Fear Mongering About Range Anxiety Has To Stop — CT Governor Calls Out EV Opponents
cleantechnica.com
Fear Mongering About Range Anxiety Has To Stop — CT Governor Calls Out EV Opponents::Several state governors are fighting fear mongering as they attempt to reduce transportation emissions in their states.
I was among those worrying about range until I spent 5 minutes thinking about what I actually do on a daily/weekly/monthly basis.
We'd still have my wife's ICE van, we both work from home, and 99% of the time my work-related travel is local (within 5 miles). My wife's van can pull the camper for our camping trips, or for our longer drives.
I have no good reason not to get an EV for my next car.
I was too - that was until this year when I've had to do multiple 800km long trips and I've found out that mentally I can't really do longer than 200-250 km without a 20 min break. With that in mind, most of the EVs would be perfectly fine for me.
This is still a problem when there is not enough charging spots for peak days.
In France most people go to summer vacation at the same time, and on those days when all the charging spots are taken and you have to wait 20 minutes for one of the owner to finish his break it's a real problem.
I would actually consider if you actually need 2 cars at all given your description of the situation. If we're worried about the environment flat getting rid of a car is a bigger win than an EV.
If a car sits in the driveway 99% of the year, it’s not hurting the environment for 99% of its existence. If they continue to use it as a daily driver, I agree with you. But keeping a second vehicle for situations where it is specifically suited isn’t really that big a problem.
Not driving a car for long periods of time is bad for the car. That means that they would replace it after a few years, and still have two cars, instead of keeping just the one. It takes a lot of resources to build a car, even more so for EVs.
While kinda true, there is general maintenance for such situations. Also nothing stopping you from driving it around the block once a month.
Well, it's the build cost for a new car vs not building that car in terms of the environment. I guess buying a used car would alleviate that, but at some point having another car built is worse than not having it built.
I've very seriously considered that. Right now, we could probably go down to one car without issue. We have two reasons why I'd like to maintain a second, though. We have young kids, and we are already starting to run them around to different places at the same time. We're looking to move soon, and the idea is to move outside of town where we have more room. That would make basically every drive longer, which would increase the likelihood of needing a second vehicle.
Either way, an EV should be fine. Depending on cost, I might stick with a small, used ICE this time, because I don't need much. But I'm not at that point quite yet, so maybe things will change by the time I'm ready.
Repairability is a big one for reasons not to get a new ev for me
Why would you think EVs are not repairable?
Because they are relatively new in the automotive world. I can take my '08 CRV to just about any auto parts store in America and get just about any part I need (or take it to about any third party repair shop with the same results). Good luck doing that with most EVs especially Teslas. Tesla is the most egregious example as they are anti right to repair and have seemed to take a page out of Apple's book as far as locking down their supply chain for parts.
Hopefully this will get better with time as third party shops have time to acclimate themselves and their technicians to EV architecture, and EV-specific parts become more available. Though the latter I feel is highly dependent on manufacturers not trying to turn EVs into phones in terms of repairability/serviceability.
In the meantime, as an average Joe without a lot of money, I really like the idea of keeping my relatively low cost older ICE vehicles because if shit hits the fan, if I can't fix it relatively cheaply, there will likely be multiple shops that can without it costing me an arm and a leg and/or taking weeks or months to wait on the manufacturer to supply the parts needed.
There really aren't that many components to these things, and few of them are moving parts. There's no water pump, alternator, starter, or A/C compressor on an accessory belt (there is an A/C compressor, of course, but it's powered more like a home unit). No oil changes to worry about. No pollution/exhaust system. There is a coolant system for the battery, and a transmission, but neither of them have nearly as much wear as an internal combustion engine with its, well, internal combustion. The transmission is a bunch of fixed gears that don't need to shift. Brake pads hardly get used since the car primarily uses regenerative braking.
Yeah, Tesla kinda sucks when things do go wrong. I definitely avoided them. But if a car is less likely to break down, I'd be ok with a little trade-off in availability for what little would actually break.
Looking at the tires on my Tesla, eventually replacing those looks scary
I think this argument is kind of a misconception. Just because an EV drivetrain has fewer moving parts than an ICE doesn't necessarily mean it's more reliable. There is a decent AP article from November 2023 that touches on this and suggests that EVs are actually far more unreliable than traditional ICE vehicles. I would link it but I can't figure out how to remove all the tracking junk from the URL.
Regardless I really like the idea of one day owning an EV so I hope most of these issues will be worked out as the technology matures.
Edit (source): https://web.archive.org/web/20231207233608/https://apnews.com/article/electric-vehicles-consumer-reports-gasoline-vehicles-charging-eed9c3b8d86c1f7708b7c6e2d4dbf55e
I think the reliability numbers are skewed because there are a lot of corners being cut. For example, Tesla sells the most EVs, but they had played fast and loose with quality control to keep their numbers pumped up. Then there are cheaper auto manufacturers entering the market because the barrier to entry is lower with EVs and their quality control is all over the place. Given the same quality control as the larger automakers, EVs should be more reliable. Dealerships have fought against selling EVs because they miss out on lucrative service visits.
Not necessarily, no. But when many of these moving parts turn at a couple thousand RPM under normal use and often get used a couple hours per day, that's a lot of wear and room for error
Aside from battery and the electric motor itself, mechanical parts are easy to come by from other sources than Tesla. Parts related to e.g. suspension, brakes and steering are all easily bought without involving Tesla at all, and can be changed by any mechanic.
Again, why would you think EVs are different?
Third party shops are not manufacturing parts.
If your wanna talk about Teslas, I'll agree. If you wanna talk about "new cars" I'll agree again. But none of this is exclusive specifically to EVs.
Because third party repairs are often unavailable or void the warranty. Cars are becoming a subscription service to dealerships.
No they don't. Cars have long since had regulations allowing for third party repairs.
Why would you take to a third party if you're under warranty?
What kind of subscription allows you to repair the car?
This is not exclusive to EVs.
I think the cost to replace the battery is an issue.
You replace the battery of an EV just about as often as you replace the engine block in an ICE car. Both do happen . . . but very, very infrequently.
That doesn’t sound right. I’ve got 200,000 miles on my 2015 Passat TDI, and expect another 100,000 easily with minimal repair/maintenance cost.
What’s the service life of the battery of a ten year old EV? The electric motor should be almost indestructible, but I have serious doubts that the battery capacity will still be reasonable after the same amount of time, even if you baby it.
I'm on my 3rd EV . . and none of them have been a Tesla. I am FAR from a Tesla/Musk fanboy . . .but they do release the exact data you are asking about. Here you go . . 12% degradation after 200,000 miles.
https://electrek.co/2023/04/25/tesla-update-battery-degradation/
Roughly speaking, EV's lose range at a similar rate that ICE engines lose horsepower.
https://carbuzz.com/news/10-reasons-why-engines-lose-horsepower-over-time
But a 10 year old Tesla is worth much more than a 10 year old BMW . . .
https://ark-invest.com/articles/analyst-research/ev-batteries-value/
Here is a Nissan Leaf used as a taxi . . .100,000 miles with no noticeable battery degradation . . .
https://www.speakev.com/threads/c-c-taxis-100-000-mile-nissan-leaf-full-battery-included.8804/
I'm wary of any data coming from Tesla themselves.
That's kind of comparing apples and oranges. Also an engine rebuild is also considerably cheaper than battery replacements.
That link sounds more theory than reality. A lot of "if" and "may" used in that article.
100,000 miles over ten years isn't much. Reaching that amount of miles is considered less than the minimum for modern cars. And it's only one example, I've seen examples of the exact opposite.
How old and how many miles did the EVs you've owned have when you sold them?
There's not a ton of data on older EVs so it's kind of hard get a clear picture on their longevity. I know they're constantly improving and I'll eventually get one, just not today 🤷🏻.
I cannot disagree about being wary of Tesla . . I certainly am. Here's an article about data from 6,300 EV's from 12 manufactures. Also includes a cool graphing tool . . . https://electrek.co/2019/12/14/8-lessons-about-ev-battery-health-from-6300-electric-cars/ Graphing the data: https://storage.googleapis.com/geotab-sandbox/ev-battery-degradation/index.html
As for my own EV's . . I was an early adopter with the 24kWh Nissan Leaf - only had about 65 miles of "real world" range. Didn't keep that long and traded it for a VW eGolf . . . 125 "real world" miles. Had that for several years . . .but traded it early in 2023 for a VW ID4. With 300+ miles, I no longer think about range. None of them had/have more than 30,000 miles . . .and I never noticed any degradation at all. The impact of cold weather is a MUCH more more noticeable issue!!
That's still at max, 6 years of data. Am I reading that right? But, to be fair there's no indication of a dramatic drop off, at worst that data is incomplete.
I wouldn't be worried about buying a brand new EVs. My problem is that I exclusively buy 3-5 year old cars because that's the most cost effective way to buy them. So if I bought a 5 year old EV and owned it for another 5 years it's a 10 year old EV which is the very edge of the data is be able to find. That kind of unknown is a bit unsettling along with some other personal use case issues.
Thank you for the info though.
A few things to casually point out:
EV batteries are mandated by law to have an 8 year, 100K mile warranty. It's fair that you'd want it to last significantly longer, but if these things were built to go kaput immediately after with very little buffer from the warranty period, you're risking a lot of "below average" batteries having to be replaced under warranty - not to mention the reputation of these companies being absolutely shot as they ramp up EV production if they all went out immediately after.
Most modern EV batteries are built with a battery management system. Basically a heating and cooling system and such that you don't see in consumer electronics very much, meant to keep the battery system happy and healthy. The biggest exception to this is the Nissan Leaf, which is based on painfully outdated designs that never really improved from when they first came out almost 15 years ago. Many of those cars have cooked batteries and you would be right to be concerned about it.
You don't think the cost to replace an engine or transmission are an issue?
Do you realize batteries are typically made up of several replaceable "cells". Like by the time you need a new one there will be several affordable third party options that will also increase your range.
Last I checked an engine and transmission rebuild combined cost less than replacing just the batteries on an EV. An ICE might need a rebuild every 20+ years but, we don't even have 20 years of EV data to look at to compare.
No, I don't follow EVs super close. What brands allow this? What third party batteries can I buy and how much do they cost and how do they compare to OEM batteries?
Depends on which ones you buy and when.
It's very easy to look at 10+ year old batteries and extrapolate.
That's what we call a "loaded question". There's all kinds of companies.
How much does it cost to replace an EV battery on average?
There aren't a ton of 10+ year old EVs is my problem. 10 years ago EV were still a pretty niche thing. If you have that kind of info I'd love to take a look though.
I definitely wouldn't call that a loaded question. How do you figure that it is?
It should be better but Tesla has been making it worse.
The Model Y has a structural battery pack. That is the battery is integral to the car, and filled with an almost impossible to remove foam. It is unrepairable and un replaceable. Musk has said when the battery dies, you scrap the entire car and they recycle the lithium from the scrap.
You're conflating Tesla with "EVs". Simply don't buy a Tesla if that's what you want.
Given Tesla's market share, your claim that easily replaced batteries is "typical" isn't accurate. A large percentage isn't replaceable so it's something consumers should consider when choosing a brand.
Tesla is one of dozens of brands. So no.
Yes but we weren't discussing "choosing a brand", we were discussing EVs.
Tesla is 50% of all EV's sold. So, yes.
That's the point! You presented "swap a new battery" as obvious to the the OP when it's not obvious. You have to first pick a brand that allows that. Model Y was first with structural battery but others like Volvo and BMW are coming soon.
Right so then "EVs"= "Tesla"? That's the argument you want to go with?
I didn't present anything as obvious. Just a matter of fact.
...which is easy enough?
[Citation needed]
I specifically DIDN'T say that! You said this:
You didn't qualify that with "only if you buy a model that doesn't have a structural battery."
Volvo and BMW are coming soon.
https://www.sae.org/news/2023/01/bmw-future-batteries---ulrich
https://www.just-auto.com/news/volvo-plans-to-make-battery-pack-part-of-body-structure/?cf-view
GM too:
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/understanding-structural-ev-batteries-2021-07-23/
Genuine question, not meant to be an insult:
If most of your trips are within 5 miles, why would you drive? It seems excessive when you could just walk, or cycle, etc.
If it's work related I'd imagine time would play a big part of it. They're not going to walk up to 5 miles to the client and then 5 miles back. And it's not a good option if they have to take along something big and bulky or if the weather is crap.
I'm in the same boat. I make drives that require refueling even if I leave home with a full tank once every other year (Philly to Indianapolis). Even with a very high range EV, that would probably require multiple recharges each way, so that's not a great use case for EVs, but you know what? That's what rental cars are for. I'll happily get an EV for the 99% of driving that I do within three hours of the Philly metro area and rent an ICE car for the at worst annual trip I take that isn't convenient in an EV.
Of course, this is all theoretical for me because I drive a company car and so don't have much choice in my vehicle, and I probably won't have to buy my own car until that job perk goes away.
There’s a demographic of people with their own home, at least two cars, and qualify for rebates, where an EV should be an easy decision
I've had an EV for 9 months now and I've actually experienced far less range anxiety with my EV than with my previous ICEs. This is due to the fact that because I can charge overnight in my garage I almost never leave home without a full battery. Versus before with my ICEs where I'd often be driving across town on fumes because I'd forgotten to fuel up the night before.
I drive in the city/urban areas the vast majority of the time so 200+ miles of range is plenty for my day-to-day needs. I've honestly never run into a situation where I've been worried about running out of juice; I rarely even get below 50%.
As for longer drives, I've done several 600+ mile road trips without issue. Sure, charging takes a bit longer than fueling up at a gas station but the opportunity to stretch my legs, rest in the car, or get a bite to eat does wonders for reducing road fatigue. As for finding charging stations, I'd recommend planning your route beforehand but the charging network is dense enough in my region to where I can usually choose to skip a station if it's too busy and try the next one.
Yup, this is the part people seem unable to wrap their heads around. Waking up with a full battery every morning and never needing to play the whole "I probably have enough to make it to work and back" game is insanely liberating.
This has been my experience too, I've put 90k on my EV in the past 2 years. I've never experienced range anxiety, and I live in Australia which is a similar size to USA and we do regular road road trips of 5 plus hours.
Road trips in EVs are actully more chill because the car informs you where and when to charg and you never wait more than 30 mins to complete a charge, which frankly is how long you should be resting between 3 hour driving stints anyway. Evs actually discourage driver fatigue which has to be a plus no one mentions too.
Every single range anxiety issue I've read about has been from a person who almost certainly doesn't own, and hasn't driven an EV or has some weird preserve petrol agenda.
Where I used to live and work near Hartford range anxiety wouldn’t be an issue. Where I now live and work in Oklahoma it still is an extremely big issue. A friend in CO with an EV wanted to come visit but couldn’t make the drive in one day due to charging options. Hell, if I want to go on a 4 hour drive to Amarillo I need to carefully plan my fuel stops because there’s hundred mile stretches where I can’t even fill up my Ford Focus, let alone charge a Tesla. Range anxiety is a legitimate concern for much of the country.
For much of the country in terms of land maybe, but not in terms of people. Most people live in or near high population areas where using an EV is fine. The person in question saying that fear mongering needs to stop was the governor of Connecticut. Connecticut is not Oklahoma. There is zero reason to fear monger range anxiety in Connecticut.
But even for people in places like Oklahoma, there's a couple things you should consider. First is, don't rush out and buy an EV just because you feel like you're being told to. Only buy an EV once your existing vehicle is no longer viable. Buying a new car when your old one still works is not very green. But definitely consider an EV when the time comes, even if you have range anxiety. Why? For one, the money you will save on gas can allow you to rent a gas car for those long trips you need to make and then you don't have to put those extra miles on your own car. Remember, tires are expensive and wear down with miles driven. Or, with the money saved from gas, you could take a bus, a train, or possibly even an airplane. Or if you really don't want to do any of that, you could probably find a buddy who still has a gas car and trade for the week. Just because you buy an electric vehicle, doesn't mean you are now locked out of ever using a different kind of transportation. But number 2? Over the coming years, EV infrastructure will be constantly increasing. Yeah, some states are being regressive at the moment, but they will turn around. So even in places were range anxiety is legitimate, it won't be a problem for much longer, except in those edge cases where even a gas car currently has issues, but since even a gas car has issues, it doesn't make a difference. And third? There are so many companies working on battery tech right now, it's crazy. Some are working on higher energy density so we can get longer range, others are working on better materials so we can stop using unethically acquired minerals, some are working on making batteries that function better in the cold. None of this helps the car you buy today, but it will help the car you buy in 5 years.
There's a reason I specifically opened with how in CT it isn't an issue before explaining that in the majority of the country (notice I said country vs the population) it still is. Like the CT governor you still seem to not quite grasp the reality of what it is like to live somewhere other than a built up urban area. There are no buses here, there are no trains here. If I wanted to rent a gas car, I need to drive 120 miles to the city because there isn't a rental option in my town (which actually qualifies as a "city". It's an hour drive to the nearest movie theater. While NYC alone has more people than the entire state of OK, there are still millions of people living here that simply can't get by with an EV for day to day lives, let alone if they want to make a trip by any transportation method. Add in the fact that even with current developments and proposals battery energy density is a hard limit of physics and chemistry, unless a completely new method of energy storage is invented it will always be 1/100th of what gasoline has meaning EVs will continue to be absurdly overweight. Don't worry, I'm not in a rush to sell any of my ICE vehicles, at this point I might literally hold onto them forever because there isn't a single car being made new right now that I like better than anything I currently own.
some states like Tennessee have removed EV infrastructure the charging stations
how is range not an issue
In your example it sounds more like Tennessee is the issue, not range anxiety. If they were to remove all gasoline infrastructure suddenly ICE range anxiety would be a major issue? No, it is the people removing the infrastructure.
From what I read online, Tennessee anxiety ought to be much more widespread than it seems to be.
Yes... It would be an issue I you had a ICE car and couldn't gas up in some states. That would be something you would have to account for. Same goes for not being able to charge an EV. Doesn't really matter if it's because some asshole did it for political reasons or not when you're stranded on the side of the road.
There's no fear mongering about it! I'm anxious about the range of an electric car and not having a quick and convenient way to refuel if I near empty.
Honestly, track how far you normally drive and you’ll see you don’t go that far. My PHEV has a paltry 26 mile range and we use electric only 90% of the time. An EV with 200+ miles wouldn’t be an issue unless you travel for work.
People really like to overestimate how much range they actually need on a daily basis.
I drive maybe 200 miles a week. Almost all EVs could easily get that range in spring/fall. And even in the worst of winter as long as I have 120 volts to keep the battery warm I'll make it through the week no problem.
Honestly big fast charger networks aren't the biggest hurdle. We need basic 120v or 240v outlets ran to every apartment/town homes parking spot. With essentially a trickle from 120v you'll be fine for 90% of your driving needs.
I don't think the issue is the daily basis. It's the few long trips people take yearly that would blast that 200 mile range out. People don't want to buy a very expensive new car that they know won't work for them several times a year. It's the same reason people who tow something several times a year make sure their vehicle can tow that.
Because renting a vehicle for a trip or to tow is actually a PITA and expensive.
It's a hell of a lot cheaper to buy an EV with a range/capacity lower than what you need 5% of the time, and spending $40 to rent a truck/$100 to rent a car for a trip than it is to buy some ridiculously oversized battery. Sure 5% of the time it's useful, but getting a rental isn't that bad.
Plus with a rental you can pick the exact type of car suits the trip well. I took a V6 camaro on a road trip for thanksgiving and that thing gets almost 30 mpg doing 80+ on the highway. Vs if I had my one size fits all Outback for that trip I'd be getting 25 doing only 70, and in the low 20s at 80 if I'm lucky.
I don't know where you live so I can't talk to your experience, but where I live, if I want to rent a car for a week trip I'm driving at least 30 minutes one way, spending an hour getting the car, and paying about $1,000. If I want to rent a truck for towing (we tried this for like a year, for ~3 uses that year) we have to drive 45 minutes, it seems to take them about 2 hours to do the paperwork if we're lucky - we've waited 4 hours or more before, and we paid $350 for a weekend because they couldn't rent it for one day for Saturday because they were closed on Sunday, but charged for that day anyway. Then we got to spend another 1.5 hours driving there and back again to drop it off, 40 minutes doing paperwork.
This is a plausible PITA, stress and annoyance once every 5 years or so, but for multiple times a year, plus all the "we just WILL NOT use a truck and make due with a less suited tow vehicle and light trailer" which is more like 12 times a year, we broke down and bought a used truck.
You see - people don't buy cars just for dollars and cents, they also buy it for value, and in a lot of cases, that's paying slightly more for the ease and convenience of jumping into said car and doing what they need to do right now, rather than with days of planning.
I know some folks that just made a cross country trip in a Tesla model Y. They don't do huge distances every day so it took a couple of weeks but they made it just fine. They did note that the South was really bad for chargers. Something about some state legislatures or municipalities actually passing laws against public charging or something like that. It sounded pretty southern and believable though.
If I had Tesla Y money, I'd get an RV for a slow cross country road trip. Save on hotels. I'm talking about trips where you want to get to your destination, yet don't really want the added expense, hassle, and limits of flying (and probably renting a car at the other end). This mostly has to do if you have 3 or more people on the trip, if you're just one person who can avoid renting the car on the other end somehow, it doesn't apply.
They did have one but got rid of it because they didn't want the hassle. They are olds and are more about convenience at this point.
Boy have I got a video for you! https://youtube.com/watch?v=1Vm_ASm2zfs
I will wait in line for cheap gas at Costco a hundred times before I have to stop and charge for 30 minutes on my annual road trip.
/s
I have no idea what this has to do with towing or long road trips, but my personal experience is it's usually pull up to gas station, pull up to pump, start pumping. I very rarely have waited in line anywhere. Even when I have, it's like 5 minutes maybe. Do you claim there aren't ever lines at charging stations, and there won't be lines in the future as more people want to use them?
I charge at home. I never need to go out of my way or really even think about fuel/charge level. Every day I wake up with a full tank. It’s always the same price (cheap), so there’s no need to shop around.
I know not everyone can charge at home, but at least half of America can, and it’s a convenience that is seldom mentioned in discussions of “range anxiety.”
I'll just repost the parent post to show how irrelevant this is to this specific thread:
I don’t think the issue is the daily basis. It’s the few long trips people take yearly that would blast that 200 mile range out. People don’t want to buy a very expensive new car that they know won’t work for them several times a year. It’s the same reason people who tow something several times a year make sure their vehicle can tow that.
Because renting a vehicle for a trip or to tow is actually a PITA and expensive.
If you go the Tesla route, they have fast charging stations roughly every 100 miles everywhere in the US. Other brands are working on it.
So you’re talking a 30 mins break every 2.5 hours of driving. And if you can charge at your destination, it’s even better. Trade that for never need to stop for gas outside of road trips and it really, really isn’t that bad.
If you have 20 minutes, watch this: https://youtu.be/vXzuFprlyrw?si=deU4W2fAQ5KsBmsM
The end result is that over 18 hours of driving, the Tesla only added 1.5 hours compared to a gas vehicle.
I mean, it's not how I travel, we usually take about 10 minutes every 2.5 hours if I'm with others, by myself I usually do 4 hours without stopping. The main thing is not that EVs will never be there, it's that right now the infrastructure still isn't there. I'm literally just starting to see chargers at WaWas and that's not guaranteed, and I have no idea what they work with TBH. The great thing about gas is I know every gas station works with every gas car. We finally just agreed on a charger, but I still will wait a few years to see if it actually pans out to be the USB-C of cars.
And we just haven't yet gotten the chargers where anyone wants to stop. They're in strip malls as far away from the stores as possible. They're in downtown parking garages. This in some ways is great, but also TBH backwards - they're where locals, you know, the people who really ought to be charging at home - would make the most use of them. (at least around me in rural southern NY and northern PA) It's the places you avoid like the plague on a road trip because you want on and off the highway fast, not to investigate the local downtown. They're also not by the convenience stores or food places where you might realistically spend 15-40 minutes.
The other thing that I hadn't thought of till seeing some other road trips (though they were in the UK) was - plan your trip is great, but what if something goes wrong? An unexpected detour? A traffic jam? Until the chargers are in way more places, you could really feel unsafe if you go below 50% charge. I don't like going below 1/2 a tank of gas to have a buffer. And that's going to change things also. Because worst case with a gas car on a trip, I can call AAA and get 2 gallons delivered to me on any county road forget about state roads etc. I have no idea - am I getting a tow or something with an EV?
I'll also say, if I'm driving 18 hours, the last thing I want to hear is I'm going to intentionally make it 19.5 hours.
Diesel, premium, E85, etc.
There are already adapters. They aren't that expensive. My Tesla works with every charger in the US at the moment. Tesla's adapter for other vehicles should be out in the next year. In fact, when I purchased it, my vehicle didn't have the functionality to communicate using the CCS adapter, but a $140 part and an afternoon gave it that capability. I assume the same will be true for any future changes.
Tesla's superchargers are specifically built right off major highway exits by design. Take a look Most larger multi-car stations are also built off highway exists. Urban charging stations are mostly intended for apartment dwellers as a stopgap before curbside charging is more prevalent.
Yes they are. The car even tells you what amenities are available in each location. If you're still not convinced, just take a look at https://www.plugshare.com/ and play with the filters. I do agree that they tend to be at the end of the parking lot, but any closer and ICE drivers would hog them for convenience. So that's a 3-5 minute walk both ways I guess.
Cars get better mileage when they're driven slower. Same for EVs.
One thing people tend to ignore is that you start every day and every trip with a full tank. My vehicle starts every day with 250 miles of range and rarely dips below 200. When I drove an ICE, I'd sometimes leave for work with less than 30 miles in the tank. Statistically speaking, you're more likely to have more range at any given moment in an EV than an ICE provided you can charge at home.
Yes, and what kind of vehicle does the AAA person drive? They tow you to somewhere you can charge. I mean it feels a bit silly to purchase a vehicle to make it slightly more convenient only after you already fucked up and have to wait two hours for AAA to show up. Your day is ruined either way. If you're that concerned, you can replace your jumper cables and jerry can with a few adapters and plug into at a lot of remote locations. A 1 hour stop at an RV site will get you 40 miles of range. I personally like the idea that the worst case scenario for me (no cell service) is finding an exposed 120V outlet, running an extension cord, and camping out for the night. 10 hours gets you about 30-40 miles of range.
The infrastructure is good enough as is, and it's only getting better. If you really drive long distance more than you drive locally and/or you can't charge at home, I can see the trepidation, but the benefits of charging at home are tremendous and for some reason, vehicle manufacturers and consumers are ignoring it. The current ads are trying to convince you that EVs are just as convenient as gasoline vehicles which presupposes that gasoline was convenient for everyone in the first place.
I have to admit, it's been decades since I've driven a car that takes anything but 87 octane. I forgot there are other needs, and if that's the case you do need to plan I guess. But I have yet to get to a gas station that's working that doesn't have 87 octane.
Yea, I'd ignored Tesla's network because I was never going to buy a Tesla, and till like a month ago, no one else could use those so they were out of mind for me. Honestly, the main thing I want to see is all charge points taking a credit card standard like gas pumps do. I don't want apps or sign ups or saving anything. I'm driving by one time in my life, or maybe twice - I don't want an account. I fear it's likely I'll lose this unless the government mandates taking normal payment options like cash (which honestly they should).
Honestly, I looked at plugshare, and there's more than I expected, though I'd go by at least 2-3 gas stations in each direction before I'd get to one. The issue seems to be they're for some reason not on the road noticeable like gas stations, so you wouldn't know about them without driving into random apartment parking lots or car dealerships. TBH, I had no idea car dealerships would have charging stations. I'd still feel a little uncomfortable going into a hospital parking lot or apartment lot I don't live in or college campus I don't go to or town hall of a town I don't live in to use the charger, but maybe that's just a cultural shift we have to endure. I will say that's still not necessarily where I want to spend 45 minutes or more but fair enough. I also live in a rural area and often am going to rural areas, so the middle part is on a highway, but not necessarily significant start or end parts.
Yes, I've regularly said for a daily commute of any normal length even around here (100 miles or so being the longest I'm aware of), if you have faster than 110 charging you're golden for that use. I've never suggested in this thread that EVs haven't met that need for like 8 years or so now. It's just that few people have a "daily commute" car and "all other needs car", they buy one car or truck. On trips I wouldn't assume there's a charger available for me at the hotel or resort for instance.
If you didn't plan enough to have reasonable amounts of gas in your tank, I really fail to see how you're planning enough to take road trips in an EV. What if you forget to plug in your EV? These are kind of stupid arguments - People can run out of gas, just like they can run out of charge. No one is (actually if they think about it) concerned about that, which is why I have said in this thread it's a concern about finding refill locations, not a concern about range. And I think the problem is actually that no one (outside Tesla) is building "EV Charge stations" but that's what the masses are looking for. I'm finally starting to see some WaWa's put in charging stations, but we need to start seeing either better education of the masses (marketing changes) or people getting the local small gas stations to put in some charging stations too.
If I still drove somewhere not for a long trip regularly, I would be interested. I had been interested for a while. Now that I go to doctors appointments maybe 2 times a month and long trips otherwise, the gas isn't that inconvenient. I just make it part of my trip to town once a month or so. This change in my life made me realize that the real win was pandemic style WFH for anyone who can. EVs can work for some people, I'm just saying they're far from ready for everyone. I'm sure they'll be ready eventually, but I've pushed out my expectation of when it'd make sense for me to get one.
If you have 120V to keep the battery warm, you have 120V to charge from.
I love it when ev drivers act like the rest of us are just fucking stupid.
People really like to reframe the discussion to be about daily use when it's almost completely meaningless in the context of maximum range.
I've been on several road trips where there weren't any chargers along my route, or that I had to make a long, several hour detour. So I ended up having to get another vehicle. Which was fine. But it's not a non-issue either.
And that's with a Tesla. Any other vehicle there will be even fewer, and a good chance they won't even be working when you get to them.
This is only accurate if you are being as stubborn as possible. There are many third party, and even some first party solutions to this problem. With the right adapter, literally any EV can charge at a Tesla station.
I don't even know what that's supposed to mean.
Currently there are only a handful of stations that support this and most of them are located on the opposite side of the country from me.
The only way it makes sense is if you’re intentionally constraining things to the most unfavorable. You’re ignoring charge stations, ignoring that EV adapters exist, ignoring portable chargers.
The adapters I’m talking about are something you just throw in your trunk and pull out when you need them. They are “universal” and don’t require support on the charger side. You just buy one for your specific car.
There's no such thing.
I must be hallucinating these.
What you're hallucinating is that those do anything today:
They're not compatible with anything today. They will be, in the future.
Even when you plan ahead on a road trip there's a pretty high chance half the chargers are down and there's a queue of cars waiting. Made it to the next stop on my last trip with 4 miles to spare. That was a nerve-wracking drive.
Now I gotta check plug share to see recent reviews on stations and decide whether or not to take my ev.
I've owned an electric since 2013, never run into a down charging station. Early on, I'd run into single chargers that were occupied, but that's it.
Not saying it's not possible to have a broken station, just never hit it. But I, like most people, charge at home, 95% of the time.
Where are you located where there is perfect charging station maintenance for the previous 10 years?
I'm not saying it isn't possible that you've never encountered a broken station, but I've had an EV for only a few months now and encounter malfunctioning stations on nearly every trip to a DC fast charger. It usually isn't that every single station is broken, but if there are 4 stations, 1-2 of them will be out of service.
I’m still new to EVs but with the convenience of charging from home, my battery is just never low. Think of it like charging your phone: start every morning with a full charge and you just don’t have to worry about it
(Actually have mine set to stop charging at 80% and I don’t drive much at the moment so don’t plug-in every night)
Sounds like you are fear mongering.
From TFA:
So 41% of EV drivers worry about it? That's an issue! I'm guessing only 5-10% of ice drivers every worry about running out of gas.
What you're not addressing is that current EV drivers change how they drive, i.e. don't go on the same sort of trips the same way (if the various articles on that site are to be believed). This isn't addressing range anxiety, it's saying plan your trips around charging your car so we work around the problem. And the problem isn't "range" now - it's where are the fast chargers? It's getting better, but it's still hard enough to pull off that there are regular youtube and news articles about the hassles and issues doing a road trip in an EV. No one does the same sort of reporting on ICE because you can find gas stations just about everywhere every 5-10 miles just about anywhere you go, and where it isn't there is some reporting of the signs saying "last gas for 100 miles" or whatever. People know they can find a gas station, even if they're going into a rural area.
So you're saying 41% of EV owners have range anxiety? That's a pretty significant portion...
I drove half way across the country and back last summer in my EV and it was great, except for a couple of the stops being in shady locations.
EV rest stops still have a little ways to go to becoming more convenient, but there is no range issue.
Yup, we did 2 x 5200+ mile round trips this year with zero issues. I think the problem is that people don't like the fact that you actually have to think a tiny bit and plan a tiny bit sometimes instead of just jumping in the car and going until it yells at you to stop and get gas. People in this country, especially the anti-ev crowd, really dislike having to think for themselves.
As someone who has been driving an EV for several years now, it really is nuts hearing people on the internet constantly repeat the same three or four stupid talking points that people with first hand experience have been rebutting for the better part of a decade at this point.
I have owned an EV for a couple years. Range is constantly on my mind. Did we charge it last night? Crap, we had a 70% charge and need to go across town. If we end up running side errands, we may be cutting it close" etc
Far more mental overhead than the combustion engine car we also use.
I ultimately like the EV, but don't pretend that it's biggest draw back shouldn't be a point of discussion anymore.
This is how I feel about the EV range…on my PHEV. We get 40 miles max (30 in the winter) in full EV mode, and so we stress about whether we can get through our daily trips on the battery. (Of course, when our relatively small battery runs out we just use gas.)
But if we had the range that modern full EVs have I cannot imagine having range anxiety on an average day.
Yes, if you cannot charge at home or work, your experience will differ significantly from mine. But if you can, it's a game changer. I feel like this qualification is implied at this point. If everyone with a private driveway and a normal commute went EV, the infrastructure for people in apartments would fall into place as well.
Are there no (or few) DC fast chargers in your city? In your described situation, I'd have no problem pulling into any number of DC fast chargers for 5 minutes to put $1.75 of kw into the car to give me plenty of charge for peace of mind.
They are pretty far inbetween, but they do exist. Definitely going out of your way to get to one
Time commitment just to get to one, time commitment to charge, time commitment to get back on track to where you were going.
There's plenty of places and points of time that this would be a big enough of an issue for people to push them away.
However, I think people should heavily consider one especially if they're just going in and around town and have the luxury of being able to install a charger at their home/place of residence.
As far as I know there are no EV chargers in my city, but I live in a rural town with a low population. According to google the nearest charger to me is 20 miles away in the next town over.
If you can forgive how ad heavy it is, you could check Plugshare.com. You might be pleasantly surprised.
More or less exactly how every major political issue works: people with no or extremely limited personal experience repeating things they've been told by someone in their tribe.
Universal_healthcare has entered the chat.
How about trains? Americans are too used to their cars for those long-range trips. Make them unnecessary. Build out the infrastructure. Have your car for local trips, switch to trains for anything else.
The Biden administration is working on improving train infrastructure but if you look at the map of what they're adding, it's limited to a very small section of the country. I mean, it's like cross country but it's such a massive country that it's still super limited.
funny how biden said rail workers are not allowed to protest and ask for higher wages and better worker rights in general then bam comes out with expanding train infrastructure
someone is definitely looking out for his actual constituents
Corporations are people too. Please think of the bottom line and its feelings would ya
Here's the summary for the wikipedia article you mentioned in your comment:
Corporate personhood or juridical personality is the legal notion that a juridical person such as a corporation, separately from its associated human beings (like owners, managers, or employees), has at least some of the legal rights and responsibilities enjoyed by natural persons. In most countries, a corporation has the same rights as a natural person to hold property, enter into contracts, and to sue or be sued. Granting non-human entities personhood is a Western concept applied to corporations.^article^ ^|^ ^about^
Yes, we should invest in trains, but this is not a short or even medium term solution. It's also horrifyingly expensive in many parts of the US, and broad public support simply isn't there. So in the mean time we need to adapt using the infrastructure that already exists.
Ideally I'd like trains for local trips and high speed rail for longer distances. I'd prefer to not own or use a car at all but most cities would have to be torn down and rebuilt to achieve this.
We did it once, we can do it again!
I don't disagree but I also don't think it will be something that can be done very quickly. While switching propulsion systems in cars can be fine till the time that they are not needed.
Same, but tearing down and rebuilding cities is a feature, not a bug. Well, except for the carbon emissions involved in doing that.
Surely buses make way more sense for local trips.
Years ago, I, a brit, was in Austin Texas for 7 weeks for work. During that time I thought it would good to go see New Orleans. I was like "I'll just jump on a train and read and sleep until I'm there." This what I had done in Europe. I had my error explained. So I drove. I mean, it was kind of interesting to see the different landscapes, but it was also really boring and time consuming. Basically got there, spent a few hours, and had to turn round and drive back.
Why the hell doesn't the US have a passenger train network??
We do, it's just very limited. Actually in Austin I think you could have pulled it off. You could have taken the Texas Eagle to San Antonio, then the Sunset Limited to New Orleans. It would have taken 27 hours and the Sunset Limited only runs 3 times a week, so if you departed Monday at 6:30 pm you'd be in NO Tuesday at 9:40 pm. Bon Voyage!
Just kidding. As a rail fan, it bugs me, too. My wife and I spent two weeks in Germany, visiting multiple cities, and we used a private car once (a relative gave us a ride) and a taxi once. Otherwise it was all trains and the occasional city bus, plus one motorcoach that took us to Neuschwanstein. It was pretty nice.
It was a bit of a culture shock to be honest.
There are spots where it's much brighter - for example, between Boston and Washington, DC, there is quite a bit of rail service, with departures frequently from each endpoint and cities in between (Baltimore, Philadelphia, New York, etc.). It's higher speed than most passenger rail in the country, but not "high speed" in the sense of Europe or Japan.
I've gone from Baltimore to Philly that way a few times, and it's pretty nice...and it's busy.
A private company recently introduced service in Florida with semi-high speed trains that runs from Miami to Orlando. That seems to be pretty popular as well. And some cities (New York and Chicago, for example) have an extensive network of commuter rail.
I've used the NY subway before. It's the kind of thing you'd want for all cities. I've passed through Chicago and saw the trams, but didn't get to go one. They looked great at least. Most US cities I've been to have just felt like sprawl where driving is only option. Often where it seamed there was no real centre to go to anyway.
The US is so big it's amazing it doesn't have good fast rain connecting it all. A wave of rail building could do wonders. Cities without a centre would end up growing one at the rail hub. You could then de-car that centre, make it somewhere to go.
Well, keep in mind some of those cities are thousands of miles apart - New York to Los Angeles is about 2,800 miles (4,500 km). While I believe we should have a robust rail network, it's tough to justify it for that kind of distance given that planes are so much faster.
In my mind we'd have a three tiered approach - cities would have subways, busses, and commuter rail options. Nearby cities, say, less than 500 miles (800 km) apart, would have high speed rail connections. Longer trips would be handled by airliners. Because, lets face it, no one is going back to land transportation between New York and LA - even at 250 km/hr, a train would take 18 hours - and that's nonstop, whereas a flight is 6 hours. Few people are going to be willing to triple the travel time like that.
So, in my world we'd have a cohesive transportation plan that focuses each mode for what they are best at. I'd still want a good nationwide rail network as a fallback (in case of, say, a 9/11 type event where the airline network is shut down), but I think it has to be bigger than just rail.
This would reduce the issue of a busy air traffic network as well, by removing short haul flights in favor of trains.
All sounds good and a real improvement to now.
I read the article and clicked through their own reporting on range anxiety: https://cleantechnica.com/2023/07/16/is-range-anxiety-really-worth-all-the-angst/
it seems to me that this screams out for better shared transportation - If I'm going less than 6 miles, I'd much prefer an Uber or easy subway ride or the like to owning a car at all. However, that's something government would actually have to fund and do something rather than just passing rules on to other people to make happen.
That minor rant aside - I still maintain that the 37 miles per day is a commute and going out to lunch. If we actually wanted to have people change habits in a really useful way - it'd be to start incentivising / mandating telework where possible - stop all the unnecessary car traffic of any kind. You know what's more environmentally friendly than ZEV vehicles? No vehicle (use).
That all said - most people I know buy vehicles to solve as close to 100% of their needs, not 95.1% - because vehicles are so expensive. The range anxiety haven't been about the daily commute for like a decade - even the 87 mile leaf did that fine and most anyone I've ever talked to was perfectly OK if they had the leaf JUST to drive to work and back in the summer / nice weather. Very few people buy a car like that though, because they need to get through bad weather or carry more stuff or people or tow or ...
And then there's the all american road trip. Roughly once a month I go 180 miles one way on a quick trip to see family. They don't have a car charger setup anywhere. I'm not at all sure if they can run an extension cord out, but then I'm on slow charging, and I also drive around while I'm there (unless I asked to use their car for all trips). I'm usually there for a couple days and come back. I have to get gas on each trip. This is not in reality if I had a leaf. If I had a more expensive car it's do-able, but I still would be anxious till there's more "top up" points. I go by probably 20 gas stations I notice on the trip, and there's probably 100+ more within 2-3 miles from the route I take. I know of one charging station.
They have an answer in the article
Yes - plan you trip around your car. I mean, sure, but harkening back to needing Trip Ticks like in the early 1990s isn't exactly a "towards the future" sort of vibe. And they're right - a lot of it is vibe.
Yes, get some therapy and Xanax and you too can love the EV.
Ok, but ranting about the sheer stupidity and patronizing nature of the article around range anxiety over - back to the road trip. Many people like to drive to their vacations to save money, especially if they have 3+ people going and would have to also rent a car at the other end of a flight. My next trip is a 900 mile trip over 2 days. With ICE I literally just put it in my GPS and go - no issues because I can stop and get gas ANYWHERE. We're just NOT THERE yet with chargers, and even with superchargers, we're talking going from a 10 minute break to get gas, grab a snack and use the restroom to more like 30 minutes waiting for the car. I don't have issues with planning lunch or dinner around that, IF I could be sure there was a super charger where it makes sense to break.
The thing that's stupid is it's not "range anxiety" really, I have to worry about getting gas and finding a gas station. We just have gas stations already built out and getting gas is a 5 minute process to get another 360+ miles of range. If the charging was close to that to add 360+ miles of range, no one would blink an eye, but instead, it's 30 minutes to add maybe 100 miles of range - which leads to making trips take much longer in many cases. The other anxiety inducing thing is if you run out of gas, AAA can bring you 2 gallons to get you to a station. I haven't heard about the equivalent for EVs yet.
The important thing is - talking down to people isn't going to get them to listen to you. Telling people they shouldn't worry about their yearly or more often road trips because normally they're driving to work and back isn't a great sales pitch really. If I have to rent an ICE car 2 times a year for a road trip, that's at least $1,000 each time, which itself pays for a lot of gas, or 3 new car payments (for most people). It doesn't make people think EVs are cheaper.
Me feeling this way is a problem, because I do think EVs are a good thing, and I really want one, but not for massively more than a direct replacement of my existing ICE car, and not if I have to also maintain an ICE car for trips. One car is cheaper than two to keep going no matter how frugal the second car is.
That is my biggest concern also. I need 500 miles on a charge. I live 200 miles from my family, and will often drive up and back in a day for holidays and birthdays. But I also will drive a state or two away to visit extended family, I am not going attempt those drives with 250 mile range.
Have you looked at where charging stations are? Chances are, there’s a station somewhere along your route. And even if there isn’t, you’re going to someone house? Bring a portable charger and plug in the car.
There are very few places you can’t drive without being able to find a charger if you plan ahead a little.
Edit: Not to mention, how often are you making these drives? You talk as if it’s happening every day, but that’s half your waking day in driving.
This is always the point in the EVangelizing where the person doing it loses me.
The whole point of the objection, whatever it is, is that it's a way the person uses their car that happens often enough, to them, that it's a concern. A rebuttal based on "well how important is that, really?" isn't an argument against an ICE at that point, it's essentially just an argument saying, "You're wrong for wanting that.", which is basically presuming that one knows better than that person what that person finds to be important.
Even if they're only making this drive once a year, it's clearly important to them that the vehicle they own is capable of handling it at least as smoothly as an ICE. If an EV can't do that, it's just a shortcoming of EVs for that person, end of story. It doesn't make the EV suddenly immune to that criticism to suggest they just not make that trip or rent a vehicle that can do it when that time comes. It's a way they are currently using their vehicle, and a way in which they want to use whatever vehicle they own in the future. If a certain vehicle can't do that, it's a shortcoming that is worth noting and accepting.
If I make a drive across country once a year, is that something I should base my car purchase around? That’s about as silly as purchasing a truck because I intend to move in the next 10 years.
The point isn’t “how important is that” it’s “why are you not thinking of alternatives.”
No one said you have to make a 500 mile drive in a single go, but the constraint is being put there artificially. It would be like me saying “I cant get behind an ICE because a single tank only takes me 400 miles and I need to drive 500 miles once a year.”
And the other aspect, is that if you’re truly unable to find a route that handles charging? Rent a vehicle that handles that edge case. Just like you rent a moving truck instead of buying a moving truck because you’re going to move.
You're still missing the point. Are you really claiming that most people who go on long trips once a year haven't thought about renting or flying? Or that they're unaware of those alternatives? They're reasonable alternatives even with an owned ICE car - do you want to throw 3,000+ miles on your car vs a rental?
Presumably there's reasons they drive an owned car vs renting or flying already.
Look, let me try an analogy I've beaten my head against for a decade or more - do you use Windows on your computer? Why haven't you switched to Linux? It's better in almost every way - it's free, it's user controlled, it doesn't break / have patches forcing reboots monthly, it runs on older computers better for longer, etc etc etc. Now think of why you (probably) don't use Linux. It doesn't run Microsoft Office. It doesn't run your games. It doesn't do whatever that Windows does. Is my response that - "well, you shouldn't play games on your PC, you should have a game console, or rent time via remote control, or just you know - why are playing games important" actually compelling to you? Now apply that to cars and driving long distances.
Modern EVs charge in less than 15 minutes so.. it’s really not longer than a gas stop, at least not in any situation I’ve been in and I own two gas vehicles and an ev. Like I literally get 200+ miles of range in 15 minutes. Your numbers are just way way way off.
And what in the world are you talking about. 1000 to rent a car two times a year? Where the fuck are you renting from?
I’m sorry but you’re just really really really misinformed here. There are plenty of aaa charging services if you get stuck, but you’re not gonna get stuck cuz EVs are good about letting you know if you’re gonna be in trouble.
I don’t really want to spend the time to refute every point in your post, just seriously, go try renting a modem ev (non-American, American EVs are terrible)
I'd say the same about yours.
Maybe those binders are correct for you in your EV but not for me with my ICE.
I've never needed 15 minutes to get gas. As long as there's an open pump, if all I'm doing is gassing up, it's 5 minutes, if that.
And I'm getting 400 miles of range for that time.
And I can do that literally anywhere in the entire US. If a town is big enough to have a red light, it'll probably have a gas station within 5 miles.
I like that EVs are a thing, and that they're becoming even more of a thing as time goes on. Someday I'm sure I'll own one too.
But if I need a new car in the next 5 years, I'm not even considering one, and most of the reasons for that are reasons that proponents are acknowledging, even as they're trying to be patronizing and condescending and shaming anyone who points out valid drawbacks.
It's not like people are saying EVs are bad, just that the reality of the situation right now is that, for many, deciding to switch over to one from an ICE will mean, in some ways, changing the ways they live around the limitations and necessities that come with the EV, and that for many, these changes tip the scales away from the EV.
People don't want to accept the changes and added concerns that come with making that switch, and that doesn't make them wrong or stupid or bad.
When EV infrastructure gets to the point where owning, fueling, and servicing one is as cheap, quick, effective, and ubiquitous as owning, fueling, and servicing an ICE vehicle then I'm sure many, many more people will be convinced. Until then, it's less a matter of needing to dispel rumors and more a matter of the technology needing to catch up to the level of ICE.
on road trips that's all your doing? You're not going in for a bathroom break and to buy snacks? Somehow I highly doubt that and even if you are you are in the minority. There's a reason they're called rest stops out on long stretches of roads, they're not just for gas.
you haven't pointed out any drawbacks, you've just spread a bunch of incorrect FUD.
This is also incorrect, unless you are towing things. Like I said before. This is just a bunch of FUD.
edit: i just reread your initial comment. you literally bring up getting a snack and using the restroom. ahaha you can't even keep your own story straight.
What the fuck are you talking about? I never said that.
Maybe learn to read a username before you cock off.
I only know what people tell me about EVs, I've never had one. You're the first and only person to claim I can charge an EV in 15 minutes. Where can I do that?
The last time I rented a car was in the UK about 2 months ago. It was for exactly 1 week, which is actually a little light for most of my trips in the US, and cost about 1000 GBP before insurance for an automatic (I don't drive stick). In the US, when I've looked up car rentals just now, a fullsize SUV for my road trip coming up, return to the same place, was 1,303.99 before insurance. A Midsize that we'd just squeeze into like my owned Outback was $770 before insurance (on Kyak.com - feel free to point me to better places to search). I'd say that's averaging $1,000.
I'm aware I didn't specify the ICE cars I'm talking about in this post, that was in another one. I'll admit, if I was going to want a Tesla 3 size car (which doesn't work for me for many other reasons), I could rent an ICE for more like $540 before insurance. The reason a Tesla3 size car doesn't work is my road trips are 3-5 people, with luggage for a week or more, plus their hobby large backpacks. We also have a crosstrek and we literally packed it full for 3 people, and the Outback was uncomfortably full with 5 people. So I'd figure I'd need the cargo capacity of a full SUV for 5 and midsize SUV for 3.
The irony of using a Bolt EV in the accompanying photograph. A car with some of the slowest DC fast charging, and a battery that’s been reduced to 80% capacity for three years by the company who makes it.
I'd say that just reinforces their point that even "bad" EVs don't have significant issues with range. But yeah, a bit weird to emphasise it.
It's actually a great example.
Bolt has about 250 mile range and it's great for everything not too far, and even ok for infrequent road trips.
And your claim about 80% reduction is false and misleading.
Why do you hate EV's?
I own a fucking Bolt. I don’t hate EVs. It’s difficult to get the advertised range when GM insists on binding it with a software update that prevents charging above 80% as a workaround while they are still sorting out their battery recall years later.
https://electrek.co/2023/06/14/bolt-battery-recall-diagnostics/
That's a precationary limit because of a pending recall. The batteries aren't degraded to 80%.
You can't use it above 80%, the reason you can't doesn't make a difference for your ability to drive the car.
Right and for newer vehicles there is a couple of 2020 Bolts and a 2022 Bolt EUV for low $20k or under in my area. If I travel a little bit away from my area I have found 2017 Bolts for $15k.
As mentioned they’re not great for road tripping because of their slow L3 charge speeds, but perfect for me to use for my commute or local-ish running. It or a EUV will probably be my replacement for my ‘08 Rabbit whenever it goes, but I only put on about 3k miles a year on my car soooo it might be a while. I also need to see if i can put a family of 5 in one (reverse car seat, booster, and older kiddo in the back). I think they’ll do it.
Why aren't plug in hybrids getting pushed harder?
You get the benefit of the vast gasoline network but you also get the maintenance of both ICE and electric systems.
Plus carrying around the weight of both the batteries and the ICE with its tank of fuel.
And yet they are still generally more efficient than ICE vehicles.
Of course! EVs are more efficient again, however, in part because they can replace the space and weight of the engine and fuel tank with batteries.
On paper they are the best of both worlds. In practice it is the worst of both worlds. Yes range is no issue but you need to go to gasstations and still need to charge your car most places you go if you want to reap the benefits. I honestly prefer non plugin hybrids to plugin hybrids in this regard. But i much rather bite the bullet and drive electric, even if i have to stop and charge on roadtrips. The increase in comfort of electric driving is worth the downside of longer traveltime to me.
And that is from a drivers comfort point of view. Maintenance is the same story. Having all the downsides of a combustion engine in a car that could have been an electric car.
Because then car companies have to maintain two systems and the complexity increases. I'm very happy with my plug-in hybrid. I'm running 100% electric in my day-to-day driving and on longer trips the amount of gas used varies. If I'm careful then I can go a year without a trip to the gas station. I wish more companies went this route, but they want to keep their profit margins up. I'm just waiting for the flood of cheap EVs that will eventually come in when more and more companies enter the market. Chinese EV companies are looking to enter other markets and this should drive prices down, but legislators are proposing tariffs to keep prices up.
Does the unused gas not cause problems after that long, or is the moving vehicle enough to keep it happy?
I drive a chevy volt which includes measures that protect against that, including burning off gas if it's been too long. In fact, I could've gone more than a year without a trip to the gas station, but the limit for gas to sit in the tank is about a year.
That's cool, didn't know they did that. Thanks!
Right, they seem like the gateway car to ride people over until a full EV and the charging networks are more competitive. I would love an EV but they just aren't convenient enough for my work travel schedule. A plug-in hybrid would solve that concern and allow for my non-work driving around town to be electric.
I’m very interested in why an ev wouldn’t work for your work travel schedule.
If you have a place to charge at home, I wonder if you have dated information. I agree this was true 5-10 years ago, but EV is a pretty clear winner now
The Japanese are still pushing them. Probably fine for some people but they do add a lot of cost and complexity to the drivetrain. EV reliability stems from simplicity. No pistons, no timing chains or valves, no torque converters, etc. etc.
This article doesn't really touch on the biggest issue of getting into an EV - the price tag. I mean, $26k to get into an entry-level model? I paid $11k for my SUV, and the only reason I could afford that was due to a pay-out from the company that totaled my previous vehicle. Show me a used EV with towing and storage capacity more in the range of $6k that I can expect to drive for twenty years with basic maintenance and you might get me interested.
Beyond that, they claim that an EV is cheaper to maintain over the years? OK I've been driving my used SUV for 15 years now and I've spent less than a grand on replacing parts (not including stuff like tires that are going to be replaced on any vehicle). My previous vehicle was driven for 24 years and cost even less to maintain because it didn't have 4WD. It looks like within these time periods I would have expected to replace EV batteries several times (most estimates put battery lifetime between 8-15 years), and how much would that have cost? I understand that most people can't be bothered to learn how to perform even the most basic maintenance tasks and believe that you need to buy a new car every 5 years, but I would like to see realistic maintenance estimates for those of us who don't treat our vehicles like a piece of disposable tupperware.
You got your current car for 11k but expext an EV to cost you 6k. Why is that? Shouldn't you expect the EV to also cost in the same range as 11k to make it a fair comparison?
In terms of battery replacement, have you calculated after how many miles the battery replacement becomes "free" because of gas savings? This changes for everyone based on their electricity prices and whether they have solar.
Because I got the current SUV from a dealership with all the attached mark-ups and fees, at a time when similar models were selling used for about half that cost. However because I had the money available I was willing to splurge on getting exactly the one I was looking for. Also, an EV is not an SUV, and certainly not 4WD with the stronger frame to support off-road use, so it shouldn't cost as much. I actually bought my wife's car, a 2006 Murano with 4WD, for $6000 from a dealership, so even that has more capability and probably more cargo space that a typical EV. My baseline is how much vehicle I can get for that price range.
[Edit] Sorry... as far as "free" is concerned, well that never really happens, does it? Yes I could get solar installed on my house, but that costs as much as the car and wouldn't likely get paid off before the car itself fell apart or was hopelessly obsolete. Since COVID I only have to drive in to the office two days a week now, so I'd be lucky if I even put 3500 miles a year on my SUV now, which is around $750/year in gas. A conservative estimate on solar installation is around $15,000 which means I would have to drive the EV and be completely powered by my own solar charger for 20 years to pay off the solar panels, and in that amount of time the solar panels themselves would likely fail from age or hail and need to be replaced (although hopefully the technology would have improved by then). Also note that because of the dense trees in my neighborhood, I'm not even confident I have enough of my roof in direct sunlight to power the house itself. Yeah it's something I've looked in to, and while I could save a lot of money by building the solar installation myself, I'm still not sure I could get enough power even if I cover every inch of roof that sees Summer sunlight for more than a couple hours. Free 'gas' just isn't going to happen unless I cut down my own trees, and convince several neighbors to also cut down theirs.
You have not considered some aspects. You have concluded that solar is only used for charging the EV and that it doesn't power your house. Realistically nobody does that. Your solar beakeven should be converted to calculate how much time it takes to save 15k from both your electricity bill + gas savings. Then the whole equation becomes,
battery replacement cost + solar cost = (annual electricity bill + fuel cost) * x number of years
Only then can you know if the breakeven period is a save or a loss.
Ignoring solar, what's the breakeven like when you charge the vehicle from grid? (With night time prices if you have such a tarrif/discount)
Actually solar powering my house was my first consideration. I'm already dealing with an electric company that didn't think it was odd when they turned off the power to my house and the meter kept running (my typical monthly usage is around 4000kWh which breaks down to over 5000 watts of solar panels and roughly 300 square feet of roof space that isn't blocked by trees) so I'm trying to find an electrician to replace the wires between the meter and the house. The assumption here is that the wiring has a ground leak -- the more power I pull, the faster the leak, which ramps up my bill quickly. Meanwhile I've been considering installing solar panels on my house to offset some of that usage. Even if I'm really only using half that amount of power, that's still a LOT of required solar panels and as I said there's not a lot of exposed roof space available. My calculations weren't including trying to recharge an EV because I don't have any numbers on how much power that would pull.
Basically where I'm sitting, about 2/3 of my roof is blocked from sunlight by trees on the East and South which is great for keeping the house cool, but not so great for solar panels. If I was trying to supply half of my current electrical usage I would need roughly 12 square feet of good sun throughout the day, but my Southern roof only has that much exposed for 4-6 hours in the middle of Summer. In the Winter one of the trees to the South of me will lose its leaves, but the other tree to the South and all the trees on the East side are massive evergreens that block the sun all year. I'm having a hard time getting the numbers to add up just to supply my house with power, I just don't see any way to also recharge a vehicle (let alone two). It's still a project on my radar though and something I really want to get in place since I do use quite a bit of power here.
Oh, and that $15,000 installation price was for more typical homes that use less than 250kWh/month. Obviously I am nowhere near that.
And to answer your last question... I can't find any info on whether the city offers discount for at-home charging, but they do provide several level 2 chargers around the city at a rate of $1/hour, which seems fairly reasonable? Hard to say as I have no idea how long an EV take to recharge or how far you can drive on a 1-hour charge so I don't have enough info to make a reasonable comparison there.
A used market is mostly a matter of time. There just hasn’t been enough EVs available for long enough to have much of a used market
The older EV models currently in the used market should be avoided. They are mostly compliance cars like the original Fiat 500e and the VW eGolf — slow charging only, small worn out batteries, and little range. Or they are first generation Leaf EVs with failing batteries that are out of warranty or cannot be replaced due to eternal back order at Nissan.
The 2017-2019 Bolts can be a good buy if they’ve already had their batteries replaced under warranty/recall. Decent range and amenities, though some find the earlier model seats uncomfortable.
This next generation of used EVs (cars shipping as new right now) will be great — longer range and faster charging.
Related…
https://electrek.co/2024/01/04/top-ten-most-popular-used-evs-2023/
Agreed, and there's a LOT of usage in my area so I would expect there to be a decent used market. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be there yet. I know in time EVs will be as cheap and common as ICE vehicles are today, but personally I feel like currently they are still only available to people with a LOT of disposable cash.
You’re not going to get any ev that’s good at towing, so get that off your list right now. In regards to used EVs for 6k, they’re all over the place. Just look for Nissan leafs or Priuses.
That’s until it’s at like 85-95% capacity. Ev batteries will last for decades no problem. And if you had that little maintenance on your car then you’re just not taking care of it. Oil literally would cost over a thousand dollars just by itself, so if you’re not replacing the oil you’re irreparably damaging your vehicle. (12k miles a year, replace minimum every 6k miles unless you’ve done an oil test and have a custom timeline, $30-50 each time, so $100 a year minimum on just one thing).
I’m sorry but your numbers just outright do not add up at all. You clearly either abused your car and actually didn’t maintain it, or you maintained it and have no clue the true cost.
What I do is I have an extra truck for towing, which I rarely need to use - but it's not cheap to do this, and many people can't or won't. But even then, having a "good for commuting only" vehicle is an even harder sell. I know people who do this, but that can be hard to hit IMHO. While all you need and all you miss with towing is... towing, a "good commuter car" might well be something that is small, 2WD, and doesn't really have cargo space or back seats. Many people however have young kids (need pretty large car seats), or want to take 3-4 people on trips, or want to go shopping for stuff and minimize the needed delivery fees, or have bad weather and want AWD/4WD. It's easy to get a truck or SUV that does all of that AND towing, but it's hard to get an economical EV that does all of that minus towing.
Ahhh but you have to remember: if you want anything that an EV doesn't do better than ICE, you're wrong for wanting it and should change your life until that's no longer something you want, at which point you'll see that an EV is perfect for you.
The estimates I saw for battery life were talking about replacement time, not just ranging to a minimal capacity. Even discussions I've read on reddit have basically had most people stating that if you buy a used EV the batteries would likely need replaced. I don't have anything to go on for realistic expectations except the statements from people who have owned an EV.
I've been using full synthetic in my SUV, it's good for 20k miles or more so I replace it every couple years at a cost of around $60. So around $450 so far? I changed oil in my old car a little less frequently with plain dino oil, so that was maybe $400 through a lifetime of around 300k miles.
And sure, there are minor costs like replacing the spark plugs every decade, I spent $80 on a new power steering pump for the SUV and I need to pick up a new coolant thermostat soon. I don't remember if I replaced the belt on my truck or my wife's car, and they get new batteries every 5+ years as needed. Oh and I had to replace the transmission on the old car, that cost all of $250 to pick up from a junk yard. So yeah, there's a few other things I didn't add in. Now what kind of maintenance has to be done on an EV, and what kind of prices are you looking at for replacement parts?
Maybe you are lucky with your car, and know how to maintain yourself. We spent already 3000$ on repairs on our 2010 car and we have it for only 5 years. And there is more to be done (dampers, belts, corrosion on exhaust...). Even with knowledge and equipment (which I do not have) engines are complicated to maintain, at least here in europe with our anti pollution regulations, older motors are more robust but are now banned from cities. EV is a good solution for city/suburbs people with small range needs as less maintainance is needed. Better solution is bike and trains...
My SUV is a 2004, it has stuff on it that I have no idea what the function is supposed to be. However the basics are still there, they have plugs or ignition coils, belts, a cooling system, brakes, and power steering. There are various sensors for the computer that can be hard to find but fairly easy to replace once you locate them. The worst of the problems haven not changed -- parts that are difficult or nearly impossible to get to, and parts that have rusted in place. Some things are just worth letting the professionals fight with, but other things I'll do myself to save that $200 minimum fee that the shops charge. At one point I had a shop replace one of the front axle bearing for me, that cost about $300. Then I started having other things go out and after doing some reading realized the mileage on the SUV was high enough that these parts were due to be replaced anyway... for another $300 and about 2 hours of my time (mostly figuring out how everything came apart) I replaced the other axle bearing plus both of the front axles and a couple other smaller items. If you have the patience and some tools, there are plenty of videos online now showing how to replace this stuff, just start with something small (belts and ignition coils are actually easy) and you might surprise yourself!
That’s because people are obsessed with long ranges. You don’t need long range. EVs last plenty fine, even with reduced distance. Undecided with Matt Ferrell has covered this a lot.
You’re damaging your car. You should be changing your oil at minimum every 6k miles. 20k is ridiculous. 6k is the number for full synthetic, 3-4k is for non synthetic. Project farm covers this and does a ton of tests to show you why.
$0 dollars. Windshield washer fluid is all I’ve had to touch. On our towing truck I had to replace a gas line from gas destroying the line. Gas vehicles are soooo much more expensive in every single way. There’s a ton of studies on this dude.
One of our friends we visit on a regular basis is a 90-minute drive away (a little over 100 miles each way), and we typically stay for about 4 hours before heading home. Anything outside of town is going to be at least a 45-minute drive each way and when we go into Denver we're talking over an hour. And since I live only six miles away from the mountains we tend to drive around up there quite a lot which can easily lead to a 2-3 hour drive on some pretty substantial grades. But let's just pretend for a moment that I don't care about range, and I grab the only used EV I see within my range -- a Nissan Leaf with a listed range of 84 miles. That means most mountain trips are out because Estes Park is the only place that might have a charging station. But what about visiting our friends? If I fully charge the EV at home before we leave, I'll still have to stop at least twice during the trip to fully recharge. Are we talking about the addition of a few minutes to my trip, or are we looking at adding hours to an already long drive? Range matters when you live in an area where everything is spread out.
On the other hand, my wife rarely drives her car outside of town and is never used for long trips -- so THAT is something we have discussed replacing with an EV when the time comes and the prices are more reasonable.
You DO understand that some synthetic oils are actually made to take you more than 6000 miles, right? Take a look at Amsoil, many people have tested it and sent their oil to labs for testing. This stuff stands up to real-world testing. As far as concerns about permanent damage -- well I've put 120k miles on this vehicle so far and it still purrs along without any sign of trouble. And seriously, nearly 300k on my previous V8 engine (it had 106k when I bought it and I rolled the odometer twice before selling it) and it was only just starting to blow some white smoke when I first started it up. That's with plain old Valvoline dino oil for most of its life although I did upgrade to the high-mileage synthetic blend in probably the last 100k, and only doing oil changes about every 20-25k. And that thing was a racing engine, I could do 70mph in first gear, so I never treated it lightly. Sorry you've had such bad luck, but I'll stand by what has worked for me.
So yeah, there's fewer moving parts on an EV, and fewer things that can break down. I can still drive my ICE for massively less money. Just looking at the used market in my area, anything large enough that I would even consider driving (because I won't risk my wife's life in a damn subcompact car) start at over $30k, and we won't even talk about Teslas. If you're going to make an honest comparison of maintenance costs (suspension parts wear out on every vehicle, but ICE parts are of course not directly relatable to EV engine parts) I can easily buy a used vehicle and drive it for years without even approaching half the cost of a used EV.
Even the price to gas up versus recharging is greatly debated. Sure you can get some great rates if you always charge up from home and your local power company offers off-peak subsidies, but for me even driving to work mean recharging during the day to get back home, and those charging stations have a premium price. Just checking google for research in the last couple years, the articles are pretty evenly split over which one is cheaper, but many of those were comparing the best electric prices charging at home to some of the worst gasoline prices at $4/gallon. Unless you already have a full solar installation on your house, comparing apples to apples in refueling costs doesn't seem to show any clear advantage in either direction, so it's not like driving an EV is going to "pay for itself"... at least not yet.
I'm not throwing all of this out here to try and suggest that EVs are a terrible idea and nobody should ever consider them. For most people who make short trips and drive in reasonably flat areas, I'm sure they are getting past the point of status symbol and are starting to become a great solution. But for people like me who regularly travel long distances, needs to carry construction materials or tow heavy trailers for various projects, and doesn't mind doing the occasional repair at home, an EV is still an insanely expensive prospect. I mean $30k is more than the total I have spent on all of my vehicles AND my wife's vehicles combined in nearly 40 years. Yes I'm keeping an eye on things because EVs are definitely the way we are heading and the infrastructure is getting built up pretty quickly to support them, but for my own needs they are just not there yet.
Yes they aren't cheap up front but the ROI is good.
The curse and trap of being poor - or Vimes law of boots. If you only have $5,000 to get a vehicle, doesn't matter if your ROI is bad over time, your choice is bad ROI and a vehicle, or no vehicle. I really hope used EVs start to get parity with used ICEs, but I bet that's at least a decade if not two away.
Are you comparing cost of used ICE Vs new EV?
I'd prefer to compare used to used, but looking around online at what's available in my area, the cost of most used EVs appears to start around $15,000 for these tiny compact cars that would never be useful to me. The cheapest was a Nissan Leaf for $7500 with a listed range of 84 miles -- hell we couldn't even visit many of our friends in that distance! The more reasonable sized cars (at least judging by the pictures) like a Kia Niro or maybe a Nissan Ariya which have ranges over 200 miles start around $30,000 and go up very quickly from there. So yeah, even comparing used prices puts these vehicles way outside my price range.
Just adding to that, what required maintenance can you do on an EV?
I can take care of most of the basics like fluid and brake pad changes on my IC car. On an EV tyres are a given, but is there specialised maintenance work that I can't do myself?
There’s pretty much just tires, brakes, fluids. That’s it. That’s why they’re so great. Oh and your brakes last a lot longer because most of the braking is done with regen (think electric engine braking).
To expand, the only fluid that needs replacing is the washer fluid. There is no oil needed EVs, and most don't have transmissions, they are direct drive from the motors. The oil in the motor doesn't need to be changed because it's a sealed system.
So that leaves brakes, which aren't used nearly as much due to regenerative braking like you said. And of course tires because that's just normal wear from use. And the cabin air filter every couple years.
EVs have less than half the parts of an ICE vehicle simply because most of the engine and transmission components just aren't there. There is simply less there that can break or wear out.
Battery longevity will depend largely on the battery tech and quality the manufacturer uses, and how good their Battery Management System is. Batteries wear mostly due to high use and how you manage charging. Fast charging all the time will wear them faster than charging overnight at home for instance. I keep my Model 3 battery between 60-80% charge and that's way more than I need for daily driving. When going on a trip I fully charge the night before and there are a ton of chargers on all the long distance trips I've made. It reroutes to account for busy chargers automatically and I rarely need to think about it.
Good points. One note I’ll make is tires. They can wear out faster simply because of how much torque the motor(s) give them. As with anything, if you have a lighter foot off the line then they’ll last longer. If you want that EV power to get out front at every stop then you’ll wear through them 2x as fast. Good news is that tire manufacturers are prototyping new everyday road tires made to handle higher torque for EVs.
Brake fluid is still very hygroscopic and should be replaced every couple of years. Also there's fluid in the transaxle(s) but I'm not sure if it needs to be replaced.
Seems like at the very least it would require a different set of tools and knowledge. I can do pretty much everything down to completely tearing down and rebuilding an engine so replacing ball joints or suspension A-frames is easy for me, but I expect that sort of thing to be outside of most people's knowledge. Even so, there's quite a lot that anybody can do to maintain their current vehicle without needing any special knowledge they can't learn in five minutes. What can we do ourselves on an EV to keep the batteries and motor in good running condition, and how would we even know that there's a fault that needs addressed? I can't imagine a cheap EV having a full range of sensors installed, and yet on an ICE you can easily hear or feel when something isn't right with the engine.
Read the user manual that comes with your car, it explains that in great detail. There's practically no maintenance to be done, anyway
They don't really need them like ICE do. OBDII gives all the details on your battery that you could possibly want, there are cheapo sensors on the like 2 other failable parts
There's simply a lot LESS to go wrong on an EV, maintenance is very different once you get one
That's good to hear! I keep watching how things are progressing, some day we'll all make the switch but at the moment I still need the capacity of an SUV to carry construction materials and the ability to tow my 20' trailer with loads up to 6000 pounds. Somebody once told me that there's no reason to own a personal vehicle when I can just ride a bicycle or take the bus everywhere, it took me awhile to stop laughing.
You guys are allowed to leave work?
Ehhh. For the range-anxious until charging infra catches up, there can be PHEVs.
I've been excited to have my next vehicle be a BEV for a while now, but having rented a Tesla while on vacation in Michigan (where the infra wasn't exactly good for it) I understand why people might have reservations about jumping in with both feet. Also now that I've interacted with the vehicles and got a better idea of Tesla as a company, I won't be buying one.
For the moment, given my use cases (I periodically have to drive between western WA and central UT) my next vehicle will likely be a PHEV unless there are real breakthroughs in EVs (fuel cells? swappable battery standards?) or charging infra where I need it.
I have to commute one way 250 kms with one settlement on the way (75 km from one end) for work. There are not many EVs now that I would be comfy making that trip right now (more so after the battery ages a few years, in winter etc.) but their are some. In some countries the range is fine, in cities the range is fine but where I am the range is the major limiting factor. Please don't call market demands "fear mongering" just give me more range.
I don't need any super acceleration or a top speed 2x the speed limit, I want range.
I mean, worst case, just buy and bring a gas generator with you if you think you are going to be reaching those limits. With an EV, anyone can have a plug-in hybrid (albeit much less convenient).
how about evs arnt the fucking solution and build some fucking decent infrastructure
can we just start calling it tardtalk
Range anxiety is basically a myth or at least a real anxiety masquerading as range anxiety. Who hasn't been out on the boonies somewhere late at night running out of gas and wondering if you were going to make it to a gas station ... the real anxiety is refuel anxiety. As soon as universal fast electric charging stations are ubiquitous this "range anxiety" will suddenly disappear. Most ICE cars only have around a 300-400 mile range tops (unless maybe the hybrids) and that is never talked about. It's not range that is the problem.
Heck 95% of my driving would be more than ok with 50 mile range if I could charge at work and it only took a few minutes to charge. An ultra capacitor car would likely fit this bill.
Well dang ... unpopular opinion I guess.
But I stand by what I said. I just want an EV thats cheap with fast & ubiquitous charging. Give me those 3 things and even with crappy range and I'd dump my ICE car like yesterday.
How about lithium fires burning down peoples houses then?
Is this a concern with electric vehicles? I haven't heard of this being an epidemic that we even need to worry about.