Apple being Apple again. Just why does anyone actually like that company?
Man, they're seething against the EU, totally pissed that the legislators worked against their abuse over developers and rubbed against their cash cow.
Apple is all about money and fucking the user, being no different from Meta or Google. All they have is shinier hardware.
Much worse than Google IMO, at least when it comes to fucking with rules made by EU. Google usually tries to appeal legally and if it doesn't work out, they do what they must. This Apple bulshittery with 3rd party app stores is a new one. Someone here in this thread said that the worst EU can do to companies breaking DMA is forcing them to sell the division. I would love for Apple to push EU that far.
Companies working against technical standards are basically working against society.
And no one fights standards quite like Apple.
But but but muh innovation! Standards ruin that! /s
I'd argue they have better hardware. I'd love to have an iPhone running stock Android.
I mean the og comment literally said "all they have is shinier hardware"
Just read it wrong since Google was mentioned right before the start of the final sentence
Costs a fortune, hard to repair, no SD slot, no headphone jack, until recently could not be used with the chargers you have for everything else... At least for me it is a "no".
That would be the dream :)
Apple is scary because they succeeded at creating a sect by frontal assault, so to say.
Google did that very subtly and precisely in the 00s, and like a decade ago firmly diverted to the MS way.
MS didn't go in the cult direction, they slowly and steadily capitalized on their monopolistic power with moderation and modesty.
While Apple almost from the beginning just shat on everybody and everybody asked for more. They even took the counterculture niche partially in the 90s and 00s. And for clueless people it's still them.
What about privacy though? Google runs an ad network, so clearly they have financial incentive to spy hard.
So does Apple, the difference being they grabbed it all to themselves. This is why they have "no tracking" options, to seal competition off while selling themselves as the privacy champions and also selling their in house ad solution. That and the fact that they worked with the government behind users back, and having a shoddy work to secure their OS.
Apple is not any better than Meta, they just lie better.
Fuck apple with a cactus.
Sideways.
Lol, what phone are you using?
Edit: Why am I being downvoted? The dude said to fuck someone with a cactus. That's hilarious - no one else thinks that's funny? I'm still laughing lol
OnePlus 10 pro.
Would never sacrifice the flexibility and customizability of an Android device for the clunky and unintuitive UI of an iPhone.
So why fuck Apple? You're using an Android device, Apple has updated their software in a way that doesn't compel you to want to try an Apple device, end of story why all the vitriol?
I could see, maybe, if you were already an Apple user and wanted them to make a change that you want on your device. But having so much hate for a device you have no intention of using anyway?
This change impacts every mobile user, not just iPhone users. iPhones are a good portion of the userbase of most apps/websites. For PWAs to gain mass adoption, it needs to be available for the majority of users. This change means that will not be the case in the EU.
PWAs have just been doomed by Apple, and unless Apple reverts this change, they will now never be successful in the EU. And probably not even outside of the EU since non-european products still have european users.
I don't think that's why this guy is mad
You can say many things about apple but clunky and unintuitive would not be it.
You only find Apple's UI intuitive because you're used to it.
I don't find it intuitive at all. Whenever I've used an iPhone, I've had to ask for help.
And I'm a full stack web developer, who contributes to some other software projects in my spare time. I've been around computers a fair bit.
Operating systems these days are complicated. It's difficult to make them immediately intuitive to a new user. This isn't a dig at Apple. Any modern, highly featured OS is like this.
Same. I have no idea how to use an iphone. Even basic things are frustrating.
Just wanted to chime in that I'm not an apple user, I primarily use android and windows. iPad is the only iOS device I use. I flat out disagree with clunky, Apple's UI design (on iOS at least) is beautiful. UX wise, I can't comment on functional differences between Android and iOS, at this stage in time, both are comparably usable for most people.
Some apple user experience choices definitely feel clunky.
Plugging an iPhone into a computer to move files around is a nightmare. The way notifications work on iOS is extremely clunky. Pairing non-apple devices to your apple device is purposely made clunky. Bastardising PWAs has led to them being clunky af.
Using MacOS and having to memorise some wild keyboard shortcuts is clunky. Not being able to minimise a program by clicking the icon in the dock feels clunky. MacOS flipping out when you want to tile one window but not another feels clunky. Apple's workspace view and app menu view not being integrated together (a la Gnome Activities view) feels clunky. The whole app installation process (outside of the Mac store) is super clunky.
Apple is extremely visually consistent. But they absolutely have UX clunkiness, just as the others do. It's fine though, most people don't care. I'm pretty anal about these things.
I mean this is all subjective of course, but something like installing apps on macOS is extremely easy. Like Windows, apps can install themselves in about three or so different ways (not including managed devices), but most macOS apps you download are simply dragged into the applications folder - that's it. To uninstall, you drag the app to the trash bin and empty the trash.
To me that sounds clunky as fuck.
I've tried an Iphone XR for 1 month. It's intuitive, but Android is too.
I compel you to try to snap to tile a single windows to a side of the desktop in a macOS fresh install.
::: spoiler spoiler
You can't because, to do that thing that every single desktop environment can do out of the box, you need to install a third party app on macOS. This and many other QoL features that are bog standard on Windows and Linux today are not present on macOS.
:::
Now, I want you to tell me out of the top of your head, what does pressing the green button achieves on the window for Safari? Do you think it will do the same on the settings window? What will it do for the App Store? Do you think it will do the same thing on all three or three different things? Which one do you expect?
Final challenge, make the window for the calculator stay on top of all other windows.
Motorola
My man!
I got it and it made me laugh
Third party browser & JavaScript engine + ability to install web apps on the Home screen = third party app store that doesn’t have to pay Apple’s fees.
When Apple could force everyone to use Apple’s WebKit, web apps didn’t matter as much as Apple could limit WebKit features to push people to the App Store. E.g. it took ages to get push notifications on WebKit. If Google and Mozilla are free to make whatever improvements to their browser engines, the need to have native apps on the phone decreases considerably.
That's what I really want personally, the mobile web Steve Jobs envisioned. Glorious web apps without flash.
He pushed everything into apps though. Getting rid of flash was a big part of that because JavaScript wasn't capable of all of the same things at that time. The canvas wasn't fully supported yet. That meant games and anything with crazy animations needed to be an app.
Killing flash was one of the first steps to where we are now. It may not have been perfect but it did a lot for its time.
Just why does anyone actually like that company?
I mean, if Google weren't shit, I'm sure Android would be more viable. They've can't even keep a consistent brand! They've gone from Google Play this and that, to migrating everything - including podcasts - to YouTube.
migrating everything - including podcasts - to YouTube
If only there were other apps for podcasts on Android, it would be a viable operating system.
Google is kind of crap, but Android has a lot more built-in escape hatches than iOS does. People don't seem to use them as much as I'd hoped, but they're available.
I've been using Podcast Addict for years now. Dunno why people think they are bound to one thing when Android offers so many choices.
I think they're just have choice paralysis. There's too much stuff on Android, and picking something is really rather anoying.
Something like a Gallery. There's probably a 1000 galleries on Play Store, 50% of them are "my first app", that display a fullscreen ad every other photo.
You have to know what you want, research it, then get it. Non-nerds don't really care about that.
My guess. I'm a nerd who does care about all that.
You do have a point, but each App's play store page itself shows whether it has ads or in-app purchases. One can use that as an indicator for selecting an app. So people just need to pay attention to the small text right below the App's title
Then there is always f-droid . You can find really good quality software without ads in fdroid. I rarely use the play store these days (except when I have to update whatsapp and banking apps)
Again, you're telling this to an android nerd. I'm aware.
I'm speaking from a perspective of an average joe, who is 100% not aware of the existance of F-droid or is convinced that it's malware.
I'm also don't expect people sift through hundreds of apps, opening each page and checking permissions/ads/reviews.
People install apps either because they've heard about it on TV/whatever, or a friend told them to install this specific app.
This is why people rely on default apps, and compare "phones" based on that.
I will confess I used Google podcasts for years not realizing that the FOSS alternatives were MASSIVE improvements.
Is there a podcast app that automatically plays the next episode of podcasts in the correct order (oldest to newest)?
I've tried a bunch of podcast apps and none of them seem to do that like Google podcasts did, unless I'm using them wrong.
Antennapod can do that. You can define the sort order per show.
Pocketcasts fixed that a while ago. You can set the sorting of episodes for each podcast and then it plays in that order.
That’s google’s strategy though.
Although they let you have full control and don’t force you to use their apps, it’s setup so the majority just use the defaults and are discouraged to sway away from google’s ways.
Its fully intentional.
While I totally agree, the average Joe is just going to gravitate to whomever controls the ecosystem. Kinda hard to trust a higher authority when they can't even get their in-house shit together.
Are you implying that the average user doesn't know how to install an app? My 80 yo parents do that on their samsung tablet.
No need to trust any higher authorities, whatever that means
I think they mean the average person isn’t going to take the time to check 20 different contacts apps in the store to find the perfect one, then do it again with every other basic app on their phone.
They’re just gonna use the default app 99%
I'm implying that people choose the path of least resistance.
Gotcha, sorry misunderstood
Android is more popular globally, the only place where it isn't true (AFAIK) is USA where the colour of the text bubble is important for reasons that defy logic.
where the colour of the text bubble is important for reasons that defy logic.
That's just a thing tweens and teens do, it's just like when kids were obsessed with expensive shoes when I was a kid and would ostracize the kids who couldn't afford them. No sane adult I have ever met gave a shit about my text bubbles.
That's half-true. No adults I voluntarily associate with care what brand of phone anybody else has in theory, but a lot of the iPhone owners are vehemently unwilling to install any third-party messaging apps. That means:
Messaging about anything where security is important is a problem. Most people don't have big secrets, but sending things that could be used for identity theft isn't terribly rare.
Exchanging high-quality media is impossible.
People will exclude non-iPhone users from group chats because falling back to MMS is a bad experience for everyone.
Yeah. We usually mock apple users in my country xd they go in high debt to get one of those candy bricks and can't even afford a cellular plan afterwards. Lmao
Google's marketing department defies logic every day.
Is that your biggest concern about a tech company? Id be happy for marketing departments to he shut down and the money redirected to make better/cheaper products.
While Google sucks now and has for a while, in their early days they have demonstrated that marketing is not all it takes to make innovative, successful products.
On the opposite end of the spectrum, Apple obsession with marketing has created fanboys that spend the night queuing up to be the first to get the latest iPhone, and that don't question the technology or ethics (or anything) behind the flashing toy that they crave. Good for the executives and the shareholder but as a customer?
Fuck google buy a google pixel then put grapheneos on it
Fuck Google
Give them money
Is there another option?
Other options are Fairphone, Volla, Murena - or flashing "vanilla" custom ROM's on phones other than Pixels - or using Ubuntu Touch, Plasma Mobile, Mobian, Droidian or Sailfish OS.
Its kinda ironic that google pixel is the only phone with decent secirity hardware and an unlockablw bootloader.
Buy a second-hand Google Pixel.
They would make a lot more money on that purchase if it’s vanilla android though. Yes, you’re spending money on the hardware, but is Google really known for making bank on just hardware sales?
I moved from android to iphone 2 years ago. As soon as this piece of crap dies, I'm moving back to android.
Heh, welcome back soon!
looking forward to being able to have separate volumes for notifications and ringer again... "#/(%)&#)$%&
For me the notifications were the biggest gripe.
Unfortunately that's not a stock Android thing, so weird
Really? Pixels have had that function for a while now. I always assumed it was stock.
I have a Pixel, notification and ringer are combined
I am not a huge fan of Apple but they will probably be stuck on iOS for a while. Their phones last quite a long time and get updates for very long.
honestly, the shitty user experience might make me chuck it into the trash before it actually dies.
Haha, that's fair enough.
i find it absolutely hilarious when iphone fans talk about a polished user experience, it's a joke.
no one complains about their phones more than iphone users
As does every good phone in that price range.
Updates though?
This year's top Samsung has 7 years of updates guaranteed.
How was it earlier?
5 years, before that 3 years, before that worse and not even standardized.
welcome back, let's hope Play Integrity has an exploit found in case you bought a Xiaomi or Alcatel or whatever.
Welp, this might be kbin for me. It’s the only circumstance I’ve really found a PWA necessary, although I’ve considered making PWAs of some online shops I frequent.
I suspect Apple is eliminating PWAs from safari in the EU just because they don’t want to be forced to allow 3rd party browsers to do the same. Let’s go ahead and throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I’ve actually got a U.S. apple account on an iPhone bought in Japan, and living in the EU temporarily. It’ll be interesting to see how this is going to play out for me.
Aah, the security again...
Fuck this company
Apple really sucks hard! What a terrible company! 🤮🤮
Tell me a corporation that doesn't suck.
When you realize corporations exist for the benefit of shareholders and not the customers it serves, it makes a lot more sense why they act the way they do.
That's why things like credit unions usually don't suck as hard.
My only example ever is pretty much Costco. But I can't think of a single tech company that isn't a massive asshole. There must be some tho, right?
Valve? I think they are pretty good and pro consumer.
You didn’t used to be able to refund your stream purchases if you downloaded or installed them at all. The fact that they forced intrusive DRM with a single player game in HL2.
Valve was seen as a very unfriendly company until about 2010
how quickly people forget valves pro-consumer shit was forced by regulations and countries suing them into compliance.
Losing that fight is the big reason why valve made all the changes its did to be better for consumers.. and I wager they did it cause they saw where the dominos would fall if more countries went after them, So they did it themselves to paint it like a big pro-consumer thing instead of a preventing-further-legal-costs thing.
Personally, I am okay with Valve not always being the company they are now. A government did its job and the company it affected became consumer friendly [and still dominated the market by believing in a market no other major publisher wanted to touch at the time]. This is what governments are created for: helping the citizens while letting these companies innovate.
Valve basically killed the second hand market of PC Games with their Steam keys tied forever to one account. CD Keys was a thing before Steam but only for online games and if you sold the game or lended it out to a buddy the next person could play with same key. Nope too pro consumer thought Valve, made it mandatory for singleplayer games like Half-Life 2. They forced people buying Half-Life 2 to install Steam & create Steam account which at the time was not ready and basically just an early DRM to tie license forever to one account.
Many people could not even play at release, they could not prove they owned what they had bought, cause servers were overloaded so they were locked out of playing an offline singleplayer game on their own computer. Unfortunately that is custom nowadays when big games launch with contrived shitty online service crap forced down gamers throats. Valve basically pioneered that shit among many other douchey moves. They are better than scum like EA & Ubisoft especially these days but far from perfect. So no they all suck to some degree.
For now.. Things can always change and it's usually for the worst.
I personally believe Costco does suck but somehow a large number of people are blind to it.
Canonical 🏴
No, they suck too.
Doing a very similar tactic to Apple with their snaps.
Whoever buys apple shit will learn eventually. Or just go extinct.
Some services, like Facebook Gaming, use web apps as a way to get around the Apple App Store and its fees.
Smell coming out from this little hole here :)
Well, now they can use their own Facebook App Store on iPhones in EU, so not sure it really changes anything for them.
Their own Facebook App Store would have to pay the same fees to Apple as the Apple App Store under Apple's generous terms. Losing the web app escape hatch is a 30% revenue loss
Yeah, I'll wait until EU has their say, because the shit Apple came up with goes against what EU is trying to achieve.
As a sysadmin and self-hoster this decision will absolutely make me drop Apple 150%. A clean and well implemented pwa was a big reason I have stuck with my iPhone 12 despite buying a pixel 7. I know there are options on Android but they all have issues either in ux or in ui that makes it very obvious I’m using a pwa.
Another reason to keep hating apple. Fascists corporate america
Holy shit if this is true it will be a game changer for me . Will be start looking android devices. Such a retrograde movement!
It is true
Well, definitely sounds like something they'd do. EU might force them not to, though. Only time will tell how it turns out. But definitely recommend the move to Android!
Queue the Apple dick riders defending their precious megacorp from being a POS company
*Cue
Nah, they are lining up to defend their favorite company.
Que?
Queue?
Qwayway?
The probably couldn't afford the development /s
But on the positive side, Apple is now forced to allow other app stores on all phones in the EU.
So that's probably a bigger win than this is a loss.
Depends on whether your app is distributed as a PWA or not. Mine is, so it kinda touches me personally.
Why don’t users in the EU have access to Home Screen web apps?
UPDATE: Previously, Apple announced plans to remove the Home Screen web apps capability in the EU as part of our efforts to comply with the DMA. The need to remove the capability was informed by the complex security and privacy concerns associated with web apps to support alternative browser engines that would require building a new integration architecture that does not currently exist in iOS.
We have received requests to continue to offer support for Home Screen web apps in iOS, therefore we will continue to offer the existing Home Screen web apps capability in the EU. This support means Home Screen web apps continue to be built directly on WebKit and its security architecture, and align with the security and privacy model for native apps on iOS.
Developers and users who may have been impacted by the removal of Home Screen web apps in the beta release of iOS in the EU can expect the return of the existing functionality for Home Screen web apps with the availability of iOS 17.4 in early March.
Apple being Apple again. Just why does anyone actually like that company?
Marketing and build quality goes a long way to making people feel like a company is good.
What's this fabled build quality that other phones in the same price range don't have?
Sure others have the same build quality, but not the decades of marketing that Apple has. You gotta have both to get people to be irrationally loyal to a company.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Apple is officially axing support for progressive web apps for iPhone users located in the European Union.
While web apps have been broken for EU users in every iOS 17.4 beta so far, Apple has now confirmed that this is a feature, not a bug.
In an update to its developer website spotted by 9to5Mac, Apple says it’s removing homescreen apps for users in the EU because bringing them into compliance with the Digital Markets Act (DMA) would involve “an entirely new integration architecture” that’s “not practical” to build on top of the other changes it’s been forced to make.
In its post, Apple argues that web apps are built “directly on WebKit” — the engine used by Safari — allowing web apps to “align with the security and privacy model for native apps on iOS.” With the change to iOS 17.4, websites added to the homescreen now act only as bookmarks that open a new tab in your browser, rather than (potentially) standalone services capable of doing things like sending notifications and showing badges, a feature Apple just added to web apps last year.
Progressive web apps on iOS are also capable of storing data separately from your browser instance, which comes in handy if there’s a site you want quick access to and don’t want to keep signing in.
“Still, we regret any impact this change — that was made as part of the work to comply with the DMA — may have on developers of Home Screen web apps and our users.” Apple cites “very low user adoption” of homescreen apps as another reason for the lack of support.
The original article contains 399 words, the summary contains 272 words. Saved 32%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
TL;DR: Fuck Apple.
I was starting to love pwa... But this is going to kill the momentum it was starting to have 😢
Well, let's hope EU fines them all the way to bankruptcy (I know that's not gonna happen, but one can dream).
The EU could force Apple to sell their iPhone business. That's listed as the maximum penalty for a DMA violation for companies that "systematically" fail to open up their platform.
apple wouldn't do that, they'd withdraw from the EU first
I wish this. Like Microsoft and google constantly making dependent users mad shitting on them
This is probably motivated by the EU decision that since no uses iMessage in the EU, Apple is not legally a "gatekeeper". Perhaps no one (i.e. fewer than 40 million people) uses web apps in the EU, therefore they are gambling that they are allowed to legally gatekeep in that market
I don't think so, they're just trying to make the experience worse and then say "it's the EU that made us do it".
That shit brand created a cult for dimwits thinking they are better and smarter than everybody else by becoming platform slaves, and thus be exploited, as their only benefit of their deficiencies and dependency is consumism.
In real life ive never met anyone who thinks owning one brand of things makes you better than anyone else. If you have friends that think that way, maybe dont be friends with them, thats toxic. If it realy annoys you, block them so you dont see them online, lower the negativity impact on your mind. If you dont want to support a brand that has a product you want, buy it used so they dont get any money.
I guess you haven't met the San Francisco twats that were driving around in Teslas while wearing Vision Pros. Just because you haven't met one doesn't mean they don't exist.
I like there hardware but I don't like what they do with it and what they do with the software
They do have good software in some things but their limitations make it not worth it
How will this affect the Lemmy client Voyager? Is it considered a web app? My understanding was that it was.
Ah didn't know it was in the App Store now. Good. Thanks.
been there since the Reddit Exodus or shortly after
Edit: ok I looked into my app history, installed Mlem on 22.07.23 and Voyager on 17.09.23, felt like a week in my memory.. But Voyager is not new in the iOS Appstore and IMHO was one of the best Lemmy Apps for iOS since launch.
It definitely wasn’t there during the exodus. IIRC, there were also some features missing from it when it hit the App Store too, so the web app was still the better choice.
It is, they have an official app store app as well though. However I find mlem to be a smoother experience, particularly scrolling, and it tends to keep its position when being backgrounded better than memmy and voyager.
A lot of kerfuffle over not much. If you’re going to release a web app instead of a proper app, then I’m quite happy to have a bookmark to the web page instead of a bullshit fake app wrapping the same bookmark. Don’t clutter my phone with that garbage.
And you're right for feeling that way, but having more choices is always better, not less. Apple doesn't care for how you use their software if it isn't the way they want it.
Progressive web apps do much more than just wrap a bookmark....
Most PWAs are trash, but there are some nice ones out there that feel a lot better when you ditch the browser chrome. Voyager for Lemmy is a good one. It feels native.
Most native apps are trash too.
Well, I'm definitely not paying Apple $99 a year to be on their shit store, so I've opted for PWA. It's made as an app from the scratch, not really much different from a native app.
It's more than that - for example in Safari after seven days with a bookmark, all data the website stores on device is deleted.
With a PWA saved to your home screen, your data is kept until you delete the icon from your home screen.
Also, PWAs don't have a browser toolbar.
Does this affect the UK as well as they aren’t in the European Union anymore?
Most likely not, UK does not use EU laws anymore.
What are some popular examples that would be affected by this?
If I'm understanding right, I believe Xbox Cloud Gaming and Geforce Now have used this. They get access to better video APIs by running as a home screen webapp, and aren't at risk of popping the address bar from touch confusion.
Voyager, a client for Lemmy, also installs as a webapp. Similarly, it doesn't show the address bar when you scroll up and down.
Mind you Voyager has a wrapped iOS app already. Posting from it right now.
Popular? None.
But we don't only have to build an environment that allows the doing of popular things. We also need to maintain a society in which unpopular or unusual things can be done. The doing of unpopular or unusual things is itself popular.
The barrier of entry for these apps are just so low. You don't have to download anything for them to work and (for now) they're crossplatform.
If you haven't yet, you might want to try voyager on your lemmy instance: https://vger.app/
Cryptee is one that comes to mind.
This f*cking sucks. I hope they don't bring this to Australia, I want to make my native app a web app to save money so I don't have to pay their bullshit fees and own their shit computers
Unless you force them to open up their system for 3rd party stores and browsers like EU did, I think you're fine.
I wish we were doing that here too. Hopefully when we do we'll take some learnings based on Europe's experience.
ps: Thanks for the Auto TL;DR bot, has saved me a lot of time assessing articles
Why don’t users in the EU have access to Home Screen web apps?
UPDATE: Previously, Apple announced plans to remove the Home Screen web apps capability in the EU as part of our efforts to comply with the DMA. The need to remove the capability was informed by the complex security and privacy concerns associated with web apps to support alternative browser engines that would require building a new integration architecture that does not currently exist in iOS.
We have received requests to continue to offer support for Home Screen web apps in iOS, therefore we will continue to offer the existing Home Screen web apps capability in the EU. This support means Home Screen web apps continue to be built directly on WebKit and its security architecture, and align with the security and privacy model for native apps on iOS.
Developers and users who may have been impacted by the removal of Home Screen web apps in the beta release of iOS in the EU can expect the return of the existing functionality for Home Screen web apps with the availability of iOS 17.4 in early March.
Finally, some good news.
My guess is that the majority doesn't know what web apps are. Most people I know either have an app for that or consider a function not worthwhile or necessary.
Nah. They are just locking down a pathway for using whatever you want on a device you purchased.
It's all about brand and glam. Majority of people that need validation from others "need" to have an iPhone.
Don't forget the walled garden. Apple does have a reputation they worked hard to achieve, and people who don't know better feel compelled to try, but than, switching to Android becomes a very difficult task
Man, they're seething against the EU, totally pissed that the legislators worked against their abuse over developers and rubbed against their cash cow.
Apple is all about money and fucking the user, being no different from Meta or Google. All they have is shinier hardware.
Much worse than Google IMO, at least when it comes to fucking with rules made by EU. Google usually tries to appeal legally and if it doesn't work out, they do what they must. This Apple bulshittery with 3rd party app stores is a new one. Someone here in this thread said that the worst EU can do to companies breaking DMA is forcing them to sell the division. I would love for Apple to push EU that far.
Companies working against technical standards are basically working against society. And no one fights standards quite like Apple.
But but but muh innovation! Standards ruin that! /s
I'd argue they have better hardware. I'd love to have an iPhone running stock Android.
I mean the og comment literally said "all they have is shinier hardware"
Just read it wrong since Google was mentioned right before the start of the final sentence
Costs a fortune, hard to repair, no SD slot, no headphone jack, until recently could not be used with the chargers you have for everything else... At least for me it is a "no".
That would be the dream :)
Apple is scary because they succeeded at creating a sect by frontal assault, so to say.
Google did that very subtly and precisely in the 00s, and like a decade ago firmly diverted to the MS way.
MS didn't go in the cult direction, they slowly and steadily capitalized on their monopolistic power with moderation and modesty.
While Apple almost from the beginning just shat on everybody and everybody asked for more. They even took the counterculture niche partially in the 90s and 00s. And for clueless people it's still them.
What about privacy though? Google runs an ad network, so clearly they have financial incentive to spy hard.
So does Apple, the difference being they grabbed it all to themselves. This is why they have "no tracking" options, to seal competition off while selling themselves as the privacy champions and also selling their in house ad solution. That and the fact that they worked with the government behind users back, and having a shoddy work to secure their OS.
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56995192
https://www.vox.com/recode/23045136/apple-app-tracking-transparency-privacy-ads
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/12/apple-admits-to-secretly-giving-governments-push-notification-data/
https://arstechnica.com/security/2023/10/iphone-privacy-feature-hiding-wi-fi-macs-has-failed-to-work-for-3-years/
https://arstechnica.com/security/2024/01/hackers-can-id-unique-apple-airdrop-users-chinese-authorities-claim-to-do-just-that/
Apple is not any better than Meta, they just lie better.
Fuck apple with a cactus.
Sideways.
Lol, what phone are you using?
Edit: Why am I being downvoted? The dude said to fuck someone with a cactus. That's hilarious - no one else thinks that's funny? I'm still laughing lol
OnePlus 10 pro.
Would never sacrifice the flexibility and customizability of an Android device for the clunky and unintuitive UI of an iPhone.
So why fuck Apple? You're using an Android device, Apple has updated their software in a way that doesn't compel you to want to try an Apple device, end of story why all the vitriol?
I could see, maybe, if you were already an Apple user and wanted them to make a change that you want on your device. But having so much hate for a device you have no intention of using anyway?
This change impacts every mobile user, not just iPhone users. iPhones are a good portion of the userbase of most apps/websites. For PWAs to gain mass adoption, it needs to be available for the majority of users. This change means that will not be the case in the EU.
PWAs have just been doomed by Apple, and unless Apple reverts this change, they will now never be successful in the EU. And probably not even outside of the EU since non-european products still have european users.
I don't think that's why this guy is mad
You can say many things about apple but clunky and unintuitive would not be it.
You only find Apple's UI intuitive because you're used to it.
I don't find it intuitive at all. Whenever I've used an iPhone, I've had to ask for help.
And I'm a full stack web developer, who contributes to some other software projects in my spare time. I've been around computers a fair bit.
Operating systems these days are complicated. It's difficult to make them immediately intuitive to a new user. This isn't a dig at Apple. Any modern, highly featured OS is like this.
Same. I have no idea how to use an iphone. Even basic things are frustrating.
Just wanted to chime in that I'm not an apple user, I primarily use android and windows. iPad is the only iOS device I use. I flat out disagree with clunky, Apple's UI design (on iOS at least) is beautiful. UX wise, I can't comment on functional differences between Android and iOS, at this stage in time, both are comparably usable for most people.
Some apple user experience choices definitely feel clunky.
Plugging an iPhone into a computer to move files around is a nightmare. The way notifications work on iOS is extremely clunky. Pairing non-apple devices to your apple device is purposely made clunky. Bastardising PWAs has led to them being clunky af.
Using MacOS and having to memorise some wild keyboard shortcuts is clunky. Not being able to minimise a program by clicking the icon in the dock feels clunky. MacOS flipping out when you want to tile one window but not another feels clunky. Apple's workspace view and app menu view not being integrated together (a la Gnome Activities view) feels clunky. The whole app installation process (outside of the Mac store) is super clunky.
Apple is extremely visually consistent. But they absolutely have UX clunkiness, just as the others do. It's fine though, most people don't care. I'm pretty anal about these things.
I mean this is all subjective of course, but something like installing apps on macOS is extremely easy. Like Windows, apps can install themselves in about three or so different ways (not including managed devices), but most macOS apps you download are simply dragged into the applications folder - that's it. To uninstall, you drag the app to the trash bin and empty the trash.
To me that sounds clunky as fuck.
I've tried an Iphone XR for 1 month. It's intuitive, but Android is too.
I compel you to try to snap to tile a single windows to a side of the desktop in a macOS fresh install.
::: spoiler spoiler You can't because, to do that thing that every single desktop environment can do out of the box, you need to install a third party app on macOS. This and many other QoL features that are bog standard on Windows and Linux today are not present on macOS. :::
Now, I want you to tell me out of the top of your head, what does pressing the green button achieves on the window for Safari? Do you think it will do the same on the settings window? What will it do for the App Store? Do you think it will do the same thing on all three or three different things? Which one do you expect?
Final challenge, make the window for the calculator stay on top of all other windows.
Motorola
My man!
I got it and it made me laugh
Third party browser & JavaScript engine + ability to install web apps on the Home screen = third party app store that doesn’t have to pay Apple’s fees.
When Apple could force everyone to use Apple’s WebKit, web apps didn’t matter as much as Apple could limit WebKit features to push people to the App Store. E.g. it took ages to get push notifications on WebKit. If Google and Mozilla are free to make whatever improvements to their browser engines, the need to have native apps on the phone decreases considerably.
That's what I really want personally, the mobile web Steve Jobs envisioned. Glorious web apps without flash.
He pushed everything into apps though. Getting rid of flash was a big part of that because JavaScript wasn't capable of all of the same things at that time. The canvas wasn't fully supported yet. That meant games and anything with crazy animations needed to be an app.
Killing flash was one of the first steps to where we are now. It may not have been perfect but it did a lot for its time.
I mean, if Google weren't shit, I'm sure Android would be more viable. They've can't even keep a consistent brand! They've gone from Google Play this and that, to migrating everything - including podcasts - to YouTube.
If only there were other apps for podcasts on Android, it would be a viable operating system.
Google is kind of crap, but Android has a lot more built-in escape hatches than iOS does. People don't seem to use them as much as I'd hoped, but they're available.
I've been using Podcast Addict for years now. Dunno why people think they are bound to one thing when Android offers so many choices.
I think they're just have choice paralysis. There's too much stuff on Android, and picking something is really rather anoying.
Something like a Gallery. There's probably a 1000 galleries on Play Store, 50% of them are "my first app", that display a fullscreen ad every other photo.
You have to know what you want, research it, then get it. Non-nerds don't really care about that.
My guess. I'm a nerd who does care about all that.
You do have a point, but each App's play store page itself shows whether it has ads or in-app purchases. One can use that as an indicator for selecting an app. So people just need to pay attention to the small text right below the App's title
Then there is always f-droid . You can find really good quality software without ads in fdroid. I rarely use the play store these days (except when I have to update whatsapp and banking apps)
Again, you're telling this to an android nerd. I'm aware.
I'm speaking from a perspective of an average joe, who is 100% not aware of the existance of F-droid or is convinced that it's malware.
I'm also don't expect people sift through hundreds of apps, opening each page and checking permissions/ads/reviews.
People install apps either because they've heard about it on TV/whatever, or a friend told them to install this specific app.
This is why people rely on default apps, and compare "phones" based on that.
I will confess I used Google podcasts for years not realizing that the FOSS alternatives were MASSIVE improvements.
Is there a podcast app that automatically plays the next episode of podcasts in the correct order (oldest to newest)?
I've tried a bunch of podcast apps and none of them seem to do that like Google podcasts did, unless I'm using them wrong.
Antennapod can do that. You can define the sort order per show.
Pocketcasts fixed that a while ago. You can set the sorting of episodes for each podcast and then it plays in that order.
That’s google’s strategy though.
Although they let you have full control and don’t force you to use their apps, it’s setup so the majority just use the defaults and are discouraged to sway away from google’s ways.
Its fully intentional.
While I totally agree, the average Joe is just going to gravitate to whomever controls the ecosystem. Kinda hard to trust a higher authority when they can't even get their in-house shit together.
Are you implying that the average user doesn't know how to install an app? My 80 yo parents do that on their samsung tablet.
No need to trust any higher authorities, whatever that means
I think they mean the average person isn’t going to take the time to check 20 different contacts apps in the store to find the perfect one, then do it again with every other basic app on their phone.
They’re just gonna use the default app 99%
I'm implying that people choose the path of least resistance.
Gotcha, sorry misunderstood
Android is more popular globally, the only place where it isn't true (AFAIK) is USA where the colour of the text bubble is important for reasons that defy logic.
That's just a thing tweens and teens do, it's just like when kids were obsessed with expensive shoes when I was a kid and would ostracize the kids who couldn't afford them. No sane adult I have ever met gave a shit about my text bubbles.
That's half-true. No adults I voluntarily associate with care what brand of phone anybody else has in theory, but a lot of the iPhone owners are vehemently unwilling to install any third-party messaging apps. That means:
Yeah. We usually mock apple users in my country xd they go in high debt to get one of those candy bricks and can't even afford a cellular plan afterwards. Lmao
Google's marketing department defies logic every day.
Is that your biggest concern about a tech company? Id be happy for marketing departments to he shut down and the money redirected to make better/cheaper products.
While Google sucks now and has for a while, in their early days they have demonstrated that marketing is not all it takes to make innovative, successful products.
On the opposite end of the spectrum, Apple obsession with marketing has created fanboys that spend the night queuing up to be the first to get the latest iPhone, and that don't question the technology or ethics (or anything) behind the flashing toy that they crave. Good for the executives and the shareholder but as a customer?
Fuck google buy a google pixel then put grapheneos on it
Is there another option?
Other options are Fairphone, Volla, Murena - or flashing "vanilla" custom ROM's on phones other than Pixels - or using Ubuntu Touch, Plasma Mobile, Mobian, Droidian or Sailfish OS.
Its kinda ironic that google pixel is the only phone with decent secirity hardware and an unlockablw bootloader.
Buy a second-hand Google Pixel.
They would make a lot more money on that purchase if it’s vanilla android though. Yes, you’re spending money on the hardware, but is Google really known for making bank on just hardware sales?
buy a used phone
I moved from android to iphone 2 years ago. As soon as this piece of crap dies, I'm moving back to android.
Heh, welcome back soon!
looking forward to being able to have separate volumes for notifications and ringer again... "#/(%)&#)$%&
For me the notifications were the biggest gripe.
Unfortunately that's not a stock Android thing, so weird
Really? Pixels have had that function for a while now. I always assumed it was stock.
I have a Pixel, notification and ringer are combined
I am not a huge fan of Apple but they will probably be stuck on iOS for a while. Their phones last quite a long time and get updates for very long.
honestly, the shitty user experience might make me chuck it into the trash before it actually dies.
Haha, that's fair enough.
i find it absolutely hilarious when iphone fans talk about a polished user experience, it's a joke.
no one complains about their phones more than iphone users
As does every good phone in that price range.
Updates though?
This year's top Samsung has 7 years of updates guaranteed.
How was it earlier?
5 years, before that 3 years, before that worse and not even standardized.
welcome back, let's hope Play Integrity has an exploit found in case you bought a Xiaomi or Alcatel or whatever.
Welp, this might be kbin for me. It’s the only circumstance I’ve really found a PWA necessary, although I’ve considered making PWAs of some online shops I frequent.
I suspect Apple is eliminating PWAs from safari in the EU just because they don’t want to be forced to allow 3rd party browsers to do the same. Let’s go ahead and throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I’ve actually got a U.S. apple account on an iPhone bought in Japan, and living in the EU temporarily. It’ll be interesting to see how this is going to play out for me.
Aah, the security again...
Fuck this company
Apple really sucks hard! What a terrible company! 🤮🤮
Tell me a corporation that doesn't suck.
When you realize corporations exist for the benefit of shareholders and not the customers it serves, it makes a lot more sense why they act the way they do.
That's why things like credit unions usually don't suck as hard.
My only example ever is pretty much Costco. But I can't think of a single tech company that isn't a massive asshole. There must be some tho, right?
Valve? I think they are pretty good and pro consumer.
You didn’t used to be able to refund your stream purchases if you downloaded or installed them at all. The fact that they forced intrusive DRM with a single player game in HL2.
Valve was seen as a very unfriendly company until about 2010
how quickly people forget valves pro-consumer shit was forced by regulations and countries suing them into compliance.
Such as?
https://www.cnet.com/culture/entertainment/valve-to-pay-3-million-fine-for-misleading-australian-gamers/
Losing that fight is the big reason why valve made all the changes its did to be better for consumers.. and I wager they did it cause they saw where the dominos would fall if more countries went after them, So they did it themselves to paint it like a big pro-consumer thing instead of a preventing-further-legal-costs thing.
Personally, I am okay with Valve not always being the company they are now. A government did its job and the company it affected became consumer friendly [and still dominated the market by believing in a market no other major publisher wanted to touch at the time]. This is what governments are created for: helping the citizens while letting these companies innovate.
Valve basically killed the second hand market of PC Games with their Steam keys tied forever to one account. CD Keys was a thing before Steam but only for online games and if you sold the game or lended it out to a buddy the next person could play with same key. Nope too pro consumer thought Valve, made it mandatory for singleplayer games like Half-Life 2. They forced people buying Half-Life 2 to install Steam & create Steam account which at the time was not ready and basically just an early DRM to tie license forever to one account.
Many people could not even play at release, they could not prove they owned what they had bought, cause servers were overloaded so they were locked out of playing an offline singleplayer game on their own computer. Unfortunately that is custom nowadays when big games launch with contrived shitty online service crap forced down gamers throats. Valve basically pioneered that shit among many other douchey moves. They are better than scum like EA & Ubisoft especially these days but far from perfect. So no they all suck to some degree.
For now.. Things can always change and it's usually for the worst.
I personally believe Costco does suck but somehow a large number of people are blind to it.
Canonical 🏴
No, they suck too.
Doing a very similar tactic to Apple with their snaps.
Whoever buys apple shit will learn eventually. Or just go extinct.
Smell coming out from this little hole here :)
Well, now they can use their own Facebook App Store on iPhones in EU, so not sure it really changes anything for them.
Their own Facebook App Store would have to pay the same fees to Apple as the Apple App Store under Apple's generous terms. Losing the web app escape hatch is a 30% revenue loss
Yeah, I'll wait until EU has their say, because the shit Apple came up with goes against what EU is trying to achieve.
Why should I pay apple because my user decided to buy a shitty phone
As a sysadmin and self-hoster this decision will absolutely make me drop Apple 150%. A clean and well implemented pwa was a big reason I have stuck with my iPhone 12 despite buying a pixel 7. I know there are options on Android but they all have issues either in ux or in ui that makes it very obvious I’m using a pwa.
Another reason to keep hating apple. Fascists corporate america
Holy shit if this is true it will be a game changer for me . Will be start looking android devices. Such a retrograde movement!
It is true
Well, definitely sounds like something they'd do. EU might force them not to, though. Only time will tell how it turns out. But definitely recommend the move to Android!
Queue the Apple dick riders defending their precious megacorp from being a POS company
*Cue
Nah, they are lining up to defend their favorite company.
Que?
Queue?
Qwayway?
The probably couldn't afford the development /s
But on the positive side, Apple is now forced to allow other app stores on all phones in the EU.
So that's probably a bigger win than this is a loss.
Depends on whether your app is distributed as a PWA or not. Mine is, so it kinda touches me personally.
@rikudou@lemmings.world Just an update for you. I just tried my PWA app on last stable version of iOS 17.4 and it works again. I made a quick google search if it's just me, or Apple actually reversed they decision and I found this (from https://developer.apple.com/support/dma-and-apps-in-the-eu/#dev-qa ):
Finally, some good news.
Marketing and build quality goes a long way to making people feel like a company is good.
What's this fabled build quality that other phones in the same price range don't have?
Sure others have the same build quality, but not the decades of marketing that Apple has. You gotta have both to get people to be irrationally loyal to a company.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Apple is officially axing support for progressive web apps for iPhone users located in the European Union.
While web apps have been broken for EU users in every iOS 17.4 beta so far, Apple has now confirmed that this is a feature, not a bug.
In an update to its developer website spotted by 9to5Mac, Apple says it’s removing homescreen apps for users in the EU because bringing them into compliance with the Digital Markets Act (DMA) would involve “an entirely new integration architecture” that’s “not practical” to build on top of the other changes it’s been forced to make.
In its post, Apple argues that web apps are built “directly on WebKit” — the engine used by Safari — allowing web apps to “align with the security and privacy model for native apps on iOS.” With the change to iOS 17.4, websites added to the homescreen now act only as bookmarks that open a new tab in your browser, rather than (potentially) standalone services capable of doing things like sending notifications and showing badges, a feature Apple just added to web apps last year.
Progressive web apps on iOS are also capable of storing data separately from your browser instance, which comes in handy if there’s a site you want quick access to and don’t want to keep signing in.
“Still, we regret any impact this change — that was made as part of the work to comply with the DMA — may have on developers of Home Screen web apps and our users.” Apple cites “very low user adoption” of homescreen apps as another reason for the lack of support.
The original article contains 399 words, the summary contains 272 words. Saved 32%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
TL;DR: Fuck Apple.
I was starting to love pwa... But this is going to kill the momentum it was starting to have 😢
Well, let's hope EU fines them all the way to bankruptcy (I know that's not gonna happen, but one can dream).
The EU could force Apple to sell their iPhone business. That's listed as the maximum penalty for a DMA violation for companies that "systematically" fail to open up their platform.
apple wouldn't do that, they'd withdraw from the EU first
I wish this. Like Microsoft and google constantly making dependent users mad shitting on them
This is probably motivated by the EU decision that since no uses iMessage in the EU, Apple is not legally a "gatekeeper". Perhaps no one (i.e. fewer than 40 million people) uses web apps in the EU, therefore they are gambling that they are allowed to legally gatekeep in that market
I don't think so, they're just trying to make the experience worse and then say "it's the EU that made us do it".
That shit brand created a cult for dimwits thinking they are better and smarter than everybody else by becoming platform slaves, and thus be exploited, as their only benefit of their deficiencies and dependency is consumism.
In real life ive never met anyone who thinks owning one brand of things makes you better than anyone else. If you have friends that think that way, maybe dont be friends with them, thats toxic. If it realy annoys you, block them so you dont see them online, lower the negativity impact on your mind. If you dont want to support a brand that has a product you want, buy it used so they dont get any money.
I guess you haven't met the San Francisco twats that were driving around in Teslas while wearing Vision Pros. Just because you haven't met one doesn't mean they don't exist.
I like there hardware but I don't like what they do with it and what they do with the software
They do have good software in some things but their limitations make it not worth it
How will this affect the Lemmy client Voyager? Is it considered a web app? My understanding was that it was.
Official announcement from Voyager:
Using an iPhone in the EU? Please install the Voyager native app. Apple is killing support for PWAs
As far as I know, it is a web app, meaning it could no longer be installed and will only work as a bookmark that opens your default browser.
No? It’s in the App Store! https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/voyager-for-lemmy/id6451429762 This PWA charge will only affect websites that you pin to your Home Screen.
Ah didn't know it was in the App Store now. Good. Thanks.
been there since the Reddit Exodus or shortly after
Edit: ok I looked into my app history, installed Mlem on 22.07.23 and Voyager on 17.09.23, felt like a week in my memory.. But Voyager is not new in the iOS Appstore and IMHO was one of the best Lemmy Apps for iOS since launch.
It definitely wasn’t there during the exodus. IIRC, there were also some features missing from it when it hit the App Store too, so the web app was still the better choice.
It is, they have an official app store app as well though. However I find mlem to be a smoother experience, particularly scrolling, and it tends to keep its position when being backgrounded better than memmy and voyager.
A lot of kerfuffle over not much. If you’re going to release a web app instead of a proper app, then I’m quite happy to have a bookmark to the web page instead of a bullshit fake app wrapping the same bookmark. Don’t clutter my phone with that garbage.
And you're right for feeling that way, but having more choices is always better, not less. Apple doesn't care for how you use their software if it isn't the way they want it.
Progressive web apps do much more than just wrap a bookmark....
Most PWAs are trash, but there are some nice ones out there that feel a lot better when you ditch the browser chrome. Voyager for Lemmy is a good one. It feels native.
Most native apps are trash too.
Well, I'm definitely not paying Apple $99 a year to be on their shit store, so I've opted for PWA. It's made as an app from the scratch, not really much different from a native app.
It's more than that - for example in Safari after seven days with a bookmark, all data the website stores on device is deleted.
With a PWA saved to your home screen, your data is kept until you delete the icon from your home screen.
Also, PWAs don't have a browser toolbar.
Does this affect the UK as well as they aren’t in the European Union anymore?
Most likely not, UK does not use EU laws anymore.
What are some popular examples that would be affected by this?
my own reddit viewer https://rdx.overdevs.com
He said "popular"
one day sugartits, one day
If I'm understanding right, I believe Xbox Cloud Gaming and Geforce Now have used this. They get access to better video APIs by running as a home screen webapp, and aren't at risk of popping the address bar from touch confusion.
Voyager, a client for Lemmy, also installs as a webapp. Similarly, it doesn't show the address bar when you scroll up and down.
Mind you Voyager has a wrapped iOS app already. Posting from it right now.
Popular? None.
But we don't only have to build an environment that allows the doing of popular things. We also need to maintain a society in which unpopular or unusual things can be done. The doing of unpopular or unusual things is itself popular.
Here's a list of Non-Open Source web apps: https://www.neoito.com/blog/best-progressive-web-apps/
Here's a list of Open Source web apps: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_free_and_open-source_web_applications
The barrier of entry for these apps are just so low. You don't have to download anything for them to work and (for now) they're crossplatform.
If you haven't yet, you might want to try voyager on your lemmy instance: https://vger.app/
Cryptee is one that comes to mind.
This f*cking sucks. I hope they don't bring this to Australia, I want to make my native app a web app to save money so I don't have to pay their bullshit fees and own their shit computers
Unless you force them to open up their system for 3rd party stores and browsers like EU did, I think you're fine.
I wish we were doing that here too. Hopefully when we do we'll take some learnings based on Europe's experience.
ps: Thanks for the Auto TL;DR bot, has saved me a lot of time assessing articles
Glad I helped you!
An update from Apple. Apple actually reversed that decision. Finally. Tested on latest stable version of iOS 17.4 and it works. (from https://developer.apple.com/support/dma-and-apps-in-the-eu/#dev-qa ):
Finally, some good news.
My guess is that the majority doesn't know what web apps are. Most people I know either have an app for that or consider a function not worthwhile or necessary.
Nah. They are just locking down a pathway for using whatever you want on a device you purchased.
It's all about brand and glam. Majority of people that need validation from others "need" to have an iPhone.
Don't forget the walled garden. Apple does have a reputation they worked hard to achieve, and people who don't know better feel compelled to try, but than, switching to Android becomes a very difficult task