But Biden is as bad as Trump according to some here. Yeah, ok.
Of course Trump is worse.
Now let's not pretend that the Democratic Party has any love at all for these protestors. Let's not pretend that the prevailing sentiment in this community isn't that these protestors should shut up and stop criticizing US support for Netanyahu's genocide because they're worried it makes Biden look bad.
And let's not pretend that the US isn't a two-party system.
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Your choices are Trump or Biden.
And I'm voting for Biden.
No sarcasm whatsoever - thank you.
Then why are you campaigning for Trump?
One can dislike Biden without liking Trump.
Question: Does this heightened level of nuance transfer onto a FPTP voting system?
Answer: absolutely not.
Your comment should read "One can dislike Biden without demanding voters elect a bigger dipshit"...
But it doesn't.
This whole thing of "you need to lie about the facts to make one side look way better than they are or else you are campaigning for the other side" thing needs to go. It just needs to go. It isn't fooling anyone, and it just makes everyone doing it come across as idiots. Own your stance, be honest about what we can all see, and try to explain why you feel like you do from base reality. I know you've been told it makes you a traitor or whatever, but it simply doesn't. It makes you come across as a genuine person, and it makes the things you say have more weight.
Biden thinks the protestors have a First Amendment right to speak out. Repubs want them attacked by the National Guard and/or deported to a war zone.
No he doesn't. He wouldn't be painting them as violent protests that allows everyone to dismiss their first amendment rights if he did.
I did not mention Biden's opinion regarding the protestors.
Yes, that's why it's important someone did mention it.
Yes, it's vitally important to change the subject and argue against something I didn't say.
You guys never have the courage to say what you mean, just hint at it. Say what you mean.
Thank god I have centrists to tell me that I mean tons of shit I don't say.
And thank god I have whatever you are to try to call me a centrist derisively.
::: spoiler spoiler
asdfasfasfasfas
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Vote for Biden, of course. There's no better choice, to my utter dismay.
::: spoiler spoiler
asdfasfasfasfas
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Real change won’t occur within the next few months.
Congratulations.
::: spoiler spoiler
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Sorry. I'm coming to this with the understanding that delay means that many fewer living Palestinians and that much closer to Netanyahu completing his genocide. I consider this situation to be too time-sensitive for incrementalism, and I have a tendency to regard calls for patience in the face of this to be callous.
I also firmly believe that Biden is harming his own chances of defeating Trump by supporting Netanyahu's genocide, and that the future of democracy in the US rests on his willingness to cease his support.
If Biden does not change in the next few months, I fear things will get much worse and may never improve for the human species.
::: spoiler spoiler
asdfasfasfasfas
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I understand that but right now what do you want me to do about it?
I don't know.
Really and truly. I’ve written my reps, I’ve stood with protestors, I’ve been very vocal about my feelings re: Israel’s horrific retaliation
I get that. I live in Texas. Writing to my rep and senators results in a form letter thanking me for agreeing with them (contrary to the content of my letter), followed by fundraising mailers.
We are discussing an election in November between Trump and Biden, right? So what do I do with that?
Only thing to do is vote for Biden and take a really long shower afterwards.
Trump will make it objectively worse for Palestinians. So I will vote Biden.
Likewise. I fear that absent change on Biden's part, he will lose anyway.
Likewise. I fear that absent change on Biden's part, he will lose anyway.
This is the really important part the enlightened centrists and blue MAGA in this thread are ignoring, much to their own peril if they’re to be believed. Biden does actually suck. His outmoded policies are so unpopular, his campaign so devoid of energy, that him losing come November is virtually guaranteed. He’s down in polling in every swing state but one. I know it must be very embarrassing to the card carrying democrats, the prospect of losing to the criminal traitor Trump. But if Biden doesn’t change course drastically and immediately, it’s going to happen. And most importantly - it won’t be the fault of the voters who point to his shortcomings in public discourse. The blame rests squarely on the shoulders of Biden and the DNC for not allowing any alternative whatsoever.
So considering that, thank you @Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world for speaking truth to power in such a hostile landscape. Hopefully it doesn’t completely fall on old, deaf ears.
Let’s pretend about that world…
As trump gasses these folks…
But it’s someone else gassing people… it’s not the same republicans that did it back in the day with the patriots act. No that was different…
So what are you going to do about it?
Vote for Biden in November and criticize his support for genocide until he stops. I've said this more than a few times already.
This is the way
The prevailing attitude on Lemmy seems to be that Israel should be wiped from the face of the earth. Comments that don't support the protesters are quite rare.
Not many people outside of the full-on tankie brigades are arguing that Israel has no right to exist as a country. On the other hand, they are arguing that Palestinine also has a right to exist as a country, and that the land that Israel has unjustly taken, and continues to take, should be returned. And that Israel should need to make reparations for the Palestinian non-combatants they've killed, and the land they've stolen.
It's clear that Israel as a country will never allow Palestinians to have a full voice in their government, so the only reasonable choice at this point is a two-state solution.
Israel is sure doing their best job to try and make that the prevailing attitude. And frankly, I don't know that I disagree anymore. Get the civilians out of harms way, and then wipe out the government and the IDF, alongside Hamas.
let's ask the Gazans if they want Trump or Biden to win in November
If they want any chance in hell, they pick Biden.
Trump rolls out the red carpet for Netanyahu and tries to secure the rights to build a hotel and golf resort on the beach in Gaza.
Actually if they want a chance they will go with a wild card because they already know what Biden would do.
If you think trump is a wild card on this topic I really don't know what to tell you.
you wanna hold your breath with me while we wait for that chance Joe "Im a Zionist" Biden gives them?
If that's your best option, that's what you have to do.
This is how logic and critical thinking work.
Can you provide a better alternative?
I'd say Jill Stein would probably be the best option for them of the choices we have.
She's not an option given the current state of the democratic system used in the country.
The only way it works is if people banded together and changed the system, then a 3rd party system becomes viable.
sure she is, votes count the same for her as for anyone else.
If you think that's how elections currently work in the United States, nothing I can say will help you.
For a 3rd party candidate to be viable, there would need to be enormous system changes or a very successful write in campaign.
I would love for other candidates to be an option, but that's currently not the case.
For a 3rd party candidate to be viable...people literally just need to vote for them. She gonna be on the ballot for me to put a check by and everything.
And what percent of the vote will she get and why?
By all means agitate for a better voting system. But until you have something other than FPP voting third party will do the opposite of what you want. This is a well known paradox of FPP, it has been well studied
Im voting for a better voting system. Jill also has ranked choice voting as a campaign platform. I think you'll have a better chance trying to convince Trump supporters to join Zionist Biden's campaign than me, and with much better returns on your goal of not electing Trump.
In FPP voting far left supports the RW candidate. That's the paradox and that's just math. Your feelings on the matter don't change that unfortunately
Yeah, im aware how shit FPTP is. Im not the one voting for it.
The "Best Option" placed 4th in 2016 and her party did worse in 2020:
2016:
Donald Trump Republican 62,984,828 - 46.09%
Hillary Clinton Democratic 65,853,514 - 48.18%
Gary Johnson Libertarian 4,489,341 - 3.28%
Jill Stein Green 1,457,218 - 1.07%
2020:
Joe Biden Democratic 81,283,501 - 51.31%
Donald Trump Republican 74,223,975 - 46.85%
Jo Jorgensen Libertarian 1,865,535 - 1.18%
Howie Hawkins Green 407,068 - 0.26%
Yeah, more people should be voting for her. Like, if you care about stuff like Biden using emergency powers to bypass congress to send missiles to Israel to help kill more Gazan civilians.
Yeah, more people should be voting for her.
Then trump would win for sure
Yeah probably, everyone seems to either be voting for Trump so he can kill more brown folks, or voting for the guy currently genociding brown folks to stop trump from killing them. End result's the same, im not voting for either of em.
She's an anti science quack who has perpetuated global warming through her nuclear fear mongering. And that's nothing to say of her vaccine skepticism. Nor hobnobbing with capitalist oligarchs who make US CEOs look like socialists.
Nuclear waste is its own environmental beast.
Skepticism is fine, and im assuming youre talking about the singular photo of her visiting Russia. She is running for president, even Bidens made Russia visits as a candidate
Great thing we have reactor technologies now that can reprocess the waste into fuel.
Breeder reactors would quite literally let us reduce existing nuclear waste while generating energy. But Stein has no interest in that. It should tell you a lot about where her actual beliefs lie.
And I forgot to mention, she also said that Wifi causes cancer. She's closer to Trump than she is Biden.
and where are these reactors under current president not-Jill-Stein? Like, we have nuclear power plants here. They ain't recycling that spent fuel, the plan still is to bury that waste for thousands of years.
I dont care much about this topic anyway because its not like the options are just nuclear and fossil fuels. The rest of the developed world is leaving us in the dust with solar and wind generation
I don't think Stein is still the Green Party candidate, if that's what you're referencing
There is a very clear choice now, that many of us have been trying to explain. Trump would be infinitely worse for Palestinians, and he proves it to you here. If you actually care about the Palestinians, it's clear which of the two you should vote for.
If you only care about scoring political points however and using the Palestinians as pawns to that end, I could see why your voting decision would be more challenging.
I dont think you understand how dire things are for palestinians right now. Even if Trump were elected and Gaza was completely wiped off the map, he'd only be responsible for like 10% of the destruction. Its about to be completely gone, Rafah is the last place in Gaza and its already being bombed. Really tired of this lame excuse for Bidens genocide.
I think we all knew this of President Drink Bleach, and we saw how he tear-gassed protesters that time when he held a Bible visibly for a photo shoot.
Trump's issue, I optimistically believe, is that those who wrote "Uncommitted" during the primaries and those who point out the ongoing genocide will still vote for Biden - because everyone has already correctly assumed what this article is stating.
Nonetheless, it's reaffirming to have confirmation. Thank you for posting this.
::: spoiler spoiler
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The important part is to align him with Biden and shit all over everything.
It doesn’t matter if there is a republican giving full throated support to apartheid… if a democrat even seems icky that’s more important.
But what is Genocide Joe going to do to earn MY vote.
South Park turned a whole fucking generation into "but both sides suck" idiots.
Would I like a better candidate? Of course. Do I want to cause untold suffering to myself and the people I love? Nope.
Not even just the people you love. This article makes it exceptionally clear that if you actually care about the Palestinians, Trump winning is the absolute worst case scenario.
Bingo.
Whatever “genocide person” does for you is irrelevant. You are someone desperately asking for others to solve your problems. At worst the rest of us will solve your problems, otherwise you might do it yourself but I have my doubts…
These "I'm not gonna vote for Biden because my principles are too important" folks are really starting to piss me off.
Where were your principles last year? The year before? Where were they when Russia invaded Ukraine? What about the Rohingya? The Yazidi? How about here at home and what Republican power - in congress and across the courts? Where will they be if Trump wins and appoints another SCOTUS judge and packs the federal courts? When hundreds of transgender Americans are murdered? When women no longer have any autonomy over their bodies?
This isn't about your principles. It's not about you looking cool in a keffiyeh. This is about all of us on the left working together to reduce the most harm. You in your enormous privilege are not the main character here.
I mean seriously... get the fuck over yourselves you spoiled brats.
Well put. The only principle we should be considering is saving as many lives as possible and preventing as much persecution as possible. Adherence to any principles which go against this simply shows those principles are not worth holding, not as absolutes at least.
Voting for the democrats isn't saving lives though. The red states are just going ahead with massive civil rights violations anyways. If the democrats won't step in to stop them then we don't have a reason to vote for them anymore. The worst case scenario is already happening. It's not in the future, it's now.
Voting for the democrats isn’t saving lives though.
How do you prove or disprove this?
If the democrats won’t step in to stop them then we don’t have a reason to vote for them anymore
Do you not understand how our system of government works? Or do you just want some sort of left-leaning fascism? Admittedly, Bernie would make a great benevolent dictator... but that's exactly the kind of thing that bites you in the ass eventually.
The president has more power than you think he does. Trump reminded us of that. And it's simple to prove. What has he done to stop Abbot and DeSantis? He has how many federal law enforcement officers? And he hasn't just arrested the Texas national guardsmen operating illegally on the border? Hell he could just call them to federal duty and send them to an ammo dump in Alaska.
If nothing else you've demonstrated your complete ignorance of how our political system works in this country. Well done!
Look up title 10 orders. The president is the commander in chief. If he won't pull those guardsmen out of there it's because he doesn't mind what they've done.
The pure fucking irony of you saying that when everything I just suggested is based in existing law and precedent.
The pure fucking irony of you saying that when everything I just suggested is based in existing law and precedent.
LOL. You are clearly ignorant of the practical implications of such things and more generally of how politics works in real terms.
Every action a president takes either gains or loses political capital. The president does not operate in a vacuum... indeed our entire system of government is designed to have checks and balances and specifically to keep the authority of a president confined.
I must say, you have such an incredibly simplistic view of this... it's quite stunning. You literally sound like a MAGAt, begging for authoritarian control.
So now we're moving the goal posts. It's political capital and not political system.
I agree, what he spends his capital on shows what he cares about. Good thing there's not some black hole of a situation he's just dumping capital into right now...
You are not going to get Arab-Americans to vote for Biden, forget it. You want us to carry water for someone slaughtering us while grinning. I voted for him in 2020 and that will be the last time I ever vote Democratic, the first time was for John Kerry in 2004. Voting Republican is of course not an option, it is third party from now on though I am making arrangements to leave the country. I am paying taxes to give myself PTSD watching Arabs get slaughtered with my tax money. I know most people don't have the means to leave the US, but I do.
Biden could have stopped this genocide from day one, not only he didn't but he continues to supply the weapons and political cover for Israel to continue massacring women and children. There's enough Arab-Americans to swing the election one way or another. Biden and the Democratic Party will have to earn our votes rather than extract them from us by scaring us with Trump.
It's your right to vote 3rd party, but doing so makes it only more likely that Trump will take office and ruin not just Palestine but the ability for Arab Americans and possibly every foreign born, and possibly non-white person in general, to live in the US. In our current political system, third parties count for nothing, it's a wasted vote. I'm not thrilled by Biden either but voting for president has to be strategic.
How could have Biden stopped it on day one? Really. Tell us.
By not sending weapons, by withholding financial aid, by not justifying the crimes and by not vetoing the U.N. ceasefire vote multiple times. Reagan and Bush Sr. were able to do so.
No surprise that Thurmond-loving Biden is to their right somehow.
He won in 2016 despite me voting for Clinton. In 2020 I thought Biden couldn't be worse, but I got a genocide. In 2024 I'm voting for someone I like for a change. Clinton too is never getting a vote from after she posted this. Cheering and justifying a genocide is where I part ways with the Democratic Party.
wrong generalization bro , it's actually muslim americans
You are funny. Arab Americans and Muslim Americans do overlap and both care deeply about Palestine, but are still two different groups. Most Arabs in the US are actually Christian, and the news article I linked to mentioned Arab Americans.
Being pro-palestine is not the definition of the left, the truth is things would only be worse for Palestine if Trump is elected, and in exchange for this punishment of the Dems the potential losses are immense and not just for Palestine. Being pro-palestine is very popular among the far right as well, and they are cheering for Trump just the same as you have been implicitly.
Liberalism and the Democratic Party are on the right. Joe Biden was friends with Strom Thurmond. Joe Biden demonized "busing" and other programs to integrate schools. Joe Biden cheered the slaughter of women in children in Lebanon in 1982. Biden is basically Trump but with more eloquence. Their actions are the same. Palestinians are getting slaughtered right now, protestors are getting beaten up and jailed right now. Trump is just the boogeyman Democrats use to get their voters to stop demanding anything.
Obama gave people hope. Then Biden ran a very progressive campaign after Hillary lost a normal campaign. Our principles were always in play. Nothing has changed, Biden still has to earn votes and nothing Trump said is different from what Biden is doing. He's just saying it out loud. For the record Israel just bombed a known refugee tent camp and this is what other countries are saying. This is what the White House said. Either Biden is a joke that keeps getting played by Netanyahu or Biden thinks we're a joke. Either way is not going to win him votes. And his entire job is to win votes by representing the people. I doubt the kids being denied their college degrees care much whose in white house when the police stormed their protest encampment.
Biden still has to earn votes and nothing Trump said is different from what Biden is doing. He’s just saying it out loud.
You have to be in a position to not be affected by Republican policies to think that. Really to be single-minded about one issue, no matter how valid in itself, while ignoring everything else that affects so many so badly.
You may think you get virtue points for this but what you are showing is just how incredibly privileged and selfish you are.
I'm not doing it for "points". The entire idea that this is some child's game is the problem. People are already dying in massive numbers, here and abroad. Democrats want to just continue the status quo, while the republicans keep changing the status quo.
The entire idea that this is some child’s game is the problem
It's precisely that you can't wrap your head around the fact that this is NOT a child's game where you get to personally pick - for everyone else - the one issue that matters to you this week that is the problem.
If that's true then why do we have elections at all?
This comment section is nothing but crabs in a bucket. This is why rightoids have people banning masks and forming armies of idiots while the left toils against each other. Being unified like the right has benefits but is against our ideals. We need to find a way to compromise with each other to get the most important things we can agree on done.
And yet the same people will hold their intelligence and principals in high regard.
Meanwhile, the Right keeps stacking their deck by playing tribal games with emotions.
When the "scorecard " is tallied, you'll notice intelligence and principals don't count for much if they're not being represented.
All I'm looking for is spears pointed in the right direction at this point. This is it. Right here, right now. We either vote in Trump and lose all democracy or we bite our tongue and use another Biden term to get ranked choice. We can no longer afford to kick the can down the road.
Centrists will never compromise leftward.
I think this is more because of a population imbalance. Left voters are not numerous enough to be worth compromising for -- on a purely numbers based assessment. The middle is a larger and more reliable voter base.
But, I think that's going to change over the next few decades. Progressives and further left people are becoming an increasingly important and large voting bloc. Numerically it will soon make sense to compromise leftwards to get more votes than compromising with the center. We're just not there yet.
I think this is more because of a population imbalance. Left voters are not numerous enough to be worth compromising for – on a purely numbers based assessment.
If they're a large enough group to blame when ya lose, they're a large enough group to compromise with.
I don't disagree there, but that's also why I don't believe in blaming the left nor attributing losses to them. It isn't a large enough group to have that much sway yet.
From a rhetorical perspective I agree -- if politicians are willing to blame the left, they should be willing to work with them. Like you say, it's logically inconsistent to blame them but also think they aren't worth compromising with.
I also think the "rebelliousness" of leftists is overstated. I firmly believe most of them vote with Democrats so that there is harm reduction. I think a lot of the detractors are just a loud online minority. I strongly suspect for instance the "don't threaten me with the supreme court" crowd was not even close to most of the progressives who voted in 2016. More Bernie supporters voted for Clinton in 2016 than Clinton supporters for Obama in 2008, on a percentage basis.
More Bernie supporters voted for Clinton in 2016 than Clinton supporters for Obama in 2008, on a percentage basis.
It's more than that. Clinton supporters started a PAC to get McCain elected when Obama won the nomination. And they're the same people who keep saying "blue no matter who."
There's definitely a considerable number of so called Democrats who find Republicans favorable to Progressives, which is utterly disgusting and a betrayal of their espoused values. Just like the loud progressive minority though, I'd like to think of them as a whiny minority that doesn't reflect most people. I think at the end of the day these two extremes are a dismissible collective group. Most of us can truly cooperate and agree on most things, and find the loud minority repulsive.
Along those lines, I appreciate that you have been consistently reasonable in discussions and arguments. Your criticisms are well founded in evidence and you show that it's possible to be critical and displeased with Biden while still voting for him. That's a level of intellectual nuance I wish I saw more of.
There’s definitely a considerable number of so called Democrats who find Republicans favorable to Progressives, which is utterly disgusting and a betrayal of their espoused values. Just like the loud progressive minority though, I’d like to think of them as a whiny minority that doesn’t reflect most people.
And yet in 2008, Obama won despite their efforts at sabotage. To hear centrists talk about it, anyone who so much as thought a positive thought regarding Bernie Sanders is solely responsible for Clinton's loss in 2016.
We should be able to safely ignore the pampered, spoiled centrists who threw a massive tantrum when they didn't get 100% of everything they wanted in 2008, and ignore progressives at our peril. We do the opposite.
I agree. I think the spoiled centrists are a smaller group than the progressives overall. And it's utterly foolish to blame progressives and Sanders for Clinton's loss in 2016. There were a myriad of issues which all came together, like Russian meddling and the Comey letter and her taking the blue wall for granted. These factors combined had more effect than progressive detractors.
But please, tell me how you refuse to vote for Biden "for Palestine's safety"
That is so messed up. Makes Biden look quite reasonable on the Gaza issue in comparison.
Trump legit wants to nuke Gaza.
Biden isn't handling the situation well, but Trump wound be orders of magnitude worse.
This is what people have been trying to say. Biden isn't doing a great job, but Trump would be infinitely worse. If you actually care about the Palestinians instead of scoring political points, there's a very clear choice who to vote for.
Really? What's different about this and what Biden is actually doing? Biden doesn't say the quiet part out loud. That's it. That's the only difference.
Where in the exact fuck does diaper don think he's deporting US citizens to?
Hopefully a western European country.
Fun fact, if you're targeted for deportation you can always voluntarily self deport. So if they create a diaspora there's going to be 3 major populations of expats. Mexico, where the administration will dump them. Canada where the people who could only afford a road trip went. And the EU where people who can afford a plane ticket went.
He'll put them up in one of his failing hotels then bill them for it.
The right wing has wanted to do this for a while. The rhetoric started with homeless people, (because everyone hates them, they're icky), and expanded to anyone they don't like. Hilariously, without a lot of other changes those people can still vote and if they're getting government disability, will continue to receive that. It will also serve to make the US a pariah state as the one thing nobody wants is refugees. Even ones with money attached.
So all people who say then wont vote Biden because of Gaza, do you see know that Trump is even worse?
Always did, yes.
The article doesn't seem to mention who these "donors" are... you know - the people with enough wealth to buy the politics the proles are constantly being told to "vote harder" for that seems quite happy to listen to their preferred stuffed suit talking about crushing dissent and accelerating ongoing genocide.
Okay, good fucking luck with that. You can’t deport natural-born citizens. What a fucking dumb fuck.
I said natural-born, not immigrants. This is stated by the 14th Amendment. If you are born in the U.S., legally Feds can’t deport you.
The key word in there is legally.
I see no indication that Trump would be in any way constrained by the law if in power again.
Yeah, "legally" in a world where Trump wins a 2nd term is basically, "whatever we say it is". I'm sure if somebody complains about it not being legal, they'll just get shot instead. It sounds like the same sort of argument that pot-heads would make, "If you ask a cop if they're a cop, they legally have to tell you!"
You're forgetting one thing - the constitution is just paper. It's not gonna storm out of the archives and hunt down people who violate it. If the republican party decides to ignore it (which they have MANY times), then they're gonna ignore it. Sure, you can piss and moan about it being illegal during the entire flight to wherever they're sending you, but that doesn't change the fact that you're still on that flight.
Fight against it NOW, before you're stuffed on a plane to somewhere else.
Trump scum cannot be reasoned with!
Swallow your pride and vote Biden.
I also hate the choice of lesser "evil"... but, do it!
Just repeat the mantra "three supreme court justices" over and over. Even if nothing else, the next president will almost certainly shape the court for decades to come. Alito, Sotomayor, and Thomas will all almost certainly retire or die in the next four years.
But yeah sit this one out because Biden isn't dramatically changing long standing us policy.
Either way Palestinians get slaughtered, but only one way Democrats will oppose it.
I would like to be deported to New Zealand please!
It's funny how this headline is exclusively about what Trump would do to pro-palestinian demonstrators, which comports completely with what he was doing to or wanted to do to George Floyd protestors, and yet the comments are mostly about... Joe Biden?
Stay classy, Lemmy.
Lemmy "leftists:" good thing it was never about the Palestinians.
"Leftists" on Lemmy will praise everything about China. I don't think real socialism is supposed to be making that many billionaires, so it must be something else they admire there.
Marx always knew there would be a transition from capitalism to socialism.
None of these measures abolishes capitalism straight away; each constitutes a partial intervention by the state in the economic mechanism of capitalism, and only in the totality, and over time, are they deemed to undermine capitalism completely. Thus, for instance, the measure ‘a vigorously graduated income tax’ assumes that under the dictatorship of the proletariat there would still be marked differences in incomes – that the capitalist would not be expropriated at a stroke. ‘During the revolution, the gigantic increase in the scope of taxation may serve as an attack on private ownership; yet even in such a case taxation must be a stepping stone to fresh revolutionary measures, otherwise there will be a return to the erstwhile bourgeois conditions.’
Hears Trump talk about how he will arrest and deport protestors.
Hear Trump say he will attack Gaza.
Sees protestors already be arrested (some denied degree? or just ceremony)
Israel still attacking refugees -> then sent to Gaza City -> then Rafah under all with Biden's blessings
Checkmate non-Biden supporters?
Nobody wants to admit that America is a capitalist totalitarian state that simply changes faces every 4-8 years.
Vote for capitalism because you don’t have any other choice!
Biden isn't the hero we deserve, he isn't even a hero. At best, he is The Penguin who got out played by the Joker (as Trump doesn't even pretend to take the rules of society seriously).
Do people like Trump because he aligns with their politics or because in a simple way he expresses American identities of being irreverent, 'straight talking' and entrepreneurial? Just a thought as an outsider.
I haven't read all of the comments, but here's a fact I haven't seen mentioned: The sociopathic narcissist doesn't give a rat's ass about Palestine, true, but he also doesn't give a rat's ass about Israel. He cares about himself, and will say or so anything to gain support and acclaim. He's making this threat solely because it plays well to his donors.
THAT'S the scary part. If the authoritarians didn't exist in our midst, he'd be a middle manager somewhere, instead of a contender for the office of President, again. THAT'S what we need to address, and the history of the past 30 or so years shows that getting a Democrat in office doesn't fix anything. Electing Biden won't make the authoritarians go away, which is why we're back with as rematch of the 2020 election, with our democratic institutions four years weaker, and the vulnerable people in our society more scared and more under threat.
Who's going to beat them in 2028?
They're going to be dead or drinking fruit puree from a straw in 2028 both are at the end of their intellectual lives and being president heavily shortens what energy you have left. Neither will be doing much at all in 4 years. It's why you should be looking at who the VPs are.
Well, my whole point here is that DJT is a symptom of the much deeper disease. It won't be him in 2028. It will be another authoritarian, and we can count on that.
O absolutely, I don't see the repubs going away from the continued drive right and unfortunately because of this, i don't see the dems moving to a more progressive platform.
I can't wait to be deported back to Michigan.
I called that one a couple of weeks ago.
Is this supposed to be a full article? I'm confused by its brevity.
They forgot to get ai to fill it with irrelevant bullshit
You are correct
Convincing people that no matter who you vote for, we'll keep paying for the genocide is not a good strategy.
All that will do is make empathetic people not vote, and when turnout is low, republicans win.
Dems can't run in fear based politics about what the other side wants to do, the people that shit works on are already Republicans.
Dem voters want to hear about what Dems will do to help.
It is very very hard to change that, because it's literally how our brains work.
Dems tend to have larger prefrontal cortex (empathy and critical thinking) while Republicans have waaaay more amygdala activity (fear, flight/fright/freeze).
What appeals to one group, doesn't appeal to the other. But both groups cater to conservatives and hope they can guilt trip high empathy voters.
The people running the Dem party need to learn some fucking empathy and realize just because deep down they're closer to conservatives than liberals, and that voters aren't motivated by the same shit.
I mean, we could just replace party leaders with empathetic people who understand their voters, but I'm not holding my breath.
Did you seriously just turn trump talking about deporting us citizens because they are saying something he doesn't like into "but here is why the democrats suck"?
Democrats do need a clearer distinction between themselves and Republicans on this issue.
If the Dems only standard is:
Not trump
While I agree it's good to at least maintain that, it's not enough to get the votes need to beat Trump.
It barely worked when he was in office, why wouldn't 24 be more like 16 than 20?
I don't think people understand that when the candidates are as bad as Biden and trump, that being an incumbent is a disadvantage.
If you think people want Biden as president, you're not paying attention
This isn't about Biden or Trump, at least not directly. This is about trying to save as many Palestinian lives as possible, assuming you actually care about them and aren't just using them for political points.
The ideal situation is that the war ends and Israel completely fucks off. But the ideal solution is not a viable option currently. One candidate is keeping the status quo while criticizing Israel, or and the other candidate wants to intensifying the bombings and attacks on civilians and praises Israel.
Forget the names behind the candidates. Are you truly telling me that there's no difference between these two candidates, and that one option does not kill countless more Palestinians than the other option?
The ideal situation is that the war ends and Israel completely fucks off.
That will never happen with Biden.
I don't know why you don't understand it, maybe you're just too used to his actions never following his words?
But he's been saying nothing will ever lessen his support for Israel for about 50 years now...
This is one of his few promises he's definitely keeping.
I know that'll never happen. That's why I said it's an ideal that won't happen. What I'm talking about is picking the candidate who'll kill fewer Palestinians and may listen to reason, over the one who'll crush any dissent over the war and urge Netanyahu to continue.
and may listen to reason
Biden has spent literally 50 years in office and has been saying nonstop nothing would ever erode his support of Israel...
Nothing
And his actions back up his words here.
You think it's a coincidence this is happening while he's US president and Netanyhu was about to be ousted from power?
You know the bulk of the killing in concentration camps was when the nazis knew they were going to lose?
Bibi and his extremists were going to lose power, somehow one the planets biggest intelligence agencies let an attack thru on the anniversary of an attack during a music festival blocks away from the border?
I'm not saying Israel orchestrated it, but they definitely turned a blind eye to a perfect recipe for an attack and used it as an excuse to commit a genocide while they still had the power to do so.
And Biden spending 50 years saying he will unilaterally support Israel over everything certaintly played into any discussions about how this would go. Along with trump being the opponent being pretty much the only way Dem voters would vote for a Dem who wants to fund a genocide and crack down on his own voters for protesting.
This shit isn't ok.
How do you propose we communicate that to DNC and Biden while shutting up and voting for Biden?
I think there is very much an argument for working to get Democrats we actually WANT to vote for down ballot so that we actually have someone "good" in 4 years.
Having the other candidate openly talk about violating the rights of a significant part of the country is not that moment. And the fact that you want to turn this into an attack on the Democrats makes me REALLY suspicious of what your actual motives are.
Having the other candidate openly talk about violating the rights of a significant part of the country is not that moment
This is Trump's 3rd election...
Why are Dems still running unpopular candidates like Biden?
If all that matters is beating trump like they've been saying for over a decade, why dont we run a candidate that's popular with voters?
Why run an old conservative just because trump is worse?
You know this isn't the norm right? Do you not remember Bill and Obama's first campaigns?
That's the type of campaign we need, otherwise there's a good chance Biden loses.
You can be mad at it, it you can accept it. But Biden isn't popular due to his words and actions
Why are Dems still running unpopular candidates like Biden?
Because he's the sitting President and leader of the Democratic party. I don't understand why this simple fact is so hard to understand.
There's only one person who can decide Biden shouldn't be the nominee and that's Biden. See Johnson in '68. Johnson chose to step aside.
Obama was HEAVILY criticized for his, quite frankly excessive, use of drones in assassinations.
And Clinton had a LONG history of controversies even before he ran for office.
Regardless, Biden is the incumbent. Replacing him is the Democrats saying that they have no faith in the president.
Again, there is a lot of reason to discuss how to salvage the Democratic Party. But not really one where the opposition is talking about illegally deporting protesters.
Keep this up and people will assume you are just a dumbass tankie who is regurgitating Russian and CCP talking points.
They were young and charismatic...
No one said they were perfect but they were popular with voters.
Biden isn't young, and he's not charismatic. So he's not popular with voters.
Are you forgetting how close 2020 was? Don't be fooled when vote totals go up, they always go up with population. But even to get trump actively out of office, Biden pulled an embarrassing percent of eligible voters.
This election he's less popular, and frankly he didn't really have any room to spare.
You're talking about this like reality matters, not perception.
And next time, at least put your insults at the front, I wouldn't have typed all that if I'd seen it.
You’re 1000% correct with this analysis
Dems can't run in fear based politics about what the other side wants to do, the people that shit works on are already Republicans.
This is what’s so disheartening about the modern day DNC, as this seems to be their only campaign strategy since 2016. In a way, what they’re actually doing is normalizing and manufacturing consent for the repugnantcon platform.
“Not Trump” is the lowest possible bar, and the most pathetic part about it is sometimes Biden manages to fall short of it. Get off the fear based bs and lead with some substance Dems!
I voted for Howie Hawkins
Great that you voted, but third party basically throws your vote away in a first-past-the-post system.
Let's look at three situations:
Scenario 1:
D: 1001 votes
R: 1000 votes
H: 0 votes
D wins
Scenario 2:
D: 1000 votes
R: 1000 votes
H: 1 vote
Tied election, decided by the House, so R wins
Scenario 3:
D: 999 votes
R: 1001 votes
H: 2 votes
R wins
This is why it makes enormous sense to avoid third parties in most of the US, and choose the major-party candidate you'd rather negotiate with.
I live in NY. My vote doesn't matter anyway.
There are a ton of congressional, state, and local races where it matters
Yes, Trump agrees with neoliberals regarding anti-genocide protesters.
Yet, Jared Polis identifies as neo liberal. And identifies Pete Buttigieg as one too.
It's the 'kind face' of colonial capitalism. In my opinion. Fascism the scary face. Both lead to corporate feudalism as far as I can tell. One faster and with less chance to use democracy to improve conditions for the poor through safety nets and unions.
But people aren't all one thing. Biden has shown that with his relationship with unions.
::: spoiler spoiler
asdfasfasfasfas
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That's fair. I've always been a bit surprised that Jared Polis self identifies that way tbh.
::: spoiler spoiler
asdfasfasfasfas
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Some folks really do all but worship the invisible hand it’s a bit bizarre.
They do seem to be of the opinion that it's attached to the wrist of God, yes.
Trump is worse. This doesn't paint Biden any better for standing by spectating people's bloodlines being wiped away. You can yell at leftists all you want. The infinite loop of comprising your morals got people here not people wanting to change direction for something better. "We can vote Biden then focus on the next election for something better." We all heard that one before.
You don't fix our fptp system by throwing away your vote for POTUS. For even if it magically works, and a third party wins, it will just quickly revert back to two parties. It solves nothing and is just a dumb vanity vote. The POTUS vote now is a strategic one.
If you want to fix the system, you work from the bottom up to get the way we vote changed.
strategic voting is what leads to party consolidation.
Yes, humans acting rationally in a fptp system is what leads to a two party system. This is exactly the point. Or are you arguing that people should just vote randomly?
being locked into a two-party system is not rational.
Agreed. But that really has nothing to do with the point; it's not a "lock" it's just what is going to happen when people act rationally.
You don't fix FPTP with blind loyalty either. That gets you where we are, right back in the gilded age.
I said nothing about blind loyalty, only about strategically using your vote in the presidential election.
Yet you demand it so stridently.
Vote strategically = you must be loyal
I guess. Lol
Funny how it always turns out you have to hold your nose and vote for the "correct" person even if you vehemently disagree with them.
If you want change here, it comes from the bottom up. But likely the most effort you want to put in is vainly checking the box next to a third party for POTUS: no effort but you can fool yourself into believing you've made a statement.
You guys always say that as a way to dismiss criticism. But I find the people who aren't willing to vote for genocide are more activated. We're marching and organizing. This isn't 2020 with the green party or libertarians. We aren't trying to get Jill Stein elected. We're trying to tell the democrats they can't take us for granted.
I've said nothing about you criticizing anyone.
This is the second time you've grossly misrepresented my point.
Why do you feel the need to be so dishonest in "defense" if your position?
Are you multiple people posting from the same account? Did you check the thread?
Where did I say anything about you not being allowed to criticize anyone? It's sounds like you are accusing me of being multiple people because other posters have made some argument that I did not... Which is quite frankly nuts.
People have been saying this for over 40+ years and liberals have lead the direction of the party with no results for working class people. If there was ever a time to show you're not locked into the duopoly now would be the time between two genocidal old men. People would suck it up and vote for Biden if at least attempted to show some backbone and stand for something. But every time he gets the chance he just works with Right Wingers on some bipartisan bs adopting their policies and direction.
You completely ignored my point and just reiterated the same talking points.
If you want to change the system, it's not done by voting for a third party for POTUS. As I said, doing so is just vanity and does nothing to fix the problem. The problem is solved at the grassroots level.
You don't like the rules, neither do I. But the solution to changing the rules is not to not play the game, but to work to change the rules where the rule changes actually happen. Not playing the game just helps the least desirable team win.
Nobody has said to skip the work of working from the bottom in state and local elections. People do support those campaigns and even when they do they have to fight against Dems and GOP locking them out of being choices there as well. The infinite loop of picking the nicer fascist isn't doing anything as well.
The infinite loop of picking the nicer fascist isn’t doing anything as well.
That's the whole point: your goal to change how we can reasonably vote in the POTUS vote, does not happen when electing the POTUS, so expecting electing the POTUS to change this makes no sense.
It has to come from elsewhere. While I strong disagree with the classification, you're stuck voting for the "nicer fascist" less you end up with the worse fascist.
The US has also been an inherently conservative country for 40+ years, and it is only just now gaining a substantial left wing presence.
It is only since the Internet went wide that leftists in the US have been able to get unbiased attention. We were always here, but it's hard when even MSNBC compared your ideas to dictators in the 1990's and 2000's before jumping on the bandwagon (but only if private corporations can get their middle man profiteering on).
You're thinking of things wrong and it's leading you to silly conclusions.
Voting for president is not about voting for the person that will solve of our problems.
Stop looking to the state to solve our problems, that is not it's purpose, it does not have this ability.
Real problems are solved by people.
Voting for U.S. president is a strategic choice we're allowed every four years, choose the option that makes your life and/or job easier. If you're really concerned about genocide, choose the option for president that will make your job of anti-war activist easier and safer.
Understand that many of your anti-war allies are LGBTQ, and that if Trump wins, he is almost certainly going to make it much harder for your allies to survive, let alone be activists. Why would you throw your allies under the bus to make an ideological point like 16 people on Lemmy will see?
I don't know about them but I don't care about 16 people on Lemmy. I care about 16 people in charge of the democrats. I want them to see they cannot hold power without the left.
I want them to see they cannot hold power without the left.
Ok, I get that, but if the Democrats don't win, who does? Obviously the Republicans right? Is that an improvement? If Republicans destroy democracy (as they have been crystal clear about), what use is sending messages relevant to electoral politics?
If we can only vote for one party then democracy is already dead. Then what's the point of voting at all?
The point of voting is not to choose the candidate that will fix everything and give up if there isn't one, it's to choose the the option that will make your life easier, even if just a little. If you want the world to be a better place, one candidate will make your job risky and dangerous by putting left wingers in prison and supporting right wing violence, the other wont. Why make your life/job harder because you're upset or frustrated? Why harm your LGBTQ comrades with your apathy?
Genocide
Trump: Yes
Biden: Yes
Make life hell for LGBTQ at home in the U.S.
Trump: Yes
Biden: No
The Democrats"fix" less and less every time we elect them. The bus isn't going towards any stops I want to take. It's going the other way, following the red line. I've tried filing complaints but they just go into the void. So I think it's time for a new bus.
So I think it’s time for a new bus.
Me too, but jumping off a running bus onto flaming mini van full idiots isn't going to help anyone.
Everything you hate about Biden is still going to be there under Trump only worse, and Trump is the only other option at this moment. You want better choices in the future, run for office, encourage people to run for office. As long as people like you are encouraging good people to forfeit electoral politics, only the worst people are going to be available as options to vote for.
We already had our chances at good people. The Democrats kept that from happening. At this point I'm really starting to believe the only choice is to back up, and protest how we elect presidents in the first place. It doesn't seem to produce a representative of the people. And the more people tell me I have to vote for Biden because of Boogeyman, the more sure I am.
At this point I’m really starting to believe the only choice is to back up, and protest how we elect presidents in the first place. It doesn’t seem to produce a representative of the people.
Again, you're right, how we elect presidents is fucked up and needs to change. Is making that change going to be easier under Trump? Because that's who's going to be president if Biden loses. Is changing how we elect presidents going to be easier when anyone willing to be an activist to accomplish it gets arrested? You think protest arrests are bad now, just wait until an actual fascist is in charge and your friends start disappearing.
People are getting arrested now. And we already dealt with people disappearing. Look up Homan Square.
The stuff you are threatening us with is already happening.
That's what I mean, a few people being disappeared in a particularly crazy summer of nationwide protests years ago is way better than it being the norm for anyone that doesn't agree with the Trump admin.
Do you not understand degrees of harm and think that since Biden isn't a perfect communist than he is no different than an full on fascist dictatorship? Do you hate you mom like Hitler if she doesn't give you Cheetos for dinner?
So he's gonna duplicate what's going on right now?
Are you familiar with republican foreign policy?
Yes, it looks exactly like Democrat foreign policy, Republicans and Democrats use the same US imperialistic agenda to retain their power and dominance over other countries. When they both use people like Henry Kissinger as a foreign policy advisor, the end game is still the same
Keep it going! They are the same because history! They both USED Kissinger!
Foreign policy is clearly beyond your grasp.
With your approach… The end game seems to be ignorance.
Nuland, Blinken, Sullivan all have the same approach to foreign policy. Expand US imperialism and the interests of capital while slaughtering civilians.
They have so been slaughtered! This approach to US imperialism has totally solved for your concern.
::: spoiler spoiler
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So the difference is that Trump will drop a MOAB and kill hundreds..
And Biden will send 300,000 massive bombs to a genocidal warlord to kill tens of thousands?
I'm not trying to defend Trump, but I'm confused by your logic.
If that's what you think, it's readily apparent that you don't actually care about Palestinians, you just want to use them to score political points.
If you actually want to help then and prevent as many of their deaths as possible, your choice is clear. If you had the option to pull two levers, where one would keep the status quo and one would save just one Palestinian life, which would you pull?
I oppose the status quo, as anyone with a conscience should
If your only options were the status quo or things getting worse, you'd pick things getting worse?
Red and blue are defenders of the status quo. The DNC always providing a rotating villain to be afraid of enables their power and keeps the status quo protected
It must be nice living in a world where the DNC is all that's keeping us from achieving progressive goals, and that if they went away, all of our problems would be solved.
It's an ignorant but comfortable worldview, isn't it? All we have to do is beat the rotating villain and the DNC and then we'll get everything we want and a happy ending. The bad status quo will go away and everyone will agree with us because our ideas are the best.
It needs to be replaced with a party that actually represents the people. There's no room in the country for two right-wing parties and that's what we currently have
But Biden is as bad as Trump according to some here. Yeah, ok.
Of course Trump is worse.
Now let's not pretend that the Democratic Party has any love at all for these protestors. Let's not pretend that the prevailing sentiment in this community isn't that these protestors should shut up and stop criticizing US support for Netanyahu's genocide because they're worried it makes Biden look bad.
And let's not pretend that the US isn't a two-party system.
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Your choices are Trump or Biden.
And I'm voting for Biden.
No sarcasm whatsoever - thank you.
Then why are you campaigning for Trump?
One can dislike Biden without liking Trump.
Question: Does this heightened level of nuance transfer onto a FPTP voting system?
Answer: absolutely not.
Your comment should read "One can dislike Biden without demanding voters elect a bigger dipshit"...
But it doesn't.
This whole thing of "you need to lie about the facts to make one side look way better than they are or else you are campaigning for the other side" thing needs to go. It just needs to go. It isn't fooling anyone, and it just makes everyone doing it come across as idiots. Own your stance, be honest about what we can all see, and try to explain why you feel like you do from base reality. I know you've been told it makes you a traitor or whatever, but it simply doesn't. It makes you come across as a genuine person, and it makes the things you say have more weight.
That is not at all what's happening. The world is much less black and white than you think.
I'm not campaigning for Trump.
Biden thinks the protestors have a First Amendment right to speak out. Repubs want them attacked by the National Guard and/or deported to a war zone.
No he doesn't. He wouldn't be painting them as violent protests that allows everyone to dismiss their first amendment rights if he did.
I did not mention Biden's opinion regarding the protestors.
Yes, that's why it's important someone did mention it.
Yes, it's vitally important to change the subject and argue against something I didn't say.
You guys never have the courage to say what you mean, just hint at it. Say what you mean.
Thank god I have centrists to tell me that I mean tons of shit I don't say.
And thank god I have whatever you are to try to call me a centrist derisively.
::: spoiler spoiler asdfasfasfasfas :::
Vote for Biden, of course. There's no better choice, to my utter dismay.
::: spoiler spoiler asdfasfasfasfas :::
Congratulations.
::: spoiler spoiler asdfasfasfasfas :::
Sorry. I'm coming to this with the understanding that delay means that many fewer living Palestinians and that much closer to Netanyahu completing his genocide. I consider this situation to be too time-sensitive for incrementalism, and I have a tendency to regard calls for patience in the face of this to be callous.
I also firmly believe that Biden is harming his own chances of defeating Trump by supporting Netanyahu's genocide, and that the future of democracy in the US rests on his willingness to cease his support.
If Biden does not change in the next few months, I fear things will get much worse and may never improve for the human species.
::: spoiler spoiler asdfasfasfasfas :::
I don't know.
I get that. I live in Texas. Writing to my rep and senators results in a form letter thanking me for agreeing with them (contrary to the content of my letter), followed by fundraising mailers.
Only thing to do is vote for Biden and take a really long shower afterwards.
Likewise. I fear that absent change on Biden's part, he will lose anyway.
This is the really important part the enlightened centrists and blue MAGA in this thread are ignoring, much to their own peril if they’re to be believed. Biden does actually suck. His outmoded policies are so unpopular, his campaign so devoid of energy, that him losing come November is virtually guaranteed. He’s down in polling in every swing state but one. I know it must be very embarrassing to the card carrying democrats, the prospect of losing to the criminal traitor Trump. But if Biden doesn’t change course drastically and immediately, it’s going to happen. And most importantly - it won’t be the fault of the voters who point to his shortcomings in public discourse. The blame rests squarely on the shoulders of Biden and the DNC for not allowing any alternative whatsoever.
So considering that, thank you @Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world for speaking truth to power in such a hostile landscape. Hopefully it doesn’t completely fall on old, deaf ears.
Let’s pretend about that world…
As trump gasses these folks…
But it’s someone else gassing people… it’s not the same republicans that did it back in the day with the patriots act. No that was different…
So what are you going to do about it?
Vote for Biden in November and criticize his support for genocide until he stops. I've said this more than a few times already.
This is the way
The prevailing attitude on Lemmy seems to be that Israel should be wiped from the face of the earth. Comments that don't support the protesters are quite rare.
Not many people outside of the full-on tankie brigades are arguing that Israel has no right to exist as a country. On the other hand, they are arguing that Palestinine also has a right to exist as a country, and that the land that Israel has unjustly taken, and continues to take, should be returned. And that Israel should need to make reparations for the Palestinian non-combatants they've killed, and the land they've stolen.
It's clear that Israel as a country will never allow Palestinians to have a full voice in their government, so the only reasonable choice at this point is a two-state solution.
Israel is sure doing their best job to try and make that the prevailing attitude. And frankly, I don't know that I disagree anymore. Get the civilians out of harms way, and then wipe out the government and the IDF, alongside Hamas.
let's ask the Gazans if they want Trump or Biden to win in November
If they want any chance in hell, they pick Biden.
Trump rolls out the red carpet for Netanyahu and tries to secure the rights to build a hotel and golf resort on the beach in Gaza.
Actually if they want a chance they will go with a wild card because they already know what Biden would do.
If you think trump is a wild card on this topic I really don't know what to tell you.
you wanna hold your breath with me while we wait for that chance Joe "Im a Zionist" Biden gives them?
If that's your best option, that's what you have to do.
This is how logic and critical thinking work.
Can you provide a better alternative?
I'd say Jill Stein would probably be the best option for them of the choices we have.
She's not an option given the current state of the democratic system used in the country.
The only way it works is if people banded together and changed the system, then a 3rd party system becomes viable.
sure she is, votes count the same for her as for anyone else.
If you think that's how elections currently work in the United States, nothing I can say will help you.
For a 3rd party candidate to be viable, there would need to be enormous system changes or a very successful write in campaign.
I would love for other candidates to be an option, but that's currently not the case.
For a 3rd party candidate to be viable...people literally just need to vote for them. She gonna be on the ballot for me to put a check by and everything.
And what percent of the vote will she get and why?
However many people vote for her?
By all means agitate for a better voting system. But until you have something other than FPP voting third party will do the opposite of what you want. This is a well known paradox of FPP, it has been well studied
Im voting for a better voting system. Jill also has ranked choice voting as a campaign platform. I think you'll have a better chance trying to convince Trump supporters to join Zionist Biden's campaign than me, and with much better returns on your goal of not electing Trump.
In FPP voting far left supports the RW candidate. That's the paradox and that's just math. Your feelings on the matter don't change that unfortunately
Yeah, im aware how shit FPTP is. Im not the one voting for it.
Do you mean russian asset Jill Stein?
she's not a russian asset. this is libel.
edit
have fun with this comment chain. it's a wild ride.
If that were the case, wouldn't she have sued?
you think she can use every internet commenter? when someone lies about you, you run right to your lawyer?
No, if it were libel, there wouldn't be articles posted about it.
which one?
You talking about that one photo? You wont believe who else has been to Russia several times.
The "Best Option" placed 4th in 2016 and her party did worse in 2020:
2016:
Donald Trump Republican 62,984,828 - 46.09%
Hillary Clinton Democratic 65,853,514 - 48.18%
Gary Johnson Libertarian 4,489,341 - 3.28%
Jill Stein Green 1,457,218 - 1.07%
2020:
Joe Biden Democratic 81,283,501 - 51.31%
Donald Trump Republican 74,223,975 - 46.85%
Jo Jorgensen Libertarian 1,865,535 - 1.18%
Howie Hawkins Green 407,068 - 0.26%
Yeah, more people should be voting for her. Like, if you care about stuff like Biden using emergency powers to bypass congress to send missiles to Israel to help kill more Gazan civilians.
Then trump would win for sure
Yeah probably, everyone seems to either be voting for Trump so he can kill more brown folks, or voting for the guy currently genociding brown folks to stop trump from killing them. End result's the same, im not voting for either of em.
She's an anti science quack who has perpetuated global warming through her nuclear fear mongering. And that's nothing to say of her vaccine skepticism. Nor hobnobbing with capitalist oligarchs who make US CEOs look like socialists.
Nuclear waste is its own environmental beast.
Skepticism is fine, and im assuming youre talking about the singular photo of her visiting Russia. She is running for president, even Bidens made Russia visits as a candidate
Great thing we have reactor technologies now that can reprocess the waste into fuel.
Breeder reactors would quite literally let us reduce existing nuclear waste while generating energy. But Stein has no interest in that. It should tell you a lot about where her actual beliefs lie.
And I forgot to mention, she also said that Wifi causes cancer. She's closer to Trump than she is Biden.
and where are these reactors under current president not-Jill-Stein? Like, we have nuclear power plants here. They ain't recycling that spent fuel, the plan still is to bury that waste for thousands of years.
I dont care much about this topic anyway because its not like the options are just nuclear and fossil fuels. The rest of the developed world is leaving us in the dust with solar and wind generation
I don't think Stein is still the Green Party candidate, if that's what you're referencing
She is
Based on this article, I think they'd want Biden.
There is a very clear choice now, that many of us have been trying to explain. Trump would be infinitely worse for Palestinians, and he proves it to you here. If you actually care about the Palestinians, it's clear which of the two you should vote for.
If you only care about scoring political points however and using the Palestinians as pawns to that end, I could see why your voting decision would be more challenging.
I dont think you understand how dire things are for palestinians right now. Even if Trump were elected and Gaza was completely wiped off the map, he'd only be responsible for like 10% of the destruction. Its about to be completely gone, Rafah is the last place in Gaza and its already being bombed. Really tired of this lame excuse for Bidens genocide.
Bidens better in some ways and continuing or advocating for Trumps policies in others.
So makes sense why some would say that
Okay. How is trump better for human rights? Or... anything.
Take your time.
In what way did I even argue anything was better with trump?
And just makes it worse when Biden is doing some of his polices.
The only reason it "makes sense" to pick trump over Biden is if you think the orange fuck has some redeeming qualities. So what are they?
Yeah in response to
Bidens literally continuing trumps immigration policy and trying to get even more right wing immigration policy in.
Do you think pointing out how Biden is bad can only mean a person in pro trump?
Again where did say anything about trump good?
I think we all knew this of President Drink Bleach, and we saw how he tear-gassed protesters that time when he held a Bible visibly for a photo shoot.
Trump's issue, I optimistically believe, is that those who wrote "Uncommitted" during the primaries and those who point out the ongoing genocide will still vote for Biden - because everyone has already correctly assumed what this article is stating.
Nonetheless, it's reaffirming to have confirmation. Thank you for posting this.
::: spoiler spoiler asdfasfasfasfas :::
The important part is to align him with Biden and shit all over everything.
It doesn’t matter if there is a republican giving full throated support to apartheid… if a democrat even seems icky that’s more important.
But what is Genocide Joe going to do to earn MY vote.
South Park turned a whole fucking generation into "but both sides suck" idiots.
He’s not gonna be Trump. Got my vote.
Biden is required to ship weapons to Israel by law. He is doing what he can to limit Israel's carnage. Remember the USS Liberty? Israel doesn't care about anyone other than Israel.
Thank you for that link. It will be helpful.
A lot of people are unaware of Jonathan Pollard too.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard
Yup.
Would I like a better candidate? Of course. Do I want to cause untold suffering to myself and the people I love? Nope.
Not even just the people you love. This article makes it exceptionally clear that if you actually care about the Palestinians, Trump winning is the absolute worst case scenario.
Bingo.
Whatever “genocide person” does for you is irrelevant. You are someone desperately asking for others to solve your problems. At worst the rest of us will solve your problems, otherwise you might do it yourself but I have my doubts…
These "I'm not gonna vote for Biden because my principles are too important" folks are really starting to piss me off.
Where were your principles last year? The year before? Where were they when Russia invaded Ukraine? What about the Rohingya? The Yazidi? How about here at home and what Republican power - in congress and across the courts? Where will they be if Trump wins and appoints another SCOTUS judge and packs the federal courts? When hundreds of transgender Americans are murdered? When women no longer have any autonomy over their bodies?
This isn't about your principles. It's not about you looking cool in a keffiyeh. This is about all of us on the left working together to reduce the most harm. You in your enormous privilege are not the main character here.
I mean seriously... get the fuck over yourselves you spoiled brats.
Well put. The only principle we should be considering is saving as many lives as possible and preventing as much persecution as possible. Adherence to any principles which go against this simply shows those principles are not worth holding, not as absolutes at least.
Voting for the democrats isn't saving lives though. The red states are just going ahead with massive civil rights violations anyways. If the democrats won't step in to stop them then we don't have a reason to vote for them anymore. The worst case scenario is already happening. It's not in the future, it's now.
How do you prove or disprove this?
Do you not understand how our system of government works? Or do you just want some sort of left-leaning fascism? Admittedly, Bernie would make a great benevolent dictator... but that's exactly the kind of thing that bites you in the ass eventually.
The president has more power than you think he does. Trump reminded us of that. And it's simple to prove. What has he done to stop Abbot and DeSantis? He has how many federal law enforcement officers? And he hasn't just arrested the Texas national guardsmen operating illegally on the border? Hell he could just call them to federal duty and send them to an ammo dump in Alaska.
If nothing else you've demonstrated your complete ignorance of how our political system works in this country. Well done!
Look up title 10 orders. The president is the commander in chief. If he won't pull those guardsmen out of there it's because he doesn't mind what they've done.
The pure fucking irony of you saying that when everything I just suggested is based in existing law and precedent.
LOL. You are clearly ignorant of the practical implications of such things and more generally of how politics works in real terms.
Every action a president takes either gains or loses political capital. The president does not operate in a vacuum... indeed our entire system of government is designed to have checks and balances and specifically to keep the authority of a president confined.
I must say, you have such an incredibly simplistic view of this... it's quite stunning. You literally sound like a MAGAt, begging for authoritarian control.
So now we're moving the goal posts. It's political capital and not political system.
I agree, what he spends his capital on shows what he cares about. Good thing there's not some black hole of a situation he's just dumping capital into right now...
You are not going to get Arab-Americans to vote for Biden, forget it. You want us to carry water for someone slaughtering us while grinning. I voted for him in 2020 and that will be the last time I ever vote Democratic, the first time was for John Kerry in 2004. Voting Republican is of course not an option, it is third party from now on though I am making arrangements to leave the country. I am paying taxes to give myself PTSD watching Arabs get slaughtered with my tax money. I know most people don't have the means to leave the US, but I do.
Biden could have stopped this genocide from day one, not only he didn't but he continues to supply the weapons and political cover for Israel to continue massacring women and children. There's enough Arab-Americans to swing the election one way or another. Biden and the Democratic Party will have to earn our votes rather than extract them from us by scaring us with Trump.
It's your right to vote 3rd party, but doing so makes it only more likely that Trump will take office and ruin not just Palestine but the ability for Arab Americans and possibly every foreign born, and possibly non-white person in general, to live in the US. In our current political system, third parties count for nothing, it's a wasted vote. I'm not thrilled by Biden either but voting for president has to be strategic.
How could have Biden stopped it on day one? Really. Tell us.
By not sending weapons, by withholding financial aid, by not justifying the crimes and by not vetoing the U.N. ceasefire vote multiple times. Reagan and Bush Sr. were able to do so. No surprise that Thurmond-loving Biden is to their right somehow.
3rd party vote just goes to Cheato Mussolini
He won in 2016 despite me voting for Clinton. In 2020 I thought Biden couldn't be worse, but I got a genocide. In 2024 I'm voting for someone I like for a change. Clinton too is never getting a vote from after she posted this. Cheering and justifying a genocide is where I part ways with the Democratic Party.
wrong generalization bro , it's actually muslim americans
You are funny. Arab Americans and Muslim Americans do overlap and both care deeply about Palestine, but are still two different groups. Most Arabs in the US are actually Christian, and the news article I linked to mentioned Arab Americans.
You are not on the left.
Being pro-palestine is not the definition of the left, the truth is things would only be worse for Palestine if Trump is elected, and in exchange for this punishment of the Dems the potential losses are immense and not just for Palestine. Being pro-palestine is very popular among the far right as well, and they are cheering for Trump just the same as you have been implicitly.
Liberalism and the Democratic Party are on the right. Joe Biden was friends with Strom Thurmond. Joe Biden demonized "busing" and other programs to integrate schools. Joe Biden cheered the slaughter of women in children in Lebanon in 1982. Biden is basically Trump but with more eloquence. Their actions are the same. Palestinians are getting slaughtered right now, protestors are getting beaten up and jailed right now. Trump is just the boogeyman Democrats use to get their voters to stop demanding anything.
Obama gave people hope. Then Biden ran a very progressive campaign after Hillary lost a normal campaign. Our principles were always in play. Nothing has changed, Biden still has to earn votes and nothing Trump said is different from what Biden is doing. He's just saying it out loud. For the record Israel just bombed a known refugee tent camp and this is what other countries are saying. This is what the White House said. Either Biden is a joke that keeps getting played by Netanyahu or Biden thinks we're a joke. Either way is not going to win him votes. And his entire job is to win votes by representing the people. I doubt the kids being denied their college degrees care much whose in white house when the police stormed their protest encampment.
You have to be in a position to not be affected by Republican policies to think that. Really to be single-minded about one issue, no matter how valid in itself, while ignoring everything else that affects so many so badly.
You may think you get virtue points for this but what you are showing is just how incredibly privileged and selfish you are.
I'm not doing it for "points". The entire idea that this is some child's game is the problem. People are already dying in massive numbers, here and abroad. Democrats want to just continue the status quo, while the republicans keep changing the status quo.
It's precisely that you can't wrap your head around the fact that this is NOT a child's game where you get to personally pick - for everyone else - the one issue that matters to you this week that is the problem.
If that's true then why do we have elections at all?
This comment section is nothing but crabs in a bucket. This is why rightoids have people banning masks and forming armies of idiots while the left toils against each other. Being unified like the right has benefits but is against our ideals. We need to find a way to compromise with each other to get the most important things we can agree on done.
And yet the same people will hold their intelligence and principals in high regard.
Meanwhile, the Right keeps stacking their deck by playing tribal games with emotions.
When the "scorecard " is tallied, you'll notice intelligence and principals don't count for much if they're not being represented.
All I'm looking for is spears pointed in the right direction at this point. This is it. Right here, right now. We either vote in Trump and lose all democracy or we bite our tongue and use another Biden term to get ranked choice. We can no longer afford to kick the can down the road.
Centrists will never compromise leftward.
I think this is more because of a population imbalance. Left voters are not numerous enough to be worth compromising for -- on a purely numbers based assessment. The middle is a larger and more reliable voter base.
But, I think that's going to change over the next few decades. Progressives and further left people are becoming an increasingly important and large voting bloc. Numerically it will soon make sense to compromise leftwards to get more votes than compromising with the center. We're just not there yet.
If they're a large enough group to blame when ya lose, they're a large enough group to compromise with.
I don't disagree there, but that's also why I don't believe in blaming the left nor attributing losses to them. It isn't a large enough group to have that much sway yet.
From a rhetorical perspective I agree -- if politicians are willing to blame the left, they should be willing to work with them. Like you say, it's logically inconsistent to blame them but also think they aren't worth compromising with.
I also think the "rebelliousness" of leftists is overstated. I firmly believe most of them vote with Democrats so that there is harm reduction. I think a lot of the detractors are just a loud online minority. I strongly suspect for instance the "don't threaten me with the supreme court" crowd was not even close to most of the progressives who voted in 2016. More Bernie supporters voted for Clinton in 2016 than Clinton supporters for Obama in 2008, on a percentage basis.
It's more than that. Clinton supporters started a PAC to get McCain elected when Obama won the nomination. And they're the same people who keep saying "blue no matter who."
There's definitely a considerable number of so called Democrats who find Republicans favorable to Progressives, which is utterly disgusting and a betrayal of their espoused values. Just like the loud progressive minority though, I'd like to think of them as a whiny minority that doesn't reflect most people. I think at the end of the day these two extremes are a dismissible collective group. Most of us can truly cooperate and agree on most things, and find the loud minority repulsive.
Along those lines, I appreciate that you have been consistently reasonable in discussions and arguments. Your criticisms are well founded in evidence and you show that it's possible to be critical and displeased with Biden while still voting for him. That's a level of intellectual nuance I wish I saw more of.
And yet in 2008, Obama won despite their efforts at sabotage. To hear centrists talk about it, anyone who so much as thought a positive thought regarding Bernie Sanders is solely responsible for Clinton's loss in 2016.
We should be able to safely ignore the pampered, spoiled centrists who threw a massive tantrum when they didn't get 100% of everything they wanted in 2008, and ignore progressives at our peril. We do the opposite.
I agree. I think the spoiled centrists are a smaller group than the progressives overall. And it's utterly foolish to blame progressives and Sanders for Clinton's loss in 2016. There were a myriad of issues which all came together, like Russian meddling and the Comey letter and her taking the blue wall for granted. These factors combined had more effect than progressive detractors.
But please, tell me how you refuse to vote for Biden "for Palestine's safety"
That is so messed up. Makes Biden look quite reasonable on the Gaza issue in comparison.
Trump legit wants to nuke Gaza.
Biden isn't handling the situation well, but Trump wound be orders of magnitude worse.
This is what people have been trying to say. Biden isn't doing a great job, but Trump would be infinitely worse. If you actually care about the Palestinians instead of scoring political points, there's a very clear choice who to vote for.
Really? What's different about this and what Biden is actually doing? Biden doesn't say the quiet part out loud. That's it. That's the only difference.
Where in the exact fuck does diaper don think he's deporting US citizens to?
Hopefully a western European country.
Fun fact, if you're targeted for deportation you can always voluntarily self deport. So if they create a diaspora there's going to be 3 major populations of expats. Mexico, where the administration will dump them. Canada where the people who could only afford a road trip went. And the EU where people who can afford a plane ticket went.
He'll put them up in one of his failing hotels then bill them for it.
The right wing has wanted to do this for a while. The rhetoric started with homeless people, (because everyone hates them, they're icky), and expanded to anyone they don't like. Hilariously, without a lot of other changes those people can still vote and if they're getting government disability, will continue to receive that. It will also serve to make the US a pariah state as the one thing nobody wants is refugees. Even ones with money attached.
So all people who say then wont vote Biden because of Gaza, do you see know that Trump is even worse?
Always did, yes.
The article doesn't seem to mention who these "donors" are... you know - the people with enough wealth to buy the politics the proles are constantly being told to "vote harder" for that seems quite happy to listen to their preferred stuffed suit talking about crushing dissent and accelerating ongoing genocide.
Okay, good fucking luck with that. You can’t deport natural-born citizens. What a fucking dumb fuck.
You definitely can — you don't have basic rights during a deportation hearing, such as the right to an attorney. All it takes is a bunch of law enforcement who are willing to do it and orders from above.
I said natural-born, not immigrants. This is stated by the 14th Amendment. If you are born in the U.S., legally Feds can’t deport you.
The key word in there is legally.
I see no indication that Trump would be in any way constrained by the law if in power again.
Yeah, "legally" in a world where Trump wins a 2nd term is basically, "whatever we say it is". I'm sure if somebody complains about it not being legal, they'll just get shot instead. It sounds like the same sort of argument that pot-heads would make, "If you ask a cop if they're a cop, they legally have to tell you!"
You're forgetting one thing - the constitution is just paper. It's not gonna storm out of the archives and hunt down people who violate it. If the republican party decides to ignore it (which they have MANY times), then they're gonna ignore it. Sure, you can piss and moan about it being illegal during the entire flight to wherever they're sending you, but that doesn't change the fact that you're still on that flight.
Fight against it NOW, before you're stuffed on a plane to somewhere else.
Trump scum cannot be reasoned with!
Swallow your pride and vote Biden.
I also hate the choice of lesser "evil"... but, do it!
Just repeat the mantra "three supreme court justices" over and over. Even if nothing else, the next president will almost certainly shape the court for decades to come. Alito, Sotomayor, and Thomas will all almost certainly retire or die in the next four years.
But yeah sit this one out because Biden isn't dramatically changing long standing us policy.
Either way Palestinians get slaughtered, but only one way Democrats will oppose it.
I would like to be deported to New Zealand please!
It's funny how this headline is exclusively about what Trump would do to pro-palestinian demonstrators, which comports completely with what he was doing to or wanted to do to George Floyd protestors, and yet the comments are mostly about... Joe Biden?
Stay classy, Lemmy.
Lemmy "leftists:" good thing it was never about the Palestinians.
"Leftists" on Lemmy will praise everything about China. I don't think real socialism is supposed to be making that many billionaires, so it must be something else they admire there.
Marx always knew there would be a transition from capitalism to socialism.
Nobody wants to admit that America is a capitalist totalitarian state that simply changes faces every 4-8 years.
Vote for capitalism because you don’t have any other choice!
Biden isn't the hero we deserve, he isn't even a hero. At best, he is The Penguin who got out played by the Joker (as Trump doesn't even pretend to take the rules of society seriously).
Do people like Trump because he aligns with their politics or because in a simple way he expresses American identities of being irreverent, 'straight talking' and entrepreneurial? Just a thought as an outsider.
I haven't read all of the comments, but here's a fact I haven't seen mentioned: The sociopathic narcissist doesn't give a rat's ass about Palestine, true, but he also doesn't give a rat's ass about Israel. He cares about himself, and will say or so anything to gain support and acclaim. He's making this threat solely because it plays well to his donors.
THAT'S the scary part. If the authoritarians didn't exist in our midst, he'd be a middle manager somewhere, instead of a contender for the office of President, again. THAT'S what we need to address, and the history of the past 30 or so years shows that getting a Democrat in office doesn't fix anything. Electing Biden won't make the authoritarians go away, which is why we're back with as rematch of the 2020 election, with our democratic institutions four years weaker, and the vulnerable people in our society more scared and more under threat.
Who's going to beat them in 2028?
They're going to be dead or drinking fruit puree from a straw in 2028 both are at the end of their intellectual lives and being president heavily shortens what energy you have left. Neither will be doing much at all in 4 years. It's why you should be looking at who the VPs are.
Well, my whole point here is that DJT is a symptom of the much deeper disease. It won't be him in 2028. It will be another authoritarian, and we can count on that.
O absolutely, I don't see the repubs going away from the continued drive right and unfortunately because of this, i don't see the dems moving to a more progressive platform.
I can't wait to be deported back to Michigan.
I called that one a couple of weeks ago.
Is this supposed to be a full article? I'm confused by its brevity.
They forgot to get ai to fill it with irrelevant bullshit
You are correct
Convincing people that no matter who you vote for, we'll keep paying for the genocide is not a good strategy.
All that will do is make empathetic people not vote, and when turnout is low, republicans win.
Dems can't run in fear based politics about what the other side wants to do, the people that shit works on are already Republicans.
Dem voters want to hear about what Dems will do to help.
It is very very hard to change that, because it's literally how our brains work.
Dems tend to have larger prefrontal cortex (empathy and critical thinking) while Republicans have waaaay more amygdala activity (fear, flight/fright/freeze).
What appeals to one group, doesn't appeal to the other. But both groups cater to conservatives and hope they can guilt trip high empathy voters.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-human-beast/201104/conservatives-big-fear-brain-study-finds
https://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.neuropsych.16030051
The people running the Dem party need to learn some fucking empathy and realize just because deep down they're closer to conservatives than liberals, and that voters aren't motivated by the same shit.
I mean, we could just replace party leaders with empathetic people who understand their voters, but I'm not holding my breath.
Did you seriously just turn trump talking about deporting us citizens because they are saying something he doesn't like into "but here is why the democrats suck"?
Democrats do need a clearer distinction between themselves and Republicans on this issue.
If the Dems only standard is:
While I agree it's good to at least maintain that, it's not enough to get the votes need to beat Trump.
It barely worked when he was in office, why wouldn't 24 be more like 16 than 20?
I don't think people understand that when the candidates are as bad as Biden and trump, that being an incumbent is a disadvantage.
If you think people want Biden as president, you're not paying attention
This isn't about Biden or Trump, at least not directly. This is about trying to save as many Palestinian lives as possible, assuming you actually care about them and aren't just using them for political points.
The ideal situation is that the war ends and Israel completely fucks off. But the ideal solution is not a viable option currently. One candidate is keeping the status quo while criticizing Israel, or and the other candidate wants to intensifying the bombings and attacks on civilians and praises Israel.
Forget the names behind the candidates. Are you truly telling me that there's no difference between these two candidates, and that one option does not kill countless more Palestinians than the other option?
That will never happen with Biden.
I don't know why you don't understand it, maybe you're just too used to his actions never following his words?
But he's been saying nothing will ever lessen his support for Israel for about 50 years now...
This is one of his few promises he's definitely keeping.
I know that'll never happen. That's why I said it's an ideal that won't happen. What I'm talking about is picking the candidate who'll kill fewer Palestinians and may listen to reason, over the one who'll crush any dissent over the war and urge Netanyahu to continue.
Biden has spent literally 50 years in office and has been saying nonstop nothing would ever erode his support of Israel...
Nothing
And his actions back up his words here.
You think it's a coincidence this is happening while he's US president and Netanyhu was about to be ousted from power?
You know the bulk of the killing in concentration camps was when the nazis knew they were going to lose?
Bibi and his extremists were going to lose power, somehow one the planets biggest intelligence agencies let an attack thru on the anniversary of an attack during a music festival blocks away from the border?
I'm not saying Israel orchestrated it, but they definitely turned a blind eye to a perfect recipe for an attack and used it as an excuse to commit a genocide while they still had the power to do so.
And Biden spending 50 years saying he will unilaterally support Israel over everything certaintly played into any discussions about how this would go. Along with trump being the opponent being pretty much the only way Dem voters would vote for a Dem who wants to fund a genocide and crack down on his own voters for protesting.
This shit isn't ok.
How do you propose we communicate that to DNC and Biden while shutting up and voting for Biden?
I think there is very much an argument for working to get Democrats we actually WANT to vote for down ballot so that we actually have someone "good" in 4 years.
Having the other candidate openly talk about violating the rights of a significant part of the country is not that moment. And the fact that you want to turn this into an attack on the Democrats makes me REALLY suspicious of what your actual motives are.
This is Trump's 3rd election...
Why are Dems still running unpopular candidates like Biden?
If all that matters is beating trump like they've been saying for over a decade, why dont we run a candidate that's popular with voters?
Why run an old conservative just because trump is worse?
You know this isn't the norm right? Do you not remember Bill and Obama's first campaigns?
That's the type of campaign we need, otherwise there's a good chance Biden loses.
You can be mad at it, it you can accept it. But Biden isn't popular due to his words and actions
Because he's the sitting President and leader of the Democratic party. I don't understand why this simple fact is so hard to understand.
There's only one person who can decide Biden shouldn't be the nominee and that's Biden. See Johnson in '68. Johnson chose to step aside.
Obama was HEAVILY criticized for his, quite frankly excessive, use of drones in assassinations.
And Clinton had a LONG history of controversies even before he ran for office.
Regardless, Biden is the incumbent. Replacing him is the Democrats saying that they have no faith in the president.
Again, there is a lot of reason to discuss how to salvage the Democratic Party. But not really one where the opposition is talking about illegally deporting protesters.
Keep this up and people will assume you are just a dumbass tankie who is regurgitating Russian and CCP talking points.
They were young and charismatic...
No one said they were perfect but they were popular with voters.
Biden isn't young, and he's not charismatic. So he's not popular with voters.
Are you forgetting how close 2020 was? Don't be fooled when vote totals go up, they always go up with population. But even to get trump actively out of office, Biden pulled an embarrassing percent of eligible voters.
This election he's less popular, and frankly he didn't really have any room to spare.
You're talking about this like reality matters, not perception.
And next time, at least put your insults at the front, I wouldn't have typed all that if I'd seen it.
You’re 1000% correct with this analysis
This is what’s so disheartening about the modern day DNC, as this seems to be their only campaign strategy since 2016. In a way, what they’re actually doing is normalizing and manufacturing consent for the repugnantcon platform.
“Not Trump” is the lowest possible bar, and the most pathetic part about it is sometimes Biden manages to fall short of it. Get off the fear based bs and lead with some substance Dems!
I voted for Howie Hawkins
Great that you voted, but third party basically throws your vote away in a first-past-the-post system.
Let's look at three situations:
Scenario 1:
D: 1001 votes R: 1000 votes H: 0 votes
D wins
Scenario 2:
D: 1000 votes R: 1000 votes H: 1 vote
Tied election, decided by the House, so R wins
Scenario 3:
D: 999 votes R: 1001 votes H: 2 votes
R wins
This is why it makes enormous sense to avoid third parties in most of the US, and choose the major-party candidate you'd rather negotiate with.
I live in NY. My vote doesn't matter anyway.
There are a ton of congressional, state, and local races where it matters
Yes, Trump agrees with neoliberals regarding anti-genocide protesters.
::: spoiler spoiler asdfasfasfasfas :::
https://www.reddit.com/r/neoliberal/comments/ggu3wr/im_governor_jared_polis_of_colorado_former/
Yet, Jared Polis identifies as neo liberal. And identifies Pete Buttigieg as one too.
It's the 'kind face' of colonial capitalism. In my opinion. Fascism the scary face. Both lead to corporate feudalism as far as I can tell. One faster and with less chance to use democracy to improve conditions for the poor through safety nets and unions.
But people aren't all one thing. Biden has shown that with his relationship with unions.
::: spoiler spoiler asdfasfasfasfas :::
That's fair. I've always been a bit surprised that Jared Polis self identifies that way tbh.
::: spoiler spoiler asdfasfasfasfas :::
They do seem to be of the opinion that it's attached to the wrist of God, yes.
Trump is worse. This doesn't paint Biden any better for standing by spectating people's bloodlines being wiped away. You can yell at leftists all you want. The infinite loop of comprising your morals got people here not people wanting to change direction for something better. "We can vote Biden then focus on the next election for something better." We all heard that one before.
You don't fix our fptp system by throwing away your vote for POTUS. For even if it magically works, and a third party wins, it will just quickly revert back to two parties. It solves nothing and is just a dumb vanity vote. The POTUS vote now is a strategic one.
If you want to fix the system, you work from the bottom up to get the way we vote changed.
strategic voting is what leads to party consolidation.
Yes, humans acting rationally in a fptp system is what leads to a two party system. This is exactly the point. Or are you arguing that people should just vote randomly?
being locked into a two-party system is not rational.
Agreed. But that really has nothing to do with the point; it's not a "lock" it's just what is going to happen when people act rationally.
You don't fix FPTP with blind loyalty either. That gets you where we are, right back in the gilded age.
I said nothing about blind loyalty, only about strategically using your vote in the presidential election.
Yet you demand it so stridently.
Vote strategically = you must be loyal
I guess. Lol
Funny how it always turns out you have to hold your nose and vote for the "correct" person even if you vehemently disagree with them.
If you want change here, it comes from the bottom up. But likely the most effort you want to put in is vainly checking the box next to a third party for POTUS: no effort but you can fool yourself into believing you've made a statement.
You guys always say that as a way to dismiss criticism. But I find the people who aren't willing to vote for genocide are more activated. We're marching and organizing. This isn't 2020 with the green party or libertarians. We aren't trying to get Jill Stein elected. We're trying to tell the democrats they can't take us for granted.
I've said nothing about you criticizing anyone.
This is the second time you've grossly misrepresented my point.
Why do you feel the need to be so dishonest in "defense" if your position?
Are you multiple people posting from the same account? Did you check the thread?
Where did I say anything about you not being allowed to criticize anyone? It's sounds like you are accusing me of being multiple people because other posters have made some argument that I did not... Which is quite frankly nuts.
People have been saying this for over 40+ years and liberals have lead the direction of the party with no results for working class people. If there was ever a time to show you're not locked into the duopoly now would be the time between two genocidal old men. People would suck it up and vote for Biden if at least attempted to show some backbone and stand for something. But every time he gets the chance he just works with Right Wingers on some bipartisan bs adopting their policies and direction.
You completely ignored my point and just reiterated the same talking points.
If you want to change the system, it's not done by voting for a third party for POTUS. As I said, doing so is just vanity and does nothing to fix the problem. The problem is solved at the grassroots level.
You don't like the rules, neither do I. But the solution to changing the rules is not to not play the game, but to work to change the rules where the rule changes actually happen. Not playing the game just helps the least desirable team win.
Nobody has said to skip the work of working from the bottom in state and local elections. People do support those campaigns and even when they do they have to fight against Dems and GOP locking them out of being choices there as well. The infinite loop of picking the nicer fascist isn't doing anything as well.
That's the whole point: your goal to change how we can reasonably vote in the POTUS vote, does not happen when electing the POTUS, so expecting electing the POTUS to change this makes no sense.
It has to come from elsewhere. While I strong disagree with the classification, you're stuck voting for the "nicer fascist" less you end up with the worse fascist.
The US has also been an inherently conservative country for 40+ years, and it is only just now gaining a substantial left wing presence.
It is only since the Internet went wide that leftists in the US have been able to get unbiased attention. We were always here, but it's hard when even MSNBC compared your ideas to dictators in the 1990's and 2000's before jumping on the bandwagon (but only if private corporations can get their middle man profiteering on).
You're thinking of things wrong and it's leading you to silly conclusions.
Voting for president is not about voting for the person that will solve of our problems.
Stop looking to the state to solve our problems, that is not it's purpose, it does not have this ability.
Real problems are solved by people.
Voting for U.S. president is a strategic choice we're allowed every four years, choose the option that makes your life and/or job easier. If you're really concerned about genocide, choose the option for president that will make your job of anti-war activist easier and safer.
Understand that many of your anti-war allies are LGBTQ, and that if Trump wins, he is almost certainly going to make it much harder for your allies to survive, let alone be activists. Why would you throw your allies under the bus to make an ideological point like 16 people on Lemmy will see?
I don't know about them but I don't care about 16 people on Lemmy. I care about 16 people in charge of the democrats. I want them to see they cannot hold power without the left.
Ok, I get that, but if the Democrats don't win, who does? Obviously the Republicans right? Is that an improvement? If Republicans destroy democracy (as they have been crystal clear about), what use is sending messages relevant to electoral politics?
If we can only vote for one party then democracy is already dead. Then what's the point of voting at all?
The point of voting is not to choose the candidate that will fix everything and give up if there isn't one, it's to choose the the option that will make your life easier, even if just a little. If you want the world to be a better place, one candidate will make your job risky and dangerous by putting left wingers in prison and supporting right wing violence, the other wont. Why make your life/job harder because you're upset or frustrated? Why harm your LGBTQ comrades with your apathy?
Genocide Trump: Yes Biden: Yes
Make life hell for LGBTQ at home in the U.S. Trump: Yes Biden: No
The Democrats"fix" less and less every time we elect them. The bus isn't going towards any stops I want to take. It's going the other way, following the red line. I've tried filing complaints but they just go into the void. So I think it's time for a new bus.
Me too, but jumping off a running bus onto flaming mini van full idiots isn't going to help anyone.
Everything you hate about Biden is still going to be there under Trump only worse, and Trump is the only other option at this moment. You want better choices in the future, run for office, encourage people to run for office. As long as people like you are encouraging good people to forfeit electoral politics, only the worst people are going to be available as options to vote for.
We already had our chances at good people. The Democrats kept that from happening. At this point I'm really starting to believe the only choice is to back up, and protest how we elect presidents in the first place. It doesn't seem to produce a representative of the people. And the more people tell me I have to vote for Biden because of Boogeyman, the more sure I am.
Again, you're right, how we elect presidents is fucked up and needs to change. Is making that change going to be easier under Trump? Because that's who's going to be president if Biden loses. Is changing how we elect presidents going to be easier when anyone willing to be an activist to accomplish it gets arrested? You think protest arrests are bad now, just wait until an actual fascist is in charge and your friends start disappearing.
People are getting arrested now. And we already dealt with people disappearing. Look up Homan Square.
The stuff you are threatening us with is already happening.
That's what I mean, a few people being disappeared in a particularly crazy summer of nationwide protests years ago is way better than it being the norm for anyone that doesn't agree with the Trump admin.
Do you not understand degrees of harm and think that since Biden isn't a perfect communist than he is no different than an full on fascist dictatorship? Do you hate you mom like Hitler if she doesn't give you Cheetos for dinner?
So he's gonna duplicate what's going on right now?
Are you familiar with republican foreign policy?
Yes, it looks exactly like Democrat foreign policy, Republicans and Democrats use the same US imperialistic agenda to retain their power and dominance over other countries. When they both use people like Henry Kissinger as a foreign policy advisor, the end game is still the same
Keep it going! They are the same because history! They both USED Kissinger!
Foreign policy is clearly beyond your grasp.
With your approach… The end game seems to be ignorance.
Nuland, Blinken, Sullivan all have the same approach to foreign policy. Expand US imperialism and the interests of capital while slaughtering civilians.
They have so been slaughtered! This approach to US imperialism has totally solved for your concern.
::: spoiler spoiler asdfasfasfasfas :::
So the difference is that Trump will drop a MOAB and kill hundreds..
And Biden will send 300,000 massive bombs to a genocidal warlord to kill tens of thousands?
I'm not trying to defend Trump, but I'm confused by your logic.
If that's what you think, it's readily apparent that you don't actually care about Palestinians, you just want to use them to score political points.
If you actually want to help then and prevent as many of their deaths as possible, your choice is clear. If you had the option to pull two levers, where one would keep the status quo and one would save just one Palestinian life, which would you pull?
I oppose the status quo, as anyone with a conscience should
If your only options were the status quo or things getting worse, you'd pick things getting worse?
Red and blue are defenders of the status quo. The DNC always providing a rotating villain to be afraid of enables their power and keeps the status quo protected
It must be nice living in a world where the DNC is all that's keeping us from achieving progressive goals, and that if they went away, all of our problems would be solved.
It's an ignorant but comfortable worldview, isn't it? All we have to do is beat the rotating villain and the DNC and then we'll get everything we want and a happy ending. The bad status quo will go away and everyone will agree with us because our ideas are the best.
It needs to be replaced with a party that actually represents the people. There's no room in the country for two right-wing parties and that's what we currently have