This needs to happen with Appl too. AppleTV/Safari/Messages/etc app for MacOS + SIP my ass. Its not integral and if you've made it so you need to unmake it so, along with other bundled crap. SIP should literally refer to that and only that in aggregate which is necessary to ensure the system is able to function, not per se function in an un-overruleable way for the maker.
Don't forget TV brands like samsung and LG who force some apps down your throat even if you don't want them. You can't remove those apps. Amazon is even worse with their firetv devices, they just install apps on your behalf that you can't remove. We don't own anything anymore.
Ya but I can just use a box and not have the TV itself connected to the internet and you can have it in gaming mode so you basically never see the splash screen with all tha crap
I do this as well, but the smart TV bullshit on my Vizio constantly switches itself back on.
I have a button on my remote now that fixes my input by switching to the box in one fell swoop because this happens so much. There is no setting to stop this, as I already have it set to not change the input.
Yes. They should allow removing apps like Safari and, as you said, Apple TV, iMessage, and other non-basic (on a computer) utilities, then downloading them again from the App Store.
On an unrelated note, I also turn off SIP to change the icons of system apps.
Wait Windows users are allowed to manage their software ?!? Get out of town.
As a certified windows user, can confirm, I do not have free will to install anything
yes, and it's easier than linux
checks notes Registry editing?
You can remove Windows completely from your life with very little effort, no matter where you live and it's free! In the world of today there is no need whatsoever for that exploitive and in short bad OS anymore.
This comment is so out of touch.
I work in CAD and 3D printing and I'd be completely dead in the water if I used Linux.
No fusion 360, no cura
I bet there are plenty of other apps that I rely on that are not available on Linux.
I'm not some sort of Windows fanboy either. I'm disgusted with their action in the recent years.
I run Linux on my home server, but not my main computing machine
Let's be realistic here, your experience is not universal
To be fair, PrusaSlicer and its derivatives do have native Linux support. And you can use Onshape from the browser on Linux just fine and it is honestly really good. I do a lot of this stuff too
I’m not an expert, but I really doubt that most open source software can compete with the features and support of enterprise products. In almost every industry there are FOSS alternatives to professional software, but they mostly get ignored. If you really could pump out the same quality of work as quickly, I don’t think that most companies would forego the opportunity to save some money on licensing fees.
Well, first off I wasn't presenting a "FOSS first" argument here. Onshape is a closed-source browser based CAD software but it works really well and I enjoy it. PrusaSlicer IS FOSS, but it is developed by the folks at Prusa who build the Prusa i3 printers - it is widely considered to be the "standard" for 3D printing slicers, better than CURA for sure.
Second off, this argument has an element of truth but kind of misses the plot. It is DEFINITELY possible for FOSS to be better and widely used and there are a couple of examples. I don't have a ton of time right now but just for fun I'll list a few. Blender is a great one, don't really need to explain how good it is. Also, KiCAD is really good these days too, second only to Altium. There are many more as well!
I agree that’s it’s possible, and hopefully it gets to be more common in the future. It’s hard to compete with professional software since they often have large full-time dev and support teams, but there is a handful of examples of FOSS software that debatably outperform the competition.
unless you want your programs to run
I mean some stuff is still running windows 98. What programs are you really needing to run?
Same ol Adobe and Microsoft products
God I love people that pretend switching to Linux is for everyone. They’re the same dipshits that install Mint on their grandmothers machine without asking, then get defensive when she takes issue with it.
I installed Linux Mint and I encrypted the drive for my sister ( a 20 yo old laptop ), her kids use it to play games now and they absolutely love it
her husband uses it for word docs, and browsing the web and his happy with it, he wanted to pay me for my effort
There is a catch .... They think it's macOS 😂😭
I want to say that there’s no way people would install Linux without consent on someone else’s machine, but people have done crazier things.
I think almost every Microsoft product has a FOSS alternative (that works in windows usually too) if you want to get away from them. GamePass/The Xbox app/Windows store doesn't, but that's almost it. If there isn't an alternative, it's not unlikely that it'll work through WINE. What software specifically are you looking for?
Microsoft office and games with anticheat are two big categories.
There are alternatives for office. LibreOffice, which has been around forever.
As for anti-cheat, yeah that's up to the devs. Easy Anti-cheat supports Linux in the latest version, but it requires developers to implement it. I've been playing Hunt Showdown and it's fine. Counterstrike obviously works. I'd say on average, most anti-cheat is fine. It does require actual effort on the devs though, unlike games that just run with WINE/Proton totally fine most of the time without them doing anything.
LibreOffice is great if you don’t need perfect compatibility with Microsoft office. If you do, the only good option is, well Microsoft Office.
Which also has online options, so...
Ableton Live with plugins is osx or windows. Windows if you want custom hardware in any meaningful sense.
I got a good one. That mandatory garbage Cricut software.
Which one? apache2? mysql? php-fpm? python? ftp? smb? nodejs?
Not sure about you, but I'm using those to make my living.
Agreed, I hate how people blindly use Windows because "that's what my shitty HP laptop shipped with"
...unless you have a machine that doesn't run linux well.
If it's been a while you could try again as the kernel gets updated with support for various hardware.
One of my laptops was awful with Linux but after a good while I tried reinstalling a fresh distro and it ran like a dream.
Yeah. Many of the complaints surrounding Linux and hardware are BS. But complaints about Linux running well on cutting edge hardware are often founded.
Linux devs can only stary supporting new hardware once they have access to it or to accurate specs. Often, this is only once the hardware has been released.
But 6-month old, and moreso 1-year old hardware? Generally works like a (good) dream.
This is why hardware vendors that design for Linux are so important (thanks, System 76!).
Yeah. I was thinking of a particular gaming laptop, which does run almost perfectly with the latest kernels. But it's not all the way there yet.
As in the PC has some hardware which only has proprietary drivers from the manufacturer?
Correct.
You can run linux on just any hardware, yet somehow the capitalist still manage to fuck it up.
Or newer open source drivers that are buggy or missing features.
Sort of?
I run Visual Studio Enterprise, no, VS Code is not sufficient for some needs.
I have to edit complex PDFs in Adobe. Free, open source readers are not enough.
Even the best linux RDP or WebRTC or otherwise apps still don't seem to provide quite the same speed as RDP into windows hosts/servers.
I have to use Teams daily across multiple orgs, and the seemingly discontinued Linux support in lieu of the less-featured browser app / PWA just doesn't fly.
I've found building windows apps on Linux, while seemingly supposed to be net similar, often times do not turn out right.
Need full featured O365 to integrate with your work's O365? No go. Closest is installing edge on Linux and using the web version, which is subpar.
I hate windows, I use Linux when I can, but to say you can remove it from your life with very little effort is a blanket statement that is just unrealistic for many. To say there is no need is just off base.
Source: I use Windows, PopOS, KDE, Mint, and that apple OS thing that I hate more than Windows.
I agree it's very easy and takes very little force to remove windows from your life. Adopting another OS in the other hand...
Like that would fix the OS.
Way too late...I switched away from Windows 100% already. Linux works perfectly fine.
Too many of the programs I use are Windows only.
Like what? I've found alternatives or many run just fine using Wine. Might run a little slower if your computer is older, but likely everything else is running faster on Linux anyway, so it makes up for it.
I use many proprietary pieces of software that are only available for Windows.
I find that unless that software needs access to hardware, or is very performance sensitive or uses some newer Windows APIs, most of the time Wine can run it. I still have Windows installed for those few things that require it. But over time that has become less and less.
I even had to grab the TP-Link easysmart configuration utility yesterday to configure an old managed switch and the exe ran perfect on Wine. I was honestly quite surprised. In fact I first started it up and it didn't detect anything and I was afraid it was incompatible, but turned out the second NIC in my PC was just set up on the same config in network manager because I had been playing around with some stuff. It also runs the old Windows Epson Scanner software and drivers that my old scanner requires that no longer work in Windows 11.
Anyway, for old proprietary stuff I find that Wine emulates older Windows and DOS better than Windows 10 or 11.
Tell that to someone that uses fusion 360 to earn their living.
If you are just going to Facebook and downloading movies and stuff sure...
Linux is great for my home server, terrible for my main machine.
Your problem is using your personal machine for work.
Why the hell would I buy an entire different machine just for web browsing and games? Should also get a third one for porn? Lol
It's great that Linux works for you but you need to realize that it does not work for everyone yet. Your experience is not the same as everyone else's. If I could run every application I need on Linux I would switch today. I am not happy about my dependence on Windows, but I live in reality
Or just use Bulk Crap Uninstaller
I just bulk crap uninstalled windows and moved to Linux
Linux users truly are the vegans of the tech world.
Ain't that the truth
They seriously cannot stop talking about Linux... At this point, It's endlessly annoying, as it's on literally every post about any operating system.
Nearly every post is about Windows or MacOS yet when someone mentions Linux suddenly it's a problem?
I also hate how Windows and MacOS are mentioned on every post about operating systems yet here we are. Why is no-one talking about Temple OS?
But seriously why doesn't your rule apply to the other operating systems? Perhaps no-one is promoting Windows because it's not the OS they chose, it's the OS they got and it's their god given right to be miserable and make sure everyone else is.
How dare I care about my operating system choice and how I use my computer. How dare I recommend it to other people. How dare I try to convince them to give it a go because it might be better for them. As a Linux user I am truly scum, the worst of the worst.
Do you think people never hear about Windows, iOS, Android, etc?
I think you just get irrationally angry when people bring up something you don't use. We get it, you use Windows btw.
I find it kinda staggering you think it's not appropriate for someone to mention alternative OSes on a submission where people are criticising an OS lol.
Let's apply that thinking to another product: Samsung TV does bad thing. Do you think it would be inappropriate or unusual for commenters to mention that other TV brands exist? If not, then why is it different for this other tool?
It's not like there an infinite number of OSs. Unless you have a Mac the choice is basically Windows or Linux.
It's absolutely logical that any operating system post will have comments pushing Linux.
I hope that one day someone makes another better OS, because Linux is annoying as well. But until then you'll have to suffer these comments.
Meantime, the BSD crowd: "am I a joke to you?"
In both cases, I've encountered a lot more people complaining about them than I have obnoxious Linux users or vegans
People actively seek out annoying people to justify themselves.
Must not be using your eyes much then, or you're just a bit selective about what you see.
This sounds like some desperate projection to me lol
We constantly hear about all the bad shit MS is doing, then somebody points out an alternative, and then people like you get pissed off about it. "NO. I don't want to hear about the alternatives! I'll stick to Microsoft, they'll stop their antics some day, I can fix her them ❤️"
Maybe if people don't want to hear about OS alternatives, they should stop complaining about the one they have?
I don't understand the anger that springs up when people say "this isn't an issue on Linux". If your washing machine kept leaking water all over your floor, and someone said "hey have you considered getting a different one?" it'd be insane to get angry at them for that, yet it happens all the time with OSes. It's just a tool. You don't owe allegiance to an OS.
That analogy about the washing machine doesn't quite work.
I cannot run applications that I rely on for my business on Linux. It is not even an option even if I wanted to.
The hassle of switching operating systems isnt problem, It's the lack of compatibility.
Then don't use Linux for that use case? Nobody is telling you to. I'm not trying to convert you.
I'm saying that people need to stop getting so upset when someone recommends tool B for job X when people complain about the issues with tool A.
If the people that use tool A are tired of hearing about how tool B doesn't have the issues they're facing with tool A, then maybe those people should stop publicly talking about those issues.
Vegans care about the well-being of other creatures, so that's actually a kind comparison.
Too kind for me. There would be more software made for me if others stopped letting proprietary software take advantage of them.
You must've kept the button pressed too long. Oh well.
No harm done
I'm working on that
But can you remove Windows from Windows?
Delete system 32
Nice try, but you need permission from SYSTEM to delete system32.
Throw a brick at Windows to brick it.
You need to triforce it.
Does this also impact Apple, will they also need to allow removing Safari? If yes, is it possible that they might allow removing other things like iMessage and Apple TV?
On macOS it's always been possible to remove built in apps. To do so now though requires disabling SIP and mounting as R/W. Then you can use something like this to remove all traces https://freemacsoft.net/appcleaner/
They regenerate after an update, there is also a way to remove Edge on Windows by manually running the uninstaller from the terminal with some options, but that doesn't change the fact that it's not easy and you can't just uninstall it like any other app.
there is also a way to remove Edge on Windows by manually running the uninstaller from the terminal with some options
Well to this statement, no. Microsoft disabled that method with the release of 22H2. Attempting to do so now does nothing. I was aware of this and it was shared on Reddit and other forums all the time until it stopped working. In fact, just six months ago people were sharing it on Reddit and realized it wasn't working. https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/140d0y2/how_do_i_uninstall_microsoft_edge/
I do agree with the sentiment. It should be easy to uninstall these apps.
Manually removing the files is still an option 😈
I don't understand why they won't allow it even with the command line. People who hate Edge and want to uninstall it to free up disk space should be able to. They will never use it anyway (max accidentally).
If even MS themselves calls it "benefits", why not enable it for all by default?
Because fuck you.
Why is this a topic at all? Don't you own your machine?
I'm surprised I own my shoes at this point. Any tech bros wanna take care of that with an app?
The year is 2030. You will own nothing, and you will be happy.
I'm already so happy. How much happier can I get? 😢
C'mon bro, its nowhere near that facile although I'll concede that once people are more aware of the options, it might help get things going in the right direction. Bes positive and joyfully share you expertise ;)
So far, but try uninstalling Edge and then imagine an average non-technical user trying to.
I give it less than a year before this goes the way of the Windows 10 start menu registry tweak.
Can you just do right click uninstall? or do you have to follow a 12 step hacker method that would cause updates to stop working until you reinstall windows again?
Windows has become the most bloated ad-infested spyware os in existance and more people are leaving it more than ever before. In just few more years, it will be a thing of the past
Reading the article, you do some registry edits to tell Windows that it's in Europe. Then you uninstall as if you were in Europe. No word on what other consequences this might have.
I use Linux sometimes, too... But like... This shit is getting so old.
We get it, you like Linux. Now let people talk about other platforms without constantly talking about your platform.
your platform.
You do realize you're posting this on a opensource platform, which runs on Linux, and is maintained by volunteers who are enthusiastic about this stuff?
If you don't like all the Linux talk here, feel free to move to a proprietary platform instead, maybe one with a red alien logo...
I don't get why you're offended by someone jokingly pushing Linux?
To be fair, there are so many opportunities to make these jokes because of how Microsoft behaves that maybe that's the real issue here?
It doesn't look like they're getting offended to me.
Imagine you have a friend that you see daily. Every time you see them, they make the same joke. How quickly do you think you'll get tired of the joke?
Everyone here makes the joke only once. But you have many friends here!
Stop driving into things, Jerry, and we'll stop making jokes about how you hit them!
Because Linux, by its very nature, is the solution to these kinds problems, but if you insist on suffering through using Windows thats on you.
Last time I used Linux it came with its own bag of problems like hunting down drivers and incompatibility issues and random bugs that wouldn't let me use the wifi without digging up solutions in some obscure forum. Maybe it's not the case anymore but I don't hear many people lauding it for its competitive UX and ease of use.
GNOME's UX has come a looong way in just like 3 years.
I assume the same is true for KDE now that Valve is investing money in it.
I hope so! Nothing against Linux but it did feel a bit like a raw steak at times 😅
I understand how it can feel that way when you are not used to Linux. I felt the same way in the beggining when I was learning it.
Out of all mainstream desktops, GNOME is the only one which dares to create a new workflow which is simple yet very powerful
familiarity of kde is good too.
and its just getting better and better too!
Huh, my experience is the exact opposite. On Linux there was zero hunting for drivers of any kind. At all. They were all just included in the Linux kernel. Out of the box drivers for everything I had.
On windows it was: ok first I need my motherboard chipset driver, now I need my WiFi driver, and now my graphics driver, now the driver for this microphone, and finally the driver for this controller.
Each of which I had to search online for the right website, download an installer, run an installer, and delete the installer afterwards.
I eat food sometimes, too... But like... This is getting so old.
We get it, you like food. Now let people talk about eating human shit without constantly talking about what you put in your mouth.
We just want to eat human shit in peace. Stop telling us there’s a better way, we get it, you don’t like human shit and you think we should be eating food instead. Stop preaching about it.
I mean... Linux does solve the problem described. Why pay for a platform with the problem when the solution is free?
You think i'm paying for windows?
You've never bought a laptop with Windows?
But aside from that, even if you downloaded an ISO then cracked it, you're still paying for it in the same way you pay for Google services - with your personal information.
Let just say you don't pay... with money.
Most people who think Windows came with the computer for free don't know that the licence cost is baked into the total cost.
In Soviet Russia, Windows crash you!
Honestly, your bitching was far more intrusive than this unharmful joke. That joke was actually funny.
You're either being intellectually disingenuous, or you're new to Lemmy. Every goddamn thread about Windows here ends up littered with "jokes" about how great Linux is, and how shitty Windows is.
It's beyond exhausting at this point.
And the goddamn distros can’t even support a fingerprint reader nor a nvidia card, or forces you to do some terminal voodoo to make the thing work, or crashes without warning after an update.
But somehow that’s better than Windows. -_-
to be fair its not Linux that doesnt support nvidia, its the other way around.
and it works fine if you dont have more specific use cases.
It's Nvidia that has poor support for some standards, not the other way around.
And it's not like people don't run into issues, probably more often, with Windows update. The last time I updated Windows my audio got fucked and even rolling back the update and reinstalling audio drivers didn't work. I had to reinstall windows entirely, which takes a bizarrely long time.
And yeah, IMO, it's far better than Windows, and it's not even close. But it's just a tool. Use Windows if you want to use Windows.
Windows fanboys will justify anything just because it locks them in and forces them to use it. People with stockholm syndrone justifying terrible anti-consumer decisions by Microsoft are the ones really exhausting me.
Use it if you want to, or need to, but don't be mad at the people actually trying to come up with and improve the solutions we have.
I just want a PC that works and linux ain't it hun
Funny how my Linux PC works flawlessly without intervention then.
Funny, this is my main gripe with Windows. It doesn't just work in the same way Linux does. I get an update, it takes 5-25 seconds and everything still works, every time.
I get a Windows update and I'm filled with dread crossing my fingers everything still works when it finally reboots, and that it hasn't "accidentally" reset all the telemetry settings I turned off.
Plus not having to hunt for drivers and use weird installers for software that I have to hunt for online. Some windows listening to my dark mode preference and others not, etc etc.
To me, my PC is just a tool. I don't care what runs on it, as long as it works reliably, is intuitive, looks cohesive, and doesn't get in my way. Windows unfortunately doesn't hold up to that.
Again with the WU psychosis, get new material
Have you considered that the reason people complain about Windows Update is because Windows Update is frustrating to use? Or is that too complex a thought?
Even people who have zero intention of ever switching generally find updates on windows far more frustrating than they do on say iOS or Android.
Because Windows Update is frustrating to use.
Honestly the lengths people will go to to simp for their $2.75tn buddy is hilarious. We're saying Windows update is good now?
Except I've never had problems with it, they only seem to affect insufferable linux shills
At least we're shilling for a community of passionate volunteers working towards something greater rather than a billion dollar company with a history of anti-consumer behaviour. Yeah, we're the idiots
Not even a billion dollar company, a 2.8 trillion dollar company, who has a past, present, and no doubt future of treating their own customers like cattle.
People have this weird thing where if they use a product, they see any criticism of that product as an attack on themselves. It's bizarre.
To these people, pointing out that I don't like how Windows does X is an attack on their very soul. It's telling them that their choices are bad and that they should feel bad. It's telling them that they're an idiot.
To me, it makes no sense whatsoever. It's not a personal attack lmao
Hit the nail on the head in the last analysis, chief.
Linux shills lmao, as if, idk, Linus Torvalds or some sinister chubby penguin mascot is paying people off...
I think you're paranoid
I have experienced issues with Windows update. Many times. I've even had bricked hardware from it. And they're well documented.
I trust my eyes and all the reporting a hell of a lot more than some random salty Microsoft shill online lol
A youtuber that actually devs and provides tools for the public?
What a gigachad.
Still waiting for that LTSC
A reminder that you own your machine.
If you chose the paid-spyware OS, why complain about it?
Linux users when somebody doesn't type out an essay to install a program
What I do to install software on my Linux PC:
Open the app store. Search. Click install. Done.
Updates are done through the same app store that I used to install it.
What I do to install software on my Windows PC:
Open my web browser. Search for the software. Pick the right website (with most software this is easy, for some software it's not immediately clear, be careful not to download from a dodgy site). Navigate to the downloads page. Pick 64-bit Windows (not Mac!). Press download. Open file explorer. Navigate to Downloads. Find the installer exe. Double click. Go through the installer. Press next/tick/untick options. Press finish. Go back to the file explorer, delete the installer exe. Go to my desktop, delete the shortcut it has added (I hate it how every installer seems to do this!)
Updates are either done when I open the app and it does a check, which is frustrating, when I open an app I want it to open, I don't want to see a prompt to update, OR through a separate updater app that runs at startup, making my PC sluggish at boot.
There are shortcomings in Linux, and there are things Windows does pretty well. It's funny that you picked the thing Linux is literally the best at hands down, and Windows is the worst at, hands down. It'd be like if you complained about MacOS not being visually consistent lol
You should have picked something that Linux is genuinely bad at, like HDR support or something.
E: pictures say a thousand words. Here's the difference:
Again, truly, I'm not here to say Windows is unusable and Linux is perfect, but of all the examples to praise windows and shit on Linux for, you chose software installation? Are you actually insane?? lmao
You missed the bit where you scan it with an antivirus program which flags it but the download site says that might happen and you have to decide who to believe
I'm sorry, but the "fragmentation" of Linux distros and the number of ways to install a program on Linux are also issues.
On Linux (or at least Ubuntu), you have to manage sources to install some programs, and that is WAY too complex for an end user. Fine, you can always use the CLI or search online, but then you run into fragmentation issues. "Why is there no Ubuntu download? Do I click the RPM one?"
On Windows, yes, it's more clicks on average, but it's a very consistent experience across all programs. You either open up the Microsoft Store, or you Google the name of the program you want and hit "next" until it's done. No managing sources and no deciding which file extension you need. The only issue would be deciding between 32 bit and 64 bit.
No, you search the store, pick the app, press install. The end user doesn't care or know whether the package manager is installing a flatpak or an RPM.
It's not like people installing Windows programs need to know whether the installer is an .exe or an .MSI file, they just know that pressing the installer they downloaded brings up an installer. They don't need to know about the low-level packaging fundamentals.
It's not just more clicks on average, it's more confusion, more prone to installing non-genuine software, and still fragmented. Do I install 32 bit? 64? Arm32? Arm64?
As for there are too many ways to install a program, what nonsense is that? You're not made to open the terminal, just as you are not made to open powershell and use Winget. You can literally use this exact same argument against windows, yet you aren't.
Look at the pictures I linked to. One is far easier than the other, and Windows isn't the easy one.
Uhm actually its very easy you just
Sudo apt ant sofo lror irir 8 6 9 7778 k j hofor -76
And press enter and debug your missing dependencies for the next two weeks, I mean how hard is that?
You're so incredibly dumb. Smart people know that you should really write a script with vim and then run it. I only had to restart my computer once before saving!
I once got stuck in vim. I had to kill it. Then I uninstalled it.
I wish Nano was the default on everything. The fact that Git on Windows uses Vim is so incredibly annoying.
More like:
Search in the app store, press install.
As opposed to the absolute nightmare of finding executables on random websites, downloading them, running an installer program, pressing next a bunch of times, then deleting the installer afterwards.
App management is something Linux does very well, and Windows very poorly.
On no other OS is it the norm to do it like you're expected to do it on Windows.
I can chat about bad points in Linux all day, I'm not blind to the faults of any of these OSes, but a Windows user saying installing software on Linux is hard really does have me giggling
E: pictures say a thousand words. Here's the difference:
E2: people still saying installing apps in Windows is easier despite photographic evidence to the contrary cannot be helped. You've gone too deep. Next you'll be saying climate change isn't real and the earth is flat lmao. The evidence is right there in front of you!
Tbf Microsoft wants you to rely on their store to install things. People just don't trust it, for obvious reasons.
That's true. And if they actually did more vetting of their app store I'd probably use it!
But right now it seems to be full of software that isn't updated as frequently as the separate installers for some reason, missing almost all apps, or has open source apps uploaded by someone who isn't the original developer, and charging money for it...
Even if they vetted their apps properly, I'd still not want to use it tbh. Microsoft is untrustworthy, even from a "massive corporation" perspective.
I'm afraid Linux is more complex for most regular people.
Yes, a lot of stuff is managed by a package manager (though you have to decide between 2-3 options of the same app, as one is flatpak and one is something else you've never come across before) and when that works, it's great. But it's far from comprehensive.
I'd rather press 'next' or 'ok' a few times than have to learn an entirely new and non-intuituve language and interface just to add an app or driver that is among the 20% of stuff that still won't just work out the box.
I really don't know where you're getting this impression from.
I search for software. It's there, I see an install button. I press it. You can click a drop down to pick between, say, an RPM package or a flatpak, but it's not something a normal user would do.
Installing windows programs, as I've already said, is a lot more than just pressing ok. It relies on knowing what site to pick, finding the download page, picking the right installer, finding the exe you downloaded, going through the install wizard, deleting the installer after.
It's not easier. IMO app management is the biggest weakness of Windows. There's a reason genuinely no other OS has that as the standard way to install programs.
I don't understand the part about learning a new language either? What? I open the app store, I search, I press install. There's no need for multiple languages? And the interface is a lot more intuitive than finding the right download on every single website, that all look different, and going through every installer, most of which look different.
Seriously, if you were talking about idk, HDR or gaming (outside of emulation where it's a solid Linux win) or something, I'd be agreeing with you and saying Windows is easier, despite Valve getting Linux pretty close.
But installing programs? Nah, Windows is the one that's a complicated clusterfuck. People are just used to it so they don't really think about it.
E: lmao you people are downvoting yet you can't refute it. Stop simping for a $2.8tn dollar company. I've already proven what I've said is true. Me criticising an OS isn't a personal attack lol, stop fanboying.
I'm getting this impression as someone who just installed Linux mint, because people like yourself who say there won't be problems and it will all just work. It didn't. There were problems, and there still are.
Even on Linux I still have to search online for info and for what app to install to meet my needs. Which also relies on knowing what site to trust, and what info you find varies hugely from helpful to incomprehensible for a beginner. Especially when there's a hundred unfamiliar options.
The whole finding downloading and installing something on windows is straightforward for most people. Search, go to site, select, install, follow instructions. Done. I'm not sure why you're making it sound like some frought and impenetrable nightmare. There's also the windows app store for (like the mint package manager) about 80% of stuff.
Honestly, I don't find the package manager much different, since I still need to search for something (to identify the right software / tool etc). And hope it's included in the package manager. Then I'm asked to approve some dependencys that I have no way, as a beginner, of evaluating of they're safe or not. So just click ok, and just have to trust the package manager / software (Another click) is safe. No different to me that some downloaded executable on windows.
And as for the different versions, yes, I mean why are there two or three versions of Firefox when I search in the Mint package manager? What makes flatpak ine different from the other one? How can I evaluate ? As a new user, even the descriptions don't help.
And when I say a new language, I'm talking about having to go into the terminal (?) And enter a bunch of unfamiliar commands that I have no idea if they're the right or safe thing to do, In order to be able to get something to work. In my case a switch pro controller and an Xbox one controller (when the pro didn't work). Both of which just work on windows. That's just one example, and I don't think it's an especially unique or niche one for someone coming from windows. Got them to work on Yuzu, but wouldn't work with a browser for some reason.
To be clear, I'm not dissing Linux (nor you!) I just don't believe it's easier that Windows, nor does it yet feel ready to help a new user do fairly 'normal' stuff they might want to. I also recently started using a Mac, and while that was laerning curve, it was still far more novice friendly than Mint. In my experience.
I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. I didn't mean to do that.
I'm getting this impression as someone who just installed Linux mint, because people like yourself who say there won't be problems
Anybody who tells you you won't experience any issues on a piece of software as large, capable, and complex as a desktop OS is lying. Don't tell me I'm a person who'd say that, because I'm not. You will face an issue from time to time on Linux. You will face an issue from time to time on Windows. You will face an issue from time to time on MacOS.
Even on Linux I still have to search online for info and for what app to install to meet my needs. Which also relies on knowing what site to trust, and what info you find varies hugely from helpful to incomprehensible for a beginner. Especially when there's a hundred unfamiliar options.
Applies just as much to Windows (or Mac) as it does to Linux. We aren't born with intimate knowledge of every program ever made.
At least on Mac or Linux the app stores (that people actually use btw) have app categories and spotlights on apps to help you find good ones.
The whole finding downloading and installing something on windows is straightforward
I'm sorry but no it isn't. You're just used to it. There's a difference. It's an awful and potentially dangerous way to get software. It's worse and it's needlessly cumbersome and complicated.
I keep repeating this, but there is a reason nobody else follows that model.
To me, it's a fatal flaw in Windows that Microsoft needs to sort out. I'm struggling to even sum up in words how much of a broken system it is. There's no defending it. Even Microsoft themselves acknowledge it's a broken system.
E: pictures say a thousand words. Here's the difference:
Come on. Don't try to gaslight me into thinking that's intuitive, straightforward, or convenient. Because it isn't. You're lying to me and to yourself.
There's also the windows app store
Which has barely any apps, a malware problem, and is full of open source apps uploaded by people who aren't the original developer, charging money for them. Even the most die hard windows fans think the Windows store is bad.
And when I say a new language, I'm talking about having to go into the terminal (?) And enter a bunch of unfamiliar commands
You don't need to use the terminal. I could make this same complaint about the command prompt, powershell, or windows terminal (why are there 3, btw, Microsoft?! Why make this needlessly confusing??) Or about having to navigate the nightmare that is the Windows Registry when something doesn't work.
In my case a switch pro controller and an Xbox one controller (when the pro didn't work). Both of which just work on windows.
Huh. I have the opposite experience. I plug a controlled into my Linux PC, it just works. Not the same on windows. Ironically, Microsoft's own controllers work better on Linux than they do on Windows. And don't get me started on using PlayStation controllers on Windows.
Just to set the record straight: I'm not trying to gaslight you. I'm sharing my newbie Linux journey, which hasn't been as smooth as I hoped.
Linux's centralised app management is neat, but for a Windows convert, figuring out which Linux apps to use isn't straightforward. Deciding between numerous unfamiliar software options isn't much different from the Windows method you described – it's just swapping out the final step of installer downloads for package manager searches. What I'm saying is that, yes, you're technicallycorrect. But in terms of pratical experience, the difference isn't that significant.
The package manager is a mixed bag. Yes, it's probably safer, but as a beginner, I'm still placing my trust in it blindly, just like I would with any Windows software site. And navigating it? It's like a sweet shop, but one where I can't tell one sweet from another. Maybe I don't need to? Maybe there's actually some huge benefit or negative of one version over the other? I don't know, I'll have to research it... again.
The descriptions don't tell me either. For instance, my Linux Mint shows two versions of VLC (one with the familiar icon), and a bunch of other VLC stuff, which I'm sure is super helpful for people who need whatever they are, but it leaves me baffled.
Then there's the terminal – Linux's "user-friendly" feature (/s). To fix something as simple as a controller, I'm thrust into a world of cryptic commands, that, unless I want to spend weeks learning, I have to take on faith aren't the linux equivalent of deleting system32... It's a steep climb compared to the familiar process of downloading and installing drivers on Windows.
So, while I recognise each OS has its strengths and weaknesses, for someone fresh to Linux, it can feel like you need a Computer Science degree for what's a walk in the park on Windows.And yes, that's due to familiarity. Maybe even Stokholme Syndrome...
___
but for a Windows convert, figuring out which Linux apps to use isn't straightforward.
That's a problem with any system. You can say that about moving to iOS, Android, Windows, Mac, Linux.
Deciding between numerous unfamiliar software options isn't much different from the Windows method
Yes it is, it's very different. I've shown you the difference.
But in terms of pratical experience, the difference isn't that significant.
No, the practical difference is huge, and I've shown you that! It's far less complicated, far less cumbersome, far more intuitive, and also considerably safer on Linux than it is on windows.
I like Windows, I do. I use it every day. I could list a dozen things I think Windows does very well. But the biggest issue I have with Windows is that managing software on it makes me want to pull my teeth out. It is hands down the worst operating system that is still in use in that regard.
That's not me being dramatic or exaggerating. It is the worst actively used operating system that exists for managing software, and it's not even close.
No amount of writing I can do can sum up how bad it is in that regard.
Again, I need to reiterate this. Microsoft has stated themselves that they think it's a bad system. No other OS has tried to do it this way, for good reason.
Please stop pretending they're on par, because they're not.
Yes, it's probably safer
Verifiably safer.
terminal
Stop talking about the terminal. You don't need to use the terminal. If you talk about the terminal then it's only fair that I bring up command prompt, Windows terminal, and powershell. And guess what? They're even more complex than the Linux terminal, the fact that there are three and you're expected to know what to use each for is another layer of confusion.
I also never said the terminal was user friendly, I've repeatedly said you shouldn't use it. Please stop putting words in my mouth.
You don't need to use the terminal. You don't need to use command prompt. You don't need to use powershell. You don't need to use Microsoft terminal.
YOU DON'T NEED TO USE THE TERMINAL.
Do I need to say it any more? It's a completely disingenuous argument.
I'm not sure why Mint lists flatpaks as a different app to their own packaged version. Other software centres I've seen don't do that, you've seen what mine looks like. But the Mint team is literally just a handful of people who make a system that's still less complicated than one from a $2.75 trillion dollar company.
This needs to happen with Appl too. AppleTV/Safari/Messages/etc app for MacOS + SIP my ass. Its not integral and if you've made it so you need to unmake it so, along with other bundled crap. SIP should literally refer to that and only that in aggregate which is necessary to ensure the system is able to function, not per se function in an un-overruleable way for the maker.
Don't forget TV brands like samsung and LG who force some apps down your throat even if you don't want them. You can't remove those apps. Amazon is even worse with their firetv devices, they just install apps on your behalf that you can't remove. We don't own anything anymore.
Ya but I can just use a box and not have the TV itself connected to the internet and you can have it in gaming mode so you basically never see the splash screen with all tha crap
I do this as well, but the smart TV bullshit on my Vizio constantly switches itself back on.
I have a button on my remote now that fixes my input by switching to the box in one fell swoop because this happens so much. There is no setting to stop this, as I already have it set to not change the input.
Yes. They should allow removing apps like Safari and, as you said, Apple TV, iMessage, and other non-basic (on a computer) utilities, then downloading them again from the App Store.
On an unrelated note, I also turn off SIP to change the icons of system apps.
Wait Windows users are allowed to manage their software ?!? Get out of town.
As a certified windows user, can confirm, I do not have free will to install anything
yes, and it's easier than linux
checks notes Registry editing?
You can remove Windows completely from your life with very little effort, no matter where you live and it's free! In the world of today there is no need whatsoever for that exploitive and in short bad OS anymore.
This comment is so out of touch.
I work in CAD and 3D printing and I'd be completely dead in the water if I used Linux.
No fusion 360, no cura
I bet there are plenty of other apps that I rely on that are not available on Linux.
I'm not some sort of Windows fanboy either. I'm disgusted with their action in the recent years.
I run Linux on my home server, but not my main computing machine
Let's be realistic here, your experience is not universal
To be fair, PrusaSlicer and its derivatives do have native Linux support. And you can use Onshape from the browser on Linux just fine and it is honestly really good. I do a lot of this stuff too
I’m not an expert, but I really doubt that most open source software can compete with the features and support of enterprise products. In almost every industry there are FOSS alternatives to professional software, but they mostly get ignored. If you really could pump out the same quality of work as quickly, I don’t think that most companies would forego the opportunity to save some money on licensing fees.
Well, first off I wasn't presenting a "FOSS first" argument here. Onshape is a closed-source browser based CAD software but it works really well and I enjoy it. PrusaSlicer IS FOSS, but it is developed by the folks at Prusa who build the Prusa i3 printers - it is widely considered to be the "standard" for 3D printing slicers, better than CURA for sure.
Second off, this argument has an element of truth but kind of misses the plot. It is DEFINITELY possible for FOSS to be better and widely used and there are a couple of examples. I don't have a ton of time right now but just for fun I'll list a few. Blender is a great one, don't really need to explain how good it is. Also, KiCAD is really good these days too, second only to Altium. There are many more as well!
I agree that’s it’s possible, and hopefully it gets to be more common in the future. It’s hard to compete with professional software since they often have large full-time dev and support teams, but there is a handful of examples of FOSS software that debatably outperform the competition.
unless you want your programs to run
I mean some stuff is still running windows 98. What programs are you really needing to run?
Same ol Adobe and Microsoft products
God I love people that pretend switching to Linux is for everyone. They’re the same dipshits that install Mint on their grandmothers machine without asking, then get defensive when she takes issue with it.
I installed Linux Mint and I encrypted the drive for my sister ( a 20 yo old laptop ), her kids use it to play games now and they absolutely love it
her husband uses it for word docs, and browsing the web and his happy with it, he wanted to pay me for my effort
There is a catch .... They think it's macOS 😂😭
I want to say that there’s no way people would install Linux without consent on someone else’s machine, but people have done crazier things.
I think almost every Microsoft product has a FOSS alternative (that works in windows usually too) if you want to get away from them. GamePass/The Xbox app/Windows store doesn't, but that's almost it. If there isn't an alternative, it's not unlikely that it'll work through WINE. What software specifically are you looking for?
Microsoft office and games with anticheat are two big categories.
There are alternatives for office. LibreOffice, which has been around forever.
As for anti-cheat, yeah that's up to the devs. Easy Anti-cheat supports Linux in the latest version, but it requires developers to implement it. I've been playing Hunt Showdown and it's fine. Counterstrike obviously works. I'd say on average, most anti-cheat is fine. It does require actual effort on the devs though, unlike games that just run with WINE/Proton totally fine most of the time without them doing anything.
LibreOffice is great if you don’t need perfect compatibility with Microsoft office. If you do, the only good option is, well Microsoft Office.
Which also has online options, so...
Ableton Live with plugins is osx or windows. Windows if you want custom hardware in any meaningful sense.
I got a good one. That mandatory garbage Cricut software.
Which one? apache2? mysql? php-fpm? python? ftp? smb? nodejs?
Not sure about you, but I'm using those to make my living.
Agreed, I hate how people blindly use Windows because "that's what my shitty HP laptop shipped with"
...unless you have a machine that doesn't run linux well.
If it's been a while you could try again as the kernel gets updated with support for various hardware.
One of my laptops was awful with Linux but after a good while I tried reinstalling a fresh distro and it ran like a dream.
Yeah. Many of the complaints surrounding Linux and hardware are BS. But complaints about Linux running well on cutting edge hardware are often founded.
Linux devs can only stary supporting new hardware once they have access to it or to accurate specs. Often, this is only once the hardware has been released.
But 6-month old, and moreso 1-year old hardware? Generally works like a (good) dream.
This is why hardware vendors that design for Linux are so important (thanks, System 76!).
Yeah. I was thinking of a particular gaming laptop, which does run almost perfectly with the latest kernels. But it's not all the way there yet.
As in the PC has some hardware which only has proprietary drivers from the manufacturer?
Correct.
You can run linux on just any hardware, yet somehow the capitalist still manage to fuck it up.
Or newer open source drivers that are buggy or missing features.
Sort of?
I run Visual Studio Enterprise, no, VS Code is not sufficient for some needs.
I have to edit complex PDFs in Adobe. Free, open source readers are not enough.
Even the best linux RDP or WebRTC or otherwise apps still don't seem to provide quite the same speed as RDP into windows hosts/servers.
I have to use Teams daily across multiple orgs, and the seemingly discontinued Linux support in lieu of the less-featured browser app / PWA just doesn't fly.
I've found building windows apps on Linux, while seemingly supposed to be net similar, often times do not turn out right.
Need full featured O365 to integrate with your work's O365? No go. Closest is installing edge on Linux and using the web version, which is subpar.
I hate windows, I use Linux when I can, but to say you can remove it from your life with very little effort is a blanket statement that is just unrealistic for many. To say there is no need is just off base.
Source: I use Windows, PopOS, KDE, Mint, and that apple OS thing that I hate more than Windows.
I agree it's very easy and takes very little force to remove windows from your life. Adopting another OS in the other hand...
Like that would fix the OS.
Way too late...I switched away from Windows 100% already. Linux works perfectly fine.
Too many of the programs I use are Windows only.
Like what? I've found alternatives or many run just fine using Wine. Might run a little slower if your computer is older, but likely everything else is running faster on Linux anyway, so it makes up for it.
I use many proprietary pieces of software that are only available for Windows.
I find that unless that software needs access to hardware, or is very performance sensitive or uses some newer Windows APIs, most of the time Wine can run it. I still have Windows installed for those few things that require it. But over time that has become less and less.
I even had to grab the TP-Link easysmart configuration utility yesterday to configure an old managed switch and the exe ran perfect on Wine. I was honestly quite surprised. In fact I first started it up and it didn't detect anything and I was afraid it was incompatible, but turned out the second NIC in my PC was just set up on the same config in network manager because I had been playing around with some stuff. It also runs the old Windows Epson Scanner software and drivers that my old scanner requires that no longer work in Windows 11.
Anyway, for old proprietary stuff I find that Wine emulates older Windows and DOS better than Windows 10 or 11.
Tell that to someone that uses fusion 360 to earn their living.
If you are just going to Facebook and downloading movies and stuff sure...
Linux is great for my home server, terrible for my main machine.
It runs just fine https://github.com/cryinkfly/Autodesk-Fusion-360-for-Linux
Your problem is using your personal machine for work.
Why the hell would I buy an entire different machine just for web browsing and games? Should also get a third one for porn? Lol
It's great that Linux works for you but you need to realize that it does not work for everyone yet. Your experience is not the same as everyone else's. If I could run every application I need on Linux I would switch today. I am not happy about my dependence on Windows, but I live in reality
Or just use Bulk Crap Uninstaller
I just bulk crap uninstalled windows and moved to Linux
Linux users truly are the vegans of the tech world.
Ain't that the truth
They seriously cannot stop talking about Linux... At this point, It's endlessly annoying, as it's on literally every post about any operating system.
Nearly every post is about Windows or MacOS yet when someone mentions Linux suddenly it's a problem?
I also hate how Windows and MacOS are mentioned on every post about operating systems yet here we are. Why is no-one talking about Temple OS?
But seriously why doesn't your rule apply to the other operating systems? Perhaps no-one is promoting Windows because it's not the OS they chose, it's the OS they got and it's their god given right to be miserable and make sure everyone else is.
How dare I care about my operating system choice and how I use my computer. How dare I recommend it to other people. How dare I try to convince them to give it a go because it might be better for them. As a Linux user I am truly scum, the worst of the worst.
Do you think people never hear about Windows, iOS, Android, etc?
I think you just get irrationally angry when people bring up something you don't use. We get it, you use Windows btw.
I find it kinda staggering you think it's not appropriate for someone to mention alternative OSes on a submission where people are criticising an OS lol.
Let's apply that thinking to another product: Samsung TV does bad thing. Do you think it would be inappropriate or unusual for commenters to mention that other TV brands exist? If not, then why is it different for this other tool?
It's not like there an infinite number of OSs. Unless you have a Mac the choice is basically Windows or Linux.
It's absolutely logical that any operating system post will have comments pushing Linux.
I hope that one day someone makes another better OS, because Linux is annoying as well. But until then you'll have to suffer these comments.
Meantime, the BSD crowd: "am I a joke to you?"
In both cases, I've encountered a lot more people complaining about them than I have obnoxious Linux users or vegans
People actively seek out annoying people to justify themselves.
Must not be using your eyes much then, or you're just a bit selective about what you see.
This sounds like some desperate projection to me lol
We constantly hear about all the bad shit MS is doing, then somebody points out an alternative, and then people like you get pissed off about it. "NO. I don't want to hear about the alternatives! I'll stick to Microsoft, they'll stop their antics some day, I can fix
herthem ❤️"Maybe if people don't want to hear about OS alternatives, they should stop complaining about the one they have?
I don't understand the anger that springs up when people say "this isn't an issue on Linux". If your washing machine kept leaking water all over your floor, and someone said "hey have you considered getting a different one?" it'd be insane to get angry at them for that, yet it happens all the time with OSes. It's just a tool. You don't owe allegiance to an OS.
That analogy about the washing machine doesn't quite work.
I cannot run applications that I rely on for my business on Linux. It is not even an option even if I wanted to.
The hassle of switching operating systems isnt problem, It's the lack of compatibility.
Then don't use Linux for that use case? Nobody is telling you to. I'm not trying to convert you.
I'm saying that people need to stop getting so upset when someone recommends tool B for job X when people complain about the issues with tool A.
If the people that use tool A are tired of hearing about how tool B doesn't have the issues they're facing with tool A, then maybe those people should stop publicly talking about those issues.
Vegans care about the well-being of other creatures, so that's actually a kind comparison.
Too kind for me. There would be more software made for me if others stopped letting proprietary software take advantage of them.
You must've kept the button pressed too long. Oh well.
No harm done
I'm working on that
But can you remove Windows from Windows?
Delete system 32
Nice try, but you need permission from SYSTEM to delete system32.
Throw a brick at Windows to brick it.
You need to triforce it.
Does this also impact Apple, will they also need to allow removing Safari? If yes, is it possible that they might allow removing other things like iMessage and Apple TV?
On macOS it's always been possible to remove built in apps. To do so now though requires disabling SIP and mounting as R/W. Then you can use something like this to remove all traces https://freemacsoft.net/appcleaner/
They regenerate after an update, there is also a way to remove Edge on Windows by manually running the uninstaller from the terminal with some options, but that doesn't change the fact that it's not easy and you can't just uninstall it like any other app.
Well to this statement, no. Microsoft disabled that method with the release of 22H2. Attempting to do so now does nothing. I was aware of this and it was shared on Reddit and other forums all the time until it stopped working. In fact, just six months ago people were sharing it on Reddit and realized it wasn't working. https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/140d0y2/how_do_i_uninstall_microsoft_edge/
I do agree with the sentiment. It should be easy to uninstall these apps.
Manually removing the files is still an option 😈
I don't understand why they won't allow it even with the command line. People who hate Edge and want to uninstall it to free up disk space should be able to. They will never use it anyway (max accidentally).
If even MS themselves calls it "benefits", why not enable it for all by default?
Because fuck you.
Why is this a topic at all? Don't you own your machine?
I'm surprised I own my shoes at this point. Any tech bros wanna take care of that with an app?
The year is 2030. You will own nothing, and you will be happy.
I'm already so happy. How much happier can I get? 😢
C'mon bro, its nowhere near that facile although I'll concede that once people are more aware of the options, it might help get things going in the right direction. Bes positive and joyfully share you expertise ;)
So far, but try uninstalling Edge and then imagine an average non-technical user trying to.
I give it less than a year before this goes the way of the Windows 10 start menu registry tweak.
Can you just do right click uninstall? or do you have to follow a 12 step hacker method that would cause updates to stop working until you reinstall windows again?
Windows has become the most bloated ad-infested spyware os in existance and more people are leaving it more than ever before. In just few more years, it will be a thing of the past
Reading the article, you do some registry edits to tell Windows that it's in Europe. Then you uninstall as if you were in Europe. No word on what other consequences this might have.
This is what I want to know as well. Is it a simple process or more involved?
Here is a link to the uninstaller.
You Linux supremecists are so edgy...
I use Linux sometimes, too... But like... This shit is getting so old.
We get it, you like Linux. Now let people talk about other platforms without constantly talking about your platform.
You do realize you're posting this on a opensource platform, which runs on Linux, and is maintained by volunteers who are enthusiastic about this stuff?
If you don't like all the Linux talk here, feel free to move to a proprietary platform instead, maybe one with a red alien logo...
I don't get why you're offended by someone jokingly pushing Linux?
To be fair, there are so many opportunities to make these jokes because of how Microsoft behaves that maybe that's the real issue here?
It doesn't look like they're getting offended to me.
Imagine you have a friend that you see daily. Every time you see them, they make the same joke. How quickly do you think you'll get tired of the joke?
Everyone here makes the joke only once. But you have many friends here!
Stop driving into things, Jerry, and we'll stop making jokes about how you hit them!
Because Linux, by its very nature, is the solution to these kinds problems, but if you insist on suffering through using Windows thats on you.
Last time I used Linux it came with its own bag of problems like hunting down drivers and incompatibility issues and random bugs that wouldn't let me use the wifi without digging up solutions in some obscure forum. Maybe it's not the case anymore but I don't hear many people lauding it for its competitive UX and ease of use.
GNOME's UX has come a looong way in just like 3 years.
I assume the same is true for KDE now that Valve is investing money in it.
I hope so! Nothing against Linux but it did feel a bit like a raw steak at times 😅
I understand how it can feel that way when you are not used to Linux. I felt the same way in the beggining when I was learning it.
Out of all mainstream desktops, GNOME is the only one which dares to create a new workflow which is simple yet very powerful
familiarity of kde is good too.
and its just getting better and better too!
Huh, my experience is the exact opposite. On Linux there was zero hunting for drivers of any kind. At all. They were all just included in the Linux kernel. Out of the box drivers for everything I had.
On windows it was: ok first I need my motherboard chipset driver, now I need my WiFi driver, and now my graphics driver, now the driver for this microphone, and finally the driver for this controller.
Each of which I had to search online for the right website, download an installer, run an installer, and delete the installer afterwards.
To me, that was a much more clunky experience.
You food supremecists are so edgy...
I eat food sometimes, too... But like... This is getting so old.
We get it, you like food. Now let people talk about eating human shit without constantly talking about what you put in your mouth.
We just want to eat human shit in peace. Stop telling us there’s a better way, we get it, you don’t like human shit and you think we should be eating food instead. Stop preaching about it.
I mean... Linux does solve the problem described. Why pay for a platform with the problem when the solution is free?
You think i'm paying for windows?
You've never bought a laptop with Windows?
But aside from that, even if you downloaded an ISO then cracked it, you're still paying for it in the same way you pay for Google services - with your personal information.
Let just say you don't pay... with money.
Most people who think Windows came with the computer for free don't know that the licence cost is baked into the total cost.
In Soviet Russia, Windows crash you!
Honestly, your bitching was far more intrusive than this unharmful joke. That joke was actually funny.
You're either being intellectually disingenuous, or you're new to Lemmy. Every goddamn thread about Windows here ends up littered with "jokes" about how great Linux is, and how shitty Windows is.
It's beyond exhausting at this point.
And the goddamn distros can’t even support a fingerprint reader nor a nvidia card, or forces you to do some terminal voodoo to make the thing work, or crashes without warning after an update.
But somehow that’s better than Windows. -_-
to be fair its not Linux that doesnt support nvidia, its the other way around.
and it works fine if you dont have more specific use cases.
It's Nvidia that has poor support for some standards, not the other way around.
And it's not like people don't run into issues, probably more often, with Windows update. The last time I updated Windows my audio got fucked and even rolling back the update and reinstalling audio drivers didn't work. I had to reinstall windows entirely, which takes a bizarrely long time.
And yeah, IMO, it's far better than Windows, and it's not even close. But it's just a tool. Use Windows if you want to use Windows.
Windows fanboys will justify anything just because it locks them in and forces them to use it. People with stockholm syndrone justifying terrible anti-consumer decisions by Microsoft are the ones really exhausting me.
Use it if you want to, or need to, but don't be mad at the people actually trying to come up with and improve the solutions we have.
I just want a PC that works and linux ain't it hun
Funny how my Linux PC works flawlessly without intervention then.
Funny, this is my main gripe with Windows. It doesn't just work in the same way Linux does. I get an update, it takes 5-25 seconds and everything still works, every time.
I get a Windows update and I'm filled with dread crossing my fingers everything still works when it finally reboots, and that it hasn't "accidentally" reset all the telemetry settings I turned off.
Plus not having to hunt for drivers and use weird installers for software that I have to hunt for online. Some windows listening to my dark mode preference and others not, etc etc.
To me, my PC is just a tool. I don't care what runs on it, as long as it works reliably, is intuitive, looks cohesive, and doesn't get in my way. Windows unfortunately doesn't hold up to that.
Again with the WU psychosis, get new material
Have you considered that the reason people complain about Windows Update is because Windows Update is frustrating to use? Or is that too complex a thought?
Even people who have zero intention of ever switching generally find updates on windows far more frustrating than they do on say iOS or Android.
Because Windows Update is frustrating to use.
Honestly the lengths people will go to to simp for their $2.75tn buddy is hilarious. We're saying Windows update is good now?
Except I've never had problems with it, they only seem to affect insufferable linux shills
At least we're shilling for a community of passionate volunteers working towards something greater rather than a billion dollar company with a history of anti-consumer behaviour. Yeah, we're the idiots
Not even a billion dollar company, a 2.8 trillion dollar company, who has a past, present, and no doubt future of treating their own customers like cattle.
People have this weird thing where if they use a product, they see any criticism of that product as an attack on themselves. It's bizarre.
To these people, pointing out that I don't like how Windows does X is an attack on their very soul. It's telling them that their choices are bad and that they should feel bad. It's telling them that they're an idiot.
To me, it makes no sense whatsoever. It's not a personal attack lmao
Hit the nail on the head in the last analysis, chief.
Linux shills lmao, as if, idk, Linus Torvalds or some sinister chubby penguin mascot is paying people off...
I think you're paranoid
I have experienced issues with Windows update. Many times. I've even had bricked hardware from it. And they're well documented.
I trust my eyes and all the reporting a hell of a lot more than some random salty Microsoft shill online lol
Too bad?
Was half-expecting Rick Astley ngl
Beat me to it!
Debloat windows if you need to use it for work or something
https://github.com/ChrisTitusTech/win10script
A youtuber that actually devs and provides tools for the public?
What a gigachad.
Still waiting for that LTSC
A reminder that you own your machine. If you chose the paid-spyware OS, why complain about it?
Linux users when somebody doesn't type out an essay to install a program
What I do to install software on my Linux PC:
Open the app store. Search. Click install. Done.
Updates are done through the same app store that I used to install it.
What I do to install software on my Windows PC:
Open my web browser. Search for the software. Pick the right website (with most software this is easy, for some software it's not immediately clear, be careful not to download from a dodgy site). Navigate to the downloads page. Pick 64-bit Windows (not Mac!). Press download. Open file explorer. Navigate to Downloads. Find the installer exe. Double click. Go through the installer. Press next/tick/untick options. Press finish. Go back to the file explorer, delete the installer exe. Go to my desktop, delete the shortcut it has added (I hate it how every installer seems to do this!)
Updates are either done when I open the app and it does a check, which is frustrating, when I open an app I want it to open, I don't want to see a prompt to update, OR through a separate updater app that runs at startup, making my PC sluggish at boot.
There are shortcomings in Linux, and there are things Windows does pretty well. It's funny that you picked the thing Linux is literally the best at hands down, and Windows is the worst at, hands down. It'd be like if you complained about MacOS not being visually consistent lol
You should have picked something that Linux is genuinely bad at, like HDR support or something.
E: pictures say a thousand words. Here's the difference:
Installing an app on Windows: https://imgur.com/a/QoLzZlk
Installing an app on Linux: https://imgur.com/a/prsi9ZW
Again, truly, I'm not here to say Windows is unusable and Linux is perfect, but of all the examples to praise windows and shit on Linux for, you chose software installation? Are you actually insane?? lmao
You missed the bit where you scan it with an antivirus program which flags it but the download site says that might happen and you have to decide who to believe
I'm sorry, but the "fragmentation" of Linux distros and the number of ways to install a program on Linux are also issues.
On Linux (or at least Ubuntu), you have to manage sources to install some programs, and that is WAY too complex for an end user. Fine, you can always use the CLI or search online, but then you run into fragmentation issues. "Why is there no Ubuntu download? Do I click the RPM one?"
On Windows, yes, it's more clicks on average, but it's a very consistent experience across all programs. You either open up the Microsoft Store, or you Google the name of the program you want and hit "next" until it's done. No managing sources and no deciding which file extension you need. The only issue would be deciding between 32 bit and 64 bit.
No, you search the store, pick the app, press install. The end user doesn't care or know whether the package manager is installing a flatpak or an RPM.
It's not like people installing Windows programs need to know whether the installer is an .exe or an .MSI file, they just know that pressing the installer they downloaded brings up an installer. They don't need to know about the low-level packaging fundamentals.
It's not just more clicks on average, it's more confusion, more prone to installing non-genuine software, and still fragmented. Do I install 32 bit? 64? Arm32? Arm64?
As for there are too many ways to install a program, what nonsense is that? You're not made to open the terminal, just as you are not made to open powershell and use Winget. You can literally use this exact same argument against windows, yet you aren't.
Look at the pictures I linked to. One is far easier than the other, and Windows isn't the easy one.
Uhm actually its very easy you just
And press enter and debug your missing dependencies for the next two weeks, I mean how hard is that?
You're so incredibly dumb. Smart people know that you should really write a script with vim and then run it. I only had to restart my computer once before saving!
I once got stuck in vim. I had to kill it. Then I uninstalled it.
I wish Nano was the default on everything. The fact that Git on Windows uses Vim is so incredibly annoying.
More like:
Search in the app store, press install.
As opposed to the absolute nightmare of finding executables on random websites, downloading them, running an installer program, pressing next a bunch of times, then deleting the installer afterwards.
App management is something Linux does very well, and Windows very poorly.
On no other OS is it the norm to do it like you're expected to do it on Windows.
I can chat about bad points in Linux all day, I'm not blind to the faults of any of these OSes, but a Windows user saying installing software on Linux is hard really does have me giggling
E: pictures say a thousand words. Here's the difference:
Installing an app on Windows: https://imgur.com/a/QoLzZlk
Installing an app on Linux: https://imgur.com/a/prsi9ZW
Need I say more?
E2: people still saying installing apps in Windows is easier despite photographic evidence to the contrary cannot be helped. You've gone too deep. Next you'll be saying climate change isn't real and the earth is flat lmao. The evidence is right there in front of you!
Tbf Microsoft wants you to rely on their store to install things. People just don't trust it, for obvious reasons.
That's true. And if they actually did more vetting of their app store I'd probably use it!
But right now it seems to be full of software that isn't updated as frequently as the separate installers for some reason, missing almost all apps, or has open source apps uploaded by someone who isn't the original developer, and charging money for it...
Even if they vetted their apps properly, I'd still not want to use it tbh. Microsoft is untrustworthy, even from a "massive corporation" perspective.
I'm afraid Linux is more complex for most regular people.
Yes, a lot of stuff is managed by a package manager (though you have to decide between 2-3 options of the same app, as one is flatpak and one is something else you've never come across before) and when that works, it's great. But it's far from comprehensive.
I'd rather press 'next' or 'ok' a few times than have to learn an entirely new and non-intuituve language and interface just to add an app or driver that is among the 20% of stuff that still won't just work out the box.
I really don't know where you're getting this impression from.
I search for software. It's there, I see an install button. I press it. You can click a drop down to pick between, say, an RPM package or a flatpak, but it's not something a normal user would do.
Installing windows programs, as I've already said, is a lot more than just pressing ok. It relies on knowing what site to pick, finding the download page, picking the right installer, finding the exe you downloaded, going through the install wizard, deleting the installer after.
It's not easier. IMO app management is the biggest weakness of Windows. There's a reason genuinely no other OS has that as the standard way to install programs.
I don't understand the part about learning a new language either? What? I open the app store, I search, I press install. There's no need for multiple languages? And the interface is a lot more intuitive than finding the right download on every single website, that all look different, and going through every installer, most of which look different.
Seriously, if you were talking about idk, HDR or gaming (outside of emulation where it's a solid Linux win) or something, I'd be agreeing with you and saying Windows is easier, despite Valve getting Linux pretty close.
But installing programs? Nah, Windows is the one that's a complicated clusterfuck. People are just used to it so they don't really think about it.
E: lmao you people are downvoting yet you can't refute it. Stop simping for a $2.8tn dollar company. I've already proven what I've said is true. Me criticising an OS isn't a personal attack lol, stop fanboying.
I'm getting this impression as someone who just installed Linux mint, because people like yourself who say there won't be problems and it will all just work. It didn't. There were problems, and there still are.
Even on Linux I still have to search online for info and for what app to install to meet my needs. Which also relies on knowing what site to trust, and what info you find varies hugely from helpful to incomprehensible for a beginner. Especially when there's a hundred unfamiliar options.
The whole finding downloading and installing something on windows is straightforward for most people. Search, go to site, select, install, follow instructions. Done. I'm not sure why you're making it sound like some frought and impenetrable nightmare. There's also the windows app store for (like the mint package manager) about 80% of stuff.
Honestly, I don't find the package manager much different, since I still need to search for something (to identify the right software / tool etc). And hope it's included in the package manager. Then I'm asked to approve some dependencys that I have no way, as a beginner, of evaluating of they're safe or not. So just click ok, and just have to trust the package manager / software (Another click) is safe. No different to me that some downloaded executable on windows.
And as for the different versions, yes, I mean why are there two or three versions of Firefox when I search in the Mint package manager? What makes flatpak ine different from the other one? How can I evaluate ? As a new user, even the descriptions don't help.
And when I say a new language, I'm talking about having to go into the terminal (?) And enter a bunch of unfamiliar commands that I have no idea if they're the right or safe thing to do, In order to be able to get something to work. In my case a switch pro controller and an Xbox one controller (when the pro didn't work). Both of which just work on windows. That's just one example, and I don't think it's an especially unique or niche one for someone coming from windows. Got them to work on Yuzu, but wouldn't work with a browser for some reason.
To be clear, I'm not dissing Linux (nor you!) I just don't believe it's easier that Windows, nor does it yet feel ready to help a new user do fairly 'normal' stuff they might want to. I also recently started using a Mac, and while that was laerning curve, it was still far more novice friendly than Mint. In my experience.
I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. I didn't mean to do that.
Anybody who tells you you won't experience any issues on a piece of software as large, capable, and complex as a desktop OS is lying. Don't tell me I'm a person who'd say that, because I'm not. You will face an issue from time to time on Linux. You will face an issue from time to time on Windows. You will face an issue from time to time on MacOS.
Applies just as much to Windows (or Mac) as it does to Linux. We aren't born with intimate knowledge of every program ever made.
At least on Mac or Linux the app stores (that people actually use btw) have app categories and spotlights on apps to help you find good ones.
I'm sorry but no it isn't. You're just used to it. There's a difference. It's an awful and potentially dangerous way to get software. It's worse and it's needlessly cumbersome and complicated.
I keep repeating this, but there is a reason nobody else follows that model.
To me, it's a fatal flaw in Windows that Microsoft needs to sort out. I'm struggling to even sum up in words how much of a broken system it is. There's no defending it. Even Microsoft themselves acknowledge it's a broken system.
E: pictures say a thousand words. Here's the difference:
Installing an app on Windows: https://imgur.com/a/QoLzZlk
Installing an app on Linux: https://imgur.com/a/prsi9ZW
Come on. Don't try to gaslight me into thinking that's intuitive, straightforward, or convenient. Because it isn't. You're lying to me and to yourself.
Which has barely any apps, a malware problem, and is full of open source apps uploaded by people who aren't the original developer, charging money for them. Even the most die hard windows fans think the Windows store is bad.
You don't need to use the terminal. I could make this same complaint about the command prompt, powershell, or windows terminal (why are there 3, btw, Microsoft?! Why make this needlessly confusing??) Or about having to navigate the nightmare that is the Windows Registry when something doesn't work.
Huh. I have the opposite experience. I plug a controlled into my Linux PC, it just works. Not the same on windows. Ironically, Microsoft's own controllers work better on Linux than they do on Windows. And don't get me started on using PlayStation controllers on Windows.
Just to set the record straight: I'm not trying to gaslight you. I'm sharing my newbie Linux journey, which hasn't been as smooth as I hoped.
Linux's centralised app management is neat, but for a Windows convert, figuring out which Linux apps to use isn't straightforward. Deciding between numerous unfamiliar software options isn't much different from the Windows method you described – it's just swapping out the final step of installer downloads for package manager searches. What I'm saying is that, yes, you're technicallycorrect. But in terms of pratical experience, the difference isn't that significant.
The package manager is a mixed bag. Yes, it's probably safer, but as a beginner, I'm still placing my trust in it blindly, just like I would with any Windows software site. And navigating it? It's like a sweet shop, but one where I can't tell one sweet from another. Maybe I don't need to? Maybe there's actually some huge benefit or negative of one version over the other? I don't know, I'll have to research it... again.
The descriptions don't tell me either. For instance, my Linux Mint shows two versions of VLC (one with the familiar icon), and a bunch of other VLC stuff, which I'm sure is super helpful for people who need whatever they are, but it leaves me baffled.
Then there's the terminal – Linux's "user-friendly" feature (/s). To fix something as simple as a controller, I'm thrust into a world of cryptic commands, that, unless I want to spend weeks learning, I have to take on faith aren't the linux equivalent of deleting system32... It's a steep climb compared to the familiar process of downloading and installing drivers on Windows.
So, while I recognise each OS has its strengths and weaknesses, for someone fresh to Linux, it can feel like you need a Computer Science degree for what's a walk in the park on Windows.And yes, that's due to familiarity. Maybe even Stokholme Syndrome...
That's a problem with any system. You can say that about moving to iOS, Android, Windows, Mac, Linux.
Yes it is, it's very different. I've shown you the difference.
No, the practical difference is huge, and I've shown you that! It's far less complicated, far less cumbersome, far more intuitive, and also considerably safer on Linux than it is on windows.
I like Windows, I do. I use it every day. I could list a dozen things I think Windows does very well. But the biggest issue I have with Windows is that managing software on it makes me want to pull my teeth out. It is hands down the worst operating system that is still in use in that regard.
That's not me being dramatic or exaggerating. It is the worst actively used operating system that exists for managing software, and it's not even close.
No amount of writing I can do can sum up how bad it is in that regard.
Again, I need to reiterate this. Microsoft has stated themselves that they think it's a bad system. No other OS has tried to do it this way, for good reason.
Please stop pretending they're on par, because they're not.
Verifiably safer.
Stop talking about the terminal. You don't need to use the terminal. If you talk about the terminal then it's only fair that I bring up command prompt, Windows terminal, and powershell. And guess what? They're even more complex than the Linux terminal, the fact that there are three and you're expected to know what to use each for is another layer of confusion.
I also never said the terminal was user friendly, I've repeatedly said you shouldn't use it. Please stop putting words in my mouth.
You don't need to use the terminal. You don't need to use command prompt. You don't need to use powershell. You don't need to use Microsoft terminal.
YOU DON'T NEED TO USE THE TERMINAL.
Do I need to say it any more? It's a completely disingenuous argument.
I'm not sure why Mint lists flatpaks as a different app to their own packaged version. Other software centres I've seen don't do that, you've seen what mine looks like. But the Mint team is literally just a handful of people who make a system that's still less complicated than one from a $2.75 trillion dollar company.