I liked her better when I didn't know she was Putin's lapdog.
What happened with her? She seemed okay when she was running a few elections ago and had some support, but then went a bit off and I stopped following her.
Apparently she received some funding that was traced back to Russia and is effectively acting as a spoiler candidate.
she received some funding that was traced back to Russia
that's not true.
Excellent rebuttal backed with facts.
I provided just as much evidence as the comment to which I was responding
You could have asked them for a source then instead of doing something as useless?
I didn't. I refuted it with just as strong a claim as they made. if you think you can get them to provide a source, go for it. I happen to know it's untrue, so I don't care to bicker with them about it.
I meanβ¦. She did go to a gala celebrating the 10th anniversary of Russia Today, which is state controlled propaganda.
so? operation mocking bird implies every us news company is a CIA asset.
No it doesnβt. Operation mockingbird implies that every government tries to influence the narrative of the free press, and literally always has. And the CIA was no exception.
If you see no difference between an attempt to influence the narrative of the free press by the state, and not having a free press at all, only a literal extension of the state serving propaganda as the narrative, I donβt know what to tell you.
this is splitting hairs, and makes no difference in whether it matters that rt is an official government channel. it doesn't because all media is propaganda.
It's a well-established fact that a part of her social media campaign was funded by the Russians.
To be clear: I'm not saying she necessarily did all this in cahoots with Putin. Russia funded divisive ads that boosted Sanders too.
Regardless, Sanders quit the race whilst Stein did not. That means she acted as a spoiler candidate, where a vote for her means it's more likely that a republican candidate wins instead, instead of the democrat candidate that a green voter is likely more aligned with. It's an unfortunate effect of the two-party system.
Nonetheless, those effects are well-known and Stein had a snowball's chance in hell of getting elected. She knew this, but decided to remain on the ballot anyway. Her candidacy therefore did help Trump win the election.
Did you even read the article? Facebook presented no proof of this and you just take it as fact.
part of her social media campaign was funded by the Russians.
no, it wasn't.
Sanders quit the race whilst Stein did not. That means she acted as a spoiler candidate, where a vote for her means itβs more likely that a republican candidate wins instead,
i can do this too!
Sanders quit the race whilst Clinton did not. That means she acted as a spoiler candidate, where a vote for her means itβs more likely that a republican candidate wins instead, instead of the green candidate that a democrat voter is likely more aligned with.
as if Democrats you vote for havenβt sat at a table with Putin before
Such as? Apart from, you know, people who were president and were doing it because presidents generally meet other world leaders?
You're pretending that meeting with Putin as part of her official duties is the same as associating with him socially.
Explain what the event was and how it proves Jill Stein is working for Putin. You can't.
IIRC the event was literally an RT conference promoting how RT signal boosted "real change" candidates, coincidentally at the same time as an American politician that Putin had personally nursed a grudge against was running while associated with the establishment line.
IE, "We're here today to celebrate our alliance of making sure anyone but Hillary is able to win!"
she's a presidential candidate. i don't think there is a meaningful difference in stature, but there is in substance: she never exchanged a word with him or shook his hand, unlike the fascists and fascist-enablers you're defending.
Wow. She somehow got herself a seat at Putin's table, then she sat down quietly, politely ate her sandwich, then got up and left without ever saying a word or interacting with the people at the table?
How unlucky she must have felt to find herself such an awkward situation. Egg on her face and all that.
if was her table. he sat there for a couple minutes.
I see. So Putin sat down at her table, uninvited, didn't introduce himself, she didn't comment on it, then he, Michael Flynn, and all the others finished their sandwiches and left Jill Stein in peace to eat her lunch alone.
I can see how that absolves her. But man, what a shitty thing to happen to someone when they just want to enjoy their soup and crackers in peace. With this one little social faux pas, Putin made millions of people across the country believe she was his stooge.
When she becomes president, what do you think she is going to do to retaliate against Putin for fucking her image so bad?
I imagine shed be focused on meaningful issues, not chasing down Rachel Maddie's Boogeyman.
What are her meaningful issues?
when I voted for her in 2016, it was for student loan forgiveness. and shutting down the keystone xl
Her job at this time was to lead the foreign relations of the US. This job entails meeting many years of state who the US has serious disagreement with. It is a part of the job. This is not at all the same as going to dinner for fun
No you don't get it, look how close they are, the closer they are the more corrupt
If you like the ideas of the Green Party, vote for them at the local level. The fact that they don't seem to want to govern at the local level is enough for me to ignore them as an option.
This needs to be said more than anything else.
Politics NEVER changes from the top down. You don't elect some absolute newcomer who circumvents all the normal paths and then completely revolutionizes the country. (At least not in a stable, functioning society.) Politics in the US happens from the ground up. Not top down.
If any third party was serious about changing society, they would start at the local level. Then, after proving that they can enact meaningful change and bridge the divide between the huge political span that Americans hold, they would sweep their state elections and federal elections.
All of these pie-in-the-sky parties who think that they will win the presidency and then somehow enact society-changing legislation (_the president doesn't make laws!!!_) are either fools or charlatans.
vote for them at the local level.
They only run in a handful of local races. I've lived in both a red state and a blue state- Indiana and California- in multiple districts and I have never once seen a green party candidate on the local level.
That is literally my point. Ignore them until they seem to want governance as opposed to only seeing them in national headlines tilting at windmills. It's worthless.
If you like Stein's platform, voting for Stein will decrease the likelihood of you ever seeing such a policy implemented. If, say, a state rep. runs on a Green platform, they would likely get my vote.
I know it was your point. I was supporting it.
Cool. I really hate the English use of "you" when "one" is really the word one wants. But when one uses "one" as opposed to "you", one sounds crazy.
I honestly think a lot of online defensiveness arises from this construction.
I'm saying, it sounds like I'm saying "you need to do blah cuz you're wrong about blah", when I would prefer it to be read as reiterating my earlier point of "if one wants to see Green policies enacted, one would do well to ignore Jill Stein."
I think you're probably right about that.
Someone should start a community for the use of one instead of you.
Gayle McLaughlin used to be the Green Party's best example of what they could do at the local level, until she left in 2016 to vote for Bernie Sanders. I'm fairly certain she is the outlier.
Right. I do believe that many members of the Green Party are good political options. It's just they as a party don't rally around them. They only seem to push for the presidency. I don't see how they can hope to accomplish anything when they seem to shoot for the moon every four years, and only manage to spoil things.
Until I start seeing good options on the ballots from the Greens, I will just continue to hope the progressives win the dem. primaries for my local seats.
They only seem to push for the presidency
This is the key indicator and red flag that they are a clown party that isn't serious about politics. They're in it for the attention and the money.
They can't run local level candidates without funding. All you do is complain instead of help.
I'm a voter, my friend. I can complain about a party all damn day. If you think that a political party is going get a dime from me before they can even convince me to vote for them, you have strange spending habits.
They do focus on local elections, you just don't hear about it because for the most part no one cares about local politics.
It's not that I don't care about local politics. You sending a link that's relevant to other people's local politics is completely irrelevant to me. Until the GP option is common on local ballots, not just 5 featured ones, I do not want hear about a presidential run.
By the way, I do commemorate you on your outreach and activism. You're getting shit on in this thread, and you're still politely getting your links out. Good work.
And they can run presidential candidates without funding??? What the heck are you talking about?
It's easier to raise awareness of the campaign, and yes they historically get much more attention and funding.
We need ranked choice voting.
We certainly do, but you wouldn't catch me voting for that Russian stooge after everything that went down in 2016.
Jill Stein is not a Russian stooge
Lol, you can stop simping for Jill. She's never going to hold office or love you
she's already held office.
You got me!
all I do is win win win
So vote for the candidate that supports ranked choice voting.
The federal government doesn't control elections. You handle that at the state (or county/parish/whatever) level. At least here in Oregon, people can bring measures to the ballot by petition rather than waiting for the legislature to do anything about it, and given two party monopoly, they aren't going to do anything about it for you.
Support and donate to a party that does support ranked choice voting and they'll be able to run state level candidates
I don't think it's going to matter what party supports RCV. Once it's the law of your area, candidates will be running in an RCV election whether they supported it or not.
How will RCV be implemented in states without ballot measures? Have to vote for a party that will implement it.
So the Dems then, their voting rights policy has moved towards at the very least making it much easier to switch to a PR system of any kind.
voting rights policy
The John Lewis Voting Rights Advancement Act has literally nothing to do with ranked choice voting, you are talking out of your ass.
There was more than one voting rights related bill ya nonce.
Go ahead and enlighten us
I mean, GREEN does stand for Getting Republicans Elected Every November.
Yes. Yes it does lol. The GOP routinely bankrolls the Green Party to try to prevent Dem wins in close races. Itβs basically the only purpose of existence for them today.
even if Republicans give money to greens, that doesn't make green an acronym
Oh you thought I meant that literallyβ¦
Yikes. lol.
Can't tell if this guy is a clown or a troll
i take people at their word because I want to be taken by my word.
Ok, Venmo me $1,000 and Iβll give you the deed to the Golden Gate Bridge. I actually own it. I give you my word.
And you have to take me at my word because you said you do.
have you read the computer fraud and abuse act? what's your venmo?
Remember when Jill Stein helped elect Donald Trump?
Dobbs remembers!
no. that didn't happen.
Electricity wasn't discovered either.
i don't follow.
Aren't we spouting baseless lies?
i wasn't
Ah so it was ignorance in your case?
no, it was the truth.
Did you miss the result of the 2016 presidential election?
no, i know very well that hillary clinton backed trump in the primary, used corrupt politics to rig the democrat primary against bernie, and then drew votes away from the greens. in fact, jill stein lost by less than the amount of votes hillary took.
jill stein lost by less than the amount of votes hillary took
Not this shit again. Our country literally might not survive another Donald Trump presidency, which is what you're helping happen by supporting a 3rd-party candidate when we have a 2-party system.
Keep Trump and his goons from taking power
Vote local. This is where things like ranked-choice voting and reproductive rights are created and have impact
When it's not "first past the post", vote for whoever you want, guilt-free! At this point, there's no such thing as a spoiler candidate...
It's called priorities.
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos!
I voted but Sanjaya, but that's only because the ballot was confusing.
vote for whoever you want, guilt-free
i do this now. the only decision i have left to make is whether it's going to be jill stein or cornel west.
We count those as Republican votes. Thank you for your service, patriot!
this is election misinformation.
It was a joke. But functionally, you're throwing your vote away. If you care so much about 3rd-party candidates, instead help us pass ranked-choice voting!
If you care so much about 3rd-party candidates
honestly, i don't. i vote because it takes like no effort, but i vote for people i actually want to win. i'm not terribly invested in whether they do, though: every politician i've ever voted for who won turned out to be a terrible disappointment.
every politician i've ever voted for who won turned out to be a terrible disappointment.
Weird. Based on your comments, you're clearly a rational, empathetic individual open to intelligent discussion, so the issue can't be you...
i know. the issue is unjust hierarchies.
help us pass ranked-choice voting!
no, thank you. i don't want that system any more than the current one.
Oh you know so much about third party politics, tell us why did Bernie run for president in the Democratic primary?
i don't see the point of this question. it's clearly rhetorical. if you have something to say, say it.
I think we'd all like to hear your expert take.
theres no expertise needed. we can ask him why he chose to run as a democrat.
"There's no secret that I think that the Democratic Party has not been vigorous enough in standing up for working families. I've said that repeatedly and I say it again," Sanders told Seven Days. "On the other hand, I will also tell you [there are] some great people in the Democratic Party that I work closely with. But right now, it seems to me the most effective and practical way to go forward is to participate in the Democratic primary process."
That's not why. That isn't about third party politics or running for the DNC nom as a third party pol. You can read what he said about it in his book called Our Revolution.
do you have a point?
Your understanding of this subject is a mile wide and an inch deep.
you don't need to know anything about so-called "third party" politics to know that if you count a vote for one person as another, that's illegal and it is not the policy to count green votes as republican votes.
This is a weird comment. It's not "so called," It's actually called third party politics. And Bernie is the longest serving third party politician I think ever, at least in modern history.
I don't believe there is any way Biden will be re-elected. If for no other reason when he finally dies of old age who would want kamala running the show.
This is as bad a take as people saying there's no way he can lose re-election. Pro or against, betting POTUS (who has the best healthcare in the world) will die in the next 4 years is the longest of bets. Also, no one votes based on who the successor might be. Lastly, he's healthier than Trump for fuck's sake...
Dude is like 80. Math doesn't lie and the best doctors in the world can't stop time. Statistically it's time to dig a hole. He won't be re-elected, but if he were there's no way he's got another 4 years left kicking dirt.
the best doctors in the world can't stop time
Ok but life expectancy literally directly correlates with the quality of your healthcare
Understood. He's already 8 years past the average life expectancy of a American man. The writing is on the wall.
He can, and possibly will, pick a new running mate.
this is decontextualized propaganda. if you click the link and watch the video, the explanation is benign.
Why don't you do everyone who can't watch a video at the moment a favor, and explain how it is decontexualized?
She happened to be at a table with a world leader at a large event. Guess who else has been at a table with Putin? Most recent US presidents and countless other politicians.
Yeah, actual world leaders. Who the fuck is Jill Stein besides a failed Presidential candidate. What an insane comparison.
and countless other politicians
No, we can count them. I specifically recall seven (eight?) Republican lawmakers, including Rand Paul who personally delivered a letter to Putin, visiting Moscow on July 4, 2018. Of all days.
the video is great. the text that is above the link to it is the decontextualized propaganda
Oh look another Russian agent
she's not a russian agent.
We need a Green Party in the US but this ainβt it.
We need ranked choice or approval voting before third parties actually have a chance.
How are you going to get that by voting for people who don't support it?
Ballot measures. Plenty of places have done it this way.
Half of the states in the US don't have ballot measures.
Dems literally tried to pass a law that would incentivize transitioning to it but ok.
Why let facts get in the way of a good "both sides same!"
Dems literally tried to pass a law that would incentivize transitioning to it
Source?
I used to hear people complain that Stein sat at a table with Putin and I assumed it was at a charity event or state dinner but it turns out she was a special guest for the 10th anniversary of the Russian state funded TV propaganda network RT in Moscow.
You don't sit with Putin, just because you purchase a ticket.
he only sat at the table a couple minutes, and didn't speak to anyone
if thereβs a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, you got a table with 11 Nazis.
good rule of thumb but if I'm sitting at a table in Hitler's Germany, am I supposed to start throwing knives in the middle of his propaganda gala?
βThey did offer to pay my way and I said, No thank you.β
Sounds like a VIP to me. She was also sitting at the table with the keynote speaker, Michael Flynn.
Until now, Stein hasnβt offered many details about how she came to be there or what happened beyond saying it was βa great opportunity to lay out some of my foreign policy proposals and get Russian reactions to them.β
So she wanted Putin's approval on her foreign policy?
Oh what luck! She bought a ticket and ended up next to those people. She must have been so surprised!
she was. did you watch the video link in these comments?
If that's true, is that supposed to make it better? She traveled half way around the world to celebrate the anniversary of a Putin propaganda network.
to celebrate.te a network that has given her more airtime than CNN, MSNBC, and Fox combined.
Again? How much did Putin offer her this time?
For a stand up gal like her? At least 1 dollar
Wow, her chance of winning is so high. And won't tip the results toward the right wing at all And pigs have wings
Something something Russian check is in the mail Jill.
Totally not running as a spoiler, nahhh. Not good ol Jill Spoiler Stein! She just wants you to Send A Messageβ’ (at an incredibly important time that has lasting repercussions if you actually follow through.)
Here's an idea, if you actually gave a shit Jill, why not lead the charge for ranked choice voting!!! Put your damn face all over the media when it's not an election year so you can actually push for positive change. At least then you'd stand a chance and people could actually vote for you! But no, that's not the intent. The intent is to syphon votes from Democrats again.
Her last campaign went heavy on ranked choice (as all green party candidates have been) but the green party has to run candidates to retain ballot access and therefore retain members. Campaigns are also a great way to promote issues ignored by major candidates (such as rcv) but the press has not been kind to third parties since ross perot so its not a surprise most people are unfamiliar with green party platforms.
in 2023 post covid her tepid vaccine skepticism seems like some major baggage (along with 2016s brutal coverage) and I wouldn't be surprised if she was more picking up jimmy dore style dumbass voters this time around and less acting as a spoiler. Her reputation is so toxic at this point that it does seem like the green party is throwing democrats a bone here.
i think she'd be just as happy to "syphon votes from" republicans. i think she wants all the votes she can get and doesn't much care who your second choice would be.
Show me a republican who would vote for the green party, and I'll show you a very confused and lonely magic crystal and energy healing enthusiast.
technically, at the moment, i am registered republican, but i vote green.
I feel the word "technically", here, is likely pulling so much weight that it invalidates your comment entirely.
i mean the whole idea of identifying with a party is pretty invalid IMHO.
democrats don't own the votes, the voters do. they need to earn them like everyone else.
Of course they don't own the votes, but you vote to get an outcome. If you're voting for someone third party who has literally 0 chance of winning, but actually agree with some of what the Democrats want and not much at all of what Republicans want then the only outcome you get is the party you agree with least winning because you wanted to send a message to the party you partially agreed with.
the only outcome you get is the party you agree with least winning because you wanted to send a message to the party you partially agreed with.
it's not about sending a message to democrats or republicans. it's about who i want to win. also, it's really hard to tell which party i agree with least.
That's what I thought the first time as well. It turns out that who you want to win means fuck all in real life. It's a bit like saying "I don't want my arm to be broken" when you fall on it. I'm sure you don't, but if you care about how it heals you'll go to the hospital and get a cast put on it, even if it's uncomfortable.
And to me, it's easy to figure out who I agree with least. One of them actively wants LGBT folks dead, and the other one doesn't actively want that. Everything else could be exactly the same and it would still be braindead easy to figure out.
I wouldn't count on the Democrats to keep genocidal maniacs from your doorstep. better to get a gun and join a local resistance movement.
I'd rather the people that don't presently want genocidal maniacs killing me and my friends be in office than the genocidal maniacs themselves, and you must recognize that it is, in fact, one of those two choices that are going to win.
Democrats fund genocide. you need to save yourself.
And republicans don't do that even more?
there aren't acceptable degrees
So given the choice between someone actively demanding genocide and someone who's passively supporting a genocide, you'd sooner see more people murdered than vote for the lesser evil?
if it means so much to you, I live in a swing state. the state penalty for selling my vote is $5k. that's the federal fine, too. put another 10k on top for my troubles and I'll vote any way you like.
they're not the same with one exception tho. they're both deeply bad In similar and unique ways. neither is acceptable.
In what way are Democrats bad, that Republicans aren't?
they want to restrict guns to government thugs. they lie about supporting unions, stabbing the working class in the back.
Better than republicans who were the first ones doing gun control because black people had guns, and who are openly hostile to unions and the working class, and treat them even worse.
I don't think getting stabbed in the back is better than getting stabbed in the front.
This is implying Jill Stein doesnβt know she is helping Republicans with her failed 3rd party run.
Girl is getting paid to help them for sure.
do you have some proof of that?
She had a successful career as a physician so no, you're making that up. Anyone who is saying she has money that's where it came from. You all have no evidence she's getting Russian money, it's pathetic.
Sorry... are you saying that doctors all feel they're rich enough and don't ever lust for more money?
Where's your evidence?
My evidence of what? I asked if that's what you were saying.
Evidence that Jill Stein is taking money from Putin, it's a ridiculous claim with no evidence.
Please quote me making that claim.
Your white knight ass galloped in to defend that point
When did I defend anything? Please quote my defense. Unless you're lying of course. Are you lying?
Pulling the environmentalist voters away from Biden doesn't help his opponents?
the greens are his opponent too. a vote for a green candidate doesn't help the republicans or the democrats.
And who do you think might consider voting for a Green candidate? Certainly not republicans. There is significant overlap between the democracy crowd and the environmentalism crowd. Thus, a significant chunk of green voters would otherwise be democratic voters.
then i guess the democrats better shift to capture some of them green voters if they want them.
That attitude is precisely why we were stuck with Trump from 2017-2020, and why the country is much worse off now because of it.
I voted for Gary Johnson is 2016 and let me tell you, I learned from my mistake. It seems you have yet to learn that lesson.
? you think the democrats should be able to enter office just because you don't like donald trump? fuck that. if they want my vote they better come and get it. i have an enumrable list.
The fact that you keep changing the subject demonstrates that you are not interested in arguing in good faith. The correct course of action is to vote in such a way that your vote influences the outcome positively. By voting for a 3rd party candidate, you are choosing to not influence the result, which is irresponsible.
I haven't changed the subject at all.
You changed the subject from preventing fascism to nitpicking democrats. That's called whataboutism. You imply that you have no legitimate counter-argument by taking attention away from the point that shatters your argument. A person in the right would have no need for such evasive tactics.
As someone else mentioned, Jill is a great Green party candidate for Democrats because she sucks. She's not that young, has Russian baggage, and isn't the new face that could make the party more popular. The philosopher dude, West, seemed a bit more dangerous, but Stein being their nominee drills in the fact that there are no viable 3rd parties. The real strategy has been that of the DSA, where they promote their own candidates within the two party system. It's both realistic, and far more effective than throwing your vote away.
The only people who will vote for a known spoiler like Jill Stein are to far gone to have really been potential Biden voters.
Why is a diplomat sitting next to someone a Russian connection? It's literally their job to try and get along.
Stein is a doctor not a diplomat, you bag of hair.
Must suck to get your paychecks in rubles
Fuck off. Useless piece of shit.
Isn't this how you communicate?
It doesn't matter what they are. It's a picture. Get more than two people standing next to each other or you are too stupid to listen to. Convincing people takes intelligence. Not name calling.
You're right about that person's demeanor. But you are wrong about this picture. It's not that easy to be seated at a table with putin.
I'm not saying it's easy or hard. I'm saying that it takes more than a picture to prove conjecture.
It was also a gala for the 10th anniversary of RT, and Micheal Flynn was at the table. Getting there yet?
No. It's just a picture.
It's a picture that you choose to ignore the context of.
I'm not ignoring it. I'm just not saying it's substantial. It's not a connection as solid as a bank statement. Or something that is actual proof of working together more than sharing a table
Earnestness is wasted on someone pushing a bad faith a narrative as you are. You're just here to be an edgy contrarian for whatever junk motivations you might have. Disrespect is a 2 way street
I stand by my assertion that you're not only a bag of hair but also a saucer of wet mice
The funny thing about baggage in politics is that it needn't be based on truth or an actually immoral act. Plenty of politicians lose votes and races because they did something that prudes consider scandalous, but younger people don't care about. A ton of the reasons for people disliking politicians are either based on lies, or something that's unimportant.
I hear so many lies or half truths about politicians I don't like either, but still vote for because they're the best option. It's like people purity test by telling a lie when they don't need to in order to make their point. They then accuse the person who points out their lies of holding a position they do not hold. I don't like lying, even about people I hate. I want to dislike people for good reasons, and wish others did as well.
this link undermine the claim she is a Russian asset
jill stein isn't a russian puppet
Yes she is.
you have no proof for this.
You know what would be amazing, if a third party candidate would run and then demand policy position concessions form the Democratic nominee in exchange for dropping out, rather than running through the election and risking a Republican presidency.
The green party is routinely funded by the GOP. Their existence is to be a spoiler and pull votes from Dems to swing races towards republicans.
Theyβre already doing what theyβre being paid to do.
That's kinda what the WFP does?
They have a sort of tacit agreement with the Dems where they'll run their candidates in the Dem Primary pool and then both will endorse the winner, and then they'll only compete directly when there's no chance it'll throw a race to the Republicans.
I think that's the only rational way to interpret her run. Even she doesn't want to run through.
Edit: I checked her record on previous runs, and omg I was so wrong...
Yyyyyep, she's a regular Nader type, unfortunately.
How on the hell do Green party members stand behind her? Her leadership undermines all the good intentions of the party policies.
oh fuck off, jill
Why vote for Stein when you can directly vote for Trump? /s
a vote for stein is a vote against the other candidates in the race.
So you're effectively going to vote for nobody and let everyone else decide the race?
i haven't decided who i'm going to vote for, but rgiht now i like jill stein and cornel west.
I felt this way when I was 18 also. I voted green and Bush II won. I live in California, so the electoral college essentially means I still voted for Gore. It really doesn't matter unless you live in a swing state.
I'm confused as to why you're a third party voter who is against ranked choice though, it's really the only chance we have at being able to meaningfully vote with our conscience.
Bush II won
he was installed by his daddy's friends. we could have all voted for jill stein in 2000 and it wouldn't have mattered.
Iβm confused as to why youβre a third party voter who is against ranked choice though
in the system we have where we vote for people to take positions of power, i will vote for the person who i want to win that. if i have a chance to change this system, we will be eliminating positions of power. i don't care to change how our masters are chosen: man need not be ruled.
Then why vote at all? Why would you want Jill Stein holding power over you? Dismissing the only chance you have to actually vote for a person you want to win seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face. But it's becoming more and more apparent that you live to troll, so I guess that follows.
Don't bother this dude literally spends all day spamming political threads with garbage on Lemmy.
His username is literally commie. Don't have to look much further
Then why vote at all? Why would you want Jill Stein holding power over you?
it takes literally no effort and i like to do it. in an ideal world, i don't want jill stein or anyone else to hold power. so long as this system exists, i'm not sure i want anyone else, but i'm honestly torn between her and cornel west right now.
But itβs becoming more and more apparent that you live to troll, so I guess that follows.
this is just a personal attack
It's not wrong though
this is just more name-calling.
Dismissing the only chance you have to actually vote for a person you want to win seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
if i have the opportunity to advocate for a differenty system of choosing masters or advocating for a system with no masters, every minute i spend advocating for the different system with masters is a minute i'm not working toward the system i actually want.
But you're against rank choice voting (wasn't sure, but the person above said you were)?
I'm against spending my time advocating for it because I don't think it's a solution to the problems. I'm no more opposed to it than the current system.
But it would let you get the person you actually want to win to have a chance while also preventing the worst party in your eyes from winning.
I would absolutely pick West first and Biden second, third, or whatever depending on the candidates if we had that system, but in the current system I'm not voting for anyone other than the 2 parties that actually have a chance of winning because the only way you'd get that 3rd party to win is if somehow you convinced the entire country to ditch the idea of voting Democrat all at the same time, and even then the 3rd party would be the new Democrats that absofuckinglutley will have corpo scum "invade" and corrupt. They will go where the power is, they have no party.
Ranked choice allows us to see the scum and choose a better candidate, hoping others see the same.
I would not pick biden at all.
Thats perfectly fine, it's your vote! If we ever get a vote for ranked choice just don't sit that one out! That will allow you to vote your conscience and still have a chance :)
you see how I would not like ranked choice, right? I would be compelled to vote for people who I think should not have the position.
Maybe if you don't understand how the US electoral system works...
Is she still willing to acknowledge worries from people about phones and microwaves? Or is she supporting science this year?
She still waiting on putin's directives
She is not the reason why Clinton lost and this amount of hate is not proportional. No, I didn't vote for Jill and I have no intention to.
Clinton lost because she is a corporate ghoul with no soul and no real views. She just believes whatever gets her the most attention and success.
Yeah how dare an elected official change their views to align with her desired constituents.
Real politicians tell their voters to shove it and cry about it!
Bernie Sanders has had similar worldviews since he was in politics. People with principles don't flip flop like she does.
That why Bernie is a MIC hawk for all the projects that get built in Vermont?
clinton because she was a bad candidate.
Don't let them lie. It is a 2 party system here bucko.
Oh Jill
Well, for anyone that cares, she's been a promoter of ranked choice voting.
Cool she was also out here being a fucking vaccine skeptic while people died
i like her, but this is a legitimate criticism and not a whacked out conspiracy theory. i don't care to debate it, either. it's actually a very valid reason to dislike her and prefer that she not hold public office. it's not disqualifying for me, personally, but i can respect people who take this position on it. at least you aren't screaming about meaningless bullshit.
More a self-promoter than anything.
The hell do you think political campaigns are?
That probably sounded smart in your head, but itβs a different level when a judge rules against your ridiculous election challenge lawsuit while calling it "daft," "ill-considered," and "pointless.β
"Dr. Stein publicly announced that she seeks to promote election integrity," the judge continued. But really, he argued, "she seeks to promote only herself," adding that there was one other benefit from her litigation "that would not otherwise have been conferred: the payment of $150,000 to Stein's lawyers."
I canβt be bothered to summarize the rest for you. Read it yourself.
she was challenging the election of trump in that lawsuit. and yet, she is accused of helping him win.
I understand Jill Stein's connections to Russia are because of RT (Russia Today), who was publishing lots of US progressive content back in 2016, at a time when no US media would touch any of it. Yea, it sucks that we had to have Russia of all places publish progressive content, such as Pro Bernie Sanders, StandingRock protests, and Green Party positions to get any visability AT ALL. So Stein was at a table with other people who were getting their issues published by RT, and Putin joined in. Now I wouldn't get anywhere near any RT content.
I mean that connection is hardly incidental, she attended conferences with Putin and Putin had it out for Clinton personally after she made comments calling his reelection's legitimacy into question because of how rigged it was.
Ah I remember this. In 2016 I didn't know what RT was but I really liked their coverage, mostly because NPR and any mainstream American media wouldn't cover Bernie in a positive manner. Got a bit of whiplash in 2017 from that.
Aw fuck, not again!
These comments are hilarious. All y'all arguing about third parties being spoilers. I can't believe anyone bothers to vote. If we could change anything by voting they wouldn't let us do it.
I liked her better when I didn't know she was Putin's lapdog.
What happened with her? She seemed okay when she was running a few elections ago and had some support, but then went a bit off and I stopped following her.
Apparently she received some funding that was traced back to Russia and is effectively acting as a spoiler candidate.
that's not true.
Excellent rebuttal backed with facts.
I provided just as much evidence as the comment to which I was responding
You could have asked them for a source then instead of doing something as useless?
I didn't. I refuted it with just as strong a claim as they made. if you think you can get them to provide a source, go for it. I happen to know it's untrue, so I don't care to bicker with them about it.
I meanβ¦. She did go to a gala celebrating the 10th anniversary of Russia Today, which is state controlled propaganda.
so? operation mocking bird implies every us news company is a CIA asset.
No it doesnβt. Operation mockingbird implies that every government tries to influence the narrative of the free press, and literally always has. And the CIA was no exception.
If you see no difference between an attempt to influence the narrative of the free press by the state, and not having a free press at all, only a literal extension of the state serving propaganda as the narrative, I donβt know what to tell you.
this is splitting hairs, and makes no difference in whether it matters that rt is an official government channel. it doesn't because all media is propaganda.
Source: your ass
All you liberals have is a picture of her at a table with Putin as if Democrats you vote for haven't sat at a table with Putin before
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/26/facebook-russia-trump-sanders-stein-243172
It's a well-established fact that a part of her social media campaign was funded by the Russians.
To be clear: I'm not saying she necessarily did all this in cahoots with Putin. Russia funded divisive ads that boosted Sanders too. Regardless, Sanders quit the race whilst Stein did not. That means she acted as a spoiler candidate, where a vote for her means it's more likely that a republican candidate wins instead, instead of the democrat candidate that a green voter is likely more aligned with. It's an unfortunate effect of the two-party system. Nonetheless, those effects are well-known and Stein had a snowball's chance in hell of getting elected. She knew this, but decided to remain on the ballot anyway. Her candidacy therefore did help Trump win the election.
Did you even read the article? Facebook presented no proof of this and you just take it as fact.
no, it wasn't.
i can do this too!
Sanders quit the race whilst Clinton did not. That means she acted as a spoiler candidate, where a vote for her means itβs more likely that a republican candidate wins instead, instead of the green candidate that a democrat voter is likely more aligned with.
Such as? Apart from, you know, people who were president and were doing it because presidents generally meet other world leaders?
https://images.app.goo.gl/mnWN3T5Rhi7Rs8Dr5
Bro holy shit she's secretly working for Putin wow
So the U.S. Secretary of State met with a world leader?
You do know Anthony Blinken does that all the time, right?
That's not a very good example.
No you don't get it she's sitting near Putin so she's working for him
What are you talking about? I never said anything about working for Putin.
I did. I have proof Hilary is working for Putin, the evidence is obvious, look how close they're sitting
Ok? Why are you telling me?
You're pretending that meeting with Putin as part of her official duties is the same as associating with him socially.
Explain what the event was and how it proves Jill Stein is working for Putin. You can't.
IIRC the event was literally an RT conference promoting how RT signal boosted "real change" candidates, coincidentally at the same time as an American politician that Putin had personally nursed a grudge against was running while associated with the establishment line.
IE, "We're here today to celebrate our alliance of making sure anyone but Hillary is able to win!"
You're so full of shit.
Fuck you on about it's literally an RT event
Read your sources
I did, it said nothing about the nonsense you were spouting
she's a presidential candidate. i don't think there is a meaningful difference in stature, but there is in substance: she never exchanged a word with him or shook his hand, unlike the fascists and fascist-enablers you're defending.
Wow. She somehow got herself a seat at Putin's table, then she sat down quietly, politely ate her sandwich, then got up and left without ever saying a word or interacting with the people at the table?
How unlucky she must have felt to find herself such an awkward situation. Egg on her face and all that.
if was her table. he sat there for a couple minutes.
I see. So Putin sat down at her table, uninvited, didn't introduce himself, she didn't comment on it, then he, Michael Flynn, and all the others finished their sandwiches and left Jill Stein in peace to eat her lunch alone.
I can see how that absolves her. But man, what a shitty thing to happen to someone when they just want to enjoy their soup and crackers in peace. With this one little social faux pas, Putin made millions of people across the country believe she was his stooge.
When she becomes president, what do you think she is going to do to retaliate against Putin for fucking her image so bad?
I imagine shed be focused on meaningful issues, not chasing down Rachel Maddie's Boogeyman.
What are her meaningful issues?
when I voted for her in 2016, it was for student loan forgiveness. and shutting down the keystone xl
For example?
https://images.app.goo.gl/mnWN3T5Rhi7Rs8Dr5
OMG she's a Putin puppet you see that??
Her job at this time was to lead the foreign relations of the US. This job entails meeting many years of state who the US has serious disagreement with. It is a part of the job. This is not at all the same as going to dinner for fun
No you don't get it, look how close they are, the closer they are the more corrupt
she's not, so you can like her again.
If you like the ideas of the Green Party, vote for them at the local level. The fact that they don't seem to want to govern at the local level is enough for me to ignore them as an option.
This needs to be said more than anything else.
Politics NEVER changes from the top down. You don't elect some absolute newcomer who circumvents all the normal paths and then completely revolutionizes the country. (At least not in a stable, functioning society.) Politics in the US happens from the ground up. Not top down.
If any third party was serious about changing society, they would start at the local level. Then, after proving that they can enact meaningful change and bridge the divide between the huge political span that Americans hold, they would sweep their state elections and federal elections.
All of these pie-in-the-sky parties who think that they will win the presidency and then somehow enact society-changing legislation (_the president doesn't make laws!!!_) are either fools or charlatans.
They only run in a handful of local races. I've lived in both a red state and a blue state- Indiana and California- in multiple districts and I have never once seen a green party candidate on the local level.
That is literally my point. Ignore them until they seem to want governance as opposed to only seeing them in national headlines tilting at windmills. It's worthless.
If you like Stein's platform, voting for Stein will decrease the likelihood of you ever seeing such a policy implemented. If, say, a state rep. runs on a Green platform, they would likely get my vote.
I know it was your point. I was supporting it.
Cool. I really hate the English use of "you" when "one" is really the word one wants. But when one uses "one" as opposed to "you", one sounds crazy.
I honestly think a lot of online defensiveness arises from this construction.
I'm saying, it sounds like I'm saying "you need to do blah cuz you're wrong about blah", when I would prefer it to be read as reiterating my earlier point of "if one wants to see Green policies enacted, one would do well to ignore Jill Stein."
I think you're probably right about that.
Someone should start a community for the use of one instead of you.
Gayle McLaughlin used to be the Green Party's best example of what they could do at the local level, until she left in 2016 to vote for Bernie Sanders. I'm fairly certain she is the outlier.
Right. I do believe that many members of the Green Party are good political options. It's just they as a party don't rally around them. They only seem to push for the presidency. I don't see how they can hope to accomplish anything when they seem to shoot for the moon every four years, and only manage to spoil things.
Until I start seeing good options on the ballots from the Greens, I will just continue to hope the progressives win the dem. primaries for my local seats.
This is the key indicator and red flag that they are a clown party that isn't serious about politics. They're in it for the attention and the money.
They can't run local level candidates without funding. All you do is complain instead of help.
I'm a voter, my friend. I can complain about a party all damn day. If you think that a political party is going get a dime from me before they can even convince me to vote for them, you have strange spending habits.
https://www.gp.org/featured_officeholders
They do focus on local elections, you just don't hear about it because for the most part no one cares about local politics.
It's not that I don't care about local politics. You sending a link that's relevant to other people's local politics is completely irrelevant to me. Until the GP option is common on local ballots, not just 5 featured ones, I do not want hear about a presidential run.
By the way, I do commemorate you on your outreach and activism. You're getting shit on in this thread, and you're still politely getting your links out. Good work.
And they can run presidential candidates without funding??? What the heck are you talking about?
It's easier to raise awareness of the campaign, and yes they historically get much more attention and funding.
We need ranked choice voting.
We certainly do, but you wouldn't catch me voting for that Russian stooge after everything that went down in 2016.
Jill Stein is not a Russian stooge
Lol, you can stop simping for Jill. She's never going to hold office or love you
she's already held office.
You got me!
all I do is win win win
So vote for the candidate that supports ranked choice voting.
The federal government doesn't control elections. You handle that at the state (or county/parish/whatever) level. At least here in Oregon, people can bring measures to the ballot by petition rather than waiting for the legislature to do anything about it, and given two party monopoly, they aren't going to do anything about it for you.
Support and donate to a party that does support ranked choice voting and they'll be able to run state level candidates
I don't think it's going to matter what party supports RCV. Once it's the law of your area, candidates will be running in an RCV election whether they supported it or not.
How will RCV be implemented in states without ballot measures? Have to vote for a party that will implement it.
So the Dems then, their voting rights policy has moved towards at the very least making it much easier to switch to a PR system of any kind.
The John Lewis Voting Rights Advancement Act has literally nothing to do with ranked choice voting, you are talking out of your ass.
There was more than one voting rights related bill ya nonce.
Go ahead and enlighten us
I mean, GREEN does stand for Getting Republicans Elected Every November.
no it doesn't
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/22/us/politics/green-party-republicans-hawkins.html
https://apnews.com/general-news-65e9d5d001dfd10c86ca9ab37e53e159
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2020/09/14/green-party-lawyers-have-ties-gop-counties-association/5791100002/
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2010/06/24/gop-linked-firm-paid-532000-for-greens-petition-drive-files-say/?outputType=amp
https://www.ktvh.com/news/montana-news/pac-promoting-green-party-candidate-has-gop-ties
https://www.inquirer.com/news/pennsylvania-election-green-party-billy-lanzilotti-philly-republicans-20220826.html?outputType=amp
Yes. Yes it does lol. The GOP routinely bankrolls the Green Party to try to prevent Dem wins in close races. Itβs basically the only purpose of existence for them today.
even if Republicans give money to greens, that doesn't make green an acronym
Oh you thought I meant that literallyβ¦
Yikes. lol.
Can't tell if this guy is a clown or a troll
i take people at their word because I want to be taken by my word.
Ok, Venmo me $1,000 and Iβll give you the deed to the Golden Gate Bridge. I actually own it. I give you my word.
And you have to take me at my word because you said you do.
have you read the computer fraud and abuse act? what's your venmo?
Remember when Jill Stein helped elect Donald Trump?
Dobbs remembers!
no. that didn't happen.
Electricity wasn't discovered either.
i don't follow.
Aren't we spouting baseless lies?
i wasn't
Ah so it was ignorance in your case?
no, it was the truth.
Did you miss the result of the 2016 presidential election?
no, i know very well that hillary clinton backed trump in the primary, used corrupt politics to rig the democrat primary against bernie, and then drew votes away from the greens. in fact, jill stein lost by less than the amount of votes hillary took.
You do math gud
you should run those numbers.
Fuck off Jill
Not this shit again. Our country literally might not survive another Donald Trump presidency, which is what you're helping happen by supporting a 3rd-party candidate when we have a 2-party system.
It's called priorities.
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos!
I voted but Sanjaya, but that's only because the ballot was confusing.
i do this now. the only decision i have left to make is whether it's going to be jill stein or cornel west.
We count those as Republican votes. Thank you for your service, patriot!
this is election misinformation.
It was a joke. But functionally, you're throwing your vote away. If you care so much about 3rd-party candidates, instead help us pass ranked-choice voting!
honestly, i don't. i vote because it takes like no effort, but i vote for people i actually want to win. i'm not terribly invested in whether they do, though: every politician i've ever voted for who won turned out to be a terrible disappointment.
Weird. Based on your comments, you're clearly a rational, empathetic individual open to intelligent discussion, so the issue can't be you...
i know. the issue is unjust hierarchies.
no, thank you. i don't want that system any more than the current one.
Oh you know so much about third party politics, tell us why did Bernie run for president in the Democratic primary?
i don't see the point of this question. it's clearly rhetorical. if you have something to say, say it.
I think we'd all like to hear your expert take.
theres no expertise needed. we can ask him why he chose to run as a democrat.
"There's no secret that I think that the Democratic Party has not been vigorous enough in standing up for working families. I've said that repeatedly and I say it again," Sanders told Seven Days. "On the other hand, I will also tell you [there are] some great people in the Democratic Party that I work closely with. But right now, it seems to me the most effective and practical way to go forward is to participate in the Democratic primary process."
That's not why. That isn't about third party politics or running for the DNC nom as a third party pol. You can read what he said about it in his book called Our Revolution.
do you have a point?
Your understanding of this subject is a mile wide and an inch deep.
yea, well, that's just, like, you're opinion, man
you don't need to know anything about so-called "third party" politics to know that if you count a vote for one person as another, that's illegal and it is not the policy to count green votes as republican votes.
This is a weird comment. It's not "so called," It's actually called third party politics. And Bernie is the longest serving third party politician I think ever, at least in modern history.
I don't believe there is any way Biden will be re-elected. If for no other reason when he finally dies of old age who would want kamala running the show.
This is as bad a take as people saying there's no way he can lose re-election. Pro or against, betting POTUS (who has the best healthcare in the world) will die in the next 4 years is the longest of bets. Also, no one votes based on who the successor might be. Lastly, he's healthier than Trump for fuck's sake...
Dude is like 80. Math doesn't lie and the best doctors in the world can't stop time. Statistically it's time to dig a hole. He won't be re-elected, but if he were there's no way he's got another 4 years left kicking dirt.
Ok but life expectancy literally directly correlates with the quality of your healthcare
Understood. He's already 8 years past the average life expectancy of a American man. The writing is on the wall.
He can, and possibly will, pick a new running mate.
Never forget that Jill Stein was at the same event and at the same table as Putin and that traitor Flynn
https://www.pbssocal.org/shows/democracy-now/clip/why-jill-stein-attended-moscow-dinner-with-putin-and-flynn
this is decontextualized propaganda. if you click the link and watch the video, the explanation is benign.
Why don't you do everyone who can't watch a video at the moment a favor, and explain how it is decontexualized?
She happened to be at a table with a world leader at a large event. Guess who else has been at a table with Putin? Most recent US presidents and countless other politicians.
Yeah, actual world leaders. Who the fuck is Jill Stein besides a failed Presidential candidate. What an insane comparison.
No, we can count them. I specifically recall seven (eight?) Republican lawmakers, including Rand Paul who personally delivered a letter to Putin, visiting Moscow on July 4, 2018. Of all days.
https://www.npr.org/2018/07/06/626664156/gop-senators-spend-july-4-in-moscow
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/eight-republicans-spent-july-4-in-russia-where-are-the-fireworks/2018/07/06/beae30be-812e-11e8-b658-4f4d2a1aeef1_story.html
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/08/08/rand-paul-delivers-letter-to-trump-from-putin-766743
https://www.npr.org/2018/08/09/636982295/is-it-springtime-for-putin-and-republicans
the video is great. the text that is above the link to it is the decontextualized propaganda
Oh look another Russian agent
she's not a russian agent.
We need a Green Party in the US but this ainβt it.
We need ranked choice or approval voting before third parties actually have a chance.
How are you going to get that by voting for people who don't support it?
Ballot measures. Plenty of places have done it this way.
Half of the states in the US don't have ballot measures.
Dems literally tried to pass a law that would incentivize transitioning to it but ok.
Why let facts get in the way of a good "both sides same!"
Source?
I used to hear people complain that Stein sat at a table with Putin and I assumed it was at a charity event or state dinner but it turns out she was a special guest for the 10th anniversary of the Russian state funded TV propaganda network RT in Moscow.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/guess-who-came-dinner-flynn-putin-n742696
no, she wasn't. she bought a ticket.
You don't sit with Putin, just because you purchase a ticket.
he only sat at the table a couple minutes, and didn't speak to anyone
good rule of thumb but if I'm sitting at a table in Hitler's Germany, am I supposed to start throwing knives in the middle of his propaganda gala?
Sounds like a VIP to me. She was also sitting at the table with the keynote speaker, Michael Flynn.
So she wanted Putin's approval on her foreign policy?
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/06/jill-stein-says-nothing-happened-at-her-dinner-with-putin/
Oh what luck! She bought a ticket and ended up next to those people. She must have been so surprised!
she was. did you watch the video link in these comments?
If that's true, is that supposed to make it better? She traveled half way around the world to celebrate the anniversary of a Putin propaganda network.
to celebrate.te a network that has given her more airtime than CNN, MSNBC, and Fox combined.
Again? How much did Putin offer her this time?
For a stand up gal like her? At least 1 dollar
Wow, her chance of winning is so high. And won't tip the results toward the right wing at all And pigs have wings
Something something Russian check is in the mail Jill.
Totally not running as a spoiler, nahhh. Not good ol Jill Spoiler Stein! She just wants you to Send A Messageβ’ (at an incredibly important time that has lasting repercussions if you actually follow through.)
Here's an idea, if you actually gave a shit Jill, why not lead the charge for ranked choice voting!!! Put your damn face all over the media when it's not an election year so you can actually push for positive change. At least then you'd stand a chance and people could actually vote for you! But no, that's not the intent. The intent is to syphon votes from Democrats again.
Her last campaign went heavy on ranked choice (as all green party candidates have been) but the green party has to run candidates to retain ballot access and therefore retain members. Campaigns are also a great way to promote issues ignored by major candidates (such as rcv) but the press has not been kind to third parties since ross perot so its not a surprise most people are unfamiliar with green party platforms.
in 2023 post covid her tepid vaccine skepticism seems like some major baggage (along with 2016s brutal coverage) and I wouldn't be surprised if she was more picking up jimmy dore style dumbass voters this time around and less acting as a spoiler. Her reputation is so toxic at this point that it does seem like the green party is throwing democrats a bone here.
i think she'd be just as happy to "syphon votes from" republicans. i think she wants all the votes she can get and doesn't much care who your second choice would be.
Show me a republican who would vote for the green party, and I'll show you a very confused and lonely magic crystal and energy healing enthusiast.
technically, at the moment, i am registered republican, but i vote green.
I feel the word "technically", here, is likely pulling so much weight that it invalidates your comment entirely.
i mean the whole idea of identifying with a party is pretty invalid IMHO.
democrats don't own the votes, the voters do. they need to earn them like everyone else.
Of course they don't own the votes, but you vote to get an outcome. If you're voting for someone third party who has literally 0 chance of winning, but actually agree with some of what the Democrats want and not much at all of what Republicans want then the only outcome you get is the party you agree with least winning because you wanted to send a message to the party you partially agreed with.
it's not about sending a message to democrats or republicans. it's about who i want to win. also, it's really hard to tell which party i agree with least.
That's what I thought the first time as well. It turns out that who you want to win means fuck all in real life. It's a bit like saying "I don't want my arm to be broken" when you fall on it. I'm sure you don't, but if you care about how it heals you'll go to the hospital and get a cast put on it, even if it's uncomfortable.
And to me, it's easy to figure out who I agree with least. One of them actively wants LGBT folks dead, and the other one doesn't actively want that. Everything else could be exactly the same and it would still be braindead easy to figure out.
I wouldn't count on the Democrats to keep genocidal maniacs from your doorstep. better to get a gun and join a local resistance movement.
I'd rather the people that don't presently want genocidal maniacs killing me and my friends be in office than the genocidal maniacs themselves, and you must recognize that it is, in fact, one of those two choices that are going to win.
Democrats fund genocide. you need to save yourself.
And republicans don't do that even more?
there aren't acceptable degrees
So given the choice between someone actively demanding genocide and someone who's passively supporting a genocide, you'd sooner see more people murdered than vote for the lesser evil?
if it means so much to you, I live in a swing state. the state penalty for selling my vote is $5k. that's the federal fine, too. put another 10k on top for my troubles and I'll vote any way you like.
they're not the same with one exception tho. they're both deeply bad In similar and unique ways. neither is acceptable.
In what way are Democrats bad, that Republicans aren't?
they want to restrict guns to government thugs. they lie about supporting unions, stabbing the working class in the back.
Better than republicans who were the first ones doing gun control because black people had guns, and who are openly hostile to unions and the working class, and treat them even worse.
I don't think getting stabbed in the back is better than getting stabbed in the front.
Good news is there's like 300 of you in the country so it doesn't matter
if it didn't matter why is my inbox full?
Are you serious right now?
I said what I said
Well I guess so long as the election takes place in your inbox, you're all set.
Green Party will always run a candidate. Just be thankful their candidate is the charmless husk of a moron that is Jill Stein.
Useful idiot.
This is implying Jill Stein doesnβt know she is helping Republicans with her failed 3rd party run.
Girl is getting paid to help them for sure.
do you have some proof of that?
She had a successful career as a physician so no, you're making that up. Anyone who is saying she has money that's where it came from. You all have no evidence she's getting Russian money, it's pathetic.
Sorry... are you saying that doctors all feel they're rich enough and don't ever lust for more money?
Where's your evidence?
My evidence of what? I asked if that's what you were saying.
Evidence that Jill Stein is taking money from Putin, it's a ridiculous claim with no evidence.
Please quote me making that claim.
Your white knight ass galloped in to defend that point
When did I defend anything? Please quote my defense. Unless you're lying of course. Are you lying?
LMAO you can't even troll effectively
You think "rich people don't do immoral things for money, because they're already rich" don't you?
No, they just have literally no evidence.
she's not helping republicans.
Pulling the environmentalist voters away from Biden doesn't help his opponents?
the greens are his opponent too. a vote for a green candidate doesn't help the republicans or the democrats.
And who do you think might consider voting for a Green candidate? Certainly not republicans. There is significant overlap between the democracy crowd and the environmentalism crowd. Thus, a significant chunk of green voters would otherwise be democratic voters.
then i guess the democrats better shift to capture some of them green voters if they want them.
That attitude is precisely why we were stuck with Trump from 2017-2020, and why the country is much worse off now because of it.
I voted for Gary Johnson is 2016 and let me tell you, I learned from my mistake. It seems you have yet to learn that lesson.
? you think the democrats should be able to enter office just because you don't like donald trump? fuck that. if they want my vote they better come and get it. i have an enumrable list.
The fact that you keep changing the subject demonstrates that you are not interested in arguing in good faith. The correct course of action is to vote in such a way that your vote influences the outcome positively. By voting for a 3rd party candidate, you are choosing to not influence the result, which is irresponsible.
I haven't changed the subject at all.
You changed the subject from preventing fascism to nitpicking democrats. That's called whataboutism. You imply that you have no legitimate counter-argument by taking attention away from the point that shatters your argument. A person in the right would have no need for such evasive tactics.
you can characterize my vote any way you like. I'll characterize yours as supporting genocide.
Don't pretend you care about genocide when you've clearly announced your plan to enable a known terrorist.
your accusation of bad faith is itself bad faith.
"No u" you're not digging yourself out of that hole
As someone else mentioned, Jill is a great Green party candidate for Democrats because she sucks. She's not that young, has Russian baggage, and isn't the new face that could make the party more popular. The philosopher dude, West, seemed a bit more dangerous, but Stein being their nominee drills in the fact that there are no viable 3rd parties. The real strategy has been that of the DSA, where they promote their own candidates within the two party system. It's both realistic, and far more effective than throwing your vote away.
The only people who will vote for a known spoiler like Jill Stein are to far gone to have really been potential Biden voters.
she has no Russian baggage.
Really?
Why is a diplomat sitting next to someone a Russian connection? It's literally their job to try and get along.
Stein is a doctor not a diplomat, you bag of hair.
Must suck to get your paychecks in rubles
Fuck off. Useless piece of shit.
Isn't this how you communicate?
It doesn't matter what they are. It's a picture. Get more than two people standing next to each other or you are too stupid to listen to. Convincing people takes intelligence. Not name calling.
You're right about that person's demeanor. But you are wrong about this picture. It's not that easy to be seated at a table with putin.
I'm not saying it's easy or hard. I'm saying that it takes more than a picture to prove conjecture.
It was also a gala for the 10th anniversary of RT, and Micheal Flynn was at the table. Getting there yet?
No. It's just a picture.
It's a picture that you choose to ignore the context of.
I'm not ignoring it. I'm just not saying it's substantial. It's not a connection as solid as a bank statement. Or something that is actual proof of working together more than sharing a table
Okay, a sealioning bag of hair that isn't even clever.
You kiss your dad with that mouth?
Earnestness is wasted on someone pushing a bad faith a narrative as you are. You're just here to be an edgy contrarian for whatever junk motivations you might have. Disrespect is a 2 way street
I stand by my assertion that you're not only a bag of hair but also a saucer of wet mice
Oh. Cool. Dumb ass.
really.
that picture is decontextualized propaganda.
Well I guess if that's what you say, we have to believe you.
The funny thing about baggage in politics is that it needn't be based on truth or an actually immoral act. Plenty of politicians lose votes and races because they did something that prudes consider scandalous, but younger people don't care about. A ton of the reasons for people disliking politicians are either based on lies, or something that's unimportant.
I hear so many lies or half truths about politicians I don't like either, but still vote for because they're the best option. It's like people purity test by telling a lie when they don't need to in order to make their point. They then accuse the person who points out their lies of holding a position they do not hold. I don't like lying, even about people I hate. I want to dislike people for good reasons, and wish others did as well.
You mean the Russian puppet Jill Stein? I'm pretty sure the Republicans are already doing that one.
Can you elaborate on this comment a bit?
https://www.pbssocal.org/shows/democracy-now/clip/why-jill-stein-attended-moscow-dinner-with-putin-and-flynn
this link undermine the claim she is a Russian asset
jill stein isn't a russian puppet
Yes she is.
you have no proof for this.
You know what would be amazing, if a third party candidate would run and then demand policy position concessions form the Democratic nominee in exchange for dropping out, rather than running through the election and risking a Republican presidency.
The green party is routinely funded by the GOP. Their existence is to be a spoiler and pull votes from Dems to swing races towards republicans.
Theyβre already doing what theyβre being paid to do.
That's kinda what the WFP does?
They have a sort of tacit agreement with the Dems where they'll run their candidates in the Dem Primary pool and then both will endorse the winner, and then they'll only compete directly when there's no chance it'll throw a race to the Republicans.
I think that's the only rational way to interpret her run. Even she doesn't want to run through.
Edit: I checked her record on previous runs, and omg I was so wrong...
Yyyyyep, she's a regular Nader type, unfortunately.
How on the hell do Green party members stand behind her? Her leadership undermines all the good intentions of the party policies.
oh fuck off, jill
Why vote for Stein when you can directly vote for Trump? /s
a vote for stein is a vote against the other candidates in the race.
So you're effectively going to vote for nobody and let everyone else decide the race?
i haven't decided who i'm going to vote for, but rgiht now i like jill stein and cornel west.
I felt this way when I was 18 also. I voted green and Bush II won. I live in California, so the electoral college essentially means I still voted for Gore. It really doesn't matter unless you live in a swing state.
I'm confused as to why you're a third party voter who is against ranked choice though, it's really the only chance we have at being able to meaningfully vote with our conscience.
he was installed by his daddy's friends. we could have all voted for jill stein in 2000 and it wouldn't have mattered.
in the system we have where we vote for people to take positions of power, i will vote for the person who i want to win that. if i have a chance to change this system, we will be eliminating positions of power. i don't care to change how our masters are chosen: man need not be ruled.
Then why vote at all? Why would you want Jill Stein holding power over you? Dismissing the only chance you have to actually vote for a person you want to win seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face. But it's becoming more and more apparent that you live to troll, so I guess that follows.
Don't bother this dude literally spends all day spamming political threads with garbage on Lemmy.
His username is literally commie. Don't have to look much further
it takes literally no effort and i like to do it. in an ideal world, i don't want jill stein or anyone else to hold power. so long as this system exists, i'm not sure i want anyone else, but i'm honestly torn between her and cornel west right now.
this is just a personal attack
It's not wrong though
this is just more name-calling.
if i have the opportunity to advocate for a differenty system of choosing masters or advocating for a system with no masters, every minute i spend advocating for the different system with masters is a minute i'm not working toward the system i actually want.
But you're against rank choice voting (wasn't sure, but the person above said you were)?
I'm against spending my time advocating for it because I don't think it's a solution to the problems. I'm no more opposed to it than the current system.
But it would let you get the person you actually want to win to have a chance while also preventing the worst party in your eyes from winning.
I would absolutely pick West first and Biden second, third, or whatever depending on the candidates if we had that system, but in the current system I'm not voting for anyone other than the 2 parties that actually have a chance of winning because the only way you'd get that 3rd party to win is if somehow you convinced the entire country to ditch the idea of voting Democrat all at the same time, and even then the 3rd party would be the new Democrats that absofuckinglutley will have corpo scum "invade" and corrupt. They will go where the power is, they have no party.
Ranked choice allows us to see the scum and choose a better candidate, hoping others see the same.
I would not pick biden at all.
Thats perfectly fine, it's your vote! If we ever get a vote for ranked choice just don't sit that one out! That will allow you to vote your conscience and still have a chance :)
you see how I would not like ranked choice, right? I would be compelled to vote for people who I think should not have the position.
Maybe if you don't understand how the US electoral system works...
this is just posturing and rhetoric.
It is math, actually.
no, it's not.
Been there. Done that. Not again.
Putinβs cock ainβt gonna suck itself
Yet another useful idiot for #Putin.
Is she still willing to acknowledge worries from people about phones and microwaves? Or is she supporting science this year?
She still waiting on putin's directives
She is not the reason why Clinton lost and this amount of hate is not proportional. No, I didn't vote for Jill and I have no intention to.
Clinton lost because she is a corporate ghoul with no soul and no real views. She just believes whatever gets her the most attention and success.
Yeah how dare an elected official change their views to align with her desired constituents.
Real politicians tell their voters to shove it and cry about it!
Bernie Sanders has had similar worldviews since he was in politics. People with principles don't flip flop like she does.
That why Bernie is a MIC hawk for all the projects that get built in Vermont?
clinton because she was a bad candidate.
Don't let them lie. It is a 2 party system here bucko.
Oh Jill
Well, for anyone that cares, she's been a promoter of ranked choice voting.
Cool she was also out here being a fucking vaccine skeptic while people died
i like her, but this is a legitimate criticism and not a whacked out conspiracy theory. i don't care to debate it, either. it's actually a very valid reason to dislike her and prefer that she not hold public office. it's not disqualifying for me, personally, but i can respect people who take this position on it. at least you aren't screaming about meaningless bullshit.
More a self-promoter than anything.
The hell do you think political campaigns are?
That probably sounded smart in your head, but itβs a different level when a judge rules against your ridiculous election challenge lawsuit while calling it "daft," "ill-considered," and "pointless.β
"Dr. Stein publicly announced that she seeks to promote election integrity," the judge continued. But really, he argued, "she seeks to promote only herself," adding that there was one other benefit from her litigation "that would not otherwise have been conferred: the payment of $150,000 to Stein's lawyers."
https://www.businessinsider.com/jill-stein-still-owes-fec-campaign-finance-penalites-2020-10
I canβt be bothered to summarize the rest for you. Read it yourself.
she was challenging the election of trump in that lawsuit. and yet, she is accused of helping him win.
I understand Jill Stein's connections to Russia are because of RT (Russia Today), who was publishing lots of US progressive content back in 2016, at a time when no US media would touch any of it. Yea, it sucks that we had to have Russia of all places publish progressive content, such as Pro Bernie Sanders, StandingRock protests, and Green Party positions to get any visability AT ALL. So Stein was at a table with other people who were getting their issues published by RT, and Putin joined in. Now I wouldn't get anywhere near any RT content.
I mean that connection is hardly incidental, she attended conferences with Putin and Putin had it out for Clinton personally after she made comments calling his reelection's legitimacy into question because of how rigged it was.
Ah I remember this. In 2016 I didn't know what RT was but I really liked their coverage, mostly because NPR and any mainstream American media wouldn't cover Bernie in a positive manner. Got a bit of whiplash in 2017 from that.
Aw fuck, not again!
These comments are hilarious. All y'all arguing about third parties being spoilers. I can't believe anyone bothers to vote. If we could change anything by voting they wouldn't let us do it.