JD Vance opposes military aid, NATO membership for Ukraine. He's now Trump's VP pick
kyivindependent.com
Vance is one of Trump's most vocal supporters and an outspoken critic of U.S. aid to Ukraine.
. . .
Vance has said that it would be "completely irresponsible" for Ukraine to join NATO. He has also argued for the U.S. to focus solely on preventing Chinese expansion, even if that means sacrificing sovereign Ukrainian lands to Russia.
"Any peace settlement is going to require some significant territorial concessions from Ukraine, and you're gonna have a peace deal, because that's the only way out of the conflict," Vance said in February.
Yes, that's kind of a pre-requisite to being on Putin's payroll...
He's clearly on Peter Theil's payroll. Theil personally bankrolled Vance's senate campaign and was the only one Theil funded that was successful.
If you keep making up conspiracy theories that every Republican takes orders from Putin, you're going to miss their actual agenda. Shit like Project2025 isn't Putin's agenda. Thats a Koch project. Theil's got his own techno libertarian eugenicist project that Vance is an acolyte of.
Meme candidates gonna meme
Another Russian stoogie.
Not everyone who disagrees with war or your position on it is deep throating Putin.
But someone that blatantly argues for Russia's benefit probably has some ulterior motives. Doesn't have to be deep throating Putin, money will probably do.
I mean it sounds like he wants chea p Russian labor and goods to compete with Chinese versions of the same.
He's a Republican. He just wants to personally get rich and doesn't consider or care what happens to other people on the way to it. Sacrificing half a country that isn't his so that an oligarchy can turn around and sell back the oil, gas and coal of the land and potentially farm goods at a cheaper slave labor produced price sounds like shrewd business practice to him probably and figures it would get him on the good side of Putin a man with powerful connections.
He misses the mark that China and Russia are working together and you can't really separate that to get one to hurt more than the other. But that's getting to much in the weeds of his plans.
I know it's hard but people generally aren't some evil spy or some terrible monster aiming to cause destruction. A lot are just people. Self centered and uncaring of the pain they cause and sure they didn't do anything wrong cause it was supposed to work out for them. People don't need to get paid first to be awful.
I'm not Republican.
Everyone uses third person pronouns to refer to Vance and the suddenly you can't figure it out when faced with a counter argument?
Really? Are you for real?
They have Putin's cock firmly up their ass but they tell themselves it's just a turd.
Some of them just hate Ukranians for no reason?
Not wanting to fund a war doesn't mean they hate Ukraine or it's citizens.
Okay, let me walk you through this.
You see a kid down on the floor being kicked by a bully.
Your 'solution' is to not intervene, because you're 'against violence' ?
Fucking logic.
Right!
Except the kid is across the world, and we don't know them very well. Last we heard, they were one of the worst children in the world. Instead of asking the neighbors to pool money to build a boat to go save this kid, you go to all your neighbors and steal that money.
Fuckin' a logic.
Oh, so you do hate the kid.
That clears it up, thanks.
You're welcome, glad you could put more words in my mouth.
I'm surprised there's any space left in that mouth of yours.
oh yeah, it's .world time
This presupposes he believes in anything. I haven’t read it because everyone said it was garbage but I’m pretty sure he wrote his memoir about “Appalachia” when he grew up near Dayton, OH.
He also cosplayed a poor person to speak to rich people about how "We poor people have horrible habits!" in what I can only refer to as a minstrel show for the privileged.
That's a pretty good description.
He also cosplayed a poor person to speak to rich people about how "We poor people have horrible habits!" in what I can only refer to as a minstrel show for the privileged.
I haven't read it either. There is however a If Books Could Kill episode about it that is very worth listening to.
I find it weird that his teacher pushed him to write his memoires in college. Who writes his memoires this early and why would a teacher push him to?
I read it. It was not garbage, it contains useful insights. I recommend that people read it to understand politics. BUT, NOTE, CAVEAT: Approach it with your critical thinking cap on. The author is an unreliable narrator, which is unorthodox in a work of non-fiction.
"Unreliable narrator [...] in a work of non-fiction" is a fascinating way to say, "liar".
I've been on the outside observing this escalating shit show for 8 years now and I think I've finally reached the point where I don't even have the words to convey what I feel about the current state of American politics.
I mean, I know there's a lot of history behind it etc., but just the past months? I don't even..
I hope shit gets better for ya'll, I sincerely do.
It's just fascism, volks.
Don't worry. It won't. As an American, I too have reached that point as well.
Still rooting for all the millions of you that I know are awesome people, but ..yeah.
Don't worry about it, a lot of us in the US feel the same. I'm just tired, boss.
Putin is behind all of it
He's not. He didn't put a gun to the head of the judges que made the president immune to prosecution. He didn't punt a gun to the politicians denying climate change. He didn't call on Trump's followers to storm the US capitol. All of that was the US and it's people.
Putin was probably just cheerleading his puppets as it all happened. But make no mistake, seeds only grow in fertile soil.
I'm Finnish, so if there's one thing I'm aware of it is Putin and his various machinations.
HERE COME THE FUCKING TANKIES
Tankies hate JD Vance too. The only reason he wants peace in Ukraine is to start shit with China. We tankies don't want to make peace in one place just to fight somewhere else, we want peace and deescalation all over the globe.
Okay that's cool, what about Iran, Russia, China, and North Korea, out there starting shit with everyone?
If you just give them what they want, they go away. Simples 🤦
Appeasement. 60% of the time it works every time.
...which is basically enabling imperialism.
It's wild how eager people are to look at the exact same people who lied us into Iraq and Afghanistan and say, "Yeah, I trust them to have the people's best interests at heart when they lead us into another conflict."
Not everybody on Lemmy is American and bound to American news. Some of us live near russia and know first-hand about what it is and what it isn't.
I know, you americans are really good at "doing your own research".
Not everyone who went into Iraq or Afghanistan was an American either, the leaders of plenty of other countries supported it too.
Also we're talking about American politician JD Vance and what he wants to do regarding US foreign policy, so the history of US foreign policy is obviously relevant.
I'm not talking about JD Vance. I'm talking about very convenient to tankies and ruskies "we want peace and deescalation" when Ukraine is devoured by an imperialist, authoritarian shithead.
But again, you're a self-proclaimed tankie, of course your gobbling authoritarian dick.
Can't think of a time in history where both sides in a war didn't claim it was about defense and security, whether it was or not. I remember when they said "Either we fight them over there or we'll have to fight them here," and went off to kill a million people in the Middle East, and then they lost, and now, where are all the terror attacks they said would happen? I remember too (though I'm not old enough to have lived through it) when they said if we didn't go out and kill 4 million people in Vietnam, they'd keep expanding all over and eventually we'd be fighting them here. Well, we lost that one too, and nothing bad happened afterward. So forgive me if I'm just a little bit skeptical of the latest pretext for pouring ridiculous sums of money into the pockets of defense contractors so the rich can get richer while our schools, roads, and hospitals decline further and further into dysfunction.
I am a tankie, yes, because tankies seem to be the only people interested in spending less money on tanks and more on human wellbeing.
I always thought that "we want peace" and "stop the war" people were always the biggest morons alive. At least the people who support russian terrorism own up to it. They are intentionally evil.
After watching so many events unfold, Ukraine getting annexed, women and children raped, children separated from their parents and deported, Bucha massacred, schools and hospitals bombed, for no reason other than imperialsm, you dare to 'both sides bad' this.
From the bottom of my heart, fuck you.
So, now when Ukraine is annexed, etc., you're advocating for "stopping war". Which, unexpectedly, completely aligns with the wishes of terrorists. Oh, how convenient!
I'm not the one who wants all that to continue. How many more lives must be senselessly thrown into a meat grinder just to move a line on a map?
If you care so much about it, why don't you go volunteer yourself? Ah, but you don't want that, what you want is for people to drive around, grabbing people off the street, and forcing them to fight your battles against their will. Because you don't actually care one bit about the people's wellbeing, you want to use them in pawns of the Great Game, which you seem to mistakenly believe benefits anyone outside of the 1%.
Anyway you're not going to have any luck with that terrorist line. That's literally the exact thing that they said about Iraq and Afghanistan, "You're either with us or with the terrorists," I've heard that shit my whole life. I wasn't with them then and history has validated that completely. We'll see how many people have to die this time before the liberals finally realize that war is bad, yes, even this time.
You're literally blaming the victim for war it did not started.
Somehow, in your head, defending what's rightfully yours is senseless killing.
What you don't, "surpsiringly", seem to want is for russian terrorists to pack their shit and go to back to their shithole. Nah, "that's impossible".
In your dumb head surrendering to the imperialist bottomfeeder authoritarian is the only way towards peace. Which will last as long as the moron decides he wants more land and more suffering.
Again, the "peace" people are like the most brainless, who can't seem to think one little step ahead. But of course, this "peace" is very convenient to the usurper which has not occupied the lands, and don't really want to struggle to keep them.
Tankies continue to live up to their absolutely boneheaded image.
The war can end any second, if russia stops attacking and terrorising Ukraine and leaves it's rightful lands according to international law. Go be a keyboard activist about that.
I could not give less of a shit about Ukraine's "rightful lands." No, it's not worth ordinary people dying to preserve the land of a reactionary state.
It's so ridiculously easy to fool you into supporting wars. Literally the exact same playbook every single time and you'll fall for it every single time. "We have to stop them here or they'll keep coming," heard it all before. Where are all the 9/11s, now that we lost in Afghanistan? It was bullshit then and it's bullshit now. Some of us are able to learn from history. It's unfortunate that others refuse to learn and keep repeating the same mistakes over and over.
It's very funny that you call me a keyboard warrior, I still haven't heard your excuse for why you believe in drafting others against their will to fight for a cause you believe in, while you cower at home. Almost as if you don't actually care about the well-being of Ukrainians at all 🤔
Without tankies this place wouldnt exist, so yea we are gonna be here
It must be hard for the Tankies that developed Lemmy that most users dislike their communities.
It's a shame that a regressive and thoughtless fringe ideology is attached to the project.
But make no mistake, Tankies didn't invent federated social media or ActivityPub, they wrote a single piece of software. If it wasn't Lemmy, it would be Kbin or some other project.
If the Tankies keep it up, they might find their software doesn't get much funding or community attention, so there's no reason to convince yourself that this place will continue to exist as a Lemmy-centric network.
Lol this passive aggressive nonsense is the most american thing in this thread. If you people dont stop having your own opinion, us white folk might just stop funding your little projects! How big and important you are, we definitely wouldnt want to offend you.
I'm not going to be passive aggressive about it, there's a simple reality at play here.
Lemmy is FOSS, so the moment that these tankies try to give themselves some backdoor or whatever to gain undue influence over the system, it will be discovered, forked and everyone will switch and they will be left out in the cold with nothing.
Maybe that'll happen, maybe it won't. Maybe they'll get sick of only running pariah instances and take their ball and go home, except we can make a copy of their ball and keep going.
That's why I'm happy to use the system, it's an open ecosystem and no individual developer has the power to torpedo it, even if they are the founders. Their authoritarian tendencies can't do that much damage in the long run.
I was more talking about how you made it sound like the founders of lemmy are upset with the user base of it as a whole, and then said they are fake founders anyways because the real work was done before them by others, and then said if they keep it up (never said what they were doing to begin with) SOME PEOPLE wink**wink will stop supporting them financially.
Its just dripping with self importance and arrogance. Its an extremely american thing to assume that your viewpoint is the only valid and logical one.
You have me confused with someone else.
How very like a tankie to be unable to follow the basic and obvious facts of a situation. That's necessary to become a tankie.
Yeah I assumed the person defending the OP was the OP, my bad. What's your excuse for being an asshat? Internet tough guy? You sound so big and in charge when you talk like that you know. Do you talk to strangers like that in person too? Can you share your other qualities so I can copy them? You are obviously an amazing person so please help me.
I'm not seeing anywhere you're explaining that I'm wrong about anything here, so there's nothing to respond to.
Unless... oh no. I'm being insulted. Better defend myself in the eyes of this internet rando.
Call it even I suppose.
Without fascism you would not exist either.
Putins favorite, JD Vance.
What's the lead time on T-shirt printing these days?
Should I get the "Hang JD Vance" shirts printed now so I've got them ready to sell, or wait until Trump inevitably turns on him?
Vance is going to push Trump down a flight of stairs his first five minutes in office. He's going to invoke the 25th amendment so fast it'll make your head spin.
The guy has absolutely no interest in being VP and his buddies in Silicon Valley are already chomping at the bit for a Techbro Coup. He's not going to wait 3 hours much less 3 days.
The concept of a Techbro coup is so fucking absurd to me. Like I can recognize it as a threat, but also I suspect it would last a whole of five seconds until you have a pile of Techbro corpses. Mostly cause Techbros are the dumbest motherfuckers and only have soft power, add on to the fact that nobody fucking likes them and well theres a good chance theyd be mulched.
Plenty of the coups in Latin America and the Middle East during the 50s and 60s were sponsored by these bean-counters and their billionaire buddies working out of various right-wing think tanks. The Chicago School of Business produced legions of these fuckers and flew them out from Mexico City to Santiago to Brasília. The Saudi Crown Prince MBS has absolutely inundated himself with these freaks in his quest to build the world's most technologically advanced shopping mall. New Zealand is currently drowning in Techbro fascism, after their local media was hijacked by the far right and the residents talked into electing a white nationalist government.
Hell, states like California and Texas and Florida are already thick with these ghouls. That's a big reason why our energy prices are skyrocketing in these states. Techbros build these enormous power-hog data centers and jack up the price of electricity for everyone else.
They have a great deal of institutional power through contracts with federal and state governments. They're embedded deep in the post-War on Terror panopticon and own huge stakes in private media, so they get to dictate a lot of what we see and hear while distorting public outcries and SWATing political dissidents.
Techbros aren't the brightest, but cops are way dumber and more easy to manipulate. And as our domestic budget increasingly becomes "Oops! All Cops!" that means obedience to the Techbro Establishment is how you make money and keep your job, especially as law enforcement.
That's huge leverage in a system that already favors extremist ultra-nationalist white supremacy.
Dont take my amusement as dismissal, its foolish to underestimate ones enemy. Everything you said is decently true, hell I should know my great grandfather helped run the proto Techbros out of the region back in the 70s. No the weakness of the fascistic Techbro is that they are inherently institutional, anything that works outside of it or doesnt follow procedures is inherently at an advantage against them. Do you really think Musk or Thiel consider that someone may just blow them up with a car bomb or shoot them point blank with a 12 gauge?
Their power is drawn from the institutions making them inherently a secondary power behind the actual fascist leadership. They have influence dont get me wrong, but it is unlikely that they could hold a fascist government together. The fascist respects strength, but the Techbros have none. They hide behind laws, money, and influence.
That's just fascism generally speaking. You either liberalize or you fail. A paranoid personality cult of an administration can't last long without people Operation Valkyrie-ing each other, as evidence by Trump's ear going missing last weekend.
But in the meantime, you get to restructure the liberal order so that your people are in charge when the dust settles.
The point I am trying to make is that to even get to the point where they can set shit up for the future they first must get past the first hurdle of consolidation. Very few Techbros can develop the personality cult required, even the ones with a personality cult are still not strong enough in personality to grow it, look at musk for an example. They are dangerous but mostly as the backers of a fascist, by themselves theyre less dangerous than a sleep deprived redneck with a shovel.
That's why they introduce guys like Vance, though. He's a great front-man for the operation because liberals continue to treat him as just another moderate midwestern politician. And he's proven his star power, with his movie and book deal.
I guess we'll see...
Yeah I feel like we agree and its just down to specifics and minutia at this point. Good discussion though dude.
I think you're taking "coup" here too literally. Its implied that it'll be a political coup, not an actual violent one.
3 to 10 days. Quantity? Colors? Cotton weight ?
Picture of him.
DON'T MISS
Its very easy to see that Putin is running the GOP.
At this point it looks like they are competing on who in the GOP can suck up to the russians the most
Oh look, he shaved his beard for Daddy Trump. Wouldn't want Dear Leader to disapprove of your facial hair now would we, Jay Dee?
He has to continue his twink transition. He's obviously the bottom in this relationship.
Can you imagine this clown being president when the rapist with 34 felonies is deemed unfit for office or has a McHeartattack?
I'm not complaining. Only way I'd be happier with his VP pick is if he took up Rubio and forced him to give up Florida.
Vance is also a snake and he'll backstab the orange man at some point most likely.
Vance is a cuck. He was a harsh critic of Trump until he wasn't.
I don't see how Vance gets Trump any extra votes. They appear to attract the same kind of people.
If they win, it gets Vance out of my state. Which is fine (I voted for Tim Ryan).
Vance is there so Trump can scapegoat him for handing Putin everything he wants, that's about it.
Politics aside, are we shaming people for their sexual kinks now, if they're not harming anybody?
Those who want to ban my kinks should not have theirs respected
Unless their kink id humiliation, then theyre 100% valid
Ordinarily yes, but the second you try to ban porn or gay people, your fetishes no longer deserve respect and neither do you.
The joke was that people with a humiliation kink would want to be disparaged, so "respecting" them is giving them not what they want
Yes.
I'll give you whatever answer you want in the hopes you'll go away.
Funny that you think people like J.D. Vance aren't harming people...
Fuck off.
This is Trump's exact stance as well. He's been VERY clear about this, but idiots in the conservative camp seem to deliberately ignore it.
how does he always look like he's like 3 days into a binge drinking session?
🤮
Does J stand for Junk?
JustSuckingPutinsCock
I thought the maggots wanted to leave NATO.
They do, but they also don't want other people in it, either.
Wait why isn't Mike pence vp? Am I OOTL?
Umm, very. Look up "hang Mike Pence"
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/05/25/trump-expressed-support-hanging-pence-capitol-riot-jan-6-00035117
The article says he supported Biden winning. Oh noooooo a fair and equal election, no wayyy
Oh no, the guy said no to Trump refusing to break the law during the January 6th "oopsie treason failed uprising" so he burned that bridge.
Can't have people blatantly respecting democracy and the rule of law, that's not how the possible future felon-in-chief rolls. (But yet somehow it's the democrats inciting violence against him, hum.)
I didn't know that India was big into Hitler. But now his wife's actions make more sense.
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2017-12-14/ty-article/hitlers-hindus-indias-nazi-loving-nationalists-on-the-rise/0000017f-f880-d460-afff-fbe61fe20000
This is a very BJP / Mohdi / Hindutva thing. Not India as a whole but it is popular enough. These Hindutva people also unironically praise Israel and Zionism. They see Israel as they ethno-state model they want to be, plus they both hate Muslims. (The Israeli response to this "fuck off, you're more brown than arabs")
Hey but both sides suck and it's not worth voting this year.
All I need to see is that beard / haircut
And the eyeliner
Good. No more war. No more foreign aid. We need to focus on Americans and America.
Last time we did that we had 2 world wars back to back
Can you expand on that? Seems conflicting.
A policy of no war, no foreign aid and especially focusing on America and everything in it.. how did that lead to world wars?
I'll answer the "why would it now lead to disaster" part, and by shuffling names, places, & contexts around I believe much of that can be obliquely backported to the same question with respect to runup to the world wars of yore.
USA's multi-decade cultural imperialism and dogged pursuit of economic hegemony led to it imposing itself as a global barometer and gatekeeper (despite being famously incompetent at both). The upshot is that now, even though philosophically it would be wonderful for the US to finally stop enforcing a petrodollar-driven serfdom on so much of the world in the name of "infinite (US economic) expansion", pragmatically speaking a magical and abrupt "pull out" would be wildly irresponsible, much like yanking an arrow out of a wound in the direction from which it entered (causing a Jackson Pollock's worth of collateral damage). That would largely be because the sudden power vacuum would not be able to be filled in time by other countries (who are under-resourced due to aforementioned hegemonic squeezing), leaving not enough people to "not tolerate the intolerant", leading to explosive expansion of the "ignorant bullies masquerading as politicians" brigade (not unlike Hitler's opportunistic power-grab while the politicians who should have been the ballwark against him hubristically sat on their hands). See: https://www.ournationalconversation.org/post/explaining-the-paradox-of-tolerance
Well, the U.S. doesn't have to worry about enforcing the petro-dollar, because the Global South is pulling away from the petro-dollar. The U.S. is going to have to start looking into opening up those oil reserves that Biden closed and bringing jobs back to America that were exported to other nations. Self sufficiency, at least more so than current, needs to be the goal. The world, outside of the Western World, is turning its back on the U.S. and rightfully so... sooner or later so too will the Western Powers turn their backs on the U.S.
I agree though that an abrupt pullout like Biden did in Afghanistan is a stupid fkin idea and should be done gracefully.
Manufacturing jobs, and most other low wage jobs, never left the US. That is a lie fed to you by your wage slave masters. The US currently manufactures 300% more products than we did in 1972 which was the last year of the golden age of the 20th century US. The wage slave masters automated those jobs, so we do triple the production with 1/100 the workforce.
We are already self sufficient. Isolationism will not help any of your stated goals, and will cause global instability.
So I work in the IT industry... almost everything IT related, some portion of it has been exported overseas. Same goes for the customer service industry.
Sounds like you need unions. One of the many reasons I left IT was the complete lack of unions.
He still wants to send all the aid Israel will not ever want to commit genocide.
Unfortunately the U.S. belongs to Israel.
And fkin lol @ people downvoting:
No more war.
No more foreign aid.
We need to focus on Americans and America.
Holy moly, some of yall are insufferable.
we heard you the first time. get down voted twice ig
If you think US can sustain itself without foreign products, you're high on your own farts. Open a window to the basement, get some fresh air.
I never said anything about trade.. wtf lol
Holy shit, can you not think just one little step ahead?
You jumped to the conclusion that I'm asking for some kind of self imposed trade embargo. You're pretending to, "think one little step ahead"... you fkin with a game of checkers, I'm on 4D Chess. GTFO. lmao
Yeah. I can see you're not the sharpest hoe in the shed.
Playing 4D chess... As the pigeon.
Vance doesn't want that, he just wants out of this particular conflict so he can start shit somewhere else.
God forbid.
Yes, it would be bad to start another war somewhere else.
Lmao, living in a glass house during a hail.
"Let's focus on not getting hit"
It's not mutually exclusive, which of his policies are actually focusing on Americans?
Sound about right. No need to fund this slaughter.
When a war will break out on your land, don't fight back, don't ask for help. Surrender everything to anyone, because you don't want a slaughter even if it means getting everything stolen, including your freedom, your identity and your civil liberties, right?
He unironically probably will when the magats come for him and his own
Fighting back makes them a terrorist.
Unless the land is strategically advantageous to America then they are freedom fighters.
Ukraine should fight back. Americans shouldn't fund war. See how easy this is?
Why hand an easy win to putin so that he can continue rolling over democracies and vomiting more genocides in order to use their populations to further destroy democracies and commit more cultural genocides? Do you want as many authoritarian countries as possible?
You have no idea what Putin's goal is so don't pretend as if you have some deep insight. The EU can fund its own wars.
Just what Putin has allowed his state run media to say. Ukraine is not a real country and others are next. They also want Alaska back so that needs to be given up immediately to prevent bloodshed right?
Source?
I'm not going to show you how to use a search engine but here is the first of many examples after seconds of searching.
https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/877224
So should Poland, the Baltics, Germany and so on? The whole Europe should crumble to the US' enemies? How can it be in the American best interest?
The EU can fund its own wars?
So now all EU countries need to develop and store their own nuclear weapons since the nuclear umbrella provided by the U.S. is gone. This would be the largest proliferation of nukes in generations.
The US has agreements to defend their allies. Ukraine isn't an ally.
They're only in danger because we took their nukes. They literally left themselves defenseless under the agreement that we would serve as their alternative.
Do you actually believe that Americans are singlehandedly funding Ukraine's defence?
You bring up an excellent point. America doesn't have to provide further support, because they aren't single handedly funding Ukraine.
https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/
Forgot the /s?
I agree that Ukraine has lost land due to the US/NATO stopping Russia-Ukraine peace deals and talks in 2022.
I am anti-war, so peace deals should be at the forefront; war is a Last Resort[1].
Many on the 'far left' and 'far right' say:
[1] Papa Roach - Last Resort 2020 (Explicit) [03:22 | Rap, Rock, USA, In English, Rap Metal, Mental Health, Metal, Alternative Metal, Nu-Metal] https://youtu.be/D2Jl27lYExU
What peace deals were those? Must've missed them.
The peace deal where Ukraine gives up its territory.
And then Moldova, and then Lithuania, and then Northern Finland, and then I pinky promise peace.
not even peace deal, that was ceasefire. when all that was given up only then russians wanted to negotiate peace deal
The ones where Ukraine agrees to defund its military completely and stop asking for aid and Russia paints a little smiley face on their bombs in order to seem more friendly of course!
It was a peace deal where Russia would have withdrawn to Feb 23 2022 positions, hostilities would stop and Ukraine would agree not to join NATO. Boris Johnson flew in and said that NATO would give them money to keep fighting. Fast forward two years later and we have tens of thousands more dead Ukrainians and much more lost territory, and a terrible negotiating position.
Remember Chamberlain? He made his allies submit to german concessions because that would maintain peace. Fast forward five years and we had 40+ million more dead Europeans and the continent bombed to rubble.
Is every war WW2 for you guys? Do you know the non-propaganda reason this war started?
Russian expansionism.
Thats the propaganda version. Why did russia invade Georgia? (Hint: its the same reason they invaded Ukraine)
Yeah, that's what I said, russian expansionism.
Gotcha, I can explain it to you. Russia believes that NATO expansion toward them is an extential threat to their existence. NATO and the US know this, and know that NATO membership of the countries like Ukraine and Georgia is unacceptable. So when Georgia was going in the direction of NATO, then russia invaded a couple months later. So then when Ukraine was going in the direction of NATO membership, russia invaded. You can disagree with their reasons, but that is their reasons not some bullshit claim that Russia is the next 1930s germany.
These places should be part of our sphere of influence and we dont like them drifting elsewhere is exactly the reason for Hitler taking over Austria, then the Sudetenland, then Danzig. Its very comparable, down the the presense of ethnic Germans/Russians being present in the Sudetenland/Donbas and them needing to be "protected" being offered as an excuse.
One other given reason that people seem to forget is the published position by Putin that Ukraine is a fiction, that Ukranians don't exist in a culturally distinct way, and that their claimed history and distinctness should be erased and made properly Russian.
It's not just imperialism at that point, it's genocidal.
Well, Nato did expand toward them, Sweden and Finland, and what did Russia do? Did they immediately start strengthening their defences against these new Nato countries? Nope, on the contrary, the baltic bases are near empty of forces. It is concrete proof that Russia does not see Nato as a real threat, they know fully well that Nato will not be the aggressor. The whole Nato expansion excuse is the propaganda, and you are eating it.
They probably do feel threatened also by those countries, but not the same as Ukraine and Georgia. And they are doing the most they can do. Where do you think this ends? Nuclear war? Why do you suddenly care about a shitty corrupt country like Ukraine?
Hey! These countries want to be grouped together to defend against my expansionism! Better invade them to stop them from grouping together, halting my ambitions to get the band back together! Nato is a defensive agreement after all.
You can not like their beliefs, but this was was completely avoidable, and the idea that russia invaded Ukraine and Georgia due to expansionism is a lie, and the people telling you this are aware it a lie.
Yeah, if russia didn't want to expand it's territory, it would have been avoided. However that's not the case, it's not a lie. Why would countries join a defensive pact around russia if russia wasn't eyeballing their territory?
"look what you made me do"
What did the US do when the soviet union was going to put missles in Cuba?
Please cite an official Russian source putting forward that offer.
I mean it's not hard to Google "Boris Johnson Ukraine Deal":
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/22/boris-johnson-ukraine-2022-peace-talks-russia
"As Charap and Radchenko show, the reality is a bit more complicated. Johnson didn’t directly sabotage a ceasefire deal in spring 2022; indeed, there was no deal ready to be signed between Russia and Ukraine. The two sides hadn’t agreed on territorial issues, or on levels of military armaments permitted after the war. Ukraine’s position during the negotiations necessitated security guarantees that western states were hesitant to provide. And there were domestic political questions inside Ukraine related to Russian demands about “denazification” to contend with."
So, no, it's not as cut and dried as CableMonster makes it out to be. There was no fixed "deal" ready to go, at best it was a negotiation.
So no, they hadnt agreed to revert to the feb-22 borders, that was still a matter of contension, and Russia were pushing for Ukrainian disarmament post war (i.e. surrender).
My dispute wasnt that there were attempts at negotiation, obviously there were; Macron in particular made a big show of pushing for them. But the idea that Russia ever offered status-quo ante-bellum (as they suggested) is ridiculous.
Correct, but I'm also going to lean on the side of Cablemonster either mis-remembering the facts, or mis-understanding the facts, rather than mis-representing the facts.
The Guardian article I found is presented as a fact check, so the idea that Boris Johnson killed a peace deal is clearly something that's been floating around in the zeigeist.
Fair enough, personaly I find it hard to give the benefit of the doubt to people from that instance when it comes to topics like this.
Well, I have the benefit of having heard the same thing about Boris Johnson and just not bothering to run it down until now, so it doesn't surprise me that someone could hear it and uncritically parrot it. :) I mean, that happens online ALL the time!
You want me to look it up just so you can say "THATS A TERRIBLE SOURCE!!!!". I am going to pass.
So pulled out your arse then, gottcha.
If world wide news is considered my arse, then sure thing bro.
I mean, if it was world wide news surely it would be easy to get a reputable source like AP reporting that Russia officially made that offer?
Feel free to do you own research!
So again, source: Arse
This sounds like something stupid Joe Rogan would say lol
Do you watch Joe Rogan directly or do you just watch people that talk about him and tell you what to think about him?
The guy got famous making people eat blended rats. I don't need to listen to his podcast to know I don't give a shit what he has to say.
But what if I told you he sold brain supplements to make his listeners smart?
A hearty diet on bended rats made me who I am today, so I do not recommend it.
Oh yeah, the one that goes "cut my land into pieces, for oligarchs' resorts"
As a European I'm so gratefull people didn't "go for talks" on that day they stormed the beaches.. sometimes you have to actually fight for your ideals and not water them down every time they are opposed..
You do know "You agree to stop protecting yourself and I'll consider potentially maybe not bombing your orphanages and hospitals nearly as often, possibly." is not a Respectable Peace Deal
If you are anti-wat, you hoyos be against Russia starting them in the first place or at the very least support making it not worth it in the future. Forcing Ukraine to give up territory is neither of those.
Dear god you are tiresome
NATO should have been dissolved with the Warsaw Pact. Its nothing more that the European arm of US imperialism
Good thing it wasn’t as Putin has shown Russia is still a threat to innocent nations who aren’t protected by NATO membership.
NATO has already told Ukraine they will not get NATO membership because they are too corrupt. The exact same rhetoric that every nation on Earth called Ukraine prior to the Russian invasion.
Gee, I wonder if there were any major shake-ups in the Ukrainian government circa 2014 that could have explained this change in tune.
Ukraine wasn't able to join NATO because of active territorial disputes regarding Russia's 2014 illegal annexation of Crimea. The 2022 invasion and intervening Russian-backed fighting in Donestk and Luhansk were naked imperial land grabs trying to force Ukraine back into the Russian sphere of influence despite their democratic processes repeatedly trying to move towards the EU.
Or in simpler terms, imperialism is actually still bad when Russia does it and it's weird that you don't seem to understand that.
"Democracic processes," you mean seizing power through force in a coup and then banning major opposition parties.
Even Yanukovich had been trying to push for EU membership, AKA the guy who was the target of the so-called coup you're bitching about. He had to shift gears when Putin's attitude changed and he could no longer split the two, but the whole "euro" part of Euro Maidan was about the sudden shift away from the EU.
Cool. Corruption is inheritance from russia and nomenclatura.
Are we liking them facts?
The topic at hand is Ukraine
So because they are corrupt they have to surrender to Russia and the West isn’t allowed to help them defend themselves? That’s like saying that a person deserves to get shot by the police just because he has a criminal record.
Also the EU already approved Ukraine’s candidate status for accession and accession negotiations officially opened this year. So if Ukraine does things right they will be a member of the EU in ten years give or take. Guess what article 42.7 in the Treaty of Lisbon is. It’s a mutual defensive clause. So end of the day they wil be protected by the bloc whether they are a NATO member or not.
downvoting doesnt change the facts
https://www.gisreportsonline.com/r/ukraine-war-corruption-2/
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/02/biden-admin-ukraine-strategy-corruption-00119237
Go away
I'm not going anywhere. I will call out US imperialism and colonialism every chance that I get and I will stand against anybody defending that imperialism.
Russia invades its neighbour, unprovoked, explicitly to seize their agreed sovereign territory
"Why would America do this?"
Though your misinformation campaign is off to a VERY good start, I’m afraid that it bodes badly for anyone taking you seriously enough to consider anything you say as resembling a point, let alone a good one.
My favorite was when you tried to say that Pelosi and Schiff demanded that Biden step down, and when I proved you wrong with direct quotes-
You ran away.
I didnt think I ever said anything about Schiff or Pelosi, and after going over my history I was right. If you have not caught on I could not care less what someone else thinks of me.
Ahhhh… right. That wasn’t you. I get you all confused. Same message, same….
Anyway-
It was you though, that admitted you were here to disrupt an election. Haven’t forgotten that part.
And it’s just as stupid.
The disrupting election bullshit is your terminology. I'm simply telling people they don't have to vote for a fascist. They should feel entitled to vote who they want to see in government. They should not feel trapped into a duopoly that does not represent their interests
Oh come on now… don’t try and paint over it. What you said was:
Actively- Encourage.
You are urging people to NOT to vote.
THAT IS DISRUPTING AN ELECTION.
No one should vote for biden. If Biden had repeated everything he's already done throughout his career, but as a Republican, liberals would hate everything he's done. And rightfully so. But he's given a pass because of that D.
That’s blatantly untrue.
Without NATO we'd have said bye bye to Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia and maybe Poland
Remember, if russia does it, it is NOT:
The irony of someone with the handle anticolonialist spouting talking points in favour of an imperialist land grab where they are literally creating colonies of Russians along the corridor of Ukrainian land between Russia and Crimea is just beautiful.
No one is supporting anything like that. If the US would stay out of everyone else's business the world would be a much better place