I have never whole heartedly supported the Democratic candidate (because I'm far more left than any of them have ever been), but I've always voted for them, because they're far better than the other option. This time they're just so far better than the other option, not because they are any better, but because the other option is so astoundingly worse. So, I guess, welcome to the club.
But I will say, Biden has been more progressive than any other candidate in my lifetime. Again, that's not saying much, but hey, it's better than nothing. He's just killing himself by supporting Israel.
(Repost of my comment from the same article in another community.)
The opinions of Biden seem to be all over the map, which is weird since he is the incumbent, and we all ought to know where he stands. There are lots of people (like you) who see the progressive things he has managed to get accomplished, even with a divided Congress in these past two years. Yet, there are others who perceive him as a right-of-center false choice.
He has always had trouble defining himself, which I think is part of the reason he was a perennial Presidential Primary loser. His stutter didn't help matters, nor his tendency to go off-script. But Trump's ascendancy gave him the perfect opportunity to create a definition, even if that definition is "Not Trump".
There is also a great deal of negative press out regarding Biden. Honestly if you look at policy and accomplishments he's done quite a lot of good things. It is an uphill battle of course with Congress and the Supreme Court being what they are. We are a big country and it takes constant action to push it to a more equitable place for the majority of us.
Frankly, I think Biden has done a lot to start that push. It will take a lot more though and we could backslide terribly if we don't keep pushing.
I love how you all ignore all the terrible policy this man voted for as a senator.
Well I guess maybe people change with maturity. He is certainly putting some good people into positions where they can do some good
Yeah I'm sure that comes as a huge comfort to the millions of people who's lives he ruined with his 1994 stop and frisk crime bill.
So offer a solution. Who has a chance that’s currently in the running to beat Trump in November?
Provide a name or walk away.
No I'm going to keep making it clear anybody who voted for Joe Biden in the 2020 primaries over the many superior options is a shit bag.
As I expected. NONE of you have ever provided a solution when asked, therefore it’s pretty easy to tell why you’re actually here.
You’re not fooling anyone.
We did provide a solution in 2020. Multiple. They were all rejected. It is not our responsibility to find a solution to a problem we didn't create.
How about you ask the people who voted for Joe Biden in the 2020 primaries what their plan is to get people to vote for him? If you're any indication the strategy is the same as always. "More finger wagging like the useless geriatrics we are!"
You talk a lot and still manage to say so little. What an amazing feat of… irrelevance.
You had NO solution in 2020. And you’re repeating the same tired shit this year. And like 2020, you’re going to disappear when the election is over and go back to arguing about video games.
NONE of you seem to have any solutions of what to do between the elections and only surface ever four years like a leap year but with ignorant catch phrases.
So you’ll understand when I say I don’t care if you forgive me for assuming your bad faith intentions here aren’t worthy of being taken seriously.
What the fuck are you talking about? The solution in the 2020 primaries was "don't vote for the procorporate establishment trash candidate". You all didn't like that plan so here we are.
So we’re cool to bring up the past as a rebuttal to a thing someone has done in the present?
You shit your pants when you were a baby. Should we accuse you of this every day for the rest of your life?
We also used to prescribe cigarettes to asthmatic patients. Wonder why we don’t anymore ?
It’s because we learned to be better at understanding the human body. Essentially… We got smarter. But reading though your comment history- you seem to be regressing, because it seems that every point you bring up is worse than the last.
... I'm sorry. Do you use this defense when you're talking about Trump or are you just a blatant hypocrite?
Biden is an evil person. Trump is an evil person. You shouldn't defend either of them.
Biden is an evil person. Trump is an evil person
Bernie's friend Biden is fucking awesome dude. Love the guy! Bernie likes Biden and I've never once noticed Bernie to be wrong about anything. The more you slander Biden the more I like Biden.
I use this defense when I see people bring up one’s past to put them back down after they’ve changed.
I use this defense when bad faith clowns try and shit on people in rehab who are trying to turn their lives around.
I use this defense whenever I see people that don’t know what they’re talking about, try and paint eh world as either black or white without even looking at the grey in between.
Your move, chuckles.
Biden hasn't changed. He's the same vile evil man he's always been.
Move along. You have nothing of value to add here.
You're the one defending a genocide supporting trash of a human being and refusing to hold them accountable.
And you’re the one who couldn’t answer a simple question when asked:
Who’d you put in his place that’s running with a chance to win?
You’d rather clown about and pretend to be outraged over something you didn’t even know was a thing prior to last October. We’ve all see you before. Every four years. We’re used to this shit as it’s never anything new.
I don’t take you seriously.
You're intentionally ignoring why I have no solution at this point. Because all other solutions have been eliminated. That's how you people work. You trash and undermine our every attempt at change and then when they're all defeated and we start saying we're not motivated to vote you play this fucking game like it wasn't you fighting us every step of the way.
This is on purpose. Building confidence is hard. Destroying it is easy. Plenty of domestic and foreign actors are heavily invested in mudding Waters surrounding biden. In hopes of him failing. Their candidates getting elected. Which is turning out even easier for them seeing as our corporate publicly traded media is eagerly assisting them.
The fascists will fall in line and vote for whoever they're offered. Simply because they've been told the opposite would be worse. Unfortunately the Democratic party is much more a coalition party of many disparate groups many who don't see a lot of representation. Preferring to fall in love rather than falling in line. And they are Their Own Worst Enemy because of that.
And even though it's a low bar. If I didn't Administration has delivered some of the biggest wins for labor in the last 100 years. He certainly not perfect. But the alternatives are absolutely worse. The question is are we going to be able to get our s*** together and not let ourselves be manipulated again.
It's really not, because a lot of left of center voters just won't bother to vote for someone they don't like.
Then frankly, they are idiots. Any foolish “protest vote” come November is just helping Trump.
I never said they were rational. I'm saying they matter. Calling them idiots does nothing to keep Trump out of power.
Maybe 2024 is the year people realize you can't shame voters to the polls. 2016 should've been the year that lesson was learned, but alas, here we are.
i'm convinced that there are permanent blind spots that all societies have and this is the american blind spot.
i also wonder if it spells our demise as a society as well.
The protest vote is the one cast against something, exactly like democrats are gonna do in November,
We aren't "protesting" anything. We are safeguarding America's longstanding core values of democracy and the rule of law.
Thats cute
We don't value democracy and the rule of law because they are "cute". We value them because countries that don't have them are a nightmare to live in.
The party that sues to keep 3rd parties off the ballot, is a private corporation that can select their own candidates, and gives voters no choice but their hand selected candidate is the party of democracy?
is a private corporation that can select their own candidates
You want the Republicans and Democrats to be public corporations? The Democratic charter has specified since the 1950's that voters chose the candidates.
And the DNC argued in court they are a private corporation that is not bound to follow their own bylaws.
Nope. A lawyer argued to win his court case that the DNC could legally CHANGE their own bylaws to abolish primaries. Which is technically true. The RNC can also do that due to the lack of government regulation.
Didn't know I could conjure up a new candidate just by aspiring to it.
I was referring to the party's aspirations. They have none beyond "ok."
If you're a progressive, Biden has been the most progressive president since Kennedy. Lol.
If you're not. Are you willing to have American democracy end, because you personally weren't courted by the president?
Knowing EC, it's very much the latter. In fact I suspect you should expect to be called a genocide supporter by them. Since you have dared not say something horrible about Biden.
Biden may be better than Trump, but don't dare say he is more progressive that Kennedy - or even Obama.
If you’re a progressive, Biden has been the most progressive president since Kennedy. Lol.
Not the flex you think it is
Biden has been the most progressive president since Kennedy.
LBJ was more progressive than Biden, and he took office after whom?
That's up for debate. For me, he's the most liberal since Kennedy but if you think it's LBJ instead, that's fine too!
Oh, he's certainly the most liberal since Kennedy. But he's not progressive except in the slogans of centrists.
I think that's a no true Scotsman kind of thing. Biden has done plenty of progressive policies. He's forgiven billions in student loan debt (and wanted to forgive more but R courts are political), he's passed infrastructure, and he's also passed some bills to keep the cost of medicine down.
Could he do more? Sure. If voters showed up at the midterms and gave him a D house, he could have done more. But they didn't.
Way too often, people let perfect be the enemy of good. Biden is good, not perfect.
He’s forgiven billions in student loan debt
Using a program signed into law by George W Bush. Does that mean Bush was also a progressive?
Biden passed comprehensive student loan forgiveness, and it was struck down by the supreme court for bullshit reasons. He's using the mechanisms of government that he can control.
Or did you forget that part?
Or did you forget that part?
No I didn't forget. But that's not what you were talking about. You were talking about the student loans forgiven during Biden's term. That's being done under the PSLF program signed into law by G.W. Bush in 2007.
Sure. If voters showed up at the midterms and gave him a D house, he could have done more. But they didn't.
If Democrats had used the majorities we gave them during his first two years instead of getting in their own way, this would be a convincing argument.
They did use them as best they could. They were hamstrung by a filibustering Senate, and two conservative Democrat senators (Sinema and Manchin) who refused to support getting rid of it, making killing the proposition of killing the filibuster DOA. As a result, their only choice to pass legislation was budget reconciliation, which aren't subject to filibuster. The issue is that reconciliation has several big limits:
The bill has to be related to government spending, revenue, and the debt ceiling. You can't toss in things like minimum wage increases or voting rights legislation.
You can only pass one of these bills per year (theoretically you can do more, but additional reconciliation bills have to go through the budgrt committee and with a 50/50 senate the GOP can just skip those meetings to deny quorum and keep it stuck)
Whatever passes still has to get at least 50 votes, which means either appeasing Manchin/Sinema or getting Republican votes (which ain't gonna happen)
And despite that, we still got the CHIPS act, an infrastructure bill, and the Inflation Reduction Act, which--even with Manchinema throwing as many grenades in the process as they could get away with--was the biggest climate change bill in our country's history. Not perfect, no, but a sizable step in the right direction, for once.
They were hamstrung by a filibustering Senate, and two conservative Democrat senators
That's what I mean by getting in their own way.
Biden had numerous accomplishments from his first 2 years, lol.
When you take the first step on, say, a hike, do you have no aspirations to take another and another?
Or would you say... well, this first step is too hard... I'm just gonna lie down and take a nap?
Where is all this "incremental progress" you centerists always talk about? Is it in the room with us now?
Where is all this “incremental progress” you centerists always talk about? Is it in the room with us now?
Undoubtedly you have the privilege not to notice it.
Billionaires are richer than ever. Housing is more expensive than ever. Food is more expensive than ever. Healthcare is more expensive than ever. Education is more expensive than ever. The planet is hotter than ever.
Are you referring to the pretty rainbow flags that McDonald's hangs once a year? Or the BLM posters in the middle of a gated community with all white residents?
Go on. Tell me about this incremental progress.
Go on. Tell me about this incremental progress.
I can be out and not fear for my life. I can even marry. My partner now only rarely gets "gook" or "chink" yelled at them.
99.8% of the time when this stuff comes out of folks it's because they are white and heterosexual and usually male.
For people secure in their white, hetero-normative privilege it's understandable that they only care about things that affect them... and there isn't all that much that affects them directly. But the truth is this is a VERY different world here in the US than when I was growing up. It's now a world that despite the noise from the MAGA crowd I can exist comfortably and securely as opposed to having to hide in a closet.
Whenever I have this discussion with folks who aren't gay or trans or BIPOC, it never occurs to them that there is a difference. Universally it turns out that since they aren't affected by these huge cultural shifts, they also don't look at the changes that make life easier for other groups. The simple fact that federal workers now have a $15 minimum wage means that a number of my peers now are not starving working for public lands agencies. That a number of labor laws have been enacted (including recently the non-compete thing) that makes discrimination against protected groups doesn't affect people like you because you are not typically discriminated against. In some cases the pandemic relief for you folks was just a nice bonus to spend on luxuries, not groceries. The grants for schools didn't matter because if you have kids they go to nice schools already.
I'm not going to argue with you - it's impossible. But please understand that your incredibly narrow view of the world is not shared by those who have experienced this seismic shift over the last 2-3 decades.
Ok. You're telling me this is incremental progress because what you've gained is worth more than everything else that's gotten worse. Fine. I'll accept that in the context of this conversation.
How much more expensive does housing, education, healthcare and food have to get before we can focus on it?
How hot does the planet have to get before we can focus on it?
When do we stop focusing on a specific experience someone has because of their race, gender or whatever else because the overall experience of everyone has gotten so bad we need to address it?
Nice. I can't even see your goal posts any more. You went from "there has been NO progress" to "well there has only been progress that matters to you". Despite the fact that I literally pointed out instances where things have gotten better for many groups of people.
Bye now.
I said there has been no incremental progress and I stand by that because personally setting what you've described against higher housing costs, education, food and healthcare along with rising temperatures means we are all worse off including you.
Don't confuse my willingness to set aside my own personal perspectives as moving the goal posts. Us arguing over who's right there isn't going to result in anything productive and you know it. So I set aside my personal perspectives and asked you to expand on yours.
Your response suggests you've never actually thought about it.
Billionaires are richer than ever. Housing is more expensive than ever. Food is more expensive than ever. Education is more expensive than ever. The planet is hotter than ever.
Thanks to everybody who didn't vote Dem.
Healthcare is more expensive than ever.
Not for people who have Obamacare vs before Obamacare.
How many people do you think had $400 monthly premiums for individual plans back in 2007?
How many people do you think had $400 monthly premiums for individual plans back in 2007?
Every single person who had a preexisting health condition. If they could get insurance at all that is.
Or would you say… well, this first step is too hard… I’m just gonna lie down and take a nap?
That's what the party did with the public option and increasing the minimum wage.
That’s what the party did with the public option and increasing the minimum wage.
So because you didn't get everything you want you are just gonna stamp your feet, take you ball and go home?
That’s EXACTLY what they do. Every four years. The Bernie bros did the same thing in 2016, and again in 2020. And these clowns think they’re pulling some new grassroots movement. They have no idea that they’re already considered to be non voters.
They’re doing nothing. And by that I mean, they’re doing a LOT more nothing than even they think they are. Their little “protest” is completely meaningless.
Unless their intent is to get trump elected, and for some- this is the case.
The Bernie bros did the same thing in 2016, and again in 2020. And these clowns think they’re pulling some new grassroots movement.
A greater percentage of Sanders supporters voted for Clinton than Clinton supporters voted for Obama. Clinton supporters formed a PAC to get McCain elected.
They’re doing nothing. And by that I mean, they’re doing a LOT more nothing than even they think they are. Their little “protest” is completely meaningless.
Since they can be safely ignored, why aren't you ignoring them?
Unless their intent is to get trump elected, and for some- this is the case.
Why do centrists pretend that those to their left are all the way to their right?
Because they are. Both are trying to get Trump elected. On purpose or not.
Convenient that people to your left are trying to get trump elected simply by disagreeing with you.
People to your left are allowed to be dissatisfied even when you get everything you want.
Yeah this "you're throwing a tantrum because you didn't get everything you wanted" is rich coming from the people who got Joe Biden elected in the 2020 primaries. It's pure projection on their part. They would throw a tantrum if they didn't get everything they wanted. The moment progressives start dominating primaries these people will stop showing up to vote in the general election.
It's pure ego. They've built their personality around being "the good guys" compared to Republicans so when someone comes along and says "we need to do more" it's a crisis for them. They can't let anyone accomplish more than they did because it would force them to admit they became complacent.
Democrat voting Boomers are still Boomers at the end of the day. Selfish pieces of shit.
Yeah this “you’re throwing a tantrum because you didn’t get everything you wanted” is rich coming from the people who got Joe Biden elected in the 2020 primaries.
How do you know that? I voted Bernie and I think you're throwing a tantrum.
They would throw a tantrum if they didn’t get everything they wanted.
I voted Bernie. Not throwing a tantrum. I'm thrilled that Biden is the most progressive president since LBJ if not FDR.
As far as I'm concerned we only have one legitimate party at the moment and that's the one I'm going to vote for.
But, even though Biden isn't nearly as progressive as I'd like, he still beats the brakes off of any other democratic president we've had other than Jimmy Carter, so I wouldn't say he's doing a bad job per se.
If he were running against a "rational" Republican I'd still vote for him, so I wouldn't say I'm motivated solely by my hatred for Trump.
Biden, DNC, establishment Democrats and Boomer Democrat voters: Okay guys we need to figure out who to elevate in the 2028 Republican primaries who's just as vile as Trump so those uppity leftists will have to keep voting for our pro-corporate asses.
Okay guys we need to figure out who to elevate in the 2028 Republican primaries
Not a single Dem has that power nor would have wished a GOP candidate as bad for America as Convicted Felon and Sex Offender Treason Trump.
who’s just as vile as Trump
I'm not expecting anyone as vile as Convicted Felon and Sex Offender Treason Trump although the GOP does have a knack for continually disappointing America with their bad candidates.
will have to keep voting for our pro-corporate asses.
Corporations must be super mad at "pro-corporate" Joe Biden for raising the minimum corporate tax rate from 0% to 15% even though tax rates are the single thing that matter above all else.
so those uppity leftists
The indispensible prerequisite for moving the Overton window to the left is for the GOP to lose elections. And leftist who doesn't understand that will automatically transform themselves into a perpetual Loser.
Not a single Dem has that power nor would have wished a GOP candidate as bad for America as Convicted Felon and Sex Offender Treason Trump.
Regardless about what some random idiot reporter said 8 years ago, (1) no Dem has any powers to select a GOP nominee and (2) Dems aren't responsible for how terrible the RNC's nominees are .
Learn about the electoral college. We're literally forced into this 2 party choice.
Learn about the electoral college. We’re literally forced into this 2 party choice.
And nobody alive today created this. We all inherited it, just like you. It's just the reality and if you don't recognize that you are condemning yourself to be a lifetime loser.
Yes which Boomer Democrats exploit in the primaries.
So why can't leftists organize and overpower the boomer dems in the primary?
Because decades of being marginalized by Boomers have left generations after them trained to think their participation has no effect. Which is precisely the intention. You're happy it works right up until the point where we don't vote for your geriatric genocide supporting procorporate trash of a human being in the general election.
Yeah, I'm quite upset you would abstain and let a fascist walk in, sure. That is fair.
But you're deliberately avoiding the question. If leftists are so numerous and their views so popular, WHY CAN THEY NOT OVERPOWER THE BOOMER DEMS?
Face it- you do the same shit everyone else does. You cry and whine because you didn't get your way and you stop all effort. You didn't get every damn thing you wanted (besides student loans forgiven, medicare insulin capped, biggest climate bill ever, a president walking in a picket line, etc.) so it's time to give up? It's time to abstain because of genocide knowing the other actual choice would be FAR WORSE for Palestine (let alone everything else)? But hey, at least go go gadget would get to be all haughty and on their high horse saying "my conscience is clear" while everything gets worse.
Maybe be in it for the long haul and be the change you want to see. Again- if leftists are so numerous they should have no problem pulling AOCs all over the place and changing the landscape dramatically. The right can do it so why can't the left?
Again, I'm not upset you have morals and want to end the genocide in Palestine, etc. I do too. I want better healthcare (either nationalized, single payer, some universal with public/private a la Germany, etc.), I want better social safety nets, guaranteed parental leave, etc. I think a lot do.
I'm upset that people like you bitch and moan all the goddamn time and act as if you're so marginalized and so victimized that you not only abstain yourself but convince others to do the same, or don't vote in primaries, or don't volunteer, etc.
You need to face up to the facts- either leftist/progressive voters are NOT as numerous as you all think and you get represented precisely how much you should be given how big the tent has to be in a FPTP system or leftist/progressive voters are numerous and are simply extremely apathetic where they can't be bothered to turn out for someone that isn't basically their knight in shining armor. In which case, again, they get represented EXACTLY how much they should because they are lazy and flakey and not worth anyone's time courting.
I don't want to beat people down but I'm tired of people acting as if there is a huge groundswell of support. Study after study and election after election show that the issue is exactly as I described in the previous paragraph. Either show up and be counted or continue to whine when things don't go your way.
Maybe be in it for the long haul and be the change you want to see. Again- if leftists are so numerous they should have no problem pulling AOCs all over the place and changing the landscape dramatically. The right can do it so why can’t the left?
Because America isn't a progressive country, progressive ideas are not popular, and outside of the Internet most Americans are perfectly happy with the heinous and stupid bullshit their government does as long as the news is full of SLAMS and DEMOLISHING opponents
And I say that as a progressive who's shown up and been counted in every election for the last 24 years.
Thank you for saying this.
Team Red put in serious effort to drag this country hard right. They can taste victory in the air and have YUGE plans for remaking this country into the Authoritarian Right-Wing Dictatorship they've been craving since Bush's years. Fuck 50 years of Republican rule. They want a Permanent Republican Majority (for at LEAST 20 years), and they'll tear down Democracy (because that has to have something to do with Democrats, am I right) to get it.
If the Right functioned like the Left did, the Republicans would be locked out of the political system at the first hint of adversity. But they didn't, because the Right-Wing Shitheads' answer to RINOs was to organise and work to push them out of office in favour of hard-right ideologues. Vote for the Conservative in the Primary and the Republican in the General. That's their motto.
Right-Wing Shitheads win when people like go_go_gadget convince our voters they should sit home because they didn't get exactly what they want. It's all hands on deck to stop a naked Fascist takeover of the country, and we need to be calling the idiots on our side out whenever they push these memes that the best answer to feckless politicians on our side is to take your ball and go home.
To all of you saying stay home or vote third party, this is exactly how the country keeps shifting Right.
I haven't been staying at home or voting third party and that doesn't seem to be working either.
It is. Really, it is. Just look at what Trump did to everything you supposedly care about from 2017 through 2020. I said in 2020 that had we elected Hillary Clinton POTUS, we'd at least not have backslid as hard as we did from 2017 to 2020. But people had to express their displeasure at Hillary, and stayed home or voted Third Party, and from 2017 until 2020, they got what they voted for, hard, without lube.
It's the same thing now in 2024. Biden HAS made concrete gains in areas I'm interested in, ranging from investing in green energy, pushing for domestic chip production, and standing up for minority rights in all areas. Trump plans on reversing all of that and then some with his Project 2025. Stay home and get Project 2025.
Which is why I treat voting as an obligation and not have any hope for the future. Because when it works it still looks like shit, doesn't seem to do anything, and a bunch of assholes can throw a wrench in the works and then we get even more shit.
I'm still gonna vote because I live here and I have to. But I really don't think it's the way you get anything done.
No it keeps shifting right because Moderate Democrat voters and Establishment Democrats sabotage any and all efforts to move it left.
Make up your mind. If you didn't need us to win the 2020 general election you don't need us in 2024.
besides student loans forgiven
Student loan forgiveness was rejected by the supreme court. All the loan forgiveness you're seeing is the result of the PSLF program signed by G.W. Bush in 2007. Are you trying to give Biden credit for something Bush did?
medicare insulin capped
Boomers got what they wanted. Yay.
biggest climate bill ever
Sure. This isn't nothing. However you should compare what's in the IRA compared to what was in the BBB. The BBB is what Biden and Bernie worked on together. The BBB did not pass. This was a very disappointing outcome.
a president walking in a picket line
Fucking bread crumbs. Biden blocked the rail strike. The rail workers were fighting for 15 sick days. Some have 7. Most have less than that. Some sound byte by an IBEW administrative worker doesn't change that. Our votes are worth more than that.
You don't get to define what is "everything we wanted". Biden does not deserve our votes. Our votes are worth more than what he's done. If you don't like it find someone else to vote for your procorporate trash candidate.
Biden does not deserve our votes. Our votes are worth more than what he’s done.
Okay Ivan. You are speaking for yourself and nobody else, unless its Putin. He damn well deserves our votes. But if you hate that he raised taxes on corporations which is what they hate the most, then you aren't one of us.
Obama in 2020: This president [Trump] and those in power – those who benefit from keeping things the way they are – they are counting on your cynicism. They know they can’t win you over with their policies. So they’re hoping to make it as hard as possible for you to vote, and to convince you that your vote doesn’t matter. That’s how they win. That’s how they get to keep making decisions that affect your life, and the lives of the people you love. That’s how the economy will keep getting skewed to the wealthy and well-connected, how our health systems will let more people fall through the cracks. That’s how a democracy withers, until it’s no democracy at all. We can’t let that happen. Do not let them take away your power. Don’t let them take away your democracy. Make a plan right now for how you’re going to get involved and vote. Do it as early as you can and tell your family and friends how they can vote too.
barrack "I'll kill you at a wedding" Obama, barrack "I lied about closing gitmo" Obama, barrack "expand the surveillance state Obama is not going to tell me what to do.
this is also not evidence that Democrats even know where the left is.
when you get me a democrat that wants to close the prisons and the banks and end the institution of private property and the state, I will vote for them.
At this point, you're asking for a communist. Good luck trying to get that going in the states.
And you're asking us to elect procorporate trash.
No.
I would also accept a libertarian socialist. liberals aren't leftists, though, and Democrats are liberal at best. some are much worse.
Because decades of being marginalized by Boomers have left generations after them trained to think their participation has no effect
That's on you and nobody else. It's incredibly stupid for people to think your participation has no effect. Dems typically beg people to participate in every primary and election and the GOP typically hopes few people participate.
What a pathetic deflection away from the fact that Democrat boomers are still boomers and vote like the selfish pieces of shit they are.
Not me. I’m motivated on making sure myself and all my loved ones get to continue to vote. Stopping Trump and voting for Biden just so happen to line up for that.
Exactly. "Voting for Biden just to stop trump" is a pretty meaningless statement.
At this point, I would say nearly all of them are, but then again, at this point- that’s all the reason one needs.
This is a DIRE situation we are in. It needs to be taken seriously.
This is a DIRE situation we are in. It needs to be taken seriously.
in every single election cycle, it's always been that red maga falls in line while blue maga shames everyone into voting for a guy that is 99% same as the red maga guy, but, of course, that naturally doesn't work; if you look at people's behavior now, compared to before, the situation appears the same because everyone's doing the same thing.
if the situation were truly dire; then people would behave accordingly; but they're not.
if the situation were truly dire; then people would behave accordingly; but they’re not.
That's a completely false assumption.
[How they made Germany great again: The Nazi social media campaign of 1932]
I know I am. I mean it it's not like I would vote for any Republican because I have yet to see one that lines up with my philosophy. And since we have a shitty to party system, I can't reasonably expect to be able to have a voice by voting for anybody else, so I have no choice but to compromise by voting for the lesser of two bastards. We seriously need ranked voting in this country so badly. It's not a perfect system, but it's so much better than what we're doing now.
Of course. He'd never win if not for the alternative being a fascist convicted of multiple kinds of fraud.
Hell, he almost didn't the first time around and that was WITHOUT being a willing participant in numerous crimes against humanity!
Im not American but doesnt everyone usually vote to keep the worst out not the best one in?
Kinda... mostly because the best ones never become candidates. The parties push the candidates that serve the interests of the partys donors then try to convince the voters they actually care.
Most elections are a choice between two mediocre candidates.
With the current state of the Republican party, it's truly about getting more of them out of power. Unless you're a white Christofascist bootlicker.
I used to mainly vote third party as a protest vote for both sides to do better. Didn't matter the party, really.
I voted for Obama out of genuinely wanting him in office. I thought he was decent overall but he did disappoint me.
I voted for Biden purely to keep Trump out of office. Even so, I think Biden has largely been a better President than Obama was, though the Gaza/Israel thing is really testing that. I would love to have a more progressive choice, but any time I am disappointed in Biden, I just remind myself the alternative and I would crawl across a mile of broken glass to vote for him.
So I would anecdotally say this election is outside the norm.
So I would anecdotally say this election is outside the norm.
If you mean "unique in 240 years of American history" I agree.
So I would anecdotally say this election is outside the norm.
as will be the next, and the one after that, as well as all of the ones following; meanwhile you'll continue crawling over broken glass and giving a pass to ongoing genocides because you believe it's better than the alternative somehow without realizing there's one alternative.
no one knows the right answer, but there are plenty of wrong answers and 2 of those have been placed before and you're told that you must select one.
Told? It's just math. If you want to change things, you have to either do it from within an existing party or wait for an existing party to implode and then maybe there is an opportunity for change.
I'm fifty. I spent a lot of fucking elections wasting my vote on third parties, thinking I was sending some kind of message or making things better, but here we are. I wasted every single vote prior to 2008. Would anything be different if I hadn't? No. Would anything be different if a bunch of people hadn't? I don't know. Maybe.
as i said before: no one knows the right answer, but there are plenty of wrong answers, we know they're wrong because we've tried them and things don't get better (and we sometimes try it again with the same results); we're only allowed to pick from among those wrong answers only.
trying anything otherwise might also be a wrong answer; but we will never know because there are plenty who will shame you if don't pick the same wrong answer they do.
Fair. Government is hard. There is no such thing as a right answer. Just shit that we find out later didn't work. I'm not happy with either of the two parties; I don't really believe in parties anyway. But here we are.
Fight the good fight, my friend, but just don't let fascism take us. My grandfather fought against the fascists in WW2, and here I am doing the same (though admittedly with way less personal risk) 80 years later. I don't like it, but it is what it is.
So I would anecdotally say this election is outside the norm.
I worry that it's the new baseline.
New baseline?! I have often gotten the feeling that you are an adolescent. It would explain so many of the shitty hot takes and bad ideas. But this really kind of solidifies it. Being young is not an insult however. We all were at one point in time. And we all matured and grew up.
This is so not a new thing though. Trump is literally Reagan part 2. And that's just within the last 50 years that's not even mentioning Nixon or all the others that came before him. The truth is this is been the way it has always been. It sucks that so much of the energy of youth is wasted tilting at windmills. Instead of actually understanding and working to improve things. Actively demotivating non Republican voters in an effort to get the Republican candidate to win. That sounds like a real good way to improve things.
As someone who lived through the Reagan administrations, Trump is far, far worse than Reagan part 2.
Granted there are similarities such as Reagan ignoring AIDS and Trump ignoring Covid, but at the same time, Reagan was far more likeable while committing actual war crimes in the Iran/Contra affair, and having the CIA dealing cocaine.
40% of voting-eligible Americans simply don’t vote at all.
I mean Boomer Democrat voters could sit down and ask themselves "Is voting for a geriatric establishment white man really the move in the 2020 primaries if we want those "young" (read: anyone under the age of 65) voters to engage in politics"
But they won't because even though they vote Democrat they're still Boomers. And Boomers can't handle not getting their way.
If you have a non proportional system where parties don't make coalitions, there's no other choice (unless you live in a region where a specific party always wins with a majority of the votes, then do what you want).
Wasn't the case with Obama, as one easy example
Well, millennials voted for Obama because he genuinely inspired hope. Then we saw how he governed and it killed our entire generation's sense of hope.
Then you saw Biden being a better president than Obama because he was more experienced. Maybe the answer here is to pay more attention to what a politician does than what he says
LOL, if that were answer, then Biden would be judged on the anti-drug legislation he spearheaded in '84, '86, and '88 that gave us expanded sentences for possession, civil asset forfeiture, and the racist sentencing disparity between crack and powdered cocaine. He'd also be judged on the 1994 crime bill he co-authored that led to the largest increase in mass incarceration in 40 years. Oh, and let's not forget the time he teamed up with Robert Byrd, a Senator and Klansman, to pass anti-bussing legislation. Point is, Biden has benefited a lot from people listening to what he says and forgetting what he's done.
Biden has benefited a lot from people listening to what he says and forgetting what he’s done.
You mean forgetting that Biden has the lowest unemployment rate since the 1960's? Forgetting that he raised the minimum tax rate on corporations from 0% to 15%? Forgetting that that every few days there is a record stock market high? That nobody could have handled Covid or Ukraine better?
Biden is the victim of a lot of people forgetting what he's done.
I don't think you understand my point. You made a comment about how I should judge politicians on their actions, not their words. So I pointed out that Biden's actions before his election included anti-bussing legislation, several racist drug bills, and the worst expansion of the prison-industrial complex in history. I'm glad you're happy with Biden's performance as President, but you clearly ignored a lot of what he did as a Senator and listened to what he said as a presidential candidate (or you really like racist drug policies and mass incarceration).
I couldn't care less what Biden did in the 1970's. It is ridiculous to call him "racist", as he was the running mate of the first black president.
Your original comment:
Maybe the answer here is to pay more attention to what a politician does than what he says.
Your current comment:
I couldn't care less what Biden did in the 1970's.
Maybe the answer here is to not leave condescending replies to other people's comments if you're just going to completely contradict yourself and negate your own point.
Dude what a politicians does NOW matters a hell of a lot more than what they did 50 years ago lol.
and negate your own point.
And Biden being the VP of the first black president 100% negates him being against forced busing in the 1970's. And everybody was against force busing in the 1970's. It was a stupid policy then.
Dude what a politicians does NOW matters
Do you understand how insanely incoherent what you're saying is? You're saying that my mistake in voting for Obama was that I listened to what he said instead of paying attention to what he did. But I should only pay attention to what a politician doing NOW, not what they've done in the past. So I shouldn't just listen to what they say they'll do in the future, but I can't judge them based on what they've done in the past...so how am I supposed to pick a candidate? Use psychic powers to know what they're going to do in the future?!?!?!
Like, I could keep arguing about Biden; you're ignoring 20 additional years of racist legislation I brought up, and I didn't even get to his support for the Iraq War...but I don't even care about that. Explain how the hell your philosophy of ignoring what a candidate says and watching what they do while ignoring what they've done makes any kind of sense.
But I should only pay attention to what a politician doing NOW, not what they’ve done in the past.
Yes. Now as in current term of office. Not 50 years ago. Biden's rejected of forced busing 50 years ago does not have the slightest relevance to anything he does as president. Do you not understand how much political climates change in a huge way over 1/2 of a century?
and I didn’t even get to his support for the Iraq War
You mean when Biden was one of the very few senators who voted against the first Iraq was in 1993?
but I can’t judge them based on what they’ve done in the past
If you are complaining about something Biden did in the 1970's, it's just because you are on some ridiculous anti-Biden kick. Everybody knows it doesn't have the slightest relevance to his presidential terms.
Explain how the hell your philosophy of ignoring what a candidate says and watching what they do while ignoring what they’ve done makes any kind of sense.
Watch what Biden has done as president. He's been the most progressive president since FDR. Pretty simple.
OK, you're very clearly just avoiding all the things I say that you don't want to hear, and honestly, this feels like I'm just punching down now, so I'm just gonna stop. Good luck buddy.
I generally like Biden and I’m still more motivated by voting against trump. I’m amazed on a daily basis how many ignorant school shooter wannabes roam around here chanting fantasies without any basis in reality convincing themselves that they aren’t culpable if they don’t accept reality.
this is every election since ive been old enough to vote in them
Yes. Please do be motivated by stopping Trump!
And especially don't be demotivated to go voting because you don't like the alternative.
I honestly wonder what I'd do if a non-maga candidate replaced trump. Not vote for them, but I might vote for a third party at that point. Unless something changes, it wouldn't much matter; my voter registration is in a place that is very comfortably red so I'm not going to be able to change that.
You can still affect local elections, which arguably will have a greater impact on your day to day life anyway.
I vote for whom I want in the primaries and yeah for the locals as well
I vote for whom I want in the primaries
Boomer Democrat voters in the 2020 primaries: That's cute you think you have a voice. We've already chosen a geriatric establishment white man.
I live in a similar red area and democrats need to come back here for the local change to happen. More than half of local seats only have a Republican option. There are almost as many Libertarians running as democrats. The democrats gave up on way too many rural areas.
Trump isn't much different than any generic Republican. Bush was far worse than him.
Didn’t you say you were never going to post here again after accusing the mods of being Zionist genocide supporters?
Just curious.
Remind me again why Ozma was banned from here
So, did you set a specific date for when you’re going to leave this community like you said you would? Because I know if I thought the mods were…. “Genocide supporting zionists”, I wouldn’t feel comfortable supporting their community with content for any longer than I had to.
A community that only gets to see one view of the world is the one that most needs factual correction.
Why does reddit r/conservative ban anyone that opposes their viewpoints? They want to keep the echo chamber going.
So you lied. interesting that lies should come from someone that’s banned for misinformation so often.
Who’d have thought it could happen.
Where was the lie?
You said you weren’t going to post here anymore because the mods were “Zionist genocide supporters.”
Two lies there.
One: You’re still posting here.
Two: The mods are definitely not Zionist genocide supporters.
If you lack the strength of conviction it takes to simply restrain from backing up your own words of protest, how can anyone take what you say seriously? Add in the fact that a lot of what you say is complete misinformation….
LMFAO. Bush was terrible. Convicted Felon and Sex Offender Treason Trump has been rated the worst president in history by historians. Biden was ranked the 14th best BTW
Damn Trump didn't lie about WMD's in Iraq killing >1 million people but he's a convicted sex offender! That's so much worse!
Treason Trump supports War Criminal Putin whose killed many millions in Ukraine. Bush was terrible too but historians rank Convicted Felon and Rapist Treason Trump as the absolute worst for his neofascist attacks on democracy and the rule of law and Treason Trump will still be ranked dead last 50 years from now and 100 years from now.
How sad is it when being a certified rapist is not even Treason Trump's worst crime?
I'm just done "trusting" Republicans in general. Romney seems to be the only one left that has a moral compass (that doesn't just point to "Nazi Jesus"). Even then I don't believe he'd give a damn about the poorest among us as long as he could point to record stock prices and low unemployment.
Water is wet.
The electoral college is the electoral college
I mean...no shit?
Only the best current reason. When frump is out of the picture for good we can focus on other things
Also it is no reflection at all on Biden that he happens to be running against the person whom historians have ranked as the worst president in American history. Biden is ranks as 14th best president out of 46.
Cant say. Nobody can read the future for good or bad. I just prefer to be optimistic rather than not. All i can say is that the current choices are all there is and, as always, the lesser of two evils is what we have to work with
there hasn't been an election where it wasn't choosing the least bad person.
I think as candidates Clinton, W. Bush, Gore, Obama, McCain had sincere support overshadowing the need to stop some particular bad person instead. As misguided as I think it is, Trump voters also are all about Trump less than stopping Biden. I can't personally remember a race where "the other side must be stopped" as pretty much the sole consideration among the voters until the Trump era.
Yes, third party candidates are dismissed in a self fulfilling prophecy, but also that reality drives most reasonable would-be third party candidates to one of the viable parties, generally leaving third party candidates that wouldn't be that popular anyway.
I think as candidates Clinton, W. Bush, Gore, Obama, McCain had sincere support
Joe Biden was better and more progressive than literally every one of those guys. It's not Biden's fault that you haven't been paying much attention.
I can’t personally remember a race where “the other side must be stopped” as pretty much the sole consideration among the voters until the Trump era.
I can't personally remember a president who has achieved more progress than Joe Biden, and I can remember every president starting with Nixon.
Note I didn't claim the were progressive or that Biden did nothing, I'm saying voter sentiment is basically "not trump" rather than "for Biden". I'll accept that Kerry was in a similar position of being the "not W" candidate, but other than that I can't think of a candidate whose popular support was so much more about "the other guy" than the candidate themselves.
WTF? Dude it is not Bidens fault that Convicted Felon and Sex Offender Treason Trump has been ranked as the worst president in history by historians. That means there are lots of "Biden Republicans". But Dems would be voting for Biden over any Republicrat.
As long as you don't see Palestinians/Arabs as people, I agree.
You mean the people that Biden got the UN Security Council to pass a cease fire resolution for?
Arabs are the people who aren't doing shit for Gaza. How Egypt/Lebanon/Turkey etc aren't taking in refuges from Gaza and shipping tons of aid in or even offering peacekeepers? Any or all of those countries could have easily done more than Biden but they didn't lift a finger. Looks like Arabs don't care anything at all about Palestinians judging by their actions.
I can’t personally remember a race where “the other side must be stopped” as pretty much the sole consideration among the voters until the Trump era.
The Kerry '04 campaign might as well have been "Anyone But Bush", and it went down in flames as a result. Every time Kerry was pressed on any kind of progressive-ish sounding issue, he ran to the right for fear of spooking the moderate centrist voter. Every time Bush was pressed on his conservative bona fides, he just pointed to 9/11 and said "I kept us safe" and the news media ate that shit up.
In the end, you had the Strong MAGA Security candidate in Bush and the flaky swish liberal candidate in Kerry. Kerry lost by 3M votes and 35 ECs, dwarfing the Bush/Gore defeat. Then he slunk back to the Senate and triangulated votes with John McCain for the next eight years.
I was genuinely excited for Obama. I strongly supported him during the primary, was thrilled he won, and was very hopeful when he was elected.
Quickly disappointed not long after, but at least when he was first being elected it was definitely a "I really like this candidate and am hopeful they'll live up to their promises."
Obama's first go around felt pretty legit.
Well it worked the first time around...
"A majority of voters backing Biden are mostly motivated by the greatest threat America and the western world has ever faced."
Biden has done so much fucking shit for the average american (which is saying something thanks to the Do Nothing fascists)
First US president to join the union workers ON THE PICKET LINE In many ways we have handled this world-wide inflation shit better than any other in the G7 nations Unemployment numbers are at record lows, .01 lower than any other time in the past 10 years at one point in january and april of last year and since then has only risen around 0.3-4 points, removed healthcare related debt from credit scores
I could go on and on, but instead, others have already done so for me (and these aren't even super recent):
Him joining a picket line for a photo op is kinda cancelled out by signing that bill that blocked the rail workers from striking.
Cancelled out? I remember when I was 14 and everything seemed simple.
Biden is fucking awesome. The more progressive president since LBJ if not FDR.
No kidding? Lol
Biden is not my favorite, but it’s that or fascism.
Thanks Democrats. Hopefully you risking everything to stroke this dudes ego doesn't give the Republicans control forever. Exact same shit as 2016. I have no choice but to vote for Biden. I wonder whom the democratic party will pick next, probably Mayor Pete, and it'll then be another vote for Pete to save democracy.
Only reason he won the primary in 2020. Idealists don't do well against fascists but moderates are inoffensive enough to
It's a dangerous game, as Biden's not bringing anything to the table on his own. Hillary lost in 2016 with a 10-pt plunge in support, because of the Comey October Surprise. Biden could easily suffer the same fate, if his lackluster supporters get spooked a few weeks before the general election.
Biden’s not bringing anything to the table on his own.
You mean, besides besides being the most progressive president since LBJ?
"During his first 20 years in Congress," Obama said, "he opposed every civil rights bill that came up for a vote, once calling the push for federal legislation a farce and a shame."
LBJ was the president who got the most important civil right bill passed. Biden was the most progressive president since LBJ and FDR.
Yes it was. Did you not realize that Lincoln came before FDR?
Logical thought is essentially a process of figuring things out step by step. Think of it like putting together a puzzle where each piece must fit perfectly with the others to form a complete picture. It’s a way of thinking that helps connect ideas in a rational, sensible order. It starts with simple truths, builds on them, and leads to a solid conclusion, just like following a set of directions to get to a particular place. source
does repeating this lie help you believe it?
does repeating this lie help you believe it?
LMFAO. I believe that Biden was the most progressive president since LBJ because I have been paying attention to politics since Nixon was in office. I can remember the end of the Vietnam War, and the minute details of every administration since. Which particular president do you think was better than Biden?
I can remember the end of the Vietnam War
how do you not remember biden's anti-gay votes or his anti-gay, anti-me2, pro-studentloandebt, or pro-isreal advocacy; like most boomers do?
was it because none of that affects you or is it because you're willfully ignoring the last few decades to make his presidency look better in your eyes?
or is it simply because trump is so bad that the alternative is automatically good enough?
How did you not know that Biden has done way more to nullify student loan debt than every other president?
How did you not know that Biden got a Gaza cease fire passed by the US security council?
biden’s anti-gay votes
The president does not vote against anything. I said Biden is the most progressive PRESIDENT.
How can you not know that Biden has been more progressive on me2 or lgbtq THAN ANY OTHER PRESIDENT?
or is it simply because trump is so bad that the alternative is automatically good enough?
Well we know that Convicted Sec Offender Treason Trump was ranked worst of all presidents by historians. So a house plant would be better than Treason Trump. But doesn't change the fact that Biden has been the most progressive president in the last 50 years.
he literally use to brag about getting the bill that created our student loan debt problem passed the senate.
also: he's been in federal politics for over 50 years; but we can only judge him for 3 of them?
ysk that cherry picked 3 years has been hit and miss at best.
he literally use to brag about getting the bill that created our student loan debt problem passed the senate.
He is literally the one and only president out of 46 president to cancel student loan debt.
but we can only judge him for 3 of them?
I judge President Biden compared to the previous 50 years of US presidents and the neofascist alternative waging war on democracy and the rule of law.
Aye, this is me
Honest motives
I mean, yeah.
Duh
Yes, Democrats know this and are taking the opportunity to move to the right.
I'm okay with that.
Anything but trump. Next term I do expect Biden to really kick around hard as hell gave nothing to lose, kick Israeli govt to the curb, kick the right-wing extremist religious out of the government, that sort of thing
You know what my main problem with Joe Biden is? I'm 37, he's what? 79? I've been a citizen of the United States longer than he has. He's spent the last three generations in either congress or the white house, and the people who do that don't live in the same reality as the rest of us. Too many of the laws outright don't apply to them, either because there are literal exceptions or "we don't enforce that on them." Joe Biden doesn't know the first fucking thing about being an American because he hasn't ever actually done it.
Joe Biden doesn’t know the first fucking thing about being an American because he hasn’t ever actually done it.
His family struggled a lot when he grew up in a blue collar town, moved so his dad could find steady work, but still were definitely middle class. Then he worked his way through college and law school.
We can say his decades in Congress and the presidency have corrupted him, but the idea that he hasn't ever actually been "a real American" (the way you are using it) is an outright lie.
You know who hasn't? The billionaire who was born with a silver spoon in their mouth, schooled with other wealthy people in NYC, then was gifted a huge amount of to start, and then spent their entire career screwing the blue collar worker to line his own pockets.
If Biden has never been a "real American," then how do we describe Trump's lack of real Americaness?
"You think Hitler's bad, what do you call Satan?!?! Checkmate!"
Yes, that was clearly my argument. Good reading comprehension there and not some mindless kneejerk "muh both sides" response.
lmao his family "suffered" because his father was a fraudster that tried to get rich on scamming the US government during the war. The stories about his blue-collar roots are as real as Kim Jong Un inventing pizza.
And I'm going to listen to your baseless accusation and ignore Bernie Sander's crystal clarity? lmfao.
Bernie Sanders: Trump is the most corrupt president in our lifetimes
[Remarks by President Biden on Democracy and Freedom | Normandy, France]
Too many of the laws outright don’t apply to them
Which specific law does not apply to Joe Biden? You simply made that up. His son was just found guilty on a charge that almost no other person in America would even be charged with.
Biden
a Catholic president with a prosecutor for a vice president
the last four years have consisted of abortion rights being stripped, Cop City built to train police to subjugate citizens by razing a national forest, workers protested and were told to stop on threat of their livelihood with no change in worker's rights or higher wages, immigration policies have deteriorated, food cost are astronomical and inflation is rising on everything without stopping, journalism is dying due to corporate buyout with journalist being silenced
but Biden who is a career politician going on almost half a century now who is running against a career donor is progressive
when was he ever progressive? what about Harris? have either of these two been progressive at any point in their careers?
Biden worked on laws and policies that would put people in jail and Harris worked her career enforcing such laws
If a Catholic and a Prosecutor with a resume of putting the citizens in their proper places is progressive then yes we are truly fisted in the ass and gaped with no chance in hell
Now do Trump.
Trump: He's also evil and I'm not voting for him either.
Shit take
You are laughably misinformed.
Cop city? How the hell are you managing to make your mental stretch that wide that you include local Atlanta issues to criticize president biden?
Biden during the last election said he would try to get the police under control and he ran on a green platform
cops getting a whole city built for them so they can train to keep citizens subjugated while razing a national forest to do so with Biden not saying or even trying to do anything not even making it a talking point during speeches this current election
not to mention this current policing and the current environmental issues that need attention in this country are in part due to bills he had a hand in such as the crime bill
so yes him as president and before that as a career politician do criticize Biden
I have never whole heartedly supported the Democratic candidate (because I'm far more left than any of them have ever been), but I've always voted for them, because they're far better than the other option. This time they're just so far better than the other option, not because they are any better, but because the other option is so astoundingly worse. So, I guess, welcome to the club.
But I will say, Biden has been more progressive than any other candidate in my lifetime. Again, that's not saying much, but hey, it's better than nothing. He's just killing himself by supporting Israel.
(Repost of my comment from the same article in another community.)
The opinions of Biden seem to be all over the map, which is weird since he is the incumbent, and we all ought to know where he stands. There are lots of people (like you) who see the progressive things he has managed to get accomplished, even with a divided Congress in these past two years. Yet, there are others who perceive him as a right-of-center false choice.
He has always had trouble defining himself, which I think is part of the reason he was a perennial Presidential Primary loser. His stutter didn't help matters, nor his tendency to go off-script. But Trump's ascendancy gave him the perfect opportunity to create a definition, even if that definition is "Not Trump".
There is also a great deal of negative press out regarding Biden. Honestly if you look at policy and accomplishments he's done quite a lot of good things. It is an uphill battle of course with Congress and the Supreme Court being what they are. We are a big country and it takes constant action to push it to a more equitable place for the majority of us.
Frankly, I think Biden has done a lot to start that push. It will take a lot more though and we could backslide terribly if we don't keep pushing.
I love how you all ignore all the terrible policy this man voted for as a senator.
Well I guess maybe people change with maturity. He is certainly putting some good people into positions where they can do some good
Yeah I'm sure that comes as a huge comfort to the millions of people who's lives he ruined with his 1994 stop and frisk crime bill.
So offer a solution. Who has a chance that’s currently in the running to beat Trump in November?
Provide a name or walk away.
No I'm going to keep making it clear anybody who voted for Joe Biden in the 2020 primaries over the many superior options is a shit bag.
As I expected. NONE of you have ever provided a solution when asked, therefore it’s pretty easy to tell why you’re actually here.
You’re not fooling anyone.
We did provide a solution in 2020. Multiple. They were all rejected. It is not our responsibility to find a solution to a problem we didn't create.
How about you ask the people who voted for Joe Biden in the 2020 primaries what their plan is to get people to vote for him? If you're any indication the strategy is the same as always. "More finger wagging like the useless geriatrics we are!"
You talk a lot and still manage to say so little. What an amazing feat of… irrelevance.
You had NO solution in 2020. And you’re repeating the same tired shit this year. And like 2020, you’re going to disappear when the election is over and go back to arguing about video games.
NONE of you seem to have any solutions of what to do between the elections and only surface ever four years like a leap year but with ignorant catch phrases.
So you’ll understand when I say I don’t care if you forgive me for assuming your bad faith intentions here aren’t worthy of being taken seriously.
What the fuck are you talking about? The solution in the 2020 primaries was "don't vote for the procorporate establishment trash candidate". You all didn't like that plan so here we are.
So we’re cool to bring up the past as a rebuttal to a thing someone has done in the present?
You shit your pants when you were a baby. Should we accuse you of this every day for the rest of your life?
We also used to prescribe cigarettes to asthmatic patients. Wonder why we don’t anymore ?
It’s because we learned to be better at understanding the human body. Essentially… We got smarter. But reading though your comment history- you seem to be regressing, because it seems that every point you bring up is worse than the last.
... I'm sorry. Do you use this defense when you're talking about Trump or are you just a blatant hypocrite?
Biden is an evil person. Trump is an evil person. You shouldn't defend either of them.
Bernie's friend Biden is fucking awesome dude. Love the guy! Bernie likes Biden and I've never once noticed Bernie to be wrong about anything. The more you slander Biden the more I like Biden.
in that case: here's bernie calling out biden's bullshit
I use this defense when I see people bring up one’s past to put them back down after they’ve changed.
I use this defense when bad faith clowns try and shit on people in rehab who are trying to turn their lives around.
I use this defense whenever I see people that don’t know what they’re talking about, try and paint eh world as either black or white without even looking at the grey in between.
Your move, chuckles.
Biden hasn't changed. He's the same vile evil man he's always been.
Move along. You have nothing of value to add here.
You're the one defending a genocide supporting trash of a human being and refusing to hold them accountable.
And you’re the one who couldn’t answer a simple question when asked:
Who’d you put in his place that’s running with a chance to win?
You’d rather clown about and pretend to be outraged over something you didn’t even know was a thing prior to last October. We’ve all see you before. Every four years. We’re used to this shit as it’s never anything new.
I don’t take you seriously.
You're intentionally ignoring why I have no solution at this point. Because all other solutions have been eliminated. That's how you people work. You trash and undermine our every attempt at change and then when they're all defeated and we start saying we're not motivated to vote you play this fucking game like it wasn't you fighting us every step of the way.
Like when he was one of the few senators to vote against he first Iraq War in 1993?
This is on purpose. Building confidence is hard. Destroying it is easy. Plenty of domestic and foreign actors are heavily invested in mudding Waters surrounding biden. In hopes of him failing. Their candidates getting elected. Which is turning out even easier for them seeing as our corporate publicly traded media is eagerly assisting them.
The fascists will fall in line and vote for whoever they're offered. Simply because they've been told the opposite would be worse. Unfortunately the Democratic party is much more a coalition party of many disparate groups many who don't see a lot of representation. Preferring to fall in love rather than falling in line. And they are Their Own Worst Enemy because of that.
And even though it's a low bar. If I didn't Administration has delivered some of the biggest wins for labor in the last 100 years. He certainly not perfect. But the alternatives are absolutely worse. The question is are we going to be able to get our s*** together and not let ourselves be manipulated again.
And that's okay.
It's really not, because a lot of left of center voters just won't bother to vote for someone they don't like.
Then frankly, they are idiots. Any foolish “protest vote” come November is just helping Trump.
I never said they were rational. I'm saying they matter. Calling them idiots does nothing to keep Trump out of power.
Maybe 2024 is the year people realize you can't shame voters to the polls. 2016 should've been the year that lesson was learned, but alas, here we are.
i'm convinced that there are permanent blind spots that all societies have and this is the american blind spot.
i also wonder if it spells our demise as a society as well.
The protest vote is the one cast against something, exactly like democrats are gonna do in November,
We aren't "protesting" anything. We are safeguarding America's longstanding core values of democracy and the rule of law.
Thats cute
We don't value democracy and the rule of law because they are "cute". We value them because countries that don't have them are a nightmare to live in.
The party that sues to keep 3rd parties off the ballot, is a private corporation that can select their own candidates, and gives voters no choice but their hand selected candidate is the party of democracy?
You want the Republicans and Democrats to be public corporations? The Democratic charter has specified since the 1950's that voters chose the candidates.
And the DNC argued in court they are a private corporation that is not bound to follow their own bylaws.
Nope. A lawyer argued to win his court case that the DNC could legally CHANGE their own bylaws to abolish primaries. Which is technically true. The RNC can also do that due to the lack of government regulation.
You are wrong
They are voting for Jill Stein and the worm guy anyway.
With no aspirations toward better than "okay".
Didn't know I could conjure up a new candidate just by aspiring to it.
I was referring to the party's aspirations. They have none beyond "ok."
If you're a progressive, Biden has been the most progressive president since Kennedy. Lol.
If you're not. Are you willing to have American democracy end, because you personally weren't courted by the president?
Knowing EC, it's very much the latter. In fact I suspect you should expect to be called a genocide supporter by them. Since you have dared not say something horrible about Biden.
What's EC? Electoral College?
Forget Gaza for a second, what is progressive about KOSA?. What is progressive about getting rid of the ability to claim asylum?. What is progressive about labeling peaceful protests as against the law?
Biden may be better than Trump, but don't dare say he is more progressive that Kennedy - or even Obama.
Not the flex you think it is
LBJ was more progressive than Biden, and he took office after whom?
That's up for debate. For me, he's the most liberal since Kennedy but if you think it's LBJ instead, that's fine too!
Oh, he's certainly the most liberal since Kennedy. But he's not progressive except in the slogans of centrists.
I think that's a no true Scotsman kind of thing. Biden has done plenty of progressive policies. He's forgiven billions in student loan debt (and wanted to forgive more but R courts are political), he's passed infrastructure, and he's also passed some bills to keep the cost of medicine down.
Could he do more? Sure. If voters showed up at the midterms and gave him a D house, he could have done more. But they didn't.
Way too often, people let perfect be the enemy of good. Biden is good, not perfect.
Using a program signed into law by George W Bush. Does that mean Bush was also a progressive?
Biden passed comprehensive student loan forgiveness, and it was struck down by the supreme court for bullshit reasons. He's using the mechanisms of government that he can control.
Or did you forget that part?
No I didn't forget. But that's not what you were talking about. You were talking about the student loans forgiven during Biden's term. That's being done under the PSLF program signed into law by G.W. Bush in 2007.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Service_Loan_Forgiveness
If forgiving loans under this program is one reason to call Biden a progressive then the same would apply to Bush.
So I'll ask you again, was Bush also a progressive?
And you ignored my part of the conversation. He DID pass comprehensive student loan debt relief. Republicans used lawfare to halt the program.
Does that not count?
This was part of your conversation. You're just deflecting because you had no idea what the PSLF program was or how it came to be.
And no I don't give participation trophies to presidents. Especially when I suspect they wanted it to fail in the first place.
If Democrats had used the majorities we gave them during his first two years instead of getting in their own way, this would be a convincing argument.
They did use them as best they could. They were hamstrung by a filibustering Senate, and two conservative Democrat senators (Sinema and Manchin) who refused to support getting rid of it, making killing the proposition of killing the filibuster DOA. As a result, their only choice to pass legislation was budget reconciliation, which aren't subject to filibuster. The issue is that reconciliation has several big limits:
The bill has to be related to government spending, revenue, and the debt ceiling. You can't toss in things like minimum wage increases or voting rights legislation.
You can only pass one of these bills per year (theoretically you can do more, but additional reconciliation bills have to go through the budgrt committee and with a 50/50 senate the GOP can just skip those meetings to deny quorum and keep it stuck)
Whatever passes still has to get at least 50 votes, which means either appeasing Manchin/Sinema or getting Republican votes (which ain't gonna happen)
And despite that, we still got the CHIPS act, an infrastructure bill, and the Inflation Reduction Act, which--even with Manchinema throwing as many grenades in the process as they could get away with--was the biggest climate change bill in our country's history. Not perfect, no, but a sizable step in the right direction, for once.
That's what I mean by getting in their own way.
Biden had numerous accomplishments from his first 2 years, lol.
That's completely disingenuous.
That's why I said Democrats and not Biden.
When you take the first step on, say, a hike, do you have no aspirations to take another and another?
Or would you say... well, this first step is too hard... I'm just gonna lie down and take a nap?
Where is all this "incremental progress" you centerists always talk about? Is it in the room with us now?
Undoubtedly you have the privilege not to notice it.
Billionaires are richer than ever. Housing is more expensive than ever. Food is more expensive than ever. Healthcare is more expensive than ever. Education is more expensive than ever. The planet is hotter than ever.
Are you referring to the pretty rainbow flags that McDonald's hangs once a year? Or the BLM posters in the middle of a gated community with all white residents?
Go on. Tell me about this incremental progress.
I can be out and not fear for my life. I can even marry. My partner now only rarely gets "gook" or "chink" yelled at them.
99.8% of the time when this stuff comes out of folks it's because they are white and heterosexual and usually male.
For people secure in their white, hetero-normative privilege it's understandable that they only care about things that affect them... and there isn't all that much that affects them directly. But the truth is this is a VERY different world here in the US than when I was growing up. It's now a world that despite the noise from the MAGA crowd I can exist comfortably and securely as opposed to having to hide in a closet.
Whenever I have this discussion with folks who aren't gay or trans or BIPOC, it never occurs to them that there is a difference. Universally it turns out that since they aren't affected by these huge cultural shifts, they also don't look at the changes that make life easier for other groups. The simple fact that federal workers now have a $15 minimum wage means that a number of my peers now are not starving working for public lands agencies. That a number of labor laws have been enacted (including recently the non-compete thing) that makes discrimination against protected groups doesn't affect people like you because you are not typically discriminated against. In some cases the pandemic relief for you folks was just a nice bonus to spend on luxuries, not groceries. The grants for schools didn't matter because if you have kids they go to nice schools already.
I'm not going to argue with you - it's impossible. But please understand that your incredibly narrow view of the world is not shared by those who have experienced this seismic shift over the last 2-3 decades.
Ok. You're telling me this is incremental progress because what you've gained is worth more than everything else that's gotten worse. Fine. I'll accept that in the context of this conversation.
How much more expensive does housing, education, healthcare and food have to get before we can focus on it? How hot does the planet have to get before we can focus on it?
When do we stop focusing on a specific experience someone has because of their race, gender or whatever else because the overall experience of everyone has gotten so bad we need to address it?
Nice. I can't even see your goal posts any more. You went from "there has been NO progress" to "well there has only been progress that matters to you". Despite the fact that I literally pointed out instances where things have gotten better for many groups of people.
Bye now.
I said there has been no incremental progress and I stand by that because personally setting what you've described against higher housing costs, education, food and healthcare along with rising temperatures means we are all worse off including you.
Don't confuse my willingness to set aside my own personal perspectives as moving the goal posts. Us arguing over who's right there isn't going to result in anything productive and you know it. So I set aside my personal perspectives and asked you to expand on yours.
Your response suggests you've never actually thought about it.
Thanks to everybody who didn't vote Dem.
Not for people who have Obamacare vs before Obamacare.
How many people do you think had $400 monthly premiums for individual plans back in 2007?
Every single person who had a preexisting health condition. If they could get insurance at all that is.
That's what the party did with the public option and increasing the minimum wage.
So because you didn't get everything you want you are just gonna stamp your feet, take you ball and go home?
That’s EXACTLY what they do. Every four years. The Bernie bros did the same thing in 2016, and again in 2020. And these clowns think they’re pulling some new grassroots movement. They have no idea that they’re already considered to be non voters.
They’re doing nothing. And by that I mean, they’re doing a LOT more nothing than even they think they are. Their little “protest” is completely meaningless.
Unless their intent is to get trump elected, and for some- this is the case.
A greater percentage of Sanders supporters voted for Clinton than Clinton supporters voted for Obama. Clinton supporters formed a PAC to get McCain elected.
Since they can be safely ignored, why aren't you ignoring them?
Why do centrists pretend that those to their left are all the way to their right?
Because they are. Both are trying to get Trump elected. On purpose or not.
Convenient that people to your left are trying to get trump elected simply by disagreeing with you.
Where do centrists keep getting this?
People to your left are allowed to be dissatisfied even when you get everything you want.
Yeah this "you're throwing a tantrum because you didn't get everything you wanted" is rich coming from the people who got Joe Biden elected in the 2020 primaries. It's pure projection on their part. They would throw a tantrum if they didn't get everything they wanted. The moment progressives start dominating primaries these people will stop showing up to vote in the general election.
It's pure ego. They've built their personality around being "the good guys" compared to Republicans so when someone comes along and says "we need to do more" it's a crisis for them. They can't let anyone accomplish more than they did because it would force them to admit they became complacent.
Democrat voting Boomers are still Boomers at the end of the day. Selfish pieces of shit.
How do you know that? I voted Bernie and I think you're throwing a tantrum.
I voted Bernie. Not throwing a tantrum. I'm thrilled that Biden is the most progressive president since LBJ if not FDR.
What should they be doing instead?
Getting used to being disappointed.
As opposed to last time, when I voted for Biden to stop trump
As far as I'm concerned we only have one legitimate party at the moment and that's the one I'm going to vote for.
But, even though Biden isn't nearly as progressive as I'd like, he still beats the brakes off of any other democratic president we've had other than Jimmy Carter, so I wouldn't say he's doing a bad job per se.
If he were running against a "rational" Republican I'd still vote for him, so I wouldn't say I'm motivated solely by my hatred for Trump.
Biden, DNC, establishment Democrats and Boomer Democrat voters: Okay guys we need to figure out who to elevate in the 2028 Republican primaries who's just as vile as Trump so those uppity leftists will have to keep voting for our pro-corporate asses.
Not a single Dem has that power nor would have wished a GOP candidate as bad for America as Convicted Felon and Sex Offender Treason Trump.
I'm not expecting anyone as vile as Convicted Felon and Sex Offender Treason Trump although the GOP does have a knack for continually disappointing America with their bad candidates.
Corporations must be super mad at "pro-corporate" Joe Biden for raising the minimum corporate tax rate from 0% to 15% even though tax rates are the single thing that matter above all else.
The indispensible prerequisite for moving the Overton window to the left is for the GOP to lose elections. And leftist who doesn't understand that will automatically transform themselves into a perpetual Loser.
Factually false.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/11/hillary-clinton-2016-donald-trump-214428/
Factually true.
Regardless about what some random idiot reporter said 8 years ago, (1) no Dem has any powers to select a GOP nominee and (2) Dems aren't responsible for how terrible the RNC's nominees are .
Learn about the electoral college. We're literally forced into this 2 party choice.
And nobody alive today created this. We all inherited it, just like you. It's just the reality and if you don't recognize that you are condemning yourself to be a lifetime loser.
Yes which Boomer Democrats exploit in the primaries.
So why can't leftists organize and overpower the boomer dems in the primary?
Because decades of being marginalized by Boomers have left generations after them trained to think their participation has no effect. Which is precisely the intention. You're happy it works right up until the point where we don't vote for your geriatric genocide supporting procorporate trash of a human being in the general election.
Yeah, I'm quite upset you would abstain and let a fascist walk in, sure. That is fair.
But you're deliberately avoiding the question. If leftists are so numerous and their views so popular, WHY CAN THEY NOT OVERPOWER THE BOOMER DEMS?
Face it- you do the same shit everyone else does. You cry and whine because you didn't get your way and you stop all effort. You didn't get every damn thing you wanted (besides student loans forgiven, medicare insulin capped, biggest climate bill ever, a president walking in a picket line, etc.) so it's time to give up? It's time to abstain because of genocide knowing the other actual choice would be FAR WORSE for Palestine (let alone everything else)? But hey, at least go go gadget would get to be all haughty and on their high horse saying "my conscience is clear" while everything gets worse.
Maybe be in it for the long haul and be the change you want to see. Again- if leftists are so numerous they should have no problem pulling AOCs all over the place and changing the landscape dramatically. The right can do it so why can't the left?
Again, I'm not upset you have morals and want to end the genocide in Palestine, etc. I do too. I want better healthcare (either nationalized, single payer, some universal with public/private a la Germany, etc.), I want better social safety nets, guaranteed parental leave, etc. I think a lot do.
I'm upset that people like you bitch and moan all the goddamn time and act as if you're so marginalized and so victimized that you not only abstain yourself but convince others to do the same, or don't vote in primaries, or don't volunteer, etc.
You need to face up to the facts- either leftist/progressive voters are NOT as numerous as you all think and you get represented precisely how much you should be given how big the tent has to be in a FPTP system or leftist/progressive voters are numerous and are simply extremely apathetic where they can't be bothered to turn out for someone that isn't basically their knight in shining armor. In which case, again, they get represented EXACTLY how much they should because they are lazy and flakey and not worth anyone's time courting.
I don't want to beat people down but I'm tired of people acting as if there is a huge groundswell of support. Study after study and election after election show that the issue is exactly as I described in the previous paragraph. Either show up and be counted or continue to whine when things don't go your way.
Because America isn't a progressive country, progressive ideas are not popular, and outside of the Internet most Americans are perfectly happy with the heinous and stupid bullshit their government does as long as the news is full of SLAMS and DEMOLISHING opponents
And I say that as a progressive who's shown up and been counted in every election for the last 24 years.
Thank you for saying this.
Team Red put in serious effort to drag this country hard right. They can taste victory in the air and have YUGE plans for remaking this country into the Authoritarian Right-Wing Dictatorship they've been craving since Bush's years. Fuck 50 years of Republican rule. They want a Permanent Republican Majority (for at LEAST 20 years), and they'll tear down Democracy (because that has to have something to do with Democrats, am I right) to get it.
If the Right functioned like the Left did, the Republicans would be locked out of the political system at the first hint of adversity. But they didn't, because the Right-Wing Shitheads' answer to RINOs was to organise and work to push them out of office in favour of hard-right ideologues. Vote for the Conservative in the Primary and the Republican in the General. That's their motto.
Right-Wing Shitheads win when people like go_go_gadget convince our voters they should sit home because they didn't get exactly what they want. It's all hands on deck to stop a naked Fascist takeover of the country, and we need to be calling the idiots on our side out whenever they push these memes that the best answer to feckless politicians on our side is to take your ball and go home.
To all of you saying stay home or vote third party, this is exactly how the country keeps shifting Right.
I haven't been staying at home or voting third party and that doesn't seem to be working either.
It is. Really, it is. Just look at what Trump did to everything you supposedly care about from 2017 through 2020. I said in 2020 that had we elected Hillary Clinton POTUS, we'd at least not have backslid as hard as we did from 2017 to 2020. But people had to express their displeasure at Hillary, and stayed home or voted Third Party, and from 2017 until 2020, they got what they voted for, hard, without lube.
It's the same thing now in 2024. Biden HAS made concrete gains in areas I'm interested in, ranging from investing in green energy, pushing for domestic chip production, and standing up for minority rights in all areas. Trump plans on reversing all of that and then some with his Project 2025. Stay home and get Project 2025.
Which is why I treat voting as an obligation and not have any hope for the future. Because when it works it still looks like shit, doesn't seem to do anything, and a bunch of assholes can throw a wrench in the works and then we get even more shit.
I'm still gonna vote because I live here and I have to. But I really don't think it's the way you get anything done.
No it keeps shifting right because Moderate Democrat voters and Establishment Democrats sabotage any and all efforts to move it left.
Make up your mind. If you didn't need us to win the 2020 general election you don't need us in 2024.
Student loan forgiveness was rejected by the supreme court. All the loan forgiveness you're seeing is the result of the PSLF program signed by G.W. Bush in 2007. Are you trying to give Biden credit for something Bush did?
Boomers got what they wanted. Yay.
Sure. This isn't nothing. However you should compare what's in the IRA compared to what was in the BBB. The BBB is what Biden and Bernie worked on together. The BBB did not pass. This was a very disappointing outcome.
Fucking bread crumbs. Biden blocked the rail strike. The rail workers were fighting for 15 sick days. Some have 7. Most have less than that. Some sound byte by an IBEW administrative worker doesn't change that. Our votes are worth more than that.
You don't get to define what is "everything we wanted". Biden does not deserve our votes. Our votes are worth more than what he's done. If you don't like it find someone else to vote for your procorporate trash candidate.
Okay Ivan. You are speaking for yourself and nobody else, unless its Putin. He damn well deserves our votes. But if you hate that he raised taxes on corporations which is what they hate the most, then you aren't one of us.
they never made such a claim. in fact, all the evidence is that dems don't care if leftists vote at all.
Since Dems are leftwing all the evidence is the exact opposite of your claim.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/19/politics/barack-obama-speech-transcript/index.html
Obama in 2020: This president [Trump] and those in power – those who benefit from keeping things the way they are – they are counting on your cynicism. They know they can’t win you over with their policies. So they’re hoping to make it as hard as possible for you to vote, and to convince you that your vote doesn’t matter. That’s how they win. That’s how they get to keep making decisions that affect your life, and the lives of the people you love. That’s how the economy will keep getting skewed to the wealthy and well-connected, how our health systems will let more people fall through the cracks. That’s how a democracy withers, until it’s no democracy at all. We can’t let that happen. Do not let them take away your power. Don’t let them take away your democracy. Make a plan right now for how you’re going to get involved and vote. Do it as early as you can and tell your family and friends how they can vote too.
barrack "I'll kill you at a wedding" Obama, barrack "I lied about closing gitmo" Obama, barrack "expand the surveillance state Obama is not going to tell me what to do.
this is also not evidence that Democrats even know where the left is.
when you get me a democrat that wants to close the prisons and the banks and end the institution of private property and the state, I will vote for them.
At this point, you're asking for a communist. Good luck trying to get that going in the states.
And you're asking us to elect procorporate trash.
No.
I would also accept a libertarian socialist. liberals aren't leftists, though, and Democrats are liberal at best. some are much worse.
That's on you and nobody else. It's incredibly stupid for people to think your participation has no effect. Dems typically beg people to participate in every primary and election and the GOP typically hopes few people participate.
What a pathetic deflection away from the fact that Democrat boomers are still boomers and vote like the selfish pieces of shit they are.
yes, we understand that you don't like boomers.
Not me. I’m motivated on making sure myself and all my loved ones get to continue to vote. Stopping Trump and voting for Biden just so happen to line up for that.
Exactly. "Voting for Biden just to stop trump" is a pretty meaningless statement.
At this point, I would say nearly all of them are, but then again, at this point- that’s all the reason one needs.
This is a DIRE situation we are in. It needs to be taken seriously.
in every single election cycle, it's always been that red maga falls in line while blue maga shames everyone into voting for a guy that is 99% same as the red maga guy, but, of course, that naturally doesn't work; if you look at people's behavior now, compared to before, the situation appears the same because everyone's doing the same thing.
if the situation were truly dire; then people would behave accordingly; but they're not.
That's a completely false assumption.
[How they made Germany great again: The Nazi social media campaign of 1932]
https://www.salon.com/2018/03/31/how-they-made-germany-great-again-the-nazi-social-media-campaign-of-1932/
Biden said he's going to be a dictator for 99% of day one?
ROFL.
.ml.
One day the USA will get a president that has more to offer than not being his opponent.
No they won't, their lesser evil bullshit will keep creating a progressively larger evil. So there will always be a boogeyman to sell.
What if Trump loses and runs in 2028?
If Trump gets a sound thrashing, losing the Republicans seats in the process, the rats will flee the sinking ship.
Like increasing the minimum tax on corporations from 0% to 15% while needing 2 Dem senators who later left the party for being too leftwing?
And that day is upon you now.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/priorities/
I know I am. I mean it it's not like I would vote for any Republican because I have yet to see one that lines up with my philosophy. And since we have a shitty to party system, I can't reasonably expect to be able to have a voice by voting for anybody else, so I have no choice but to compromise by voting for the lesser of two bastards. We seriously need ranked voting in this country so badly. It's not a perfect system, but it's so much better than what we're doing now.
Of course. He'd never win if not for the alternative being a fascist convicted of multiple kinds of fraud.
Hell, he almost didn't the first time around and that was WITHOUT being a willing participant in numerous crimes against humanity!
Im not American but doesnt everyone usually vote to keep the worst out not the best one in?
Kinda... mostly because the best ones never become candidates. The parties push the candidates that serve the interests of the partys donors then try to convince the voters they actually care.
Most elections are a choice between two mediocre candidates.
With the current state of the Republican party, it's truly about getting more of them out of power. Unless you're a white Christofascist bootlicker.
I used to mainly vote third party as a protest vote for both sides to do better. Didn't matter the party, really.
I voted for Obama out of genuinely wanting him in office. I thought he was decent overall but he did disappoint me.
I voted for Biden purely to keep Trump out of office. Even so, I think Biden has largely been a better President than Obama was, though the Gaza/Israel thing is really testing that. I would love to have a more progressive choice, but any time I am disappointed in Biden, I just remind myself the alternative and I would crawl across a mile of broken glass to vote for him.
So I would anecdotally say this election is outside the norm.
If you mean "unique in 240 years of American history" I agree.
as will be the next, and the one after that, as well as all of the ones following; meanwhile you'll continue crawling over broken glass and giving a pass to ongoing genocides because you believe it's better than the alternative somehow without realizing there's one alternative.
no one knows the right answer, but there are plenty of wrong answers and 2 of those have been placed before and you're told that you must select one.
Told? It's just math. If you want to change things, you have to either do it from within an existing party or wait for an existing party to implode and then maybe there is an opportunity for change.
I'm fifty. I spent a lot of fucking elections wasting my vote on third parties, thinking I was sending some kind of message or making things better, but here we are. I wasted every single vote prior to 2008. Would anything be different if I hadn't? No. Would anything be different if a bunch of people hadn't? I don't know. Maybe.
as i said before: no one knows the right answer, but there are plenty of wrong answers, we know they're wrong because we've tried them and things don't get better (and we sometimes try it again with the same results); we're only allowed to pick from among those wrong answers only.
trying anything otherwise might also be a wrong answer; but we will never know because there are plenty who will shame you if don't pick the same wrong answer they do.
Fair. Government is hard. There is no such thing as a right answer. Just shit that we find out later didn't work. I'm not happy with either of the two parties; I don't really believe in parties anyway. But here we are.
Fight the good fight, my friend, but just don't let fascism take us. My grandfather fought against the fascists in WW2, and here I am doing the same (though admittedly with way less personal risk) 80 years later. I don't like it, but it is what it is.
I worry that it's the new baseline.
New baseline?! I have often gotten the feeling that you are an adolescent. It would explain so many of the shitty hot takes and bad ideas. But this really kind of solidifies it. Being young is not an insult however. We all were at one point in time. And we all matured and grew up.
This is so not a new thing though. Trump is literally Reagan part 2. And that's just within the last 50 years that's not even mentioning Nixon or all the others that came before him. The truth is this is been the way it has always been. It sucks that so much of the energy of youth is wasted tilting at windmills. Instead of actually understanding and working to improve things. Actively demotivating non Republican voters in an effort to get the Republican candidate to win. That sounds like a real good way to improve things.
As someone who lived through the Reagan administrations, Trump is far, far worse than Reagan part 2.
Granted there are similarities such as Reagan ignoring AIDS and Trump ignoring Covid, but at the same time, Reagan was far more likeable while committing actual war crimes in the Iran/Contra affair, and having the CIA dealing cocaine.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_involvement_in_Contra_cocaine_trafficking
40% of voting-eligible Americans simply don’t vote at all.
I mean Boomer Democrat voters could sit down and ask themselves "Is voting for a geriatric establishment white man really the move in the 2020 primaries if we want those "young" (read: anyone under the age of 65) voters to engage in politics"
But they won't because even though they vote Democrat they're still Boomers. And Boomers can't handle not getting their way.
If you have a non proportional system where parties don't make coalitions, there's no other choice (unless you live in a region where a specific party always wins with a majority of the votes, then do what you want).
Wasn't the case with Obama, as one easy example
Well, millennials voted for Obama because he genuinely inspired hope. Then we saw how he governed and it killed our entire generation's sense of hope.
Then you saw Biden being a better president than Obama because he was more experienced. Maybe the answer here is to pay more attention to what a politician does than what he says
LOL, if that were answer, then Biden would be judged on the anti-drug legislation he spearheaded in '84, '86, and '88 that gave us expanded sentences for possession, civil asset forfeiture, and the racist sentencing disparity between crack and powdered cocaine. He'd also be judged on the 1994 crime bill he co-authored that led to the largest increase in mass incarceration in 40 years. Oh, and let's not forget the time he teamed up with Robert Byrd, a Senator and Klansman, to pass anti-bussing legislation. Point is, Biden has benefited a lot from people listening to what he says and forgetting what he's done.
You mean forgetting that Biden has the lowest unemployment rate since the 1960's? Forgetting that he raised the minimum tax rate on corporations from 0% to 15%? Forgetting that that every few days there is a record stock market high? That nobody could have handled Covid or Ukraine better?
Biden is the victim of a lot of people forgetting what he's done.
I don't think you understand my point. You made a comment about how I should judge politicians on their actions, not their words. So I pointed out that Biden's actions before his election included anti-bussing legislation, several racist drug bills, and the worst expansion of the prison-industrial complex in history. I'm glad you're happy with Biden's performance as President, but you clearly ignored a lot of what he did as a Senator and listened to what he said as a presidential candidate (or you really like racist drug policies and mass incarceration).
I couldn't care less what Biden did in the 1970's. It is ridiculous to call him "racist", as he was the running mate of the first black president.
Your original comment:
Your current comment:
Maybe the answer here is to not leave condescending replies to other people's comments if you're just going to completely contradict yourself and negate your own point.
Dude what a politicians does NOW matters a hell of a lot more than what they did 50 years ago lol.
And Biden being the VP of the first black president 100% negates him being against forced busing in the 1970's. And everybody was against force busing in the 1970's. It was a stupid policy then.
Do you understand how insanely incoherent what you're saying is? You're saying that my mistake in voting for Obama was that I listened to what he said instead of paying attention to what he did. But I should only pay attention to what a politician doing NOW, not what they've done in the past. So I shouldn't just listen to what they say they'll do in the future, but I can't judge them based on what they've done in the past...so how am I supposed to pick a candidate? Use psychic powers to know what they're going to do in the future?!?!?!
Like, I could keep arguing about Biden; you're ignoring 20 additional years of racist legislation I brought up, and I didn't even get to his support for the Iraq War...but I don't even care about that. Explain how the hell your philosophy of ignoring what a candidate says and watching what they do while ignoring what they've done makes any kind of sense.
Yes. Now as in current term of office. Not 50 years ago. Biden's rejected of forced busing 50 years ago does not have the slightest relevance to anything he does as president. Do you not understand how much political climates change in a huge way over 1/2 of a century?
You mean when Biden was one of the very few senators who voted against the first Iraq was in 1993?
If you are complaining about something Biden did in the 1970's, it's just because you are on some ridiculous anti-Biden kick. Everybody knows it doesn't have the slightest relevance to his presidential terms.
Watch what Biden has done as president. He's been the most progressive president since FDR. Pretty simple.
OK, you're very clearly just avoiding all the things I say that you don't want to hear, and honestly, this feels like I'm just punching down now, so I'm just gonna stop. Good luck buddy.
Not true at all. Some of them are actively trying to get the worst one in.
I generally like Biden and I’m still more motivated by voting against trump. I’m amazed on a daily basis how many ignorant school shooter wannabes roam around here chanting fantasies without any basis in reality convincing themselves that they aren’t culpable if they don’t accept reality.
this is every election since ive been old enough to vote in them
Yes. Please do be motivated by stopping Trump!
And especially don't be demotivated to go voting because you don't like the alternative.
I honestly wonder what I'd do if a non-maga candidate replaced trump. Not vote for them, but I might vote for a third party at that point. Unless something changes, it wouldn't much matter; my voter registration is in a place that is very comfortably red so I'm not going to be able to change that.
You can still affect local elections, which arguably will have a greater impact on your day to day life anyway.
I vote for whom I want in the primaries and yeah for the locals as well
Boomer Democrat voters in the 2020 primaries: That's cute you think you have a voice. We've already chosen a geriatric establishment white man.
I live in a similar red area and democrats need to come back here for the local change to happen. More than half of local seats only have a Republican option. There are almost as many Libertarians running as democrats. The democrats gave up on way too many rural areas.
Trump isn't much different than any generic Republican. Bush was far worse than him.
Didn’t you say you were never going to post here again after accusing the mods of being Zionist genocide supporters?
Just curious.
Remind me again why Ozma was banned from here
So, did you set a specific date for when you’re going to leave this community like you said you would? Because I know if I thought the mods were…. “Genocide supporting zionists”, I wouldn’t feel comfortable supporting their community with content for any longer than I had to.
A community that only gets to see one view of the world is the one that most needs factual correction.
Why does reddit r/conservative ban anyone that opposes their viewpoints? They want to keep the echo chamber going.
So you lied. interesting that lies should come from someone that’s banned for misinformation so often.
Who’d have thought it could happen.
Where was the lie?
You said you weren’t going to post here anymore because the mods were “Zionist genocide supporters.”
Two lies there.
One: You’re still posting here.
Two: The mods are definitely not Zionist genocide supporters.
If you lack the strength of conviction it takes to simply restrain from backing up your own words of protest, how can anyone take what you say seriously? Add in the fact that a lot of what you say is complete misinformation….
LMFAO. Bush was terrible. Convicted Felon and Sex Offender Treason Trump has been rated the worst president in history by historians. Biden was ranked the 14th best BTW
https://www.axios.com/2024/02/19/presidents-survey-trump-ranks-last-biden-14th
Damn Trump didn't lie about WMD's in Iraq killing >1 million people but he's a convicted sex offender! That's so much worse!
Treason Trump supports War Criminal Putin whose killed many millions in Ukraine. Bush was terrible too but historians rank Convicted Felon and Rapist Treason Trump as the absolute worst for his neofascist attacks on democracy and the rule of law and Treason Trump will still be ranked dead last 50 years from now and 100 years from now.
How sad is it when being a certified rapist is not even Treason Trump's worst crime?
I'm just done "trusting" Republicans in general. Romney seems to be the only one left that has a moral compass (that doesn't just point to "Nazi Jesus"). Even then I don't believe he'd give a damn about the poorest among us as long as he could point to record stock prices and low unemployment.
Water is wet.
The electoral college is the electoral college
I mean...no shit?
Only the best current reason. When frump is out of the picture for good we can focus on other things
Also it is no reflection at all on Biden that he happens to be running against the person whom historians have ranked as the worst president in American history. Biden is ranks as 14th best president out of 46.
https://www.axios.com/2024/02/19/presidents-survey-trump-ranks-last-biden-14th
James Buchanan fans everywhere are overjoyed
You think it will be any better then?
Cant say. Nobody can read the future for good or bad. I just prefer to be optimistic rather than not. All i can say is that the current choices are all there is and, as always, the lesser of two evils is what we have to work with
there hasn't been an election where it wasn't choosing the least bad person.
I think as candidates Clinton, W. Bush, Gore, Obama, McCain had sincere support overshadowing the need to stop some particular bad person instead. As misguided as I think it is, Trump voters also are all about Trump less than stopping Biden. I can't personally remember a race where "the other side must be stopped" as pretty much the sole consideration among the voters until the Trump era.
Yes, third party candidates are dismissed in a self fulfilling prophecy, but also that reality drives most reasonable would-be third party candidates to one of the viable parties, generally leaving third party candidates that wouldn't be that popular anyway.
Joe Biden was better and more progressive than literally every one of those guys. It's not Biden's fault that you haven't been paying much attention.
I can't personally remember a president who has achieved more progress than Joe Biden, and I can remember every president starting with Nixon.
Note I didn't claim the were progressive or that Biden did nothing, I'm saying voter sentiment is basically "not trump" rather than "for Biden". I'll accept that Kerry was in a similar position of being the "not W" candidate, but other than that I can't think of a candidate whose popular support was so much more about "the other guy" than the candidate themselves.
WTF? Dude it is not Bidens fault that Convicted Felon and Sex Offender Treason Trump has been ranked as the worst president in history by historians. That means there are lots of "Biden Republicans". But Dems would be voting for Biden over any Republicrat.
As long as you don't see Palestinians/Arabs as people, I agree.
You mean the people that Biden got the UN Security Council to pass a cease fire resolution for?
Arabs are the people who aren't doing shit for Gaza. How Egypt/Lebanon/Turkey etc aren't taking in refuges from Gaza and shipping tons of aid in or even offering peacekeepers? Any or all of those countries could have easily done more than Biden but they didn't lift a finger. Looks like Arabs don't care anything at all about Palestinians judging by their actions.
The Kerry '04 campaign might as well have been "Anyone But Bush", and it went down in flames as a result. Every time Kerry was pressed on any kind of progressive-ish sounding issue, he ran to the right for fear of spooking the moderate centrist voter. Every time Bush was pressed on his conservative bona fides, he just pointed to 9/11 and said "I kept us safe" and the news media ate that shit up.
In the end, you had the Strong MAGA Security candidate in Bush and the flaky swish liberal candidate in Kerry. Kerry lost by 3M votes and 35 ECs, dwarfing the Bush/Gore defeat. Then he slunk back to the Senate and triangulated votes with John McCain for the next eight years.
I was genuinely excited for Obama. I strongly supported him during the primary, was thrilled he won, and was very hopeful when he was elected.
Quickly disappointed not long after, but at least when he was first being elected it was definitely a "I really like this candidate and am hopeful they'll live up to their promises."
Obama's first go around felt pretty legit.
Well it worked the first time around...
"A majority of voters backing Biden are mostly motivated by the greatest threat America and the western world has ever faced."
Biden has done so much fucking shit for the average american (which is saying something thanks to the Do Nothing fascists)
First US president to join the union workers ON THE PICKET LINE In many ways we have handled this world-wide inflation shit better than any other in the G7 nations Unemployment numbers are at record lows, .01 lower than any other time in the past 10 years at one point in january and april of last year and since then has only risen around 0.3-4 points, removed healthcare related debt from credit scores
I could go on and on, but instead, others have already done so for me (and these aren't even super recent):
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2024-opinion-biden-accomplishment-data/
https://www.whitehouse.gov/oneyear/
https://www.npr.org/2023/01/01/1143149435/despite-infighting-its-been-a-surprisingly-productive-2-years-for-democrats
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/02/02/joe-biden-30-policy-things-you-might-have-missed-00139046
Him joining a picket line for a photo op is kinda cancelled out by signing that bill that blocked the rail workers from striking.
Cancelled out? I remember when I was 14 and everything seemed simple.
Biden is fucking awesome. The more progressive president since LBJ if not FDR.
No kidding? Lol
Biden is not my favorite, but it’s that or fascism.
Thanks Democrats. Hopefully you risking everything to stroke this dudes ego doesn't give the Republicans control forever. Exact same shit as 2016. I have no choice but to vote for Biden. I wonder whom the democratic party will pick next, probably Mayor Pete, and it'll then be another vote for Pete to save democracy.
Only reason he won the primary in 2020. Idealists don't do well against fascists but moderates are inoffensive enough to
It's a dangerous game, as Biden's not bringing anything to the table on his own. Hillary lost in 2016 with a 10-pt plunge in support, because of the Comey October Surprise. Biden could easily suffer the same fate, if his lackluster supporters get spooked a few weeks before the general election.
You mean, besides besides being the most progressive president since LBJ?
That’s a low bar. LBJ was racist,
LBJ was the president who got the most important civil right bill passed. Biden was the most progressive president since LBJ and FDR.
The Emancipation Proclamation was kinda important.
Yes it was. Did you not realize that Lincoln came before FDR?
does repeating this lie help you believe it?
LMFAO. I believe that Biden was the most progressive president since LBJ because I have been paying attention to politics since Nixon was in office. I can remember the end of the Vietnam War, and the minute details of every administration since. Which particular president do you think was better than Biden?
how do you not remember biden's anti-gay votes or his anti-gay, anti-me2, pro-studentloandebt, or pro-isreal advocacy; like most boomers do?
was it because none of that affects you or is it because you're willfully ignoring the last few decades to make his presidency look better in your eyes?
or is it simply because trump is so bad that the alternative is automatically good enough?
How did you not know that Biden has done way more to nullify student loan debt than every other president?
How did you not know that Biden got a Gaza cease fire passed by the US security council?
The president does not vote against anything. I said Biden is the most progressive PRESIDENT.
How can you not know that Biden has been more progressive on me2 or lgbtq THAN ANY OTHER PRESIDENT?
Well we know that Convicted Sec Offender Treason Trump was ranked worst of all presidents by historians. So a house plant would be better than Treason Trump. But doesn't change the fact that Biden has been the most progressive president in the last 50 years.
he literally use to brag about getting the bill that created our student loan debt problem passed the senate.
also: he's been in federal politics for over 50 years; but we can only judge him for 3 of them?
ysk that cherry picked 3 years has been hit and miss at best.
He is literally the one and only president out of 46 president to cancel student loan debt.
I judge President Biden compared to the previous 50 years of US presidents and the neofascist alternative waging war on democracy and the rule of law.
Aye, this is me
Honest motives
I mean, yeah.
Duh
Yes, Democrats know this and are taking the opportunity to move to the right.
I'm okay with that.
Anything but trump. Next term I do expect Biden to really kick around hard as hell gave nothing to lose, kick Israeli govt to the curb, kick the right-wing extremist religious out of the government, that sort of thing
You know what my main problem with Joe Biden is? I'm 37, he's what? 79? I've been a citizen of the United States longer than he has. He's spent the last three generations in either congress or the white house, and the people who do that don't live in the same reality as the rest of us. Too many of the laws outright don't apply to them, either because there are literal exceptions or "we don't enforce that on them." Joe Biden doesn't know the first fucking thing about being an American because he hasn't ever actually done it.
His family struggled a lot when he grew up in a blue collar town, moved so his dad could find steady work, but still were definitely middle class. Then he worked his way through college and law school.
We can say his decades in Congress and the presidency have corrupted him, but the idea that he hasn't ever actually been "a real American" (the way you are using it) is an outright lie.
You know who hasn't? The billionaire who was born with a silver spoon in their mouth, schooled with other wealthy people in NYC, then was gifted a huge amount of to start, and then spent their entire career screwing the blue collar worker to line his own pockets.
If Biden has never been a "real American," then how do we describe Trump's lack of real Americaness?
"You think Hitler's bad, what do you call Satan?!?! Checkmate!"
Yes, that was clearly my argument. Good reading comprehension there and not some mindless kneejerk "muh both sides" response.
lmao his family "suffered" because his father was a fraudster that tried to get rich on scamming the US government during the war. The stories about his blue-collar roots are as real as Kim Jong Un inventing pizza.
And I'm going to listen to your baseless accusation and ignore Bernie Sander's crystal clarity? lmfao.
Bernie Sanders: Trump is the most corrupt president in our lifetimes
https://x.com/BernieSanders/status/1274442823190937602
Holy shit the propaganda is real.
He's not Putin's choice? He gave billionaires a tax increase instead of tax cut?
You mean despite being the only US Senator who rode the bus to work every day?
Joe Biden knows way more about being an American than you seem to.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2024/06/07/remarks-by-president-biden-on-democracy-and-freedom-normandy-france/
[Remarks by President Biden on Democracy and Freedom | Normandy, France]
Which specific law does not apply to Joe Biden? You simply made that up. His son was just found guilty on a charge that almost no other person in America would even be charged with.
Biden
a Catholic president with a prosecutor for a vice president
the last four years have consisted of abortion rights being stripped, Cop City built to train police to subjugate citizens by razing a national forest, workers protested and were told to stop on threat of their livelihood with no change in worker's rights or higher wages, immigration policies have deteriorated, food cost are astronomical and inflation is rising on everything without stopping, journalism is dying due to corporate buyout with journalist being silenced
but Biden who is a career politician going on almost half a century now who is running against a career donor is progressive
when was he ever progressive? what about Harris? have either of these two been progressive at any point in their careers?
Biden worked on laws and policies that would put people in jail and Harris worked her career enforcing such laws
If a Catholic and a Prosecutor with a resume of putting the citizens in their proper places is progressive then yes we are truly fisted in the ass and gaped with no chance in hell
Now do Trump.
Trump: He's also evil and I'm not voting for him either.
Shit take
You are laughably misinformed.
Cop city? How the hell are you managing to make your mental stretch that wide that you include local Atlanta issues to criticize president biden?
Biden during the last election said he would try to get the police under control and he ran on a green platform
cops getting a whole city built for them so they can train to keep citizens subjugated while razing a national forest to do so with Biden not saying or even trying to do anything not even making it a talking point during speeches this current election
not to mention this current policing and the current environmental issues that need attention in this country are in part due to bills he had a hand in such as the crime bill
so yes him as president and before that as a career politician do criticize Biden
Atlanta is 1 of nearly 100 cop cities being built. All of which will be trained by the IDF
and that is why we the people will lose this election as well
we either stop supporting bad candidates from any party or we get stuck with them
why the fuck does any want four years of Trump or Biden is wild
Both are too old and both are set on taking us way back in time
already lost women's rights and worker's rights
how much do y'all want to lose?
guess we will see in the next four years what we get to lose next already getting to the point crossing state borders is difficult
what state border is difficult to cross, honest question
I guess Alaska. Or hawaii. Lol