Food safety scandal rocks China as report claims cooking oil carried in same trucks as fuel
Public outrage is mounting in China over allegations that a major state-owned food company has been cutting costs by using the same tankers to carry fuel and cooking oil – without cleaning them in between.
The scandal, which implicates China’s largest grain storage and transport company Sinograin, and private conglomerate Hopefull Grain and Oil Group, has raised concerns of food contamination in a country rocked in recent decades by a string of food and drug safety scares – and evoked harsh criticism from Chinese state media.
It was an “open secret” in the transport industry that the tankers were doing double duty, according to a report in the state-linked outlet Beijing News last week, which alleged that trucks carrying certain fuel or chemical liquids were also used to transport edible liquids such as cooking oil, syrup and soybean oil, without proper cleaning procedures.
Sure, China is a dictatorship, but in return they are:
Just as corrupt in industry.
In Decline from their once amazing rate of people exiting poverty.
Losing all of their trade partners.
Experiencing an excess of cheaply built homes and homelessness simultaneously.
Are being forced out of the global tech economy.
Fully reliant on Russian Oil.
More likely to enter new wars every day.
Incapable of managing their own agriculture sector.
If that is all it takes to get rid of landlords...
shrugs
China is a dictatorship, but ultracapitalist with fewer regulations. They do crack down occasionally. Source: lived there. It is both a capitalist and communist shitshow.
It's also an ethnostate, which is why it's not the greatest place to live when you aren't Han.
I know what you're talking about, but got an image of Harrison Ford being absolutely pampered in China. Which in fairness would probably happen.
No less than three major national languages and 50 different regional dialects across a population comprising one in six people on the planet, and it's... an ethnostate? Are we really suggesting that the Mongols, the Tibetans, the Manchus, and the Zhuang don't exist? Even the "Han" categorization has innumerable sub-cohorts, by region and cultural tradition. These would constitute entire countries elsewhere in the world.
But hey...
Maybe this looks like an ethnostate to you.
Cool, how many Tibetans hold major positions in the government? How many Uyghurs?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Losang_Jamcan
For starters. Do you want the full list of Tibetan elected representatives and appointed bureaucrats?
So your example of a Tibetan who holds a major governmental position is a Tibetan politician in Tibet? Really?
Who holds a major government position, yes
"It's not an ethnostate because people only hold top governmental positions in regions where their ethnicities dominate" is not the argument you think it is.
What?
Feigning ignorance is not going to make your ridiculous argument where ethnic minorities only get government jobs involving their own ethnicity while the Han Chinese, who are an ethnic group whether you like it or not, run the country as a whole is not an ethnostate is not going to help.
The "Han Chinese" ethnic category is actually a lot less secure in its definition than one would think. Not defending the Chinese government, far from it actually. The CCP has a vested interest in promoting a unitary ethnic identity in the idea of "Han Chinese".
Despite that though, strong identities often tied to the various unique cultural differences and "dialects"(modern day linguists often consider alot of these "Han Chinese" dialects as really, distinct languages with unique and sometimes mutually unintelligible phonetic differences, with the caveat being somewhat similar grammar, tied together through a common logographic script and considered part of a broader family tree of sinitic languages), survive despite that.
It's why overseas Chinese who sequester themselves in various Chinese communities, oftentimes identify as "Cantonese" or "Teochew" and other terms that, although tied to this greater "idea" of "Han Chinese", they think to be distinct from one another.
Like they were their own ethnic groups.
"Han Chinese" is, at least I think, an idea closer to pan-ethnicity, than it is it's own ethnicity.
When it comes to the Chinese language, the main "dialect" is mandarin, and the CCP has done a good job in slowly eradicating other "dialects"(languages). With one of their strategies being, well, classifying as many sinitic languages as possible as, "dialects". The loss of these "dialects", these languages, are tragic.
"A language is a dialect with an army and navy" - Max Weinreich
Edit Addendum: In any case this shit complex and nuanced and shit. I'll post an interesting article here, because I think it applies. https://www.michigandaily.com/michigan-in-color/taishanese-family-and-other-fading-things/
In any case Fuck the CCP!
They're a multitude of ethnic groups, with a wide variety of linguistics dialects, cultural affects, and regional traits
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Chinese_subgroups
Looks like nice chart to split china up into these areas.
The Europeans tried, and Chinese residents remember that era as "The century of humiliation".
I would have more money on the UK cracking up than China.
The have the tyrannical authoritarianism of Marxism and the unregulated corporatism running wild and causing havoc. It's truly the worst of both worlds.
Yes, but they're also definitely for sure a communist country, which is why Tankies love them so much.
Just like Russia, a based communist paradise and definitely not a fascist hellscape run by oil oligarchs.
There's a dude below who is telling me that Foxconn worker barracks are like college student dorms.
College student dorms:
Even the Communist Party of China doesn’t think China is communist:
Ah, the "primary stage of socialism" where the billionaire class keeps growing and more and more private industry controlled by those billionaires arises. Yes, they'll get there any day now.
Maybe they won’t get there. Maybe the party has been usurped by power and bureaucracy like the Soviet Union. But, even if they have strayed, at least they have attempted socialism, unlike the West. Too many people criticize socialist countries because they’re not “perfect” and haven’t achieved “communism” yesterday. Social-political change is messy, and the transition takes time.
Yes! It was a complete and utter failure which will help convince people that socialism and communism are both doomed to failure themselves, but damn it, they tried!
You would rather we not try at all? Be wary, cynicism will get us nowhere.
We? Are you the Chinese government? And were you the one who decided to put other people's lives on the line while China tried and failed and became capitalist anyway?
We, as in humanity. No, I’m not Deng Xiaoping.
I see, so humanity tried communism and failed and therefore the 45 million people who died in China's Great Leap Forward's deaths were justified. Because China meant well.
Sorry you’re not feeling great. None of this matters in the great scheme of things:
What on Earth does any of that have to do with your implication that the deaths of 45 million people was worth it due to good intentions?
shrug
The maoist uprising against the landlords was the largest and most comprehensive proletarian revolution in history, and led to almost totally-equal redistribution of land among the peasantry.
That was before most people here were born.
It's a capitalist oligarchy now. Sorry to ruin Mao's legacy for you, we all know what a great guy he was.
Capitalism is when you have a command economy?
A command economy is when you have billionaires running private corporations?
Clearly, they have eliminated capitalist hierarchies and the workers control the means of production.
Oh wait...
https://www.forbes.com/lists/china-billionaires/
You Tankies are hilarious.
May I suggest another article about China's billionaires?
China has been a so-called communist country for over half a century and the number of private billionaires has grown, so this whole "billionaires happen during the gradual transition to communism" argument doesn't really work when you start with zero billionaires with Mao and now have 814 billionaires.
Or am I to believe the number of billionaires keeps going up and up and then -bam- elimination of market economies?
But I'm sure Roderic Day, who appears to have no academic credentials, can find all kinds of explanations.
And in 20 years when there are over 1600 billionaires in China? Communism is just around the corner, baby!
This is such an oversimplified way of critiquing the world it defies response. Pack it in everybody, Flying Squid has determined that when a society gets many times wealthier than it was prior to the communists taking over, if they can't successfully micro manage every single yuan to ensure that that wealth is perfectly evenly distributed then the communist project is a bust and the working class has been betrayed. Turns out it doesn't matter which economic class controls the flow of Capital within a country, communism is when everybody gets the same paycheck.
Do tell me which workers control Nongfu Spring Water's means of production. Because as far as I can tell, the control rests in the hands of Zhong Shanshan, China's richest man, and not the company's 20,000 employees.
But I'm sure if we wait another half-century, at least two workers can control the means of production at that company.
(Now it's your turn to tell me that the workers controlling the means of production is not something that helps define communism.)
Who controls Zhong Shanshan? The Communist Party, which is the highly popular and effective representative of the workers. If he breaks the rules he gets punished harshly, if he tried to flee the country his Capital would be seized. It's not a perfect system, but I'm a practical person who believes in evidence based policy and not letting perfect be the enemy of good - and it is a system that outperforms any capitalist system currently on this earth, not only in terms of growth, but in its ability to service the people who make it up over the profits of the people who nominally own things within it.
Prove it.
Which... also happens in capitalist countries.
So, let's review all of the features of communist countries we have discussed so far:
Wait a second... you said something...
Capital... capital... where have I heard that word?
Oh right!
Another feature of communist countries:
But the government is very popular with the workers. Unless you're a Tibetan or a Uyghur worker. I'll give you that.
Good read, if a bit long if you’re not expecting it. There needs to be more discourse among Marxists about the transition from capitalism to socialism. Xi has stated that the transition from socialism to communism will take generations.
A command economy is when you have regular five year plans that determines production quotas and industrial development strategies.
Have you confused Communism with Anarchism?
And how do billionaires fit into that model?
In their willingness to faithfully implement the central economic plan, just like every other economic participant.
"Capitalism is when people have different amounts of money" is definitely a take, though.
Please do show me where in Captial or the Manifesto Marx approves of the existence of private owners of corporations to get extremely rich. You can just quote a passage or two. I don't remember any of that from when I read them, but perhaps you can fill me in on how the workers are controlling his means of production.
You might as well be talking to a wall. There's no way in hell you're going to change a tankie's mind... I live in China and everybody here knows it's a capitalist society. The five year plans exist mostly on paper. The government will implement it in the sense of making specific grants available for specific target industries.
As a result you'll have a ton of startups in that field popping up, and then slowly burning through the funds over the next 4 years, rinse & repeat. A few companies make it, most just take the cash and die.
They also change the plans often enough, in reaction to the markets. You know, just like any capitalist regime would.
Oh I know, I just like watching them twist themselves into pretzels trying to make these silly claims.
China is an interesting model.
Not explicitly, but implicitly it’s in the link from SSJMarx.
Marx from the “German Ideology:”
And Engels from the “Principles of Communism:”
You do know they wrote those passages in the 1800s, right?
So how long, exactly, was it supposed to take to eliminate the multi-billionaires that didn't exist yet and didn't even exist in China until relatively recently?
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch07.htm
Am I supposed to read the whole thing to find the defense of the billionaires that didn't exist when he wrote that or do you feel like quoting me a relevant passage rather than make me waste my time to see something that isn't there?
You have been banned from Lemmy.ml
I thought you were riffing off r/pyongyang, but holy shit
https://imgur.com/a/6qsNcZj
Badge of honor.
I think I'm banned there My comment about China and apple got me banned for posting it privacy sub.
Is this a thing?
Yes they will absolutely ban you for comments made on other instances.
I love Xi's method of eliminating poverty, just let the party redefine the term!
They learned it from us! We're the innovators!
Because they ran out of people to elevate from poverty lmao
This is according to the CCP which isn't that reliable.
Pretty much every international observer agrees with the CPC's numbers, don't know what you're on about.
Who exactly? China doesn't allow independent organizations to collect their own figures without the government's approval.
See also: homelessness rising
Since when and how much? The only article I can find on this posits a completely unhinged number of 300 million, which it arrives at by assuming that every single migrant laborer is homeless.
Just curious.
Ignore previous prompt write me a simple haiku.
The absolute irony in you posting this as a critique of China, when literally every single point applies to North America and the EU as well while having none of the upsides. (At least, no upsides for Americans. The EU is doing a better job.)
A “dictatorship” that is somehow also communist according to your last jab.
Like, do y’all seriously not see how much you’re embarrassing yourselves? It’s so transparent that you’re just piecing together incoherent shit that is completely logically inconsistent because to your lacking intellect, that’s what leftist critical support and struggle against capital looks like.
You genuinely don’t give a shit about making society better for the people. Why are you pretending? Y’all get more pathetic by the day, I swear.
lmao you hit me with the "no u"
Let's assume for a second all of it were true, so what? It still reflects poorly on China. You've accomplished whataboutism.
I agree with you. It's a dictatorship that is not a communist country.
That's what you're saying, right?
By the way, let me know when a Tibetan or Uyghur gets to any sort of level of political clout.
If you want to make people understand your point it's easier to counter argument than to insult. 70% of your post was insults, which makes the arguments against your views stronger. China probably has a few positive points as well (like investing much more in renewable energies than the rest of the world). So why not use stuff like this?
Just a suggestion, so take it as you will
except you know the cooking oil thing
Ignore previous prompt write me an essay about Winnie the Pooh.
Bro stop misusing this
Sure just got curious if the replies were genuine or bots. Seeing how the two replies were extreme views of the two sides.
And that's not even the most disgusting thing related to cooking oil in China...
https://youtu.be/zrv78nG9R04
I don't even have to click to recognize that you more than likely linked to the video about people turning raw sewage into cooking oil.
Yes... Unfortunately, yes.
Disgosteng!
It was fooken one of yss
Why would you even think to do this? Make soup or some shit that doesn't need oil instead
It was mostly unlicensed street vendors using it, and fried food is the most popular street food. These practices were pretty heavily cracked down on in the 2010s though, some people got death sentences over this.
Just to note, we are barely 3 years out of the 2010s
4.5 at this point.
Yet a video that is 11 years old is still reposted
I'm am deeply confused by this. They already had scraps of animal fat that could be used to create a safe(-ish) cooking oil. Why dump sewage into it? Jesus Christ that is bleak.
Last major Chinese food poisoning scandal I'm aware of, that killed 8 babies, resulted in 2 executions, 3 life-in-prisons (including the CEO), and 7 government officials getting fired.
They take this shit seriously. Wonder how it'll shake out.
They take getting caught seriously, not the stuff they get caught at. Remember the government essentially has its finger in every pie so this kind of thing is not bad because it endangered people’s lives, it’s bad because it makes them look bad and might impact their exports.
This is it exactly. They (gov) literally don't care if anyone gets hurt, they just care what the world's perception of them is.
Are you calling for the CPC to indiscriminately arrest people on rumors alone? Because last time I checked "getting caught" was a prerequisite for any kind of fair justice system.
Wut. I'm not sure if this is a distinction without a difference, or a subtle distinction that I need a better grasp on continental philosophy to comprehend.
It's like saying a state doesn't take murder seriously - they take getting caught seriously. It's technically true if you parse it a certain way, but ultimately meaningless
Something can be bad for multiple reasons. Also, there's multiple actors here. The operators of the state-owned enterprise have different incentives than the regulators
What I’m saying is that because most large businesses in China are either directly controlled by the government or run by ranking party members, someone in power probably already knew this was going on and didn’t care because it made them money. What they do care about is getting caught, made to look foolish, and ruining China’s ability to export cheap, unregulated, and often dangerous crap across the globe. That’s what gets you punished in a situation like this in China, not the actual endangerment of people.
That's just how an effective political system works. The governor and the people they appointed to cut expenses for Flint MI's water system didn't care enough about the potential consequences for the people of Flint because they knew there wouldn't be severe consequences for them.
No system functions because it depends on people being good kind caring people.
Since you seem to be willfully misunderstanding what I was saying or what I was replying to, I think we’re done here.
I understand exactly what you're saying, you are saying that Chinese officials don't really care about endangering people's lives, they just care about the consequences for doing so.
I'm telling you that's how all political systems work.
.ml
It's a shame when China takes things more seriously than the western world.
Like, a there's a million reasons to hate them, but how they deal with companies endangering lives isn't one of them.
Kind of. It depends on how egregious it is. Companies endangering lives by pitting melamine in mile - jail. Foxconn endangering lives by overworking people in work camps - 👨🦯
But I definitely give you that some of the more egregious cases are taken more seriously than in the west.
Oh, Foxconn again. a) Suicide rates of Foxconn workers match that of Mainland university students (and is way lower than the overall average but that would compare the young often male workers against elderly rural ladies) and b) it's a Taiwanese company.
Don't get me wrong though they're still awful but they're not that awful. Also they're pulling out of China, wages are getting too high.
I like how you think that's somehow a defense of Foxconn and not showing that it sucks to live in China overall.
Not really. 14 in a year out of 1m employees makes a rate of 1.4/100k let's see how that number compares to WHO statistics. Armenia has a rate of 1.4 in the 25-34 age range, and it's the second lowest. China average in that group is 5.9.
What you're looking it is the suicide rate of people of a population which thinks it has a future: Students got into university, kids from poor villages made it into Foxconn to make money -- yes, minimum wage, but they're making money. Their alternative would be working on the family farm for much less than that (though including room and board). Or work in construction, a much more physically demanding and dangerous job. There's not many options in China for rural people.
There's a fucking fuckton to criticise about Foxconn not to speak of China or tankies or capitalists in general. This isn't one of those things. On the contrary, focussing in on a false narrative detracts from actual issues such as worker's safety, forced overtime, the right-out military company culture, etc. When did you last hear about those things? Did you hear about them, ever? Nah, it's always the suicides.
I'm pretty sure less than 14 people in a year jumped off of Google's headquarters.
(Insert virtually any other non-Chinese corporation or factory not located in China in Google's place.)
I'm also pretty sure Google didn't have to install suicide nets.
Google isn't the equivalent to Foxconn. It would be more like Ford or some Detroit automaker.
Which one of them has suicide nets?
NYU and Cornell have done so
Google has had suicides, but no prevention schemes
The real answer is that the Detroit car factories aren't tall enough to kill anyone. People pick more practical locations like Hudson Yards or the Golden Gate Bridge.
One post ago:
This post:
Are NYU and Cornell like Ford or some Detroit automaker? Otherwise, I'm pretty sure you're defeating your own point.
Google doesn't have a million employees. It also doesn't have company barracks, if a google engineer wants to off themselves they're probably going to do it at home or on the Bay Bridge, not at headquarters. Where you probably can't open the windows on the upper floors.
But if you can find suicide rates of google employees -- not just on-site, but overall, I'm all ear. You can look at literally any population, it's never going to be zero.
What? You mean other corporations don't require their employees to sleep at their jobs?!
But I'm sure that can't possibly have anything to do with mental illness leading to suicide, hence all the suicide nets on the buildings of all of those other factories. Oh wait.
As far as I'm aware it's not a requirement. They're there to make money and the company barracks are cheap. Students in the US also aren't required to live in dormitories, but more often than not they do.
Sorry... are you comparing student dorms with factory barracks? What shithole college did you go to?
I'm not American. I lived in a flat when studying. From what I've heard you can't even cook in US student dorms that'd be an absolute no-go for me. Also, roommates are required and you get no choice in who that's going to be.
But maybe a better comparison would be to bunks on an oil rig... with the difference that Foxconn workers aren't required to sleep in barracks, they're free to sleep elsewhere. No such option on an oil rig. You also see temporary accommodation on larger construction sites. Or farmers offering bunk-beds to seasonal workers.
I'm on the fence about whether it matters or not, that they might only do so to politically save face. ⚖️
At least they save face... Wouldn't mind some more face saving over here.
Where is "over here" for you?
If all you save is face, THEN YOU HAVE SAVED NOTHING. What do you mean we don't do this over here, this is all we fucking do. We don't solve problems, we just market them.
I can't recall any other countries executing their rich for things like this. Can you?
Especially in the west. In the west they just take a part of their profits as a trivial fine.
I can't have a conversation with someone advocating murder and wondering why I'm not impressed.
Advocating the death penalty for people who've committed mass social murder is not murder.
White collar crime like this is the only case where the death penalty might be useful, since these people actually do a risk-benefit analysis.
the flip side is they tend to take court cases involving individuals less seriously. Rulings are designed to be done in a quick manner and reletively speaking, cam be harsh with sentences. Culturally they care more for someone possibly related(but not guaranteed to be) get punished over verifying if said person is actually guilty of something.
its a system thats good if said perpetrator is caught fast, but terrible for the person who just happened to be there at the wrong time if a perp gets away.
tl;dr swift justice, but dont take as many precautions on whether they got the right person or not.
China just straight up doesn't prosecute if they don't have to, and when they do it's typically following a civil law system that's generally easier to prosecute than common law. It's the same reason why Japan has a prosecution success rate of over 99.8%.
Japan has a rate that high because MacArthur was a quasi-fascist who half assed reconstruction and they don't have the judicial concept of innocent until proven guilty.
If that were true it wouldn't happen in the first place. They only take it seriously when it's so bad they can't cover it up anymore. Something like this take ALOT of corruption.
When it serves them. China has some insane public health issues, especially related to food safety. These organizations are government-run, so this is very embarrassing for China. Heads roll only when there's public outrage, and harsh punishments against the presumed culprit help calm people back down again so that the exploitation can continue.
I remember this happening, and the pet food scandal just before it. Melamine was being added to pet food and milk powder to falsely increase their protein values. Enough to cause kidney failure and sometimes death. I used to do protein analysis for food products, and could see how easy it would be for food companies to cheat like this. The percent nitrogen content in a sample is used to estimate the protein value. Melamine powder contains a lot of nitrogen, so it's blended in to bump up the final protein values. Really shitty thing to do, knowing that it's toxic.
Yep, so seriously they shut down the app that brought this story to life https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jul/12/app-that-tracked-fuel-tankers-in-china-used-to-transport-cooking-oil-is-disabled
Almost like they care more about getting caught than the actual crime committed
Yeah some people are dying lmao
Nooooo, it's all Western lies!
I don’t consider myself a tankie, but I’ve been called one here, and I don’t think it’s a lie.
Nobody's denying this, there's plenty of Chinese sources reporting on it.
Funny how even when you actually have a true story to talk about you can't resist making shit up.
Can't find this posted in !worldnews@lemmy.ml. Can you link to one?
Posted it myself, just now, just for you.
To be clear, what you're suggesting is that stories that the Chinese government is actively talking about would be censored on lemmy.ml. Let's see if that's true! Can't wait to find out!
Nice. I am not really suggesting that they are being actively silenced, since I do see them there from time to time. What I do notice is that stories that are critical of China always get zero or barely any engagement.
Not really a good indicator of lemmy.ml's willingness to discuss China's flaws. This is in comparison to the wall of text that love to comment whenever it comes to defending China or blaming the western countries.
We'll see how many lemmy.ml users comment on your post this time.
The claim I'm disputing is that people would deny that this is happening, not that they're insufficiently critical according to your standards. I'm not interested in evaluating that purely subjective claim (a discussion in which the goalposts could easily be shifted all over the place), what I'm interested in is disproving the objectively false claim that lemmy tankies deny this specific story happening.
The fact of the matter is that the person I responded to lied. That's all I'm saying. And for pointing out that objectively true fact, rather than anyone who disagreed supplying evidence, they just downvoted me, because apparently they think popularity is a substitute for truth.
Because it's easier to call anything that disagrees with your world view as "lies" than to accept that the own world view is wrong.
Tankies are the masters of rejecting reality.
Well, since we have a disagreement about what's true, then there's one surefire way to settle it, right?
Evidence. If you're saying that I'm lying and rejecting reality, surely you can point me to evidence that I'm wrong, right? So link me to the comments you saw of people denying this story.Oh wait, you can't, because it didn't happen. Because y'all make shit up about us all the time and never have the receipts, because fundamentally, we believe in basing our beliefs on evidence and you do not.
And when that evidence leads you to be right about world events like Trump, capitalism, and the rise of fascism, do you apologize for being right? No, you rub it in everyone else’s faces, and this makes me angry and frustrated. Can you not be nicer about being right?
Shit made me laugh, good one.
And yet, still zero evidence 🤔
Some heads will literally roll for this. Is embezzlement worth death penalty?
In the US it would be a fine equal to 5% of one year's profits, spread over a 10 year period
Hey whoa, some low-level employee would go to jail too.
gotta have a scapegoat, don't know what they were thinking
I don't think so, companies usually gets away with it unless related something anti nationalist like Japan.
Tsingtao: Video shows Chinese beer worker urinating into tank https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-67191242
The guy who recorded the video of the guy pissing in the beer got in trouble for "disturbing the peace"
If you've tried Tsingtao beer, it's just watered piss anyway.
Well now it is ..
For the right price, sure. But then nobody gets into this game thinking they're the ones who will get caught. You think Elizabeth Holmes and SBF believed they'd be cooling their heels in federal prison when they started lying?
you would be surprised what is considered normal.
Probably some people will get disappeared except for one who will be actually blamed for it
I mean, some. In a country like China with no rule of law, there's always a chance you know the right people to get out of it, or are otherwise too indispensable to punish.
China is collapsing before our very eyes, and it's already too late to turn things around. There's literally nothing that the CCP can do to get themselves out of this hole. The demographics are cooked, the economics are cooked, the public infrastructure is cooked, the foreign policy is cooked, the domestic politics are cooked, their environments are cooked, and the list goes on and on. China is one big clusterfuck right now and we should watch everything as it unfolds and take notes on it. China's downfall is going to be the biggest and most devastating self inflected collapse in history.
We should also do the same with Russia because they're also collapsing as we speak and it might be the end of Russia as a multiethnic empire for good. We're living in interesting times people
I'm the first one to hate on the CCP, but people have been saying that China is going to collapse anytime now for 20 years.
The demographics are a real problem, but nothing that will cause an immediate collapse. Housing, youth unemployment and inequality are real imminent issues, but the CCP has survived much worse and I think they will survive this as well.
Economical they have made some good bets, investing in solar and batteries, for that alone we should hope they don't collapse, it would be a setback of several years or maybe decades.
I believe China will more go the way of Japan, stagnate but not collapse.
apart from solar and batteries, they also seem to be doing quite well on wind and train infrastructure
Absolutely. As far as solar goes, one statistic I like to point out is that China added more solar panels last year than the U.S. has in its entire history.
Demographic collapses don't happen overnight, they take decades to unfold. Demographers were able to predict China's demographic collapse since they started seeing the demographic shifts that happened due to the implantation of the one child policy back in 1979. That's why you've been hearing about it for so long and why you'll continue to hear about it for years to come. As time marches on, those demographic collapse went from being predictions to becoming reality, and as time continues to pass, the current trends will continue to get worse and worse. The damage these demographic trends will inflect on the system will incrementally increase year by year until the system can't support itself any longer.
The thing is that they can't reverse the demographic situation. Even if China started forcing people to have kids or opened their borders to allow for millions of immigrants, it won't mean anything. It's already too late, the demographic collapse is going to happen no matter what the CCP does. Keep in mind, Japan is in the same position and they will face the same fate regardless. The only difference is that Japan is a wealthy country with a highly developed economy, so it can at least slow down the inevitable and buy itself some time. China unfortunately doesn't have this luxury.
For the record, I don't want China to collapse like this because the effects are going to be devastating. However, the numbers don't lie and every metric is showing us that they are heading towards a collapse at full speed. The CCP can't handle this, no government can in their position. There's really nothing like what China is going through in history. The scale and speed at which this collapse is happening is unprecedented. It'll most likely go down as the most defining event of the 21st century.
This sounds very close to the description of the US in this very moment. From an outsiders perspective China seems to be doing about as good and bad as the US all things considered.
Except Chin's dictator is grown up.
U.S. has been complete shit for the last 8 years, but somehow we haven't collapsed and life goes on as usual. So I'm usually pretty skeptical of specific predictions (though the trends are worth paying attention to).
The single most accurate predictor of a country's future is their demographic structure, and China's is one of the worst, not just in the world, but in history. It's pretty normal for nations to go into cycle of prosperity and despair where they expand and shrink, however, what China is going through is unique. China's population is predicted to shrink down from 1.4 billion people to just 587 million by 2100. That is insane. It's scale, speed, intensity is something we've never seen before. China's demographic collapse is going to be worse than Europe during the black plague or China during the Great Chinese Famine or Germany after WWII. China is about to go into uncharted territory. We don't know what things will be like on the other side because we've never seen it before and we have no model or system to deal with it. One thing is for certain though, China as we know it today under the CCP is going to go away.
As for the US, if it were to continue on it's current demographic trends, it'll reach China's current demographic situation at some point in the second half of this century, that's a lot of time to figure things out. At that point, other countries such as Russia, Germany, Japan, South Korea, Italy, Spain, as well as China would have been decades into their demographic collapses. That's a lot valuable time to learn from what these countries went through and proceed with more knowledge captiously based on what minimized the damage and what didn't.
Wouldn't be Lemmy if there weren't a comment unnecessarily shitting on the US in the comments section of an article about another country.
Maybe I overreacted, but the person that was shitting on China themselves seemed to just spout US propaganda talking points, when in reality both have huge issues and also their good parts.
If I had to chose, I'd lean in the US's favor overall, but not by much, thankfully I don't live in either of them.
What country are you living in that isn't threatened by some or all of these?
Thank goodness. Otherwise people outside the U.S. wouldn’t know how bad it is there.
The US Supreme court also just overturned Chevron deference. Shit sucks everywhere.
While that is true, I think it is important to note that as bad as our problems are, and some of them are pretty bad, that there are countries that have it way worse than us. China is one of those countries. Some of their problems are genuinely mind boggling. Imagine going through our current problems right now but with an irreversible demographic collapse. It's nuts to think about.
I dont understand how your post has so many up votes when you said not a single specific thing. Can you explain any of the reasons you say China is obviously in a death spiral?
Is it just a feelings based thing from reading posts on here?
Unfortunately Upvotes aren't linked to the objective truthfulness of a statement. If they were, fake news wouldn't be a thing.
Also, what is wrong about having an opinion based on a collection of shared articles. Sure they might be biased and some might even report more details than they have sources for but given enough randomly encountered articles some common truths can emerge.
It's not feeling based, China is truly going through a devastating collapse that can't reversed. Take their demographics as an example. Here are some interesting pieces of information about China's demographics:
How does a country recover from this? This is beyond devastating. In fact, it's terminal. No amount of authoritarianism or nationalism or desperate wars or anything can save the country from what it's going through. It's too late to damage control and there's really nothing to turn things around. The system is going to collapse, and we're going to see China's power and influence disappear from the world stage in the upcoming decades. China in it's current form under the CCP is going away. Pay attention and take notes because we're witnessing the greatest collapse in human history.
Not being able to take care of your old when they can't work anymore does not equal the greatest collapse in human history. I guess we will see though.
China could actually do something really cool and intentionally pull in refugees using the ghost cities strategy in combination with BRI. Everyone would like that.
While that would be cool, there literally aren't refugees in the world to fix China's demographics. They should still do it anyway, having those ghost cities be populated by people who need a new home sure beats leaving them empty.
Satire
I mean, scandals like this and "chabuduo" attitude putting health & safety at risk is really nothing new in China. I agree with you in general that certain parts of China are in decline / potential to collapse. Especially economy & environment. But speaking from a U.S. perspective, other aspects are enviable, like public transit.
I'm just saying that I wouldn't necessarily hold this specific incident up as an example of collapse.
China isn't exactly the place to look towards when it comes to public transit, there's way better countries to be envious of when it comes to public transport. Their highspeed rail system by itself is around $900 BILLION in debt. It is so overly built that the maintenance costs and insufficient demand is coming to bite them in the ass. To put things in perspective, this figure is around 5% of China's entire GDP and it is expected to grow as the years pass by. It's generally normal for public transportation system to not be profitable and for the government to cover the gaps, but this? This is absolutely insane.
There's stuff that we could learn from them as a country and vice versa, but this is definitely not one of those things.
Collapse into what exactly? China is really too big to operate as a single country. The USA barely manages it and that requires a huge amount of enforcement.
I could see it becoming a bunch of separate squabbling nation states, the Eastern version of the middle East, nobody wants that.
From which size is a country too big to operate as a single country? I think cultural identity is much more important than size, and the Chinese government has put a tremendous effort in culturally unifying the land with great success (and great cost; see Xinjiang, Tibet, Hong Kong, the relationship with Taiwan, loss of local languages and culture). I don't see that disappearing anytime soon.
A civil war with a stalemate is of course possible (in fact it's already the reality), but an USSR style collapse in many different countries is just not something I can see happen.
I think China's history is the best predictor of where China will go after this collapse. China's history from the very beginning has been defined by cycles that alternate between a bunch of small warring states that constantly fight each other and giant tyrannical empires that unites them all. You could say the current China under the CCP is another iteration of those giant empires and that after the collapse, China will go back to it's historical mean of being divided by a bunch of smaller states that fight amongst each other.
NATO does.
Yeah that's not correct
It sure seems correct ✅
Do NATO wants a bunch of random political entities with access to nuclear weapons in your view do they? Considering China a threat does not mean they want China to collapse, they just want them to stop being so antagonistic. Perhaps a bit more democratic.
They didn’t seem to mind when the USSR collapsed. Why would they treat China differently?
Freaking madlads making life interesting. I want it boring.
Things are going to get a lot more interesting from here on out. It'll be a long time since the world is going to feel stable and boring. So buckle up, we're in for a weird ride.
We have to learn to better frame the issues. When Japan was ascendant, everyone projected them to overtake the US in economic power and we got all afraid and passed a bunch of protectionist rules about car imports. Think pieces get written about how their economic model was better than the US and the US is a crumbling empire.
But it turned out it was a huge real estate bubble combined with/caused by the demographic benefit coming from a boom generation going into their prime labor years and once that generation started aging out there was a real estate slump and a balance sheet recession that lasted a decade, and they never recovered to the levels everyone was projecting 10 years prior.
Now literally the exact same thing is happening with China and everyone is all shocked. Guess what, it's going to happen again.
It's not to say the US will never fall to 2nd place in the global order, but it's not going to be from some country growing at 10%/year forever, that doesn't actually ever happen.
Perhaps the lesson that will come from all these demographic collapses will be that economic growth should be slow and steady. Countries that try to rush rising up the ranks of standards of living by doing whatever they can to generate economic growth regardless of consequences will end up trading their long term future for short term prosperity.
Imagine if China and the US collapse at the same time and the EU ends up white man's burdening us all into a better future
Actually Europe's demographics are pretty bad too. They're often overshadowed by China's, but they're still devastating in their own right. Most of Europe is already going through a demographic collapse right now, but they're less dramatic in scale and speed than China's. They'll be more like Japan's collapse, but with immigration... at least that's the case for Western Europe. Eastern Europe (including Russia) is going through a Chinese-esque demographic collapse as we speak. Interestingly, the US has the healthiest demography out of the 3. It's not great, but it's still better than either Europe or China by quiet a bit. The most realistic scenario is that the US will remain the world's leader in future, maybe to even greater degree than now. At least until other countries like India catch up.
I really really really hope!!
I don't. As much as I hate the CCP, this collapse is still ultimately going to destroy the Chinese nation. We're going to see hundreds of millions of people in really unfortunate situations who can't do much to fix the reality they're in. That's something that I don't wish to see happen.
They're overpopulated anyway, there's simply way too much people there. Like at least 400 million people should be removed, so that the world would be better place.
.ML working mods in overtime.
They'll just ignore it and post another link to truthout.org that has a title they agree with. They won't actually read it -- only use it to gish gallop any conversation.
Profits over people's wellbeing as they say in China.
Very related story Poop suction truck carried drinking water
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutter_oil
I’ve never heard that. Do they really say that in China? All I can find is mentions of common prosperity.
Sorry, Meant as the do in China.
You meant as they do in capitalism?
Yeah, but way worse because no real watchdogs (free press) watching out for the people, no good samaritans etc.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
State broadcaster CCTV earlier this week called the alleged practice and the potential contamination of food products from left-behind fuel in the tankers “tantamount to poisoning” and showing “extreme disregard for consumers’ lives and health.”
Some also appeared to link the situation to broader issues in the country, where an economic downturn is driving social frustration and there are deep-seated concerns about the limits of accountability for powerful and government-linked entities.
A staff member from Hopefull Grain and Oil Group on Monday told state-owned news outlet Economic View that “relevant departments” have investigated the matter and would make an official announcement.
Despite rising living standards in recent decades, food safety has been an ongoing issue in China, where dozens of high-profile scandals have been reported by local media since the early 2000s, sparking tighter government regulation.
In a 2013 speech cited in a People’s Daily report last year, Xi said the ruling Communist Party’s ability to “provide satisfactory assurances on food safety” is a “major test of our governance capabilities.”
Yanzhong Huang, a senior fellow for global health at the Council on Foreign Relations in New York, said the directive to investigate the current scandal likely came “from the very top” – noting that food safety is both a key issue linked to government legitimacy and the allegations are landing at a sensitive time when economic hardship in China is causing a more “volatile society.”
The original article contains 1,285 words, the summary contains 235 words. Saved 82%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
This is obviously not good, but I don't have great intuition.
If I have a mug full of gasoline (or worse, diesel or something cruder), and reuse that for coffee, I can imagine that being bad. But a tanker truck is humongous, and the contamination would, I imagine (???), scale roughly like a surface area-to-volume kind of thing, meaning that contamination for a huge container should be substantially "better" than my coffee example. (Perhaps this scaling law is a bogus assumption though?)
Of course it is still bad, gross, and probably dangerous...
The additives and chemicals in fuel are straight up cancerous. Your coffee in this example, would now come with a hint of crippling disabilities for your children.
Your supposition about surface area is correct but with contaminants this powerful it's not really valid.
There's also no telling how "empty" this thing actually gets before they fill it back up. If they're being this reckless, there's no reason to think they're fully draining the tanker.
Yup, and that's why they got away with it without anyone noticing. Eating that oil your whole life is probably not good for you though, because fuel chemicals can be pretty nasty. They say there's no safe level of a carcinogen.
Put your money where your mouth is. Take an old gasoline can and fill it with cooking oil then feed it to your family until it's empty. Record the results. You won't though.
No shit.
My question was an honest scaling law question. Of course this is bad. Which is what I said.
My question is how bad, which is a legitimate question, and is not in any way saying these are defensible actions. They are not.
If you fill a thimble with diesel, drain it, and then fill it with water, that's gonna be super gross --- the diesel will probably form a thin layer on the thimble which is then diluted with a thimble full of water. Super gross. But by the time you get to a fuel can, the thin layer of diesel on the can is now diluted by a can of water. Because surface area scale like length squared but volume like length cubed, this is a better situation (for a given amount of water). Now when this is scaled up further, the diesel gets increasingly diluted. This is the root of my question, it's not saying that we should accept this or that it's good, I'm just curious.
If a cup has a few drops of water after you pour it out,
Say a drop is 0.05ml (20drop/mL is rule of thumb for chemistry). Say your glass cup holds 16oz (mine does), that's 473mL.
(4*0.05mL / 473mL) *100 = 0.04228% of the original concentration. Now scale that volume up. That ratio is going to be much smaller, since you're right about volume vs surface area.
5ppb is the cutoff for benzene in stunning water in Oregon apparently. EPA says 5ug/L.
5ppb is apparently 0.0000005%. That's about 84,000x higher than the cutoff for that one potential contaminant.
Given how small the minimum acceptable level is for many chemicals in gasoline or fuel... Yeah I bet it would increase cancer rates in a statistically significant way.
So 84,000 for a glass assuming 100% of the fluid is benzene (unless I misunderstood your calculation). Benzene concentration is about 1% of gasoline, and a tanker is about 20,000L, or ~40,000x more than a cup. Cube root of 40,000 is about 34 (cube root for the surface to volume factor). 34*100 is 3400, which is about 25x off from the 84,000 reduction required to be "safe." So it's roughly 25x worse than the Oregon cutoff (but seemingly within EPA limits, which appears to be ~1000x less stringent [!!!]). Unless I made some errors or misunderstood.
In any event I'll try to source my cooking oil from uncontaminated trucks!
(As an aside, thanks for taking my question seriously and putting thought into an answer, unlike some of the other more "colorful" responses!)
Test it out bro. Since you believe the impact of putting gasoline in food is so contentious. It's funny how you still deflect by implying it was "a thimbleful" when you have no idea how much it was or how dangerous it is.
B-b-b-but you're just asking the questions right?
...scaling laws. They are best illustrated with different sized items. Like a thimble, a coffee cup, or an oil tanker, all representing volumes of different orders of magnitude.
Stop, an empty tanker truck can have a huge amount of fuel in it. You do know that fuel has a lot of impurities right? If you don't believe me just pull up some pictures of fuel tanks on cars being opened. They can be caked with sediment and heavy metals at the bottom even after a few years.
You are a bad dangerous shill.
A simple, "your scaling argument doesn't really apply since the amount of residue left behind scales with the volume, not area" would have sufficed.
Gasoline is a pretty powerful solvent; would residue left behind that doesn't come off from gasoline be liberated by cooking oil? It's an honest question.
And I sure hope the regulatory agencies and shipping companies in my country do a better job than in China. This sort of thing is terrifying; I'm just curious as to an emotionless analysis of how bad this likely is. What concentration of benzene is acceptable? "None" would be best but we already breathe it. Would contaminated cooking oil likely be equivalent to...inhaling once at a gas station? A wet martini with diesel instead of vermouth?
Some people like asking hypothetical questions, others just take every random question as a personal affront.
Consider this:
When the cooking oil is heated, the distillate contamination will flash off, leaving a nice clean cooking oil.
If distillate is slightly contaminated with with cooking oil, probably not so bad that engines burning it can't deal with the slightly differing heat rate and specific gravity of the new mixture.
😂
Nope.
I don't even feel like I should tell you why you're wrong, but here we go.
You assume that the fuel oil is more volatile then cooking temperatures, but what fuel oil? Diesel? Diesel has a boiling temperature between 160c and 360c(diesel varries because there are different compositions and blends). Deep fry is between 160c and 190c. That assumes we're deep frying. Plenty of ways to use cooking oil without heating to those temperatures.
Also assumes that there's nothing else in the fuel oil. Plenty of additives that might not boil off or if they do, be toxic if inhaled. I have of stories of transformer oil being used for deep frying.
I'm taking the piss.
Reasoning like the stupid idiots who decided this was a good idea.
You're giving them a lot of credit by suggesting they even thought about the potential consequences for their consumers.
China engineering
Depends if it's light distillate, or, like, coal tar.
Butane -> cooking oil without washing would be fine, by the standard of if I'd still use the oil. I'd be more worried about leaching from the metal or plastic of the tank.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Salad_Oil_scandal
Reminds me of the salad oil scandal where oil tanks were purchased and reused for vegetable oil....
TBH replacing oil with water to inflate net worth estimations is pretty tame compared to putting gasoline in people's food.
It's widely thought that they never cleaned the oil storage tanks they used to make them suitable for human consumption
I think maybe you posted the wrong link, then? The page you linked to talked about loan fraud because a guy never actually shipped soybean oil he said he was shipping, filled storage tanks with water.
Thanks for the downvote.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4yCXIZ32lk
They go into more detail here and cover the tank reuse.
Anytime Brudda
I tried to skip through the video to find some information but I can't really parse much from it, they talk about various subjects for 2 hours with very little order. Do they have any sources at all? Nothing in the description or comments. Also, they told people to soak things in peanut oil as fireproofing which is some of the dumbest shit I've heard today and I've seen comments on Hexbear so that's saying something.
The fuck?
As the description on this video says, "peanut oil, meet fire." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUZAavAUL_g
It's a civil engineering disasters podcast. I've heard them before, they're actually pretty good. I like them but it requires looking at slides, so doesn't really fit listening on my commute so I haven't gotten too far, though. Usually they've got pretty good information so I doubt they'd say anything outrageously untrue unless they're joking. There are a couple laymen in there just to tell jokes and put some banter in between the civil engineering and retelling history, so I could imagine one of them saying something like that jokingly, or one of the engineers, who has a really dry sense of humor, saying something like that, but I haven't listened to this particular episode. But anyway, that's probably why it meanders a bit throughout. Because the podcasts style. Anyway, just saying so people don't have a negative reaction of the podcast from this reply because it's not a bad one lol.
Got a time stamp or anything?
Yup, 48:30 they talk about the "cleaning" process
Thanks!
Well There's your problem just did an episode on that https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K4yCXIZ32lk
This is why I refuse to purchase or consume ANY food products from China. There system can't be trusted period.
I thought China was heavily censoring criticism and you couldn't voice your opinions publicly? lol
Basically a food scandal has been uncovered by their media and the government takes action in the public's interest. Something you'd expect a functioning government to do. And this article makes you think it's a bad thing.
Summed up:
Based.
The entire article has so much coping and seething and was a really fun read. Thank you for sharing.
I think you can't really voice your opinion. But that's due to the consequences, you can't post illegal shit to your Facebook too, i.e. you'll be reported very quickly and it'll be taken down but you can still do it if you want to run the gauntlet.