r/The_Donald now on Lemmy (edit: not anymore)
It was banned on Reddit because it is racist, hatefull and spread Conspiracies.
In my new community I expect the exclution of racist communities. It is easy now with defederation. Nazis can do whatever they want on their instances, but the instances I want to be part of should not amplify their shit and flush it into our timelines.
The instance-admin of !thedonald@sh.itjust.works did not reply to my message. Big instances seem not to defederate with them.
The new TD may not be a success, the point is not to give Nazis a platform like it is happening now. Fans of TD are racists.
Where are the instances that show face against racism?
edit: to contact the admins: @donut @TheDude @smorks
edit2: @TheDude deleted the community :)
Definitely better to just block the community in other instances instead of total defederation. Admins can do so pretty easily. I know beehaw is usually pretty proactive about this kind of stuff.
And yeah...fuck Donald Trump. He's fucked up the US so hard and has put our country into such a mess. I hope they nail his ass straight to jail.
Seriously. Defederation should be a last resort against spammers and outright attacks on other instances, not because you dont agree with a single community.
Historically this group has been responsible for an absolute shitload of spam and outright attacks.
I was doxxed by them. They had links to a discord group that included my full name, address, email, and phone number. There was a whole list, it's one of the first reasons they were quarantined. There was a comment that read "anyone with spare bullets can send them here".
This is a lot more than "I simply don't agree with that community". They are trash who will trash up any platform they can reach.
Sounds like a great place to practice OPSEC. But sucks if you get doxxed for real. I hope you're safe.
And it was absolutely a case of negligent opsec.
I suspect what happened is that I posted pictures on reddit that I also posted on Facebook. A reverse image search links my reddit account to my facebook account, and therefore a real name and name of city. With that, the rest is public information.
It was a wakeup call that the internet contains the best and the worst of humanity, and the worst will come after you at the earliest opportunity.
100% agree
Also, it should be noted that this 'The_Donald' community is literally just one user making posts.
Just blocking the community doesn't prevent the users in that community from harassing minorities and generally spreading disinformation and hate. It's offloading extra moderation work to every instance who federates with them. Unless that instance is also okay with fascists interacting in bad faith, of course.
It could be extra moderation work, but I think it's a bad line to cross to assume everyone on an instance is guilty before they've actually done something bad.
Bad comments can come from anywhere though and mods still have to remove them.
No one is saying everyone in the instance is guilty; people are saying that the instance is going to become toxic to the point where it becomes hard to tell.
If you are in that instance and don't want to tied to this rhetoric, talk to your admin about banning the Donald.
Defederation is basically treating them like so. I mean, I get it, moderation is hard AF, but pre-emptive defederation when we haven't even seen a ton of toxicity from sh.itjust.works yet is not a good precedent.
You've got a good point. Ultimately every instance is responsible for its users and their behavior. Harassment should not be tolerated.
SIJW needs to make a decision. IMHO it's perfectly fine to say that your instance is not prepared to deal with that kind of shit regardless of how open and accommodating you want to be.
If they believe there's a space for "moderate trump supporters" that's their decision but they are on the hook for any harassment caused by their users.
the users in that community is one person
Yes! Hold the instance owners accountable for allowing that shit to fester and be rebroadcast.
Nine people dining at a table with a Nazi means you have ten Nazis.
This doesn't make any sense.
One of my long time friends is a genuine racist. Am I a racist then too because I'm friends with him even though our views on this topic (and many others) differ quite dramatically?
Depends. Do you just keep your silence or do you call them out when they're being shitty?
I agree that it depends. However such nuance was not included in the original statement. It was absolute
Oh, no, it is absolute: if you say and do nothing, then at best, you're allowing the harm they cause to happen, and at worse reinforcing their behavior.
So yes, if you have racist friends and you sit silently then yes, you're a racist supporter.
I support defederatiom personally because it sends a stronger message from the community. Blocking the community is "I don't want to see this." Defederating is "we don't want to see this."
So, from what I've gathered, many consider the broad lesson learnt from various defederation dramas over on mastodon is that making a genuine attempt to voice concern with the instance admins prior to defederation is almost always the better way to go. It avoids drama and inconvenience while promoting a better ecosystem of cooperation between instance admins and their users.
Obviously at some point when there aren't better options and users need to be protected, use defederation, that's what it's for.
But at this point, I'd try to talk or have our admins talk to the instance admin first.
Exactly, defederation is a nuclear option that affects everyone on both instances.
I agree. It may help send a message that the community isn't tolerated, hopefully getting it removed.
Yeah I guess it does put pressure on instance admins to remove the offending community from their instance. I am just not sure if we want to cross that line into penalizing everybody on an instance for simply being near a bad community though. I also think doing this kind of proactive censorship also forces these people into deeper echo chambers as they get more and more isolated.
Unfortunately, users don't have the option to block entire instances. We need to rely on our moderating overlords to do it for us.
It would be pretty easy to filter content from specific instances in a Lemmy app without Lemmy explicitly supporting it on the server side. I'm working on an Android app right now, as soon as all the basic stuff is done I'll implement it.
Hey all,
This community is being reviewed and will likely be a discussion point to in our Agora community where we discuss about issues like this as a community.
Post that are breaking rules will be removed. If its a regular occurrence so will the TheDonald community. Please continue reporting inappropriate posts and its difficult to maintain visibility on everything that is going on at all times.
Thank you for bringing this to my attention.
Reading through the replies and I have to say ya'll don't take prisoners here. sheesh.
Anyway, I went through went through the community in question and reviewed not only the posts in the community and the comments made by the mods of the community and they weren't aligned with the kind of negativity I want to see on the instance. I have since purged the community and the mods.
Thank you
Thank you for doing so. It is important that we keep what we have here and you doing that is a very important step to that.
Admin management of instances is important.
Fwiw, I hereby volunteer to take the c/ over, and dedicate it to the worship of our disney duck overload, the real Donald.
That's not a joke. The best way to deal with the history behind the subreddit is to defang it. There's always gong to be some troll or someone that actually worships the cheeto trying to make that community somewhere.
If instances preempt that by making communities with that name that are about some other Donald explicitly, it ceases to be able to be weaponized.
And there's a ton of Donalds worthy of a c/. There's the duck, there's the amazing actor, Mr Glover, the other great actors Cheadle, and Sutherland; the McDonald's even.
You pick which Donald you prefer, I'll take the heat from the c/existing.
A noble cause worth pursuing.
I refuse to believe this was a typo.
I may be dyslexic, or duckslexic as the case may be
Thanks for the reply. I've been side-eyeing instances that have open community creation due to how easy it is for bad actors to come and start shit, especially if instance admins aren't constantly on top of things.
As other people in this thread have pointed out, if you allow Nazis to hang out in your bar for long enough, you become a Nazi bar. Given your instance's stated rules against bigotry, I would advocate for proactive action in cases like this. Donald Trump is a champion of racism, sexism, ableism, homophobia, transphobia, and xenophobia - all the things you don't allow. I wouldn't think you'd want a community that champions him as a dogwhistle for all of those things.
Have you considered disabling open community creation and having it be a function of your Agora discussion space?
Blocking open community creation is a mistake and that will be abused down the line. It's also taking power away from users to make Lemmy their own.
First off, community creation is not the problem here. Anybody can make a community called the Donald, the problem are the people that will fill it. Those people are coming here regardless of what community they find themselves in. Blocking community creation doesn't stop them, only actual monitoring of individual users will do it.
There really has to be a line here between combating this kind of toxic hateful bullshit and completely locking down a social media platform so that everything must be pre-scanned and approved before it sees the light of day. Pre-approving content means moderation controls the site directly and obliquely. Before users can even cast a vote, mods can unilaterally and silently strike it down.
I just generally don't care for the overall notion that Lemmy needs to be carefully curated like a garden right out of the gate. Ban the obvious shit like the Donald but there has to be a fundamental acknowledgment that the users, the people, need to have the ability to make the space their own without some council pre-judging them.
I think we can handle these things on a per case bases no? That is just adding another roadblock in having someone interact with the community. If it becomes a problem where someone spams these then yeah I can see the issue.
If they were acting in good faith they would not have started in such trappings. The Donald has an ugly history and it started with harmless memes. Will the next antisemitic tiki-torch march organized on your instance? The next 1/6? It's not worth the risk.
It's also not worth giving them attention to get started. While I mostly agree with the OP, I'd rather they just languish in obscurity for now. Come back to it if/when they become a problem.
Ban, defederate, whatever, I don't mind the method – I do not want this server to have these "people" on our server and able to interact with/see us.
Defederating from an entire instance for one community seems a bit overblown tbh. Blocking would prob be effective enough. That said, beehaw will likely be most proactive in removing td nonsense from its feed
Leave it to Redditors to be OK with everything turning into a Nazi bar.
No it's not that. Lots of us never interacted with that sub. Just block them no need to defederate a while instance
If the instance won't kill the sub, the members of the sub will take over that instance.
I'm seeing some people testing the waters of some subs to see what they can get away with.
so because the donald was on reddit, the entire reddit community was taken over?
At the height of it, yes. It filled up the front page every single day and made the site absolutely reek.
It's what made me stop browsing /r/all, drop off most default subs, and stick to only my subscribed subs. Brigading and spamming is the whole point.
It had a massive impact on the "culture" of the website and would have kept spreading quite effectively if the admins weren't pressured to quarantine it for PR reasons.
Users need the ability to block entire instances. Problem solved.
Dude, it is one community with a whopping 9 subscribers and every single post is sitting at negative.
Y'all need to calm down.
Have you read the linked story? Because it stands exactly counter to what you are saying.
a better analogy is dropping the whole town the nazi bar is in
Yes, the vast universe of Lemmy is like a fucking bar lmao. Great analogy
sh.itjust.works hosts it. They should kick them out.
As soon as they brake rules they absolutely should be banned.
Yeah, defederation isn't an answer to this, or if it is, it's an absolute last resort. First they have to do something wrong, then the instance should ban them, if they fail to act and the community is doing something wrong, then you talk about defederating.
Nah. Users need to ability to block entire instances. It's crazy this is overlooked.
You can on kbin, but I don't know how to on lemmy yet.
I don’t think it’s overlooked. It’s probably just not been implemented yet.
Hm, is it possible the community was already kicked by the instance? I don't find it.
I don't think it is. R/The_Donald was a cancer on Reddit, spreading around and harming other communities. If an instance is willing to tolerate a community like that, I don't see the value of anything else in that instance.
when i was a christian there was this story that would be told that went something like this:
"one day a kid was caught by their parent doing something they knew they weren't supposed to do. it was just a small thing with no real consequences, but it was against the rules of the house and therefore the kid was being disobedient. when the parent confronted the kid about the behavior the kid argued that it was harmless and that it was ok. the parent, seeing an opportunity to teach the kid a lesson, said 'ok' and left. several hours later the parent called the kid into the kitchen where they'd made brownies. the parent offered the kid a brownie who readily accepted. as the kid reached for a brownie the parent stopped them and said 'oh, but first you should know, theres a small piece of cat poop in there, but it's ok, it's just a small piece and i put it in that corner over there'. the kid reeled in disgust and said they didn't want the brownies anymore. 'why?' the parent inquired, 'it's just a small piece and won't hurt anyone as long as they stay away from that small corner'. the kid, then realized the importance of obedience in every way."
total bullshit story, but like all christian bullshit there's a kernel of truth in there. one small nazi ruins the whole batch of brownies.
The problem isn't just that community, it's the people who follow. They're not the kind of people we should try to attract here.
They're probably the same people who were active in fatpeoplehate and other malicious subs too, and it's better not to wait for that to happen. If it doesn't get handled now, their toxicity will likely spill over into other communities
FWIW, I certainly don't support that shit even though I made that instance my "home", not knowing that one guy's cesspool even existed there.
I chose that one because it's near me, hosted in a local datacenter, uses hydro power and has good performance.
I will be glad to let my voice be heard when we discuss and vote about this troll's fate in the Agora over there (which feels very much like the polar opposite of that troll's bullshit).
As far as I can tell it has no support from the instance's members.
I think our admin was busy upgrading to 0.18 while this was posted, hopefully this gets addressed soon and I'm prepared to move on from there if it isn't.
Having interacted with decent people there, I hope we'll sort this out.
If they want that community on their instance I don't want to interact with their instance. I guess at this point I should just spin up my own instance and federate via whitelist.
it's really easy, I spun up my own instance in a morning. Ok, I am a sysadmin and programmer, but it really wasn't very difficult and didn't require much beyond creating a VPS and DNS entry along with basic abilities at the command line to use the ansible playbook.
It's not overblown. It's sending a message to the admins of that instance.
Blocking the community itself is the smallest Band-Aid in the world. The kinds of users who join that instance for that community aren't going to be quarantined to just that community.
its entirely overblown, the smallest band-aid in the the world is entirely appropriate for one user shitposting
I think deleting the sub is the right call simply because it’s trying to replace a community that did enough in the past to deserve a ban on any platform.
Tired of all the calls for defederation though.
De-federation isn't the tool to solve this specific problem. That community has 34 posts, all by a single user, and under 30 total comments across all threads. I cannot find a single post or comment in that community that would violate any rules on lemmy.ml.
A single user posting content in a community that shares a name with a banned community on another social media platform seems like a very very low bar to push for de-federation.
This is like saying that it's no big deal if you only have a little cancer.
It's more like saying that we shouldn't jump to amputation as the first step after diagnosis.
Everyone keeps repeating that defederation should be a last resort. Fine, but we should also acknowledge that the list of resorts is very short:
Server admins talk to the admins of the server hosting the offending community, in an attempt to get them to clean their house. If they don't;
Defederate.
There really isn't anything else for server operators to do that isn't just letting the offending community continue unabated.
Offloading the responsibility to individual users to block users / communities is lazy. Most of us don't want to spend our limited time playing whack-a-mole.
I suspect we'll see user accounts shuffling around so that they land on a home server whose defederation policy matches their preferences.
I think instance owners need to be able to block specific communities in other instances instance-wide.
So, if lemmy.ml wants to block c/the Donald!sh.itjust.works they should be able to block that community for all users of lemmy.ml, but not the rest of the sh.itjust works instance.
Best of both worlds IMO
this is already an option, as shitjustworks pointed out in the update post
It's not about ignoring them or not having to see the content. It's about not providing them a platform.
They would seep into other communities
You're probably right that blocking a single community should probably be an option.
That said, if an instance is willing to allow hateful communities like TD, I expect their comment sections will be more toxic than other instances. I like the idea of defederating from instances that allow hateful communities.
its 3 people
suggesting that shitjustworks is bound to be more toxic because the modteam didnt immediately ban a shitposting community consisting of 3 people is ridiculous
I wasn't talking about this one specific instance really. I was using it as an example while talking about the tools needed for managing federation and what a user sees.
nothing about 'if an instance is willing to allow hateful communities like TD, I expect their comment sections will be more toxic' or 'i like the idea of defederating from instances that allow hateful communities' indicated that you werent actually talking about the instance currently under fire for supposedly (but not actually) allowing hateful communities like TD
To be fair I've been reading a lot of hateful comments about reddit CEO and certain billionaires during the past few days so I'd say that our stance on such content is a bit hypocritical.
"Go see the titanic" meme is a good example
Are you seeing angry comments about /u/spez or hateful comments? While I can understand and condone angry comments I would hope that hateful or threatening comments are being moderated appropriately.
I guess I don't see "go see the titanic" memes as "hateful" given that they're coming from a acute sense of betrayal rather than something like racism or nationalism. That's probably because I'm angry too and see some of the distasteful comments and memes as somewhat justified in this case. I don't post shit like that but I don't see it as the same as the hate speech that used to come from /r/the_donald.
I just don’t get it.
Block the c/TheDonald community. That’s it. That’s all you need to do.
When it gets no visits, no views, and only it’s handful of users meme-ing each other, it’ll die. One of the big reasons TheDonald took off on Reddit was because of all the attention it got.
So, don’t give them attention. Don’t feed the trolls.
I’m not saying to tolerate neo-nazis. But running from them isn’t exactly a time proven strategy, either. They will exist, and it’s up to all of us to remind them that their views are garbage.
Exactly. I don't feel obligated to read all the subs on an instance, I just read the ones I'm interested in.
I never knew that community existed since I don't read All (too spammy) nor do I search for alt-right topics. No idea how OP found it unless they were simply looking for shit to stir up.
I'm guessing it's as you suggested, they looked for a reason to be offended.
I don't think I'll ever see any content from it even though I don't block it (not going to put in the effort to find it so in can block it). I have my subscriptions and largely stick to those.
So eh, I don't really care. However, if the cause problems in places I frequent, I'll report and block them.
Taking swift actions to oppose neo-nazis being able to spread their ideology is not running from them. Quite the opposite. Anyways it's banned now so this is all moot.
Have you looked at the content of that sub? There are a total of 3 posts about the twice-impeached, twice- indicted, single-term, sexual predator.
I was on Reddit when the_donald was spewing their bile and have no wish to see it duplicated on Lemmy or anywhere else. Even so, I think that any alarm at this point is extraordinarily premature.
I disagree. Shit like this needs to be snuffed out in its infancy.
Not arguing with that, but sounding an alarm about defederation when there are instant fixes to the issue is absurd.
OP may come across a little alarmist, but it's really easy for online communities to become Nazi bars if the admins aren't carefully weeding out the ne'er-do-wells. Especially in places with open signups. Taking a hands-off approach and simply hoping that everyone is going to be a mature adult and behave themselves is effectively voting to surrender the site to assholes.
And yeah, they follow "the rules", and free speech and all that, until they don't. The thing to keep in mind is that these are not folks who, as a community, are interested in engaging in good-faith discussion. They are looking for a platform to spread disinformation and troll the libz, and any platform that facilitates it is also complicit.
Actively purging communities of reactionaries is pretty important and the hands-off attitude that some Free Speech Warriors inherited from Reddit advocate for is only going to spread reaction. If they care so much about Free Speech, they can go back to their pedophile website and talk about how r/jailbait needed to be kept up for the sake of free speech.
I wouldn't de-federate sh.itjust.works for that now. But stuff like this doesn't look good and the "Just ignore it bro" crowd shows that they never had to deal with organized harassment themselves. The_Donald wasn't just a harmless sub with a little bit of trolling, it was responsible for extreme radicalization and people died because of it. The reality is that such hate groups never stay in their place and behave everywhere else. They brigade and harass every time. Should the community grow and attract more people, it's just a disaster waiting to happen. People are responsible for their own instance and are free to choose whatever they want but that's the same for other servers if they should decide to de-federate.
And that was indicated when they migrated to Voat. Nobody else used Voat, it was just them. Also when reddit changed their policies to prevent one sub from appearing on the front page more than once.
The whole point is to be obnoxious in spaces where it isn't welcome. When they realized they couldn't do that on a platform that only consisted of them, there was no incentive to engage. The whole point is to shit up a platform enjoyed by others, and that's exactly what they'll do here.
Voat was about 50% fatpeoplehate, 35% T_D, and 15% 'free speech' enthusiasts. The 15% were quickly pushed out by the overwhelming amount of content generated by fatpeoplehate, but eventually they got tired of posting the same things over and over and only T_D was left.
Well said @catshit_dogfart@lemmy.ml.
This is a single user, not the ghost of The_Donald subreddit, who appears to be trolling. If that's the accepted bar for de-federation then lemmy.ml is going to quickly become a single instance federation.
If it develops into something that breaks the instance's rules, it should be shut down. Until then, don't just assume because of the name that it's going to break the rules.
If it's supporting some shitheel Republican's cult of personality and names itself after the most infamous online instance of the cult of that shitheel, it doesn't need to be given benefit of the doubt. If it's some wholesome uwu satire, then it can bear that fucking cross and negotiate being removed from blacklists.
A Hilldawg 2024 instance should be treated in just the same way, before some stupid American asks.
Nazis shouldn't be able to do what they want on their own instances either, they should be crushed there as they should in every space
But also blacklisting is a basic first step that everyone should do, so you aren't wrong there.
In defense of some instance admins, I think they can just literally not know because it's hard to keep tabs on every instance that gets made, but that also means that, if you use that instance, you should totally DM them to let them know (I've had to do this with certain other instances). If the admins persistently ignore those warnings, they should be treated as complicit.
Wasn't The Donald originally a subreddit making fun of trump? I saw that TD was created here but my assumption was they wanted to restore the original purpose. I haven't looked at it since then though.
Edit: Nope. It is in fact a pro trump community.
Trump was a joke until suddenly he wasn't.
He's still a joke, just one that stopped being funny a long time ago.
No, he's still a joke. It's just America is a joke too.
At the very beginning, yes. The tricky thing with having fun pretending to be bigots is that you eventually find yourself surrounded by actual bigots who very much missed the fact that you were joking.
“Any community that gets its laughs by pretending to be idiots will eventually be flooded by actual idiots who mistakenly believe that they’re in good company.”
... Albert Einstein.
just joking, it was Descartes.
see also: gamersriseup
Maybe for the first few weeks, then it stopped being a joke.
theres a antifascist placeholder on https://lemmy.world/c/the_donald
Friggin hilarious that one
Amazing sidebar
I think that's the one I saw originally.
So this is a quick way to ruin the fediverse: Create a The_Donald community on the big instances.
There's one on lemmy.world I believe, but it's not what you're expecting.
I was kinda hoping it would just be dedicated solely to Donald Duck but I guess this is also fine, haha
I was expecting a community about Donald Duck, but it is even better.
No, why would it? The instance could simply enforce its moderation guidelines and block the community.
It would ruin the Fediverse because, if this post is any indication, it takes nothing but a user shouting 'Nazi!' to get people ready to accept de-federation. Most users who are commenting appear to not have looked into the issue or viewed the community before giving their opinion. They're more than willing to buy the 'Nazi bad, de-federate' argument with zero evidence.
If you look into the community that the OP is referring to... it is made up of a single user's posts and less than 30 comments across the entire community (most by the same user). None of the posts or comments in that community/by that user violates any rules on sh.itjust.works or kbin.
There is no there there, as they say. This is a 'The Boy Who Cried Wolf' tale. There's no wolf, there's no Nazi bar. One user created, one community and now we have a 200+ comment thread discussing de-federation. I cannot find any other word to describe the situation other than: kneejerk.
I'd imagine this is one of the many reasons why beehaw went ahead and defederated from sh.itjust.works. It's a bit TOO lenient over there in some ways.
Agreed. And Beehaw didn't say they were kicking any instance to the curb permanently. They're simply waiting on Lemmy to add more effective moderation tools, like the ability to defederate communities rather than entire instances, and for bot checks to become the norm.
Users aren't tied to communities, but instances.
Yes, but what we're talking about here is how to effectively target and limit violence, bigotry, hate speech, etc., and that happens best at the community level not the instance level. Let's say you have something like this:
How do we limit harm to YourInstance.com?
The Users: Most of the MixedBag users are harmless and contribute to the growth and diversity of the fediverse (including YourInstance), so defederating them is a last resort. But what about the BigotsRUs subscribers? On Reddit, some mods use bots to ban or mute people subscribed to problematic subreddits. We could try something similar here, but that's not the only option. After all, I live over here, not in the community where they're trash-talking. It's when they bring their shit into my house that I get pissed. If they put on their Sunday Best over here and want to have actual conversations, I'm fine with that. That more tolerant approach has the benefit of not ostracising and radicalizing users who are on the fence and just hang out there on occasion for the memes. So basically, ban the bad actors when they cross the line while on your turf, but leave the rest alone.
The Community: If BigotsRUs is poorly moderated, frequently spews hate, and its inclusion in All harms YourInstance's users, that's what Remove is for. As an admin, you can remove communities from the feed without affecting users or the instance, which feels like the first and best step to handling most issues.
The Instance: Like I said, defederation is the nuclear option that impacts all communities and all users on MixedBag.social, so I'd rather limit that to a last resort. However, sometimes the instance itself if the problem by either encouraging bad actors or centering around a topic that has no place in your instance's vision. For example, what if you're running an orthodox religious instance for your friends and want to defederate from the porn-only lemmyNSFW.com? Or what if your instance is being overrun by bots from LaxSignUps.social and you don't have a big enough mod team to separate out the trash? For me, that's the ideal use case for instance-wide defederation, and it's the main reason Beehaw is defederating from others. Yes, they're protective of their culture, but right now it's mostly about the small mod team's inability to filter out spam from instances with lax signups.
It's an absolute lie that they are just concerned about hatespeech -- albeit one that the admins themselves very actively promote. They pretend to be ideologically neutral, even going as far as saying "beehaw is just a collection of individuals", an ironically Thatcherite statement that suits them quite well.
That's a pretty big accusation. I don't have enough information to say one way or the other and have just read a handful of posts from the Beehaw mods, so I'd appreciate some context and direct evidence if there is any. From what I can tell, they've never pretended to be ideologically neutral, and seek to actively defend minority rights and push back against what they view as fascist movements.
Thankfully they had the evidence pinned for some time:
Later:
And there's more but you can just read it yourself:
https://beehaw.org/post/524300?scrollToComments=true
Obviously I support cracking down on hate speech, you can see my activity throughout this thread, which consists entirely of me doing that while taking maybe two or three asides to knock beehaw when someone else mentioned it. What I don't support is taking the absurd position that it's not a political stance.
Of course, this all works as an excellent bit of smoke and mirrors for an audience of credulous radlibs to whom you don't want to confess you are splitting with instances that are decidedly to your left -- such as Hexbear.net , the only instance which actually has site-mandated use of self-identified pronouns, which was put on the blacklist pre-emptively before it had federated with anyone (and it still hasn't) for reasons that the userbase are left to conclude are "hate speech" or its "endorsement".
What does it about the other users in MixedBag that they are ok on the same instance as BigotsRUs?
If BigotsRUs was formed on the instance I was on, I would be talking to the admins on banning BigotsRUs before looking for a different instance.
Nah. Beehaw just has an agenda to push. I'm glad they defederate though. I want nothing to do with those Nazis.
I'm not informed enough on Trump to know if "Trump supporter" automatically implies "Nazi". The r/TD community itself was cancer, I believe. Still - for the sake of the argument, let's pretend that all Trump supporters are Nazi, and that the comm is about people genuinely supporting Trump.
The main problem here is that you got exactly two subscribers in a rather large instance. From the PoV of other instances, to defederalise shitjustworks is the same as using a nuclear bomb to get rid of a cockroach. At least at this stage, IMO actions in other instances should be towards that community and its users, not the whole instance.
And, within shitjustworks: if the admins have a laissez faire approach, I think that actions are up to the users.
Also I wouldn't generally link my own blog here, given that I use it mostly to vent, but this might be food for thought for the folks here. I think that analogies between ants in a kitchen and undesired users are specially useful: you don't want to nuke the kitchen because of a single ant, but you don't want to leave it do as it pleases either.
If the admins have a laissez faire approach, then they can go fuck themselves. The difference between a nuke and defederation (well, there are many, but the main one here) is that defederation can be undone. If the admins don't like their instance being isolated, they can fix the problem by getting rid of the comm. If they are that committed to allowing the comm, then it is correct to keep them defederated.
The one caveat I will give is that it would be incumbent on the other instances to follow through on overturning the blacklist -- and making sure their peer instances do -- if shitjustworks actually does comply eventually.
Note that, by laissez faire approach, I don't mean "do nothing at all"; that's incompetence, and incompetent admins go fuck themselves, as you said. For me, laissez faire means "keep a close watch on the situation, and intervene if necessary, but otherwise let the userbase handle it".
And in this case you got a rather engaged community, who's most likely prone to engage those Nazi, and tell them to fuck off. Is admin intervention necessary in this case?
I'm not sure if a laissez faire approach would be a good approach in this specific case, but it's generally a good "default" - often people managing communities cause more harm than good when they're trying to proactively solve issues that didn't appear yet.
That's a great point - the reversibility makes the option less drastic. Still annoying for legitimate users and admins of other instances.
"If necessary" is doing all of the work there. By your meaningless definition of the word, I agree that's a good approach, but you're letting insinuation occupy the entire point in dispute. We both know what "laissez-faire" actually means, and I think the Gilded Age showed us what a shit approach it is.
Yes, it is. I am quite familiar with how these dynamics work -- I followed r/cth for about a year before it was quarantined. It was probably the most-hated sub of its time outside of literal Nazi subs (remember TD was long-inactive at that point). People complained about it all over the place for a variety of reasons, both good and bad faith. With all the controversy, do you know what it never was before it got quarantined? And honestly not even before it was banned? Neutralized. The vocal hatred against it fed its growth, and the userbase was quite aware of this fact and took advantage of it actively. When it was finally banned, the slide in Reddit's entire user culture on the popular and political subs was palpable, and that transformation took maybe a month.
Now, unlike the Reddit admins, I won't equivocate between TD and cth, they were not the same in a pat little horseshoe theory conception because horseshoe theory is horseshit. That said, it nonetheless stands as a glaringly obvious counter example to your flimsy market solution -- as does most of Reddit's history before that, with various places much worse than cth festering quite aggressively until the admins banned it, either for their own reasons -- like cth -- or external political reasons starting from jailbait to fatpeoplehate through to WatchPeopleDie.
Market solutions rarely work except for the rich and their lackeys, and the people who propose relying on them without any specific evidence should be regarded with suspicion. I've heard these libertarian spiels a thousand times before and, well, the only mistake I've ever made with libertarian ideology is not having enough contempt for it -- which I say having never respected it to begin with.
Oh, it's annoying is it? That's such a shame, that it's annoying. I'll be sure to tell the minorities pushed out of the Nazi bar that preventative measures are possible but really should not be implemented because they would be annoying.
Please, give a stronger tell that you don't give a shit for the people this more gravely impacts that you acknowledge how reversible this is and yet think that it's still too much of a hassle because it's annoying.
Relevant details: 1) the community was removed already, so I'll discuss the implications if it wasn't; 2) I'll quote things out of order; 3) there's a TL;DR: near the end.
By "laissez faire" I do not mean the economic approach. I was using the expression more literally; roughly "let them handle it", or "you let do". This is clear by context, since the topic does not revolve around macroeconomics¹ ("market" this, "market" there). Context, use it.
The definition is not useless, as it's also clear that we were assigning different values to the expression. Words and expressions don't have "actual" (intrinsic, well-defined and immutable) meanings, they change per person and sometimes per utterance². Learn to handle this.
That said: onwards I'll call it OIAN (Only Intervene As Necessary), to avoid ambiguity, since you struggle with this sort of thing. The underlying reasoning stays the same no matter which words are used to convey it, be it laissez faire or OIAN or wug or waka-waka or gkfdshjs.
After a quick check in Wikipedia: why do you assume that I know random historical events from random countries across the globe? I'm not from USA. Stop trying to build a digital wall, e-Trump style³.
With that out of the way:
Yet another assumption: that "all the work" won't change from instance to instance, and that you know exactly what is supposed to be.
Under an OIAN approach, confronting a Nazi who's "playing along" (for now) should be up to the community. If it's OIAN for the Nazi, it's OIAN for everyone else. Three things might happen:
Under an "it's up to the admins to tie the shoes of the baby users" approach, the admins themselves should dictate the following:
This kind of "we dictate this, we dictate that" piles up over time, leading to abuse of a strict approach. Plenty examples of that from Reddit⁵: user got a problem? "MODS, SOLVE IT FOR ME". Mod got a problem? "ADMINS, SOLVE IT FOR ME". It leads into powermods, rogue admins, huge lists of rules that got broken all the time (each to address a new tiny issue) and opening even more grey areas for selective enforcement. And guess what, you're empowering the admins in detriment of the users by that.
Emphasis mine - even if we disregard that this is a big "chrust me" (anecdotal evidence does not lead to meaningful conclusions - bring data or arguments, otherwise you're just calling your reader gullible/stupid with this sort of anecdote), there's a second issue here: it disregards that r/chapotraphouse was an already established community, full of people reinforcing each other's behaviour. The TD @ shitjustworks however had literally one active user.
If we got an actual gathering of people in TD @ shitjustworks, then perhaps the dynamic would be similar. Perhaps. I'm not too eager to be an assumer.
I believe that I get what you mean by mentioning CTH - it's an example for the dynamic. I won't assume crap like "than u think dat TD = CTH? lol"
If I had to take a guess, I think that the admins in Reddit didn't really equate TD=CTH. They banned CTH to throw a bone to the right-wing users, because they still wanted those users in their platform; they just didn't want that content due to the advertisers not liking it. That should not happen in the Lemmyverse, as those users themselves are undesirable.
OK, now you're just distorting what I said, for the sake of yet other three fallacies: appeal to emotion, extended analogy, and strawman.
I'm not saying "don't kick out the Nazi". I'm saying "letting the users kick out the Nazi might be an option". Is the difference clear?
Think on the differences between the RL bar and a Lemmy instance, not just the similarities. I'll list three for you:
And there's a potential fourth difference that I brushed off in the other comment, but might as well address here: given that I give as many craps about USA internal politics as I do for the Mongolian ones - for the same reason - you gotta convince me that "TD supporter → certainly a Nazi". Otherwise we're dealing with a heuristic, not a confirmed fact⁶.
Please give me a stronger tell that I'm not dealing with a context-illiterate and an assumer, who's eager to churn out fallacies like there was no tomorrow, and eager to disingenuously (or worse, idiotically) assume words onto the others' mouths, as you consistently did across your comment.
Anyway, answering your request: the impact of that "community" with its sole active user posting crap there would be close to zero, even to the marginalised groups. There's a bigger issue in his username than the community itself, as that username would be seen outside the community. The actual concern would be if the user brought others like him there. That would only happen if nobody confronted him.
I hope that the above is already enough to show that I'm actually considering the impact on those people, when I'm saying that defederation and admin action might be unnecessary. Past that, your "prove that you aren't guilty of siding with the ants" is irrelevant.
TL;DR:
The admins are not your parents. "ADMINS, I CAN'T CONFRONT THE NAZI BY MYSELF" is not support to marginalised groups, it's to act like a Reddit baby. A kid sees the ant in the kitchen and says "MUM! I SAW AN ANT! KILL IT!"; the adult crushes it.
Also, stop dealing with marginalised groups as if they were "fragile little things, who can't defend themselves unless big admin patronises them". That's perverse incentive - you're disempowering them. You might have "good intentions" doing so but perhaps you should pave Hell with them.
If you don't want to be a burden in online communities, and a fucking waste of time for the other posters, then learn how to take context into account when interpreting what others say, and stop
Learn how to take context into account when interpreting what other people say, like a decent person would, and unlike a redditor.
Footnotes first:
It's hilarious to imagine what kind of Marxist retains the magnitude liberal brainworms you display there. Would you like to tell me what sect you identify with? I'm just fascinated to find out, since your line of reasoning is completely against ML ideology. Are you one of Richard Wolff's spawn, maybe?
I'm sure you feel like a big boy but I'm familiar with the prescriptivism vs descriptivism debate, don't worry
What the hell are you talking about here? The Gilded Age was a ~30 year period in America following the Civil War where the government went full classical liberal on its non-regulation of the economy, which produced all the famous robber barons like JP Morgan, from which we inherit the classic image of such figures, which went on to inform basically every political cartoon ever along with the mascot of Monopoly. It spawned or popularized immensely infamous practices such as "company towns" and "scrip", along with its own genre of literature (see Stephen Crane). It's fine to not be educated on such matters but it's literally the most well-known era in American history other than the Great Depression or a war (back when America's domestic society was even culturally involved in wars).
N/A
Whoops, no citation, not even a name. Don't give a shit. CTH moderated itself pretty well, the admins just hated it (and the neoliberal userbase of broader Reddit).
I never called TD people Nazis. This is an irrelevant tangent, what I was talking about was the nature of reactionary cesspits in general, not Nazis specifically. I don't care what flavor of reactionary someone is, I don't like any of them.
Anyway, most of your post is just listing informal fallacies and I have no interest in entertaining high-school level bullshit when it's tediously rendered, so I'll just pick out a few more parts:
Just to clarify, my point of the laissez-faire comparison is not that using that term makes you a libertarian, but that it was interesting how it corresponded to the very libertarian-like ideology you expressed in your arguments. More on that later.
It's ridiculous to dismiss cth out of hand as an "anecdote" when it represents years of interaction on the website with what was, for a period of a bit more than a year, the largest extremist community on the website and easily, easily the most active. Treating it as a though it were a single data point equivalent to other extremist subreddits would in fact be warping the information available against what would be a reasonable representation of its magnitude. TD is the only stronger example due to how long it was active unless you want to get into the old Reddit Lore of fatpeoplehate or whatever.
This -- and how you talked about the Nazi bar issue before -- is a strange case of equivocation that seems almost deliberately obfuscatory. If I could crush the mosquito myself, I would, but because this is a forum and I am merely a normal user, I cannot and the community cannot ban them. The admins are the only people who have that power, so the best course of action (since a poll would be open to manipulation and those fuckers at beehaw wouldn't even blink before doing so) is to have admins use their power with the consent of the governed and for the governed to become ungovernable if the admins act unilaterally against the popular consensus.
In a similar way, patrons running the Nazis out of the bar would be illegal on many levels. The owner is the only one who is legally protected in doing so because it is his property, so he can pick up his bat and say in so many words "Leave or I will consider you a trepasser and beat you to a pulp" where a patron would be easily charged with a crime for making such a threat. Now, could the patrons act illegally and take things in their own hands anyway? Sure, but just like the difference between real futball and a Fifa video game, breaking the law in reality is possible while breaking the rules in a "programmed space" generally isn't. I could hypothetically strike a Nazi with a hammer, cops be damned. I cannot ban a Nazi here if the site does not give me permission, it literally just can't be done.
I fully support arming minority communities in real life. There is no way to smuggle a banhammer to a non-mod.
Also, the idea that supporting minorities is "babying them" is just asinine. Sitting by as they are attacked is not an example of being an ally, and forcing them to fend for themselves in the interest of what may as well be "protecting their honor as warriors" doesn't do shit except consign them to miserable lives of fighting in their own defense no matter how successful they are. That is why, in civil society, the main thing social minorities typically fight for are legal protections that make it so they can avoid those fights or make them easier to win! Black people in general don't seek to repeal the 1968 Civil Rights Act because the concept of a hate crime is "patronizing" to their ability to ... what? Go catch racial aggressors on their own? Fuck off with that "the Democrats are the real racists" shit. The Democrats are indeed real racists, but so are Republicans.
By the way:
Are you really going to tell me you're not some kind of Hayekian? Between your general lines of reasoning, your sophomoric list of wikipedia fallacies, and turns of phrase like this, you really, really seem to be a libertarian.
If you genuinely fail to spot the difference between what I said and what someone who [ipsis ungulis] "retains the magnitude liberal brainworms" would say, it means that you're such a failure at basic reading comprehension that you can be safely ignored as noise. (There's a second idiocy in the same excerpt, but I'll leave for the others to catch it.)
Defederate their asses. Fascism is a cancer.
Anyone who's been on Reddit or Twitter knows what happens if you give those psychopaths an inch.
Deplatforming works. That's why the chuds whine about it.
If three men sit at a table with a Nazi and don't protest, there are four Nazis at the table.
Personally, I'm subscribing to the belief that the fediverse's attribute of "true censorship is impossible" is a benefit, not a curse. Every prior example of censorship has just morphed into "advertiser palatable". Which is bad for everyone.
More than happy to have access to instances that will take the kind of drastic action you're suggesting, access to my own "block" function, etc. Let them come.
The fediverse will inevitably host some messed up stuff. Counting it a blessing that those people have a clear place to go to and sequester themselves off.
So ultimately? More than happy to have an instance that agrees with this extreme anti-censorship posture. Sh.itjustworks is fine in my books. I can block the community, just like I could block subreddits on Reddit without abandoning the whole platform. Hell, even write a script to block everyone who's subscribed to the community. The power is yours now, and nobody can take that away. That's the fediverse.
Mate just block it and move on. # You can't stop communities from being what they want to be. It will just form somewhere else. There's a fine line between keeping illegal stuff, harmful trolling and bots off the instance and just straight up policing free speech. At least there everyone knows where they are and can block them once.
I'd much rather that than play whackamole everytime the Donald pops up under a new banner.
Perhaps cool down a bit. You can always block a community that you don't want to see. Taking the nuke out on a whole instance (which is btw. about to install full democracy), just because you dont like a fringe group on there? That's just not the purpose of the defed tool. -- And TD is definitely fringe there and constantly mocked. Sh.itjust.works buddies are making a sport of it, just going there and trying to get thrown out as quickly as possible. They did not break the rules yet so there was no reason to kick them off. If you want to start a discussion on the topic, you can do so at https://sh.itjust.works/c/agora
I just preemptively blocked the community for my account. I'd recommend everyone do the same until, and if they prove to be a problem.
I think instead of calling for pre-blocks or defederation of entire instances, we have to be vigilant and keep a close eye on the discussions going on around us.
I'm saying this not because I'm an "enlightened centrist" living in a delusion of tolerance or a fascist in disguise. I am as left leaning, antifascist, and antiauthoritarian as they get. I'm just saying this as I know from experience that there's no real way to eliminate people with bigoted views from our communities other than on an individual basis.
Ban an entire instance, you'll still have to block the individuals if they come one by one to stir shit up on your turf. Just skip the first part and go for the individual communities and users. They will simply find each other and form groups, as instances or otherwise anyway.
I know it's not ideal, but there's no real way to prevent these fascist groups from forming anywhere there's a large enough number of people. We can only block our own interaction with them and form counter groups, and actively fight against their bigotry.
I believe this is the sad truth we all have to live with, at least for the time being, because I can't see defederation as an effective tool.
This is a fantastic comment. Defederation just causes more problems, as counterintuitive as that seems.
The threadiverse as a whole has a great number of smart, reasonable people. I would like to believe that we can build a system that allows us to flourish and them to simply exist.
But if we can't then we always have the option
What's the "more" when you defederate from problematic instances?
It's cowardice if you ban hate speech from your platform but don't moderate the content coming from other instances that aren't up to your standard. It's having your cake and eating it too.
It doesn't make sense that you don't trust your instance to moderate the content. Besides, isn't defederation public knowledge? So you can't just gaslight your instance's users willynilly, you'll be caught if you start defederating from pettiness.
Why should they get a platform? Why should they be allowed "to simply exist"? Because the Marketplace of Ideas will sort itself out and make sure the best ideas "flourish"? I regret to inform you that the real world doesn't work like the thought experiments of classical liberalism, and TD's namesake is ironically a great demonstration of that.
Reactionary spaces should be stamped out.
@CynAq you don't have to defed entire instances, if the instance themselves are willing to keep to their own principles. If that's not kept or they've changed their position, it is actually Fedi culture to date, to defed (this is on instance to instance basis). Federation isn't being connected to everyone, it's practicing the right to associate. That's why if you don't agree with your instance, unlike closed systems, you have the right/freedom to move.
(The problem is the moving so far only carries your social graph not post history. So yes there is a penalty - but this also incentivize users to also push their admins to act more representatively. Assuming that's what the majority wants)
If you go to your settings, you'll see "Blocks" at the top. There you can search "donald" on the right side and you can block all three that currently exist. I just found that out a few minutes ago.
You're probably going to have a bad time in the Fediverse if you're hoping to avoid viewpoints you don't agree with entirely. The best advice I can give you for now is to just block that community and move on with your life. As much as I hate TD and its members, the sh.itjust.works admin has the right to administer their instance however they want. If they end up with a sufficiently toxic total userbase where their users are causing problems on other instances to the point they are a net negative, they will end up being defederated by other more reasonable instances. Beehaw is being pretty aggressive with defederation for things like this, so if you're looking for the safest of spaces in the Lemmyverse they really might be more your speed. Or you can start your own personal instance and defederate whoever you want 🤷
the viewpoint "these immigrants need to be gunned down and trans people need to be eradicated" are not things i "dont agree with entirely" they are a vile evil toxin that cannot be tolerated.
yeah obviously, idk who is pretending otherwise?
You have no room to talk, your instance bends over backwards to be a safe space for neoliberals who support unipolarity and the exploitation of the third world.
"But some users disavow the US, etc."
Yeah, but virtually all of them nonetheless parrot the State Department's talking points about its enemies. That token "both sides" bullshit only supports the status quo while undermining the possibility of a positive alternative.
... Stop fearmongering.
The_Donald, isn't on lemmy. It's here: https://patriots.win/
After reddit booted them, they built their own reddit. I am pretty sure, they aren't interested in moving here, as that would ruin their echo-chamber.
Defederation is not the solution to your problem. sh.itjust.works is one of the larger lemmy instances, hosting lots of users, and lots of content.
The best solution for you, if you don't want to see https://sh.itjust.works/c/thedonald is to block the community. (Or the ONE USER who posts stuff in it)
You cannot defederate every instance, that hosts a community which you do not agree with or like.
(Also- unrelated- c/thedonald isn't going places.... after it breaks the fediverse record of negative downvotes, it will prob disappear soon......)
@Tsinc@feddit.de Care to share your viewpoint?
They might have a main community on patriots.win, that doesn't mean they wont try to spread their ideology into other social media. I don't think TD on sh.it.just.works will be successfull, but I hoped for a wider agreement here, that racism should not be activly shared. I can block them, I can move to another instance, but what i really want is to minimize the range of this and future extreme-right communities in the lemmyverse.
I think we have the amazing new tool of a federated space to build really nice communities. Why dont we use it? The admins of sh.itjust.works have the choice. If they are in favor of nazis, we better not wait longer until they are even bigger and more difficult to defederate.
I don't think anyone wants racism to spread. I mean- look at the rules for my instance for example. There aren't many.
The only point I am trying to address here- defederating instances, is going to kill this platform MUCH faster then just letting that one, tiny echo-chamber exist.
Lets say, we block that community and ban it. The problem is solved, right?
Absolutely not!, now you are going to have a bunch of those followers attacking lemmy with a vengeance, trying to push the agenda at every single corner!
On the other side- I think it is in the best interests of the platform as a whole, to remain somewhat neutral.
Sure, we have have individual communities who prefer left-wing, or right-wing. We have have instances dedicated to being liberal or conservative.
But- at a platform level, immediately bashing out on communities because it is against another's belief- is going to cause a lot more problems than it solves. Think about it, do you honestly thing the_donald would have ever existed if the tension from reddit didn't cause them to form their own echo chamber?
(Also- before anyone comments on my political affiliation- I am libertarian. I do not give a rats ass who you vote for, and I openly support your choice and right to vote how you choose.)
Also- other then your dislike for the_donald- have, they broken any rules? Have, they said anything racist?
I am quite willing to bet, they will be banned on the spot for being racist.
Yes. Fox News wasn't right wing and fascist enough. So they created OAN. They are willing to make there own thing to make layers of deeper circles. Fox News is a pipeline to OAN but ever since OAN was banned from most services the alt right was quieted until other pipelines funneled them to the derangement. Each subsequent deeper circle gets less reach when you kill the pipelines.
It is the paradox of tolerance. You can be welcoming to everyone with the same ideologues of tolerance that is the social contract of an open and welcoming society. But as soon as a rat comes in trying to spread intolerance and hate you must sever them out and cut them out to stop the spread. If you don't want racists purge them as soon as possible and don't let them get footing in the community. If you don't want assholes kick them out. Making a secondary account after they change their mind and want to be apart of a welcoming society is easy. But purging people who have infiltrated the highest parts of society after deciding you had enough is impossible.
I think you're a Nazi and you should be banned from lemmy.ml. Only a Nazi would be in favour of banning free speech and political opponents. Now what? How is this supposed to end?
It ends with the recognition that truth is a thing that exists, facts are real, and while there is plenty of room for debate, some things fall outside of that. That the Holocaust happened is not something we get to have an Opinion™ on. And while we can absolutely have a conversation about where that line should be, most people recognize that there should be a line, and if the goal is to create a generally pleasant online space, the line should probably be higher than "literally criminal".
I often see this idea pushed that, because some topics are controversial and politics is messy, it is impossible to actually label anything as true and all opinions are thus equally valid and should be respected. This is, quite simply, wrong. "I think you're the real Nazi" is only a plausible response if you pretend that Nazi is a genetical word for "person I disagree with" rather than a real term with actual meaning that either does or does not describe something.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox\_of\_tolerance
Their speech is not free, we all pay by having to put up with their bullshit. Even if its metaphorically sticking our fingers in our ears anytime they're nearby.
And over here, we have the Drama-Bitch habitat. If you listen carefully, you can hear its over-exaggerated mating call. This species is interesting because it evolved a unique vision mechanism: it can only see the world in extreme shades of white and black. Scientists currently think this is due to generations of inbreeding. When threatened with any kind of nuance, it resorts to the loud braying from which it gets its name; an overdramatic lament of how the world will turn into a literal hellscape if it doesn't get its way. It's incapable of understanding how absurd it sounds, and insists on being taken seriously, even though its wailings are too idiotic to even begin to engage with.
HEY! SIR! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, DON'T TAP ON THE GLASS! You get it started and it'll disappear into its pillow fort and scream literally all day long!
Moving on....
@xtremeownage Downvotes do nothing here to trigger deletion or admin action.
I know, but eventually, the user posting that content should figure out- it's not going anywhere...
Unless- there are users actively subscribing to that community.
That's not how fascists work.
Defederation may be the only solution to the problem without changing the source code to allow for better administration tools.
Do note, posts from that community, will ONLY federate to your instance, if somebody is actively subscribed to it.
If nobody is subscribed to that community, then posts from that community WILL NOT flow to your instance.
So if I want to spread my shit, I just need to create an account on that instance and subscribe to the community? Seems feasible and if they ban that account I (or someone else from the shit community) can create a new account and just keep going.
That the (unfortunate) workaround.
I mean, you would also need to make sure the posts you were trying to spread, were not -5000 in votes too. (Otherwise, I don't think the algorithm is going to pick them up...)
Interesting.
You can and should defederate from things you don't want to see. That's the whole point of the entire project, that you can control your experience and choose to interact with whatever communities you wish. The Donald has a history of brigading and generally being a barbarian horde of racist dickheads, so defederating from them makes absolute sense. This isn't just "I don't like your opinion", it's absolutely "these people have a proven history of ruining every group they go near."
Absolutely! Defederation is the prime weapon against these choad warriors.
Fuck fascists, and fuck any instance which would host them!
There's probably 11 fascists on kbin as well. Should your instance by defederated too?
https://sh.itjust.works/ isn't just c/thedonald.
Reddit, wasn't just r/thedonald.
c/thedonald, is a SINGLE USER on an entire instance.
Defederating the entire instance, to block the content of a single user, ONLY HURTS the thousands of users on that server, who want to see content elsewhere, and ONLY HURTS the users elsewhere, who want to see content on THAT server.
Then perhaps that instance should consider if it really wants to host the hateful content everyone is objecting to.
Maybe you should switch to beehaw. I think they align more with your interests
Haha, you likely have a point. Judging from most of the whinging responses, a lot should consider joining beehaw.
I don't give a shit what they do.
I can block them, just like every other community I don't want in my timeline.
Hopefully at some point, if we see entire servers being a problem and not just the one community on that server,
we can have the ability to block the server in its entirety, even our server doesn't decide to de-fed with them.
Ideally, kbin will allow us to decide for ourselves what servers/communities to block instead of deciding for us.
9 subscribers, 1 shitposter.
I'm not worried yet
I don't get how this whole federated thing works, but as soon as I'm able to figure out how, I'll be blocking that group.
I recently got suspended from Reddit for three days for telling one of these knuckle-dragging creeps that if Jews COULD replace his kind, I'd be all for it, and anything would be a step up, including a fetid clump of wet algae. I had deleted the rant in a haze of sobriety and good judgment, but Spez probably put it back up, as he's been doing with so many other comments, and that's likely how I got stung.
Fine, you horse-teethed, lemur-eyed, slave labor exploiting numbnuts, we can do things that way. Once I have access to it again, I'll just delete my Reddit account. I'm not even fucking around with social networks intent on giving me the hot beef injection until I'm bleeding from the rectum. I'm here to enjoy myself, not get abused. I'll take my account and burn it all down with a flick of a match and my middle finger. Don't push me, punk! I shot my Neopet just to watch it die!
FYI you can block a community. And I'm not a fan of echo-chambers. Whether you like Donald or not, I believe that as long as the content is not illegal, users should just block that community if they don't wish to see or amplify their posts. You're merely reinforcing their belief that they're being "persecuted" on the internet.
I think conspiracy theorists and nazis should feel persecuted.
I don't think the answer is to give them a platform as if their ideas are somehow valid or worth discussing. To treat those ideas as equal to others is to elevate them.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
We have to be intolerant of intolerance. The paradox of tolerance is a great read.
That's fine, but understand you don't speak for everyone. That's why individually blocking users and instances is the right move. Falling down the path of dictating what others get to see is tyranny. Users should have the option to block entire instances as well.
Indivually blocking users, communities, and instances still allows those communities to grow. Saying, "if bigotry bothers you just don't look at it," does nothing to get to the root of the issue. The problem is not just that some people don't want to see bigots. The problem is that we are allowing for a place that nurters the growth of bigots.
It's good to be able to block a community. Unfortunately, some children think they should get to dictate what others want to see. It's also bad that users don't have the ability to block entire instances.
Blocking indivuals, communities, and instances is helpful for the individual, but it does not deal with the root of the problem. Allowing a space for bigotry to grow.
This isn't the same as people wanting to block your favorite hobby or something. I don't think it's a good thing to provide a space for bigots to share their ideas.
I think this type of posts will have an opposite impact to what we want, we are just giving it the attention it needs to become what it was on Reddit, my recommendation? Block it immediately.
Doing nothing and hope that not many will find them? No, spotlight on them. The instance has to act.
I understand, there's many people that want nothing to do with a community like that, me included, but ultimately it will being attention to it, because some sympathize with these points of view. Hopefully the admins of shitjustworks take measures to make sure there's no racism on their instance.
I had no idea it existed so I went ahead and subscribed. I like to get my news from across the spectrum.
Currently blocking everyone that downvotes this post, wish me luck!
Thanks for doing me the favor. Since I will get blocked shortly let me just say before I go, Donald Trump is the biggest piece of shit ever elected. He is a national embarrassment and you all look like fucking sheep following him as he steals your money and makes fun of you! Peace out dumb asses!
Careful, some people might be downvoting because they don't want the community to get attention
True, and I thought of that as well, but I'll just have to take the chance that 1 of those 16 people is like you said because I don't want to have anything to do with the other 15
Your numbers may be backwards though, that group of people aren't really early adopters
Plus they've been banned for a while and have a few platforms of their own by now
Well anyone who doesn't support that community should either upvote the post or not vote at all I don't care if this post gives that community attention, let the users that support Trump go over there so that we know where they are. Makes it easier to get rid of all of them at once.
I just want to be proactive, so if my blockhammer hits someone who is not in favor of that community thats their problem but really I am not a power user so neither of us would miss out on anything anyways.
Some of us find defederating worse than the Donald. Block the community and move on.
Allowing the community to exist is not the same as supporting what it stands for.
A lot of people including myself, do not really care about Donald Trump (not from USA), but just supports free speech in general.
If you don't care about Trump you wouldn't miss that community anyways. The Venn diagram between apathy and support might as well be a dot in a circle. Free speech should have limits tolerating intolerance is stupid and has been proven time and time again, it's sad that people just forget history. I'm from Germany and I still do not support the regressive party of the USA.
I never noticed it being banned as I never cared about it. People who noticed are people who interacted with them, either supporting it or going there to get offended. But one of the reasons leaving reddit is censorship of different opinions, I don't want the same to happen here.
I saw plenty of leftist being intolerant, but noone thought about censoring them. Being from a country that had great casualties due to nazi invasions, I am careful to who I am calling a nazi. Leftist calling everyone they disagree with a nazi, is trivializing how horrible those people really were.
Took me a while :-)
Where is that info available?
If you're on kbin hover over "more" below your comment, click activity and then look at "reduces" which are the downvotes. I'm unsure how to do it on lemmy though I will have to look.
Edit: same works on posts (all posts not just yours)
Thank you!
Just downvote them if you see them. On reddit they abused certain features to get to the front page and once that method of manipulation was killed by reddit you rarely saw their posts.
Well that's unfortunate.
Users definitely need the ability to block entire instances themselves. That way we don't have to rely on others to do it for us or potentially block content we may want to see.
Is the community gone now?
no, https://sh.itjust.works/c/thedonald
90% posts from the same account. Hardly a community.
Most communities on Lemmy are 90% posts from the same account.
"Leftwingtears" "Why do people keep banning me, this is only equal discourse!"
I can't with these people.
If it gets too bad I'll make sure to block it from my instance.
Admins can remove single remote communities instead of having to defederate the whole instance completely.
How does that work, exactly? I though defederation at the instance level was the only real tool.
If you're an admin you can visit any remote community and click on "remove". You can even remote comments or posts from being visible to users of your instance. It's not ideal because it's on a case by case basis instead of it being an instance-wide silence which is often a better solution that doesn't require you to hunt down remote instances and remove them manually while it also doesn't break federation.
Well I think that is strength of Lemmy, everyone can have space on their own without anyone shutting them down, of course if crimes are commited this is a question for law authorities. If you don't want to see their content, you can either defederate or block their community.
I really don't understand this thinking that you cannot tolerate people with different opinion than yours to exist on the internet. Again if they break any laws, you can report it to authorities.
Everybody likes to preach tolerance to all, until they run into somebody who’s actually different from them
The Paradox of Tolerance as defined by Karl Popper in The Open Society and Its Enemies:
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.—In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.
I'm pretty far left leaning, and I honestly hope the last part of Trump's life is spent in jail, but the fact is that a giant hunk of the US population is pro-Trump, and it seems insane to me to say that those people shouldn't be allowed a place to talk about their candidate as long as no other rules are broken. I'll just block the community and move on.
There are actually moderated instances that have similar views as yours, you should look at beehaw.org. No reason for you to be exposed to the content you are sensitive to if you don't want to. This is the beauty of lemmy in my opinion
Great point! I think beehaw is a wonderful place for those who want others to dictate what they see. This solves the problem for everyone, except those who are going out of their way to push an agenda on others.
I hope that newcomers to the fediverse come to understand that defederation is a feature, not a bug.
If you don't like something, there is a block feature. It is good that the fediverse gains some diversity instead of staying an echochamber.
Bigotry loses you diversity. You eventually lose all the people who don't want to be around people dehumanising them.
So you trade off all the diverse opinions and experiences of those people, in exchange for... what exactly?
Bigoted extremists that spread disinformation aren't contributing towards diversity.
diversity shouldn't include bigots
Hate speech stands opposite of diversity.
In general, I agree. Diversity is a good thing, and I tend to prefer giving users tools for self-moderation rather than seeing instance admins use a blunt instrument like defederation which will inevitably have spillover consequences for communities that aren't even associated with TheDonald.
HOWEVER, this is still a good debate to have. The issue shouldn't be "allow all federation" vs "allow no federation" at the instance level, but rather "where do we draw the line?" Too lax and you've got child porn, hate speech, and weaponized disinformation. Too strict and you stifle free speech. I think we can all agree that a middle ground is the goal. So where is the line in this case?
Political communities? Great! Bring 'em on. We need an open "marketplace of ideas." But you can have a political debate without devolving into hate speech, provably false disinformation, calls to lynch politicians, and doxing. It doesn't matter if they're coming from the left or the right, death threats are not okay. That's not a political statement. It's just a fact. TheDonald has a long and sordid history on Reddit, and I doubt very much that it's even capable of staying on the right side of that line. But we should judge their Lemmy community by their moderation policy, not their history on another platform. Do they regularly allow hate speech? Death threats? Provably false disinformation? If so, that's exactly why defederation exists. Yes, there might be spillover consequences for the other communities on that instance, but if the instance mods don't have a problem with hate speech in their communities then it is an instance-wide problem that should be addressed at the instance level.
So far they're tiny and haven't done anything one way or the other. I don't think anyone should kick them out just for existing. But I do think we should talk about our community-wide lines in the sand, and then hold instances we federate with to those standards. Including TheDonald.
I clicked the link so I could block it, it went to a 404. The system works!
The meaning of Diversity certainly does NOT include "tolerating the intolerant".
These mouth-breathing worse-than-deadweights worship a grotesque wanna-be dictator who wipes the orange shit on his ass with any and every ideal of law and order, who incites violence to feed the endless void of his self-loathing.
They target minorities for harassment and violence.
They stormed the Capitol, with kidnapping and murder on their tiny insane minds, because they didn't like the results of an election they lost in a landslide.
They attempt to exploit the flexibility of free speech and democracy, to subvert and corrode it.
These sick people don't deserve a space ANYWHERE.
Okay, if The Donald is welcome here, and people are just coping by blocking, how about r/watchpeopledie?
Personally I detest Drumph and his Nascar possum farmer fans, but I loved seeing people eaten by escalators. If Lemmy's cool with the one, I'm recreating the other. I mean why not.
I'd happily live without the joy of gore, if it meant that flat earthers and conspiracy theorists weren't welcome either. But if the one is fine, then the other should be too.
I have no problem with people who like gore. They usually keep their interests to their community.
But I don't want the fedeverse I'm in to become a Nazi bar.
Antifa members have commited actual crimes, including some that costed lives, and supported those who did so. They use terror tactics on a regular basis coercing and silencing others. Even though I think their behavior is more fascistic than any current far right organization, I don't think they should be banned or silenced. In any case, I don't expect them to be banned here in any shape or form because they support and enforce the message currently approved by every major public institution and corporation.
God please just stop with your whining. Just block them and be done with it. How self-centered can you be to demand defederation just bc you can't deal with a political worldview thats different than yours? Screw you dude.
Nazis are not allowed a fucking platform! Saying that one race is better than another one is not a fucking “political worldview.” Jfc.
Like it or not, everyone is allowed a platform in the fediverse. I think users should have the means to block entire instances. If it's just this community that's bothering you, then you have the power to block it. Trying to defederate it is childish.
being racist isnt an accrptable world political view
Racism is not open for debate, if someone is racist then they are excluded from the topics of politics and human rights. And being a racist does not give someone a personality either. The far right cannot handle those facts.
intolerance is the cancer that kills the tolerant society. is it really that hard to say racism bad?
I know right? But but but both sides should be able to.... No the fuck they shouldn't.
Imagine believing hate is a valid world view... Sad.
I guess racism is a worldview? As long as individuals can just never visit that dark corner of the Internet, it doesn’t need to be technically defederated, thereby not blocking other non-fascist and racist communities. (To block those communities, just visit: https://kbin.social/magazines?q=thedonald and hit the ∅ )
If you don't want to see it, you have the tools to block the community. Users should also have the ability to block entire instances. Instead of trying to push your agenda onto everyone else, maybe join an instance like beehaw that is already doing that. You'll be much more welcomed there and won't be ruining things for people who prefer to moderate themselves.
I opened that community, I didn't see any racist posts
Support for Trump is inherently racist, homophobic, transphobic, and misogynistic.
Good lord. These are the people wanting to control what others see. It's insane the hoops they have to jump through to seem legitimate.
Just say, "I don't like Trump and I don't want anyone else to see support for him." You'll come across as more genuine.
Not being from USA, I could not really care any less about Trump.
But your take is just insane in my opinion.
To me it seems like that the hate towards Trump is purely political, and I did not really see a strong evidence of him being that wildly racist
No it isn't. Get your head out of the sand.
Im just going to put this out there, if you enable any criminal to commit more crimes, then you are culpable for the crimes he commits. The same goes for supporting any political candidate who commits crimes, you are supporting those crimes as well, including all past and present and future crimes.
I have no problem with criminal who have paid their debt to society and are generally repentant of what they have done.. so once donny has done his time and publicly repents for the crimes he committed, then I'll be fine with him too and his supporters.
Supporting Biden and Clintons also makes you complicit in crimes they committed all over the world? I have nothing against that statement, but you should really keep the same standard for everyone and not be selective.
lol, okay
"I'm not a bigot I just don't consider being a bigot to be a deal breaker" is such a weird defense for voting Trump.
Always love when far right MAGA chuds call their fascist hate "different opinions" and other similar shit. We all see through your bullshit lol.
Hero worship of a con man is not a valid ideology or worldview.
Its a cult, and cults always end the same way no matter how big they get.
Koolaide
"political worldview"
Wasn't aware that violence and bigotry was a political world view
Go join your friends in your little safe spot at the_donald
Found the Trump supporter.
I think we learned in January 6 that allowing these communities to exist online is more than just letting people express a different political worldview.
Just wanted to throw some support for you out there, I'm not at all a trump fan but social media driven echo chambers are half the reason the worst political ideals are spreading. Unfortunately there's not an easy answer to this, but I don't think defederation is it.
Banning white supremacy is not the same thing as making an echo chamber.
I totally agree, I just think as an overall community we could report/brigade the racism, rather than allow it to grow unchecked. Maybe I'm wrong.
Deplatforming works. Don’t give any oxygen at all to fascists.
Source
Defederating wouldn't disrupt them, your source is about the removal of leadership/core memebers in online hate organisations. Something I imagine would happen rather quickly on this platform when those people get banned for racism.
That being said I took a look at the community and there's like 3 accounts posting pro-trump posts. Not exactly a community...they're probably already isolating themselves on a different website.
Defederating helps because it limits their reach to a wider community. They're currently a small group because Lemmy and Kbin are new. If they're left unchecked, they will grow.
You are never going to eliminate groups like this, but deplatforming them prevents their ability to radicalize more people.
I'm Jewish. They think I have secret space lasers that start forest fires. No, I don't have to "give them a space so I don't have an echo chamber", a lot of them want me dead. This isn't about politics.
Feel free to leave and go back to Reddit. You don't get to decide what any other user here interacts with.