of "genocide" right?
Is that just because 70% of people are women and children or is there bias?
The math leans towards the former, but when the two hypotheses suggested by the data are "we are actively and selectively targeting noncombatants" and "we just don't give half a shit who we're killing," in a sane world you'd be universally branded as "the baddies" in the conflict.
They're bad I just want a better understanding of what's happening so I can more accurately hate Israel
I wish there was a way to convince them that murdering your neighbors then stealing their land is fucking evil.
Sorry. Not casting aspersions on you, just despairing at the situation.
I would consider the latter to be depraved indifference, but the former to be maliciously genocidal.
Of the two, the former is much, much worse than the latter. And with everything being a spectrum of some kind, the former is much further along the path to being evil than the latter.
With that said, there is no single person pushing all the buttons in Israel; as such, I am sure there are people in the Israeli command structure that represent the former much more than the latter, and vice versa.
But if there is one characterization I feel is wholly appropriate: on Oct 6, Israel looked at the evil of Hamas and said, “hold my beer and watch this.” And boy, did they ever deliver.
44% children, 26% women, 30% men. Gaza is about half under 18, so that's nearly randomly killing people. That said, these are only confirmed fatalities, so presumably susceptible to bias.
Why is Hamas using their own people as shields? Why did the people let Hamas rule?
Why did the people let Hamas rule?
I know you really think this is a defense of Israel, but I encourage you to actually find the answer.
Do I have to ask the Illuminati? Or aljazeera?
I engaged in good faith and you continue to be a shithead. Bye.
I wouldn't call that good faith, but nice try.
How about Brigadier General Yitzhak Segev, the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s.
Oh look - a New York Times reporter saved us the trouble. Turns out that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who also corroborated this statement).
...there's that, and the whole military occupation to maintain an apartheid state in an open air concentration camp, the decades-long annexation campaign. You'll be surprised to learn that people find that kind of thing upsetting.
Thank you for providing the first real information here.
But the last paragraph doesn't sit right with me, the things hamas did is not resistance. And also you make it sound like the Palestinians didn't chose "Hamas" but in the end you try to relativize what happened on 7th of Oct as a result of "military occupation" etc.
So what now? Also I think its pointless to bring this up here, but seeing how people react across the world in terms of the terror atrocities, its quite clear on what side the palestianias stand on...on the wrong one. I am really sorry for people who ACTUALLY want to have a peaceful live, no matter what religion or origin.
The PLO were in power, Israel knew who Hamas were, and funded their rise to power (for what reason other than to manufacture the pretext for this genocide?), they also created and maintained the conditions that would motivate and justify violent resistance, so yes - Israel are responsible for Hamas.
In maintaining the horrible conditions I pointed to, Israel further motivated people to push back by any means necessary while giving them as little as possible to live for.
You don't get to tell us you want peace as you defend a genocide. You don't get to tell us about atrocities as the IDF gleefully document dozens per day, and you don't get to tell the people you're genociding that they're wrong.
With that all clarified, what would justifiable Palestinian self-defence look like, and do those principles apply equally to Israel?
So basically Hamas is an inside job in order for Israel to exterminate innocent people? And the reasoning for that is...? I guess 7th October was also a self made incident?
What's your explanation for Israel funding the terrorists' displacement of the secular moderates with predictable, deadly results?
What - you think Netanyahu cares about Israelis given his refusal of ceasefire after ceasefire and hostage exchange after hostage exchange? How quaint.
Seems straightforwardly clear that it was to manufacture the pretext for the current genocide.
Thats quite the "theory". Also I am still failing to see the motivation? "just kill some muslims" and sacrifice some of our own for that?
For the third time - why did Israel fund Hamas' displacement of the secular moderates with predictable results?
Kill the Palestinians, take their land - you know - exactly what they've been doing for decades, and were able to dramatically accelerate after October 7th.
Ah okay, Israel just wants more land... that is why they sacrifice their own people and kill "innocents". Sorry but no, I rather see the truth in it. And seemingly the world is also moving towards that. Lets see what Trump will do in that regard. :)
Why? Because it's so plain in sight that everybody knows about it? I doubt it.
Tell me why the people of Palestine voted for hamas (almost 20 years ago by the way).
If you don't know, look it up. If you don't care, that'll explain all I need to know.
Well, nice. Rape is no resistance.
I'm asking why they voted for hamas nearly 2 decades ago and you run to October 7th.
Fine, rape is no excuse for genocide then.
I'd say any claims about rape being a justification for genocide have lost their weight after Israelis protested punishment of IDF soldiers for rape of prisoners on the basis of "Palestinians deserving it". There are no moral arguments supporting begining, maintaining or continuing the genocide in Gaza.
Yes they can be that ignorant. Let’s stop pretending people are smart. The last 10 years has proven people are raging morons and proud of it.
I disagree - I think the majority know they're lying, and support the genocide - they're just cowards too gutless to say so.
You give these monsters any sort of push, and they start using Palestinian and Hamas interchangeably which really gives the game away... keep going, and they start screaming their support for wiping Palestine off the map.
I guess it's "nice" to confirm that they're still killing Palestinians at random.
Yeah, no shit
In the US those who abstained from voting or voted third party have sealed Gaza’s fate.
Who the hell do you think has been president for the entirety of this slaughter?
Neither of the candidates for election.
Right, that includes Trump. Its been a democrat funding and supporting this genocide the entire time. You hypocrites cant use these deaths to fuckin support democrats.
because Donald "I will let Netyanahu finish the job" Trump is somehow better for this. Get your head out of your ass lol
I agree that Donald Trump is much worse for the situation in Palestine and that it was a mistake for anybody to sit out because of what’s happening. But I think it also needs to be said that the Democrats didn’t really offer any alternative besides plausible deniability, and so it seems strange to me to pin the responsibility on the disengaged
He's been finishing the job just fine under Biden. I've gotten to the point where I can't honestly see what the difference is(in this particular issue). There was a time where wholesale annihilation and annexation was unacceptable but since that's cool can you point me to where exactly you think the Dems red line exists? Because it certainly seems to be beyond the ethnic cleansing of Gaza.
The difference is that Biden has not once come out to say "i will help neyyanahu flatten Gaza" and from what I've read has been criticising him (to the best of his old man abilities).
It sucks that U.S. kept sending weapons to Israel for one reason or another, but the key difference here is that with a democratic president you had a higher chance of getting thru.
Good luck getting Trump to listen to anything at all. And I guess good job for letting Trump take the president seat, not only will he help flatten Gaza (which Biden seemingly was doing anyway), but will also flatten women's rights in the U.S., will flatten healthcare and education, will flatten any climate change progress, and will let Russia flatten Ukraine.
An astounding failure for the entire world, just because your only issue was "b-but think of Gaza!"
I hope you're happy with your moral high ground because you decided to not vote for Genocide Kamala and instead let Destroy Everyone Trump win.
I hope you’re happy with your moral high ground because you decided to not vote for Genocide Kamala
There have been such astounding things said with a straight face this year.
Oh wow, you literally picked and chose.
To the best of his abilities my ass. Reflexively excusing his continued total support for Israel even after the election is delusional. It's pretty obvious that you had no chance of getting any different result from a Democrat on this issue than a Republican.
And getting mad at me about it is kind of pointless, as I live in Maryland's sixth and my vote for a Democrat house member is the only national vote that mattered (and in this case it really did matter). Despite that I did end up voting for Harris. Maybe you should get mad at the Dems morally bankrupt leadership instead of me.
I will get mad at the 15 million stay-at-home non-voters due to a single-issue before i consider getting mad at the Dems for not caressing these people on their single-issue.
I will get mad at the 15 million who never learned of the phrase "Lesser of two evils", who thought that by not voting they are making some sort of brave statement on morals.
Suck it up, there were 2 choices:
Genocide, with high chance of progress away from Genocide
Genocide with bonus destruction, and no chance of steering away from any of it
It's literally the trolley problem, and people that didn't vote just didn't pull the lever and have let mass destruction happen.
Your continued apologizing for genocide as the lesser of two evils after the election is as morally bankrupt as the Dem leadership that tried to sacrifice gazan lives for the Republican vote. And look at how well that worked out for them.
I am not apologizing genocide, I am simply criticising people that voted for Genocide + More by not going to vote at all.
The morally right choice was to reduce harm as much as possible, and that was only viable if voting with Kamala. By otherwise not voting or going independent (In a place like U.S. where an independent vote is basically a waste), you're just letting the fascism push more.
But again, these people can at least sleep easier at night knowing they didn't vote for anyone doing genocide. They simply facilitated genocide + everything bad to seep through and win.
Trying to only blame the dems for the civic duty failure of 15 million people is insane in my opinion. In other countries you just vote with the candidate you like the most, even if they won't see eye to eye with you on some issues, it's not some "oh I will only vote if these candidates win me over!". You either vote because you agree with someone ideologically, or you vote because there's Hitler on the ballot and Jesus Christ you do not want Hitler to win, even if the candidate you voted for will only give Israel more weapons. Otherwise you let Hitler win and now there are two genocides occuring instead of just one.
No, you're apologizing by drawing a fucking distinction for the Dems that does not exist. It just doesn't. I'll refer you to my original point: where is the red line for the Dems on Gaza?
Take a minute to read that headline again. You got Trump for this now, because you insisted to everyone to accept that headline, those deaths, that 'better than this' just isnt an option. You wouldnt permit people that care about life, that oppose genocide somewhere else to go. So they went nowhere, because genocide is not an option.
And yet accelerated genocide is the option that was chosen.
Look, I get the argument you're making. The problem is that it hinges entirely on accepting a premise that isn't based in reality. Progress, specifically as it relates to harm reduction, doesn't happen instantaneously. It never has. You take the wins you can get and then push for the next step. You can be mad about that, and I would argue that we all should be, but it's not going to change the way things work. In this case you've let idealism get in the way of actual tangible improvement. Even if you disagree with that characterization you can't dispute the fact that you've at least helped shut the door on the potential for improvement. If you can find a way to rationalize that in your head to make you feel like the good guy then I understand why you would want to take that path, but do you honestly believe the people of Gaza take solace in the fact that you had good intentions? I'd wager they don't give a shit how you frame this in your mind. They're just thinking about what a Trump presidency means for the future of this conflict and that isn't good by any stretch of the imagination.
This is deranged. Progress? Improvement? What did Kamala say she would do differently? Did she say she'd stop sending weapons and financial assistance?
Even if you disagree with that characterization you can't dispute the fact that you've at least helped shut the door on the potential for improvement.
What did Kamala say she would do differently?
You cant keep talking about progress and improvement without any signs of either. The only potential for improvement we have is a progressive candidate
I believe she would have been marginally better than Biden but, as you continuously refuse to acknowledge because it completely defeats the point you are trying to make, that is not what we're discussing here. Trump is indisputably going to be worse than either of them and that's what you have chosen to support through inaction. You can talk in circles around that fact as much as you like but it won't change reality.
You were the one that brought up progress and improvement. But those words have meanings, and its not keeping things the same. Things are currently unacceptable for a lot of people, and everyone here told them to hush up about demanding better. And so they hushed up and stayed home.
Netanyahu was filibustering the peace process hoping for Trump to win while he ran out the clock. If he, like Putin, were forced to deal with Harris instead of Trump over the next four years his attitude would've changed after the results were announced.
Filibuster? Man that asshole doesnt have a filibuster, he has absolutely zero authority over whether or not we send him weapons and financial assistance.
Why would his attitude have to change with Harris vs his current attitude with Biden? Did she say she was gonna stop sending weapons and money? She was pretty adamant about being a continuation of Biden as far as I saw
Why would his attitude have to change with Harris vs his current attitude with Biden?
Because Biden and Harris and various other Democrats wanted peace and were genuinely concerned about the people in the region caught up in the conflict. Trump gives absolutely no shits about any of it and neither do Republicans who will allocate the funds because that's how our government works.
Because Biden and Harris and various other Democrats wanted peace and were genuinely concerned about the people in the region caught up in the conflict.
Oh they were sending the genocidal nation a ridiculous amount of bombs and missiles for peace. Makes sense.
Your bloody avoidance for voting anyone has led not only to Gaza getting flattened, but also women's rights, lgbt rights, any form of medical care, Ukraine, and the climate.
The blood is on your fucking hands now. At least Kamala would have seen reason and you could probably have talked to her/her party about Israel.
Good luck with fucking ignorant Trump, who won't even listen when a woman says no to him.
But thank God you didn't vote for anyone doing genocide! I will feel so relieved you did that when Russia has a border with my fucking country
You are describing things that have already happened, are current events, all under democrats, and them promising more of the same.
I did vote, for the candidate that opposes the genocide.
Since when are democrats the ones pushing abortion bans? Since when are they the ones wanting to withdraw from the Paris Climate Accord? Since when are blue states the ones banning books that contain any mention of queer people?
From my knowledge blue states have been doing anything but those things. It's red states that are doing all sorts of shady shit, and it's Trump literally saying he will:
-Withdraw the U.S. from the Climate Accord
-Appoint RFK as head of medicine
-Get rid of education department
-Withdraw spending in Ukraine and talk to his lover Putin
-Increase tariffs on EU which in turn will just hurt U.S. economy
you can blabber all day about how democrats are doing X Y Z wrong, but Trump is doing all of that PLUS more and way worse. No one likes this man, not even his own party members.
But I guess the best way to deal with a truck about to hit you is to close your eyes and hope for the best
Roe got overturned. Climate change is continuing to accelerate and democrats did a lot to make that happen, thats a long discussion though.
close your eyes and hope for the best
Again, I voted. I dont care that you think that a vote for a progressive candidate doesnt count, i took action.
The American education system has failed you. I'm assuming by "a progressive candidate" in this case you mean a third party, but in a first-past-the-post voting system, voting third-party is a protest vote. At best, people voting third-party shows that voters don't have confidence in the major parties, but at worst it helps your least preferred of the two major parties win the election because you're not begrudgingly voting for the candidate you hate less. A third-party president is an unimaginable upset.
But if you're not living in a swing state nobody cares how you vote for president anyway. Hopefully you got a good option for Congress in the primaries. That's the only thing I had any chance of influencing at a federal level for this election cycle. I'm not in a swing state and in the final election I only got one option for senate and all one candidate could say was that they weren't the other candidate.
None of this is news to me, i know how shit FPTP is and thats why i support getting rid of it. While everyone else that hates it for some reason insists on keeping it.
I don't think you understand. This election wasn't about expressing your moral superiority by not voting for Genocider A or Double Genocider B
This election was about preventing Double Genocider B from winning. You could only do that by voting Genocide A and sucking up the morally fucked choice. You failed, miserably. Had you voted for A, in 4 years you would have had the chance to happily vote for any third fourth or fifth party your heart desired. Good luck with that now when Trump brcomes God King.
Good fucking job on wasting your vote away and letting both Ukraine and Palestine get fucked. And the climate.
You are a fucking imbecile
For me, the election was about preventing genocide. Again, it is not an option for me.
in 4 years you would have had the chance to happily vote for any third fourth or fifth party your heart desired.
I get told this every 4 years. Its always next election.
Liberals see themselves as “somewhat left wing” but they’re centre right at best. When met with the slightest turmoil they just turn into fascists.
as a techie i can confirm a lot of liberals are also bigots who look down on anyone not having fancy college degrees and live in rural areas. for them gaza is an irritation which costed their favourite team the nba finals.
I put it this way, Trump comes in and wipes Gaza off the map. Hes only responsible for a fraction of the destruction because the vast majority of Gaza is already gone.
So how far do we go back then? Because Israel has been causing destruction in Gaza for probably a dozen presidents
Yeah, we need to do better than republican and democrat zionist presidents. Though, in recent years it was isolated to a humanitarian crisis, Israel wasnt invading, they just had a stranglehold of Gazas borders. Entirely under Biden though Israel has completely invaded and bombed the whole of the country from northern to southern border.
Rainbows and unicorns for everyone.
Your bar is disgustingly low if opposing genocide is asking too much
Are you talking about buildings or people? Because the death toll in Gaza is estimated to be ~40,000 while the population is ~3,000,000. That's 1.3% for those playing along at home.
Which, if you're a bit slow on the uptake, means get ready for Trump and Netanyahu to have their way with the remaining 98.7% of Gaza.
But hey, that's democracy I guess. Personally I enthusiastically voted for Harris, but the people of the US and Israel have spoken and so now we let the chips fall where they may.
Territory mostly. They started from the top and moved down, displacing a majority of the people there. Gaza practically no longer exists, and the Palestinians have become...hang on theres a word for this, a diaspora.
The official death toll is around 43k but estimates range much higher, likely over 100,000. The entire healthcare system in Gaza has collapsed so they cannot identify and put an official tally on many of those killed.
That's because Mama's surrounds military targets with civilians.
Look at what atrocities hamas has forced the idf to do for over a year now!!!!! Seriously, I can't believe you're trying to make this argument at this point.
It's so predictable too. Did someone do something indefensible and you don't want to face up to it? Try blaming the victim today! Ask your propagandist if victim blaming is right for you.
This Mama's a real jerk then
My autocorrect apparently doesn't know the word Hamas.
And right now liberals are cheering on more of them.
wow did you know that ~50% of people are female and ~50% of people in Gaza are children? what a shocking statistic that ~70% of people killed are women or children!
That just reinforces the fact that it's an actual genocide. If the general population wasn't just being murdered en masse, the statistics would skew towards military targets.
hey fucking idiot: in war you usually don't kill people statistically randomly.
Kamala said she was going to look for a ceasefire. Trump told Netanyahu to hurry up and finish the job. Get off your high horse.
EDIT: wow the tankies are out in full force tonight
Oh wow she said. Too bad she wasn't in some position of power to do something immediately.... hey wait a minute.
She can say whatever she wants, she has been part of the administration funding this genocide, she could have used her position to be more firm about stopping the aggression from Israel but has been nothing but supportive, regardless of what sham talks of ceasefire they may have tried to claim. Is there any evidence that she will take action that would be meaningfully different than what Trump would do?
I’m sure Trump will improve the situation. Good job getting rid of Genocide Joe and Hatchet girl Kamala!
This atrocity happened under biden, is continuing under biden and was supported by Harris. Enough of this moral relativism. If the democrats wanted to end this they would have already.
Right! Is asking for a none genicidal party too much to ask for? Democrats leadership would say yes.
loosing the election is on them and blue maga who support them blindly on everything, as a lifelong democrat i want them arrested and executed for warcrimes & murder along with entire aipac.
I mean every american president should be at least arrested for warcrimes? Maybe Trump is an exception.
Trump isn't an exception, if US presidents could be tried for warcrimes there would be several things to charge him with from his first term already.
It’s very telling about your character when you compare an adjudicated rapist, facial and insurrections with a former prosecutor and vice president that you choose to attack the prosecutor / VP over the criminal facist.
I appreciate the clarity of seeing what is in your soul.
she is pos who has always sucked up to the highest bider. she was anti-poor and pro-prison labor as a prosecutor. she got chosen as vp over warren because of superpacs where she was one of the most unpopular candidates while warren was 3rd in primary despite running beside sanders. she supported mass murdering of woman & kid, who are already living in hell with barely any food or medicine for over a year. she also basically said she cares more about grocery prices as there are more votes in it. she had taken largest donations from aipac ever in our election history while banning muslim democrats from speaking at her rallies. trump killed many during covid out of stupidity while she and biden burned poor kids alive for campaign donations.
and i don’t need a character endorsement from a bigot mocking genocide, you are no less rotten than maga racists. probably more as they haven’t supported killing helpless children for money.
Cool story bro. Let me know how the Trump Presidency works out for Palestinians in 4 years.
Given that most Palestinians are under the age of 14, this was to be expected: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_State_of_Palestine
Not most, technically - wiki says 0-14 make 44% of population. But this article breaks down the 70% further by saying 44% killed were 14 or under, so it's pretty much bang on for indicating that they're killing Palestinians at random.
And if 44% are children, that leaves 56% as adults. Cut that roughly in half to 28% for a 50/50 male/female split you get 72% (28 and 44) of the population is "women and children". If that's accurate, the title would be better stated as "Isreal kills indiscriminately".
Random is giving them way too much. Those are targeted numbers
No they aren't. Most of every population is women and children.
Its not random when you tell a population to go to a place for safety and then you bomb them when they are concentrated in that place.
Civilians are being killed b3cause ha,as is using civilians as shields.
Yah sure. I’m sure when they shoot a civilian it’s because hamas hiding under their dress. People need to stop believing in movies just because hamas is bad doesn’t make Israel the good guy. There doesn’t seem to be a good guy in this fight. Also look at how Israel has treated them over the years is it really hard to see why organizations like hamas have sprung up?
I agree that both sides in this are shitbags. But don't excuse Hamas's war crimes.
Nah, I expect militaries to not bomb indiscriminately. Because that's a war crime.
You expect too much of the IDF.
You seem to expect too little
Ya, perhaps. Time has taught my optimistic ass to be a pessimist where the IDF is involved. Or conservatives. Or... you know... People. ;)
Unfortunately, that's just war.
There never was, and there never will be a moral army in war.
US military can literally hit one target in a building using a literal knife missile - https://www.wsj.com/politics/national-security/pentagon-used-six-bladed-ginsu-weapon-to-kill-iraqi-militia-leader-7dfe0687
Israel proved they could target precision strike an Iranian general in a single room.
There is in fact an expectation for the military to not bomb indiscriminately, except when in the case of Gaza they choose to bomb indisciminately.
Join the IDF and see for yourself then. Why do you think there is a crisis of morale in the IDF? There was an interview from an IDF soldier talking how emotionally taxing it was for him to drive a bulldozer over dozens of people. Even Israeli news points out how horrific the average actions of the IDF are.
But he still did it. It must have been so hard for him hope he can get over the initial damage. Maybe the other oh wait they’re dead.
I mean, sure, but this assumes that the killing is completely indiscriminate.
It is, but it's important that you're clear on that
They're obliterating entire cities, so yeah.
What fraction is under 18? It's hard to tell by looking at the graph. I want to calculate what ratio of combatants to civilians killed a number of 70% implies.
Roughly half, as of mid October last year. I don't think anyone has a clear picture of the current proportions, for obvious reasons.
"Yeah but women and girls will give birth to terrorists, and boys will become terrorists. These are just preemptive-preemptive strikes... Historians may call this genocide but we disagree semantically". - Israeli government probably
Mossad would be proud of this statement.
Not probably. "Erase the memory of them. Erase them, their families, mothers and children." says the head of their air force.
Actually responsibility of civilian deaths are on those who use civilians as human shields
I don’t get that mindset. Why is it ok to shoot through people to get to the bad guys?
If the police did that when criminals took hostages it wouldn’t be acceptable so why is it acceptable for Israel?
It is a talking point meant to engage you and waste your time, it doesn't have to make sense. This is conservative playbook 101.
It is a demonstration of good faith vs bad faith. If only you explain it to the person properly then they will change their mind? Nope. They're just energy/effort vampires trying to exhaust you.
You've got your education right on that one. Learned the hard way perhaps?
You don’t know what you are talking about
But they are taking precautions, you guys act like they are doing it deliberately without precautions
Yeah right "precautions"
https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/
So if a terrorist broke in to your home, locked you, your wife, and your kids in the basement, then launched a rocket from your bedroom window, you'd be 100% OK with the IDF turning your house in to rubble and your family in to compost? Really? Get a fucking grip, buddy.
The Hutu's used the term "cockroaches" to dehumanize. The Nazi's used "rats". But at least those are living creatures. But "a shield", calling a human being a shield, as if they're an inanimate object meant to be struck, as if they're a nuisance that you're meant to get through to hit your target? Calling these civilians "human shields" is a new low for dehumanizing language, and Israel defenders don't realize what kind of monster everyone else sees them as. So wild that it's considered acceptable language by mainstream culture, fucking terrifying.
It’s considered acceptable language by mainstream culture because it's a legitimate interpretation of reality.
It's not reasonable to say Jews are literally rats. It is a reasonable to say civilian Gazans are used as a shield by Hamas. What is dehumanizing, sometime literally, is using people as shields.
I think it's more dehumanizing to be the one who kills those people. What the hell is wrong with people? Is murder suddenly okay then?
My gut reaction is to say - I don't know, if murder isn't okay, how come I only see people here criticizing Israel and not Hamas or Hezbollah?
When people assign blame only on one side, they're encouraging the other side to do more bad things. This applies to both the "Free Palestine!!!" and "Antisemitism!!!" camps.
Anyway, I just wanted to point out that the reason people are saying that Hamas are using Palestinians as human shields isn't a Hasbarah plot to dehumanize Palestinians, but because Hamas are using Palestinians as human shields. Could you explain why this seems to be controversial? Do people not agree that Hamas are using human shields, or do they think that pointing any criticism at anyone Palestinian is "pro-Israeli"?
Well people say Israel is in the right because they had people killed. Does that mean everyone in Gaza now has the right to do what ever the hell they want to Israel? Since the IDF has killed way more civilians then the attack did.
And those people would be wrong. That doesn't contradict anything I said.
The reason why people are focusing on one side is because one side killed ~1200 while the other has killed ~44,000. It's like being a victim of a driveby shooting on 9/11 and complaining "Why is everyone only focusing on the Twin Towers?" The problem with pro-Israel supporters is that they somehow can't seeem to tell the difference between 1200 and 44,000, it's almost as if the 44,000 doesn't matter because they're Palestinian, and the 1200 matters more because they're Israeli. If Israel killed 1200 and then Hamas returned by killing 44,000, we'd be focusing on Hamas, but that isn't the case is it?
But wait for it, I can see the Hasbara talking point incoming - "Those are Hamas numbers." Well the 1200 is Israeli numbers, and everyone now realizes their numbers are lest trustful, because they're not the ones lying to the world and blocking independent investigative journalism. If you believe Israel is telling the truth, why not let in independent investigation?
Actually, 44,000 is about right for the IDF estimations.
Anyway, you're saying it's a numbers game? Let's say Israel were to round up 1,199 random Gazans and shoot them in the street, people would be saying "Well, Israel killed less people, so Hamas should stop their aggression"?
Sorry, but I doubt that. Right now there are at least two other major conflicts, each with more casualties (the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the Sudanese civil war), yet the interest in Lemmy and like minded places is like that meme with the drowning kid and the skeleton (inb4 someone accuses me of "antisemitism" - I'm pointing out that Israel is singled out, not accusing anyone of anything).
"But these other conflicts are okay, why can't Israel do one?" I fail to see the comparison with these other conflicts, where neither has 2 million people in a giant open air concentration camp being starved of food, water, electricty, sanitation, and then getting bombed by US/UK sold weapons. Yes those conflicts are terrible, the Sudanese civil war is terrible with over 60,000 deaths so far, we just want Gaza to not top that as the Lancet reckons Gaza is facing at least 186,000 deaths - https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltext - The problem is there can't be an accurate count because Israel won't let independent investigators in, also unlike the other conflicts you mentioned where independent investigations ARE allowed in. The fact that you'd point out these other conflicts, only to compare Israel to them as being MORE dishonest, doesn't help Israels cause or your own. No matter what you say, you won't convince us to accept genocide when it's happening to Palestinians or anyone else.
Oh, OK, thanks, that was genuinely helpful. If I understood correctly, you think I'm trying to convince you that "Israel = good", so you mentally add "and that's why Israel is in the right" after what I said, and are replying to that instead of what I actually said. I'm absolutely not trying to convince anyone Israel is in the right here, or that they aren't committing genocide. Not saying I agree or disagree with you on the subject, just saying that's not what I'm talking about. This started out as me pointing out that the reason people are saying Hamas are using civilians as human shields is because that's what's they're doing. Now I'm trying to understand why people focus so much on Gaza and are giving Hamas a free pass for what's going on there.
It wasn't a comparison. I took the criteria you gave (number of casualties) and applied it to other situations. Which seemed to be productive because now you've given me new criteria. The only one that's unique is western support. I get that - as (probably?) a citizen of a western country, you don't want your tax money financing genocide. But that's more a criticism against your government, and, more importantly to my interest in the conversation, it doesn't explain the visceral hate people seem to have towards Israel in particular.
That's what I'm asking - why do you "just want Gaza to not top that" and don't seem to care that much about what's going on Sudan? (I'm talking about the discourse among the, and I'm hoping I'm using the correct term, progressive left).
According to your own source, there can't be an accurate account because "Collecting data is becoming increasingly difficult for the Gaza Health Ministry due to the destruction of much of the infrastructure."
https://www.cnn.com/2024/10/24/middleeast/palestinians-human-shields-israel-military-gaza-intl/index.html
So the responsibility is on the IDF, then.
As the IDF has done. So you're saying that the IDF is a terrorist org, right? Right??
I say it. Yes it is! If it commits terrorism to attack his enemies then yes it's a terrorist org.
All religious ethnic based terrorist orgs have their reason, they all believe they are doing the right thing. In the case of religious based they all believe to be the children's of god and His favourite people.
What makes it a terrorist org isn't reason or right or wrong sides, what makes it terrorist is the way it attacks it's enemies to achieve their goals.
So hell yes they are terrorists because of they have done.
If a group of militants decided to have a meeting in the basement of a fully occupied apartment building in NYC, you believe it would be ethical for the US military to destroy the building and kill hundreds of people in their homes?
According to the CIA world factbook (the only source I could find) the population spread in gaza is:
0-14 years: 38.8% (male 427,450/female 404,288) 15-64 years: 58.3% (male 627,235/female 620,903) 65 years and over: 2.9% (2024 est.) (male 31,655/female 30,112)
https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/gaza-strip/#people-and-society
Meaning about 30% of the population are males over 14.
So I guess Israel isn't disproportionately murdering women and children, theyre just killing everyone. So genocide.
By eliminating the next generation(s) and the females in fertile age, it is more effective at wiping out a population than engaging directly with it.
This is valid for getting rid of vermin, capable of explosive breeding.
No need to guess what the results will be when applied to human beings.
This is a weird way to phrase this.
Dehumanization works because many of the popular cultures around the world treat non-humans terribly. As we're talking about the "cradle" of Western civilization, we're talking about pastoralists especially.
Nice nick name.
Yeah except no. Let's not.
It got a reaction out of you because if the way it is phrased, didn't it? That was the objective.
Sadly enough, those who triggered this disaster think in these same terms. And look where it has led.
Yeah well I think I'd be more impressed if you extended empathy rather than more callous disregard for humans
That is a fair criticism. I respect it.
I'm not subtracting my own empathy towards those people by choosing to denounce their aggressors through harsh words. I'm throwing vitriole towards their aggressors.
I get this and this is part of the basis of satire, right?
But the more speech is focused on the dark side, the more our brains focus on the dark because that's how they work. Eg "Don't think of a bear," vs "think of a duck." But it's ultimately your writing to style as you'd like
In case anyone forgot from autumn 2023:
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/11/benjamin-netanyahu-amalek-israel-palestine-gaza-saul-samuel-old-testament/
70% of people are women and children.
70% of Hamas aren't.
What does this tell us about Israel's goals?
I guess the point you're making is that this essentially shows that Israel is targeting any palestinian, not just hamas. That's genocide.
Yup.
Sounds so much nicer to say "killing everyone" instead of "genocide" right?
Is that just because 70% of people are women and children or is there bias?
The math leans towards the former, but when the two hypotheses suggested by the data are "we are actively and selectively targeting noncombatants" and "we just don't give half a shit who we're killing," in a sane world you'd be universally branded as "the baddies" in the conflict.
They're bad I just want a better understanding of what's happening so I can more accurately hate Israel
I wish there was a way to convince them that murdering your neighbors then stealing their land is fucking evil.
Sorry. Not casting aspersions on you, just despairing at the situation.
I would consider the latter to be depraved indifference, but the former to be maliciously genocidal.
Of the two, the former is much, much worse than the latter. And with everything being a spectrum of some kind, the former is much further along the path to being evil than the latter.
With that said, there is no single person pushing all the buttons in Israel; as such, I am sure there are people in the Israeli command structure that represent the former much more than the latter, and vice versa.
But if there is one characterization I feel is wholly appropriate: on Oct 6, Israel looked at the evil of Hamas and said, “hold my beer and watch this.” And boy, did they ever deliver.
44% children, 26% women, 30% men. Gaza is about half under 18, so that's nearly randomly killing people. That said, these are only confirmed fatalities, so presumably susceptible to bias.
The report is here
No bias, they are just killing everyone on sight.
Why are so many women and children joining Hamas?
Why is Hamas using their own people as shields? Why did the people let Hamas rule?
I know you really think this is a defense of Israel, but I encourage you to actually find the answer.
Do I have to ask the Illuminati? Or aljazeera?
I engaged in good faith and you continue to be a shithead. Bye.
I wouldn't call that good faith, but nice try.
How about Brigadier General Yitzhak Segev, the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s.
Oh look - a New York Times reporter saved us the trouble. Turns out that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who also corroborated this statement).
...there's that, and the whole military occupation to maintain an apartheid state in an open air concentration camp, the decades-long annexation campaign. You'll be surprised to learn that people find that kind of thing upsetting.
Thank you for providing the first real information here. But the last paragraph doesn't sit right with me, the things hamas did is not resistance. And also you make it sound like the Palestinians didn't chose "Hamas" but in the end you try to relativize what happened on 7th of Oct as a result of "military occupation" etc.
So what now? Also I think its pointless to bring this up here, but seeing how people react across the world in terms of the terror atrocities, its quite clear on what side the palestianias stand on...on the wrong one. I am really sorry for people who ACTUALLY want to have a peaceful live, no matter what religion or origin.
The PLO were in power, Israel knew who Hamas were, and funded their rise to power (for what reason other than to manufacture the pretext for this genocide?), they also created and maintained the conditions that would motivate and justify violent resistance, so yes - Israel are responsible for Hamas.
In maintaining the horrible conditions I pointed to, Israel further motivated people to push back by any means necessary while giving them as little as possible to live for.
You don't get to tell us you want peace as you defend a genocide. You don't get to tell us about atrocities as the IDF gleefully document dozens per day, and you don't get to tell the people you're genociding that they're wrong.
With that all clarified, what would justifiable Palestinian self-defence look like, and do those principles apply equally to Israel?
So basically Hamas is an inside job in order for Israel to exterminate innocent people? And the reasoning for that is...? I guess 7th October was also a self made incident?
What's your explanation for Israel funding the terrorists' displacement of the secular moderates with predictable, deadly results?
What - you think Netanyahu cares about Israelis given his refusal of ceasefire after ceasefire and hostage exchange after hostage exchange? How quaint.
Seems straightforwardly clear that it was to manufacture the pretext for the current genocide.
Thats quite the "theory". Also I am still failing to see the motivation? "just kill some muslims" and sacrifice some of our own for that?
For the third time - why did Israel fund Hamas' displacement of the secular moderates with predictable results?
Kill the Palestinians, take their land - you know - exactly what they've been doing for decades, and were able to dramatically accelerate after October 7th.
Ah okay, Israel just wants more land... that is why they sacrifice their own people and kill "innocents". Sorry but no, I rather see the truth in it. And seemingly the world is also moving towards that. Lets see what Trump will do in that regard. :)
Why? Because it's so plain in sight that everybody knows about it? I doubt it.
Tell me why the people of Palestine voted for hamas (almost 20 years ago by the way).
If you don't know, look it up. If you don't care, that'll explain all I need to know.
Well, nice. Rape is no resistance.
I'm asking why they voted for hamas nearly 2 decades ago and you run to October 7th.
Fine, rape is no excuse for genocide then.
I'd say any claims about rape being a justification for genocide have lost their weight after Israelis protested punishment of IDF soldiers for rape of prisoners on the basis of "Palestinians deserving it". There are no moral arguments supporting begining, maintaining or continuing the genocide in Gaza.
Uhh sure, whatever floats your boat.
You can't actually be this ignorant...
Yes they can be that ignorant. Let’s stop pretending people are smart. The last 10 years has proven people are raging morons and proud of it.
I disagree - I think the majority know they're lying, and support the genocide - they're just cowards too gutless to say so.
You give these monsters any sort of push, and they start using Palestinian and Hamas interchangeably which really gives the game away... keep going, and they start screaming their support for wiping Palestine off the map.
I guess it's "nice" to confirm that they're still killing Palestinians at random.
Yeah, no shit
In the US those who abstained from voting or voted third party have sealed Gaza’s fate.
Who the hell do you think has been president for the entirety of this slaughter?
Neither of the candidates for election.
Right, that includes Trump. Its been a democrat funding and supporting this genocide the entire time. You hypocrites cant use these deaths to fuckin support democrats.
because Donald "I will let Netyanahu finish the job" Trump is somehow better for this. Get your head out of your ass lol
I agree that Donald Trump is much worse for the situation in Palestine and that it was a mistake for anybody to sit out because of what’s happening. But I think it also needs to be said that the Democrats didn’t really offer any alternative besides plausible deniability, and so it seems strange to me to pin the responsibility on the disengaged
He's been finishing the job just fine under Biden. I've gotten to the point where I can't honestly see what the difference is(in this particular issue). There was a time where wholesale annihilation and annexation was unacceptable but since that's cool can you point me to where exactly you think the Dems red line exists? Because it certainly seems to be beyond the ethnic cleansing of Gaza.
The difference is that Biden has not once come out to say "i will help neyyanahu flatten Gaza" and from what I've read has been criticising him (to the best of his old man abilities).
It sucks that U.S. kept sending weapons to Israel for one reason or another, but the key difference here is that with a democratic president you had a higher chance of getting thru.
Good luck getting Trump to listen to anything at all. And I guess good job for letting Trump take the president seat, not only will he help flatten Gaza (which Biden seemingly was doing anyway), but will also flatten women's rights in the U.S., will flatten healthcare and education, will flatten any climate change progress, and will let Russia flatten Ukraine. An astounding failure for the entire world, just because your only issue was "b-but think of Gaza!"
I hope you're happy with your moral high ground because you decided to not vote for Genocide Kamala and instead let Destroy Everyone Trump win.
There have been such astounding things said with a straight face this year.
Oh wow, you literally picked and chose.
To the best of his abilities my ass. Reflexively excusing his continued total support for Israel even after the election is delusional. It's pretty obvious that you had no chance of getting any different result from a Democrat on this issue than a Republican.
And getting mad at me about it is kind of pointless, as I live in Maryland's sixth and my vote for a Democrat house member is the only national vote that mattered (and in this case it really did matter). Despite that I did end up voting for Harris. Maybe you should get mad at the Dems morally bankrupt leadership instead of me.
I will get mad at the 15 million stay-at-home non-voters due to a single-issue before i consider getting mad at the Dems for not caressing these people on their single-issue.
I will get mad at the 15 million who never learned of the phrase "Lesser of two evils", who thought that by not voting they are making some sort of brave statement on morals.
Suck it up, there were 2 choices: Genocide, with high chance of progress away from Genocide Genocide with bonus destruction, and no chance of steering away from any of it
It's literally the trolley problem, and people that didn't vote just didn't pull the lever and have let mass destruction happen.
Your continued apologizing for genocide as the lesser of two evils after the election is as morally bankrupt as the Dem leadership that tried to sacrifice gazan lives for the Republican vote. And look at how well that worked out for them.
I am not apologizing genocide, I am simply criticising people that voted for Genocide + More by not going to vote at all.
The morally right choice was to reduce harm as much as possible, and that was only viable if voting with Kamala. By otherwise not voting or going independent (In a place like U.S. where an independent vote is basically a waste), you're just letting the fascism push more.
But again, these people can at least sleep easier at night knowing they didn't vote for anyone doing genocide. They simply facilitated genocide + everything bad to seep through and win.
Trying to only blame the dems for the civic duty failure of 15 million people is insane in my opinion. In other countries you just vote with the candidate you like the most, even if they won't see eye to eye with you on some issues, it's not some "oh I will only vote if these candidates win me over!". You either vote because you agree with someone ideologically, or you vote because there's Hitler on the ballot and Jesus Christ you do not want Hitler to win, even if the candidate you voted for will only give Israel more weapons. Otherwise you let Hitler win and now there are two genocides occuring instead of just one.
No, you're apologizing by drawing a fucking distinction for the Dems that does not exist. It just doesn't. I'll refer you to my original point: where is the red line for the Dems on Gaza?
Take a minute to read that headline again. You got Trump for this now, because you insisted to everyone to accept that headline, those deaths, that 'better than this' just isnt an option. You wouldnt permit people that care about life, that oppose genocide somewhere else to go. So they went nowhere, because genocide is not an option.
And yet accelerated genocide is the option that was chosen.
Look, I get the argument you're making. The problem is that it hinges entirely on accepting a premise that isn't based in reality. Progress, specifically as it relates to harm reduction, doesn't happen instantaneously. It never has. You take the wins you can get and then push for the next step. You can be mad about that, and I would argue that we all should be, but it's not going to change the way things work. In this case you've let idealism get in the way of actual tangible improvement. Even if you disagree with that characterization you can't dispute the fact that you've at least helped shut the door on the potential for improvement. If you can find a way to rationalize that in your head to make you feel like the good guy then I understand why you would want to take that path, but do you honestly believe the people of Gaza take solace in the fact that you had good intentions? I'd wager they don't give a shit how you frame this in your mind. They're just thinking about what a Trump presidency means for the future of this conflict and that isn't good by any stretch of the imagination.
This is deranged. Progress? Improvement? What did Kamala say she would do differently? Did she say she'd stop sending weapons and financial assistance?
What did Kamala say she would do differently? You cant keep talking about progress and improvement without any signs of either. The only potential for improvement we have is a progressive candidate
I believe she would have been marginally better than Biden but, as you continuously refuse to acknowledge because it completely defeats the point you are trying to make, that is not what we're discussing here. Trump is indisputably going to be worse than either of them and that's what you have chosen to support through inaction. You can talk in circles around that fact as much as you like but it won't change reality.
You were the one that brought up progress and improvement. But those words have meanings, and its not keeping things the same. Things are currently unacceptable for a lot of people, and everyone here told them to hush up about demanding better. And so they hushed up and stayed home.
Netanyahu was filibustering the peace process hoping for Trump to win while he ran out the clock. If he, like Putin, were forced to deal with Harris instead of Trump over the next four years his attitude would've changed after the results were announced.
Filibuster? Man that asshole doesnt have a filibuster, he has absolutely zero authority over whether or not we send him weapons and financial assistance.
Why would his attitude have to change with Harris vs his current attitude with Biden? Did she say she was gonna stop sending weapons and money? She was pretty adamant about being a continuation of Biden as far as I saw
Because Biden and Harris and various other Democrats wanted peace and were genuinely concerned about the people in the region caught up in the conflict. Trump gives absolutely no shits about any of it and neither do Republicans who will allocate the funds because that's how our government works.
Oh they were sending the genocidal nation a ridiculous amount of bombs and missiles for peace. Makes sense.
Yes it is. It's the one you got. Congrats on maintaining your ideological purity. It's going to be quite a show.
The ideological purity of
checks notes
Thanks we will take it.
Which got you
checks notes
More genocide.
It was more genocide with Kamala. Genocide is not an option.
Dude, you just have problems.
Enjoy your super-genocide.
super genocide he says. Damn they just called what Hitler did regular genocide.
Also not endorsed by people with the red line.
The genocide thing really is not the gotcha you think it is.
I dont know what 'yes it is' is in response to.
Your bloody avoidance for voting anyone has led not only to Gaza getting flattened, but also women's rights, lgbt rights, any form of medical care, Ukraine, and the climate.
The blood is on your fucking hands now. At least Kamala would have seen reason and you could probably have talked to her/her party about Israel.
Good luck with fucking ignorant Trump, who won't even listen when a woman says no to him.
But thank God you didn't vote for anyone doing genocide! I will feel so relieved you did that when Russia has a border with my fucking country
You are describing things that have already happened, are current events, all under democrats, and them promising more of the same.
I did vote, for the candidate that opposes the genocide.
Since when are democrats the ones pushing abortion bans? Since when are they the ones wanting to withdraw from the Paris Climate Accord? Since when are blue states the ones banning books that contain any mention of queer people?
From my knowledge blue states have been doing anything but those things. It's red states that are doing all sorts of shady shit, and it's Trump literally saying he will: -Withdraw the U.S. from the Climate Accord -Appoint RFK as head of medicine -Get rid of education department -Withdraw spending in Ukraine and talk to his lover Putin -Increase tariffs on EU which in turn will just hurt U.S. economy
you can blabber all day about how democrats are doing X Y Z wrong, but Trump is doing all of that PLUS more and way worse. No one likes this man, not even his own party members.
But I guess the best way to deal with a truck about to hit you is to close your eyes and hope for the best
Roe got overturned. Climate change is continuing to accelerate and democrats did a lot to make that happen, thats a long discussion though.
Again, I voted. I dont care that you think that a vote for a progressive candidate doesnt count, i took action.
The American education system has failed you. I'm assuming by "a progressive candidate" in this case you mean a third party, but in a first-past-the-post voting system, voting third-party is a protest vote. At best, people voting third-party shows that voters don't have confidence in the major parties, but at worst it helps your least preferred of the two major parties win the election because you're not begrudgingly voting for the candidate you hate less. A third-party president is an unimaginable upset.
But if you're not living in a swing state nobody cares how you vote for president anyway. Hopefully you got a good option for Congress in the primaries. That's the only thing I had any chance of influencing at a federal level for this election cycle. I'm not in a swing state and in the final election I only got one option for senate and all one candidate could say was that they weren't the other candidate.
None of this is news to me, i know how shit FPTP is and thats why i support getting rid of it. While everyone else that hates it for some reason insists on keeping it.
I don't think you understand. This election wasn't about expressing your moral superiority by not voting for Genocider A or Double Genocider B
This election was about preventing Double Genocider B from winning. You could only do that by voting Genocide A and sucking up the morally fucked choice. You failed, miserably. Had you voted for A, in 4 years you would have had the chance to happily vote for any third fourth or fifth party your heart desired. Good luck with that now when Trump brcomes God King.
Good fucking job on wasting your vote away and letting both Ukraine and Palestine get fucked. And the climate.
You are a fucking imbecile
For me, the election was about preventing genocide. Again, it is not an option for me.
I get told this every 4 years. Its always next election.
Liberals can’t accept they endorse this genocide.
Liberals see themselves as “somewhat left wing” but they’re centre right at best. When met with the slightest turmoil they just turn into fascists.
as a techie i can confirm a lot of liberals are also bigots who look down on anyone not having fancy college degrees and live in rural areas. for them gaza is an irritation which costed their favourite team the nba finals.
This slaughter so far
I put it this way, Trump comes in and wipes Gaza off the map. Hes only responsible for a fraction of the destruction because the vast majority of Gaza is already gone.
So how far do we go back then? Because Israel has been causing destruction in Gaza for probably a dozen presidents
Yeah, we need to do better than republican and democrat zionist presidents. Though, in recent years it was isolated to a humanitarian crisis, Israel wasnt invading, they just had a stranglehold of Gazas borders. Entirely under Biden though Israel has completely invaded and bombed the whole of the country from northern to southern border.
Rainbows and unicorns for everyone.
Your bar is disgustingly low if opposing genocide is asking too much
Are you talking about buildings or people? Because the death toll in Gaza is estimated to be ~40,000 while the population is ~3,000,000. That's 1.3% for those playing along at home.
Which, if you're a bit slow on the uptake, means get ready for Trump and Netanyahu to have their way with the remaining 98.7% of Gaza.
But hey, that's democracy I guess. Personally I enthusiastically voted for Harris, but the people of the US and Israel have spoken and so now we let the chips fall where they may.
Territory mostly. They started from the top and moved down, displacing a majority of the people there. Gaza practically no longer exists, and the Palestinians have become...hang on theres a word for this, a diaspora.
The official death toll is around 43k but estimates range much higher, likely over 100,000. The entire healthcare system in Gaza has collapsed so they cannot identify and put an official tally on many of those killed.
What are the numbers today if Hamas killed?
That's because Mama's surrounds military targets with civilians.
Look at what atrocities hamas has forced the idf to do for over a year now!!!!! Seriously, I can't believe you're trying to make this argument at this point.
It's so predictable too. Did someone do something indefensible and you don't want to face up to it? Try blaming the victim today! Ask your propagandist if victim blaming is right for you.
This Mama's a real jerk then
My autocorrect apparently doesn't know the word Hamas.
And right now liberals are cheering on more of them.
wow did you know that ~50% of people are female and ~50% of people in Gaza are children? what a shocking statistic that ~70% of people killed are women or children!
That just reinforces the fact that it's an actual genocide. If the general population wasn't just being murdered en masse, the statistics would skew towards military targets.
hey fucking idiot: in war you usually don't kill people statistically randomly.
But in genocide you do!
B-b-b-but what about Trump?!
Kamala said she was going to look for a ceasefire. Trump told Netanyahu to hurry up and finish the job. Get off your high horse.
EDIT: wow the tankies are out in full force tonight
Oh wow she said. Too bad she wasn't in some position of power to do something immediately.... hey wait a minute.
She can say whatever she wants, she has been part of the administration funding this genocide, she could have used her position to be more firm about stopping the aggression from Israel but has been nothing but supportive, regardless of what sham talks of ceasefire they may have tried to claim. Is there any evidence that she will take action that would be meaningfully different than what Trump would do?
I’m sure Trump will improve the situation. Good job getting rid of Genocide Joe and Hatchet girl Kamala!
This atrocity happened under biden, is continuing under biden and was supported by Harris. Enough of this moral relativism. If the democrats wanted to end this they would have already.
Right! Is asking for a none genicidal party too much to ask for? Democrats leadership would say yes.
loosing the election is on them and blue maga who support them blindly on everything, as a lifelong democrat i want them arrested and executed for warcrimes & murder along with entire aipac.
I mean every american president should be at least arrested for warcrimes? Maybe Trump is an exception.
Trump isn't an exception, if US presidents could be tried for warcrimes there would be several things to charge him with from his first term already.
It’s very telling about your character when you compare an adjudicated rapist, facial and insurrections with a former prosecutor and vice president that you choose to attack the prosecutor / VP over the criminal facist.
I appreciate the clarity of seeing what is in your soul.
she is pos who has always sucked up to the highest bider. she was anti-poor and pro-prison labor as a prosecutor. she got chosen as vp over warren because of superpacs where she was one of the most unpopular candidates while warren was 3rd in primary despite running beside sanders. she supported mass murdering of woman & kid, who are already living in hell with barely any food or medicine for over a year. she also basically said she cares more about grocery prices as there are more votes in it. she had taken largest donations from aipac ever in our election history while banning muslim democrats from speaking at her rallies. trump killed many during covid out of stupidity while she and biden burned poor kids alive for campaign donations.
and i don’t need a character endorsement from a bigot mocking genocide, you are no less rotten than maga racists. probably more as they haven’t supported killing helpless children for money.
Cool story bro. Let me know how the Trump Presidency works out for Palestinians in 4 years.
I hope your moral superiority brings comfort to those dead women and children, and the dead still to follow.
At least they died for your principles.
That's 70% of confirmed deaths. So essentially this number is meaningless, as we don't know the whole picture.
Fuck man, they went a little overboard with the propaganda at your school and left out all the maths?
Yes so there's probably thousands more buried under robble or incinerated because of 2000 lb bottle was dropped on their house.