Conservative asked me my thoughts on a situation if a guy who says he's trans walks into a womens restroom but is lying and isn't actually trans
My thoughts is that it's a simple situation really. If they're harassing or assaulting people, the women will call the cops or something, simple situation and get the guy arrested. If he's not doing anything, it's nothing harmful. Apparently that's not a solid enough answer. What should I have said?
Is there a magical barrier that keeps men who don't say they're trans from entering women's bathrooms?
A fictitious rapist can only enter women's bathrooms for raping purposes if they loudly declare that they are trans.
Oh I see, it's like bankruptcy.
Unexpected !dundermifflin@lemm.ee
"See I'm trans. You have to let me in here to rape people."
It's quite interesting to see them make this argument while also claiming that gun control laws can't possibly work because criminals won't abide by them.
I guess we need to allow everyone to use any washroom because we need a good man in the women's washroom to be around to save the women from a bad man in the women's washroom
Careful, conservatives have historically been against desegregating spaces.
Not if it means white men can go wherever they want!
Gun control laws don't stop bad actors from acting badly. And neither will restroom laws.
Yeah, this is probably the right way to go. There's actually no bathroom police, for most people. It's an issue in the first place because when someone is trans people will deputise themselves just to harass them.
The social contract, and the knowledge that it isn't acceptable and any women inside would likely scream and the man would be perceived as an attempted rapist and would face consequences.
In my experience what happens is you look at each other confusedly for a moment, wondering who is in the wrong restroom. Then you realise there are no urinals so it's probably the women's restroom. Then the man leaves a bit embarrassed. Source: Happened to me at least twice (once the signs were really unclear).
Happened to me once as the woman. Poor guy was so embarrassed and apologetic.
So, no. I don't think a rapist cares much if they're perceived as a rapist. And a lot of (maybe most?) rapists know that they probably won't be convicted even if caught.
None of those things prevented rapists from entering bathrooms before.
So the woman won't scream if a fake trans rapist starts raping them? The justice system won't prosecute an accused fake trans rapist because there's a newer social contract?
"You think about strange men's genitals a lot, don't you?"
Or... "You seem to want to talk about sex a lot. Is everything OK at home?"
Depends how likely an actual productive conversation was. It's not an invalid question without context. With the typical coconuts, yeah maybe just embarrass them.
On the contrary: it is more than famous enough as a right-wing "gotcha" question that's very fair to assume it's invalid by default. Positive context would be necessary to justify treating it as genuine.
Agreed. I more meant that the context is unknown here.
...? Brown on the outside, white on the inside? Like a white-washed Indian person?
It's a meme, it means "context" here.
I'm not really getting it even after reading that page, but thank you lol
Uhh, yeah, it actually doesn't explain as well as I had hoped. The bit about "you exist in the context of all in which you live and what came before you" took on a life of it's own, and it's associated with the idea that context is important. Maybe I'm in a small meme bubble, though. I probably won't make that reference again.
Haha, thank you for the explanation. Yeah, I'd heard of the clip, but never heard of that usage of coconuts.
I'm also probably older than the average memer, lol
Nothing, they're not genuinely interested in a discussion. They're just trying to pin you with a bad answer and will keep moving the goal post until they think they gotcha.
This. ☝️
It's best to ignore them. There's no use getting into an argument with someone who's disingenuous to start with.
And if they can’t “getchya”, they’ll just stop responding or change the subject without ever acknowledging that you’ve proven your point.
What public bathroom has dedicated security gaurds? Theres nothing stopping a man from just walking in without having to make stuff up. If someone is acting inappropriate in a public restroom then why does it matter whats in their pants? Gay/lesbian perverts exist too!
As my brother can attest to, there are women take anyone who passes as a man as a threat in the women's restroom and will go get people to do something. Poor dude was just trying to get tampons.
Seriously that's always been my question for these people. "Oh no, only women are allowed to enter and I'm not a woman! Oh well, guess I'll go rape someone somewhere else!" Dude was already planning on committing a crime, guys. Come on.
I don't get why we have different bathrooms at this point. Its more efficient to just have them all be family bathrooms with floor to ceiling stalls.
Was at a brewery last night where the "bathroom" was a row of sinks, and then a row of doors labeled "sit" or "stand". The commode cubicles were full length walls and doors, totally private, and this just makes so much more sense to me
Was at a church yard sale yesterday and they had the same setup. Pretty sure it was not a progressive church.
Amen! I went to a restaurant that had this layout. Each stall was like it's own little room with a full sized door and a shared sink area. It's more efficient use of space and you get a better stall. The only thing that I think would make it better would be a small side area with a couple urinals.
Nothing.
Nothing is good enough. Gendered bathrooms are about repression. That's why they are so mad about non-gendered toilets that are popping up.
This has always confused me for years since this "debate" became part of public dialog.
Why don't we just have all non-gender bathrooms? A friend of mine used to live in an apartment building where the common area had 4 non-gendered bathrooms.
Each had a fold-out changing table, a single toilet, and a sink, so everybody was accommodated. Men, women, non-binary, trans folks, a parent with their baby or young child, and disabled people because the door was wide enough for a wheelchair and the toilets had support bars next to them.
Fully inclusive to everybody, and nicer than the typical restrooms because they were totally private.
I wish all bathrooms were like this. It would be so much easier for me as well as so many other people.
I know right! It feels like one of those rare true win-win scenarios where all parties involved are better off by the change.
So all restrooms should be gender free?
Yes. (Or rather, gender neutral.)
It would be cheaper to build actual walls in restrooms than to double their size systematically
Yeah. All private ones are already.
I actually prefer men and women separate restrooms because using the urinals is faster than going in to stalls, which reduces the wait time a bit. Then again, if you have two non gendered restrooms, you'll get double throughput. Also, it would take a while to get adjusted to seeing both genders in the same restrooms, maybe I'm overthinking it, I've heard a university near me has non gendered restrooms only and the students are still adjusting to it.
Apologies if I'm rambling.
a lot of queer spaces are converting regular bathrooms to gender neutral bathrooms and the signs often say “with urinals”… who cares if there’s a woman using the bathroom while you’re using the urinal?
I mean, you could have urinals in one room and then gender-neutral toilets in another room. Urinals and gender neutral toilets are not mutually exclusive I think.
Hmm good point. In all the gender neutral restrooms I've been in, there's usually just stalls and no urinals, that's why I only thought of a stalls only restroom.
I'm trans and the only reason I stopped using urinals is because it freaked the men out too much lol
They're so convenient! You don't have to touch them! And it feels like my bladder empties more completely when standing idk
Gender! 👏 Neutral! 👏 Urinals! 👏
Nah you are good.
The thing about this is that men are provided more space for essentials in the workplace, and making men stand to piss means less physically abled people have more trouble operating in that workplace.
So outside the gender ick issues there's equality reasons that gender neutral toilets are a good thing.
Meh, urinals are pretty gross and you save pretty marginal amounts of time over quickly sitting down at a toilet
they also save a lot of space and money so there tend to be more. at bars and clubs in particular where the men’s has urinals, the difference in line length is pretty stark
When I try to recall the few non-gendered public bathrooms I've been in, they all had private stalls with real doors. It was nice. I'd be happy if all public bathrooms were like that.
Yes. A room with a bunch of stalls and sinks.
European type stalls that is, floor to ceiling, real doors.
I’ve only been in a couple non-gendered communal bathrooms and it was a little odd, but only because I wasn’t used to it. The actual mechanics of it were basically the same as a normal bathroom. Go into a stall and do your business then come out and wash your mitts.
I don’t have a problem with it being the standard. I guess I wouldn’t think it would be a good idea for high schoolers because they’re always in heat.
Thats the thing right. You dont care whos shitting in the stall next to you. You're busy shitting.
This is (should be) true for any public bathrooms, no matter the sign on the door.
High schoolers have sex in gendered bathrooms to though
I don't have gendered restrooms in my house and people seem to navigate those just fine. I feel like it would work for public restrooms too.
Oh Jesus Christ fuck me. "Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!"
We're in the middle of making a sensible culture shift. That's all. I'm 53 and non-gendered toilets have been a thing forever, it just makes sense to make them more common. Some people don't like that and some people have never been on an airplane.
And some people scream "oppression" at the drop of a hat, making their screams seem far less serious. (Same goes for "racism!".)
I don't think you are paying attention to the impacts of different things, or who benefits from the paradigms that are perpetuated.
Did you consider for any amount of time who benefits from strict gender divides in general?
Gendered bathrooms where a godsend for women.
There was a time women couldn't travel far from their home bathroom. it was called the lavatory leash.
The current problem is bigots and "communal" toilets (in that order), not gendered toilets.
Explain the scare quotes.
Explain why you're scared of quotes
Illiterate cunt
"Counter question: What stops a creep from doing that even if there was an anti trans law?"
I see three broad categories of sexual misconduct a man could get up to in a women's restroom:
Sexual assault and/or rape. Since his sex will become very apparent during the act there's no real disguise needed; avoiding getting caught here is making sure you're not identifiable to security cameras covering the entrance. Walk in, stand just inside the door.
In-person voyeurism. Want to get an eyeful in person, see some of that under-stall ankle. I see no functional difference in this case between posing as a trans-woman and posing as a woman. Like what's even the difference in implementation? You can be slightly lazier with your disguise?
Installing cameras. Uploading to a shady website or something. Trans-woman is the wrong disguise for this job; you want to pose as a janitor or maintenance worker. Wear a grey jumpsuit with a name sewn to the chest and no one will bat an eye at you taking several trips to carry tools and ladders and shit in there. Drill holes in the wall, run some wire, tamper with the plumbing fixtures. Wear a high vis vest, carry a clipboard, wear a hard hat and walk with purpose and you can bring power tools into places much more secure than a women's restroom.
I don't see how trans people existing worsens any risk here, is my point. But it's not about that, is it?
Why are conservatives so worried about hypothetical scenarios involving gendering re: restrooms?
It's come up exactly zero times ever in my entire lifespan, and I'm in my mid 40s now and have been in hundreds, if not thousands, of public restrooms.
I am a straight guy and I have used a woman's restroom.
But only in the context that it was a single restroom and the men's was occupied. I just unilaterally executed my male privilege and declared that the woman's restroom was unisex for the time period that I needed it.
There was nobody else in the room and if there had been first the door would have been locked or I would have been absolutely mortified.
This was super common in college dorms as well. The etiquette was that if your hookup or friend was using the bathroom on your floor you were supposed to stand outside and let people know about it. You know, informed consent and all. Absolutely zero people ever gave a shit.
The entire fear kind of makes me assume that all conservatives are just opportunistic rapists who are kept in check my the thinnest veneer of social order.
Are single-sex dorms a thing over there? Ours were always mixed with unisex bathrooms - stalls for everyone.
They tended to be segregated by floor at that time. So you'd have a men's or women's room on every other floor. There were also still a few women's only dorms, but my experience with those was basically the same. Nobody is leaving the building just to take a piss.
-Penn Jillette
The amount of times I as a straight cis man have had to go in the women's room for a changing table for my child is unacceptable
I have actually used a restroom many times when someone of the "wrong" gender was cleaning it. It turns out that person did not try to get an angle to scope out my junk, or molest me or whatever these people believe is going to happen. If someone did that, I would pretty much react exactly the same regardless of their gender. I'd be like "bro what the fuck no free previews."
What exactly do they think goes on in these bathrooms anyway?
Literally the only times I have EVER seen it was when I was at concert and a woman came in and exclaimed that the line was too long for the women's. I have never once seen a man go into a womens room
I have seen it in a few instances where the baby changing facilities were only in the women's bathroom, and a father needed to access them. I wish that bathroom discourse could involve structural inequities like this, but the bigots are overly concerned about what is in people's pants
... Am I the only one who's used the wrong one just because that's how little attention I'm paying?
If a person presenting as a man enters the womens bathroom and goes to the bathroom and washes their hands and leaves.. I would say nothing. Why the fuck do you care?
Hell, I have seen grown men enter the women's room with their daughters, maybe around 6-7 years old. Old enough that they want to use the big girl toilet, young enough that they need supervision.
You know what happened? Nothing. Nothing happened, because 99% of people don't actually care if you're not being a creep.
I don't think that's true. I think there's a lot of women who don't feel comfortable/safe in a vulnerable space with men around. And even though one mightn't actually undress outside the individual toilet cubicles, it's still - to many - that kind of space.
I think it's important to respect women's (and men's) desire for privacy - even when not all women feel the same need for privacy - through this cultural change of who uses what bathroom.
And that goes doubly when you expand beyond a particular subset of America to different cultures and people with different experiences.
I have traveled to very conservative countries and have never found the sort of puritanical hand wringing that comes from a certain subset of Americans.
I say this as an American expat who has lived everywhere from Hawaii to the bible belt, to New York.
Can you imagine the pain and anxiety you would cause a biological woman who does not look feminine enough for your line of reasoning here?
You see her in the restroom and act like she doesn't belong there - maybe you say something, maybe you keep your "discomfort in your vulnerable place" to yourself, but your stupid ideas about what a woman is and how one should look in order to be accepted into a bathroom are hurtful.
I was in an art class last month with a lovely young woman who has pcos. She is a Sikh woman, and therefore does not remove her facial hair.
She had a beard that would put a young man to shame, and now it occurs to me that had she been unfortunate enough to be born in America, she would have had to choose between honouring the basic tenets of her religion, or conforming so she is not shunned - or worse, assaulted for using the womens room.
https://www.learnreligions.com/some-sikh-women-have-facial-hair-2993341
Can you really expect privacy in the communal area of a bathroom? There's other people walking around you.
Reminder that this is not a thing that has ever actually happened.
...Or reported, rather (I'm not American).
i've understood that coed bathrooms have existed in various places in the country long before republicans decided they were going to create a campaign against transgender people using restrooms. Grow up. Everyone poops!
"in your biased example the fact that the person is trans isn't relevant to anything...what's your point?"
This is not even a good question to argue with, if anyone in the restroom is being a creep it's not ok and that's that.
You made a mistake.
You engaged with someone that wasn't asking in good faith. The idea itself is so stupid that snagging engaging with it isn't worth the time and effort.
The only useful response to that question is "are you really that stupid, or do you think I am?"
Probably should have changed the subject or said goodbye. Arguing with conservatives is exhausting and usually in bad faith. It’s about winning, not exploring a topic together.
Do you realize that this belief actually prevents you from discussing in good faith?
If you dehumanize the other, then you can’t be open to discussion with them.
I don't negotiate with Nazis
Its an ancient argument and your answer is correct.
There is no cock check at restroom doors anyone can enter.
Wish there was.
Can't tell you how many times I've went through the embarassment of realizing I left mine at home halfway through a piss.
"Wow, sadly I think it means that person has some serious mental issues, and we should get them some help.
Are you feeling okay? Do you want me to call someone for you?"
The argument made by the person asking that question is not based on any realistic fear they have actually thought through. On the big list of gendered violence, a cis dude saying they are trans to accomplish... being present in a bathroom without themselves getting harrassed... doesn't even register.
Instead, this is just a typical attempt to punch down based on an imagined danger, usually on someone else's behalf. There's nothing an oppressor likes more than a piece of illogic that frames their target of oppression as, sneakily, the real oppressor. In this case, it is trans people wanting bathroom access without having to out themselves or to otherwise just not contradict their gender. Gender neutral bathrooms would also be acceptable, or even better, but cis people have insisted on gendered bathrooms. Rather than say, "yeah trans people shouldn't have to put up with that cis bathroom bullshit", reactionaries try to come up with ways to reframe the ask as its own form of oppression. This is also the mainstay of TERFs, basically just cis women that pretend trans women are oppressing them by wanting basic equal consideration.
Depending on who this person is, you may want to try various tactics. If you think you can be flippant and dismissive of them, definitely do that preferentiallu. Make them feel like they are being ridiculous and that if they really care about violence against women they should work on guaranteeing housing for all and hate cops. If you can't be flippant, I recommend still not taking it seriously but just changing the subject to the actual act of oppression and telling them more or less what I said in previous paragraphs. All of this assumes this us a person whose mind you want to change, like that of a friend or family member. If it is a colleague, start documenting their transphobuc comments and see if anyone else has your concerns, get their documentation as well. If it is just some rando, just tell them to shut the fuck up with bad faith transphobia and move on.
Uhhhhh there are no urinals in the ladies so everyone is in a stall? So?????
Does this fella want the ladies to shoot him?
(Using the ladylike Darringer from her pocket book, saying "ah do declare" of course)
The greatest thing in life is those 4 way street uninals.
Well you haven't lived until you've had communal log over an open pit in the woods.
....so manly.
Lol remember the piss troughs from the 1980s? Gaze into another man's eyes while you pee into a bathtub!
The worst ones at the stadiums ...
We're assuming that you're talking to someone who's willing to have a discussion in good faith.
You'd first need to know why that isn't a sufficiently solid answer. Are they looking for a perfect solution? Because I'm pretty sure there isn't one. What we want is an improvement over the status quo, and sometimes an overall improvement necessitates a worse experience in certain areas.
"Trans people aren't super-sayajins so existing assault laws are probably fine"
ask them what happens when a guy walks into a women's restroom and says they're a trans-man but is lying and isn't actually trans?
Whatever you answer to a question like that is going to be attacked. The best way is not to answer, but reply with a different question, for instance "what are you afraid of?"
and what is stopping a cis male from doing the same?
Irrelevant but: I, um, did this once. We were at a fancy art gallery. I somehow followed what I thought was a mixed group into what I thought was a general bathroom. I remember thinking "what a novel concept to mixed bathrooms this is!"
It was only afterwards that I realised that, no, this was not a mixed bathroom. No one said anything, but I cringe at myself and at how uncomfortable I must have made people feel.
That is the scenario..
What's to stop him just walking in anyway?
Don't live in the US, but in Sweden almost all WCs are gender neutral.
But the scenario is a cis gender male, walking in to a bathroom where he doesn't belong. And you ask what is stopping him, well in the world where someone is asking you what gender you are, to allow you to go the bathroom; I guess that will be stopping you.
It's a made up scenario
Culture and common understanding. The sense of shame he'd get from everyone around saying, why are you in the wrong toilet? And the potential for escalation if he doesn't turn back and leave.
Changing culture means new adaptation to what's comfortable, what feels safe, and how you can interact with a stranger without getting the police involved. We have to adapt: but that change is a legitimate difficulty/concern for women who don't feel safe doing their 'toilet' with men around.
Is there no one in the replies here who thinks women have a legitimate discomfort, or unsafe feeling, having men around in a toilet space, even if the men aren't actively being harmful?
No women here who had difficult upbringings with men? No men whose daughter or sister or female friend feels uncomfortable letting certain barriers down around strange men?
Of course there is an important discussion about how bathroom culture changes as society's acceptance of trans people changes.
But, OP, I think what you would do best beyond what you said, is to acknowledge that some women have a legitimate concern, even if there's not an easy answer. Once you have that point of agreement - once the other person can see you care about the concern they're coming from - you have a foundation for discussing a real problem and/or solution.
Otherwise you're just buttimg heads to win, and asking an internet echo chamber to adjudicate.
So quick question: You are completely fine with a trans woman using the women's rest room right?
I'd say the best answer to this conservative is that it's like open carrying a handgun. Just because someone is carrying a handgun doesn't make them the bad guy, so you leave them alone.
But if they draw that weapon and threaten someone, you call the cops.
..or another good guy with a gun?
You've said your opinion. The asker asked. They got their answer. End of story.
You should have asked him if he's planning to do that.
You should have said “How is that not a solid enough answer?”
The time for debating conservatives was over a decade ago. The time for debate is over. Now is the time to dethrone them. Marginalize hate by marginalizing the haters.
I know that lying is bad. And that's a crucial point I think.
You know I still don't understand the issue people have with this. Every bathroom I've been in either has stalls to use with urinals on the side and dividers between those for some privacy, or is only designed for one person at a time anyway. I can't imagine having any issue with anyone of any gender in those types of bathroom, unless they where being clear creeps and trying to press an eye to a gap in a divide or something. Which isn't solved by limiting the genders who can enter, it's solved by building better dividers and not leaving gaps.
This isn't Rome my dude, we're not all sitting in one room and having a face to face while we clart.
Not saying I have the answers, but I typically attack the person's desire for oversimplification and binary stupidity. Like, "Do you feel like this question encompasses all bathroom related issues?" It gives me the time to think, while also assessing their vulnerabilities from an unexpected redirection. I ultimately attack their confidence in forming questions by adding edge case exceptions to their simplified outlook.
When someone poses a question like this, the are telling you that they lack depth. They do not have a good grasp of scales or complexity. They also lack the self awareness required to effectively empathize with others. This is a vulnerability that they have exposed. By exploiting this vulnerability, you invalidate their argument, take control of the rhetoric, and you increase the chance that their insecurity motivates growth of their self awareness at some later point.
Doesn't like every game do this now? When I buy a new PC game it's always connected to their Dev's own service
In my opinion, what restroom to use depends on what you have between your legs. "Gentlemen" for penis. "Ladies" for vagina.