Anti-trans Missouri A.G. can now access trans people’s medical records
A judge ordered Planned Parenthood to hand records of transgender care over to Andrew Bailey.
A St. Louis judge has ruled that Missouri Attorney General Andrew Bailey is entitled to Planned Parenthood’s transgender care records, ordering the nonprofit to turn over some of its most sensitive files to the man who has built his unelected political career on restricting health care access for trans people.
In his Thursday decision, Circuit Judge Michael Stelzer wrote that Bailey can collect documents under Missouri’s consumer protection statute that aren’t protected under federal mandate, namely the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, better known as HIPAA.
“It is clear from the statute that the Defendant has the broad investigative powers when the consumer is in possible need of protection and there is no dispute in this matter,” wrote Stelzer. “Therefore, the Defendant is entitled to some of the requested documents within his [Civil Investigative Demand].”
Bailey, who last year attempted to implement a ban on gender-affirming care for people of all ages, was quick to celebrate the decision, calling it a “big day” for the state.
Ffs, he makes it sound like toddlers are getting snatched off the streets to get "trans'ed".
Give me one fucking case anywhere in this state where a minor was given surgery without parental consent. Go ahead, I'll wait.
But if they're forced to abide by logic and reasoning how are they supposed to oppress women and minorities?
Honestly they have sown the myths of trans healthcare so hard that people legit believe 5 year olds are receiving puberty blockers. The barest of sense is easier to hijack than people can believe. It's why we can't depend on a majority vote for stuff like this. The airbrains are being given butterflies to chase and then telling us we're crazy. They probably have some fictional bogeyman-esque case someone wrote an article about or a interviewee they managed to play out of context nonsense from to cite you.
They've managed to convince people that 5 year olds are out here getting gender reassignment surgery, like it's not already incredibly hard for willing adults to get it
Also like I dunno about all trans people everywhere but for myself and all the trans folk I know being trans when I was a kid really wasn't focused on my body. Like all it takes to pass pre-puberty is a haircut and clothes and you're perfectly happy. There's just not a lot of physical differences between the sexes up to a point. It's not until you start developing secondary sex characteristics that you care much about your body at all... Puberty though... It's like a body horror. Once you go from effortlessly passing to having to work at it it's like actually losing something you didn't realize you valued so much knowing you will never experience it again.
The funniest part is, that's exactly who puberty blockers were initially intended for. Like the whole original point of puberty blockers is to block puberty in young children who are prematurely entering puberty. They've been in use for decades too, but no one complained until they started to be used in gender affirming care 🙄
Which was pretty much from the beginning too.
The sad thing is that puberty blockers are a discussion worth having. They aren't perfect. It's tech absolutely worth refining for trans usage to combat it's drawbacks but we can't talk about having awesome perfect trans care with amazing outcomes when the conversation we're having is whether we're allowed to have any trans care at all.
It must be a new strain of that chemical they put in the water that turns the friggin frogs gay
IT'S NOT. HUMAN. INTELLIGENCE!!!
Huh?
Sorry I thought we were doing Alex Jones impressions.
Oh lol
When people were arguing for this ban in Indiana, people were saying the same stupid shit.
And it turned out that there was no hospital or clinic that performed such surgery on minors in the first place.
They didn't care, they just kept saying it.
Why should it matter if the parents give consent if the minor cant consent? A parents could consent to their child getting a face tattoo, but it doesnt mean a kid can consent to that.
I don't understand your question. Children can't consent, so when they would need to consent to something, their guardians are asked to consent for them. That's how e.g. all medical surgeries are performed on children.
So then what if the child wants a face tattoo, should the parent be able to consent for them?
What do you mean, "should"?
Legal guardians do handle consent for their wards, which is why circumcisions are legal - there's no meaningful legal distinction here between a face tattoo and a circumcision.
That's how things are. If you're asking me how things ought to be, that's an absurd question to ask someone on the internet.
Of course there is a legal distinction and practical difference between a face tatoo and circumcision, that is just silly. So you are perfectly fine with a minor permanently changing themselves just as long as their parents dont disagree?
Why do you care /what does it matter what I'm perfectly fine with? I've been describing the way the country's legal system works to you. I'm not a lawmaker, I can't change any of these rules.
No, that is not how the legal system works...
I care because children dont have the ability to consent, and if they are being abused then they have the right to be protected.
In your mind, how does our legal system handle children's consent issues if not the legal guardians, then? How do you think it works when a child wants to go on a field trip in school, for example? How is consent determined?
The parent can consent to things that dont directly harm kids. The part in question is what direct harm is, and you guys seem to think permanent changes of their biology (if that is the right word) is not direct harm and that is where the disagreement is.
100% of all surgeries harm kids too, including circumcisions. That's part of the definition of surgery. You seem to have a fundamentally flawed understanding of several things, including the basic concept of consent. I sincerely hope you educate yourself, especially before (if ever) you have any children of your own. Consent is an important concept that no-one seems to have taught you about.
Circumcision is mild harm at best but it can arguably be a hygiene benefit. Under your definition of harm, then exercising is harmful also because you have to tear your muscles a bit, but as we both know we are talking about the net benefit.
And maybe you can educate yourself and learn that kids can consent.
Shit, I thought you were just asking questions. You had a point this whole fuckin time? What a cowardly way to make it!
Oh yeah, the internet is all about bravery...
lol. With the self own
Bro, c'mon now! Grow a spine
I guess I have to explain this to you; nothing you say on the internet is brave, its just words, you can be right or wrong.
How else do you think transgender women have gotten so much hotter in the past decade or so?
(This is a joke btw and I hate that I have to say this)
Well, I definitely have
As I age into my late 40s myself, I appreciate the beauty of maturity far more than the beauty of youth now. So I believe you.
Conservatives : Show me your personal medical records. I need to know if you are commiting crimes.
Also conservatives: No you can't see my tax returns. That's personal.
Even better - Conservatives: show me your personal medical records, I need to know if you are doing something I want to be illegal.
Also conservatives: what do you mean you want to check my mental health background before I can purchase a gun? Outrageous.
The whole LGBT stuff is such bullshit since it should 100% easily fall under first amendment expression it is retarded that they have not been trounced are every turn.
Ah, but you see, there is no restrictions to owning a gun. Our forefathers believed so, even though at the time every gun was a single shot using black powder that wasn't that accurate. They absolutely knew that one day people would have semi-automatic weapons able to fire off an obscene amount rounds in a minute, hitting a target accurately from a long distance.
Don't forget that they were just coming out of a time of oppression and persistent existential fear, but were obviously clairvoyant enough to know that it would be a rule that held in what would be the absolute safest and most peaceful time the world has known in 200 years.
Do better, please.
I knew that would be the one thing someone would comment on. I am not referring to someone with cerebral palsy, downs syndrome, ADHD, or any other affect that would cause the slowing of mental capacity. I am referring to politisication of something that has a clear constitutional argument to be made. Also, I was using it as a double entandre, one as to call the lawmakers and judges who support this bullshit mentally deficient, but also to say that the whole thing impedes progress, which is the very definition of the verb 'retard'.
If I had been using it derogatorily towards someone of actual diminished capacity, I would need to do better. These are supposedly competent elected and appointed officials. As long as they actively retard the growth of my country, I will freely and happily call them retarded.
Fair enough, I appreciate the well articulated response and agree with your usage, but you said it right here:
That's the unfortunate state of things due to years of people using the word derogatorily. I applaud you trying to bring it back to proper usage, just be prepared that you will continue to get responses like mine and I doubt they'll all be as considered as this was.
Thank you for your response anf kind acceptance.
It is actually a word that I have been endlessly frustrated with the changes socially to its use. When actually discussing mental deficiencies in a medical sense, the phrase "mentally retarded" is a rare apt terminology. It is "the state if being inhibited from further mental or cognitive progress", which fits the definition of the verb "retard" perfectly. I understand that socially it was widely used abusively and historically it has a dubious past medically at best, but linguistically it is perfect. I guess that is what frustrates me, because so few things in this world have such a linguistic, well, not perfection, but something to that effect. I guess my failure in words goes to rhetorically illustrate my point.
Welcome. I wasn't trying to stir the pot, just lookin' out for a fellow linguaphile.
This attitude doesn't really remove derogatory language, because idiots who want to be offensive just jump to stupid, new words, or else they turn words that we could previously use just fine into slurs.
/gestures the "ok" hand sign
Like that?
That would be an example, although I was thinking of something more relevant like people saying "accoustic" to insult autistic people.
That's a thing? Ugh
Man fuck Republicans
You can woman fuck them too if you feel up to it.
I think we should all just stop fucking them.
Isn't that what articles like this:
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/question-keeping-trump-loving-men-night-why-won-t-women-ncna1273594
Are about?
Redcaps be like: "why do women care about women's healthcare and the unprecedented corruption?"
Pretty much
isn't this like, explicitly anti HIPPA (or HIPAA since apparently medical acronyms suck)?
Shouldn't this be like, INCREDIBLY illegal?
Not like the Christians care but it also violates the fourth
ah yes, a classic, the fourth, i mean the forced amendment.
Silly commie. The 4th amendment is like the 3rd, 7th, and 8th. They’re all outdated silly things that are completely irrelevant to our modern world unlike the 2nd and certain interpretations of the 1st
The ruling specifically said items that aren't protected under federal mandate. When I deal with HIPAA (Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act) information, just about everything you can imagine in the record is protected if it can be paired with another piece of info and narrow down a person's identity. Scroll down to the 'Protected Health Information'
Hopefully that means they can deny just about every document... but I have no hope when it comes to courts and prosecutors in the states.
yeah no this definitely seems illegal then. There's no way asking for medical documents of trans people isn't going to reveal personal information about them, unless you're looking for fucking statistics?
Given those are the only documents this ruling entitles the AG to, it sounds like statistics are all he’s gonna get.
what a funny time to live in huh
HIPAA
No, they're referring to the Health Insurance Portability and Paccountability Act.
the p in hippa stands for accountability
I thought they were talking about that hungra, hungra animal from Africa.
Go sit in in a personal injury trial and see how worthless HIPPA actually is.
hipaa is one of the things of all time, that's definitely for sure.
But there are also things it's supposed to be doing, so.
The singling out of a group and taking away rights seems familiar. Something, Something, Something third Reich.
You’re just saying that because a certain government in Germany forcefully obtained a list of people who’d received gender affirming care. I wonder why the names on that list seem to not have been around in the 1950s
The names may have changed but boy does the current situation in the USA catch the spirit of it. Scapegoat one particular class and villainize them.
Well what I was trying to say is that those patients did not survive the Nazi regime. The famous photo of a Nazi book burning was an act of transphobia and homophobia.
Ah, miscommunication in that case.
More familiar than you think.
https://www.hmd.org.uk/resource/6-may-1933-looting-of-the-institute-of-sexology/
Remember this when someone tries to claim both sides are the same!
you should already know there are no more sides.
Fuck off with that nonsense. If you can't see the difference between an actual theocratic fascist party (who makes no attempt to pretend otherwise) and a milquetoast neoliberal party, you're either wilfully ignorant, misinformed, or here to spread disinformation.
It's the ruling class and their useful idiots vs. everyone else.
Guess who's winning...
everybody is a bigot and a fascists now you just need to disagree with what they say. its only ignorant, misinformed and disinformation when it does not align with your specific politics. that's why you need to be careful with saying shit like that it deludes the meaning of ignorant, misinformed ignorant and disinformation fascist and bigot too because nobody will take it seriously anymore and i just don't like the misusage of terms for your own political benefit. you delude the meanings of does words to your detriment.
You are misinformed.
best reply ever. im guessing this is how you mostly reply.
Sounds like exactly what a fascist would say. It's a lie that only benefits fascists, after all.
yes everything you don't like is fascists because you say so.
Not everyone I don't like. Everyone who says childish bullshit like "everyThING YoU dONn'T LiKE iS A faSCISt". Grow the fuck up you intellectual toddler.
dude that means the exact same shit confirming my reply. calling people names very classy this must mean you are winning and adult.
No one has ever seriously called me a bigot. It sounds like they have called you one. I wonder why that could be?
that just shows you have not used the internet very well and that your being disingenuous because people can say what ever fuck they want as you are showing right now. if you want to take everything seriously people call you that's your problem not mine.
I've been using the internet since 1989. How about you?
this only makes it worse. do you think just because you know the internet existed sins 1989 that it can not be that you have been doing it wrong. this is not an argument in your favor. your previous disingenuous reply was very funny i never take tactics like that very seriously.
Sorry, it makes it worse that I haven't been called a bigot in all that time? That's a badge of honor or something?
Do you think it's maybe just because I don't say bigoted things?
its makes it worse that you know the internet exists for that long and you have no clue how it works. because calling people bigots online is not argument its a distraction and you show this tactic very well. it show your ignorant or your just keeping dumb to show how virtues you are for internet cloud both are dumb. your Humble bragging is just funny.
So... I don't know how the internet works because no one has called me a bigot?
you don't know how it works because you are trying to seriously say again that calling random people names on the internet somehow means anything like its some kind of argument. its meaningless its a diversion to make you defend yourself instead of staying on the fucking point. as you have showed very well. i find it very funny how you like too sniff your own farts and the sniffing only gets harder and more intense.
oh you enlightened centrist, where’d you get so smart?
hey at least im not known for purging people for there political beliefs. also no need for calling people the worst thing they can be for political wins. and i can just have more fun. no need to sniff my own farts.
i’s just pokin a lil fun, mind
What isn’t covered by HIPPA?
I think that they are trying to use "Medicaid fraud" as a backdoor to access medical records. I mean, the AG is specifically saying otherwise but that's the loophole they will use to get these records.
Anything these fascists don't like while they're running their theocracy.
Reason I moved my family out of that y'all queda nightmare.
How did you escape?
I've fantasized, but I have no idea how, where or what country will even take poor queer people
Not them but I went to school in blue state and when I graduated I sold everything that I couldn't fit in a backpack. Got a job in a city, took the bus there, found an apartment on craigslist on the bus ride.
It was rough for a few months.
I read that as meaning Missouri specifically.
Best I can think of is applying to join a literal commune within the same country.
edit (20 hrs later): I forgot and used old terminology there. I don't know who'll see this, but the right term nowadays is "intentional community."
You can escape the south without leaving the country.
HIPAA is federal.
HIPAA protections are federal. Planned Parenthood won’t just turn over records that are protected by HIPAA.
It's funny that you think fascist give a shit about federal law, not like that don't have a history of ignoring federal statutes when they disagree with something.
*HIPAA
I think he should have to show his internet history.
At this point, I think that should be a requirement of every candidate during an election, except they'd all 'accidentally' clear it.
Six months from now: Republican AG subpoenas IKEA for BLÅHAJ purchase records.
Appreciate the context
It's disrespectful to alter someone's quote while providing no commentary outside of the quote. IMO.
The link added to the comment is my comment. Don't overthink it.
sweats nervously
Does anyone here with any experience in this field know what sort of information he could access that would be damaging to patients?
Tbh just names and addresses is bad enough. Find a way to make it public record and we're screwed. My guess is they'll start adding trans people to the sex offender registry, but I'm open to hearing other horrifying predictions about where this shit is going.
I grew up in a relatively conservative family, and this is exactly the kind of shit that would make perfect sense to my parents. My mother in particular bought every single damn dumb rumor she heard from rainbow parties, drugs in candy, jelly bracelet colors being what sex acts you've done. There were so damn many she managed to give me anxiety, only for me to find out like 15-20 years later that most of them were just retooled racism and/or homophobia. Figuring it out did not fix the anxiety.
For more of a work anecdote we once had someone call demanding to speak to a patient, and making various threats towards the secretary when she wouldn't confirm the patient's presence without their password (psychiatry, vulnerable population/stigma means an extra need for privacy). We found this person's interaction kinda sus and asked the patient about it and they said it was probably their ex and were vehement that this person not be allowed in or to even know they were there, which is fine because that's the default policy anyway (for a reason!).
Next night they call back sweet as pie and ask if the patient has been discharged. Our secretary that night didn't even know the background but is an absolute detail oriented queen that we all stan and said the exact same thing she would say if they were still there, no password no info. Which is good, because could you imagine if your domestic abuser knew you'd just left the nice safe locked and restricted unit? This patient was in and right back out faster than I could blink so I know so little about their actual specific story but it could also leak over into other areas of life other than direct safety, how about if they know you stayed at all and try to drag your mental health history into a custody agreement? Now think about what the government can do with info like that.
Republicans have recently been trying to push for the following two policies:
It's easy to see where this is going. This is one of MANY reasons the country won't survive another 4 years of Trump.
Technically this is a grey area and they are blatantly misusing the exception for court order/warrant rule. HIPAA just states that records must be turned over but doesn't get into details concerning how much or how little should be provided. I really can't believe the judge allowed this but I suspect (hopeful anyway)that this will get kicked up to a federal court since federal law supercedes state laws.
There needs to be a stay of enforcement if it's going to be appealed.
Though I fully suspect that if it gets to SCOTUS, there isn't going to be much hope.
Doesn't that precedent make it possible for medical records covering abortions to be used in the same way? Repubs would never allow that, they have too much to lose by having people find out what they've done.
Republicans would absolutely allow that. They are willing to bite their own noses off just to spit in their enemies faces.
How it would play out is selective prosecution where only
democratspoor people or non-whites get charged.White Christians would get a pass at best. Or blackmailed at worst.
Yeah, true. Their voters have zero integrity or consistency. And their propaganda networks will be pretending that voter fraud is happening as a cover so they'll never know in the first place.
It mostly depends on what he does with the information. Any personally identifiable information that becomes public puts someone at serious risk of being persecuted or physically threatened.
The statement from Planned Parenthood includes:
I suspect this means the AG may receive de-identified records including procedure or diagnosis information, but not including any patient identifying information such as patient or billing account, name, address, social, date of birth, date of service, etc.
It could also include aggregate information about providers and facilities, especially if records are obtained under the guise of a fraud investigation, allowing the AG to target locations and providers where patients frequently obtain specific services. That route might be the most harmful to patients, for ex. if they're unable to continue receiving care because of harassment of the providers.
100% this guy smokes poles on the DL.
This is why they insist that being gay is a choice. They themselves are gay and they have chosen to just live in the closet. Now that it's so much more accepted, they're spitefully trying to force others to endure the hardship they live every day. Their misery is lonely.
"Being gay is a choice" is something I had impressed on me by my mother. In a way she was right. For some of us, it's a choice between life and death.
Candy canes, not poles.
He's a creeper.
Another Grindr profile with no picture, and probably just “HMU” in the text portion.
I HAVE A WIDE STANCE
There is no such thing as a good conservative alive today. Conservatives bring only oppression and death. They are the enemy of humanity.
They are (and have always been) regressives but yeah.
Eh. I'm glad we have conservatives because I see how crazy liberals can be when they get there way with no pushback.
I think if liberals tried less to control people's thoughts, they would be more palatable to independents.
Is the mind-control "liberal" in the room with us right now?
Probably.
Just check the modlogs :P
Work towards peace, prepare for the inevitable.
SocialistRA.org
Little shit never leaves his enclave either.
He knows what will happen if he ever shows his face in KC or St. Louis.
Damn this is scary stuff.
What the hell? Seriously, living your life is too much to ask?
Probably just so he can wank to the pictures.
Me thinks someone has a secret affection for a certain group of people.
Yeah, I stopped with that line of thought ages ago. Regardless of whether it's true for any percentage of cases, they're still monsters causing massive amounts of damage and trauma to people just trying to exist. They've also shown us time and time again that hypocrisy is no barrier for them.
There's only one party that cares about hypocrisy and it ain't the fucking republicans.
Agreed.
I think it's only for minors, which is even weirder.
Conservatives love kids genitals these days
I'm from St. Louis so I keep up with local politics and shit. While you might find I disagree with most people on a lot of things, especially in the trans area of discussion, at no point do I think it's a good idea to put a politician in the same room as a doctor and a patient. That is all I am willing to say about that.
Does he have a license to practice medicine?
Don't trust any man in a suit especially if he looks like he wears one every day.
Missouri, Goddamn.
Rural Missouri holding the cities captive.
I'm not a fan of giving it to children, but adults should be able to do what they want with their bodies as long as they are not hurting anyone else.
Hi, you can believe what you want to believe, but I wish I pursued care when I was younger (began questioning at the onset of puberty) rather than transitioning at 25.
The most commonly used model is puberty blockers with parental consent up until 16 and then HRT only with parental consent at 16.
Forcing a child to undergo a puberty that they do not want, is cruel!
Children do not choose to transition because they think it's cool to do so. They still get bullied for it. At least set them up to have a more stable adulthood.
Why not?
Children are too easily manipulated, and I don't trust people to avoid coercing children that it's better to be trans.
Do you think children are more susceptible than adults? At what age are they less?
Absolutely.
It depends on the individual, but the general trend is that people become less susceptible to coercion as they become older and gain more life experience.
By that logic, are there any other things you'd be against allowing children to do or experience?
Yes.
Could you give a couple of examples?
No, but you can ask specifically.
This is such a stupid line of thinking. Trans people aren't Nazi's, they don't indoctrinate the youth.
Sorry, I've seen too much evidence to the contrary.
There are scumbags across all walks off life, and you'll start to realize this as you get older.
Funniest part of reading this all is that I am repulsed by trans folk. Sorry, that's just that. However I do believe that they should have the right to be. Like, just be - happy, yourself, who cares what others think/feel, they aren't kidnapping anyone to turn them trans, they are doing stuff to themselves only. Sheesh.
But I do still perceive myself in negative light due to that repulsion. And then I see news what happens in USA and I am like, whaaaa. Cuz even if I did act upon that repulsion, that's going weird way. Like, there's no any try at helping. It's not "Ew, unnatural, we need to fix their psyche" (WHICH IS EVIL) or "Ew, they need reaffirmation about their sex!" (...which is barely better). No, straight up "Trans should go on without any kind of help". Why? Wtf. xD
Edit: Hell, even worse. Trans should be persecuted for having feelings/perceptions not dependent on their own volition. Yay. Wtf is wrong with people.
I kind of appreciate the "I don't need to understand or like you to support" attitude, but repulsion is a strong reaction.
Have you ever reflected upon the why?
Especially if you don't like that reaction in yourself in the first place, as you say, maybe it would be worth working on it?
Hah, I tried, yes. I feel it as unnatural and wrong, not sure why, can't really track it to my enviro or anything so I just gave up on it. Especially that in the end it does harm to no one. It's funny though seeing all the dislikes. Also, just in case - person that replied to you earlier wasn't me.
I'm sorry I didn't notice it wasn't you, I must have been tired. Glad you got I wasn't trying to judge, I'm neurodivergent and sometimes my communication is a bit off.
Since you're aware of it and actually try not to let it sway you towards hate, I suppose it's not that big of a deal, though I'm not trans so I could easily miss something here. I'm sorry about the dislikes too, though I understand why people have no patience in this regard, it gets tiresome to always fight and having to justify existing. Most possibly stopped reading at repulsed.
I would be majorly annoyed in your place, which is part of the reason I asked, but I'm quite obsessive in figuring out my internal working.
Mind if I ask some more? I'm also obsessed with understanding how people in general work, but I don't mean to bother and I apologize if this comes off as pushy.
If I understand correctly, you feel it unnatural as a concept. Have you ever actually met trans people? Often you can't even tell, but I suppose I sort of understand it can be confusing when you can. I would like to understand how it gets from confusing to repulsive though. Maybe something about the general climate more than your specific environment? It got quite violent recently, maybe you're sensitive to it? I get you don't know yourself, and again if this bothers you I apologize and I'll stop.
Not a problem at all, written medium and Lemmy likes to shove a buttload of characters in header so it's actually quite hard to notice who you are responding to. ^^
And meh. I knew what I was getting into when I wrote my comment. Wanted to see if it's gonna go reddit way or some other way. Sad to see it going reddit way, but people are people I guess.
Well, I can pretty much tell you that I most probably didn't meet any IRL. My country is...let's say a little old timey in that regard. I think, alas I may be wrong, that if I meet and befriended some my strong reaction may lessen, though I think it wouldn't entirely dissapear. And again, I cannot track it to outside variables - wasn't raised in hateful enviro towards trans, didn't participate in community that hates trans, and I am not a right winger sooo...yeah. Lack of vectors that would be responsible of repulsion, at least outside ones. Now, inside ones...I observed I do have tendency of sticking to the rules and "should"s a little too much, so it may come from applying that to sex - gender connection. Especially that in my native language there isn't different word for gender - both sex and gender are the same word. So yeah. I am not confused about them however. There's nothing confusing there. They were born as sex X, but feel as gender Y, so they are distressed. And hell, most of them can be cured by physically altering sex. Nothing to be confused about. Still, for my emotional part at least, it's unnatural and repulsive.
I think you can notice that I do actually slightly obsess about knowing myself too lol. How else I am to move forward if not by learning what makes me tick, eh? ^^
Preach, friend.
I think I can start to see a picture here.
Your direct environment may not have been hateful, but from your description the entire cultural setting, from language to customs, implanted some bias toward what is right and acceptable, or natural. It's a strong influence, and it frames the entire reality unless one goes out of their way to challenge it, as you did. Kudos for that.
I agree that rationally nothing is confusing, but if you grow up with a substructure that implies things should be a specific way, your emotions will follow that framework.
I see that in my country as well, and in myself still sometimes, as much as I try to counter it.
I agree that meeting and getting to know a trans person would probably help in that, especially since consciously you already know how things work. It may be difficult for the trans person though, even if you don't intend it to be. I'm sure you already know.
Thank you for your answer, and good luck in your slight obsession :)
you can really pick out the redditers they really like pressing those arrows. its just a circle jerk its people who really like to jerk themself off.
Have you ever reflected upon the why? but you seem above that kind of thing. there are a lot of things in nature you are naturally repulsed by just because its strong does not mean its not a natural even uncontrollable reaction. but i guess framing the question fits you well. the whole repulsion is a strong reaction so it must just be you very bad person is just stupid.
I've never said you were a bad person for it.
You seem busy defending yourself from yourself, I'll leave you to it.
I'm not sure why I'm bothering, since you attacked me out of nowhere and presumed a lot. I'm curious, I suppose.
Have I reflected upon the why of what? I reflected upon a lot, both about myself and others. I'm never repulsed by people, I sometimes get weirded out but I'm aware it's on me and try to adjust. I'm repulsed by behaviours, when they're actively hateful or violent, but I try my best to stay kind. I'm human, so sometimes I fail at that. I'm severely annoyed by anything illogical, as many neurodivergent people are, and again I'm aware it's on me and try to manage. I'm not above anything human, no one is.
I'm aware emotional reactions are not entirely controllable, and that's fine as long as you're aware and don't let them control you, which the person I actually was talking to seems to be doing fine.
Is that what you wanted to know? What about what I said triggered you so much you actually invented what I meant? Repulsion is indeed a strong reaction, it just is, there's no inherent judgement about who feels it in recognising that.
attacked you its a reply on the internet. and you seem to have no problem with it yourself i don't really care its just text but it does make things more interesting. yes its what i wanted to know its very good. the whole repulsion is a strong reaction thing but hey i got a reply.
WTF is transgender care what is the difference with just old care everybody else gets nobody seems to talk about that. what exactly is meant with transgender care, is there like gay care lesbian care bi care and what would that even be
There absolutely is. Trans care is whatever care Trans people get. Just like women's care is the care women get, children's care is the care children get, along with elder care and care for the disabled. Unqualified "care" is the province only of white, gender conforming, AMAB men, preferably WASPs. You don't hear as much about it now, but "black healthcare" is what gave us the Tuskegee syphilis human experiment.
Anything these bigots and fascists can use to distinguish the kind of care the "other" receives from normal care is a way to demonize the other and justify making their costs higher and their services worse, less, or outright illegal.
women and children or elder care is only differentiated because different biological things happen. the same with female or male biology that's why you would focuses on that. trans is only a very small subset of that. you only say transgender care because you don't want to directly say what it actually is you are actually asking for. transgender care is used because it sounds better then asking for hormones and puberty blockers and after that surgery's. its to marked something with a more familiar term to make it more acceptable. some people want hormones and puberty blockers to be the only way in reducing dysphoria and a big part of that wants surgery to be the only way. calling everybody bigots and fascists because you disagree with someone only shows how weak your arguments are. it does not help your credibility and it only helps to reduce the impact and meaning of the words.
Do people think women's care only means hysterectomy and radical mastectomy? Does elder care only mean euthanasia? The problem isn't that the term obfuscates particular procedures, because the particular procedures any patient receives are none of your fucking business. It's that it's used to hide assumptions that support demonizing the target group.
There are absolutely biological differences that influence what the standard of care ought to be, but that distinction only matters in policy because bigots and fascists need lines of division so they can restrict target classes from accessing healthcare.
If you want to have a conversation about puberty blockers, you can have that conversation. I think it's a complicated subject. This issue is a problem because you want "trans care" to mean the least credible, most socially objectionable course of treatment for a target class of "less than" citizens you can imagine, whereas others just want healthcare. And whatever care that is is up to the patient and their doctor.
because women's care and elder care don't only mean hysterectomy and radical mastectomy and euthanasia that's the whole point of doing it in that way because you cant really know what is really meant because it involves a lot more. its just more common in does groups of care. trans care means exactly what i said it means and its used to make it sound better you can only dream of wanting to use it in any other way like women's care and elder care.
What do you propose to reduce dysphoria other than gender affirming care? Y'all talk a big game but you have no alternatives that aren't abjectly cruel whilst being entirely ineffective.
gender affirming care is the exact same thing. i do no maybe mental problems should be treated firs and maybe go too a mental health professional instead of doing body altering drugs and surgeries. that would be my radical alternative you know more radical than taking body altering drugs and surgeries. maybe im just extremist.
Trans people... Get mental healthcare? Not sure what you're suggesting here. Are you aware that hormones and surgery, for those who desire them, are the most effective treatment available for trans people? Are you aware that basically no other surgery has a regret rate as low as trans surgeries do?
for those who desire them oh really what mental healthcare did they get? i don't think that's how it works for hormones and surgery's. i get it because i want to get it like your taking a fucking mint no serious Medical procedure works like that. i think you live in a fantasy world and you seem very invested. because no rationale person would seriously say this.
You really are talking out of your ass. Have you ever actually looked into how trans care works? Because mental healthcare is very much a part of it.
Maybe we live in fantasy world, but you definitely live in propaganda world.
fantasy world is still worse its not real. propaganda world at least you can try and change.i guess you have your own better sounding definition of trans care good for you but its just yours and its a small one because you have not said anything about the rest.
So, you don't know what you're talking about, obviously, as one of the requirements for bottom surgery is three letters of recommendation, one of which has to be from a therapist working with the prospective surgery recipient for at least a year. Kind of seems like you are very invested in a fantasy world, rather than learning the shape of reality.
you did say hormones and surgery, for those who desire them. you did not say anything about requirements .you where only talking about how awesome these treatments are was that shaping your own reality. requirements seems like something you should start with for someone who knows so much.
Point is, you should maybe do some research into what you're talking about before having an opinion. I happen to know what the process involves for someone going through it, and what the outcomes are like for various alternatives. Transitioning is what helps trans people who want to transition. Nothing else is as effective, and we have decades of data from clinical practice to support that.
ah yes educate yourself because your opinion is not valid. even here you are just talking about your own feelings. yes very cherry Pict studies that obviously support everything you say and if it does not there done by bigots and they should not be used. Transitioning is what helps trans people who want to transition i really love this circular argument its Presuppositional trans argument
Trans people who don't want to transition... Shouldn't be forced to transition? I don't understand your stance here.
And yes, filling a survey from a site for parents denying that their kid could possibly be trans, is a lousy place to get a fair dataset on trans people. Is there a reason you think that the majority of studies are biased, and the majority of practitioners in the field are pro affirming care?
Your beliefs fail to comport with reality. If I had beliefs like that, I would want to update them to better do so. Can you provide evidence that my belief that "medical care for trans people who want it is the best route" is incorrect?
You're being evasive, specifically what treatments are you talking about? Everything from conversion therapy to electric-shock treatments have been attempted in the past without success.
no i just don't like to repeat myself its in my other posts.
What mental healthcare specifically are you talking about? Everyone would ideally be getting mental healthcare. So what additional steps are you suggesting be taken with regards to trans people? Are you arguing against informed consent or for a different standard of care entirely? I cannot tell from your other posts what you actually support, only what you're opposed to.
So "Trans care" is a unique thing. There is some care that overlaps with the idea of "everyone else care" that is withheld from trans people by specific barriers of perceived sex. Like if a cis man is experiencing routine testicular pain getting them removed is a very different conversation in a doctor's office than a trans person who wants them removed for endocrinology reasons. The surgery is the exact same for both groups however. Mastectomy too tends to be very easy for cis women to get if they have a history of cancer in the family and want to play it safe rather than a trans person who wants their boobs gone because they have been binding them down whenever they can for mental health reasons. Same surgery but the non-trans option gets the fast pass. A lot of places you need the sign off of having years going to a mental health professional who vouches for you before that barrier is removed. Any surgery that has a "gendered" component usually has an extra barrier if you as a sex generally outside of the regular percieved demographic and is elective.
Then there is care that is more specific to trans people (though cis exceptions sometimes apply). Cross sex application of horomones for a feminizing or masculinizing, facial feminizing surgery where the bones of the skull are shaved down, vaginoplasty or phalloplasty (bottom surgery) tend to be mainly the domain of a history of research of medicine application specifically in the interests of trans people. Cis people aren't terribly likely to chase these options.
Then you get issues with cis medical bias. "Trans Broken Arm" syndrome exists where uninformed or bigoted doctors forcefully stop someone's horomonal regime sending them into menopause-like states of distress needlessly for things that a difference between the sexes endocrine systems do not effect. Or, because they are uninformed in the other direction they give bad dosages based on birth sex (trans people using horomones actually react to medications based in their hormonal makeup and fat distribution - not their birth sex characteristics) because of basically ignorance or bigotry where they refuse to treat trans people effectively because of what their beliefs a woman or man is rather than the actual medical best practice.
Lots of extra barriers for trans people tend to exist in seeking all types of medical care. Trans medicine is simultaneously a unique field of scientific study, a practical use of medicine for a specific targeted treatment, a philosophy of bodily autonomy and series of patchwork legal issues that can restrict options that could be applied to anyone by basing it's availability on sex.
trans care is only unique in that its trying to get shit by calling it trans care. and not i want hormones and puberty blockers and if i can a surgery. that is the primary reason its called trans care to piggy back of something that is already establish and associate it as the same thing. lets just not forget this is all just for appearance the opposite of something like cancer so what could be the mystery of one being harder to get then the other. hormonal makeup and fat distribution is based on your gender.
"All for appearance" is a common way trans health is dismissed as not being valid... But it is a cis gender bias that does not recognize how a difference of how one is perceived can so negatively effect one's experience.
Let's put the trans experience to the side for a moment.
The idea of vanity is seductive isn't it? The idea that a desire beautiful is shallow. That we should place no value on our appearance because it's fleeting and empty. The idea that wanting to appear anyway other than whatever is natural is morally defunct.
Yet if you are ugly by a society's measure people literally treat you as lesser. Some will bend over backwards for a beautiful person and deny their time and consideration to people who are not pretty. It's harder to find work, harder to be promoted, if you are past the point into what is considered "disfigured" there are people who react to your very presence as being inappropriate for children or treat you as something sub human. There can be advantages to being reasonably ugly as a lot of people essentially ignoring you can be preferred to being showed by attention as beauty comes with it's own layers of issues and lack of privilege.
What we look like holds an incredible amount of power as to how our daily experience is shaped. It influences how comfortable we are in public, how confident we are dealing with strangers what doors open and which are slammed in our faces. We are regularly are told appearances shouldn't matter and treat then as trifling issues to be dismissed and then are thrown into the world where experience shows that is absolutely not the case.
Half the issue on the trans side of things is we are told that appearances shouldn't matter but when we don't pass as cis people on casual inspection we face harassment, lack of privilege and people denying who we are and calling us things people know will hurt us. We are told by the hordes of strangers we have to face we are not "real" and thus are just pretending if we haven't medically transitioned as our social transitions are "not enough". When that becomes unbearable we are told we are shallow for wanting not to face crippling social anxiety and told it is a moral failing to want beauty... But most of us aren't aiming for beautiful. We just want to be a kind of invisible that cis people take absolutely for granted. If we are left with no place of comfort, starved for human connection on our terms a lot of us die. And yet it's a moral failure to want to look like anything but whatever random roll of the dice we got so our deaths aren't counted as being because of how we appear. It's chalked up as being more nebulously about how "being trans is hard" and why is it hard? Because of shallow thoughtless people who refuse to judge us on anything but what our bodies look like. Sometimes at the level of DNA because that's suddenly all they choose to care about.
i can see you are very very very invested in this. appearances always matters its biology you can only lessen how much it matters. but don't really know how much that matter for trans people because of course its not only just appearances its the whole body that's a big difference now you need to take that part into account too. and there is such a thing as passing you can try and down play that all you want but that will never go away. like i know there are differences some people pass better then others but your still dealing with biology so i don't think its something you can ever get away from. and i do think there are definitely people who make it worse for the rest like some people obviously just want attention and feel special because now they have something to build there whole superficial identity around there are levels of this from a fat guy in dress and wig to an internet influencer who does it for cloud. for the most part i don't care about what people do when there adults that's your business. i just don't like the ideology around it like trans women are women why use trans then i can never take something like that seriously so willfully ignored to realty i have no respect for that. and it definitely does not incentivize me to have respect for people like that. like i can accommodate you but after something like that i don't really feel the need. not really a good way to earn the respect of people that's not how respect works the pronouns is the same thing. also just saying give hormones and surgeries to everybody who asks for it seems crazy to me. something that involved should never work like that. that is just asking for problems just imagine how that can be abused or go wrong. no other body altering drugs or surgery would work like that. i also do think unless we can create a clone of you but change it to the gender you want and put your brain in that body there will always be inbuilt problems that come along with being trans there is no way around that.
Trans people do not ask to be physically perfect. We understand the limitations of what is possible and weigh the consequences carefully. So much of the discourse treats our medical care as a problem...but a problem to whom? It isn't your body, it isn't your risk and we the people making these decisions are doing so in a way that the medical community agrees demonstrates a rational approach to a real problem. It's not a conventional rationale from a cis perspective because cisness is a different experience. Trying to explain being trans to a cis person is like trying to explain color theory to the blind - They can understand it and see the rationality of it explained carefully enough but it is an experience so fundamentally different from their lived reality that it at the end of the day comes down to humility. Can you accept that people exist who experience life completely differently than you and have solid perceptions and understandings about themselves and are still rational human beings? Or do you place yourself and your "ick" factor as all important. You may be the center of your universe but everyone is. You do not have to experience our lives but we do, so step aside and let us live.
At the end of the day most of us do not require your buy in. Unless you are someone important to us like a parent or a sibling, a trusted friend or a lover what you believe about us in your heart of hearts is your business and doesn't hurt us unless you decide to be outwardly cruel. But if you decide that for whatever reason you understand us better than we understand ourselves and decide to make our choices for us... you BECOME our problem.
maybe some trans people are not the best representatives of trans people because some want the craziest shit possible and it seems to me they are distorting everything. ;But if you decide that for whatever reason you understand us better than we understand ourselves and decide to make our choices for us... you BECOME our problem,- this seems unfalsifiable you are essentially saying its my feeling so you just have to follow what i say and you cant criticize me because its my feelings when feeling are the most unreliable sense there is. this precludes any rationale or evidence against your feelings because everything is based on your feelings not reality. the medical community seems exceptionally compromised in this aria because a lot it is based on feelings and you don't want to be a bigot do you. to the point that people doing studies that some trans activists don't like get protested so no real research gets done that might go against your feelings this all seems very dangerous to me and a recipe for disaster. i accept that people can have different experiences that is life but i also accept reality like your example of explaining color to the blind when they are blind from birth of course. even if they cant see color it still exists even if they feel it does not it does not matter what a blind person does they will never be able to change this reality no matter what they do. reality does not depend on feelings or your lived experiences. if you want to be believable you need something outside your feelings. and that is the biggest difficulty because its all very subjective outside drugs and surgeries themselves its why you should get them.
What is the "craziest shit possible" and which groups are supporting it? "Someone on Twitter said something and got two likes" isn't very interesting here.
What evidence do you have that the medical field is compromised? What evidence would convince you otherwise?
Depression is about feelings, too. Should we tell people with depression to fuck off it's fake no assistance for you?
ah yes i need proof and you can just say some shit. you are doing the exact same shit im doing no difference at all. i will just keep doing what i was doing just like you. i will just ignore your debate tactics. yes Depression is about feelings and they will not be able to get appearance altering surgeries in that state. the depression thing is not helping your argument.
Actually, depressed people aren't barred from getting a rhinoplasty, or a boob job, or lip filler, so I'm not sure what the point you're making is. You haven't provided any evidence. I also haven't, yet. If I did, would you care, or would you blow it off? Things you've said to me so far suggest that any research I provide will be called woke and captured and lies, so I haven't bothered. If there's a point, I'm happy to. You've just explicitly said things that make me doubt there is.
Access to hormone replacement therapy or puberty blockers if they've obtained the proper consent from parents or medical professionals (I think there's an AND in there, that they have to get both, varies by state but I'm not positive and haven't looked in years), gender affirming care falls under that too so potentially any consultations in regards to reducing dysphoria.
I had typed out a long response detailing what transgender care is, why it's different from "old care" that "everyone" gets, and why you're uninformed. I even had https://genderdysphoria.fyi/ lined up as a website to help you learn more.
But I have eyes and I am literate. I am able to read how you respond to others.
You're a cunt and you don't deserve the basic respect you deny others constantly. I will not sit here and debate my existence with you and I don't think anyone should take you seriously in any way. If you have such a problem with trans people, consider gouging your eyes out and piercing your eardrums with a pencil yourself so you no longer need to perceive us.
debate your existence is that what you think we are doing. you think very highly of yourself. i was talking about very specific shit like giving hormones and surgeries to kids not adults. i even said if you are an adult i don't give a fuck what you do as long as you don't make it my problem. kids is making it everybody's problem. if you want to make that into i hate trans people that is your problem not mine. making everybody you disagree with into demons is not going to ever help you. respect is earned not given. being trans is not a shield from criticism.
Like I said, I can read. Gaslighting doesn't work when there's receipts. Fuck yourself.
yes you can read what you want to hear and that's not my problem.are we not nice who would not want to join you. lets hope you never complain about mean words on the internet.