"So long as I'm free to exploit you into subsistence, you're free to die in the gutter when you're too broken to produce value for me!"
-The capitalists destroying us and the habitability of the world for any future humans, solely to run up their ego scores.
I'm about three-quarters through Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged, and I wonder how she would interpret how reality played out in this country, being that her biggest fears would come from the value system she thought of as the solution.
They always double down with a no true Scotsman defense that we didn't go far enough or didn't implement the idea in full. This kicks the can down the line to ensure further exploitation.
We all sit back and act like we know how to fix it all but really we don't. What we do know, and what we need everyone to understand, this ain't it. Everything else we are capable of improving given the flexibility to make nessisary change and allocating the resources to appropriate people who have real philosophies and experience to make the change. Getting everyone on board needs to happen first.
How? How? How?
Stop listening. Stop listening to the internet. Stop listening to cable TV. If someone says nothing is wrong and nothing needs to change they are benefiting from the purposefully broken system. Stop listening.
Listen to your neighbor. Listen to the teachers. Listen to community's. Once we can do all that. Then we need to unite all communities under the common goal of providing rest. The builders have built. The creatives have created. The workers have worked. Now they need to rest. They need to heal. They need to raise children who know what a bright future looks like so they can appreciate this life and their own humanity.
Now, everyone panic and tune out because sadly, I've given you an impossible task and you will never overcome your own programming.
Then we need to unite all communities under the common goal of providing rest.
"How? How? How?"
First step is to organize. Join an organization, any organization, or form your own.
First step is to organize.
Then what?
Then, that social movement (organization) puts forth it’s own candidate(s) to displace the corrupt government.
LOL
There is a reason Marxists promote reading history and philosophical theory; because the class struggle has been going on for a long time, and there is much we can learn about our current situation from those that wrote about their experiences in the past.
The issue was how to unite all communities under the common goal of providing rest, not how to learn while suffering. Everyone already knows how to do that. You have nothing to offer.
Because you are too lazy and stubborn to put in the work to change society, it doesn’t mean others have nothing to offer. What do you offer? Questions and pessimistic negativity? You are the reason we’re not allowed to rest. Get humble, stop looking for someone to save you and save yourself.
Let me guess your response:
How?
You’re like a child refusing to clean their room, so they can have ice cream. It’s always someone else’s fault and never your responsibility to make life better. You are a net drain on humanity. Prove me wrong and read some Marx.
you are too lazy and stubborn to put in the work to change society
Uh.. u wot?
You have no idea what I have done or do. You have no idea whether I'm lazy, how could you.
Questions and pessimistic negativity?
I find it sad and bizarre that you view reason and attempts at clear communication as bad. If you had something concrete to offer I would certainly be optimistic but all you seem to have is deluded echoes of Marx's "wouldn't it be nice if" dreams.
Sorry, didn’t mean to be presumptive. So you’ve read Marx. What books or pamphlets have you read?
identify excesses fo power that do not work in the national interest and figure out what stable system can be put in place to regulate those excesses down to lower levels as effectively as possible. simples. /s
regulate banks so that they invest more of your savings in businesses and services that your country needs for your future. (this is a very long term fix as they've spent 40-50 years divesting from your society).
regulate capital gains so that business can not meet shareholder needs with asset price bubbles, only dividends.
regulate dividends too. (aim is as Keynes said to avoid "whirlpools of speculation" and see only "bubbles" on a steady stream of investment).
nominal transaction tax (tobin tax), and transaction delay times for all exchanges to stop stock markets being ran so fucking stupidly they do not need to trade that much that often
dissociate commercial banks from building societies separate and minimise home loans- but regulate house prices to prevent mortgage bubble. (/ust accept low gdp growth , gdp is fucking made up number)
basically do a load of FDR bank regulation stuff that got scrapped in the 70s/80s under dubious pretexts.
better to promote localised banking and local lending coops and such, then the power to make businesses loans is held closer to the savers and borrowers, and can be more accountable just by being a closer group that interacts mmore frequently.
regulate scarce situations that are hard to replicate , rent controls in centre of town or near transit (or other land use regualtion).
try to manage away property bubbles - this is part of the reason businesses become uncompetetive, along with all the other stuff that pushes up cost fo living.
Of course regulation is difficult, prone to corruption, as al) the freedoomers will say.
It is after all an excess of power - but it it not the only one and might be the only one with a chance of reducing the ppower of the others unles you cound bloody revolutions every now and again that also end up investing a new set of powerful people..
And it doesn't help that one of your(assuming i'm talking to usa by context) parties just works solely on behalf of al those power mongers that most need regulation; their real neat trick,"govt is shit", "look at us we're govt", "you'd better reduce the power of regulators in case you elect idiots like us again"
And that line of reasoning is so successful that the other party imitates it.
So you need a way to make the regulators accountable, and elections are not a necessarily the best way to improve regulation , but they can be part of a wider system to hold the regulatros to account.
On a more local scale , something like having to explain themselves and their decisions to random anonymous juries.
They should also, as public officials have to submit their income and weath statements to the jury of the people to try to demostrate no bribery.
you dont need perfect, just a framework where it can improve bit by bit, and gradually weed out those with excess power orwho abuse it. which basically needs transparency and accountability at a level and frequency that matches the circumstances at hand.
Oh man seething sarcasm, I'm great at this.
These ideas are actually good. I can't imagine why they won't be implemented immediately.
haha.
yeah clinical depression is the most realistic outcome.
I don't pretend to know the full and total solution, but I do know what need to happen... but I know the historical flashpoints tsld to at has so often forced these issues? Th
Just read theory, it's not that hard, and people have been discussing how to get out of this Capitalist hellhole for hundreds of years.
You cant even see there is something fundamentally missing, that being the call to action. People rather endlessly argue about for hundreds of years.
You mean just vibing a revolution into action?
That's why I am recommending you read theory. For the why of Capitalism's inevitable demise, Wage Labor and Capital and Value, Price and Profit both do a much better job of actually explaining the inherent unsustainability of Capitalism.
I mean, not treading the same path. I mean defying what we think is the inevitability. Human brains are capable of great things but they are not capable of predicting the future. The future needs to be shaped and molded real time.
Your incredgulousness is so fucking bizarre. You see the same thing day after day, with no changeand you are upset. And I tell you change needs to just go ahead and happen. And you rather it not.
You're misreading me. Change happens every day. Socialism is the answer
Make socialism happen then
By vibing it into existence? Can't. It must be built through organizing and revolution.
Read theory.
... if you have no will to make it happen. It won't happen.
Say I "read theory" what will that change??
Name one thing that will change other then one more person subscribing to lofty ideas that are nothing more than lofty ideas.
You're the one out here "Vibing to make it happen."
I expect nothing of you. Blood from a stone. Lead a horse to water. Anon posts in the woods and no one's around to upvote.
Who says I don't have will? You can't vibe material conditions into changing, expecting Socialism to be built by the will of the people is idealism.
You have to build it, with your hands.
I see what's happening here. You want me to absolve you. I asked for people to be conscious of their community and start working towards a common goal. Luckily for you im the absolving fairy.
Let's start the magic. Whoosh. Whoosh. It's surrounding you now.
The idea that people need to work towards a common goal together is illogical.Only brute force can tame the masses.
You've got a chicken and egg problem here. If you don't provide any solutions why would anybody follow you? You need an idea for people to get onboard with. Currently leftists mostly don't know what they want, just that it isn't this. How is that supposed to convince anyone? You can't just say the current system doesn't work then not provide any viable alternatives. Lots of people know the current system isn't great, but they see it as the best system we have because essentially it is until someone comes up with something that doesn't turn into the CCP or USSR.
This is your programming speaking. Fear, uncertainty, doubt.
People don't unite under solutions. They unite under ideas.
There are a million fucking problems, each require their own solution. Each need to be defined, examined, and tested. No one can sit there and say, "just do this."
The work we are doing, and the work that needs done are in opposition to each other. Right now we are working to feed the system. We need to be working on maintaining the system to feed the people.
There are a million fucking problems, each require their own solution. Each need to be defined, examined, and tested. No one can sit there and say, "just do this."
This is obvious and I never claimed otherwise. You are reading things into what I have said that aren't there. Different solutions will always be needed for different problems in different contexts. That's like engineering 101, and should be applied to politics and economics more.
I don't care what you claim. It's not helpful. It's not having any impact. Change course.
And you think you are? Literally one of the most salty people I have met. You aren't convincing anyone.
You haven't met me, you don't know me, this is an anonymous forum. I could be a salty dog or maybe a limp dick like you but I won't change a damn thing.
I know how you are acting now, and you are acting like an insane person or a troll, or maybe both.
... this need inside you to "win" or "be right" its.... pathetic.
Solutions start with ideas. If you are someone who can't turn an idea into a workable solution then why would I follow you? The world is full of people who want to be idea people, yet they have no understanding of practical reality. That's another thing that's missing from the current leftist movements: understanding of practical reality.
Also I would stop generalising people. I follow solutions, not just ideas. That's how any engineer should think. After all we are the people who turn lofty goals into reality.
Leftists are at their best when they can see practical problems that everyday people have, and explain why they happen in the context of the larger system and its flaws. Some leftists are great at this. What you need to do is take the next step and propose how you could change, improve, or replace the system and how that would solve the current problems without creating bigger ones. If you can't do that then ultimately you aren't going to win in the end, even if you manage to get popular support, even with a revolution.
This is again another type of programing. People arent an engineering problem. Politics will never be removed from emotion.
I've told my solution but you instead want a silver bullet. Everyone wants a silver bullet. The silver bullet doesn't exist and will never come.
We need to build our communities stronger, and need to stop being divided by people with obscene wealth; the people with something to lose if we do just that. Thats what will get us to the next obstacle.
Instead you will wait around for a charismatic leader with the answer to all your problems. Who has come to save us all.
I’ve told my solution but you instead want a silver bullet. Everyone wants a silver bullet.
You haven't though, just said some vague phrases and hinted that if everyone else just thought like you the problem would resolve itself.
Know how I know you are completely fucked in the head? You think you can fustrate me more than I am already frustrated with the current state of things. We are rock bottom. There is one way out. If you want to stay in the mouse trap you are going to stay in the mouse trap. Nothing I say or do will lead you out.
We are at rock bottom.
Hahaha, oh no friend it's going to get so much worse.
That's the thing. Where we are on the path, or cycle, of human suffering doesn't matter. You have to break the wheel.
Again that's a nice sounding statement that means nothing.
I tell people as often as I can, especially my trans and bipoc friends; now is the time. Get a couple guns (a long one and a short one) and learn how to use them. Learn some basic first aid, you really just need to know how to stabilize someone. Start networking with like-minded people in your communities. The police will not protect us, they’ve proven they’ll happily club senior citizens to the ground and shoot any protesters in the face with rubber bullets while escorting a rightwing murderer to safety.
Iran was a secular, liberal state until almost 1980 when they (mostly legitimately) elected an Islamist theocracy; it could happen here.
99% of social media doesn't mean anything, it is people attempting to influence you in the easiest way possible. Sure if 80% slip through the cracks who cares but the 20% represents millions. Turn it off. Build strong bonds with your community and kick anyone to the curb that says things should stay the same.
I am asking for solutions, not some perfect leader. We have seen how leftist ideas of charismatic leaders go, and I don't want another Lenin, Stalin, or Kim Jong Un. The fact that you jump to the conclusion that solutions = charismatic leader tells me a lot about how you think about politics. Believe it or not not all ideas, systems, and solutions come from the same person. Science isn't a cult of Sir Isaac Newton so why should politics be this way? Heck why do we even have a single powerful position like President or Prime Minister or King?
Also no you haven't provided any solutions. All you have done is provide excuses as to why you do not need any. I am not asking for a magic bullet here. I understand that real life systems are necessarily complex and multi-faecited. That's why having a single leader or person in charge isn't a smart idea. You can't ask a single human to have a grasp on the whole of society and all its problems, performance metrics, or trade-offs.
I haven't provided the solution. Get fucked. HUMANITY hasn't provided the solution, and it wont! Because if the goal is to have us both walk 100 miles that way and you won't get off your ass until you think of some shit way to do it, it doesn't matter if I ride a fucking dinosaur to Timbukto. Short of knocking you on your ass and carrying you there, I can do nothing for the cause.
Are you okay? How is this in anyway a response to what I have said. You are just being rude, and acting like a troll.
Your programming told you to exact a thought terminating quip because I challenged your paper thin grasp on reality. Next you will seek affirmation.
Your programming told you to expect a thought terminating quip because I challenged your paper thin grasp on reality.
Not at all. You haven't demonstrated you have any grasp on reality. All you've proven is you aren't willing to behave rationally and are probably insane.
Next you will seek affirmation.
Why would I seek affirmation from someone who is nuts?
and are probably insane.
Why would I seek affirmation from someone who is nuts?
And to top it all off, in order to preserve the only thing they have left - their freedom - they want to hand the country over to a dictator. It just doesn't get any more oxymoronic than that.
Fascism is the logical endpoint of capitalism. Just look up the largest German companies, then what they did between 1933 and 1945.
There is an amazing video by a Youtuber called Fredda about Coca Cola in Nazi Germany which goes over how the company worked during that time period and afterwards.
Last Week Tonight did an overview of Fanta being Nazi Coca-Cola. Pretty sure that was their first season too.
Communism is on the left end of the political spectrum. Fascism is on the right end.
To be fair, communism as seen under Stalin and fascism aren't too different, horseshoe theory. Pulling the definition of fascism from wikipedia: "a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy."
Dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation, strong regimentation of the economy, you could see all of those things while Stalin was in power and many continued on subsequent USSR leaders.
It's no wonder George Orwell, a democratic socialist, saw the USSR and said "fuck no, I don't want that shit"
Bolsheviks were the most extreme faction, and bred authoritarianism into their movement. Wilson fucked things up for us there. I don't consider Lenin or Stalin to be communists. They are authoritarian dictators. That's antithetical to communist ideologies. I understand that the perception may be skewed, but no one thinks that North Korea is a democratic republic, despite their name.
That's a myth peddled by Americans.
Tell me you've never read communist theory, without telling me you've never read communist theory.
You realize that even The Christ was a communist? He literally told his followers to live in communes and share.
Lol ok. Brainwashing is hard in you.
Your projection would be hilarious if it wasn’t so embarrassing
Thanks for the link. I'd heard the expression in this context before, but never knew where it originated
Shareholders Uber Alles
Ü
No ü
Don't forget depression, anxiety and thought crime caused by social media addiction
All communist social-media addicts are always hsppy for the rest of their lives, of course! The addiction can't be the issue, it has to be capitalism!
Hey, I became a lot more hopeful for the future after reading Marx. Capitalism does indeed suck, but it's unsustainable.
The problem Marx didn't foresee is that capitalism can sustain itself until it destroys us all. In Nazi Germany, this left the country a bombed out pile of rubble. In modern times, it's global warming.
Marx definitely foresaw that possibility, his conclusions are more that if there aren't grand wars or famines eliminating everyone, Capitalism itself cannot last forever, which is far more comforting than assuming socialism can vibe itself into existence.
Lemmy is made by actual communists, so let's not pretend communism would somehow fix that.
Yea, these are the real communists, not like all those other communists, with their fake communism.
Well, if you ask any communist, they’ll tell you that real communism has never been tried, which implies that all other communists are fake.
That last bit is all conservatives care about keeping though.
They care about keeping the guns because they can't see they are one stupidity away from the guns being used on them. All it will take is all those idiots believing something bad about their leadership. Something that may not even have a shred of truth. After all once a regressive starts thinking somethings true, no truth will every sway them from the lie.
Being 'left' is being pro 2A, fumbled it there at the end.
I’m seeing a lot more libs understanding what 2A is really for. Preventing success of things like January 6.
Citizens will not stop a coup attempt using guns. You're watching too many movies. Be realistic.
Idk it seems like everytime a trained, well-equipped military goes up against a bunch of farmers the military loses so I'm not sure I agree with you.
Right, when was the last time that happened on us soil again?
Also, do you actually see Americans as some kind of guerilleros? With current obesity numbers, there's no hiding in improvised shelters for most. Let alone simple but crucial things like "running". Did you think of how the country isn't totally unknown to the military, negating one of the major advantages for defenders in past such situations?
By all means, do not agree with me. You can't convince me you actually believe us citizens have a fighting chance against the fucking us military, though. Absolutely delusional!
Students of history disagree. Remember when they told us we'd smash Vietnam in a month? Remember when they said the same thing about Iraq? You can come up with all the "but it's different this time!" you like, I agree we probably won't come to an agreement on this, have a nice day.
Why are you ignoring my questions? I don't remember anybody saying "Iraqis are probably too fat and complacent for guerilla tactics". "Students of history" won't disagree that there's a huge difference between the 1970s us army fighting guerilleros in Vietnam and the 21st century us army fighting a bunch of tacticool idiots on us soil.
Did you notice that your only argument is "nah, it wouldn't be different" without any substantiation?
Why are you ignoring my questions?
I don't owe you an argument. I've stated my position and you've stated yours. Have a nice Friday.
I made an argument and you went "nuh-uh!" Sorry I tried to have a conversation with you, I guess. Maybe reflect on what you expect from making online comments.
Actually you made the statement "Citizens will not stop a coup attempt using guns. You’re watching too many movies. Be realistic." And I replied idk farmers seem to have a pretty good track record. Then you doubled down to start arguing which I'm not interested in because it's been discussed a million times and we likely will not come to an agreement. So again, have a nice Friday.
Yeah, I remember how you conflated Jan 6 with a military invasion. I then explained (argued even, you might say) how the scenario you're referencing has little in common with the us military engaging fat gun enthusiasts on us soil, to which you replied "nuh-uh!"
Now that we're all up to speed, can you elaborate on how you imagine citizens stop an actual military coup? Tanks are rolling up to seize the white house and there's Kevin (a farmer!!) with both his AR15s, a Desert Eagle and really cool shades. What's happening next in your fantasy?
My fear (not fantasy) is a truckload of redhatted MAGAts rolling into my (liberal, gay, city) neighborhood and taking potshots a the local "lifestyle center" while the police look the other way or pat them on the back and buy them Burger King on the way out. You wanna talk about gun control cool but that's a way different conversation than anyone is having right now, now kindly piss off.
WDYM, it's not like the structural problems of capitalism would favor fascists if we provide a market for buying guns. It's not like fascists are the ones with more money and time from owning a business or something. I would totally show up to defend my country from a coup as long as it coincides with my work break. /s
Do you think that allowing millions of illegals into the country puts no pressure on the housing market?
Imagine being so fed up with propaganda to the point of believing that immigrants are causing the housing market prices to go to the moon, completely ignoring the companies, trust funds and banks essentially repeating 2008 all over again, but slightly different, buying houses and apartments as "safe investment"
Please correct me if I'm wrong, and IANAL, but my understanding is that to own land (which would contain a house), in a country, you need to have a contract with the government where the land is, thereby identifying yourself as a foreigner.
It would seem that if this insane claim was actually a problem, where foreign persons were buying homes and then living in them, illegally in the USA for an extended period of time, that such a problem would be easy to solve?
"This home has been occupied by a Spanish speaking family, and it's owned by a Mexican citizen" would be a good reason for border services to go knock on the door and be like, who the hell are you people and do you have the legal right to be in the country?
IDK, but it feels like a problem that would fix itself.
Also, most illegal immigrants are fleeing their country with little more than the clothes on their back, nevermind enough cash to buy a house. I'm sure some rich people can do this but are they really the problem? If they want to live in the country and spend their wealth here, why would we want to stop them?
The whole argument is nonsensical to me.
Even if everything you say is true, where does this leave us in ~20 years when all of the children born here, who are now citizens, enter the housing market? Or the illegals who are granted citizenship which includes Dreamers plus any future actions?
I feel like illegal immigrants is less of a problem than you think it is.
But you're talking about the effects that would happen over multiple generations, all of whom come from essentially poverty conditions.
I am unable to count the number of people who became middle class from a poverty class family, because I'm not aware that it has ever happened. So any children of illegal immigration, who were born in the country who is now a citizen would probably fall into the poorest rentals and communities, which isn't capable of home ownership.
I'm middle class and I had to pair up with another family to break the cycle of violence that is renting. I'm 40 and I'll be 65 by the time we pay off the mortgage, at which time any savings from the mortgage is likely going to need to be fed into surviving, because inflation will have likely spiked the cost of everything to the point where we need that money just to buy food. I understand that's anecdotal, though I have seen others with similar stories. The only people I know of that are doing okay, bought a house in, or directly after college when the average price of a home was half of what it is now.
So if you ask me if these people are raising house prices, my answer is no, because the vast majority of them are impoverished. Those that are not, can afford the time, cost, and effort to go through the proper immigration process, and they become citizens.
Simply: rich/middle class foreigners are immigrating legally. Poor immigrants are coming over illegally with nothing, and given how ruthless our society is, they will not escape poverty in our lifetimes, and likely not in the lifetimes of our children, or their children. By the time they "become a problem" for the housing market, they will be 3rd or 4th generation citizens at a minimum, using their meager generational wealth to finally hoist themselves out of poverty.
That’s not what I asked. It’s a complex issue. Nobody is feeding into propaganda but conversely you seem to have your heels dug in and are not open to discussion.
Do you think that making immigration so difficult so that you create an underclass of workers below your citizenry you can domestically super-exploit for super-profits is causing housing issues?
I think we need immigration and I support it. We need to fix immigration, but not allow hundreds of thousands of unvetted persons flood across the boarder, untracked, into the country because it’s politically correct.
What does "politically correct" mean? A correct take?
I think the impact from illegal immigration is a fraction of a fraction of the impact from letting VC 'invest' in housing.
If capitalism worked, then those workers would be a flood of cheap labor that could be used to build cheap housing (among other things).
In most places under the American empire's control to varying degrees.*
so only usa?, look at europe, even in brazil we have so much shit but nothing like that, and we are usa garden
Well as long as we'll have guns then things can be turned around...
Lol, as if their Wal Mart rifles are going to help them against reaper drones.
The USA loses to people less armed than the USA all the time.
But it would be an easy war of attrition no?
How many died/almost died because Texas couldn't handle a lil iced? How long could those states last without resources from outside? How much of their materials are usable raw?
Do the "much guns" states actually have a decent bit of knowledgeable people? Being able to shoot a gun is fine and all but a war is far more than that.
The biggest worry would probably be the ones already in the military who could/would easily sabotage any efforts. And yes, drones are easily beating rifles when it comes to depleting each other's resources.
I know fuck-all about guns and war but my armchair is warmed up.
The US won all nearly all their engagements in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan. The difference was the lack of public support to keep those wars and occupations going.
You would think that the public wouldn't support a war the US wages on the public.
When half the people want it, it will.
This is it.
People keep insisting that the populace would win a war of populace against state... maybe it would, I don't know and it's not the problem.
The problem is a war of half the populace against the state and the other half of the populace. Fascism is carried into power by popular demand, it's not like one day they just appear on the levers of power and have to put up with a revolting population. They will have been put there by the population, and it will be the better armed half of the population.
The war on drugs has entered the chat
It can be done with guns or it can be done without. Can is the magic word here, and guns are optional.
You’re gonna need a nuke, big guy. You aren’t taking on the American military with your lil pea shooter.
At least if you lived in a socialist place before that naturally left you so helpless that you now wish for the heavy restrictions to be back because you rely on them.
"At least the walls of the prison kept me warm"...
What?
So "Capitalism" ( by which you mean crony Corps in league with government - a socialist system) took away socialist 'benefits' - huh.
Are you sure you are looking at the right end if the stick?
Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about?
I think the best solution is a healthy balance of socialism and capitalism.
Extremes always tend to be dangerous.
I think the best solution is a healthy balance of kindergartens and child labour factories.
Extremes always tend to be dangerous.
I think we need a blend of false equivalencies and dangerous extremes.
I know you disagree with me, but your joke was so good I had to upvote
Who's going to pay your kindergartens?
You mean market socialism
"I think we need a balance between the system that wants to oppress workers to maximise profit, and the system which wants workers to control their own lives"
I think the best solution is a healthy balance of socialism and capitalism.
Why?
Extremes always tend to be dangerous.
WHY?
Too much socialism encourage laziness, incompetence and poverty.
Too much capitalism encourage inequity, exploitation and consumerism.
I think both socialism and capitalism have their own pros and cons. But both are necessary.
Too much socialism encourage laziness, incompetence and poverty.
Does it? Says who? The Chicago school of economics?
Too much capitalism encourage inequity, exploitation and consumerism.
All Capitalism.
What good does Capitalism do?
You sound like someone that never worked in his entire life.
I hope I'm wrong.
You're very wrong, and failed to address any of my arguments or back your own claims up, it's jusy vibes and mysticism.
I didn't fail to address any argument.
If you actually worked at least once in your life, you would understand the value of working, making money, competency and being useful to society.
I think you're coping because you're useless and incompetent. You're using socialism as an escape mechanism.
You clearly have a misconception of what socialism is. Socialism does not mean sit around and collect benefits from the government. It means that workers (yes, people who WORK) own the means of production, rather than the do-nothing capitalist class which makes money parasitically from simply owning things.
On a fundamental level, socialism encourages it. And you, you seem to have a misconception of what capitalism is and how money works.
Yes, the best and most effective way to make money is by owning things and hiring people, and letting them work for you. I own a business myself.
You call it 'parasite' and that can be true to an extent when it turns evil and only profit-driven.
If you choose to be a normal wage worker that doesn't own anything, then yeah, capitalism is probably not for you. You'll be stuck in an endless rat race and feel like a slave all your life.
My advice is to stop trading your time for money and start owning things that generate money for you.
That's why I think a healthy balance of both socialism and capitalism is optimal.
"My advice is simply to not be poor and become a member of the tiny owner class, like me, that practices wage slavery on the vast majority of the rest of society. 👍"
You can't make this up
I don't practice wage slavery. I do have my own business, and I don't even have employees. I use technology and softwares as leverage.
And I'm not part of the 1% either. Far from it.
But I understand that to make money, you have to understand how money operates and work for it.
I don't think expecting the government to pay and provide for everything is a good solution.
The gov should definitely take care of some things, but not everything. Some things should be accountable to the individuals themselves.
Cool, so you're a self-proprietor, and still think you can magic the system into a bunch of self-proprietorships. Simply "understanding how money works" isn't all you need to succeed, otherwise the system would work for the vast majority rather than the vast minority.
You clearly have no actual idea what Socialism is if you think it's just welfare, it's worker ownership of the Means of Production. Directing production towards fulfilling needs and uses, rather than the profits and wealth hoarding of the few.
You do realize Lemmy was made by Communists along Communist principles, right?
I have worked, and continue to work. I understand how my labor is exploited by the bourgeois class and I do not recieve the bulk of the Value I create. I suggest reading Wage Labor and Capital and Value, Price and Profit.
I am certainly not the absolute most competent worker who ever lived, but I am definitely far more competent than the parasites exploiting me without lifting a finger.
I dont think the FED + state which printed 70% of USD money supplies during covid years has anything to do with capitalism and free market... They are anti free market and capitalism if anything...
rofl it's not communism just because the government is involved...
The US is capitalist. Full stop. Period. The government BUYS its physical currency, for fuck's sake.
You see only binary. I didnt said its communism, I said its not free market capitalism, if the state can devalue your money by half with a single action (why do you think basic groceries cost double since 2020 ?), and its not a free market capitalism, when they impose 50% tariffs on anything Chinese regarding EVs and stuff around https://apnews.com/article/biden-china-tariffs-electric-vehicles-solar-254546e92f823a78220c195a0a42a10e
They dont buy their currency, they print promissory notes, that they will repay the debt, in exchange for money. And if you still believe that US can once repay its debt, you are delusional... Especially now, as China and many others are trying to get rid of petro dolars...
"Free market capitalism" is a fairytale we tell school children. Free market capitalism would be me filling up my car with leaded gasoline before going to work at a meth plant, but also I gotta pay the toll to use the private roads.
bahaha You are the one with binary thinking... The government doesn't magically mean "not capitalist", fool. When the government spends money, it's not magically "not capitalist", either.
The US government is capitalist because they back up and enforce things for corporations' bottom line. You speak of debt as if that magically makes them not capitalist... You are quite literally ignorant on what "capitalist" even means. Sad. Pathetically sad.
It's simple, a State in Capitalist society serves the interests of the Bourgeoisie and defends Capitalism.
Capitalism naturally destroys free markets.
People miss that Adam Smith in his writing was arguing in favor of small enterprise and in favor of the government busting up monopolies
Yep, then Ricardo and later Marx built up on his theory.
The US has the largest government in the history of the world, it is not remotely pure capitalist.
It's absolutely Capitalist and additonally Imperialist. Having a government doesn't mean it isn't Capitalist, especially if the bourgeoisie controls the state, rather than the proletariat.
Who do you think the US government works for?
Many of them work for the rich, some of them have integrity, but most are just in it for their own power and benefit.
Power and benefit, also sometimes referred to with the term "capital"
Not really, its more control of people. The ability to feel power over a domain.
Which is a form of capital. Our politicians use that power for monetary profit. That shits just intrinsic to building an entire system with capitalism at it's heart like we been doing since the late 60s
You are shoehorning the word capitalism in there.
You could argue that, but are these personal benefits not just checks from lobbyists? And does this power not come largely from the leverage they gain expanding their influence in order to justify bigger checks?
I think we agree, and the only solution that I see as workable is to greatly reduce the power of the government on all levels.
Do you think the capitalists who say exactly that, have integrity? Could you name one?
The part about reducing government size?
Yes the part about reducing government size. You have project 2025 that wants to get rid of the EPA and the Department of Education. Do the billionaires support this project because they have integrity or because it's good for their bottom line?
Billionaires support larger government, undoubtedly. The more government the more their business is protected from up and coming companies. Also they want more tax money to go into the government so they can get more contracts from the government. Take a peak at the national spending on military and realize that it goes directly to billionaire run companies.
Did I say I was a big trump supporter? The EPA harms big and little business, you can like it or not.
I don't care. I am perfectly comfortable nestling into my giant pile of cold hard guns.
Sounds healthy.
Lauren Boebert levels of mental healthy.
Looks Pension and savings look like they're all there. Looks Still employed. Looks Still have free health care. Looks Still seem to be churning out graduates with pace. Looks No debt.
🤷♂️
Oh shit guys, nevermind! Rah says he's doing great! Hows Bezos? Also great? Welp, that settles it, we're gonna be ok!
The golden canary I have in this mine says: I'm gonna be rich. dies to poisonous gas
Oh yeeeah, wouldn't you know it, me and Bezos are comparable!
... And The anecdotes ride off into the sunset together, their anecdotal futures so bright, they gotta wear shades...
So things are working out for you, specifically. Great, nothing needs to change.
So things are working out for you, specifically.
I didn't say that, this meme just seems ridiculously off target.
I'm not worried about either socialism or capitalism, they're both abstract ideas. I'm much more concerned with actual, real assholes who are aplenty under both socialism and capitalism.
Hear that everyone? He’s worried about the assholes and not any cockamamie abstract ideas!
Hi everyone! :-)
Does a dance
Especially the one in the mirror.
You don’t have free healthcare, unless you don’t live in America. And if that’s the case, your comment means nothing.
your comment means nothing.
WTF?!
And if that’s the case, your comment means nothing.
That's not very socialist of you.
Where's do you live that you have a pension and free healthcare?
The golden palace in their mind.
Skinny tails on bell curves always exist.
Seriously though who the fuck still has an actual pension anymore?
I do. But that's because I'm in a union. This country needs more unions!
You are from the UK....?
He's talking about things happening with pace rather than speed, so...
"So long as I'm free to exploit you into subsistence, you're free to die in the gutter when you're too broken to produce value for me!"
-The capitalists destroying us and the habitability of the world for any future humans, solely to run up their ego scores.
I'm about three-quarters through Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged, and I wonder how she would interpret how reality played out in this country, being that her biggest fears would come from the value system she thought of as the solution.
They always double down with a no true Scotsman defense that we didn't go far enough or didn't implement the idea in full. This kicks the can down the line to ensure further exploitation.
We all sit back and act like we know how to fix it all but really we don't. What we do know, and what we need everyone to understand, this ain't it. Everything else we are capable of improving given the flexibility to make nessisary change and allocating the resources to appropriate people who have real philosophies and experience to make the change. Getting everyone on board needs to happen first.
How? How? How?
Stop listening. Stop listening to the internet. Stop listening to cable TV. If someone says nothing is wrong and nothing needs to change they are benefiting from the purposefully broken system. Stop listening.
Listen to your neighbor. Listen to the teachers. Listen to community's. Once we can do all that. Then we need to unite all communities under the common goal of providing rest. The builders have built. The creatives have created. The workers have worked. Now they need to rest. They need to heal. They need to raise children who know what a bright future looks like so they can appreciate this life and their own humanity.
Now, everyone panic and tune out because sadly, I've given you an impossible task and you will never overcome your own programming.
"How? How? How?"
First step is to organize. Join an organization, any organization, or form your own.
Then what?
Then, that social movement (organization) puts forth it’s own candidate(s) to displace the corrupt government.
LOL
There is a reason Marxists promote reading history and philosophical theory; because the class struggle has been going on for a long time, and there is much we can learn about our current situation from those that wrote about their experiences in the past.
The issue was how to unite all communities under the common goal of providing rest, not how to learn while suffering. Everyone already knows how to do that. You have nothing to offer.
Because you are too lazy and stubborn to put in the work to change society, it doesn’t mean others have nothing to offer. What do you offer? Questions and pessimistic negativity? You are the reason we’re not allowed to rest. Get humble, stop looking for someone to save you and save yourself.
Let me guess your response:
How?
You’re like a child refusing to clean their room, so they can have ice cream. It’s always someone else’s fault and never your responsibility to make life better. You are a net drain on humanity. Prove me wrong and read some Marx.
Uh.. u wot?
You have no idea what I have done or do. You have no idea whether I'm lazy, how could you.
I find it sad and bizarre that you view reason and attempts at clear communication as bad. If you had something concrete to offer I would certainly be optimistic but all you seem to have is deluded echoes of Marx's "wouldn't it be nice if" dreams.
Sorry, didn’t mean to be presumptive. So you’ve read Marx. What books or pamphlets have you read?
I don't know, man.
This problem won't be solved by me alone.
heres some radom impractal ideas.
identify excesses fo power that do not work in the national interest and figure out what stable system can be put in place to regulate those excesses down to lower levels as effectively as possible. simples. /s
regulate banks so that they invest more of your savings in businesses and services that your country needs for your future. (this is a very long term fix as they've spent 40-50 years divesting from your society).
regulate capital gains so that business can not meet shareholder needs with asset price bubbles, only dividends. regulate dividends too. (aim is as Keynes said to avoid "whirlpools of speculation" and see only "bubbles" on a steady stream of investment).
nominal transaction tax (tobin tax), and transaction delay times for all exchanges to stop stock markets being ran so fucking stupidly they do not need to trade that much that often
dissociate commercial banks from building societies separate and minimise home loans- but regulate house prices to prevent mortgage bubble. (/ust accept low gdp growth , gdp is fucking made up number) basically do a load of FDR bank regulation stuff that got scrapped in the 70s/80s under dubious pretexts.
better to promote localised banking and local lending coops and such, then the power to make businesses loans is held closer to the savers and borrowers, and can be more accountable just by being a closer group that interacts mmore frequently.
regulate scarce situations that are hard to replicate , rent controls in centre of town or near transit (or other land use regualtion). try to manage away property bubbles - this is part of the reason businesses become uncompetetive, along with all the other stuff that pushes up cost fo living.
Of course regulation is difficult, prone to corruption, as al) the freedoomers will say. It is after all an excess of power - but it it not the only one and might be the only one with a chance of reducing the ppower of the others unles you cound bloody revolutions every now and again that also end up investing a new set of powerful people.. And it doesn't help that one of your(assuming i'm talking to usa by context) parties just works solely on behalf of al those power mongers that most need regulation; their real neat trick,"govt is shit", "look at us we're govt", "you'd better reduce the power of regulators in case you elect idiots like us again" And that line of reasoning is so successful that the other party imitates it.
So you need a way to make the regulators accountable, and elections are not a necessarily the best way to improve regulation , but they can be part of a wider system to hold the regulatros to account. On a more local scale , something like having to explain themselves and their decisions to random anonymous juries. They should also, as public officials have to submit their income and weath statements to the jury of the people to try to demostrate no bribery.
you dont need perfect, just a framework where it can improve bit by bit, and gradually weed out those with excess power orwho abuse it. which basically needs transparency and accountability at a level and frequency that matches the circumstances at hand.
Oh man seething sarcasm, I'm great at this.
These ideas are actually good. I can't imagine why they won't be implemented immediately.
haha. yeah clinical depression is the most realistic outcome.
I don't pretend to know the full and total solution, but I do know what need to happen... but I know the historical flashpoints tsld to at has so often forced these issues? Th
And what's that?
What is to be Done?
I asked kora what they know.
The stringed instrument, or the avatar?
Just read theory, it's not that hard, and people have been discussing how to get out of this Capitalist hellhole for hundreds of years.
You cant even see there is something fundamentally missing, that being the call to action. People rather endlessly argue about for hundreds of years.
You mean just vibing a revolution into action?
That's why I am recommending you read theory. For the why of Capitalism's inevitable demise, Wage Labor and Capital and Value, Price and Profit both do a much better job of actually explaining the inherent unsustainability of Capitalism.
I mean, not treading the same path. I mean defying what we think is the inevitability. Human brains are capable of great things but they are not capable of predicting the future. The future needs to be shaped and molded real time.
Your incredgulousness is so fucking bizarre. You see the same thing day after day, with no changeand you are upset. And I tell you change needs to just go ahead and happen. And you rather it not.
You're misreading me. Change happens every day. Socialism is the answer
Make socialism happen then
By vibing it into existence? Can't. It must be built through organizing and revolution.
Read theory.
... if you have no will to make it happen. It won't happen.
Say I "read theory" what will that change??
Name one thing that will change other then one more person subscribing to lofty ideas that are nothing more than lofty ideas.
You're the one out here "Vibing to make it happen."
I expect nothing of you. Blood from a stone. Lead a horse to water. Anon posts in the woods and no one's around to upvote.
Who says I don't have will? You can't vibe material conditions into changing, expecting Socialism to be built by the will of the people is idealism.
You have to build it, with your hands.
I see what's happening here. You want me to absolve you. I asked for people to be conscious of their community and start working towards a common goal. Luckily for you im the absolving fairy.
Let's start the magic. Whoosh. Whoosh. It's surrounding you now.
The idea that people need to work towards a common goal together is illogical. Only brute force can tame the masses.
Now chant!
~I won't lift a finger~ ~I won't lift a finger~
You are now absolved.
Why didn't you just ask?
You've got a chicken and egg problem here. If you don't provide any solutions why would anybody follow you? You need an idea for people to get onboard with. Currently leftists mostly don't know what they want, just that it isn't this. How is that supposed to convince anyone? You can't just say the current system doesn't work then not provide any viable alternatives. Lots of people know the current system isn't great, but they see it as the best system we have because essentially it is until someone comes up with something that doesn't turn into the CCP or USSR.
This is your programming speaking. Fear, uncertainty, doubt.
People don't unite under solutions. They unite under ideas.
There are a million fucking problems, each require their own solution. Each need to be defined, examined, and tested. No one can sit there and say, "just do this."
The work we are doing, and the work that needs done are in opposition to each other. Right now we are working to feed the system. We need to be working on maintaining the system to feed the people.
This is obvious and I never claimed otherwise. You are reading things into what I have said that aren't there. Different solutions will always be needed for different problems in different contexts. That's like engineering 101, and should be applied to politics and economics more.
I don't care what you claim. It's not helpful. It's not having any impact. Change course.
And you think you are? Literally one of the most salty people I have met. You aren't convincing anyone.
You haven't met me, you don't know me, this is an anonymous forum. I could be a salty dog or maybe a limp dick like you but I won't change a damn thing.
I know how you are acting now, and you are acting like an insane person or a troll, or maybe both.
... this need inside you to "win" or "be right" its.... pathetic.
Solutions start with ideas. If you are someone who can't turn an idea into a workable solution then why would I follow you? The world is full of people who want to be idea people, yet they have no understanding of practical reality. That's another thing that's missing from the current leftist movements: understanding of practical reality.
Also I would stop generalising people. I follow solutions, not just ideas. That's how any engineer should think. After all we are the people who turn lofty goals into reality.
Leftists are at their best when they can see practical problems that everyday people have, and explain why they happen in the context of the larger system and its flaws. Some leftists are great at this. What you need to do is take the next step and propose how you could change, improve, or replace the system and how that would solve the current problems without creating bigger ones. If you can't do that then ultimately you aren't going to win in the end, even if you manage to get popular support, even with a revolution.
This is again another type of programing. People arent an engineering problem. Politics will never be removed from emotion.
I've told my solution but you instead want a silver bullet. Everyone wants a silver bullet. The silver bullet doesn't exist and will never come.
We need to build our communities stronger, and need to stop being divided by people with obscene wealth; the people with something to lose if we do just that. Thats what will get us to the next obstacle.
Instead you will wait around for a charismatic leader with the answer to all your problems. Who has come to save us all.
You haven't though, just said some vague phrases and hinted that if everyone else just thought like you the problem would resolve itself.
Know how I know you are completely fucked in the head? You think you can fustrate me more than I am already frustrated with the current state of things. We are rock bottom. There is one way out. If you want to stay in the mouse trap you are going to stay in the mouse trap. Nothing I say or do will lead you out.
Hahaha, oh no friend it's going to get so much worse.
That's the thing. Where we are on the path, or cycle, of human suffering doesn't matter. You have to break the wheel.
Again that's a nice sounding statement that means nothing.
I tell people as often as I can, especially my trans and bipoc friends; now is the time. Get a couple guns (a long one and a short one) and learn how to use them. Learn some basic first aid, you really just need to know how to stabilize someone. Start networking with like-minded people in your communities. The police will not protect us, they’ve proven they’ll happily club senior citizens to the ground and shoot any protesters in the face with rubber bullets while escorting a rightwing murderer to safety.
Iran was a secular, liberal state until almost 1980 when they (mostly legitimately) elected an Islamist theocracy; it could happen here.
99% of social media doesn't mean anything, it is people attempting to influence you in the easiest way possible. Sure if 80% slip through the cracks who cares but the 20% represents millions. Turn it off. Build strong bonds with your community and kick anyone to the curb that says things should stay the same.
I am asking for solutions, not some perfect leader. We have seen how leftist ideas of charismatic leaders go, and I don't want another Lenin, Stalin, or Kim Jong Un. The fact that you jump to the conclusion that solutions = charismatic leader tells me a lot about how you think about politics. Believe it or not not all ideas, systems, and solutions come from the same person. Science isn't a cult of Sir Isaac Newton so why should politics be this way? Heck why do we even have a single powerful position like President or Prime Minister or King?
Also no you haven't provided any solutions. All you have done is provide excuses as to why you do not need any. I am not asking for a magic bullet here. I understand that real life systems are necessarily complex and multi-faecited. That's why having a single leader or person in charge isn't a smart idea. You can't ask a single human to have a grasp on the whole of society and all its problems, performance metrics, or trade-offs.
I haven't provided the solution. Get fucked. HUMANITY hasn't provided the solution, and it wont! Because if the goal is to have us both walk 100 miles that way and you won't get off your ass until you think of some shit way to do it, it doesn't matter if I ride a fucking dinosaur to Timbukto. Short of knocking you on your ass and carrying you there, I can do nothing for the cause.
Are you okay? How is this in anyway a response to what I have said. You are just being rude, and acting like a troll.
Your programming told you to exact a thought terminating quip because I challenged your paper thin grasp on reality. Next you will seek affirmation.
Not at all. You haven't demonstrated you have any grasp on reality. All you've proven is you aren't willing to behave rationally and are probably insane.
Why would I seek affirmation from someone who is nuts?
A question directed a me...
Why do you even feel the need to respond?
Can't you see there is something wrong with you?
You haven't done that.
And to top it all off, in order to preserve the only thing they have left - their freedom - they want to hand the country over to a dictator. It just doesn't get any more oxymoronic than that.
Fascism is the logical endpoint of capitalism. Just look up the largest German companies, then what they did between 1933 and 1945.
There is an amazing video by a Youtuber called Fredda about Coca Cola in Nazi Germany which goes over how the company worked during that time period and afterwards.
Last Week Tonight did an overview of Fanta being Nazi Coca-Cola. Pretty sure that was their first season too.
Great video.
No, fascism is communism.
Most brain dead take on this thread so far lmao
Communism is on the left end of the political spectrum. Fascism is on the right end.
To be fair, communism as seen under Stalin and fascism aren't too different, horseshoe theory. Pulling the definition of fascism from wikipedia: "a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy."
Dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation, strong regimentation of the economy, you could see all of those things while Stalin was in power and many continued on subsequent USSR leaders.
It's no wonder George Orwell, a democratic socialist, saw the USSR and said "fuck no, I don't want that shit"
Bolsheviks were the most extreme faction, and bred authoritarianism into their movement. Wilson fucked things up for us there. I don't consider Lenin or Stalin to be communists. They are authoritarian dictators. That's antithetical to communist ideologies. I understand that the perception may be skewed, but no one thinks that North Korea is a democratic republic, despite their name.
That's a myth peddled by Americans.
Tell me you've never read communist theory, without telling me you've never read communist theory.
You realize that even The Christ was a communist? He literally told his followers to live in communes and share.
Lol ok. Brainwashing is hard in you.
Your projection would be hilarious if it wasn’t so embarrassing
If only you had any semblance of intelligence.
You will own nothing and be happy
Source
Thanks for the link. I'd heard the expression in this context before, but never knew where it originated
Shareholders Uber Alles
Ü
No ü
Don't forget depression, anxiety and thought crime caused by social media addiction
All communist social-media addicts are always hsppy for the rest of their lives, of course! The addiction can't be the issue, it has to be capitalism!
Hey, I became a lot more hopeful for the future after reading Marx. Capitalism does indeed suck, but it's unsustainable.
The problem Marx didn't foresee is that capitalism can sustain itself until it destroys us all. In Nazi Germany, this left the country a bombed out pile of rubble. In modern times, it's global warming.
Marx definitely foresaw that possibility, his conclusions are more that if there aren't grand wars or famines eliminating everyone, Capitalism itself cannot last forever, which is far more comforting than assuming socialism can vibe itself into existence.
Lemmy is made by actual communists, so let's not pretend communism would somehow fix that.
Yea, these are the real communists, not like all those other communists, with their fake communism.
Well, if you ask any communist, they’ll tell you that real communism has never been tried, which implies that all other communists are fake.
That last bit is all conservatives care about keeping though.
They care about keeping the guns because they can't see they are one stupidity away from the guns being used on them. All it will take is all those idiots believing something bad about their leadership. Something that may not even have a shred of truth. After all once a regressive starts thinking somethings true, no truth will every sway them from the lie.
Being 'left' is being pro 2A, fumbled it there at the end.
I’m seeing a lot more libs understanding what 2A is really for. Preventing success of things like January 6.
Citizens will not stop a coup attempt using guns. You're watching too many movies. Be realistic.
Idk it seems like everytime a trained, well-equipped military goes up against a bunch of farmers the military loses so I'm not sure I agree with you.
Right, when was the last time that happened on us soil again?
Also, do you actually see Americans as some kind of guerilleros? With current obesity numbers, there's no hiding in improvised shelters for most. Let alone simple but crucial things like "running". Did you think of how the country isn't totally unknown to the military, negating one of the major advantages for defenders in past such situations?
By all means, do not agree with me. You can't convince me you actually believe us citizens have a fighting chance against the fucking us military, though. Absolutely delusional!
Students of history disagree. Remember when they told us we'd smash Vietnam in a month? Remember when they said the same thing about Iraq? You can come up with all the "but it's different this time!" you like, I agree we probably won't come to an agreement on this, have a nice day.
Why are you ignoring my questions? I don't remember anybody saying "Iraqis are probably too fat and complacent for guerilla tactics". "Students of history" won't disagree that there's a huge difference between the 1970s us army fighting guerilleros in Vietnam and the 21st century us army fighting a bunch of tacticool idiots on us soil.
Did you notice that your only argument is "nah, it wouldn't be different" without any substantiation?
I don't owe you an argument. I've stated my position and you've stated yours. Have a nice Friday.
I made an argument and you went "nuh-uh!" Sorry I tried to have a conversation with you, I guess. Maybe reflect on what you expect from making online comments.
Actually you made the statement "Citizens will not stop a coup attempt using guns. You’re watching too many movies. Be realistic." And I replied idk farmers seem to have a pretty good track record. Then you doubled down to start arguing which I'm not interested in because it's been discussed a million times and we likely will not come to an agreement. So again, have a nice Friday.
Yeah, I remember how you conflated Jan 6 with a military invasion. I then explained (argued even, you might say) how the scenario you're referencing has little in common with the us military engaging fat gun enthusiasts on us soil, to which you replied "nuh-uh!"
Now that we're all up to speed, can you elaborate on how you imagine citizens stop an actual military coup? Tanks are rolling up to seize the white house and there's Kevin (a farmer!!) with both his AR15s, a Desert Eagle and really cool shades. What's happening next in your fantasy?
My fear (not fantasy) is a truckload of redhatted MAGAts rolling into my (liberal, gay, city) neighborhood and taking potshots a the local "lifestyle center" while the police look the other way or pat them on the back and buy them Burger King on the way out. You wanna talk about gun control cool but that's a way different conversation than anyone is having right now, now kindly piss off.
WDYM, it's not like the structural problems of capitalism would favor fascists if we provide a market for buying guns. It's not like fascists are the ones with more money and time from owning a business or something. I would totally show up to defend my country from a coup as long as it coincides with my work break. /s
Missing is destroying any hope of owning a house
Do you think that allowing millions of illegals into the country puts no pressure on the housing market?
Imagine being so fed up with propaganda to the point of believing that immigrants are causing the housing market prices to go to the moon, completely ignoring the companies, trust funds and banks essentially repeating 2008 all over again, but slightly different, buying houses and apartments as "safe investment"
Please correct me if I'm wrong, and IANAL, but my understanding is that to own land (which would contain a house), in a country, you need to have a contract with the government where the land is, thereby identifying yourself as a foreigner.
It would seem that if this insane claim was actually a problem, where foreign persons were buying homes and then living in them, illegally in the USA for an extended period of time, that such a problem would be easy to solve?
"This home has been occupied by a Spanish speaking family, and it's owned by a Mexican citizen" would be a good reason for border services to go knock on the door and be like, who the hell are you people and do you have the legal right to be in the country?
IDK, but it feels like a problem that would fix itself.
Also, most illegal immigrants are fleeing their country with little more than the clothes on their back, nevermind enough cash to buy a house. I'm sure some rich people can do this but are they really the problem? If they want to live in the country and spend their wealth here, why would we want to stop them?
The whole argument is nonsensical to me.
Even if everything you say is true, where does this leave us in ~20 years when all of the children born here, who are now citizens, enter the housing market? Or the illegals who are granted citizenship which includes Dreamers plus any future actions?
I feel like illegal immigrants is less of a problem than you think it is.
But you're talking about the effects that would happen over multiple generations, all of whom come from essentially poverty conditions.
I am unable to count the number of people who became middle class from a poverty class family, because I'm not aware that it has ever happened. So any children of illegal immigration, who were born in the country who is now a citizen would probably fall into the poorest rentals and communities, which isn't capable of home ownership.
I'm middle class and I had to pair up with another family to break the cycle of violence that is renting. I'm 40 and I'll be 65 by the time we pay off the mortgage, at which time any savings from the mortgage is likely going to need to be fed into surviving, because inflation will have likely spiked the cost of everything to the point where we need that money just to buy food. I understand that's anecdotal, though I have seen others with similar stories. The only people I know of that are doing okay, bought a house in, or directly after college when the average price of a home was half of what it is now.
So if you ask me if these people are raising house prices, my answer is no, because the vast majority of them are impoverished. Those that are not, can afford the time, cost, and effort to go through the proper immigration process, and they become citizens.
Simply: rich/middle class foreigners are immigrating legally. Poor immigrants are coming over illegally with nothing, and given how ruthless our society is, they will not escape poverty in our lifetimes, and likely not in the lifetimes of our children, or their children. By the time they "become a problem" for the housing market, they will be 3rd or 4th generation citizens at a minimum, using their meager generational wealth to finally hoist themselves out of poverty.
That’s not what I asked. It’s a complex issue. Nobody is feeding into propaganda but conversely you seem to have your heels dug in and are not open to discussion.
Do you think that making immigration so difficult so that you create an underclass of workers below your citizenry you can domestically super-exploit for super-profits is causing housing issues?
I think we need immigration and I support it. We need to fix immigration, but not allow hundreds of thousands of unvetted persons flood across the boarder, untracked, into the country because it’s politically correct.
What does "politically correct" mean? A correct take?
I think the impact from illegal immigration is a fraction of a fraction of the impact from letting VC 'invest' in housing.
If capitalism worked, then those workers would be a flood of cheap labor that could be used to build cheap housing (among other things).
preach it fam
Where's that one meme when you need it lol
tyranny.gov ❎
tyranny.com ✅
Is anyone on Lemmy worried about socialism?
Who is this for?
The choir. This is preaching to the choir.
Fuckin' A right.
Som.. the american dream.
in USA*
In most places under the American empire's control to varying degrees.*
so only usa?, look at europe, even in brazil we have so much shit but nothing like that, and we are usa garden
Well as long as we'll have guns then things can be turned around...
Lol, as if their Wal Mart rifles are going to help them against reaper drones.
The USA loses to people less armed than the USA all the time.
But it would be an easy war of attrition no? How many died/almost died because Texas couldn't handle a lil iced? How long could those states last without resources from outside? How much of their materials are usable raw?
Do the "much guns" states actually have a decent bit of knowledgeable people? Being able to shoot a gun is fine and all but a war is far more than that.
The biggest worry would probably be the ones already in the military who could/would easily sabotage any efforts. And yes, drones are easily beating rifles when it comes to depleting each other's resources.
I know fuck-all about guns and war but my armchair is warmed up.
The US won all nearly all their engagements in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan. The difference was the lack of public support to keep those wars and occupations going.
You would think that the public wouldn't support a war the US wages on the public.
When half the people want it, it will.
This is it.
People keep insisting that the populace would win a war of populace against state... maybe it would, I don't know and it's not the problem.
The problem is a war of half the populace against the state and the other half of the populace. Fascism is carried into power by popular demand, it's not like one day they just appear on the levers of power and have to put up with a revolting population. They will have been put there by the population, and it will be the better armed half of the population.
The war on drugs has entered the chat
It can be done with guns or it can be done without. Can is the magic word here, and guns are optional.
You’re gonna need a nuke, big guy. You aren’t taking on the American military with your lil pea shooter.
At least if you lived in a socialist place before that naturally left you so helpless that you now wish for the heavy restrictions to be back because you rely on them.
"At least the walls of the prison kept me warm"...
What?
So "Capitalism" ( by which you mean crony Corps in league with government - a socialist system) took away socialist 'benefits' - huh. Are you sure you are looking at the right end if the stick?
Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about?
I think the best solution is a healthy balance of socialism and capitalism.
Extremes always tend to be dangerous.
I think the best solution is a healthy balance of kindergartens and child labour factories.
Extremes always tend to be dangerous.
I think we need a blend of false equivalencies and dangerous extremes.
I know you disagree with me, but your joke was so good I had to upvote
Who's going to pay your kindergartens?
You mean market socialism
"I think we need a balance between the system that wants to oppress workers to maximise profit, and the system which wants workers to control their own lives"
Why?
WHY?
Too much socialism encourage laziness, incompetence and poverty.
Too much capitalism encourage inequity, exploitation and consumerism.
I think both socialism and capitalism have their own pros and cons. But both are necessary.
Does it? Says who? The Chicago school of economics?
All Capitalism.
What good does Capitalism do?
You sound like someone that never worked in his entire life.
I hope I'm wrong.
You're very wrong, and failed to address any of my arguments or back your own claims up, it's jusy vibes and mysticism.
I didn't fail to address any argument.
If you actually worked at least once in your life, you would understand the value of working, making money, competency and being useful to society.
I think you're coping because you're useless and incompetent. You're using socialism as an escape mechanism.
You clearly have a misconception of what socialism is. Socialism does not mean sit around and collect benefits from the government. It means that workers (yes, people who WORK) own the means of production, rather than the do-nothing capitalist class which makes money parasitically from simply owning things.
On a fundamental level, socialism encourages it. And you, you seem to have a misconception of what capitalism is and how money works.
Yes, the best and most effective way to make money is by owning things and hiring people, and letting them work for you. I own a business myself.
You call it 'parasite' and that can be true to an extent when it turns evil and only profit-driven.
If you choose to be a normal wage worker that doesn't own anything, then yeah, capitalism is probably not for you. You'll be stuck in an endless rat race and feel like a slave all your life.
My advice is to stop trading your time for money and start owning things that generate money for you.
That's why I think a healthy balance of both socialism and capitalism is optimal.
"My advice is simply to not be poor and become a member of the tiny owner class, like me, that practices wage slavery on the vast majority of the rest of society. 👍"
You can't make this up
I don't practice wage slavery. I do have my own business, and I don't even have employees. I use technology and softwares as leverage.
And I'm not part of the 1% either. Far from it.
But I understand that to make money, you have to understand how money operates and work for it.
I don't think expecting the government to pay and provide for everything is a good solution.
The gov should definitely take care of some things, but not everything. Some things should be accountable to the individuals themselves.
Cool, so you're a self-proprietor, and still think you can magic the system into a bunch of self-proprietorships. Simply "understanding how money works" isn't all you need to succeed, otherwise the system would work for the vast majority rather than the vast minority.
You clearly have no actual idea what Socialism is if you think it's just welfare, it's worker ownership of the Means of Production. Directing production towards fulfilling needs and uses, rather than the profits and wealth hoarding of the few.
You do realize Lemmy was made by Communists along Communist principles, right?
I have worked, and continue to work. I understand how my labor is exploited by the bourgeois class and I do not recieve the bulk of the Value I create. I suggest reading Wage Labor and Capital and Value, Price and Profit.
I am certainly not the absolute most competent worker who ever lived, but I am definitely far more competent than the parasites exploiting me without lifting a finger.
I dont think the FED + state which printed 70% of USD money supplies during covid years has anything to do with capitalism and free market... They are anti free market and capitalism if anything...
rofl it's not communism just because the government is involved...
The US is capitalist. Full stop. Period. The government BUYS its physical currency, for fuck's sake.
You see only binary. I didnt said its communism, I said its not free market capitalism, if the state can devalue your money by half with a single action (why do you think basic groceries cost double since 2020 ?), and its not a free market capitalism, when they impose 50% tariffs on anything Chinese regarding EVs and stuff around https://apnews.com/article/biden-china-tariffs-electric-vehicles-solar-254546e92f823a78220c195a0a42a10e
They dont buy their currency, they print promissory notes, that they will repay the debt, in exchange for money. And if you still believe that US can once repay its debt, you are delusional... Especially now, as China and many others are trying to get rid of petro dolars...
"Free market capitalism" is a fairytale we tell school children. Free market capitalism would be me filling up my car with leaded gasoline before going to work at a meth plant, but also I gotta pay the toll to use the private roads.
bahaha You are the one with binary thinking... The government doesn't magically mean "not capitalist", fool. When the government spends money, it's not magically "not capitalist", either.
The US government is capitalist because they back up and enforce things for corporations' bottom line. You speak of debt as if that magically makes them not capitalist... You are quite literally ignorant on what "capitalist" even means. Sad. Pathetically sad.
It's simple, a State in Capitalist society serves the interests of the Bourgeoisie and defends Capitalism.
Capitalism naturally destroys free markets.
People miss that Adam Smith in his writing was arguing in favor of small enterprise and in favor of the government busting up monopolies
Yep, then Ricardo and later Marx built up on his theory.
The US has the largest government in the history of the world, it is not remotely pure capitalist.
It's absolutely Capitalist and additonally Imperialist. Having a government doesn't mean it isn't Capitalist, especially if the bourgeoisie controls the state, rather than the proletariat.
Who do you think the US government works for?
Many of them work for the rich, some of them have integrity, but most are just in it for their own power and benefit.
Power and benefit, also sometimes referred to with the term "capital"
Not really, its more control of people. The ability to feel power over a domain.
Which is a form of capital. Our politicians use that power for monetary profit. That shits just intrinsic to building an entire system with capitalism at it's heart like we been doing since the late 60s
You are shoehorning the word capitalism in there.
You could argue that, but are these personal benefits not just checks from lobbyists? And does this power not come largely from the leverage they gain expanding their influence in order to justify bigger checks?
I think we agree, and the only solution that I see as workable is to greatly reduce the power of the government on all levels.
Do you think the capitalists who say exactly that, have integrity? Could you name one?
The part about reducing government size?
Yes the part about reducing government size. You have project 2025 that wants to get rid of the EPA and the Department of Education. Do the billionaires support this project because they have integrity or because it's good for their bottom line?
Billionaires support larger government, undoubtedly. The more government the more their business is protected from up and coming companies. Also they want more tax money to go into the government so they can get more contracts from the government. Take a peak at the national spending on military and realize that it goes directly to billionaire run companies.
I guess when Trump says: "hey billionaires, give me money and I'll abolish the EPA" https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/05/09/trump-oil-industry-campaign-money/ ... He's just barking up the wrong tree?
Did I say I was a big trump supporter? The EPA harms big and little business, you can like it or not.
I don't care. I am perfectly comfortable nestling into my giant pile of cold hard guns.
Sounds healthy.
Lauren Boebert levels of mental healthy.
Looks Pension and savings look like they're all there. Looks Still employed. Looks Still have free health care. Looks Still seem to be churning out graduates with pace. Looks No debt.
🤷♂️
Oh shit guys, nevermind! Rah says he's doing great! Hows Bezos? Also great? Welp, that settles it, we're gonna be ok!
The golden canary I have in this mine says: I'm gonna be rich. dies to poisonous gas
Oh yeeeah, wouldn't you know it, me and Bezos are comparable!
... And The anecdotes ride off into the sunset together, their anecdotal futures so bright, they gotta wear shades...
So things are working out for you, specifically. Great, nothing needs to change.
I didn't say that, this meme just seems ridiculously off target.
I'm not worried about either socialism or capitalism, they're both abstract ideas. I'm much more concerned with actual, real assholes who are aplenty under both socialism and capitalism.
Hear that everyone? He’s worried about the assholes and not any cockamamie abstract ideas!
Hi everyone! :-)
Does a dance
Especially the one in the mirror.
You don’t have free healthcare, unless you don’t live in America. And if that’s the case, your comment means nothing.
WTF?!
That's not very socialist of you.
Where's do you live that you have a pension and free healthcare?
The golden palace in their mind.
Skinny tails on bell curves always exist.
Seriously though who the fuck still has an actual pension anymore?
I do. But that's because I'm in a union. This country needs more unions!
You are from the UK....?
He's talking about things happening with pace rather than speed, so...