I had a buddy, and we talked in great detail about this. I chase challenges, and am always looking for the next big puzzle to muddle my way through. He chased freedom. He just wanted to be who he was and spend his time how he wanted.
My point is people are motivated by different things. Find your thing and pursue it. Don't worry what anyone else is doing. You don't answer to them, and they're not any happier than you.
Living your authenticity is fulfilling.
The caveat is don't conflate freedom/motivation with being a dick. Live the life that you want to live, but if that involves disparaging certain demographics for ethically and/or morally wrong reasons, then maybe live a better life than the one you really want to live. This doesn't apply to most people, but there are some out there that should read it and take it to heart.
Yeah I'm a bit of both. When I'm working, I always want the next challenge. When I'm at home, I'm quite content to just cease to exist
Mate, I'd definitely prefer loose leaf tea but can't be arsed with the extra hassle
There are dozens of us
Dozens!
I think so anyway. I haven't checked.
As long as you feel you want to avoid responsibilities, please do so in a responsible way. Use condoms every time, and don't get involved with a person who wants children. Be a good support-player at work so your manager doesn't have to be a bitch (they still might, in which case support your coworkers). And contribute in low-effort ways like donating an occasional pint of blood if you're eligible, or offering to put someone else's cart away at the grocery store. Just being a decent person is enough.
There are a ton of negative comments on here, but i think the reality is: people value different things.
When you have certain values you will sacrifice certain things to practice those values/achieve those goals.
Some people value charity work because helping the community and people makes them feel good--even if it's more work on their plate.
Some people sacrifice their personal lives to achieve a career goal. Sometimes that's for financial reasons, sometimes that's for ego reasons, sometimes it's "meeting a challenge".
Some people will sacrifice their career to have less stress or focus on their family. Some people value their hobbies, relationships, personal interests to the point where they'll pick jobs that let them focus on those things--even if those jobs don't pay as well, even if they aren't "progressing" up the ladder.
And for what it's worth, your values (may) shift over time. I never wanted kids for the longest time. Then I did.
I valued career progression for ego and financial reasons--and now, that's shifted.
I sacrificed spending time with my friends when I had my kid, but now I am putting a lot of effort into those friendships because I value them and that requires work. That means I didn't take a job offer that would have paid more, so I would have time for my family and friends.
I value those things more at this point.
I value my time playing computer games, so I sacrifice my sleep so I can do that. :)
Some people are like dogs: they want to be useful & helpful.
Some people are like cats: they want to sleep 16 hours a day & meow loudly at 3am.
Some of us like to poop in the sand box as well.
If you're in the sand box, does it count as a blumpkin? Or is it toilet specific.
I now have a new thing to add to my bucket list.
They aren't thinking of it in terms of increasing responsibility. That is the cost of the decisions they are making, but it's not the benefit. Each of the things you mentioned have clear benefits (pay raise, biological drive, altruism). They are simply making decisions about when the benefits outweigh the costs.
I became a manager because I worked with shitty managers who sit on their ass and promote their friends. I wanted to change that.
I take on harder projects than my peers because I can handle it. It's easier for me to deal with the stress, than give it to a teammate who would absolutely struggle and lose 4 weekends trying to solve it.
I became a parent because I worked in the school system and taught kids without good families. I used to stay after school just to give these kids a positive influence before they get sent back to their shitty home.
I absolutely do not think about the stress of the added work, but instead focus on the results of my actions (or the results if I don't do it).
I became a parent because I worked in the school system and taught kids without good families. I used to stay after school just to give these kids a positive influence before they get sent back to their shitty home.
Don't take this as criticism, just trying to understand: What's the logic here? As a teacher without kids (for now), I feel like I'd have more to give to help my pupils if I don't have kids of my own.
Regardless, thank you both for the work that you do.
Thanks for doing what you do.
And I can see the confusion. I grew up in the ghetto, I also wasn't raised in a good environment. I have children and I'm in the process of adopting as well.
I am the same and find that life is enough for me as it is. I'm also on the spectrum so it's easier to not burden myself unnecessarily.
My ADHD plays a huge part in the opposite direction. I have had hundreds of different hobbies or interests. Each hold my attention for a while and then I rotate to the next.
What I have learned to do is make hobbies or projects interrelated and each supports the next. CAD work supports my 3D printing, which supports all the rest, as an example. Tools purchased need to have multiple uses and other supplies the same. Essentially, I have constructed a huge feedback loop for my natural tendency to bounce around.
While that stuff keeps me busy, I am learning to simplify the rest of my life, so that is nice.
Wow. I think you just resolved some minor trauma for me. My mother used to berate (and sometimes beat) me for "never finishing things", as in I'd be really interested in something and then lost interest. It drove her up the wall, but since I was a kid all I heard was "stop being interested in everything".
I got dx'd with ADHD at 35. Slowly, and thanks to comments like yours, I'm making sense of my brain and learning to be kind to myself
I was diagnosed early, but didn't start treatment until my 30's. Basically, I had some really unfounded perceptions of the condition and how amphetamines worked. Whoo boy, was I wrong!
But yeah, it's hard not to use the condition as a crutch or an excuse. It's a legitimate condition, no doubt, but the trick is trying to learn ways to leverage it as a positive. (TBH, this only works in some cases, not all.)
The biggest challenge for me is trying to communicate how I think and operate to others. Processes that work for normal humans simply do not work for me. This poses some massive challenges in my career, for sure. By the same token, the way I think gives me unique advantages in problem solving. (I am in IT Security by trade where thinking differently is almost a requirement.)
Man, I wish I had heard this decades ago. Most of my hobbies are entirely unconnected except building guitars then playing them. I have a garage full of woodworking stuff that's only for that, a garage full of tools for working on motorcycles that don't overlap, a bunch of tools for cooking outdoors, a room full of entirely unconnected gear for playing pool, rock climbing, a shelf full of tabletop games, gardening equipment, fishing gear, and equipment to make a beverage that is illegal for me to make at both the federal and state level.
You have a good system.
Those sound like some pretty cool hobbies tbh.
They're all a lot of fun. The only ones I have kept up with long term are building and playing guitars, cooking outdoors, and working on motorcycles. The rest were passing fancies.
Can you give some more examples please?
Not op, but I love making interesting furniture and light fixtures. It's a combination of wood working, pretty lights, microcontrollers, open source projects, and stuff that normies fucking love, like epoxy desks. I always have a handful of projects at various states of completion and whenever I get bored of one I bounce to another until I finish and then just pick something from my yuge list of stuff I wanna build and keep going.
Exactly! Compared to what neurotypical people are capable of, I truly do feel disabled in some ways. However, as long as I can continue to support myself and my partner until we both die, I’ll be good without all the extra bullshit and responsibilities.
We've been tricked into thinking either that hard work pays off or this specific hard work thing will pay off. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. But all the time it leads to more work.
My expert psychoanalysis of your entire personality based on a one sentence post is either you're happy where you are, or you're afraid of change.
i consider to some degree, actively avoiding responsibility as a form of responsibility.
For instance, if you know that you can't be a good parent, then don't. Some people just have different priorities, and if yours are simply enjoying life, then fuck it.
Perhaps they value different things in life. Everyone is not the same, what works for you won't work for everyone. There are people who enjoy having responsibility. Having children, being a manager and doing charity work feels fulfilling to them.
Until they say they are over their head and start complaining they have no free time in a very negative tone to all of their childless/non managerial friends and guilt tripping on how they should do the same. “When are you having kids?”
Do childless, non-managerial people have no complaints in life? Most things aren't perfect. It doesn't mean they're not also fulfilling.
On the other hand, some people just like to complain. The comment you're making just lacks some nuance.
You should talk.
You shouldn't
I know these types. There's nothing stopping them from having the kids babysat or to take a day off, but they'd rather be able to hit people over the head with the victim complex even though they put themselves into their position knowingly and without hesitation.
Half the people I work with have kids and, if you complain about anything at all around them, they always have some way to minimize it and one up you. Got three hours of sleep? Well, with their kids, they only sleep 30 minutes a night on a bed of nails under a running stream of volcanic temp water. Starving because work is crazy, you haven't eaten all day, and it's 7pm? With their kids busy schedules, they only eat once a fortnight, on the toilet, crying into they're meal which only consists of bread crusts their kids didn't want. Like, sorry, I forgot I'm not allowed to suffer around you people because you made a life decision that requires extra effort on a daily basis.
Because people find fulfillment in different things.
Hello, someone who went to a manager position here! I'm 100% with you, decreasing responsibility means decreasing stress and so is always a priority! However, there are a few reasons one might shoot for the moon anyway.
Ambition. This is the obvious one, some people just want more. More money, more power, more prestige. That is a valid reason to push further but isn't for everyone.
Empathy. Yep you read that right! Ambition isn't the only driving force to take on more responsibility. Empathy can lead people to see the ways to improve others' lives, workloads, and more!
Accidents. Especially with children but also in other areas, accidents happen and can often leave people with more on their shoulders than expected.
I personally am mostly number 2. I saw the terrible leadership that my team has had in the past and the ways I could assist my team to improve. I knew all the complaints and had ideas to fix them so I took the responsibility bullet so they don't have to.
I hope this helps you see into the mind of someone who accepts responsibility, even if it means more stress and less freedom!
Empathy. Yep you read that right! Ambition isn’t the only driving force to take on more responsibility. Empathy can lead people to see the ways to improve others’ lives, workloads, and more!
I actually really resonate with that one. I pretty much ended up in the psudo-managment position I'm in because I kept seeing ways to improve life for those around me and it required me getting more and more involved in things outside of my specific role. It got to the point that I became the "go to" guy and ended up with a bunch of responsibilities, but at least the work is a little easier for those I work with directly on the factory floor and a few people in the office as well.
i got a masters,tried to climb the corporate ladder only to realise,i prefer the quiet life,less responsibility and less stress.
i didn't want to be a corporate high flyer after trying to. some people will never know until they try and some couldn't get out because they went with the flow and got stuck.
This. I'm currently a CTO. Planning my next move to be a developer, not management of any kind.
If you find some spare time.
I would love to know how you rose to that position and what the work was like.
Sincerely,
A developer who feels the upper rungs on the ladder is a good way to make meaningful change
Same boat. I’m currently a software engineer. Colleagues have joked in the past that I’ll make my way as a manager or something, but the reality is that I’m more than fine remaining in this position the rest of my career. I’m fortunate enough that I’m fine with the money I make. I’m fine with my responsibilities, including the flexibility I have with my time. Not to mention that I enjoy doing actual development type work.
It would have to be a significant amount of money for me to even think about accepting any management roles.
I would entertain a lead type role (lead software engineer or principal software engineer, etc), but management personally is off the table.
IDK why people become managers, either, when the pay often isn't reflected in the increased responsibility. Plenty of jobs I had, the managers got paid the same minimum wage as everyone below them, while having to do a lot more work. I have no problem with the responsibility, as long as I'm properly compensated for it.
Not too disagree with you, or argue, but in my field your experience is not how it is here. You have to go into management of you want to make more money, and while the work is different, I'm not sure it's harder
In my experience, at first managing is always harder than doing it yourself, because you're usually put in charge of managing people who do what you used to do.
Have you ever been in a situation where you've had to do something at work, but you were hamstrung by your tools or timelines? Like, oh man this would be way easier in Python but you are only approved for MS office, so you have to struggle through some VBA. Or man, I could whip this together super fast in Ruby but for some reason this has to be in plain JavaScript. Or maybe you could make this really well, but not in the two day turnaround they need. All that is frustrating, but you usually find a way to perform given these imperfect scenarios.
Now, imagine VBA has feelings. You can't even really complain about VBA, because it's not malicious. It's just bad at its job. So now instead of quickly coding a workaround in a new language (but you learn fast so not the end of the world), you have to help someone get there and do it on their own. And you can't just do it for them because you have 4 VBAs. Oh, and by the way, JavaScript is malicious. It's actively trying to avoid work, or maybe trying to make VBA look bad. So now you have to convince JavaScript that it's in its best interest to work. Sometimes its a carrot, sometimes a stick, but you're responsible for getting functionality out, and it's more functionality than you could possibly create on your own.
That's what managing people is like. A deep desire to do it yourself because it will be better and faster, but you don't have time, and also you need these people to be better. So you have to learn to teach instead of do, and support emotionally and intellectually and motivate instead of just bitching to your manager when someone else isn't getting their work done and it's affecting your work - now you're responsible for getting their work to be good. It's really hard, and some people who were amazing achievers and doers can't hack it when they have to help other people achieve and do. It's why you have so many bad manager stories. The skillsets are nearly completely different.
The nice part though is when you get good enough at managing that you start managing people that do things you can't do, or do things better than you ever could. Suddenly there's some whiz kid straight out of college who knows more about data science from their degree than you did your whole career actuallydoing it, and all they really need help with is applying it. Then you start helping with vision and the "why" of things. "Yes, you could do it that way, but remember our actual end goal is X, so that's all we really care about." Or you help people work together to make a cohesive whole. That's when managing gets really rewarding. It can still be harder than doing, or it might be easier if you're a big picture thinker, but it gets different eventually.
Here have my virtual 🏅🏅🏅🏅
This is only true of "team lead" type managers.
Get more skills and experience. Get promoted. Produce more value. Get paid more. Repeat.
Some people become managers because they like having control over people.
And those are the people you need to avoid being managed by.
At least for me, it's because it was the only way to get a raise in my position.
In my industry, the difference between manager and new hire is double.
For other industries, it's a big sadder. When I worked in a restaurant in college, the manager made $2 more. They also got some perks that I didn't. And I absolutely did not want their job.
So I can totally understand that perspective.
But, being a manager for a year or two gives you that title that when you jump jobs, it's def a salary bump.
For me I knew being a manager would be much harder, but my passion is mentoring others and watching them grow.
Because for many people maturing into an adult means taking on and fulfilling responsibilities. It gives many people meaning and satisfaction, often not at the individual moment, but over the course of a life.
Others don't feel that way.
A third category think they don't feel that way, but realize too late that they do.
interesting how you only see the third category going one way
Interesting that it bothered you enough to comment on it.
I've worked in hospice care in the past. I'm sure there are people that regret taking on responsibility in their life, but the most desperate people I encountered were the ones that realized that they are at the end of their life and realized that they will never have the opportunity to "finally" take on challenges and/or responsibility.
Imagine a panic attack that doesn't go away because the time you have left is measured in days, weeks, or maybe months, you know it, and there is nothing you can do to address a lifetime of regret, which intensifies the panic.
Usually the best that can be done at that point is "comfort care," which is drugs. And I would just see them cry, fade, cry, fade, cry, fade, and then die alone. It's horrifying to see, and it sticks with you.
Life isn't a movie or game, and no one is the main character.
Yeah, experiencing that is a horror I wouldn't wish on anyone. That's a true nightmare.
I don't think having kids of my own is in my future, I hope I can live my life with enough intent and purpose to avoid this date.
Thank you both for this thread, it's gotten me thinking.
The ability to “strive” is a learned skill that needs to be honed over years. It’s not really natural to most people — it’s easy to fall into a low-energy state and want to stay there because it’s comfortable. It takes practice and energy putting yourself out there and putting an effort into making more of your life.
If you’re happy with who you are and what you’re doing, then I’m not going to neg on your life. But are you going to spend the next ~50 years just gliding along, and not creating or building any value for yourself in this world (and that doesn’t have to be monetary value — building a family, and building up your community through volunteer works build value as well)? When you’re in the twilight of your life, do you want to look back and find you did nothing of significance with your life?
Maybe that doesn’t bother you. That’s fine. Just so long as 15 years from now you’re not some bitter middle-aged person complaining about people in the upper-middle class who get to do things you don’t get to do and who have more money and nice things that you do.
But none of that would be for me. So I put in the work, learned how to strive for the life I wanted, and got a graduate degree, built a beautiful family, got that management job (and the pay that goes with it), and spend my spare time volunteering (currently) with three different organizations. It’s a busy life and take a lot of time and energy — but it allows me to have people around me who love me, with the money to do and own nice things together, and to give back to my community to make it a better place. And when my time eventually comes, I’ll have hopefully left this world a little better off for the effort.
Maybe that doesn’t bother you. That’s fine. Just so long as 15 years from now you’re not some bitter middle-aged person complaining about people in the upper-middle class who get to do things you don’t get to do and who have more money and nice things that you do.
Statistically speaking, single people with no kids usually have more disposable income.
Meh. Your value as a human isn't tied to your accomplishments (be it having a family or getting a high paying job) or productivity.
This whole thing of "striving as a honed skill" sounds like hustling culture and capitalist brainwashing. In fact, I would say it takes more skill to actually be content with your life and not feel the constant need to strive to be someone better or do something more.
You seem to think that unless you've done something, you're worthless.
It seems that according to your view, a homeless person without a family is completely worthless.
That's a pretty unfair characterization. He called out multiple times how it's fine for the other guy if that's what he wants, but that it's not his own specific wants. And his central thesis is fine: coasting is fine as long as you're going to be ok with where you coast to. If you want to be somewhere else then coasting is not fine - but it's up to you where you want to go.
I pretty specifically called out striving to create things like family or helping improve your community through volunteer works — which isn’t “capitalism” at all.
Each of us can always be someone better and do something more. That isn’t a bad thing.
You end by trying to put words in my mouth. I never said anything about the worth of anyone over anyone else. Striving for the betterment of oneself, one’s loved ones, and one’s community is a good thing — but the antithesis of that isn’t that doing none of those things makes you worthless. That’s something you came up with, not me.
There as a time when you were very young that tying your shoes was impossible for you. For a time, your parents tied your shoes for you. Then you learned how, with difficulty, to do it yourself. Within a short time you mastered it and you don't even think about it now. You simply benefit from having tied shoes without having to ask anyone. Somewhere out there is a person that doesn't know how to tie their own shoes asking why people learned to do so for themselves, where you have that answer for yourself.
Others around you see benefits to raising children, the challenge and pay of rising in job role, or the noble contribution of doing charity work bettering others/society. For you, you don't see any of the benefits to yourself that come from those thing. Yet those other people learned to tie their shoes themselves too. You are like them in that they had the desire to better themselves in that small way because you all saw a benefit.
It sounds like the question before you is to examine your life, decide if there is anything you want in it that you don't have, and work a path to getting that. The one further thing I would recommend is don't just look at your life as it is now at age 30. Imagine your life at 35,40, 50, 65, and 80. With the versions of yourself at those ages be satisfied with the person you are today with what you know and have? Will you, at some distant year, be sad that you passed on an opportunity to have something else in your life you don't have today? If so, its up to you, today, to make the choices that will eventually make you into the person you want to be for that distant age.
Only you can answer this question and there is no wrong answer as long as you are true to yourself and have properly explored yourself and the world to properly answer this question.
Pretty sure he’s asking for a reason. The reason you learn to tie your shoes are obvious; time savings and independence.
The reason you learn to tie your shoes are obvious; time savings and independence.
For some the reasons to have children, do charity work, or climb the corporate ladder are obvious.
Pretty sure he’s asking for a reason.
The reason is: that person wants that thing and the amount of work to do it is worth the reward to that person, just like learning to tie shoes is to you and me.
Thanks
@humbletightband essentially it's because more responsibility leads to more power.
Specifically, people are interested in having more power over outcomes eg avoiding hunger, discomfort, loneliness etc.
Edit: I don't mean this in a bad or selfish way, though reading back over it I can see how it could come across like that. I'm talking about having more agency and control over aspects of life for yourself and others.
That includes, say, helping with humanitarian causes.
Do you think society would get to the point it is if everyone just wanted more power for selfish reasons?
I think it's more to do with the feeling of fulfillment that comes with responsabilities. Helping people feels good, even when you get nothing in return. Unless you expect something in return, then we're playing a different game.
But your outlook on life seems pretty bleak my friend.
I don't think it's necessarily bleak or selfish though, it might just be overly succinct. Sure, you can look at it as wanting power purely for selfish reasons, but I think they just boiled it down to the most basic aspect of "more responsibilities = more power = the ability to do more". You can use it however you want, hopefully altruistically, but at the end of the day a pure altruist who is well connected person with unlimited financial resources can help a lot more people than if they were broke and destitute on the edge of starvation.
maybe, but i see quite a few similar reactions in this thread that make me wanna leave this place. its just slowly starting to sink in for me that lemmy is a lefty echo chamber and its basically the same 20 posts rehashed every week by people with worldviews like this.
how tf can anyone expect to change anything without hope.
Idk man, im just dumping my thoughts but i think im gonna get the hell off this platform and anything similar because it's not having a positive effect on me.
That's not just Lemmy, it's all of social media that isn't focused on people's self-promotion (Instagram, LinkedIn etc). The leftist stuff is fairly accurate, but that's not a big deal to me.
Social media algorithms have driven the content engagement, and they figured out that controversy and anger drives the most engagement, so that's what the algorithms tend to push to drive engagement, to get more ad revenue and data from people spending more time on their platforms.
@RaoulDook I don't think we have that kind of algorithm here, thankfully.
The person you're replying to fundamentally misunderstood my comment though.
@wathek I'm really bummed out that my comment made you want to leave!!
@skyspydude1 is right, I was just trying to point out to OP that the old saying "with power comes responsibility" actually cuts both ways and taking on more responsibility gives many people more agency and control over their lives.
how tf can anyone expect to change anything without hope.
I'm still kind of reeling here because I was trying to be encouraging not despairing. I think maybe the word "power" might have some negative connotation for you?
Cards on the table, I think the old Christian binary between altruism (good) and self-interest (bad) does us all a huge disservice. Helping others altruistically and making the world a better place is in our own best interests. We're all humans together.
No i didn't mean it like that, i'm sorry. It's more of a reaction to the general vibe i get off lemmy while im in a period of trying to debug by brain.
I probably misread what you actually meant. Most of lemmy is just frustrated and sad about things we have little control over.
It's more the general thread reminding me of healthy ways of thinking vs the rest of lemmy. your comment just happened to be where i was thinking out loud. sorry ><
@wathek thanks. I think it was a misunderstanding caused by my poor communication.
I'm sorry that's been your experience here. It's been very different for me - I was previously on reddit and saw a lot of negativity and cynicism and despair over there. And outright meanness, shills etc.
Kbin/lemmy has made me feel much more revitalised and optimistic, I contribute way more content here, but also somehow have more free time, and I've become a bit more active in my community and local/national politics IRL as well. I feel like I'm really reconnecting with that side of life.
Unfortunately Lemmy isn't that for you, but I hope you find somewhere that is.
@wathek woah I think we're having a misunderstanding. I don't think it's "selfish" to want to have more power/control over outcomes???
One of the things @humbletightband was asking about was why people volunteer. I was responding to that part as much as anything else in the comment.
Helping people feels good
Yes it does, especially if you actually do help them. That's effecting change though. Stepping up gives you more power to actually change the world for the better, at least for the people you help. That's what I'm getting at.
Specifically, people are interested in having more power over outcomes eg avoiding hunger, discomfort, loneliness etc.
And in many cases we need to acknowledge that this is a good thing. Everyone should be empowered to have more control and more autonomy. The problem is not everyone is afforded that luxury.
@whoisearth yes I meant it as a good thing. Control and power to effect changes we want in the world are good things.
I've had to go back and edit my comment because some people seem to have taken it in a very different spirit to how it was intended.
In short, because people have different values and are motivated by different things.
Doing something that aligns with your values can be deeply fulfilling! Faith, charity, community, financial independence, respect etc.
Note that there isn't anything objectively right or wrong about this, or the things that people value, it just is. You might value solitude and rest.
Head to personalvalu.es for examples of values.
Thank you for the link. That site was really helpful 🙂
If those things don't make you happy then don't do them.
Because you're smart.
Sincerely,
Overworked middle manager
I have to have a job, which means I have to work. If I have to work, I’d prefer it was challenging and stimulating. That doesn’t mean it’s good, but busy and challenged and better than bored and unstimulated for me personally.
Because they want to grow as an individual lol.
Or people just want different things from life.
I don't want to be a manager, but did have lots of kids and went to school to get a 'real' job. I think to some extent people just do things because they need to be done - I wanted a house and family so easiest way to get that was to have kids and work. I like to eat good food, having money and a garden is the easiest way to get that. It's certainly not a power trip, as someone lower down implies. More like a form of greed, if you have to look at it in a negative way. I like having a full house.
Volunteering is incredibly rewarding, even if it adds to my responsibility. Time devoted to a hobby is incredibly rewarding....even if it takes my time.
The reward is worth the sacrifice.
Certainly better use of my time than sitting around watching tv
The reward is worth the sacrifice.
It's funny how some people treat responsibility. It's like they are trying to convince me that brushing teeth is "worth sacrifice". I totally agree and I'll probably need to bring this topic to therapy.
Take having kids, for example. You have kids, but you have to earn a fortune, you have to change pampers and you have to regulate yourself emotionally not to fuck up their psyche. It's not that I don't want to have kids because I don't value kids over these chores, it's just I'm afraid if I don't do these chores, I'll be responsible for their shitty future.
Brushing teeth is totally worth doing, but if I one day don't feel like it - it's not a problem.
Don't let those other parents fool you, we ALL have don't feel like it days. You can just take more of them as the kids get older.
I used to avoid extra responsibilities, and I still don't have kids, and I don't do charity. In the past moving to stressful positions was financially motivated. But my current job as a patient advocate is extremely rewarding to me. It's the first time I felt I had a job that meant something and I am fulfilled by making impact in individual lives. I've had people call me a life-saver, and have had patients shed tears after I was able to help them. Sometimes my job is not so great, and some things are routine and go by thanklessly, but the moments I am able to be a difference motivates me.
This is the first job I've participated and engaged in more than just the basic requirements, because I see what I do and what my colleagues do as meaningful and valuable, beyond making a CEO their paycheck. I go as far in my job to actually reduce GDP I suppose, steering people towards options that are best for them, even if they don't generate direct profits for my company. I feel like a real person here, and that's why I take on more responsibilities. (it also will help me financially in the long run, but that is less of a primary factor for me now)
Different concepts of self, maybe, learned from your childhood.
Perhaps you have a limited mindset: suppose you have a happy, productive day of work/effort, and at the end of the day you are tired; on the following day, do you need to rest and rejuvenate because you worked so hard the prior day, or do you work even harder because your efforts from the prior day give you momentum and confidence to keep going?
Another thing to consider is, where do you get your self validation? So, like, were you raised with an internal focus or an external focus? Do you give your best effort and attention working toward your own approval and satisfaction, or do you work toward the approval of others?
As a kid, was it instilled in you that you were inadequate, lacking, or behind your peers in some way? If so, I expect you will spend the rest of your life feeling that way. And when things happen that contradict that, like even when you donate great job on something, if that doesn't match watch was instilled in you, you experience cognitive dissonance, and your brain literally stops you from counting your successess and strengths, because it's uncomfortable to think of yourself as adequate and complete.
What people want in life often comes from what they experienced themselves previously. You mentioned charity. I've put 13 years of my life into being a scouts group leader, organizimg weekly meetups, many events and multiple scout camps a year. I'm very passionate about this, since I've got so much out of being a scout since I was 7, growing up with a community, that was meaningful and not harsh and punishing as school. I wanted tp give these experience back to the next scout generation. And during my time as scout group leader I could grew even more, making my own life better through helping others. Soon I will shift my focus away from the scouts (currently its too much together with work; also I want kids soon).
I'm not saying, that you need to do this. I just wanted to explain where my motivation comes from. I get a sense of fulfilment and I'm proud of what I've done and I'm proud of the kids, that I saw growing up and now being group leaders themselves.
Finding something, that you are passionate about is very important. It doesn't need to include external responsibilities. Taking responsibility for your own self, like putting in hard work to learn a new skill, can be as fulfilling as the above.
We don't do it for the purpose of increasing responsibility. I mean , I didn't, maybe other people do. I just really wanted a couple little mini monsters following me around.
When I was like 30, I was out hiking and I saw some guy with three little kids, the kids were hopping from rock to rock, and the littlest one ran up past the siblings to hold the dad's hand. It was super cute. My parents were kinda uninterested and afk, so I haven't seen a lot of examples of dads just having fun with their kids.
That little family was inspiring, in the sense that it opened my mind to a new way of thinking, but also in the sense of taking in breath, it felt like I had been holding my breath and finally stopped. I realized I didn't necessarily have to be like them, I could use their bad/mediocre parenting as a "what not to do" list, and still do some of the things that they did that were good. I could go hiking with my kids, I could teach them how to build a campsite out of nothing, or how to build a server, or how to put your thumb on the end of a house so it sprays really far.
Sure it's more responsibility but it's also really fun.
And, tbh, all the nice things in life are even nicer if you can share it with people. That goes double for kids, because they don't know how shitty the world is. You just gotta make sure they understand and appreciate the fun stuff and don't get spoiled.
Do you have anything you care about? I take on volunteer tasks for causes I care about. Other people care about family, their workplace, etc. It just seems like you aren't strongly motivated by anything besides personal comfort?
Everyone values different things. Personally, I'm not quite ready for kids (even though I'm past the age where my parents had kids and some of my friends/colleagues my age have kids, I'm about your age), but I'm ready to take on more at work. I find it rewarding and I can make more money. And although money doesn't create happiness, it buys some dope shit. And not advancing at work just gets boring and repetitive. Ig it's like that urban legend about sharks needing to swim...
Money doesn't create happiness, but it definitely sets up an environment for it to thrive.
Different people find joys in different things (some people get more out of charity than they put in)... and different people have a different capacity for stress and energy.
I don't like it when I don't have some challenges or goals in life, I don't like feeling like I'm just coasting along. I'll try a new sport etc so I have a project, and I do a bit of volunteer work towards getting people involved in sports I do.
I think our culture teaches many of us that a good life means excelling and success in all facets of life. If you win everything, surely you would be happy!
IMO the trick is to realize that you have a budget for your attention and energy. Figure out what matters to you, not what you are supposed to care about. Figure out what future you will be glad you did.
For me, this involved leaning into some responsibilities that bring me joy (family, pets, learning for its own sake, hobbies, etc). It meant not putting as much mental energy into things that I’m supposed to be very concerned about because life reasons, but which are neutral to negative on my actual mental state (get into management, focus on learning job-related or money-making things, size of house/cars/yard, etc).
Don’t get me wrong, I love my job and I work with great people. But at the same time, for a couple years now, I’ve spent more time thinking about upgrades to the pond in my back yard than my career development. And I wouldn’t be writing this if I wasn’t better for it.
Standard disclaimer: we are all different. Somebody who gets genuine fulfillment from hammering away at their career is not necessarily a bad thing.
Cos you're a lazy bastard, like me.
Nothing wrong with it. Fill your time and life however you want.
I dunno man. Would be too much hassle for me. I'm in my 30s and struggle not falling into depression every time I get friend zoned, which happens all the time. Dating sucks. I just want to be loved. Having children, being a manager (especially in my field / NGO where politics is a big part of the job) is just way too stressful.
I'm a greasy overweight diesel tech. Stop saying friend zone. That is an easy way to never get with someone. Get a hobby that you like and learn to talk about it without being a snob.
I won't. I have hobbies. I have hobbies I'm passionate about. If it doesn't click for other people but it does for me but they still don't have a problem with being friends what else should it be called other than friend zone?
Maybe I'm wrong but I think the idea of "friend zone" implies romantic rejection, whereas being actual friends is just a platonic relationship with no romantic aspects. Friend zone is like emotional attachment that is getting in the way of a genuine friendship because of that disparity. It sounds immature to say it if you think of it that way. It's reminiscent of the incels on 4chan for a lot of people too, so that doesn't help. Maybe that will clarify why some people think it's cringey to say 'friend zoned'?
That actually explains it quite good. Thanks!
What you described was not what I tried to say by using the term "friend zone".
Thanks for reading, I've seen this happen in different places now. Some communities use it like you intended, others use it as derogatory. Language be gettin harder by the day
Multiple reasons
We are living beings driven to reproduce, some more than others obviously.
Because that is the cultural plan we are trained to follow. You, like me, probably live in a capitalist society, everything about our existence is for the enrichment of our rulers, so that means the more you and your kids generate, the more there is for our rulers to take from us.
Never let anyone denigrate you as lazy. "Lazy" people are not the ones destroying the planet.
You may be a perfectionist who's so afraid of failure that it currently (rationally or irrationally) outweighs the motivation to succeed by a significant margin. You'd like to do some bigger things in life but you self-sabotage by distracting yourself because the thought of actually doing things is way too scary / stressful.
Armchair therapist much? To me the examples given in the post specifically aren't about success, they're about the things people that do not directly count as success but that do require you to devote at least part of your life to it.
Because they're lost or miserable or searching for purpose and keep trying to find it in external things like career advancement or kids or partners or something.
Because they get a touch of Maslows disease
Doing charity doesn't require increased responsibility. That was an unexpected item on your list.
Note that many pregnancies are unplanned. So you can frame it as a one-off choice, but often the reality is that the choice is a reaction to reality. Having a kid or having an abortion, either of those requires responsibility of some kind. In other words, the responsibility was inevitable.
Finally, depending where you live and how wealthy you are, you might want to plan for retirement. Failure to do could make your life highly stressful in thirty-five years. Taking small actions now is actually a stress reliever for many people. In other words, some actions that increase responsibility actually make life more enjoyable even in the short run and certainly in the medium run.
In my experience, it does. I used to do some charity work for Ukrainian refugees: delivering medicine, helping with warehousing, buying suitcases for those who want to go further. That's not an easy one, and it has hella pressure on you, basically because these people do not have a lot of people who would help them.
Indeed. You've given us an example showing that charity works could involve increased responsibility, but certainly not that it is required.
Can you mention some kinds of charity that dont involve increased responsibility? I would like to help people more but don’t feel I have room in my life for more responsibility rn
Donations are the most obvious and probably the most helpful in established communities
Those people have bought into the grind culture and will probably get burnt out
I had a buddy, and we talked in great detail about this. I chase challenges, and am always looking for the next big puzzle to muddle my way through. He chased freedom. He just wanted to be who he was and spend his time how he wanted.
My point is people are motivated by different things. Find your thing and pursue it. Don't worry what anyone else is doing. You don't answer to them, and they're not any happier than you.
Living your authenticity is fulfilling.
The caveat is don't conflate freedom/motivation with being a dick. Live the life that you want to live, but if that involves disparaging certain demographics for ethically and/or morally wrong reasons, then maybe live a better life than the one you really want to live. This doesn't apply to most people, but there are some out there that should read it and take it to heart.
Yeah I'm a bit of both. When I'm working, I always want the next challenge. When I'm at home, I'm quite content to just cease to exist
Mate, I'd definitely prefer loose leaf tea but can't be arsed with the extra hassle
There are dozens of us
Dozens!
I think so anyway. I haven't checked.
As long as you feel you want to avoid responsibilities, please do so in a responsible way. Use condoms every time, and don't get involved with a person who wants children. Be a good support-player at work so your manager doesn't have to be a bitch (they still might, in which case support your coworkers). And contribute in low-effort ways like donating an occasional pint of blood if you're eligible, or offering to put someone else's cart away at the grocery store. Just being a decent person is enough.
There are a ton of negative comments on here, but i think the reality is: people value different things.
When you have certain values you will sacrifice certain things to practice those values/achieve those goals.
Some people value charity work because helping the community and people makes them feel good--even if it's more work on their plate.
Some people sacrifice their personal lives to achieve a career goal. Sometimes that's for financial reasons, sometimes that's for ego reasons, sometimes it's "meeting a challenge".
Some people will sacrifice their career to have less stress or focus on their family. Some people value their hobbies, relationships, personal interests to the point where they'll pick jobs that let them focus on those things--even if those jobs don't pay as well, even if they aren't "progressing" up the ladder.
And for what it's worth, your values (may) shift over time. I never wanted kids for the longest time. Then I did.
I valued career progression for ego and financial reasons--and now, that's shifted.
I sacrificed spending time with my friends when I had my kid, but now I am putting a lot of effort into those friendships because I value them and that requires work. That means I didn't take a job offer that would have paid more, so I would have time for my family and friends.
I value those things more at this point.
I value my time playing computer games, so I sacrifice my sleep so I can do that. :)
Some people are like dogs: they want to be useful & helpful.
Some people are like cats: they want to sleep 16 hours a day & meow loudly at 3am.
Some of us like to poop in the sand box as well.
If you're in the sand box, does it count as a blumpkin? Or is it toilet specific.
I now have a new thing to add to my bucket list.
They aren't thinking of it in terms of increasing responsibility. That is the cost of the decisions they are making, but it's not the benefit. Each of the things you mentioned have clear benefits (pay raise, biological drive, altruism). They are simply making decisions about when the benefits outweigh the costs.
I became a manager because I worked with shitty managers who sit on their ass and promote their friends. I wanted to change that.
I take on harder projects than my peers because I can handle it. It's easier for me to deal with the stress, than give it to a teammate who would absolutely struggle and lose 4 weekends trying to solve it.
I became a parent because I worked in the school system and taught kids without good families. I used to stay after school just to give these kids a positive influence before they get sent back to their shitty home.
I absolutely do not think about the stress of the added work, but instead focus on the results of my actions (or the results if I don't do it).
Don't take this as criticism, just trying to understand: What's the logic here? As a teacher without kids (for now), I feel like I'd have more to give to help my pupils if I don't have kids of my own.
Regardless, thank you both for the work that you do.
Thanks for doing what you do.
And I can see the confusion. I grew up in the ghetto, I also wasn't raised in a good environment. I have children and I'm in the process of adopting as well.
I am the same and find that life is enough for me as it is. I'm also on the spectrum so it's easier to not burden myself unnecessarily.
My ADHD plays a huge part in the opposite direction. I have had hundreds of different hobbies or interests. Each hold my attention for a while and then I rotate to the next.
What I have learned to do is make hobbies or projects interrelated and each supports the next. CAD work supports my 3D printing, which supports all the rest, as an example. Tools purchased need to have multiple uses and other supplies the same. Essentially, I have constructed a huge feedback loop for my natural tendency to bounce around.
While that stuff keeps me busy, I am learning to simplify the rest of my life, so that is nice.
Wow. I think you just resolved some minor trauma for me. My mother used to berate (and sometimes beat) me for "never finishing things", as in I'd be really interested in something and then lost interest. It drove her up the wall, but since I was a kid all I heard was "stop being interested in everything".
I got dx'd with ADHD at 35. Slowly, and thanks to comments like yours, I'm making sense of my brain and learning to be kind to myself
I was diagnosed early, but didn't start treatment until my 30's. Basically, I had some really unfounded perceptions of the condition and how amphetamines worked. Whoo boy, was I wrong!
But yeah, it's hard not to use the condition as a crutch or an excuse. It's a legitimate condition, no doubt, but the trick is trying to learn ways to leverage it as a positive. (TBH, this only works in some cases, not all.)
The biggest challenge for me is trying to communicate how I think and operate to others. Processes that work for normal humans simply do not work for me. This poses some massive challenges in my career, for sure. By the same token, the way I think gives me unique advantages in problem solving. (I am in IT Security by trade where thinking differently is almost a requirement.)
Man, I wish I had heard this decades ago. Most of my hobbies are entirely unconnected except building guitars then playing them. I have a garage full of woodworking stuff that's only for that, a garage full of tools for working on motorcycles that don't overlap, a bunch of tools for cooking outdoors, a room full of entirely unconnected gear for playing pool, rock climbing, a shelf full of tabletop games, gardening equipment, fishing gear, and equipment to make a beverage that is illegal for me to make at both the federal and state level.
You have a good system.
Those sound like some pretty cool hobbies tbh.
They're all a lot of fun. The only ones I have kept up with long term are building and playing guitars, cooking outdoors, and working on motorcycles. The rest were passing fancies.
Can you give some more examples please?
Not op, but I love making interesting furniture and light fixtures. It's a combination of wood working, pretty lights, microcontrollers, open source projects, and stuff that normies fucking love, like epoxy desks. I always have a handful of projects at various states of completion and whenever I get bored of one I bounce to another until I finish and then just pick something from my yuge list of stuff I wanna build and keep going.
Exactly! Compared to what neurotypical people are capable of, I truly do feel disabled in some ways. However, as long as I can continue to support myself and my partner until we both die, I’ll be good without all the extra bullshit and responsibilities.
We've been tricked into thinking either that hard work pays off or this specific hard work thing will pay off. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. But all the time it leads to more work.
My expert psychoanalysis of your entire personality based on a one sentence post is either you're happy where you are, or you're afraid of change.
i consider to some degree, actively avoiding responsibility as a form of responsibility.
For instance, if you know that you can't be a good parent, then don't. Some people just have different priorities, and if yours are simply enjoying life, then fuck it.
Perhaps they value different things in life. Everyone is not the same, what works for you won't work for everyone. There are people who enjoy having responsibility. Having children, being a manager and doing charity work feels fulfilling to them.
Until they say they are over their head and start complaining they have no free time in a very negative tone to all of their childless/non managerial friends and guilt tripping on how they should do the same. “When are you having kids?”
Do childless, non-managerial people have no complaints in life? Most things aren't perfect. It doesn't mean they're not also fulfilling.
On the other hand, some people just like to complain. The comment you're making just lacks some nuance.
You should talk.
You shouldn't
I know these types. There's nothing stopping them from having the kids babysat or to take a day off, but they'd rather be able to hit people over the head with the victim complex even though they put themselves into their position knowingly and without hesitation.
Half the people I work with have kids and, if you complain about anything at all around them, they always have some way to minimize it and one up you. Got three hours of sleep? Well, with their kids, they only sleep 30 minutes a night on a bed of nails under a running stream of volcanic temp water. Starving because work is crazy, you haven't eaten all day, and it's 7pm? With their kids busy schedules, they only eat once a fortnight, on the toilet, crying into they're meal which only consists of bread crusts their kids didn't want. Like, sorry, I forgot I'm not allowed to suffer around you people because you made a life decision that requires extra effort on a daily basis.
Because people find fulfillment in different things.
Hello, someone who went to a manager position here! I'm 100% with you, decreasing responsibility means decreasing stress and so is always a priority! However, there are a few reasons one might shoot for the moon anyway.
Ambition. This is the obvious one, some people just want more. More money, more power, more prestige. That is a valid reason to push further but isn't for everyone.
Empathy. Yep you read that right! Ambition isn't the only driving force to take on more responsibility. Empathy can lead people to see the ways to improve others' lives, workloads, and more!
Accidents. Especially with children but also in other areas, accidents happen and can often leave people with more on their shoulders than expected.
I personally am mostly number 2. I saw the terrible leadership that my team has had in the past and the ways I could assist my team to improve. I knew all the complaints and had ideas to fix them so I took the responsibility bullet so they don't have to.
I hope this helps you see into the mind of someone who accepts responsibility, even if it means more stress and less freedom!
I actually really resonate with that one. I pretty much ended up in the psudo-managment position I'm in because I kept seeing ways to improve life for those around me and it required me getting more and more involved in things outside of my specific role. It got to the point that I became the "go to" guy and ended up with a bunch of responsibilities, but at least the work is a little easier for those I work with directly on the factory floor and a few people in the office as well.
i got a masters,tried to climb the corporate ladder only to realise,i prefer the quiet life,less responsibility and less stress.
i didn't want to be a corporate high flyer after trying to. some people will never know until they try and some couldn't get out because they went with the flow and got stuck.
This. I'm currently a CTO. Planning my next move to be a developer, not management of any kind.
If you find some spare time.
I would love to know how you rose to that position and what the work was like.
Sincerely, A developer who feels the upper rungs on the ladder is a good way to make meaningful change
Same boat. I’m currently a software engineer. Colleagues have joked in the past that I’ll make my way as a manager or something, but the reality is that I’m more than fine remaining in this position the rest of my career. I’m fortunate enough that I’m fine with the money I make. I’m fine with my responsibilities, including the flexibility I have with my time. Not to mention that I enjoy doing actual development type work.
It would have to be a significant amount of money for me to even think about accepting any management roles.
I would entertain a lead type role (lead software engineer or principal software engineer, etc), but management personally is off the table.
IDK why people become managers, either, when the pay often isn't reflected in the increased responsibility. Plenty of jobs I had, the managers got paid the same minimum wage as everyone below them, while having to do a lot more work. I have no problem with the responsibility, as long as I'm properly compensated for it.
Not too disagree with you, or argue, but in my field your experience is not how it is here. You have to go into management of you want to make more money, and while the work is different, I'm not sure it's harder
In my experience, at first managing is always harder than doing it yourself, because you're usually put in charge of managing people who do what you used to do.
Have you ever been in a situation where you've had to do something at work, but you were hamstrung by your tools or timelines? Like, oh man this would be way easier in Python but you are only approved for MS office, so you have to struggle through some VBA. Or man, I could whip this together super fast in Ruby but for some reason this has to be in plain JavaScript. Or maybe you could make this really well, but not in the two day turnaround they need. All that is frustrating, but you usually find a way to perform given these imperfect scenarios.
Now, imagine VBA has feelings. You can't even really complain about VBA, because it's not malicious. It's just bad at its job. So now instead of quickly coding a workaround in a new language (but you learn fast so not the end of the world), you have to help someone get there and do it on their own. And you can't just do it for them because you have 4 VBAs. Oh, and by the way, JavaScript is malicious. It's actively trying to avoid work, or maybe trying to make VBA look bad. So now you have to convince JavaScript that it's in its best interest to work. Sometimes its a carrot, sometimes a stick, but you're responsible for getting functionality out, and it's more functionality than you could possibly create on your own.
That's what managing people is like. A deep desire to do it yourself because it will be better and faster, but you don't have time, and also you need these people to be better. So you have to learn to teach instead of do, and support emotionally and intellectually and motivate instead of just bitching to your manager when someone else isn't getting their work done and it's affecting your work - now you're responsible for getting their work to be good. It's really hard, and some people who were amazing achievers and doers can't hack it when they have to help other people achieve and do. It's why you have so many bad manager stories. The skillsets are nearly completely different.
The nice part though is when you get good enough at managing that you start managing people that do things you can't do, or do things better than you ever could. Suddenly there's some whiz kid straight out of college who knows more about data science from their degree than you did your whole career actuallydoing it, and all they really need help with is applying it. Then you start helping with vision and the "why" of things. "Yes, you could do it that way, but remember our actual end goal is X, so that's all we really care about." Or you help people work together to make a cohesive whole. That's when managing gets really rewarding. It can still be harder than doing, or it might be easier if you're a big picture thinker, but it gets different eventually.
Here have my virtual 🏅🏅🏅🏅
This is only true of "team lead" type managers.
Get more skills and experience. Get promoted. Produce more value. Get paid more. Repeat.
Some people become managers because they like having control over people.
And those are the people you need to avoid being managed by.
At least for me, it's because it was the only way to get a raise in my position.
In my industry, the difference between manager and new hire is double.
For other industries, it's a big sadder. When I worked in a restaurant in college, the manager made $2 more. They also got some perks that I didn't. And I absolutely did not want their job.
So I can totally understand that perspective.
But, being a manager for a year or two gives you that title that when you jump jobs, it's def a salary bump.
For me I knew being a manager would be much harder, but my passion is mentoring others and watching them grow.
Because for many people maturing into an adult means taking on and fulfilling responsibilities. It gives many people meaning and satisfaction, often not at the individual moment, but over the course of a life.
Others don't feel that way.
A third category think they don't feel that way, but realize too late that they do.
interesting how you only see the third category going one way
Interesting that it bothered you enough to comment on it.
I've worked in hospice care in the past. I'm sure there are people that regret taking on responsibility in their life, but the most desperate people I encountered were the ones that realized that they are at the end of their life and realized that they will never have the opportunity to "finally" take on challenges and/or responsibility.
Imagine a panic attack that doesn't go away because the time you have left is measured in days, weeks, or maybe months, you know it, and there is nothing you can do to address a lifetime of regret, which intensifies the panic.
Usually the best that can be done at that point is "comfort care," which is drugs. And I would just see them cry, fade, cry, fade, cry, fade, and then die alone. It's horrifying to see, and it sticks with you.
Life isn't a movie or game, and no one is the main character.
Yeah, experiencing that is a horror I wouldn't wish on anyone. That's a true nightmare.
I don't think having kids of my own is in my future, I hope I can live my life with enough intent and purpose to avoid this date. Thank you both for this thread, it's gotten me thinking.
The ability to “strive” is a learned skill that needs to be honed over years. It’s not really natural to most people — it’s easy to fall into a low-energy state and want to stay there because it’s comfortable. It takes practice and energy putting yourself out there and putting an effort into making more of your life.
If you’re happy with who you are and what you’re doing, then I’m not going to neg on your life. But are you going to spend the next ~50 years just gliding along, and not creating or building any value for yourself in this world (and that doesn’t have to be monetary value — building a family, and building up your community through volunteer works build value as well)? When you’re in the twilight of your life, do you want to look back and find you did nothing of significance with your life?
Maybe that doesn’t bother you. That’s fine. Just so long as 15 years from now you’re not some bitter middle-aged person complaining about people in the upper-middle class who get to do things you don’t get to do and who have more money and nice things that you do.
But none of that would be for me. So I put in the work, learned how to strive for the life I wanted, and got a graduate degree, built a beautiful family, got that management job (and the pay that goes with it), and spend my spare time volunteering (currently) with three different organizations. It’s a busy life and take a lot of time and energy — but it allows me to have people around me who love me, with the money to do and own nice things together, and to give back to my community to make it a better place. And when my time eventually comes, I’ll have hopefully left this world a little better off for the effort.
Statistically speaking, single people with no kids usually have more disposable income.
Meh. Your value as a human isn't tied to your accomplishments (be it having a family or getting a high paying job) or productivity.
This whole thing of "striving as a honed skill" sounds like hustling culture and capitalist brainwashing. In fact, I would say it takes more skill to actually be content with your life and not feel the constant need to strive to be someone better or do something more.
You seem to think that unless you've done something, you're worthless.
It seems that according to your view, a homeless person without a family is completely worthless.
That's a pretty unfair characterization. He called out multiple times how it's fine for the other guy if that's what he wants, but that it's not his own specific wants. And his central thesis is fine: coasting is fine as long as you're going to be ok with where you coast to. If you want to be somewhere else then coasting is not fine - but it's up to you where you want to go.
I pretty specifically called out striving to create things like family or helping improve your community through volunteer works — which isn’t “capitalism” at all.
Each of us can always be someone better and do something more. That isn’t a bad thing.
You end by trying to put words in my mouth. I never said anything about the worth of anyone over anyone else. Striving for the betterment of oneself, one’s loved ones, and one’s community is a good thing — but the antithesis of that isn’t that doing none of those things makes you worthless. That’s something you came up with, not me.
There as a time when you were very young that tying your shoes was impossible for you. For a time, your parents tied your shoes for you. Then you learned how, with difficulty, to do it yourself. Within a short time you mastered it and you don't even think about it now. You simply benefit from having tied shoes without having to ask anyone. Somewhere out there is a person that doesn't know how to tie their own shoes asking why people learned to do so for themselves, where you have that answer for yourself.
Others around you see benefits to raising children, the challenge and pay of rising in job role, or the noble contribution of doing charity work bettering others/society. For you, you don't see any of the benefits to yourself that come from those thing. Yet those other people learned to tie their shoes themselves too. You are like them in that they had the desire to better themselves in that small way because you all saw a benefit.
It sounds like the question before you is to examine your life, decide if there is anything you want in it that you don't have, and work a path to getting that. The one further thing I would recommend is don't just look at your life as it is now at age 30. Imagine your life at 35,40, 50, 65, and 80. With the versions of yourself at those ages be satisfied with the person you are today with what you know and have? Will you, at some distant year, be sad that you passed on an opportunity to have something else in your life you don't have today? If so, its up to you, today, to make the choices that will eventually make you into the person you want to be for that distant age.
Only you can answer this question and there is no wrong answer as long as you are true to yourself and have properly explored yourself and the world to properly answer this question.
Pretty sure he’s asking for a reason. The reason you learn to tie your shoes are obvious; time savings and independence.
For some the reasons to have children, do charity work, or climb the corporate ladder are obvious.
The reason is: that person wants that thing and the amount of work to do it is worth the reward to that person, just like learning to tie shoes is to you and me.
Thanks
@humbletightband essentially it's because more responsibility leads to more power.
Specifically, people are interested in having more power over outcomes eg avoiding hunger, discomfort, loneliness etc.
Edit: I don't mean this in a bad or selfish way, though reading back over it I can see how it could come across like that. I'm talking about having more agency and control over aspects of life for yourself and others.
That includes, say, helping with humanitarian causes.
Do you think society would get to the point it is if everyone just wanted more power for selfish reasons? I think it's more to do with the feeling of fulfillment that comes with responsabilities. Helping people feels good, even when you get nothing in return. Unless you expect something in return, then we're playing a different game. But your outlook on life seems pretty bleak my friend.
I don't think it's necessarily bleak or selfish though, it might just be overly succinct. Sure, you can look at it as wanting power purely for selfish reasons, but I think they just boiled it down to the most basic aspect of "more responsibilities = more power = the ability to do more". You can use it however you want, hopefully altruistically, but at the end of the day a pure altruist who is well connected person with unlimited financial resources can help a lot more people than if they were broke and destitute on the edge of starvation.
maybe, but i see quite a few similar reactions in this thread that make me wanna leave this place. its just slowly starting to sink in for me that lemmy is a lefty echo chamber and its basically the same 20 posts rehashed every week by people with worldviews like this. how tf can anyone expect to change anything without hope. Idk man, im just dumping my thoughts but i think im gonna get the hell off this platform and anything similar because it's not having a positive effect on me.
That's not just Lemmy, it's all of social media that isn't focused on people's self-promotion (Instagram, LinkedIn etc). The leftist stuff is fairly accurate, but that's not a big deal to me.
Social media algorithms have driven the content engagement, and they figured out that controversy and anger drives the most engagement, so that's what the algorithms tend to push to drive engagement, to get more ad revenue and data from people spending more time on their platforms.
@RaoulDook I don't think we have that kind of algorithm here, thankfully.
The person you're replying to fundamentally misunderstood my comment though.
@wathek I'm really bummed out that my comment made you want to leave!!
@skyspydude1 is right, I was just trying to point out to OP that the old saying "with power comes responsibility" actually cuts both ways and taking on more responsibility gives many people more agency and control over their lives.
I'm still kind of reeling here because I was trying to be encouraging not despairing. I think maybe the word "power" might have some negative connotation for you?
Cards on the table, I think the old Christian binary between altruism (good) and self-interest (bad) does us all a huge disservice. Helping others altruistically and making the world a better place is in our own best interests. We're all humans together.
No i didn't mean it like that, i'm sorry. It's more of a reaction to the general vibe i get off lemmy while im in a period of trying to debug by brain. I probably misread what you actually meant. Most of lemmy is just frustrated and sad about things we have little control over. It's more the general thread reminding me of healthy ways of thinking vs the rest of lemmy. your comment just happened to be where i was thinking out loud. sorry ><
@wathek thanks. I think it was a misunderstanding caused by my poor communication.
I'm sorry that's been your experience here. It's been very different for me - I was previously on reddit and saw a lot of negativity and cynicism and despair over there. And outright meanness, shills etc.
Kbin/lemmy has made me feel much more revitalised and optimistic, I contribute way more content here, but also somehow have more free time, and I've become a bit more active in my community and local/national politics IRL as well. I feel like I'm really reconnecting with that side of life.
Unfortunately Lemmy isn't that for you, but I hope you find somewhere that is.
@wathek woah I think we're having a misunderstanding. I don't think it's "selfish" to want to have more power/control over outcomes???
One of the things @humbletightband was asking about was why people volunteer. I was responding to that part as much as anything else in the comment.
Yes it does, especially if you actually do help them. That's effecting change though. Stepping up gives you more power to actually change the world for the better, at least for the people you help. That's what I'm getting at.
And in many cases we need to acknowledge that this is a good thing. Everyone should be empowered to have more control and more autonomy. The problem is not everyone is afforded that luxury.
@whoisearth yes I meant it as a good thing. Control and power to effect changes we want in the world are good things.
I've had to go back and edit my comment because some people seem to have taken it in a very different spirit to how it was intended.
In short, because people have different values and are motivated by different things.
Doing something that aligns with your values can be deeply fulfilling! Faith, charity, community, financial independence, respect etc.
Note that there isn't anything objectively right or wrong about this, or the things that people value, it just is. You might value solitude and rest.
Head to personalvalu.es for examples of values.
Thank you for the link. That site was really helpful 🙂
If those things don't make you happy then don't do them.
Because you're smart.
Sincerely,
Overworked middle manager
I have to have a job, which means I have to work. If I have to work, I’d prefer it was challenging and stimulating. That doesn’t mean it’s good, but busy and challenged and better than bored and unstimulated for me personally.
Because they want to grow as an individual lol.
Or people just want different things from life.
I don't want to be a manager, but did have lots of kids and went to school to get a 'real' job. I think to some extent people just do things because they need to be done - I wanted a house and family so easiest way to get that was to have kids and work. I like to eat good food, having money and a garden is the easiest way to get that. It's certainly not a power trip, as someone lower down implies. More like a form of greed, if you have to look at it in a negative way. I like having a full house.
Volunteering is incredibly rewarding, even if it adds to my responsibility. Time devoted to a hobby is incredibly rewarding....even if it takes my time.
The reward is worth the sacrifice.
Certainly better use of my time than sitting around watching tv
It's funny how some people treat responsibility. It's like they are trying to convince me that brushing teeth is "worth sacrifice". I totally agree and I'll probably need to bring this topic to therapy.
Take having kids, for example. You have kids, but you have to earn a fortune, you have to change pampers and you have to regulate yourself emotionally not to fuck up their psyche. It's not that I don't want to have kids because I don't value kids over these chores, it's just I'm afraid if I don't do these chores, I'll be responsible for their shitty future.
Brushing teeth is totally worth doing, but if I one day don't feel like it - it's not a problem.
Don't let those other parents fool you, we ALL have don't feel like it days. You can just take more of them as the kids get older.
I used to avoid extra responsibilities, and I still don't have kids, and I don't do charity. In the past moving to stressful positions was financially motivated. But my current job as a patient advocate is extremely rewarding to me. It's the first time I felt I had a job that meant something and I am fulfilled by making impact in individual lives. I've had people call me a life-saver, and have had patients shed tears after I was able to help them. Sometimes my job is not so great, and some things are routine and go by thanklessly, but the moments I am able to be a difference motivates me.
This is the first job I've participated and engaged in more than just the basic requirements, because I see what I do and what my colleagues do as meaningful and valuable, beyond making a CEO their paycheck. I go as far in my job to actually reduce GDP I suppose, steering people towards options that are best for them, even if they don't generate direct profits for my company. I feel like a real person here, and that's why I take on more responsibilities. (it also will help me financially in the long run, but that is less of a primary factor for me now)
Different concepts of self, maybe, learned from your childhood.
Perhaps you have a limited mindset: suppose you have a happy, productive day of work/effort, and at the end of the day you are tired; on the following day, do you need to rest and rejuvenate because you worked so hard the prior day, or do you work even harder because your efforts from the prior day give you momentum and confidence to keep going?
Another thing to consider is, where do you get your self validation? So, like, were you raised with an internal focus or an external focus? Do you give your best effort and attention working toward your own approval and satisfaction, or do you work toward the approval of others?
As a kid, was it instilled in you that you were inadequate, lacking, or behind your peers in some way? If so, I expect you will spend the rest of your life feeling that way. And when things happen that contradict that, like even when you donate great job on something, if that doesn't match watch was instilled in you, you experience cognitive dissonance, and your brain literally stops you from counting your successess and strengths, because it's uncomfortable to think of yourself as adequate and complete.
What people want in life often comes from what they experienced themselves previously. You mentioned charity. I've put 13 years of my life into being a scouts group leader, organizimg weekly meetups, many events and multiple scout camps a year. I'm very passionate about this, since I've got so much out of being a scout since I was 7, growing up with a community, that was meaningful and not harsh and punishing as school. I wanted tp give these experience back to the next scout generation. And during my time as scout group leader I could grew even more, making my own life better through helping others. Soon I will shift my focus away from the scouts (currently its too much together with work; also I want kids soon).
I'm not saying, that you need to do this. I just wanted to explain where my motivation comes from. I get a sense of fulfilment and I'm proud of what I've done and I'm proud of the kids, that I saw growing up and now being group leaders themselves.
Finding something, that you are passionate about is very important. It doesn't need to include external responsibilities. Taking responsibility for your own self, like putting in hard work to learn a new skill, can be as fulfilling as the above.
We don't do it for the purpose of increasing responsibility. I mean , I didn't, maybe other people do. I just really wanted a couple little mini monsters following me around.
When I was like 30, I was out hiking and I saw some guy with three little kids, the kids were hopping from rock to rock, and the littlest one ran up past the siblings to hold the dad's hand. It was super cute. My parents were kinda uninterested and afk, so I haven't seen a lot of examples of dads just having fun with their kids.
That little family was inspiring, in the sense that it opened my mind to a new way of thinking, but also in the sense of taking in breath, it felt like I had been holding my breath and finally stopped. I realized I didn't necessarily have to be like them, I could use their bad/mediocre parenting as a "what not to do" list, and still do some of the things that they did that were good. I could go hiking with my kids, I could teach them how to build a campsite out of nothing, or how to build a server, or how to put your thumb on the end of a house so it sprays really far.
Sure it's more responsibility but it's also really fun.
And, tbh, all the nice things in life are even nicer if you can share it with people. That goes double for kids, because they don't know how shitty the world is. You just gotta make sure they understand and appreciate the fun stuff and don't get spoiled.
Do you have anything you care about? I take on volunteer tasks for causes I care about. Other people care about family, their workplace, etc. It just seems like you aren't strongly motivated by anything besides personal comfort?
Everyone values different things. Personally, I'm not quite ready for kids (even though I'm past the age where my parents had kids and some of my friends/colleagues my age have kids, I'm about your age), but I'm ready to take on more at work. I find it rewarding and I can make more money. And although money doesn't create happiness, it buys some dope shit. And not advancing at work just gets boring and repetitive. Ig it's like that urban legend about sharks needing to swim...
Money doesn't create happiness, but it definitely sets up an environment for it to thrive.
Different people find joys in different things (some people get more out of charity than they put in)... and different people have a different capacity for stress and energy.
I don't like it when I don't have some challenges or goals in life, I don't like feeling like I'm just coasting along. I'll try a new sport etc so I have a project, and I do a bit of volunteer work towards getting people involved in sports I do.
I think our culture teaches many of us that a good life means excelling and success in all facets of life. If you win everything, surely you would be happy!
IMO the trick is to realize that you have a budget for your attention and energy. Figure out what matters to you, not what you are supposed to care about. Figure out what future you will be glad you did.
For me, this involved leaning into some responsibilities that bring me joy (family, pets, learning for its own sake, hobbies, etc). It meant not putting as much mental energy into things that I’m supposed to be very concerned about because life reasons, but which are neutral to negative on my actual mental state (get into management, focus on learning job-related or money-making things, size of house/cars/yard, etc).
Don’t get me wrong, I love my job and I work with great people. But at the same time, for a couple years now, I’ve spent more time thinking about upgrades to the pond in my back yard than my career development. And I wouldn’t be writing this if I wasn’t better for it.
Standard disclaimer: we are all different. Somebody who gets genuine fulfillment from hammering away at their career is not necessarily a bad thing.
Cos you're a lazy bastard, like me.
Nothing wrong with it. Fill your time and life however you want.
I dunno man. Would be too much hassle for me. I'm in my 30s and struggle not falling into depression every time I get friend zoned, which happens all the time. Dating sucks. I just want to be loved. Having children, being a manager (especially in my field / NGO where politics is a big part of the job) is just way too stressful.
I'm a greasy overweight diesel tech. Stop saying friend zone. That is an easy way to never get with someone. Get a hobby that you like and learn to talk about it without being a snob.
I won't. I have hobbies. I have hobbies I'm passionate about. If it doesn't click for other people but it does for me but they still don't have a problem with being friends what else should it be called other than friend zone?
Maybe I'm wrong but I think the idea of "friend zone" implies romantic rejection, whereas being actual friends is just a platonic relationship with no romantic aspects. Friend zone is like emotional attachment that is getting in the way of a genuine friendship because of that disparity. It sounds immature to say it if you think of it that way. It's reminiscent of the incels on 4chan for a lot of people too, so that doesn't help. Maybe that will clarify why some people think it's cringey to say 'friend zoned'?
That actually explains it quite good. Thanks!
What you described was not what I tried to say by using the term "friend zone".
Thanks for reading, I've seen this happen in different places now. Some communities use it like you intended, others use it as derogatory. Language be gettin harder by the day
Multiple reasons
We are living beings driven to reproduce, some more than others obviously.
Because that is the cultural plan we are trained to follow. You, like me, probably live in a capitalist society, everything about our existence is for the enrichment of our rulers, so that means the more you and your kids generate, the more there is for our rulers to take from us.
Never let anyone denigrate you as lazy. "Lazy" people are not the ones destroying the planet.
You may be a perfectionist who's so afraid of failure that it currently (rationally or irrationally) outweighs the motivation to succeed by a significant margin. You'd like to do some bigger things in life but you self-sabotage by distracting yourself because the thought of actually doing things is way too scary / stressful.
Armchair therapist much? To me the examples given in the post specifically aren't about success, they're about the things people that do not directly count as success but that do require you to devote at least part of your life to it.
Because they're lost or miserable or searching for purpose and keep trying to find it in external things like career advancement or kids or partners or something.
Because they get a touch of Maslows disease
Doing charity doesn't require increased responsibility. That was an unexpected item on your list.
Note that many pregnancies are unplanned. So you can frame it as a one-off choice, but often the reality is that the choice is a reaction to reality. Having a kid or having an abortion, either of those requires responsibility of some kind. In other words, the responsibility was inevitable.
Finally, depending where you live and how wealthy you are, you might want to plan for retirement. Failure to do could make your life highly stressful in thirty-five years. Taking small actions now is actually a stress reliever for many people. In other words, some actions that increase responsibility actually make life more enjoyable even in the short run and certainly in the medium run.
In my experience, it does. I used to do some charity work for Ukrainian refugees: delivering medicine, helping with warehousing, buying suitcases for those who want to go further. That's not an easy one, and it has hella pressure on you, basically because these people do not have a lot of people who would help them.
Indeed. You've given us an example showing that charity works could involve increased responsibility, but certainly not that it is required.
Can you mention some kinds of charity that dont involve increased responsibility? I would like to help people more but don’t feel I have room in my life for more responsibility rn
Donations are the most obvious and probably the most helpful in established communities
Those people have bought into the grind culture and will probably get burnt out