yeah this bill is not about tiktok at all. they're just using tiktok as an excuse to setup internet censorship for the future
Yep, this is McCarthyism and the Patriot Act all over again. We're really naive if we believe this is just about Tik Tok.
People acting more terrified at the loss of tik tok from their lives than they did during covid, while losing people from their lives.
Tik tok might as well just change their name to empathy box, because they have convinced their users that the act of watching content on empathy box makes them more moral and politically aware than the rest of us.
At the end of the day, we have to be nervous when a foreign nation has content reach to 80℅ of Americans. This foreign nation is banning Americans from accusing it of genocide while allowing an economic incentive for Americans to accuse themselves and everybody else of doing it.
Deep down, every one of us knows tik tok is a power nobody can or should be trusted with.
So when are we shutting down Facebook for their 2016 targeted ad campaign specifically meant to fuck with an election?
I'm 100℅ in favor of breaking Facebook into 912 separate companies.
But not having the current political power to get that done doesn't mean we shouldn't do it to tik tok while we still have the power to.
That's not what they're talking about doing. They want to sell TikTok to a US interest. Not 900 of them. This is literally a chance for Musk, Zuckerberg, Apple, and Alphabet to grab up the best short form video app for cheap.
That's all it is. It is incredibly corrupt and the state department calls that out in other countries all the time.
China doesn't allow US social media in their nation, specifically for this reason.
There is no reason two belligerent states shouldn't be protecting their citizens from each other.
But I agree the citizens need to protected from their own governments as well.
How does us banning TikTok make us any better than China then? How does it make us any more free?
The whole point of freedom of speech is that everyone has it, even that speech you hate. The answer is more speech.
Lets see Biden grow a pair and go on new media and answer actual questions, not softballs. Then maybe people will start listening to him. And maybe he’ll learn what we’re actually concerned about.
Most companies in all industries should be broken up.
Don't use TikTok, don't really care too much either way, but watching this whole thing unfold is starting to open my eyes to the ways these companies can shape public opinion.
They're apparently sending notifications to people to contact their reps and it seems very likely that they're promoting content that advocates against the ban.
I'm not a fan of censorship or blocking internet services but TikTok really seems to trying to make a good case for it.
This isn't the first time a company has done that. Uber famously used pop up ads to get people to vote for a ballot proposition. Enron went so hard on PR that everyone blamed the government for people losing the pension that had already been embezzled by the executives.
Yeah but that's okay because they're American, right?
If you’re gonna ban this speech, then you should ban all speech from foreign governments, including the propaganda Israel is filling our country with for their genocide.
But this same congress who is so ready to silence China is unwilling to silence Israel. And Israel is not our ally. Our allies don’t try to drag us into genocides.
My understanding is that while rights are inalienable, meaning we recognize that Chinese citizens have the inherent right of free speech as well, not just in our direction, I'm not sure we grant free speech to mean a foreign state gets to use its technology to determine our national conversation.
I'm sure there would be teenage trans kids who through confusion ended up pro hamas, but I think tik tok could almost be accused of creating and fostering a movement that is certainly close to that very thing.
Wait. Are you blaming China for the anti Israel movement in politics?
That's... Impressive. Hilarious too but also impressive.
I never conflated a pro-hamas movement with an anti-israel one.
If there are leftists or vulnerable minorities who have become indoctrinated into pro-hamas rhetoric, yes, I clearly think tik tok is responsible because these kids certainly aren't reading it on on storm front.
I am not interested in having a conversation where you pretend I am talking about the pro Palestine/anti Israeli government movements.
My dude. No leftist is pro Hamas. Hamas wants to create a religious ethnostate just like Israel wants to create a religious ethnostate. We ARE pro Palestinian freedom. But Israel is the one who keeps making Hamas the dominant Palestinian political party, in order to use them as an excuse to continue their genocide.
Stop pretending to know what the left thinks when you’ve clearly never actually spoken to their members.
If something a person says that wasn't personally directed at you doesn't actually apply to you, they probably weren't talking about you.
Sure and my racist uncle's joke about drowning a random person totally isn't just his black guy joke barely concealed.
The narrative has for months been that anyone who is critical of Israel is Pro Hamas. And now you want us to believe that's changed when someone is defending the most breathtakingly xenophobic bill in modern times?
Lmao. No.
You aren't talking to a narrative, but rather a human being. You understand that, yes?
As an Australian who gets bombarded by the US point of view and agenda from their tech companies - I think America could do with an outside influence undermining the government's point of view.
As the post points out - the US government is doing an incredibly shitty job looking out for its citizens, and if they were afraid of a propaganda machine holding them accountable and creating civil unrest it might be for the best.
It's just a shame the power that owns the means to do that happens to be china. I wonder if things will return to normal once the citizens pack away the guillotine
Undermining the US government's point of view is one thing, but the argument could be made they are undermining your viewpoint more than the US government's.
Oh for sure. I guess I despair because I don't see a way out of the bullshit without civil unrest, but I think we have all grown weak and soft in the middle and are just willing to take it. I'm not sure it's possible anymore and feel like the human race as a whole are just becoming slaves.
I used to think the USA at least had a semblance of justice and fairness especially compared to China, but I think it really is just every man for themselves now and greed is all that matters.
It's not much better here in Australia either. There is no sense of community, or trying to build a better society. It's almost applauded to be corrupt and selfish.
Can you recommend a remote area of Australia that's not terribly prone to fires and has good Internet? I may have to join you in November.
The government does a shitty job, but it is representative. American culture is dominated by billionaire worship, consumerism, and greed. We shouldn't be so surprised when our elected officials share our values.
Deep down, every one of us knows tik tok is a power nobody can or should be trusted with.
I disagreed with you up until this point. You're exactly right about this.
The problem is that nobody should have this kind of power. But our government thinks this kind of power is just fine as long as it's a US company they can control.
If nobody should have this power than nobody should have this power. Not China. Not Musk. Not Zuckerberg. NOBODY.
But we have a feckless, ineffective government written by racists 250 years ago and this is literally all they can do.
American social media companies are also controlled by foreign powers. I have no interests in common with the ultra wealthy and massive corporations that control this country. They are just as foreign to me as anyone in another country. I trust them less than I trust TikToc.
Right, but if you know all of them can't be trusted than the only logical thing to do is leave them behind, all of them.
Have you done so?
Actually, yes. The only exception would be YouTube, but I don't let the algorithm tell me what to watch. I have a handful of channels I follow, and sometimes look up a howto video.
you can subscribe to channels locally via newpipe or freetube, in case you want to degoogle.
I am much less concerned about foreign news reaching the American people than the outright lies being spread in the American news without people batting an eye. And the fact that a foreign government (Israel) literally owns our government.
Oh so a chinese news source pointed this out to the youth? Good. It shows that we are so sick of not being able to trust OUR news that we’re looking elsewhere. Banning TikTok won’t fix that. I won’t go back to CNN or Fox if you take away that option. I’ll continue to look elsewhere
Who’s next? Al Jazerra? The hindustan times? The BBC?
Are you actually fucking insane? How does the Israeli government literally own the US government? That's not even true figuratively. What the fuck are you saying
They don't actually want to get rid of tiktok. They just want it to be owned by a consortium of American billionaires so they can influence public policy more easily.
That is a just cause in theory
Except billionaires aren’t loyal to any accepted borders
Part of me would rather have it with capitalistic sociopaths that want to extract my money rather than an authoritarian government that is provably responsible for (multiple?) genocide(s). Like, in a perfect world, there’s a better system, but at least our government still, in theory, can control the businesses within our country. They won’t though.
an authoritarian government that is provably responsible for (multiple?) genocide(s)
Yes, US has a history of it. As a matter of fact, it was built on a genocide of the native population and is currently contributing to one in the middle ea
Whataboutism. One, in theory, I have a say for/against(in theory) another I don’t. It isn’t hard. But, yes, US bAd. Good job. Anything to actually add?
You don’t have to tell me about the murders of my ancestors.
Also, to follow up, the US government doesn’t control social media here, unlike wherever your bot farm is out of. Which is why your whataboutism really falls flat, cause one media company is controlled by an authoritarian government currently eradicating Uighurs and the other is owned by Zuck, who’s trying to idk honestly, drown in money?
I am not a synthetic bot, instead, I am a human being but yes, USA bad.
That, we’ll agree on.
The US government is controlled by the same interests and lobbbyists that control the government, so it's similar although not the same thing. Just because their interests align at this moment because the billionaires don't want competition and the government has a hard-on for Israel doesn't mean their right.
And for the record, I don't even use Tik Tok, and I personally think social media and shortform content is bad for young brains and probably causing a lot of ADHD and impairing my ability to read. But I find this whole bill very fake and performative and probably done for the wrong reasons. It's weird that we finally got an international perspective unfiltered by US media companies that bow to AIPAC and of course it's getting banned.
Our two parties that refuse to address relevant problems:
Skill issue
They're not protecting you from Tiktok. They are protecting their interests from China.
Not even. They're doing it for cheap nationalistic points.
Isn't Zoom supposed to be basically Chinese spyware too? Why are they trying to ban TikTok and not Zoom?
Rhetoical question. I know why. Zoom helps funnel more money to shareholders.
Because the bill lets them ban anything that they want, not just TikTok. All the have to do is assert “foreign influence” and they can block, censor, or force sale to “American interests”.
Basically these motherfuckers are doing their best to make it so you only see, hear, and read what they want. And if that’s not actually their intent, they’re leaving the door wide open for the next guy to do it.
And if the current guy doesn't get his shit together, that next guy is going to be the former guy and then the entire world's fucked.
Not true. They have to show that the company is headquartered in or owned by the "sensitive country".
Giant loophole for American Data vendors and marketers to sell data and targeted advertising to China. (Which is just an algorithm by a different name.)
Because the bill lets them ban anything that they want, not just TikTok. All the have to do is assert “foreign influence” and they can block, censor, or force sale to “American interests”.
How long until this is used against a Fediverse instance?
Usa invented the Online psyops/spy game with facebook/google.
Now they pissed china beat them at there own game.
Wanting to ban a app/service that basically gives your biggest economic and political enemy direct conact to the local networks/brain of your population is understandable.
I mean those are the reasons why china banned Facebook/Google years ago.
Reality is more complicated tho, cause unless the usa is willing to build a chinese firewall for themself, it will be impossible to keep people from using TikTok via VPN.
If the usa would actually care for its citizen privacy they could just outlaw closed source software.
willing to build a chinese firewall for themself, it will be impossible to keep people from using TikTok via VPN.
A majority of people probably won't bother and just move on. A decent chunk, 30/40% maybe but that still leaves a 70/60% reduction and it's influence permanently neutered so the gov will still see it as a win
unless the usa is willing to build a chinese firewall for themself
Honestly, I feel like in the next decade we're going to see a whole lot of great firewalls. Every other country wants to control everyone and get in people's heads. We're either going to invent some way to regulate this desire (unlikely, if you ask me) or end up with a lot of spying and/or fractured network 😞
It's my understanding this is designed for TikTok to be sold off, not to ban it.
Anyway, yeah I agree with everything else. Anyone "defending China" here is ignoring the Chinese firewall, but also everyone "defending the US" must also agree the Chinese firewall has a useful purpose. The fact is this is just about control and/or greed. It's not any more or less evil than all the other shit the governments do to control people. It's not going to hurt anyone here, but it's also probably not going to help them either.
I won't touch TikTok anyway, so I really don't care. It just seems like everyone is misunderstanding what's going on and hypocritical with their stance, whichever position they hold.
Which is still an unprecedented power we've consistently called out other countries for doing. Also, targeting a single entity is unconstitutional, it's a Bill of Attainder.
No. It isn't charging them with a crime, which is what a bill of attainder is for. It's only saying they won't be allowed to do business in the US. I'm fairly confident it is absolutely legal and constitutional, and also it isn't unprecedented either. For example, see Huawei.
You can argue ethics all you want. It won't stop anything, nor does it really matter in this situation. Ethics aren't in play, because this is about power. Regardless, it's equally ethical for the US to do this as what China does to prevent western companies operating in China.
It imposes a punishment without trial. That's a Bill of Attainder.
And being as ethical as China isn't a line I want to stand on.
You're missing a very key part of it, I assume on purpose. It imposes a punishment for a crime. No one is accusing them of a crime. I don't know where you got this idea from, but they're wrong. They may have said it very confidently, but it's incorrect. Doing this to "protect national security" is perfectly fine. The intent is not to punish them.
We're going to pass a law that punishes a someone or a group, but it's okay if we just don't say, "they're guilty of X."
Somehow I don't think the courts are going to share your interpretation. And in your own article they do not. Nowhere in the test does it state the bill must name a crime.
The last bullet for determining if it's punishment: "Was that a congressional intent for the statute to further punitive goals."
It fails that test. It isn't any sort if punishment. It's for "national security".
Oh? Could have fooled me. The anti-China statements from politicians are admissable.
If the government is allowed to hand waive anything under "national security" then it's a short trip to the work camp for us all.
The correct law is staring them in the face.
Sensitive country is defined by the following list, (xxx,xxx,xxx)
Any company that sells, or gives American data to a sensitive country; or cause their data to come into possession of a sensitive country shall cease operations in the US.
Any company allowing a sensitive country to manipulate their algorithm, examples of (but not exclusively) with targeted advertising, bots, or by manipulating the ranking of posts, shall cease operations in the US.
That achieves the mission and holds the entire industry accountable without unconstitutionally targeting a single company.
Helping the working class doesn’t net them a fat profit.
How is TikTok helping the working class? It's an app that wastes your time and sells you products. There is no intent to help the working class. Stop glorifying governments. China doesn't want to help liberate the working class or anything like that, if that's what you're implying.
TikTok doesn’t help anyone but that wasn’t the point of what I said. I was saying that the US government doesn’t actually help its citizens because it’s not profitable for them. The reason the government even cares about “banning” TikTok is because it means their tech buddies (specifically people like Zuck) can benefit from it. It’s corporate greed. TikTok doesn’t care about anything other than profit and data hoarding.
Ah, OK. I misunderstood. Yeah, the US isn't helping people the way it should, but that's not really related to TikTok. They aren't going to do that regardless. Yeah, it's all about money and power for all of this.
TikTok != China.
That said TikTok is a corporation that isn't trying to help either.
Absolutely, but I have seen people say China is using it to liberate workers before, as if they care. There are a lot of misinformed people out there.
Moreso gives google and meta a fat profit, and they bought congress. I personally also think that suppression of info about Palestine is a driver of the bill as well, and that rewards congress through the legal bribery that is lobbying.
It’s the corporate class protecting one another’s shared interests in the US. Kick TikTok out and suddenly it paves the way for a competitor like Meta.
They're trying to force a sale or ban it, and I don't think it's certain what the details are, so who knows what criteria the owner needs to have
(it might be so specific only a handful of people/groups qualify, so they can suppress the price and ensure it goes somewhere specific... It's shockingly common, especially when legalizing something or when other nations are concerned)
They're trying to force a sale or ban it, and I don't think it's certain what the details are, so who knows what criteria the owner needs to have
(it might be so specific only a handful of people/groups qualify, so they can suppress the price and ensure it goes somewhere specific... It's shockingly common, especially when legalizing something or when other nations are concerned)
Sounds to me like they don't want to ban it, they want it sold to American business at a massively discounted rate. Standard mafia shit.
I did hear a solid counter point recently.
All American social media is banned in China. Effectively, if we don't do something like this, the Chinese social media becomes the biggest (because they restrict ours but we wouldn't restrict theirs).
Mafia shit or international power politics shit.
The danger here is they could do this to Facebook or Instagram in other countries (eg India)and use this as a precedent. I'm not sure India wants to pick that fight with the US, but this is all a weird game that's being played.
But yes, on the surface, and the immediate impact, this seems like such a fucking dumb tone deaf thing that our legislature pushed through without most Americans wanting this.
If they had happened to write a good privacy law that happened to prevent most of Tik Tok's abuses, I'd have way less of a problem with it because then US companies who do the same shit would have to follow the same rules. But instead we let Zuckerberg and Musk do the exact same shit without repercussions.
But we have a government that's basically carriage with a steam engine bolted on plus a V8 and also rockets and the thing is broken beyond repair and we just have to wait until most people realize that to get out because they didn't install emergency exits.
That's a fair point, it is a game as much as it is a racket.
I think it's rather hilarious, how fast something can get passed if it's against a foreign adversary
Tell that to Ukraine funding
Right? It's probably less about foreign enemies and more about hiding genocide.
They aren't protecting us from TikTok, they are protecting themselves from us. They put a lot of resources into controlling mass media then got blindsided by social media. Now they have social media mostly under control, but only in this country. They can't risk the next Bernie Sanders giving people hope for a better world.
As someone who's never used tiktok, has no interest in doing so, and finds the whole platform + 99.99% of the content dumb as all fucking fuck:
The US government can eat my shit and hair
It's not about protecting the people. It's about who gets and controls the data. Data is the new oil.
Yeah the information age is turning into the profit maximized end game.
We all had access to information, then gave up our own in response. And now having specific data to find truly only the most useful and profitable people and marketing is the new gold. But honestly I think the data isn't actually as useful as oil. It's more like gold. And these companies are trying to sell shovels. Tools for scraping and using the data but eventually people must realize that it isn't enough.
Two genocides actually. The Russian and the Israeli one.
Is Russia doing a race thing? I thought it was an imperialism thing, needed access to Crimea for the black sea and needs to get that pesky foreign government out of the way to ensure that access
One is doing conquest while the other is doing cleansing. We all know which of those is the most evil one
Russia has killed over 30000 civilians, they have abducted 20000 ukrainian children and assigned them to Russian families, they have destroyed Ukrainian museums, churches, and art. It's just as much of a genocide.
It's ... It's the cleansing, right? Or .... Maybe, just don't... Just don't do wars?
The Ukrainian thing is more of a cultural genocide with Putin having a plan on "integrating" all current Ukrainians into Russian society, but it checks out, because "integration" means "throwing away their own culture for the holy Mother Russia".
You forgot the Uighurs, that is still happening
🤓 "Uhrm axetually, inflation is dropping and wages are slightly rising, so people shouldn't complain because the economy is actually great. They're really just imagining things and suffering because they weren't responsible with their covid checks."
Seriously, liberals think that's all people are upset about. They don't recognize that already existing trends and enshitification of capitalist products are making things suck for people. They don't appreciate that housing inflation has been way too high for decades, and that cheaper nonessential junk doesn't make up for it. Inelastic demand that the government will not address because politicians don't understand the struggles of new homeowners and renters.
When most people can't win at the game, they don't care to uphold it.
Someone is going to see this and downvote you because they saw you use the word "liberal" negatively and immediately think you're a right-winger or something.
But yeah, if the media outlets would understand that "the economy" (rich peoples yacht money) is based on garbage metrics, maybe they wouldn't act so offended when people call them out on it
This place has become more liberal recently. I don't love smug leftists who think being a socialist automatically makes you virtuous, but it is annoying to deal with people that aren't fully awake to reality. Capitalism is the problem, and while being scant on solutions and strategies is awful, not even seeing the problems is worse.
I just don't understand how some people think rejecting capitalism is going too far. Like it's bad, everyone knows it's destroying us, it takes nothing to admit it. Feels great to be anti-capitalist.
If you don't think capitalism is an evil system, you're not paying attention.
Don't leave out healthcare inflation. It's as bad or worse than housing inflation, but it's easy to forget until you need it.
Yeah, but as of July 2022 the credit bureaus don't report medical debt. After I got a surprise $5,000 bill in the mail after my copay for an ER visit where the doctor spent 5 minutes misdiagnksing me and sending me to to wrong specialist, I was able to tell them to go to hell.
Fucking tell me about it 😭
I really don't think people even understand inflation enough to realize "inflation is dropping" just means prices are still going up but only a little at a time instead of the near doubling it was a year or 2 ago and how little people have been wage matched to the stipl increasing costs.
ok, to be fair. There have been recent investments into people generally in poverty, in regards to improving their financial situation, as a means to improve their overall health, it's still in trial stages, and very new, but it IS happening, and it IS positively affecting people.
Also, "we" aren't really witnessing a genocide, i'm assuming to this is referring to war, if not, I'll take my leave.
There's like 8 recent 'genocide emergencies' declared by Genocide Watch not including Palestine and Ukraine
While interesting most are far smaller. The Manipur one has 200 deaths. Which is bad but more of a war crime than full blown Genocide.
last i checked, there is a wiki page with a list of "serial killers" and if you sort by death count, you get like 180? Last i checked, similar situation there i imagine. Some dude apparently just woke up and decided that he needed to violence. Gotta love humanity.
Should have said while approving/enabling of a genocide.
The current administration has vetoed multiple UN drafts for a conflict resolution over Gaza as well as other UN resolutions proposed. We're still sending the Israelis weapons. Neither congress nor the current administration care.
i suppose complacency is fair. Wouldn't be america if we didn't pretend shit wasn't a problem half the time.
Hey, at least they got one thing right.
“These are OUR slaves!”
So there's an app that's operated out of an authoritarian country that's spewing propaganda from a terrorist organization that's making you hate your own democratic government.
You can't understand why people might have some concerns over this if Tik Tok is your only source of information. And that only adds to the concerns over Tik Tok.
How angry are is the Tik Tok crowd over how China treats the Uighurs? It's all ok as long as you don't witness it on Tik Tok, right?
operated out of an authoritarian country
Parent company is operated out of China, actually company is operated out of Singapore, US, Europe.
Spewing propaganda from a terrorist organization
You referring to Hamas? They barely have Internet access, and they certainly don't get any special treatment on the app. The people criticizing Israel are not terrorists or terrorist sympathizers, and mislabeling them as such doesn't do you any favors. And TikTok has been allegedly suppressing any videos talking about that subject.
Making you hate your own government
Wrong. The only people making me hate my government is my government. I actually realized that Republicans pushed me left, but it was mostly the left that pushed me so far left that I want my guns back.
The TikTok crowd
You don't understand how many people are on the app and their demographics do you?
Parent company is operated out of China, actually company is operated out of Singapore, US, Europe.
Where do they make decisions about the algorithm that decides what you're seeing on TikTok? That's what's relevant here.
Also Huawei played similar games, but we later found out how connected it was basically just a branch of the Chinese government. If you believe the shell company shenanigans, it's probably because you've spent a lot of time on TikTok.
You referring to Hamas? They barely have Internet access, and they certainly don’t get any special treatment on the app.
I'm pretty sure the billionaire leaders of Hamas living in palaces in Qatar have internet access. Did Tik Tok not tell you that there are literal billionaires that are leaders of Hamas? Loses some of the appeal when you realize it isn't some rag tag group of freedom fighters but actually a fascist movement that wants to restore the ethnic makeup of a region to how it was in old maps. Something to think about when you see people cosplaying as Hamas at the protests.
And TikTok has been allegedly suppressing any videos talking about that subject.
Did you hear this on TikTok?
Wrong. The only people making me hate my government is my government. I actually realized that Republicans pushed me left, but it was mostly the left that pushed me so far left that I want my guns back.
You don't even have a cohesive concept of any kind of politics, other than hating your own government. Where did that come from? You obviously don't put a lot of thought into political issues if you swing from one party to the next and you admit the only consistency you have is a hatred of your own government. You've just proven my point about TikTok influencing you into hating your government.
You don’t understand how many people are on the app and their demographics do you?
Somewhere between 150 to 170 million Americans get their news from TikTok. Do you think that if there's more people getting news from a source where the relevant news stories could be decided by an authoritarian country somehow makes it less of a concern?
We know a lot of people use TikTok, and we know that ultimately authoritarians decide what is shown to people on that site. We know that people on TikTok are being fed disinformation, we know that people are being pushed towards being sympathetic towards terrorist movements. It has all of the signs of a campaign to destabilize western countries. But maybe TikTok has influenced you towards wanting to destroy your own country.
You fundamentally misunderstood several of my points and I'm assuming it was intentional.
You don't know who makes decisions on algorithms, so you're speculating without evidence.
I'm not surprised Hamas leaders are rich, they've been funded by Israel. Also, good job proving my point that you see any criticism of Israel as Hamas sympathy. That's like assuming every Democrat that criticizes Biden is a secret Republican. That's delusional and undermines your argument.
TikTok censorship has been reported outside of TikTok. Just like other social media. Why even argue on that point? That's something you should latch onto that we actually agree on.
I don't swing from one party to the next. I have moved further and further left BECAUSE of my government. You intentionally missed my point again. I have an excellent understanding of politics and that's WHY I hate the government. TikTok is separate from that entirely. I hate the Chinese government, and the Russian government, and most governments tbh. And we could spend hours discussing my politics, but that's just distracting from my very obvious point.
But maybe TikTok has influenced you towards wanting to destroy your own country.
Never seen a straw man so fragile. You don't know many of the things you claim to know, especially my motivations. But I can guess at your pro Israel intentions
From a third party perspective I think you sound pretty much like how that user has painted you.
Thank you for the third party perspective. Maybe I should edit my original comment to be more clear about what I'm trying to say
I’m not surprised Hamas leaders are rich, they’ve been funded by Israel. Also, good job proving my point that you see any criticism of Israel as Hamas sympathy.
Do you criticize the people cosplaying as Hamas in the photos of basically every Palestinian protest I see? Maybe you should tell them that Hamas is funded by the Jews.
You've gone too deep. You've fallen prey to the old antisemitic ideas that the Jews are secretly puppeteering every bad thing that happens in the world. This is a very old pattern we've seen before. Keep people constantly angry so they can't think straight. Inject conspiracy theories about an ethnic group doing evil things. Tell people they can't trust anything that disagrees with the narrative because they're secretly in league with that evil ethnic group.
Kind of on the nose that you're going with the Jews being the secret puppet masters. I mean it should be obvious by now what those conspiracy theories lead to. Look at the photos of German cities at the end of WWII. That is the end result of this kind of rhetoric. Then when you look at the images of Gaza being blasted at you non-stop, you might start to understand the pattern that you're a part of.
It's not the Jews that made Hamas what it is, that's just an insane antisemitic conspiracy theory. It's hatred towards Jews that made it what it is. October 7 happened because of hatred towards Jews. You're witnessing the destruction caused by hatred. You should ask more questions about the hatred that they're creating within you.
There was hope that the younger generation wouldn't fall for this kind of thing. But the cycle just continues on. Maybe the next generation will understand that they aren't too special to not become a part of this cycle of hatred and will be able to break it.
History does not judge those that promote antisemitism well.
I criticize Israel. Not the Jewish as a whole. I'll criticize any country that commits genocide.
By the way, by arguing with me (a gay person) that makes you homophobic. Does that seem silly? It's the same argument you just spent 5 paragraphs trying to make. Get a grip
The article is saying that it was a mistake to ever negotiate with Hamas. Are you saying you agree with that? There's currently a negotiation for a ceasefire with Hamas, by negotiating with Hamas that would be "propping them up" according to this article. So I'm concluding from this you're against there being a ceasefire. Is that correct?
I don't think it is. You're not thinking about anything rationally, you're reading everything you see as "Israel is evil" without any kind of critical analysis. You have no coherent position on anything other than you hate Israel. You're dog whistling antisemitism, and you may not even be aware of it because you're just repeating whatever you see in TikTok, certain that if you emulate the righteous anger you're seeing from those you have a para-social relationships with you'll be in the right.
Going along with the group on antisemitism isn't anything invented by TikTok. It's just concentrated it and made it much more addictive.
-_-
damn you got some long arms, never seen a reach like that before.
This conversation is spiraling. I'm not going to argue with someone who misrepresents my intentions or character. Or someone who blindly defends Israel despite obvious issues with its leadership. We could go in circles forever with your increasingly conspiratorial assumptions and accusations. I'm just gonna end it here before you sprain an ankle jumping to conclusions.
Uh, this is embarrassing but it's actually operated out of Singapore. The company that actually runs TikTok is owned by a Company with it's headquarters in China.
It's embarrassing that you think the existence of shell companies is anything meaningful.
Lol no.
TikTok was founded in California. Bytedance bought it later. TikTok still runs TikTok.
Seriously, I hate TikTok, yet I still recognize that everything you've said is bullshit. I get 0 news from TikTok and still know that none of your concerns are justified. Foreign countries can just buy your data from every other social media company. It's not uniquely spyware for the CCP.
There's no evidence that China has a secret backdoor to suppress evidence of their genocide, while Israeli and Christian fascists are openly manipulating social media to hide their genocidal actions and promote hate. TikTok is evil, but not a unique evil worth fighting in particular. They're evil as a social media company, not because of their ownership.
Democrats are ridiculous for supporting this, as they rely on the youth vote more than Republicans. If right wing billionaires take over TikTok to promote fascism, Democrats have shot themselves in the foot. If the app shuts down, they've shot themselves in the foot. This political theater will probably hurt them more than help, but they genuinely believe there are enough nationalistic liberals who give a fuck about banning TikTok to outweigh young people they'll dissuade. Nationalistic liberals aren't going to change their voting behavior much over this, while young people honestly might.
Edit: missing words
I've learned long ago from many conversations with MAGAs that the request for evidence is a tactic to get someone to waste their time. If I provided you evidence it would be rejected as being from a biased media or some other excuse. The indoctrinated cannot be convinced by words on the internet because you can always find other words on the internet that say the opposite.
But maybe take a moment to consider that you're behaving in the exact same way as the MAGA crowd when the sources of their narratives are questioned. Do you really want to be like the MAGAs? Not able to question the motives of people that are shoving out endless narratives that making you constantly angry? Is that who you want to be? Someone that's made to be constantly angry and just trusting that authoritarians would never try to manipulate you?
Do you think Xi Jinping is a good guy in the same way as the MAGAs think Vldimir Putin is a good guy? Yeah they're authoritarians but they'd never ever cross the line and use their power to manipulate you... right?
Crafting strawmen and equating me with American fascists and Chinese fascists? You're hilarious. I make the mistake of assuming people are bad faith actors sometimes. That's why I try to account for nuance in my responses, allowing geniuses like you to completely gloss over my actual arguments like cartoons stepping on rakes.
People just don't want to comprehend my arguments, as they might actually need to question their opinions if they do. It's not even indoctrination per say, your brain is just protecting itself from having to challenge your beliefs or identity.
China's government is bad. They are not socialists, but national socialists interested in their own power. I've seen no evidence of TikTok being manipulated behind the scenes at the moment, while Twitter is being openly manipulated by Musk to push fascism. Facebook, Reddit, and Instagram are a hive of manipulation that the owners refuse to moderate unless it pleases advertisers, allowing unscrupulous movements of tribalism and lies to spread unimpeded. The Democrats are making a TACTICAL blunder in banning TikTok, endangering democracy in the process.
Do you understand, or is this still too much for you to grasp?
I don’t think it’s about the data as much. If you can predict and influence the civilian population of your global competition, that’s immense power from abroad. I could see a national threat. It’s not an accident that hearts and minds are underlined when attempting to project power into a region.
And they already can, probably more effectively on other platforms as well. This bill will not address the issue. They'd need to target all social media companies instead of just one. If fascists unwilling to do basic moderation acquire TikTok, the problem will only become worse.
When all social media companies oppose a bill, maybe we'll actually have something effective.
Except that America can tell American companies not to do certain things. You can’t stop china from essentially causing instability here through tiktok, they own it. You could stop them if they were using Reddit, Facebook, etc. it’s not going to happen. But to pretend that a foreign owned mass media app is anything but a way to control a population, or narrative, is sort of funny. America does it with their shit. Why would we not be more threatened by something abroad. Why would a nation allow foreign propaganda?
We won't tell companies to do anything at the moment, and yet this is somehow a priority. It is a problem, but it isn't as pressing and they aren't addressing it well.
Well the Chinese communist party isn’t a US owned company. So, it is most definitely a priority. This isn’t the first time it’s almost been banned. It is a pressing concern. Why don’t you feel that it is?
We also fined the shit out of YouTube in 2019 for collecting and selling children’s data without consent. Can’t do that with the CCP. I’m actually shocked that I’m proud of the FTC for once.
Priority in comparison to every other national security concern? No, definitely not. Not even as far as keeping American data away from adversaries.
We need to focus on regulating who all social media companies sell their data to, not just who "owns" a single company. Twitter could sell extensive user data to Russia, yet not face the same repercussions as TikTok. Google probably sells more useful data to the Chinese government than TikTok could, all while not getting punished in any way. Banning TikTok does more harm to the Chinese shareholders than the Chinese military.
You think the $170 fine against YouTube stopped them targeting kids? That's just the cost of doing business. Do performative bullshit and pay a one time tax every decade or so. That's all fines can do. Unless the fine is ongoing and harsh relative to the company's size, it doesn't move the needle much.
The current YouTube algorithm demonetizes all videos with swearing or adult themes. Advertisers pay to target kids more than ever. That's a big motivation behind making videos "advertiser friendly." It's like how blockbuster movies push for a pg13 rating; to target impressionable kids with disposable income. Advertisers know kids have more free time and less fiscal responsibility. It's less about moral values that adults hold nowadays, and more about getting money from parents through their kids.
You don't seem to understand how tech companies actually operate, or what the government could actually do to keep Americans safe. The problems are actually worse than you think. The government doesn't make much of a difference because politicians are unwilling to take meaningful action.
There are Hollywood level propaganda ads being played on multiple platforms as well as the fkn superbowl. So I'm gonna assume the terrorist propaganda you are talking about is the Israeli government.
This post is inaccurate. It fails to state that you actually work 2 jobs each at 25 hours a week so neither megacorp has to provide any benefits, and you'll be fired from one next week because despite requesting otherwise they keep scheduling overlapping shifts and you can only go to one job at a time.
Honestly the genocide part of this meme bothers me. It's not just one after all.
Waiting for ban on Australian infiltration and manipulation of the American populace.
If that's Rupert Murdoch, he had to get US citizenship to be allowed to own Fox.
Quick Google search:
"Generally, there are no restrictions on foreign ownership of a company formed in the United States. The procedure for a foreign citizen to form a company in the US is the same as for a US resident."
Broadcast news is one of the exceptions:
Under federal regulations an alien may not own more than 20% of a broadcast license.
The missing link is to recognize that billionaires are citizens only technically. They have no interest in the well-being of their nation (or even their planet), nor are they subject to any of its laws.
Whataboutism
No. I really do want my government to focus on governing instead of handing itself unprecedented and unconstitutional powers to force private sales.
frfr, i can't believe how many smug takes i saw about this the day it passed. left and right giddy to oppress the youth just because the dances are stupid
In fact they are not only purposely funding the genocide, they are actively ignoring majority of people against it, even surpassing the senate just to be sure they can send the money to Israel quickly
Actually since TikTok is where most of the popular support for Palestine is from and probably why after decades of this genocide it finally became well-known, they are trying to shut it down, since China won't censor it for them. Classic fascist moves from the government.
Did we forget about the Uighur’s? China isn’t even TRYING to hide that, but, yeah. Except that they ban any mention of it within their borders.
Mind you, I’m not trying to take away from what the US is and has done, but, currently, the only super power locked in a provable genocide, is china. Simple as that. The US is so fucking sideways that we’re simultaneously bringing food into Gaza while also supporting its destruction. Really nothing new there, money goes up. But, different than state sponsored genocide. Fuck, I hate that that’s a buzzword.
the only super power locked in a provable genocide, is china
This statement is absolutely false. Isreal genocide is almost exlusively funded by the US.
we’re simultaneously bringing food into Gaza while also supporting its destruction
Small amounts of food into gaza is PR and changes nothing in the big picture. There is a big difference in amount of money sent for weapons to Isreal and food to Gaza. You can send few trucks of food, get pirctures, run it in media, and then silently give billions for weapons. There is no two sides of this, US government is fully running a genocide in Gaza with full knowledge and intent.
There is nothing that Chinese government does that US and Russia government don't do as well. There is only difference in the media coverege of these things in each of the countries and is the result of difference in opinion between people who are exposed to that media.
The very concept of a state is the problem.
State - a group of people who claim they are allowed to use violence to get their way and that nobody else is allowed to protect themselves from this violence.
(Others may define "state" to be essentially synonymous with "government". The above definition contains the only quality in common with every entity I am speaking of.)
There is no reality in which any state is not taken over by those willing to cause the harm necessary to do so.
This does not mean the best course of action is attempted immediate destruction of any state, that will cause the boot to stomp harder on us. The best course of action is minimize dependence on the economic system that state depends on. That is to say, growing some portion of your food is just about as radical as it gets.
Save me from TikTok because of what? I mean, we know the hidden reasoning, but what is the official concern?
officially: data mining and algorithm manipulation to promote propaganda
unofficially: data mining that hasn't been approved by the US government and algorithm manipulation to promote propaganda that hasn't been approved by the US government
Chy-na!
...and TikTok will still have horrible data privacy and domestic spying capabilities, it will just be owned by US Big Tech instead of Chinese Big Tech.
Glad we can keep Chinese billionaires from influencing politics for cheap, they will have to pay an American billionaire to do it like Russia does.
There's no world where they sell to preserve 10% of their users
Is the distribution significantly different on other social media platforms? Because if not, what you're insinuating might not actually be real.
The government isn't protecting us from tictok, they are protecting themselves...
Who said the government doesn't do anything for the public?
Uh 50 hr work week and $7.25/hr wage is where you lost me. Nobody is getting paid that minimum wage. That's just bad faith.
Don’t forget this part
yeah this bill is not about tiktok at all. they're just using tiktok as an excuse to setup internet censorship for the future
Yep, this is McCarthyism and the Patriot Act all over again. We're really naive if we believe this is just about Tik Tok.
People acting more terrified at the loss of tik tok from their lives than they did during covid, while losing people from their lives.
Tik tok might as well just change their name to empathy box, because they have convinced their users that the act of watching content on empathy box makes them more moral and politically aware than the rest of us.
At the end of the day, we have to be nervous when a foreign nation has content reach to 80℅ of Americans. This foreign nation is banning Americans from accusing it of genocide while allowing an economic incentive for Americans to accuse themselves and everybody else of doing it.
Deep down, every one of us knows tik tok is a power nobody can or should be trusted with.
So when are we shutting down Facebook for their 2016 targeted ad campaign specifically meant to fuck with an election?
I'm 100℅ in favor of breaking Facebook into 912 separate companies.
But not having the current political power to get that done doesn't mean we shouldn't do it to tik tok while we still have the power to.
That's not what they're talking about doing. They want to sell TikTok to a US interest. Not 900 of them. This is literally a chance for Musk, Zuckerberg, Apple, and Alphabet to grab up the best short form video app for cheap.
That's all it is. It is incredibly corrupt and the state department calls that out in other countries all the time.
China doesn't allow US social media in their nation, specifically for this reason.
There is no reason two belligerent states shouldn't be protecting their citizens from each other.
But I agree the citizens need to protected from their own governments as well.
How does us banning TikTok make us any better than China then? How does it make us any more free?
The whole point of freedom of speech is that everyone has it, even that speech you hate. The answer is more speech.
Lets see Biden grow a pair and go on new media and answer actual questions, not softballs. Then maybe people will start listening to him. And maybe he’ll learn what we’re actually concerned about.
Most companies in all industries should be broken up.
Don't use TikTok, don't really care too much either way, but watching this whole thing unfold is starting to open my eyes to the ways these companies can shape public opinion.
They're apparently sending notifications to people to contact their reps and it seems very likely that they're promoting content that advocates against the ban.
I'm not a fan of censorship or blocking internet services but TikTok really seems to trying to make a good case for it.
This isn't the first time a company has done that. Uber famously used pop up ads to get people to vote for a ballot proposition. Enron went so hard on PR that everyone blamed the government for people losing the pension that had already been embezzled by the executives.
Yeah but that's okay because they're American, right?
If you’re gonna ban this speech, then you should ban all speech from foreign governments, including the propaganda Israel is filling our country with for their genocide.
But this same congress who is so ready to silence China is unwilling to silence Israel. And Israel is not our ally. Our allies don’t try to drag us into genocides.
My understanding is that while rights are inalienable, meaning we recognize that Chinese citizens have the inherent right of free speech as well, not just in our direction, I'm not sure we grant free speech to mean a foreign state gets to use its technology to determine our national conversation.
I'm sure there would be teenage trans kids who through confusion ended up pro hamas, but I think tik tok could almost be accused of creating and fostering a movement that is certainly close to that very thing.
Wait. Are you blaming China for the anti Israel movement in politics?
That's... Impressive. Hilarious too but also impressive.
I never conflated a pro-hamas movement with an anti-israel one.
If there are leftists or vulnerable minorities who have become indoctrinated into pro-hamas rhetoric, yes, I clearly think tik tok is responsible because these kids certainly aren't reading it on on storm front.
I am not interested in having a conversation where you pretend I am talking about the pro Palestine/anti Israeli government movements.
My dude. No leftist is pro Hamas. Hamas wants to create a religious ethnostate just like Israel wants to create a religious ethnostate. We ARE pro Palestinian freedom. But Israel is the one who keeps making Hamas the dominant Palestinian political party, in order to use them as an excuse to continue their genocide.
Stop pretending to know what the left thinks when you’ve clearly never actually spoken to their members.
If something a person says that wasn't personally directed at you doesn't actually apply to you, they probably weren't talking about you.
Sure and my racist uncle's joke about drowning a random person totally isn't just his black guy joke barely concealed.
The narrative has for months been that anyone who is critical of Israel is Pro Hamas. And now you want us to believe that's changed when someone is defending the most breathtakingly xenophobic bill in modern times?
Lmao. No.
You aren't talking to a narrative, but rather a human being. You understand that, yes?
As an Australian who gets bombarded by the US point of view and agenda from their tech companies - I think America could do with an outside influence undermining the government's point of view.
As the post points out - the US government is doing an incredibly shitty job looking out for its citizens, and if they were afraid of a propaganda machine holding them accountable and creating civil unrest it might be for the best.
It's just a shame the power that owns the means to do that happens to be china. I wonder if things will return to normal once the citizens pack away the guillotine
Undermining the US government's point of view is one thing, but the argument could be made they are undermining your viewpoint more than the US government's.
Oh for sure. I guess I despair because I don't see a way out of the bullshit without civil unrest, but I think we have all grown weak and soft in the middle and are just willing to take it. I'm not sure it's possible anymore and feel like the human race as a whole are just becoming slaves.
I used to think the USA at least had a semblance of justice and fairness especially compared to China, but I think it really is just every man for themselves now and greed is all that matters.
It's not much better here in Australia either. There is no sense of community, or trying to build a better society. It's almost applauded to be corrupt and selfish.
Can you recommend a remote area of Australia that's not terribly prone to fires and has good Internet? I may have to join you in November.
The government does a shitty job, but it is representative. American culture is dominated by billionaire worship, consumerism, and greed. We shouldn't be so surprised when our elected officials share our values.
I disagreed with you up until this point. You're exactly right about this.
The problem is that nobody should have this kind of power. But our government thinks this kind of power is just fine as long as it's a US company they can control.
If nobody should have this power than nobody should have this power. Not China. Not Musk. Not Zuckerberg. NOBODY.
But we have a feckless, ineffective government written by racists 250 years ago and this is literally all they can do.
American social media companies are also controlled by foreign powers. I have no interests in common with the ultra wealthy and massive corporations that control this country. They are just as foreign to me as anyone in another country. I trust them less than I trust TikToc.
Right, but if you know all of them can't be trusted than the only logical thing to do is leave them behind, all of them.
Have you done so?
Actually, yes. The only exception would be YouTube, but I don't let the algorithm tell me what to watch. I have a handful of channels I follow, and sometimes look up a howto video.
you can subscribe to channels locally via newpipe or freetube, in case you want to degoogle.
I am much less concerned about foreign news reaching the American people than the outright lies being spread in the American news without people batting an eye. And the fact that a foreign government (Israel) literally owns our government.
Oh so a chinese news source pointed this out to the youth? Good. It shows that we are so sick of not being able to trust OUR news that we’re looking elsewhere. Banning TikTok won’t fix that. I won’t go back to CNN or Fox if you take away that option. I’ll continue to look elsewhere
Who’s next? Al Jazerra? The hindustan times? The BBC?
Are you actually fucking insane? How does the Israeli government literally own the US government? That's not even true figuratively. What the fuck are you saying
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlKmWa8p4UM
?
AIPAC bragging about how they lobby (which we all know to mean bribe) every US leader. Doesn't get more blatant than that.
A promotional video of a lobby organization says they're doing a good job, therefore the Israeli government owns the US government?
We can all see the results where almost every politician on both sides fully support israel, even as they're committing genocide.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=rlKmWa8p4UM
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
So glad to see this argument here.
They don't actually want to get rid of tiktok. They just want it to be owned by a consortium of American billionaires so they can influence public policy more easily.
That is a just cause in theory
Except billionaires aren’t loyal to any accepted borders
Part of me would rather have it with capitalistic sociopaths that want to extract my money rather than an authoritarian government that is provably responsible for (multiple?) genocide(s). Like, in a perfect world, there’s a better system, but at least our government still, in theory, can control the businesses within our country. They won’t though.
Yes, US has a history of it. As a matter of fact, it was built on a genocide of the native population and is currently contributing to one in the middle ea
Whataboutism. One, in theory, I have a say for/against(in theory) another I don’t. It isn’t hard. But, yes, US bAd. Good job. Anything to actually add?
You don’t have to tell me about the murders of my ancestors.
Also, to follow up, the US government doesn’t control social media here, unlike wherever your bot farm is out of. Which is why your whataboutism really falls flat, cause one media company is controlled by an authoritarian government currently eradicating Uighurs and the other is owned by Zuck, who’s trying to idk honestly, drown in money?
I am not a synthetic bot, instead, I am a human being but yes, USA bad.
That, we’ll agree on.
The US government is controlled by the same interests and lobbbyists that control the government, so it's similar although not the same thing. Just because their interests align at this moment because the billionaires don't want competition and the government has a hard-on for Israel doesn't mean their right.
And for the record, I don't even use Tik Tok, and I personally think social media and shortform content is bad for young brains and probably causing a lot of ADHD and impairing my ability to read. But I find this whole bill very fake and performative and probably done for the wrong reasons. It's weird that we finally got an international perspective unfiltered by US media companies that bow to AIPAC and of course it's getting banned.
Our two parties that refuse to address relevant problems:
They're not protecting you from Tiktok. They are protecting their interests from China.
Not even. They're doing it for cheap nationalistic points.
Isn't Zoom supposed to be basically Chinese spyware too? Why are they trying to ban TikTok and not Zoom?
Rhetoical question. I know why. Zoom helps funnel more money to shareholders.
Because the bill lets them ban anything that they want, not just TikTok. All the have to do is assert “foreign influence” and they can block, censor, or force sale to “American interests”.
Basically these motherfuckers are doing their best to make it so you only see, hear, and read what they want. And if that’s not actually their intent, they’re leaving the door wide open for the next guy to do it.
And if the current guy doesn't get his shit together, that next guy is going to be the former guy and then the entire world's fucked.
Not true. They have to show that the company is headquartered in or owned by the "sensitive country".
Giant loophole for American Data vendors and marketers to sell data and targeted advertising to China. (Which is just an algorithm by a different name.)
How long until this is used against a Fediverse instance?
There's also this.
Usa invented the Online psyops/spy game with facebook/google. Now they pissed china beat them at there own game.
Wanting to ban a app/service that basically gives your biggest economic and political enemy direct conact to the local networks/brain of your population is understandable.
I mean those are the reasons why china banned Facebook/Google years ago.
Reality is more complicated tho, cause unless the usa is willing to build a chinese firewall for themself, it will be impossible to keep people from using TikTok via VPN.
If the usa would actually care for its citizen privacy they could just outlaw closed source software.
A majority of people probably won't bother and just move on. A decent chunk, 30/40% maybe but that still leaves a 70/60% reduction and it's influence permanently neutered so the gov will still see it as a win
Honestly, I feel like in the next decade we're going to see a whole lot of great firewalls. Every other country wants to control everyone and get in people's heads. We're either going to invent some way to regulate this desire (unlikely, if you ask me) or end up with a lot of spying and/or fractured network 😞
It's my understanding this is designed for TikTok to be sold off, not to ban it.
Anyway, yeah I agree with everything else. Anyone "defending China" here is ignoring the Chinese firewall, but also everyone "defending the US" must also agree the Chinese firewall has a useful purpose. The fact is this is just about control and/or greed. It's not any more or less evil than all the other shit the governments do to control people. It's not going to hurt anyone here, but it's also probably not going to help them either.
I won't touch TikTok anyway, so I really don't care. It just seems like everyone is misunderstanding what's going on and hypocritical with their stance, whichever position they hold.
Which is still an unprecedented power we've consistently called out other countries for doing. Also, targeting a single entity is unconstitutional, it's a Bill of Attainder.
No. It isn't charging them with a crime, which is what a bill of attainder is for. It's only saying they won't be allowed to do business in the US. I'm fairly confident it is absolutely legal and constitutional, and also it isn't unprecedented either. For example, see Huawei.
You can argue ethics all you want. It won't stop anything, nor does it really matter in this situation. Ethics aren't in play, because this is about power. Regardless, it's equally ethical for the US to do this as what China does to prevent western companies operating in China.
It imposes a punishment without trial. That's a Bill of Attainder.
And being as ethical as China isn't a line I want to stand on.
You're missing a very key part of it, I assume on purpose. It imposes a punishment for a crime. No one is accusing them of a crime. I don't know where you got this idea from, but they're wrong. They may have said it very confidently, but it's incorrect. Doing this to "protect national security" is perfectly fine. The intent is not to punish them.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/bill_of_attainder
Oh, that makes it okay then.
We're going to pass a law that punishes a someone or a group, but it's okay if we just don't say, "they're guilty of X."
Somehow I don't think the courts are going to share your interpretation. And in your own article they do not. Nowhere in the test does it state the bill must name a crime.
The last bullet for determining if it's punishment: "Was that a congressional intent for the statute to further punitive goals."
It fails that test. It isn't any sort if punishment. It's for "national security".
Oh? Could have fooled me. The anti-China statements from politicians are admissable.
If the government is allowed to hand waive anything under "national security" then it's a short trip to the work camp for us all.
The correct law is staring them in the face.
That achieves the mission and holds the entire industry accountable without unconstitutionally targeting a single company.
Helping the working class doesn’t net them a fat profit.
How is TikTok helping the working class? It's an app that wastes your time and sells you products. There is no intent to help the working class. Stop glorifying governments. China doesn't want to help liberate the working class or anything like that, if that's what you're implying.
TikTok doesn’t help anyone but that wasn’t the point of what I said. I was saying that the US government doesn’t actually help its citizens because it’s not profitable for them. The reason the government even cares about “banning” TikTok is because it means their tech buddies (specifically people like Zuck) can benefit from it. It’s corporate greed. TikTok doesn’t care about anything other than profit and data hoarding.
Ah, OK. I misunderstood. Yeah, the US isn't helping people the way it should, but that's not really related to TikTok. They aren't going to do that regardless. Yeah, it's all about money and power for all of this.
TikTok != China.
That said TikTok is a corporation that isn't trying to help either.
Absolutely, but I have seen people say China is using it to liberate workers before, as if they care. There are a lot of misinformed people out there.
how does this give them a fat profit?
Moreso gives google and meta a fat profit, and they bought congress. I personally also think that suppression of info about Palestine is a driver of the bill as well, and that rewards congress through the legal bribery that is lobbying.
It’s the corporate class protecting one another’s shared interests in the US. Kick TikTok out and suddenly it paves the way for a competitor like Meta.
They're trying to force a sale or ban it, and I don't think it's certain what the details are, so who knows what criteria the owner needs to have
(it might be so specific only a handful of people/groups qualify, so they can suppress the price and ensure it goes somewhere specific... It's shockingly common, especially when legalizing something or when other nations are concerned)
They're trying to force a sale or ban it, and I don't think it's certain what the details are, so who knows what criteria the owner needs to have
(it might be so specific only a handful of people/groups qualify, so they can suppress the price and ensure it goes somewhere specific... It's shockingly common, especially when legalizing something or when other nations are concerned)
Sounds to me like they don't want to ban it, they want it sold to American business at a massively discounted rate. Standard mafia shit.
I did hear a solid counter point recently.
All American social media is banned in China. Effectively, if we don't do something like this, the Chinese social media becomes the biggest (because they restrict ours but we wouldn't restrict theirs).
Mafia shit or international power politics shit.
The danger here is they could do this to Facebook or Instagram in other countries (eg India)and use this as a precedent. I'm not sure India wants to pick that fight with the US, but this is all a weird game that's being played.
But yes, on the surface, and the immediate impact, this seems like such a fucking dumb tone deaf thing that our legislature pushed through without most Americans wanting this.
If they had happened to write a good privacy law that happened to prevent most of Tik Tok's abuses, I'd have way less of a problem with it because then US companies who do the same shit would have to follow the same rules. But instead we let Zuckerberg and Musk do the exact same shit without repercussions.
But we have a government that's basically carriage with a steam engine bolted on plus a V8 and also rockets and the thing is broken beyond repair and we just have to wait until most people realize that to get out because they didn't install emergency exits.
That's a fair point, it is a game as much as it is a racket.
I think it's rather hilarious, how fast something can get passed if it's against a foreign adversary
Tell that to Ukraine funding
Right? It's probably less about foreign enemies and more about hiding genocide.
They aren't protecting us from TikTok, they are protecting themselves from us. They put a lot of resources into controlling mass media then got blindsided by social media. Now they have social media mostly under control, but only in this country. They can't risk the next Bernie Sanders giving people hope for a better world.
As someone who's never used tiktok, has no interest in doing so, and finds the whole platform + 99.99% of the content dumb as all fucking fuck:
The US government can eat my shit and hair
It's not about protecting the people. It's about who gets and controls the data. Data is the new oil.
Yeah the information age is turning into the profit maximized end game.
We all had access to information, then gave up our own in response. And now having specific data to find truly only the most useful and profitable people and marketing is the new gold. But honestly I think the data isn't actually as useful as oil. It's more like gold. And these companies are trying to sell shovels. Tools for scraping and using the data but eventually people must realize that it isn't enough.
Two genocides actually. The Russian and the Israeli one.
Is Russia doing a race thing? I thought it was an imperialism thing, needed access to Crimea for the black sea and needs to get that pesky foreign government out of the way to ensure that access
Ukrainians have their own culture, language, religion, and ethnicity distinct from Russia. Russia is killing the native population to replace them with Russians, they are abducting Ukrainian children to raise them as Russian, and they are destroying Ukrainian art, museums, and churches. It is a genocide.
One is doing conquest while the other is doing cleansing. We all know which of those is the most evil one
Russia has killed over 30000 civilians, they have abducted 20000 ukrainian children and assigned them to Russian families, they have destroyed Ukrainian museums, churches, and art. It's just as much of a genocide.
It's ... It's the cleansing, right? Or .... Maybe, just don't... Just don't do wars?
The Ukrainian thing is more of a cultural genocide with Putin having a plan on "integrating" all current Ukrainians into Russian society, but it checks out, because "integration" means "throwing away their own culture for the holy Mother Russia".
You forgot the Uighurs, that is still happening
🤓 "Uhrm axetually, inflation is dropping and wages are slightly rising, so people shouldn't complain because the economy is actually great. They're really just imagining things and suffering because they weren't responsible with their covid checks."
Seriously, liberals think that's all people are upset about. They don't recognize that already existing trends and enshitification of capitalist products are making things suck for people. They don't appreciate that housing inflation has been way too high for decades, and that cheaper nonessential junk doesn't make up for it. Inelastic demand that the government will not address because politicians don't understand the struggles of new homeowners and renters.
When most people can't win at the game, they don't care to uphold it.
Someone is going to see this and downvote you because they saw you use the word "liberal" negatively and immediately think you're a right-winger or something.
But yeah, if the media outlets would understand that "the economy" (rich peoples yacht money) is based on garbage metrics, maybe they wouldn't act so offended when people call them out on it
This place has become more liberal recently. I don't love smug leftists who think being a socialist automatically makes you virtuous, but it is annoying to deal with people that aren't fully awake to reality. Capitalism is the problem, and while being scant on solutions and strategies is awful, not even seeing the problems is worse.
I just don't understand how some people think rejecting capitalism is going too far. Like it's bad, everyone knows it's destroying us, it takes nothing to admit it. Feels great to be anti-capitalist.
If you don't think capitalism is an evil system, you're not paying attention.
Don't leave out healthcare inflation. It's as bad or worse than housing inflation, but it's easy to forget until you need it.
Yeah, but as of July 2022 the credit bureaus don't report medical debt. After I got a surprise $5,000 bill in the mail after my copay for an ER visit where the doctor spent 5 minutes misdiagnksing me and sending me to to wrong specialist, I was able to tell them to go to hell.
Fucking tell me about it 😭
I really don't think people even understand inflation enough to realize "inflation is dropping" just means prices are still going up but only a little at a time instead of the near doubling it was a year or 2 ago and how little people have been wage matched to the stipl increasing costs.
No, the Republicans want to buy and control it:
Former Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin says he's interested in buying TikTok
The Twitter strategy, bold, predictable.
ok, to be fair. There have been recent investments into people generally in poverty, in regards to improving their financial situation, as a means to improve their overall health, it's still in trial stages, and very new, but it IS happening, and it IS positively affecting people.
Also, "we" aren't really witnessing a genocide, i'm assuming to this is referring to war, if not, I'll take my leave.
There's like 8 recent 'genocide emergencies' declared by Genocide Watch not including Palestine and Ukraine
While interesting most are far smaller. The Manipur one has 200 deaths. Which is bad but more of a war crime than full blown Genocide.
last i checked, there is a wiki page with a list of "serial killers" and if you sort by death count, you get like 180? Last i checked, similar situation there i imagine. Some dude apparently just woke up and decided that he needed to violence. Gotta love humanity.
Should have said while approving/enabling of a genocide.
The current administration has vetoed multiple UN drafts for a conflict resolution over Gaza as well as other UN resolutions proposed. We're still sending the Israelis weapons. Neither congress nor the current administration care.
i suppose complacency is fair. Wouldn't be america if we didn't pretend shit wasn't a problem half the time.
Hey, at least they got one thing right.
“These are OUR slaves!”
So there's an app that's operated out of an authoritarian country that's spewing propaganda from a terrorist organization that's making you hate your own democratic government.
You can't understand why people might have some concerns over this if Tik Tok is your only source of information. And that only adds to the concerns over Tik Tok.
How angry are is the Tik Tok crowd over how China treats the Uighurs? It's all ok as long as you don't witness it on Tik Tok, right?
Parent company is operated out of China, actually company is operated out of Singapore, US, Europe.
You referring to Hamas? They barely have Internet access, and they certainly don't get any special treatment on the app. The people criticizing Israel are not terrorists or terrorist sympathizers, and mislabeling them as such doesn't do you any favors. And TikTok has been allegedly suppressing any videos talking about that subject.
Wrong. The only people making me hate my government is my government. I actually realized that Republicans pushed me left, but it was mostly the left that pushed me so far left that I want my guns back.
You don't understand how many people are on the app and their demographics do you?
Where do they make decisions about the algorithm that decides what you're seeing on TikTok? That's what's relevant here.
Also Huawei played similar games, but we later found out how connected it was basically just a branch of the Chinese government. If you believe the shell company shenanigans, it's probably because you've spent a lot of time on TikTok.
I'm pretty sure the billionaire leaders of Hamas living in palaces in Qatar have internet access. Did Tik Tok not tell you that there are literal billionaires that are leaders of Hamas? Loses some of the appeal when you realize it isn't some rag tag group of freedom fighters but actually a fascist movement that wants to restore the ethnic makeup of a region to how it was in old maps. Something to think about when you see people cosplaying as Hamas at the protests.
Did you hear this on TikTok?
You don't even have a cohesive concept of any kind of politics, other than hating your own government. Where did that come from? You obviously don't put a lot of thought into political issues if you swing from one party to the next and you admit the only consistency you have is a hatred of your own government. You've just proven my point about TikTok influencing you into hating your government.
Somewhere between 150 to 170 million Americans get their news from TikTok. Do you think that if there's more people getting news from a source where the relevant news stories could be decided by an authoritarian country somehow makes it less of a concern?
We know a lot of people use TikTok, and we know that ultimately authoritarians decide what is shown to people on that site. We know that people on TikTok are being fed disinformation, we know that people are being pushed towards being sympathetic towards terrorist movements. It has all of the signs of a campaign to destabilize western countries. But maybe TikTok has influenced you towards wanting to destroy your own country.
You fundamentally misunderstood several of my points and I'm assuming it was intentional.
You don't know who makes decisions on algorithms, so you're speculating without evidence.
I'm not surprised Hamas leaders are rich, they've been funded by Israel. Also, good job proving my point that you see any criticism of Israel as Hamas sympathy. That's like assuming every Democrat that criticizes Biden is a secret Republican. That's delusional and undermines your argument.
TikTok censorship has been reported outside of TikTok. Just like other social media. Why even argue on that point? That's something you should latch onto that we actually agree on.
I don't swing from one party to the next. I have moved further and further left BECAUSE of my government. You intentionally missed my point again. I have an excellent understanding of politics and that's WHY I hate the government. TikTok is separate from that entirely. I hate the Chinese government, and the Russian government, and most governments tbh. And we could spend hours discussing my politics, but that's just distracting from my very obvious point.
Never seen a straw man so fragile. You don't know many of the things you claim to know, especially my motivations. But I can guess at your pro Israel intentions
From a third party perspective I think you sound pretty much like how that user has painted you.
Thank you for the third party perspective. Maybe I should edit my original comment to be more clear about what I'm trying to say
Do you criticize the people cosplaying as Hamas in the photos of basically every Palestinian protest I see? Maybe you should tell them that Hamas is funded by the Jews.
You've gone too deep. You've fallen prey to the old antisemitic ideas that the Jews are secretly puppeteering every bad thing that happens in the world. This is a very old pattern we've seen before. Keep people constantly angry so they can't think straight. Inject conspiracy theories about an ethnic group doing evil things. Tell people they can't trust anything that disagrees with the narrative because they're secretly in league with that evil ethnic group.
Kind of on the nose that you're going with the Jews being the secret puppet masters. I mean it should be obvious by now what those conspiracy theories lead to. Look at the photos of German cities at the end of WWII. That is the end result of this kind of rhetoric. Then when you look at the images of Gaza being blasted at you non-stop, you might start to understand the pattern that you're a part of.
It's not the Jews that made Hamas what it is, that's just an insane antisemitic conspiracy theory. It's hatred towards Jews that made it what it is. October 7 happened because of hatred towards Jews. You're witnessing the destruction caused by hatred. You should ask more questions about the hatred that they're creating within you.
There was hope that the younger generation wouldn't fall for this kind of thing. But the cycle just continues on. Maybe the next generation will understand that they aren't too special to not become a part of this cycle of hatred and will be able to break it.
History does not judge those that promote antisemitism well.
God damn. You want full crazy.
Here you go
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
I criticize Israel. Not the Jewish as a whole. I'll criticize any country that commits genocide.
By the way, by arguing with me (a gay person) that makes you homophobic. Does that seem silly? It's the same argument you just spent 5 paragraphs trying to make. Get a grip
The article is saying that it was a mistake to ever negotiate with Hamas. Are you saying you agree with that? There's currently a negotiation for a ceasefire with Hamas, by negotiating with Hamas that would be "propping them up" according to this article. So I'm concluding from this you're against there being a ceasefire. Is that correct?
I don't think it is. You're not thinking about anything rationally, you're reading everything you see as "Israel is evil" without any kind of critical analysis. You have no coherent position on anything other than you hate Israel. You're dog whistling antisemitism, and you may not even be aware of it because you're just repeating whatever you see in TikTok, certain that if you emulate the righteous anger you're seeing from those you have a para-social relationships with you'll be in the right.
Going along with the group on antisemitism isn't anything invented by TikTok. It's just concentrated it and made it much more addictive.
-_-
damn you got some long arms, never seen a reach like that before.
This conversation is spiraling. I'm not going to argue with someone who misrepresents my intentions or character. Or someone who blindly defends Israel despite obvious issues with its leadership. We could go in circles forever with your increasingly conspiratorial assumptions and accusations. I'm just gonna end it here before you sprain an ankle jumping to conclusions.
Uh, this is embarrassing but it's actually operated out of Singapore. The company that actually runs TikTok is owned by a Company with it's headquarters in China.
It's embarrassing that you think the existence of shell companies is anything meaningful.
Lol no.
TikTok was founded in California. Bytedance bought it later. TikTok still runs TikTok.
Seriously, I hate TikTok, yet I still recognize that everything you've said is bullshit. I get 0 news from TikTok and still know that none of your concerns are justified. Foreign countries can just buy your data from every other social media company. It's not uniquely spyware for the CCP.
There's no evidence that China has a secret backdoor to suppress evidence of their genocide, while Israeli and Christian fascists are openly manipulating social media to hide their genocidal actions and promote hate. TikTok is evil, but not a unique evil worth fighting in particular. They're evil as a social media company, not because of their ownership.
Democrats are ridiculous for supporting this, as they rely on the youth vote more than Republicans. If right wing billionaires take over TikTok to promote fascism, Democrats have shot themselves in the foot. If the app shuts down, they've shot themselves in the foot. This political theater will probably hurt them more than help, but they genuinely believe there are enough nationalistic liberals who give a fuck about banning TikTok to outweigh young people they'll dissuade. Nationalistic liberals aren't going to change their voting behavior much over this, while young people honestly might.
Edit: missing words
I've learned long ago from many conversations with MAGAs that the request for evidence is a tactic to get someone to waste their time. If I provided you evidence it would be rejected as being from a biased media or some other excuse. The indoctrinated cannot be convinced by words on the internet because you can always find other words on the internet that say the opposite.
But maybe take a moment to consider that you're behaving in the exact same way as the MAGA crowd when the sources of their narratives are questioned. Do you really want to be like the MAGAs? Not able to question the motives of people that are shoving out endless narratives that making you constantly angry? Is that who you want to be? Someone that's made to be constantly angry and just trusting that authoritarians would never try to manipulate you?
Do you think Xi Jinping is a good guy in the same way as the MAGAs think Vldimir Putin is a good guy? Yeah they're authoritarians but they'd never ever cross the line and use their power to manipulate you... right?
Crafting strawmen and equating me with American fascists and Chinese fascists? You're hilarious. I make the mistake of assuming people are bad faith actors sometimes. That's why I try to account for nuance in my responses, allowing geniuses like you to completely gloss over my actual arguments like cartoons stepping on rakes.
People just don't want to comprehend my arguments, as they might actually need to question their opinions if they do. It's not even indoctrination per say, your brain is just protecting itself from having to challenge your beliefs or identity.
China's government is bad. They are not socialists, but national socialists interested in their own power. I've seen no evidence of TikTok being manipulated behind the scenes at the moment, while Twitter is being openly manipulated by Musk to push fascism. Facebook, Reddit, and Instagram are a hive of manipulation that the owners refuse to moderate unless it pleases advertisers, allowing unscrupulous movements of tribalism and lies to spread unimpeded. The Democrats are making a TACTICAL blunder in banning TikTok, endangering democracy in the process.
Do you understand, or is this still too much for you to grasp?
I don’t think it’s about the data as much. If you can predict and influence the civilian population of your global competition, that’s immense power from abroad. I could see a national threat. It’s not an accident that hearts and minds are underlined when attempting to project power into a region.
And they already can, probably more effectively on other platforms as well. This bill will not address the issue. They'd need to target all social media companies instead of just one. If fascists unwilling to do basic moderation acquire TikTok, the problem will only become worse.
When all social media companies oppose a bill, maybe we'll actually have something effective.
Except that America can tell American companies not to do certain things. You can’t stop china from essentially causing instability here through tiktok, they own it. You could stop them if they were using Reddit, Facebook, etc. it’s not going to happen. But to pretend that a foreign owned mass media app is anything but a way to control a population, or narrative, is sort of funny. America does it with their shit. Why would we not be more threatened by something abroad. Why would a nation allow foreign propaganda?
We won't tell companies to do anything at the moment, and yet this is somehow a priority. It is a problem, but it isn't as pressing and they aren't addressing it well.
Well the Chinese communist party isn’t a US owned company. So, it is most definitely a priority. This isn’t the first time it’s almost been banned. It is a pressing concern. Why don’t you feel that it is?
We also fined the shit out of YouTube in 2019 for collecting and selling children’s data without consent. Can’t do that with the CCP. I’m actually shocked that I’m proud of the FTC for once.
Priority in comparison to every other national security concern? No, definitely not. Not even as far as keeping American data away from adversaries.
We need to focus on regulating who all social media companies sell their data to, not just who "owns" a single company. Twitter could sell extensive user data to Russia, yet not face the same repercussions as TikTok. Google probably sells more useful data to the Chinese government than TikTok could, all while not getting punished in any way. Banning TikTok does more harm to the Chinese shareholders than the Chinese military.
You think the $170 fine against YouTube stopped them targeting kids? That's just the cost of doing business. Do performative bullshit and pay a one time tax every decade or so. That's all fines can do. Unless the fine is ongoing and harsh relative to the company's size, it doesn't move the needle much.
The current YouTube algorithm demonetizes all videos with swearing or adult themes. Advertisers pay to target kids more than ever. That's a big motivation behind making videos "advertiser friendly." It's like how blockbuster movies push for a pg13 rating; to target impressionable kids with disposable income. Advertisers know kids have more free time and less fiscal responsibility. It's less about moral values that adults hold nowadays, and more about getting money from parents through their kids.
You don't seem to understand how tech companies actually operate, or what the government could actually do to keep Americans safe. The problems are actually worse than you think. The government doesn't make much of a difference because politicians are unwilling to take meaningful action.
There are Hollywood level propaganda ads being played on multiple platforms as well as the fkn superbowl. So I'm gonna assume the terrorist propaganda you are talking about is the Israeli government.
This post is inaccurate. It fails to state that you actually work 2 jobs each at 25 hours a week so neither megacorp has to provide any benefits, and you'll be fired from one next week because despite requesting otherwise they keep scheduling overlapping shifts and you can only go to one job at a time.
Honestly the genocide part of this meme bothers me. It's not just one after all.
Waiting for ban on Australian infiltration and manipulation of the American populace.
If that's Rupert Murdoch, he had to get US citizenship to be allowed to own Fox.
Quick Google search: "Generally, there are no restrictions on foreign ownership of a company formed in the United States. The procedure for a foreign citizen to form a company in the US is the same as for a US resident."
Broadcast news is one of the exceptions:
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1985-09-04-mn-23112-story.html
The missing link is to recognize that billionaires are citizens only technically. They have no interest in the well-being of their nation (or even their planet), nor are they subject to any of its laws.
Whataboutism
No. I really do want my government to focus on governing instead of handing itself unprecedented and unconstitutional powers to force private sales.
frfr, i can't believe how many smug takes i saw about this the day it passed. left and right giddy to oppress the youth just because the dances are stupid
They just don't want you to talk about it
*funding the genocide
In fact they are not only purposely funding the genocide, they are actively ignoring majority of people against it, even surpassing the senate just to be sure they can send the money to Israel quickly
Actually since TikTok is where most of the popular support for Palestine is from and probably why after decades of this genocide it finally became well-known, they are trying to shut it down, since China won't censor it for them. Classic fascist moves from the government.
Did we forget about the Uighur’s? China isn’t even TRYING to hide that, but, yeah. Except that they ban any mention of it within their borders.
Mind you, I’m not trying to take away from what the US is and has done, but, currently, the only super power locked in a provable genocide, is china. Simple as that. The US is so fucking sideways that we’re simultaneously bringing food into Gaza while also supporting its destruction. Really nothing new there, money goes up. But, different than state sponsored genocide. Fuck, I hate that that’s a buzzword.
The very concept of a state is the problem.
State - a group of people who claim they are allowed to use violence to get their way and that nobody else is allowed to protect themselves from this violence.
(Others may define "state" to be essentially synonymous with "government". The above definition contains the only quality in common with every entity I am speaking of.)
There is no reality in which any state is not taken over by those willing to cause the harm necessary to do so.
This does not mean the best course of action is attempted immediate destruction of any state, that will cause the boot to stomp harder on us. The best course of action is minimize dependence on the economic system that state depends on. That is to say, growing some portion of your food is just about as radical as it gets.
Save me from TikTok because of what? I mean, we know the hidden reasoning, but what is the official concern?
officially: data mining and algorithm manipulation to promote propaganda
unofficially: data mining that hasn't been approved by the US government and algorithm manipulation to promote propaganda that hasn't been approved by the US government
Chy-na!
...and TikTok will still have horrible data privacy and domestic spying capabilities, it will just be owned by US Big Tech instead of Chinese Big Tech.
Glad we can keep Chinese billionaires from influencing politics for cheap, they will have to pay an American billionaire to do it like Russia does.
There's no world where they sell to preserve 10% of their users
Is the distribution significantly different on other social media platforms? Because if not, what you're insinuating might not actually be real.
The government isn't protecting us from tictok, they are protecting themselves...
Who said the government doesn't do anything for the public?
Uh 50 hr work week and $7.25/hr wage is where you lost me. Nobody is getting paid that minimum wage. That's just bad faith.
It's admittedly low, but not nobody -- 1.3% of hourly workers from this report: https://usafacts.org/articles/minimum-wage-america-how-many-people-are-earning-725-hour/
Culture war bullshit honestly
As long as it doesn't hurt corporate profits, actual change can hapoen.
Yeah that's about right. What exactly is the point of this post?