Do y'all actually pronounce dragon with a j sound? How???
English phonology, American English dialects' (and other dialects') /r/ is usually pronounced retracted, post-alveolar/pre-palatal (usually bunched/molar), transcribed something like [ɹ̠ᶹ], so it causes alveolar consonants in the same cluster to retract/palatalize, usually into a post-alveolar affricate ([d͡ʒ] – the "j" sound for voiced stop /d/, [t͡ʃ] – the "ch" sound for voiceless stop /t/, [ʃ] – the "sh" sound for voiceless fricative /s/). The term would be assimilation (of place of articulation).
You can see the same thing with words like "tree" /tri/ -> [t̠ʃɹ̠i] or even "street" /strit/ -> [ʃt̠ɹ̠it]
Would explain simpler but can't, break ends now, just know its because consonant pronounced in different place in mouth is conforming to being pronounced in the same place in mouth as other consonant that is right beside it (like with "in-" vs "im-", "impractical", which notably isn't "inpractical", or "incandescent" which notably isn't "imcandascent", or "indecisive" etc. etc.)
This explanation makes me feel stupid
They made almost no attempt to put it in layman's terms, which means as an explanation it is not very helpful unless you already know enough about the topic to not need to ask about it in the first place. Correct and unhelpful. But I guess they were busy.
Schools need to teach IPA. It's basically a universal language. (Lol plz dont hit me)
What would be a good place to start with IPA? Going off Wikipedia's pages on the matter is like Force's comment, well-intentioned but not a great intro as you flit back & forth across the tables making sense of it.
I also vaguely remember a similar experience with physical dictionaries, which I think tend to have some kind of IPA (or related) pronunciation guide in them. It's been awhile since I've used one though, hence the foggy memory, and some online dictionaries seem to have given up on showing IPA pronunciation guides.
this small 3-part video series is a good place to start:
then you can just look at transcriptions in a language you speak, and/or look at the chart and try to pronounce some of the sounds (good luck for that one lmao). a good place to look/ask is r/asklinguistics, r/linguistics, r/conlangs on reddit, they're pretty active
one thing i should clarify now is the convention you usually see for notation using the IPA – there's a difference between /broad/ transcription and [narrow] transcription.
you see, the IPA can be used in many different ways – it can be used phonemically, or phonetically, or sometimes in other ways.
Phonetically means the symbols represent phones. Phones are distinct sounds, they are a specific way of articulating/pronouncing/using your articulators (articulators being the things you use to pronounce stuff, e.g. your tongue or lips or vocal cords). Usually you will represent more phonetic transcription using brackets [ ] (narrow transcription).
Phonemically means the symbols represent phonemes. Usually more phonemic transcriptions are represented with slashes / / (broad transcription). Phonemes are sounds that carry meaning in a language – i.e., a phoneme is something that if you replace with another phoneme, speakers perceive that as a different word. A phoneme is generally made up of multiple phones, called allophones, all of which are different phonetically but the speaker of the language perceives them as the same thing – in fact the thing I described in this thread is a great example of that!
"Dragon" in English is made up of six phonemes, /ˈdræ.gən/ – /d/ the "d" sound in English, /r/ (also written /ɹ/) the "r" sound in English, /æ/ the "a" sound in "cat" or "ask" in English, /g/ the "g" sound, /ə/ the schwa sound/reduced vowel as in the "a" in "about" or the "u" in "medium", /n/ the "n" sound. /ˈ/ means the following syllable has primary stress (in English that would usually mean pronouncing it with fortis – louder/more tense, and with a higher pitch than the rest of the syllables). /./ is a syllable boundary, it demarcates the end of the previous syllable and the beginning of the next syllable. /ˌ/ would be secondary stress. Often times the primary stress symbol is omitted if it's in the first syllable.
When you write /dræ.gən/, that's kind of a "template" made of phonemes that are good for describing a wide variety of dialects' sounds – it'd be very cumbersome to try to write an extremely narrow, phonetic transcription of dozens of dialects' pronunciations every time you want to describe a word; using broad transcription, you can then leave it to the reader to further break it down into more specific, precise transcriptions whenever they care about a specific dialect.
So let's break it down – in my dialect, /r/ is pronounced as a post-alevolar approximant – that is, pronouncing with a continuous flow of air with the tongue behind the alveolar ridge (the bump on the roof of your mouth behind your teeth) and not touching the roof of the mouth as to not cause as much obstruction. This would be transcribed as [ɹ̠] or [ɹ˗], the symbol for the alveolar approximant plus the diacritic for retraction (pronouncing further behind in the mouth). A lot of the times, the /r/ sound in a lot of dialects may be transcribed as [ɻ] – retroflex, generally meaning post-alveolar/pre-palatal with a tongue curled upwards, or even [ɹ̈] which uses the "centralized" diacritic to represent "bunched r" which is post-alveolar/pre-palatal and has the sides of the tongue spread out towards the molars and a strange-looking orientation/curl of the tongue called "bunching" (a sound found in very few languages, I believe only English and Dutch, and which is the realization in my dialect). You can use more symbols to be even more precise, e.g. add [ʷ] (labialized) or [ᶹ] (labiovelarized) since English /ɹ/ is often pronounced with labial constriction (constriction/tenseness using both lips) or labiovelar constriction (using the bottom lip and upper teeth).
So right off the bat, you can change it to [dɹ̠æ.ɡən]. The /d/ forms a consonant cluster with the /r/, which means it's pronounced with no vowels or pauses in between them – since the [ɹ̠] is post-alveolar, it influences consonants in the proximity which have a nearby/relatively close place of articulation to shift towards / assimilate to its place of articulation. In a lot of dialects, this causes /dɹ̠/ to simply become [d̠ɹ̠], with both of them being post-alveolar. But in my speech, it goes even further and the /d/ affricates into [d̠͡ʒ] called the voiced post-alveolar affricate which is the "j" sound. Often a change like this is called "palatalization" because the consonant shifts towards a palatal pronunciation (palatal referring to the hard palate, the place of articulation of /j/ the palatal approximant which is the "y" sound in English), in this case becoming pre-palatal [dʒ]. But you shan't confuse this with the other use of "palatalized/palatalization", which is when a sound is pronounced with partial constriction at the (hard) palate, often transcribed with superscript /ʲ/ following the consonant (e.g. /kʲ/), although often times a palatalized consonant does shift towards a palatal pronunciation.
So then we have [d̠͡ʒɹ̠æ.ɡən]. Lastly, in my dialect /ə/ in certain contexts behind consonants often becomes [ɪ] – a near-close near-front vowel, similar to the "i" in "bit" or "industry" – or [ɪ̈] sometimes called "schwi" which is similar but more centralized.
So finally we have [d̠͡ʒɹ̠æ.ɡɪ̈n] or even more specifically [ˈd̠͡ʒɹ̠ᶹæ.ɡɪ̈n]. That would be an accurate way to phonetically transcribe how I say "dragon".
Some speakers may take reducing the /ə/ even further and delete it entirely, instead pronouncing the last syllable as [gn̩] – the line under the "n" meaning it's syllabic, which means that it's the nucleus of the syllable (the nucleus being the center of/only necessary part of the syllable, where a vowel would usually be), pronouncing the second syllable with no vowel. Then, you might see even more change with speakers assimilating the "n" to the place of articulation of the "g", making it a velar (pronounced at the velum, also called the soft palate) nasal, which would make the last syllable [gŋ̍].
And you would perceive all this as the word "dragon", even if you pronounce it differently than I do. That's the beauty of language. You might use different phones in the same context as me, but at the end of the day they're the allophones of the same phonemes.
Now you may ask, how the hell do linguists type this stuff conveniently? The answer is, they don't, it can be a pain in the ass to find a tool to conveniently type for linguistics because there's just so many symbols, often times you use something like an online IPA typing tool or google gboard on android.
Whoa! Thanks a ton for the additional breakdown and links! Saved this post and am still reading over it, and wanted to give you a quick reply letting you know I've seen it, appreciate it, and am in fact reading it all.
I guess I sounded angrier than intended or something. I just didn't want @glibg10b@lemmy.ml to feel stupid.
He can explain it to you, but he can't understand it for you. /s
I understood it, after I googled a lot of what they said. And I'm not trying to give them shit, they made an effort to be helpful, it just wasn't really.
But it was. And educated you as well. Win-win.
I mean the quality of an explanation is a matter of opinion. I already admitted it was a technically correct explanation, but I stand by my opinion. You can disagree but have failed to convince me to think otherwise.
Do you honestly see zero value in finding information, that when you couldn't understand, you ended up educating yourself about, finally learning something new?
Far from useless, and certainly many people here did understand straight away, as well.
You are being rude and unpleasant, as well as missing the point of what I am saying. Learning is literally my favorite thing to do with my free time and "finally learning something new?" Is a condescending way to ask what you asked.
Apparently you have never taken a badly taught class or anything similar and you simply have no concept of what it is I'm trying to talk about. Teaching in a complete way that is understood and isn't excessively verbose takes skill, time, and effort. Their comment wasn't wrong but it was not high quality teaching. It was obviously confusing for many people who commented and upvoted about it, and barring anything else, that is enough evidence to show the explanation is imperfect.
I don't want to talk about this anymore and I have no more desire to give you any more of my time in particular.
Just because I don't agree with your opinion doesn't make me rude or unpleasant. I suppose my first comment may appear rude if you are not familiar with the joke. Also, if you wish to stop engaging with a person, then consider not replying at length, and then doing what's pretty much putting your fingers in your ears. I'll give my piece regardless, as this is not a private forum and I'm allowed to write. Feel free to block me though.
Firstly: you calling a well written post as pretty much useless (not helpful) was rude from my pov. And one that's filed under a thread, on a shitposting board of all places. For one reason or another, you saw no value in a post, but 50 others did. International Phonetic Alphabet is familiar to most non-native English speakers, so maybe the discrepancy comes from native speakers being confused, and rest of the world not? Idk, but I found your negativity towards the very informative comment weird, and the accusation that it was not explained in layman's terms weird (because that's what his last paragraph was). There's only so far you can dumb things down, some effort and base knowledge from the student is required.
Hot take: Perhaps you were simply that one kid in a huge class that didn't get what this teacher told? Comparing a random comment in a Lemmy to someone doing a job they are being paid to do is downright weird, as if they were somehow required to hit the same level of professionality. I kind of figure that we might hail from countries with very different schooling systems. Where I'm from,. students are expected to work, Tom understand, so that the information sticks better as you were more engaged, rather than getting perfectly chewed up info to begin with.
Okay, I think I get it. When I say "dr-" the r is made with the tip of my tongue just behind my front teeth, but when I say "jr-" (like in badger), the r is made with the middle of my tounge in the middle of my mouth. Neat!
I love seeing linguists on Lemmy. Wish we had a bigger community.
To put it in layman's terms just focus on explaining that J is often [d͡ʒ] which already has a D sound in it.
you've written tree as "tshree" there.
Many dialects, indeed, pronounce "tree" as something one might perceive as "chree".
Aw crap, that's how I pronounce it. Now I can't unhear it
Hey there now. We aint knowing any of your elvish. Best keep that to yourself, ya understand?
Mae g'ovannen!
Gragon
Don't start the gif/jif wars again.
It's clearly yif
Жragon (ZHragon)
I think this is how you’re supposed to say gif
Джragon (dZHragon = jragon)
I sort of roll the bounce of the "d" in "j" into the r
Jereggin for sure
I didn't think so either till I pronounced it out loud. WTF is going on?
Pretend like you're french: j'ragon. It's the second G in garage or however you would say au jou sauce.
eta: if you're pronouncing dragon and jragon the same, I'm really concerned and alarmed.
In most Americans accents I think "Dragon" and "Jragon" would be indistinguishable.
I was so fucking confused until I tried saying it out loud. I'm so startled and impressed
Yeah if I slow down and pronounce it with intention, they're different. In normal speech though, it's basically "jragon"
Absolutely not. Am American, so I'm gonna go on a limb and assume most of my friends would also probably pronounce it similarly.
The way you say Jra-gon and Dra-gon is completely different in most accents on the West coast. I'm very confident in that.
I think the Midwest would probably say it pretty samsies because they're not emphasizing the first letter: jRa-gun / dRa-gun or jra-Gn / dra-Gn. Probably gets lost in the sauce a little.
Idk about East Coast, but tbh it probably is closer to Midwesterners dropping consonants and shit so who knows.
West-coaster here. They’re definitely two completely different pronunciations.
I'm a Midwesterner living on the east coast so that's entirely possible.
I grew up in the Appalachian and it isn't the same in my accent.
French would be like /ʒragon/ and English would be /dʒragon/
It was more like "french" how Americans think french is, sadly not actual french. It was to overemphasize the starting sound, since sometimes it's hard to isolate sounds and move them around like that (mouth position wise) when you don't commonly have other words that start with those sounds.
I tried it as well 🤷... sounds almost the same, except the one with the J is a bit more rough when prounouncing the first letter.
Guess you were dropped too 🤷
Actually, I was 😂.
SMACK
How I wish for the day English decides to upend everything and go phonetic with a truncated alphabet and word modernization.
We'd then go to World Standard Time. It's 13:00 everywhere, not just in specific time zones. We then go to a Year 12023 Human Era International Fixed calendar.
I'm with you for the alphabet and human era, but what's the thing about timezones? We'd still have to keep track of each area's normal waking/business hours, but it'd be less standardized and harder to remember unless there's something I'm missing.
The time zone thing means if the time on your clock reads 00:00 hours, it's 00:00 hours everywhere.
That means if I say I have a meeting at 14:00 with someone in China while I live in the USA, there's no conversion. It's 14:00 everywhere. Every clock reads the same. I know when to be on the call.
All it does is change what time people arbitrarily 'Get up', 'Fall asleep', 'start school' etc.
Say we arbitrarily say 00:00 is what 'midnight' would be in Britain at the Prime Meridian.
That means nothing really changes for Britain. But in Central Time USA, 00:00 means it's when we're just starting dinner.
No daylight savings times anywhere. Work places can set their own work times however they want. Nobody gets confused about having to convert time to different time zones for logistics which is the biggest benefit. If the ISS says it'll be over New York City at 13:37, I'll know exactly when to turn on my HAM radio.
I'd wake up at 13:00, get breakfast, be into work at 14:00. Get home at 22:00, etc.
You've literally just shifted the problem, those two businessmen now have to both figure out what hour their daily cycle starts on, to assess if they will be free or not during the time. The idea of "business hours" would just be "so what hours on the 24h clock are you 'at work' at?'"
Same problem, different calculation.
Except when you lived in that zone you'd instinctively know the local hours within a week of the change. So you just need to tell the other guy "I'm working from 0300 to 1100 tomorrow, when are you free?" Without worrying which time zone to reference.
It also would give a path to abolishing DST, since the main reason it still exists is "because other places so it". Using a global time would allow local areas to implement DST or not based on their own preference, without affecting anyone else. I believe this would quickly lead to most places abolishing it.
Note that I live in Saskatchewan, one of the few DST-free zones in the world (well actually permanent DST, as we joined the time zone to our west) and it's annoying that the rest of the world is always goofing around with their clocks. It's one of those literally pointless traditions from the days of gas lamps.
That is about as simplistic as a model as I can possibly give... now imagine the logistics of that bullshit when dealing with multiple time zones and actual transit times lol.
You can lament the fact that you're trying to be kind and figure out a good time for a call in such a situation when there's NEVER going to be a good one anyway.
With this, it takes out EVERY extra timezone calculation for shipping, receiving, internet clocks, code regarding time difference variables. SO MUCH.
code regarding time difference variables
Ugh, I HATE the pointless code required by the stupid time locales, DST, and how many languages force you to play along with it all when all you really wanted was an emulated hardware RTC so you could schedule a task to run 10 minutes from now.
There'd still be "timezones" where the divisions on what times everyone lives by are drawn, right? Like, in this state business hours are 14:00 to 22:00, and over at this other place it's 00:00 to 08:00. For simplicity and commerce those boundaries would likely look very much like timezones...
You'll still need to convert to the local time like we do now in order to know what part of the day that time is, but instead of doing that conversion once, you'll then you do it for all sorts of things and keep track of all the different times everything is in that other place too. Currently, you can look up the time it is somewhere (or add/subtract a number of hours if you're old-school) and when you see it's 8am, you know it's morning there. If there are no timezones, knowing it's 8am doesn't actually tell you anything anymore.
The point is that if I say 6 p.m., you don't know what that means for Mexico, and South Africa, and Malaysia anyway. Not only that, but the vast majority of the world that depends on those times don't care if it's 1st shift's lunchtime. The world runs 24/7. It doesn't just run from dawn til dusk.
Any of this 'extra step' calculation you're imagining is something people already do needlessly. This way those 'time zones' don't matter.
Train ships from NewYork at 1:00 a.m. and arrives at destination at 7:00 a.m., it then gets offloaded and trucked to Walmart at 11:00 a.m.
Congrats, no having to compensate for time zone differences. A=B=C
Not A=B-1 back to B+1 because you happen to ship over an arbitrary time zone line.
And also, not everyone even has the same schedules. USA has common "9-5" office jobs, in germany people more commonly start at 8. So even with timezones you still need the schedule adjustment to a degree.
I play online video game tournaments with players globally, one person will complain about having to play at 11 because it's so early and would rather play at 0, someone else complains that 16 is too late and would rather play at 7. And even with many people in that community being very experienced with timezone conversion, they still occasionally mix something up.
One single global time would just be better. But I also brought it up once on reddit and got pretty much the same reactions.
Plus a bunch of people would have the day turn over into the next day in the middle of the work day, which would be pretty inconvenient.
How so? Becky, I need you on that zoom call on Wednesday, 00:30 with our distributor Carlos in Mexico, the tax agent Amahle in South Africa, and our ship Captain who's currently in Malaysia.
No confusion. Everyone knows what time they need to turn on the PC.
No conversions for PC times, no shipping time charts, none of it.
You don’t see an inconvenience living in a place where a restaurant’s hours are
Wed 9pm - Thu 7am
Thu 9pm - Fri 6am
Fri 9pm - Sat 9am
And it seems perfectly fine to have it be ambiguous when you say something is tomorrow if you mean after lunch or after you sleep?
You can’t think of any clerical, banking, or technical inconveniences with having things carry over into the next day in the middle of the day?
No that makes very easy sense to me lmfao. Maybe you're just overthinking it?
First off quit using pm and am. It's a 24:00 hour system. Why are you denoting different days when it starts in one day?
Bank Hours:
Wednesday 2200-0700
Thursday 2200-0700
Friday 2200-0500
Sat sun Closed
Bam, now everyone in the world knows when they're open. Now I know if I'm road tripping I can stop at the bank without having to think about whether I crossed a time zone.
You are definitely underthinking it.
Imagine in another locale store hours:
Mon 23:00 - 10:00 (Tue)
Wed 0:00 - 10:00 (this is the very next day in real time, but since it opens one hour later it’s now entirely in the next day)
Doesn't seem like it judging by the non-reactionary responses lol.
Hell, we're going to actually need this system of time once we start spacefaring so we have a solar standard.
Seems like you’re just hand-waving the arguments against it, instead of considering what life would be like. There would be virtually no benefit but definite annoyances.
Seems like you’re just hand-waving the arguments against it, instead of considering what life would be like. There would be virtually no benefit but definite annoyances.
Ok now I know you're just fucking with me lmfao.
I feel like if wednesday at 3pm is the same worldwide, Thursday never comes.
IPA. it's English but with the phonetic symbols for each sound (instead of letters, so "ng" is actually one symbol: ŋ, and soft "th" is ð)
I'm shite at reading accents from IPA but I'm gonna guess northern England. Or California. Dynamic extremes! Which is right?
Not really. There's accents and things that mess that up.
Not really, because of accent differences. The best you could do is account for all phonemes distinguished across standardized varieties, regardless of their phonetic realization. Of course, you couldn't possibly account for all of them (e.g. distinguishing the Australian /æ/ vs /æː/ would be troublesome for British and American speakers).
How I wish for the day English decides to upend everything and go phonetic with a truncated alphabet and word modernization.
Also, drop the whole uppercase and lowercase nonsense. Just pick one!
UPPERCASE IT IS, WE LOUD NOW
THE QUIET UPSETS SLANESH
Not gonna lie, I like the cases if only to make scanning for proper nouns easier. The capital letters stick out. Maybe keep caps only for proper nouns.
I was having this debate a week ago when dealing with those strange proper noun cases like departments in an organization. They're sorta proper nouns, but then when generalized it goes back lowercase. Security Department vs security escorted them out of the building.
Having cursive, lower, and upper cases is really dumb though.
We could just add a new letter to denote a proper noun? Kick it up to modern relevancy with the @ or #? Lol.
MAYBE DO IT SPANISH STYLE AND SURROUND IT? @JOHN SMITH #JOHN SMITH#
No more having to use shift regularly.
There's definitely some weirdness in that. I feel like it's an edge case, though, and could just say to either refer to them as the full Security Department, or capitalize Security as well. Or go the German route and just capitalize all nouns, they're usually the most important part of a written sentence anyway.
Thinking about it further, there are a few use cases for caps in readability. Abbreviated, for example, so they're not interpreted as a word. I think the only one I really struggle with WRT capitalization is the arbitrary capitalization of beginning words.
That's a neat way to travel into the future 👍.
English could never go phonetic because of regional differences
Why would that change anything? Standard English is already the bar which it's based on. Do you think other phonetic languages like Korean don't have dialects?
Just because the UK's ability to speak English is fucked doesn't mean the written language doesn't have to be lol.
well Korean does have that issue in some cases, such as 잎 being pronounced 닢. and it is standardized based on Seoul hemegony, while southern dialects speak differently from how it's written. and then you have jeju dialect (jeju language) which is a whole other beast
13 month calendar pleeeease. Every holiday can be on Friday or Monday.
The spelling of someone who's breathing in the chemicals
What accent is this? In mine the D is hard and it sounds different
I believe it's called affrication -- changing a stop to a fricative.
T can become "ch", and d can become a "j" sound.
This can happen in some North American accents when you have a T or D followed by an r or a y sound.
Train might sound like Chrain*, Drain might sound like Jrain.
My favourite is "Tuesday", where some people add a y before the "oo" sound, and it becomes "Chewsday". Or "Chewsdi" if they shorten the "day" to "dee".
The "y" before "oo" can also happen in words like news and tube, giving us a potential for "Chyoob" instead of "tube".
I've found that t to ch before r is more common among Gen X and younger, and Boomers tend to only make the change before y. But Gen X and younger tend to not have the y in words like "tube", so that comes up less often.
D to J before r seems to be pretty common in all ages.
Getting people to hear the difference can be hard, especially if they're self conscious about it. If you can get someone to say "Dane" and "Drain" (without saying the words yourself), then you can probably hear the difference...as long as they don't know that you're listening for a dr => jr sound change. Most people, even those who make tr => chr and dr => jr naturally are still capable of producing pure "tr" and "dr" if they try.
TLDR - english accents allow for grotesque changes in phonetics and think it's ok
I wouldn't call it grotesque. "t" and "ch" are very similar sounds, phonetically.
I think we're all okay with language change, unless you're pronouncing the k in "knife", the p in pterodactyl, and the gh in "laugh" glottally instead of like an "f".
The knight's knife shines in the night. Now with an aussie accent:
the noyt's noyf shoyns in the noyt
Da naits naif shainz in da nait!
I never noticed that since I'm from the North East, but that definitely comes from our British ancestors. I always laugh at Simon Whistler (from his many YouTube channels) when he says "tube" because it definitely sounds like "chewb" 😂
TMI
You don't want to hear about my hard D? Why not? Is there some reason why I shouldn't talk about it? Very well, would you like me to show you it?
English language doesn't have an alphabet - change my mind (especially british, but american only made one step in the right direction and then stopped)
Джрагон... Cyrillic makes so much more sense, why the heck did we have to get stuck with Latin (+ 2 runes)...?
You must speak Russian or similar. Always nice to see some unexpected Cyrillic.
Немного...
That makes me think of the Hunt for the Red October. I grew up in Russia and still speak the language, feeling too lazy to switch keyboards right now. Did you learn it as a hobby or for work, if you don't mind me asking?
I only had one year in high school. Started learning because of how common it is in NASA / Роскосмос liaison operations (I'm going into space systems engineering, and all crew on ISS must be bilingual in Russian + English). But then cooperation and diplomacy fell apart so now we won't have a joint orbital project soon. It's sad to see it go but the hardware is getting old.
Ended up switching languages to learn Old Norse (I'm more into ancient languages), but I still pick up a few phrases in Russian every once in a while.
That's so cool, thank you for sharing. It's sad indeed that it's all falling apart. But how awesome it is that you're learning Old Norse!
Oh shit he is right
Shut up and pass the pasghetti.
pusjedi
Not in my accent.
It wasn't the dropping, it was the alcohol.
In high school, I wrote a play for my creative writing class where I named the main character Jrue—named after Jrue Holiday, one of my favorite basketball players.
Do y'all actually pronounce dragon with a j sound? How???
English phonology, American English dialects' (and other dialects') /r/ is usually pronounced retracted, post-alveolar/pre-palatal (usually bunched/molar), transcribed something like [ɹ̠ᶹ], so it causes alveolar consonants in the same cluster to retract/palatalize, usually into a post-alveolar affricate ([d͡ʒ] – the "j" sound for voiced stop /d/, [t͡ʃ] – the "ch" sound for voiceless stop /t/, [ʃ] – the "sh" sound for voiceless fricative /s/). The term would be assimilation (of place of articulation).
"Dragon" /dræ.gən/ -> [dɹ̠æ.ɡɪ̈n] -> [d̠ʒɹ̠æ.ɡ(ɪ̈)n]
You can see the same thing with words like "tree" /tri/ -> [t̠ʃɹ̠i] or even "street" /strit/ -> [ʃt̠ɹ̠it]
Would explain simpler but can't, break ends now, just know its because consonant pronounced in different place in mouth is conforming to being pronounced in the same place in mouth as other consonant that is right beside it (like with "in-" vs "im-", "impractical", which notably isn't "inpractical", or "incandescent" which notably isn't "imcandascent", or "indecisive" etc. etc.)
This explanation makes me feel stupid
They made almost no attempt to put it in layman's terms, which means as an explanation it is not very helpful unless you already know enough about the topic to not need to ask about it in the first place. Correct and unhelpful. But I guess they were busy.
Schools need to teach IPA. It's basically a universal language. (Lol plz dont hit me)
What would be a good place to start with IPA? Going off Wikipedia's pages on the matter is like Force's comment, well-intentioned but not a great intro as you flit back & forth across the tables making sense of it.
I also vaguely remember a similar experience with physical dictionaries, which I think tend to have some kind of IPA (or related) pronunciation guide in them. It's been awhile since I've used one though, hence the foggy memory, and some online dictionaries seem to have given up on showing IPA pronunciation guides.
this small 3-part video series is a good place to start:
part 1: https://youtu.be/xMEFr7ghMTg?si=08I3vCSiwQC4Iuve part 2: https://youtu.be/J3IO5K5ZGB4?si=u2SaJx6gv45tsI1V part 3: https://youtu.be/jkfSA4_DCfs?si=JlMkiv75njWzbG5k
then you can just look at transcriptions in a language you speak, and/or look at the chart and try to pronounce some of the sounds (good luck for that one lmao). a good place to look/ask is r/asklinguistics, r/linguistics, r/conlangs on reddit, they're pretty active
one thing i should clarify now is the convention you usually see for notation using the IPA – there's a difference between /broad/ transcription and [narrow] transcription.
you see, the IPA can be used in many different ways – it can be used phonemically, or phonetically, or sometimes in other ways.
Phonetically means the symbols represent phones. Phones are distinct sounds, they are a specific way of articulating/pronouncing/using your articulators (articulators being the things you use to pronounce stuff, e.g. your tongue or lips or vocal cords). Usually you will represent more phonetic transcription using brackets [ ] (narrow transcription).
Phonemically means the symbols represent phonemes. Usually more phonemic transcriptions are represented with slashes / / (broad transcription). Phonemes are sounds that carry meaning in a language – i.e., a phoneme is something that if you replace with another phoneme, speakers perceive that as a different word. A phoneme is generally made up of multiple phones, called allophones, all of which are different phonetically but the speaker of the language perceives them as the same thing – in fact the thing I described in this thread is a great example of that!
"Dragon" in English is made up of six phonemes, /ˈdræ.gən/ – /d/ the "d" sound in English, /r/ (also written /ɹ/) the "r" sound in English, /æ/ the "a" sound in "cat" or "ask" in English, /g/ the "g" sound, /ə/ the schwa sound/reduced vowel as in the "a" in "about" or the "u" in "medium", /n/ the "n" sound. /ˈ/ means the following syllable has primary stress (in English that would usually mean pronouncing it with fortis – louder/more tense, and with a higher pitch than the rest of the syllables). /./ is a syllable boundary, it demarcates the end of the previous syllable and the beginning of the next syllable. /ˌ/ would be secondary stress. Often times the primary stress symbol is omitted if it's in the first syllable.
When you write /dræ.gən/, that's kind of a "template" made of phonemes that are good for describing a wide variety of dialects' sounds – it'd be very cumbersome to try to write an extremely narrow, phonetic transcription of dozens of dialects' pronunciations every time you want to describe a word; using broad transcription, you can then leave it to the reader to further break it down into more specific, precise transcriptions whenever they care about a specific dialect.
So let's break it down – in my dialect, /r/ is pronounced as a post-alevolar approximant – that is, pronouncing with a continuous flow of air with the tongue behind the alveolar ridge (the bump on the roof of your mouth behind your teeth) and not touching the roof of the mouth as to not cause as much obstruction. This would be transcribed as [ɹ̠] or [ɹ˗], the symbol for the alveolar approximant plus the diacritic for retraction (pronouncing further behind in the mouth). A lot of the times, the /r/ sound in a lot of dialects may be transcribed as [ɻ] – retroflex, generally meaning post-alveolar/pre-palatal with a tongue curled upwards, or even [ɹ̈] which uses the "centralized" diacritic to represent "bunched r" which is post-alveolar/pre-palatal and has the sides of the tongue spread out towards the molars and a strange-looking orientation/curl of the tongue called "bunching" (a sound found in very few languages, I believe only English and Dutch, and which is the realization in my dialect). You can use more symbols to be even more precise, e.g. add [ʷ] (labialized) or [ᶹ] (labiovelarized) since English /ɹ/ is often pronounced with labial constriction (constriction/tenseness using both lips) or labiovelar constriction (using the bottom lip and upper teeth).
So right off the bat, you can change it to [dɹ̠æ.ɡən]. The /d/ forms a consonant cluster with the /r/, which means it's pronounced with no vowels or pauses in between them – since the [ɹ̠] is post-alveolar, it influences consonants in the proximity which have a nearby/relatively close place of articulation to shift towards / assimilate to its place of articulation. In a lot of dialects, this causes /dɹ̠/ to simply become [d̠ɹ̠], with both of them being post-alveolar. But in my speech, it goes even further and the /d/ affricates into [d̠͡ʒ] called the voiced post-alveolar affricate which is the "j" sound. Often a change like this is called "palatalization" because the consonant shifts towards a palatal pronunciation (palatal referring to the hard palate, the place of articulation of /j/ the palatal approximant which is the "y" sound in English), in this case becoming pre-palatal [dʒ]. But you shan't confuse this with the other use of "palatalized/palatalization", which is when a sound is pronounced with partial constriction at the (hard) palate, often transcribed with superscript /ʲ/ following the consonant (e.g. /kʲ/), although often times a palatalized consonant does shift towards a palatal pronunciation.
So then we have [d̠͡ʒɹ̠æ.ɡən]. Lastly, in my dialect /ə/ in certain contexts behind consonants often becomes [ɪ] – a near-close near-front vowel, similar to the "i" in "bit" or "industry" – or [ɪ̈] sometimes called "schwi" which is similar but more centralized.
So finally we have [d̠͡ʒɹ̠æ.ɡɪ̈n] or even more specifically [ˈd̠͡ʒɹ̠ᶹæ.ɡɪ̈n]. That would be an accurate way to phonetically transcribe how I say "dragon".
Some speakers may take reducing the /ə/ even further and delete it entirely, instead pronouncing the last syllable as [gn̩] – the line under the "n" meaning it's syllabic, which means that it's the nucleus of the syllable (the nucleus being the center of/only necessary part of the syllable, where a vowel would usually be), pronouncing the second syllable with no vowel. Then, you might see even more change with speakers assimilating the "n" to the place of articulation of the "g", making it a velar (pronounced at the velum, also called the soft palate) nasal, which would make the last syllable [gŋ̍].
And you would perceive all this as the word "dragon", even if you pronounce it differently than I do. That's the beauty of language. You might use different phones in the same context as me, but at the end of the day they're the allophones of the same phonemes.
Now you may ask, how the hell do linguists type this stuff conveniently? The answer is, they don't, it can be a pain in the ass to find a tool to conveniently type for linguistics because there's just so many symbols, often times you use something like an online IPA typing tool or google gboard on android.
Whoa! Thanks a ton for the additional breakdown and links! Saved this post and am still reading over it, and wanted to give you a quick reply letting you know I've seen it, appreciate it, and am in fact reading it all.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/xMEFr7ghMTg?si=08I3vCSiwQC4Iuve
https://piped.video/J3IO5K5ZGB4?si=u2SaJx6gv45tsI1V
https://piped.video/jkfSA4_DCfs?si=JlMkiv75njWzbG5k
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
I guess I sounded angrier than intended or something. I just didn't want @glibg10b@lemmy.ml to feel stupid.
He can explain it to you, but he can't understand it for you. /s
I understood it, after I googled a lot of what they said. And I'm not trying to give them shit, they made an effort to be helpful, it just wasn't really.
But it was. And educated you as well. Win-win.
I mean the quality of an explanation is a matter of opinion. I already admitted it was a technically correct explanation, but I stand by my opinion. You can disagree but have failed to convince me to think otherwise.
Do you honestly see zero value in finding information, that when you couldn't understand, you ended up educating yourself about, finally learning something new?
Far from useless, and certainly many people here did understand straight away, as well.
You are being rude and unpleasant, as well as missing the point of what I am saying. Learning is literally my favorite thing to do with my free time and "finally learning something new?" Is a condescending way to ask what you asked.
Apparently you have never taken a badly taught class or anything similar and you simply have no concept of what it is I'm trying to talk about. Teaching in a complete way that is understood and isn't excessively verbose takes skill, time, and effort. Their comment wasn't wrong but it was not high quality teaching. It was obviously confusing for many people who commented and upvoted about it, and barring anything else, that is enough evidence to show the explanation is imperfect.
I don't want to talk about this anymore and I have no more desire to give you any more of my time in particular.
Just because I don't agree with your opinion doesn't make me rude or unpleasant. I suppose my first comment may appear rude if you are not familiar with the joke. Also, if you wish to stop engaging with a person, then consider not replying at length, and then doing what's pretty much putting your fingers in your ears. I'll give my piece regardless, as this is not a private forum and I'm allowed to write. Feel free to block me though.
Firstly: you calling a well written post as pretty much useless (not helpful) was rude from my pov. And one that's filed under a thread, on a shitposting board of all places. For one reason or another, you saw no value in a post, but 50 others did. International Phonetic Alphabet is familiar to most non-native English speakers, so maybe the discrepancy comes from native speakers being confused, and rest of the world not? Idk, but I found your negativity towards the very informative comment weird, and the accusation that it was not explained in layman's terms weird (because that's what his last paragraph was). There's only so far you can dumb things down, some effort and base knowledge from the student is required.
Hot take: Perhaps you were simply that one kid in a huge class that didn't get what this teacher told? Comparing a random comment in a Lemmy to someone doing a job they are being paid to do is downright weird, as if they were somehow required to hit the same level of professionality. I kind of figure that we might hail from countries with very different schooling systems. Where I'm from,. students are expected to work, Tom understand, so that the information sticks better as you were more engaged, rather than getting perfectly chewed up info to begin with.
Okay, I think I get it. When I say "dr-" the r is made with the tip of my tongue just behind my front teeth, but when I say "jr-" (like in badger), the r is made with the middle of my tounge in the middle of my mouth. Neat!
I love seeing linguists on Lemmy. Wish we had a bigger community.
To put it in layman's terms just focus on explaining that J is often [d͡ʒ] which already has a D sound in it.
you've written tree as "tshree" there.
Many dialects, indeed, pronounce "tree" as something one might perceive as "chree".
Aw crap, that's how I pronounce it. Now I can't unhear it
Hey there now. We aint knowing any of your elvish. Best keep that to yourself, ya understand?
Mae g'ovannen!
Gragon
Don't start the gif/jif wars again.
It's clearly yif
Жragon (ZHragon)
I think this is how you’re supposed to say gif
Джragon (dZHragon = jragon)
I sort of roll the bounce of the "d" in "j" into the r
Jereggin for sure
I didn't think so either till I pronounced it out loud. WTF is going on?
Pretend like you're french: j'ragon. It's the second G in garage or however you would say au jou sauce.
eta: if you're pronouncing dragon and jragon the same, I'm really concerned and alarmed.
In most Americans accents I think "Dragon" and "Jragon" would be indistinguishable.
I was so fucking confused until I tried saying it out loud. I'm so startled and impressed
Yeah if I slow down and pronounce it with intention, they're different. In normal speech though, it's basically "jragon"
Absolutely not. Am American, so I'm gonna go on a limb and assume most of my friends would also probably pronounce it similarly.
The way you say Jra-gon and Dra-gon is completely different in most accents on the West coast. I'm very confident in that.
I think the Midwest would probably say it pretty samsies because they're not emphasizing the first letter: jRa-gun / dRa-gun or jra-Gn / dra-Gn. Probably gets lost in the sauce a little.
Idk about East Coast, but tbh it probably is closer to Midwesterners dropping consonants and shit so who knows.
West-coaster here. They’re definitely two completely different pronunciations.
I'm a Midwesterner living on the east coast so that's entirely possible.
I grew up in the Appalachian and it isn't the same in my accent.
French would be like /ʒragon/ and English would be /dʒragon/
It was more like "french" how Americans think french is, sadly not actual french. It was to overemphasize the starting sound, since sometimes it's hard to isolate sounds and move them around like that (mouth position wise) when you don't commonly have other words that start with those sounds.
Too many jrux
Jrove him to madness.
What a tradedy 😔
*trajedy
*trajeudi
Jaringly, Jave jid jeclare,
jreadfully jaft to jare
To jub 'jragon' with 'J',
jiminishing its jisplay!
joesn't jecency in jialogue care?
Hey smack me if you said 'dragon" and " jragon" out loud.
I'm just gonna give you a small flick on the ear since I tried but am physically unable to pronounce "jragon".
Airplane.gif
I tried it as well 🤷... sounds almost the same, except the one with the J is a bit more rough when prounouncing the first letter.
Guess you were dropped too 🤷
Actually, I was 😂.
SMACK
How I wish for the day English decides to upend everything and go phonetic with a truncated alphabet and word modernization.
We'd then go to World Standard Time. It's 13:00 everywhere, not just in specific time zones. We then go to a Year 12023 Human Era International Fixed calendar.
I'm with you for the alphabet and human era, but what's the thing about timezones? We'd still have to keep track of each area's normal waking/business hours, but it'd be less standardized and harder to remember unless there's something I'm missing.
The time zone thing means if the time on your clock reads 00:00 hours, it's 00:00 hours everywhere.
That means if I say I have a meeting at 14:00 with someone in China while I live in the USA, there's no conversion. It's 14:00 everywhere. Every clock reads the same. I know when to be on the call.
All it does is change what time people arbitrarily 'Get up', 'Fall asleep', 'start school' etc.
Say we arbitrarily say 00:00 is what 'midnight' would be in Britain at the Prime Meridian.
That means nothing really changes for Britain. But in Central Time USA, 00:00 means it's when we're just starting dinner.
No daylight savings times anywhere. Work places can set their own work times however they want. Nobody gets confused about having to convert time to different time zones for logistics which is the biggest benefit. If the ISS says it'll be over New York City at 13:37, I'll know exactly when to turn on my HAM radio.
I'd wake up at 13:00, get breakfast, be into work at 14:00. Get home at 22:00, etc.
You've literally just shifted the problem, those two businessmen now have to both figure out what hour their daily cycle starts on, to assess if they will be free or not during the time. The idea of "business hours" would just be "so what hours on the 24h clock are you 'at work' at?'"
Same problem, different calculation.
Except when you lived in that zone you'd instinctively know the local hours within a week of the change. So you just need to tell the other guy "I'm working from 0300 to 1100 tomorrow, when are you free?" Without worrying which time zone to reference.
It also would give a path to abolishing DST, since the main reason it still exists is "because other places so it". Using a global time would allow local areas to implement DST or not based on their own preference, without affecting anyone else. I believe this would quickly lead to most places abolishing it.
Note that I live in Saskatchewan, one of the few DST-free zones in the world (well actually permanent DST, as we joined the time zone to our west) and it's annoying that the rest of the world is always goofing around with their clocks. It's one of those literally pointless traditions from the days of gas lamps.
That is about as simplistic as a model as I can possibly give... now imagine the logistics of that bullshit when dealing with multiple time zones and actual transit times lol.
You can lament the fact that you're trying to be kind and figure out a good time for a call in such a situation when there's NEVER going to be a good one anyway.
With this, it takes out EVERY extra timezone calculation for shipping, receiving, internet clocks, code regarding time difference variables. SO MUCH.
Ugh, I HATE the pointless code required by the stupid time locales, DST, and how many languages force you to play along with it all when all you really wanted was an emulated hardware RTC so you could schedule a task to run 10 minutes from now.
There'd still be "timezones" where the divisions on what times everyone lives by are drawn, right? Like, in this state business hours are 14:00 to 22:00, and over at this other place it's 00:00 to 08:00. For simplicity and commerce those boundaries would likely look very much like timezones...
You'll still need to convert to the local time like we do now in order to know what part of the day that time is, but instead of doing that conversion once, you'll then you do it for all sorts of things and keep track of all the different times everything is in that other place too. Currently, you can look up the time it is somewhere (or add/subtract a number of hours if you're old-school) and when you see it's 8am, you know it's morning there. If there are no timezones, knowing it's 8am doesn't actually tell you anything anymore.
The point is that if I say 6 p.m., you don't know what that means for Mexico, and South Africa, and Malaysia anyway. Not only that, but the vast majority of the world that depends on those times don't care if it's 1st shift's lunchtime. The world runs 24/7. It doesn't just run from dawn til dusk.
Any of this 'extra step' calculation you're imagining is something people already do needlessly. This way those 'time zones' don't matter.
Train ships from NewYork at 1:00 a.m. and arrives at destination at 7:00 a.m., it then gets offloaded and trucked to Walmart at 11:00 a.m.
Congrats, no having to compensate for time zone differences. A=B=C
Not A=B-1 back to B+1 because you happen to ship over an arbitrary time zone line.
And also, not everyone even has the same schedules. USA has common "9-5" office jobs, in germany people more commonly start at 8. So even with timezones you still need the schedule adjustment to a degree.
I play online video game tournaments with players globally, one person will complain about having to play at 11 because it's so early and would rather play at 0, someone else complains that 16 is too late and would rather play at 7. And even with many people in that community being very experienced with timezone conversion, they still occasionally mix something up.
One single global time would just be better. But I also brought it up once on reddit and got pretty much the same reactions.
Plus a bunch of people would have the day turn over into the next day in the middle of the work day, which would be pretty inconvenient.
How so? Becky, I need you on that zoom call on Wednesday, 00:30 with our distributor Carlos in Mexico, the tax agent Amahle in South Africa, and our ship Captain who's currently in Malaysia.
No confusion. Everyone knows what time they need to turn on the PC.
No conversions for PC times, no shipping time charts, none of it.
You don’t see an inconvenience living in a place where a restaurant’s hours are
Wed 9pm - Thu 7am
Thu 9pm - Fri 6am
Fri 9pm - Sat 9am
And it seems perfectly fine to have it be ambiguous when you say something is tomorrow if you mean after lunch or after you sleep?
You can’t think of any clerical, banking, or technical inconveniences with having things carry over into the next day in the middle of the day?
No that makes very easy sense to me lmfao. Maybe you're just overthinking it?
First off quit using pm and am. It's a 24:00 hour system. Why are you denoting different days when it starts in one day?
Bank Hours:
Wednesday 2200-0700
Thursday 2200-0700
Friday 2200-0500
Sat sun Closed
Bam, now everyone in the world knows when they're open. Now I know if I'm road tripping I can stop at the bank without having to think about whether I crossed a time zone.
You are definitely underthinking it.
Imagine in another locale store hours:
Mon 23:00 - 10:00 (Tue)
Wed 0:00 - 10:00 (this is the very next day in real time, but since it opens one hour later it’s now entirely in the next day)
Doesn't seem like it judging by the non-reactionary responses lol.
Hell, we're going to actually need this system of time once we start spacefaring so we have a solar standard.
Seems like you’re just hand-waving the arguments against it, instead of considering what life would be like. There would be virtually no benefit but definite annoyances.
Ok now I know you're just fucking with me lmfao.
I feel like if wednesday at 3pm is the same worldwide, Thursday never comes.
ˈwʊdnt ɪt biː ˈbɛtə ʤʌst tuː juːz aɪ-piː-eɪ fɔːr ɔːl ˈlæŋɡwɪʤɪz ðɛn?
aɪ noː jɚ ˈbiːɪŋ fəˈsiːʃəs, bʌt ˈɪŋglɪʃ ˈvɑʊəlz ɛsˈpɛʃəli kən biː ə ˈɹiːəl ˈklʌstɚfʌk. ɪf ə wɚd ɪz tə biː ˌjunɪˈvɚsəli ˈɹɛkəgnaɪzd baɪ ɪts ˈspɛlɪŋ, ðɛn ðə ˈspɛlɪŋ wɪl nɑt ˈfeɪθfəli ˌɹɛpɹɪˈzɛnt mɛni ˈpiplz pɹəˌnʌnsiˈeɪʃənz... so nɑʊ ju hæv ðə seɪm ˈpɹɑbləm æz bəˈfoɹ ɛkˈsɛpt wɪθ ˈhɑrdɚ-tə-taɪp ˈlɛtɚz.
ʃwɑ ɪn pɑɹˈtɪkulɚ ɪz ə hoːl ˈʃɪtʃoː ɑn ɪts oːn
ɑn ðæt noːt, gɛs weɹ aɪ gɹuː ʌp :)
Is thi# arameic?
IPA. it's English but with the phonetic symbols for each sound (instead of letters, so "ng" is actually one symbol: ŋ, and soft "th" is ð)
I'm shite at reading accents from IPA but I'm gonna guess northern England. Or California. Dynamic extremes! Which is right?
Not really. There's accents and things that mess that up.
Not really, because of accent differences. The best you could do is account for all phonemes distinguished across standardized varieties, regardless of their phonetic realization. Of course, you couldn't possibly account for all of them (e.g. distinguishing the Australian /æ/ vs /æː/ would be troublesome for British and American speakers).
Hīr'z æn icsperimentăl sistăm ðæt s̄ūd würc ăcros SSBI (SSBE) ænd DĂ (GAmerican). Æz jū cæn sī, homăfounz ār spelt aidenticăly, wīc fōrmz ārn't rităn æt ōl, ænd plein vauălz ār dz̄enărăly jūz'd wið ðēr Roumæns saundz.
Strüt-Fut-Gūs-Cjur-Für Cit-Flīs-Nīr-Fir-Hæpy Dres-Feis-Scwēr-Fern Træp-Mauþ-Prais-Baþ-Pām-Stārt Cloþ-Ts̄ois-Löt-Þōt-Nōrþ Cömă-Letăr (tuc ðæt wün from Roumeiniăn)
Also, drop the whole uppercase and lowercase nonsense. Just pick one!
UPPERCASE IT IS, WE LOUD NOW
THE QUIET UPSETS SLANESH
Not gonna lie, I like the cases if only to make scanning for proper nouns easier. The capital letters stick out. Maybe keep caps only for proper nouns.
I was having this debate a week ago when dealing with those strange proper noun cases like departments in an organization. They're sorta proper nouns, but then when generalized it goes back lowercase. Security Department vs security escorted them out of the building.
Having cursive, lower, and upper cases is really dumb though.
We could just add a new letter to denote a proper noun? Kick it up to modern relevancy with the @ or #? Lol.
MAYBE DO IT SPANISH STYLE AND SURROUND IT? @JOHN SMITH #JOHN SMITH#
No more having to use shift regularly.
There's definitely some weirdness in that. I feel like it's an edge case, though, and could just say to either refer to them as the full Security Department, or capitalize Security as well. Or go the German route and just capitalize all nouns, they're usually the most important part of a written sentence anyway.
Thinking about it further, there are a few use cases for caps in readability. Abbreviated, for example, so they're not interpreted as a word. I think the only one I really struggle with WRT capitalization is the arbitrary capitalization of beginning words.
That's a neat way to travel into the future 👍.
English could never go phonetic because of regional differences
Why would that change anything? Standard English is already the bar which it's based on. Do you think other phonetic languages like Korean don't have dialects?
Just because the UK's ability to speak English is fucked doesn't mean the written language doesn't have to be lol.
well Korean does have that issue in some cases, such as 잎 being pronounced 닢. and it is standardized based on Seoul hemegony, while southern dialects speak differently from how it's written. and then you have jeju dialect (jeju language) which is a whole other beast
13 month calendar pleeeease. Every holiday can be on Friday or Monday.
Imajin Jragons
The spelling of someone who's breathing in the chemicals
What accent is this? In mine the D is hard and it sounds different
I believe it's called affrication -- changing a stop to a fricative.
T can become "ch", and d can become a "j" sound.
This can happen in some North American accents when you have a T or D followed by an r or a y sound.
Train might sound like Chrain*, Drain might sound like Jrain.
My favourite is "Tuesday", where some people add a y before the "oo" sound, and it becomes "Chewsday". Or "Chewsdi" if they shorten the "day" to "dee".
The "y" before "oo" can also happen in words like news and tube, giving us a potential for "Chyoob" instead of "tube".
I've found that t to ch before r is more common among Gen X and younger, and Boomers tend to only make the change before y. But Gen X and younger tend to not have the y in words like "tube", so that comes up less often.
D to J before r seems to be pretty common in all ages.
Getting people to hear the difference can be hard, especially if they're self conscious about it. If you can get someone to say "Dane" and "Drain" (without saying the words yourself), then you can probably hear the difference...as long as they don't know that you're listening for a dr => jr sound change. Most people, even those who make tr => chr and dr => jr naturally are still capable of producing pure "tr" and "dr" if they try.
TLDR - english accents allow for grotesque changes in phonetics and think it's ok
I wouldn't call it grotesque. "t" and "ch" are very similar sounds, phonetically.
I think we're all okay with language change, unless you're pronouncing the k in "knife", the p in pterodactyl, and the gh in "laugh" glottally instead of like an "f".
The knight's knife shines in the night. Now with an aussie accent:
the noyt's noyf shoyns in the noyt
Da naits naif shainz in da nait!
I never noticed that since I'm from the North East, but that definitely comes from our British ancestors. I always laugh at Simon Whistler (from his many YouTube channels) when he says "tube" because it definitely sounds like "chewb" 😂
TMI
You don't want to hear about my hard D? Why not? Is there some reason why I shouldn't talk about it? Very well, would you like me to show you it?
This is a great video explaining the phenomenon
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
This
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
English language doesn't have an alphabet - change my mind (especially british, but american only made one step in the right direction and then stopped)
English is a pictographic language with 26 radicals https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/pronounce
But it's really not a fun fact
Exactly! That's the most appropriate description!
Literal anglo runes work better lol... To the point that we added some to our Latin alphabet (U, J)
Jragon deez nuts on your face.
jeez nuts.
giragon
I don't know why I can actually tell the difference phonetically between "dragon" and "jragon", maybe I just pronounce things weirdly.
I think it's because d and j are different letters and are pronounced different.
Maybe the D being aspirated sounds similar to what sound the J makes.
https://youtu.be/RRs103ETh2Q?si=IxHkZH2MaKLAxj49
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Oh. Yeah I actually never noticed this.
Jk, one of my favorite YouTubers says iChoons just for fun.
I think this is the more relevant one for jragon: https://youtu.be/F2X1pKEHIYw?si=fhpyRYsQ8HuJ3YKs
Super interesting stuff.
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jropped
J is often /d3/ in English so yea there's a D
Джрагон... Cyrillic makes so much more sense, why the heck did we have to get stuck with Latin (+ 2 runes)...?
You must speak Russian or similar. Always nice to see some unexpected Cyrillic.
Немного...
That makes me think of the Hunt for the Red October. I grew up in Russia and still speak the language, feeling too lazy to switch keyboards right now. Did you learn it as a hobby or for work, if you don't mind me asking?
I only had one year in high school. Started learning because of how common it is in NASA / Роскосмос liaison operations (I'm going into space systems engineering, and all crew on ISS must be bilingual in Russian + English). But then cooperation and diplomacy fell apart so now we won't have a joint orbital project soon. It's sad to see it go but the hardware is getting old.
Ended up switching languages to learn Old Norse (I'm more into ancient languages), but I still pick up a few phrases in Russian every once in a while.
That's so cool, thank you for sharing. It's sad indeed that it's all falling apart. But how awesome it is that you're learning Old Norse!
Oh shit he is right
Shut up and pass the pasghetti.
pusjedi
Not in my accent.
It wasn't the dropping, it was the alcohol.
In high school, I wrote a play for my creative writing class where I named the main character Jrue—named after Jrue Holiday, one of my favorite basketball players.
I remember the teacher got a kick out of it.
Geesus... You're write!
*your
dragoj
Jungeons and Jragons
Roll the jice. 1J20 to attack.
drajon
Jropped*
I'm sure the Swedes would find a way yo fuck it up. "Yeah-ragon" or "Ji-ragon" or something.
deuce, dews, jews, juice
lead, led
don, dawn
but, butt
you, yew
so, sow, sew, soul
pain, pane, Payne
John, Jon, Jean, Jaune
Was only gonna due the first example butt turns out English has a lot of these.
It really depends on accent. For me, half of these sound very different.
This thread and all its comments make me itchy.
Haha
Jragon des nutz on ur face
My favorite version of this joke was seeing NakeyJakey spell Drew as Jrew as a gag, which makes Anjrew a valid spelling too
Kill the Drews