Do you ever worry that you're secretly a psychopath that unknowingly manipulates people around you?

Thorny_Insight@lemm.ee to No Stupid Questions@lemmy.world – 292 points –

Someone recently told me that they sometimes feel gaslighted around me because I effortlessly make them question their beliefs and feelings. Hearing that didn't sit well with me, especially since I've been pondering the question in the title for quite some time.

I've always been quite critical of myself and don't consider myself a very nice person. When I discover that someone doesn't enjoy being around me, I don't blame them one bit. It's not like I'm intentionally mean or abusive; quite the opposite, actually. I have very strong morals. However, this includes things like not lying, which means I always speak the truth, even if not everyone likes hearing it. I don't conform to many social norms expected of me.

Despite all of this, I have deep relationships with several people and especially the elderly and for example the parents of my past girlfriends have all liked me a lot. But I can't help but wonder why they don't see me as I see myself. I worry that I'm hiding the true me so well that people don't actually like me, but rather the facade I unknowingly maintain. Then again, a true psychopath probably wouldn't be second-guessing themselves in this manner.

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You should talk to a therapist.

Asking this question and being self critical is a good sign.

Being told you are gaslighting is NOT necessarily a sign you are a psychopath. They could be gas lighting you. Or you could just have some other blind spots about your own behavior.

People throw gaslighting around willy nilly now, so it could jest mean OP made them think about some opinion they had.

It’s very hard to say without knowing the person, but I think your advice is good.

You should talk to a therapist.

Definitely. This.

It's really the only good answer OP is likely to get on the internet.

You sound like someone on the ASD spectrum - honest, principled, not confirming to social norms, overthinking. You had to mask to survive, yes, so obviously there is a facade, but that don't make you a thief. You are thoughtful & intelligent, & capable of using logic to steer the conversation, but that don't make you manipulative. You are honest man with morals, how can you not be kind? Why don't you consider yourself a nice person?

For what it's worth, ADHD folks tend not to fit social norms, either, and have blind spots about their behavior and how people perceive them.

Why don’t you consider yourself a nice person?

I'm a bit arrogant at times and have very little patience with people I don't find interesting. If I like my own company better than being around someone else they'll probably going to notice. I also find most topics that "normies" talk about to be extremely uninteresting which is why for the most of the time I just remain silent and then when I do open my mouth it's often something that goes against the common narrative or just otherwise is easy to misunderstand. Then there's often this one guy in that group who later comes to me in private and tells me that they totally agree with what I said earlier. Those are the people I then bond with.

Yep, ASD. We are intelligent. We are perfectionists. We take our sweet time to learn about the world around us. Once we've learnt about something, we are quite sure of it, & hence we're strongly opinioniated on things we know. Stupidity, and not being able to see things correctly may even 'trigger' us, & hence we can come across as arrogant. We can see the forest for the trees, but we lose our minds because the rest of the world only sees the trees for the trees.

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Someone recently told me that they sometimes feel gaslighted around me

Are you sure that they know what that word means? Most of the time I see the word gaslighting, they actually mean something else.

What does it mean? It's a relatively new term and I've seen it used to describe everything from accidental logical fallacies to being short-changed at the liquor store

I'm going to try to explain the origins from memory so someone who knows more will probably explain better.

It comes from an book or a movie, where a husband is planning something nefarious (don't remember if it's a murder or something) and he uses the attic of his house to do it. This is set back in the days when they used gas for lighting things and when he turns on the lighting in the attic, it causes the lights to change (probably get dimmer) in the rest of the house. His wife notices this and brings it up to him, since he obviously doesn't want to reveal that he is the one causing it, he constantly convinces his wife that it's all in her head and that she might be losing her mind.

From the wiki article describing the play/movie the phrase comes from:

"In the story, the husband secretly dims and brightens the indoor gas-powered lighting but insists his wife is imagining it, making her think she is going insane."

Imo it's when someone is deceived by a person who lies about the actual state of affairs/reality to make the other person question what they experienced as credible. I don't think that's the same as when someone helps question beliefs in general because skepticism is good to make sure we aren't self deluding, but if that person is lying about reality to manipulate them it becomes bad/gaslighting.

Another example I think is from it's always sunny in Philadelphia in the episode where Dennis and Mac go to live in the suburbs and Mac asks Dennis if he hears a beeping the audience can hear and Dennis says he can't until he blows up saying of course he can when berating Mac. Dennis is angry at Mac and in retaliation he gaslights him about the annoying beeping sound to manipulate him into questioning if the beeping is real or an audio hallucination.

Edit: just realized it's possible it's always sunny was doing an homage to Gaslight in that episode as they've done similar things in the past with other older movies and TV shows

Hey, thanks for taking the time to reply to my hasty, poorly put together message. The point I was trying to make was that the original meaning has been lost when the word became popular. It is a somewhat obscure word with a loose definition based on an obscure reference and it describes something for which the language was more than ready to describe anyway. I think that instead of telling people to try and use the word correctly, one should tell then to not use it at all.

Gaslighting is the process of making someone question their own beliefs. It's usually seen in the context of abusive relationships, but any person can gaslight any other person in whatever context (i.e., politics, etc).

No, that is exactly the over-broad, willy-nilly, tossed-around definition they were talking about. Gaslighting has a much more insidious context than simply making someone question themselves. It means doing it on purpose; intentionally lying to someone and trying to convince them that they're crazy. Like if I said I was going to the grocery and then when I came back with nothing, I insisted I never said that. Or if i borrowed $50 and when it came time to pay you back, I try to tell you I only borrowed $25. It's inherently deceptive and cruel.

It's not really beliefs in the general sense, it's making them question reality, their memory, their reasons for doing things.

Plus with the context of malicious intent and lying.

Getting a racist to question their racist beliefs isn't gaslighting, but would fit the vague definition of getting someone to question their reality, their memory, and their reason for doing things when they have fallen into racist dogma.

Not to be an armchair psychologist over here (you should probably see a therapist) but it sounds more like autism, not psychopathy.

You're probably right - or atleast less wrong. I don't really think it's psychopathy either.

"To be autistic is to be misunderstood"

I have ASD and I have historically worried about the same thing, as has my sister. From the outside ASD and psychopathy can look similar to untrained eyes. The biggest "tell" is how you feel (or dont feel) inside.

I recommend looking into Autistic Masking to see if that explains the "alter ego" you seemed to describe earlier.

While you're researching this, I will tell you that autism is probably the one thing where you will have better luck listening/talking to other autistic people than to just read data from something like the DSM-5. There are a lot of YouTube people with various profiles of autism and I have had far better luck learning from them and an autistic friend than anything clinical.

There are also different profiles of ASD. The main ones are:

  • Classic Autism
  • Asperger's (now called HFA or High Functioning Autism, but there is still a LOT of info out there from when it was still called Asperger's)
  • PDA or Pathological Demand Avoidance So be sure to check out all of them before thinking you aren't just because one doesn't fit. I thought I wasn't autistic for YEARS because I did not know the right profile.

Long story short, ASD is HUGE and largely not understood. If you have questions, shoot me a message. As you look around, I'm sure you'll learn about Autistic Special Interests. Psychology and especially ASD are mine, so I'm happy to rant teach about it forever.

Good luck in your journey!

It doesn't seem like you're a sociopath, it seems like you have ASD. That kind of analytical, no nonsense approach to socialization is typical of high functioning ASD.

It might be worth looking into, of for no other reason than to better understand yourself

Well I wasn't going to comment because I thought everyone here was going to say "you're describing everyone we all feel that way" but I guess not haha

Everything you said in your original post is something I've said when describing myself to my SO or friends. I've been called condescending and I've worked very hard to not be that way. Sometimes when I start hanging out with someone new or get a new coworker I can tell by first impressions they aren't going to like me. Nowadays I can usually turn it around but in the past I would just try not to bother them. People will say "why do you hate me?" and it will catch me off guard because I dont feel that way at all.

I'm also told I can be very argumentative. I get that less now as I am more aware of it, but people who know me know that I am passionate about my opinions.

I don't have any advice besides thank people who give you feedback. Being yourself doesn't mean not working on your social skills, they can be trained like anything else. I've definitely learned better habits, I have more and closer friends through years of work and introspection.

Also you are not a psychopath and there isn't anything wrong with you. Most likely your social type isn't the majority and you have to work a bit harder to gel with the mainstream. Its just something to be aware of. I often feel like my '"true self" is hidden from others, so I try to be as real as possible with my SO and my closest friends.

I relate to this. People who know me know that my thoughts and the things I say can be quite challenging. I’ve never been one to simply accept what’s considered acceptable. I always question everything, I’m always thinking about how things can change and be different.

I’m always hoping to help people see what can improve their lives, but sometimes it’s not our place to say things or do things to help other people like that. A lot of people don’t want someone who can see their weakness and try to show them a way to improve, it’s demeaning and insulting to most people.

I’ve always tried to have a positive outlook on constructive criticism, but what constitutes constructive criticism and something further is a lot different for one person than it is for the next.

Also, I should clarify that sometimes what we think is the right path to solving an issue isn’t always the right path for someone at all. It’s a huge presumption to think that we can analyze a person’s life and make the best choices for them. Heck, I can hardly even do that with my own life, let alone someone else’s.

are you sure it isn't autism

Or complex PTSD. That's what I have and the two have a TON of behavioral overlap. My therapist and I spent a good amount of time determining if I was autistic or not.

im interested in that. I have every symptom of every type of retardation

There's a great book called Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving. It's mostly a primer on how CPTSD works but does have content on what to do about it. Just putting a name to things is huge.

I started with the audiobook, primarily listening to it on my drive home. I knew it had nailed it for me when I realized I had spent an entire week's worth of commutes home rage crying.

I was about to say the same thing, I have literally had this exact thought process and last year got diagnosed...

Maybe it's maybelline maybe it's ASD.

Feel free to message me if you have questions, I'm dealing with it all at the moment :/

Psychopathy is a popular catch-all term. "Low-empathy" is better, but I think you're just a critical person and most people don't like criticism or self-reflection.

Are you capable of feeling guilt or remorse? If so you are probably not a psychopath. If not you might have some traits. In any case you might want to see a professional.

Also autism is often mistaken for some degree of psychopathy. As an autist I have personal experience with this.

Oh definitely. I just had a spider get stuck on a glue trap meant for thrips and I felt bad the whole day.

From the comfort and authority of my armchair, as a (fake) psychologist, I declare that you can't be a psychopath if you feel guilty about a spider (and other beings, especially humans).

I think of gaslighting as manipulation of a victim by an abusive person by causing the victim to doubt their own feelings and perceptions, thereby gaining control over them. They do this by convincing the victim that what they are feeling and observing is false and the fault of the victim rather than the abuser.

This has a better explanation and some clear examples:

https://www.newportinstitute.com/resources/mental-health/what_is_gaslighting_abuse/

I’ve had similar concerns about myself. I’ve started therapy and found out that I’m suffering from toxic shame - something originating in childhood, developing as you age, and comprehensively modifying behavior in adulthood to include masking, dissociation, lack of emotional connection, inhumanly strong moral guidelines/standards, etc. I’d suggest at least looking up the concept of toxic shame. Also, give yourself some credit and some love; whatever the cause, it’s almost certain that your behavioral patterns were set by forces outside of your control and it sounds like you’ve managed it well

To add on: questioning and reflecting on your behaviors is the first step.

I'm definitely guilty of some of this too and being more mindful of it has been... a process... that isn't easy but helps me a lot.

Just out of curiosity: When you say you always speak the truth, is that truth you speak always something negative?

Yeah, there’s an important distinction between genuine honesty and an asshole who “just tells it like it is”.

Also a difference between "always tells the truth" and "always says all of what's on their mind".

Like if someone asks if they look good in an outfit , there's a very large range of truthful replies. Some are more hurtful than others.

No, it means I don't say things that are untrue. If I can without lying avoid saying what I know someone doesn't want to hear I prefer to do that. But if you ask for my opinion you're going to get it.

Well if you're capable of worrying about it that means you're not a psychopath. Sounds more like you think critically about subjects and raise points that they never considered.

Now you may not be bringing those points up nicely, or maybe abruptly, or lack of grace. That you'll have to explore yourself. It really depends on the nature of your conversations/debates/attitude.

Life advice for everyone, read "How to win friends and influence people".

No of course not. If I'm a psychobath I wouldn't worry about it.

The undiplomatic straightforwardness you describe makes me think your empathy might be severely limited, which is sometimes looked at as a defining aspect of psychopathy. Have you heard about this guy? It's a great story.

Maybe look into being tested for ASD. This isn’t uncommon amongst us.

Something to consider in regards to honesty, is tact.There's no reason to lie, but also no reason to be abrasive. It is something I struggle with myself and how I use words.

An example of tact could be someone has bad breath your response could be: "Your breath smells like shit" or "You could use a mint"

The latter will be much better received than the former but neither are a lie and present the issue. Saying things as definitive I've noticed also comes across as harsh even if you are 100% certain of something. I don't fully grasp communication in that way but I've gotten better once I've recognized it and it has helped my interactions. Perhaps it could aid yours.

If you worry that you may be a psychopath, you’re not one!

You’d have framed this question differently. You’d be putting the blame on the other person

“Why is he/she stupid enough to think I’m gaslighting? Can’t they grow up?”

It's good to be self aware and self critical but I think you're over analysing yourself and putting negative labels on you.

A true psychopath wouldn't care or have the ability to care.

The way you describe yourself you sound like you're intelligent and insightful, and it's unsurprising you would get on with older people if you're more mature than others of your age.

You do need to be careful about inadvertently manipulating other people to your way of thinking - anyone needs to be careful of that, but particularly if they're skilled in being persuasive. Just because you can persuade people to your way of thinking does not mean you are always right. I'm able to do the same in real life but have to frequently stop myself and think - it's really important to learn to be open to other positions before you rush in and try to change people's minds.

Having said all that, that is not "gaslighting". You may need to understand what your friend is saying. It may be that actually you are doing a good thing in persuading them. Or it may be you're inadvertently doing harm.

Or it may just be that your friend is very impressionable - some people are a bit like pillows - they will take on the opinion of the last person they spoke to much like a pillow takes an indent from the l last head they laid on. That'd be their problem, now yours.

But you probably need to understand what it is your friend is saying so you can reflect on whether they are right or wrong to blame you.

Overall though, you seem to take quite a negative view of yourself or are worrying you are a "bad person" (although a psychopath isn't bad, they're just built differently; but obviously that seems bad to a lot of people). The fact you worry about being a psychopath shows you are not one, but also it shows you seem to be feel bad or guilty about who you are. You should explore why that is. As others have said, therapy can be a good way to do that. But having self awareness and a degree of self criticism (within limits) is already a powerful thing; but it can be a bad thing when that is paired with low self esteem.

I'm gonna guess that "Quite the opposite; I have very strong morals. This however icludes things like not lying which means that I always speak the truth and not everyone likes hearing it. I don't follow many of the social norms expected of me."

is the reason for this

"A person recently said to me that they sometimes feel gaslighted around me because I so effortlesly make them question their own beliefs and feelings."

It's good to remember that most of our society is based on lying, and that most people prefer someone nice, rather than someone honest.

most people prefer someone nice, rather than someone honest

I try to identify those people fast to keep away from them.

Honestly it's almost impossible for me to think of someone who isn't like that. Have you found people who aren't..?

Nobody likes the bad kind of “honest” where someone is constantly an asshole for no reason, then hides behind “well would you rather I lie about my hatefulness?” as though it’s the honesty that people dislike rather than the views they’re being honest about.

But plenty of people appreciate honesty from those who also happen to be otherwise good people.

That isn't honesty, that is being a bully with an excuse. Those people tend to be inconsistent enough that it becomes clear they are not even being honest.

Agreed, but they call it honesty, so when someone says they’ve never encountered a single person who appreciates their honesty, it’s my first suspicion.

That might reflect on you just as much as the people you're suspicious of. What I'm talking about is that someone can ask your honest opinion, you break it to them as gently as you can, and they are obviously crushed by it. There are other varieties of it too, but that's the one that sucks the most and illustrates that honesty is just not really what most people want if it's at all a difficult truth.

If you want to play the "I know you're a shitty person by one comment on the internet" game, go ahead.

Something being my first suspicion is quite different from it being a knowledge claim.

Not sure why you needed to express it if there wasn't an implication

I can think of only three people I have ever known out of the thousands of people that I have interacted with in my lifetime that actually preferred honesty over politeness.

I prefer honesty.

This is a cultural value, fyi. You might enjoy another culture more if that’s an option for you.

I’m an immigrant in Germany studying to be a German teacher for new immigrants. As part of our curriculum, we were given this question to answer for ourselves and share with the group (about 80% German, with one each South American, North American, and Russian student, plus five Asian students, in grad school):

your roommate, whom you like and want to preserve a good relationship with, has spent many weeks knitting herself a sweater and she’s really excited about it. You see her around campus and can tell from afar that she’s wearing the sweater and that you don’t like it. What do you say to her?

The Asian and Russian students wouldn’t address it; the American students would say that it was very cool that she’d actually made her own clothing, which they both believed would be true, if oblique; and the German students would tell her it didn’t look good, though about half would also try to find something they did like about it (fit or color or knit pattern) to compliment as well.

That’s a tiny sample size, obviously, but it was interesting to me and I found it completely insane that some Germans would just tell their roommate that they didn’t like her sweater. My old roommate told me he thought my lipstick was too dark on my wedding day when I was showing him pictures several weeks later, though. Unfortunately the class came afterwards and I was very annoyed with him at the time. I still kind of am, but I’m trying to be culturally accepting 😅

Yeah I kind of feel that way too. People will even say they want the truth but they often don't. I even fall into that category sometimes though I generally think I would much prefer the truth. I kind of get it, the truth is really hard to deal with sometimes. But I can't understand always putting it behind "being nice".

I have learned to not volunteer anything that is less that gushing praise if someone doesn't ask first. I also don't ask questions where I might not like a negative response, although that hasn't even come up in a few years as my ability to take and process criticism is pretty solid.

I'm autistic and have much better luck finding "plain" conversation with other autistic people. No idea I'd you are or aren't but you'll welcome to join the community of you aren't a bullshitter.

It can be a little weird to get used to because the whole world lies, but man, is it refreshing once you do and have the trust/rapport to just speak plainly with friends.

I appreciate this response. I'm not autistic but sometimes I have thought I could be on the spectrum. Nothing diagnosed yet though. I have commented and lurked in that community here and have sometimes felt like I have some things in common with y'all. Have a great evening.

Me. If I found out that you're being nice but dishonest, I'll cut my interactions with you almost immediately, and the ones I'm forced to have will be minimal and devoid of any personal information, as you have proven not to be trusthworthy.

Depends. Are they nice before they're honest? Or are they nice while also being honest?

They aren't mutually exclusive labels, so you might just be a positive person that doesn't pick up on nefarious clues so well and thusly aren't going to recognize the kind of casual dishonesty being referenced here.

I think you may be assuming gaslighting is something only done by the wicked. Some "nice" people, who I think they're referencing, will be "nice" in incredibly cruel ways. Those are the people to avoid. People who will call you "friend" and be friendly, but then not even mention or invite you to their wedding, or ghost YOU over drama in their life ... all forms of people running friendships dishonestly while still putting a "nice" front on is what I think of when I hear bad nice guy. There are A LOT of them depending on what social circles you roam; people jockying for social status using kind words without kind action.

Yes, people universally like "nice" people, but not all "nice" people are good people.

While people can be polite and honest, it is clear that they are talking about someone who cares far more about one than the other.

I know, I'm just trying to describe the type of person who is nice but not good, since they said they cannot think of someone like that.

The times that I have to tell someone the uncomfortable truth happens far less often that you'd think. Many of the white lies we tell are completely unecessary.

Hmm, you say they’re unnecessary, and yet you are in a situation where people say they’re uncomfortable around you…

If you don’t bother with white lies and think that goes down okay, then maybe the other person is pretending they’re okay with it when it does actually bother them.

So they’re then telling a white lie of their own to spare your feelings, or just because they want to move on from the subject.

Someone recently told me that they sometimes feel gaslighted around me because I effortlessly make them question their beliefs and feelings

That says more about them than about you. An intelligent, stable adult shouldn't be able to be so easily affected, even if they were in a room with Hannibal Lecter.

I've always been quite critical of myself

Lots of people are. That's a good thing, as long as it's constructive criticism. Sometimes it can go overboard and become unhealthy.

don't consider myself a very nice person

Yeah that's not great. You should be nice.

I have very strong morals

Then I think you're not a psychopath.

However, this includes things like not lying, which means I always speak the truth, even if not everyone likes hearing it. I don't conform to many social norms expected of me

That's great! I wish more people in the world were like this.

However, it's also important to say things in a respectful way. That doesn't mean beating around the bush or sugar coating anything. It just means take their feelings into account.

E.g. if someone asks you if they are good at their job, and the truth is they suck, don't say "no, you suck" (unless they deserve it). Say "there's room for improvement. You can get there by working on x, y, and z." The latter is constructive and gives them a bit of light at the end of the tunnel. In a way, that is more truthful than no light at all. Everyone can improve and change and better themselves, and it's important to remind others (and yourself) of that.

Not conforming to society is great. I wish fewer people conformed.

But I can't help but wonder why they don't see me as I see myself

No one can do that but you.

I worry that I'm hiding the true me so well that people don't actually like me, but rather the facade I unknowingly maintain

That's called being an adult. As a child, we aren't required to regulate our emotions, or enter complicated relationships with others. Life is full of tradeoffs, and after enough of them, even if you always make the best choices, you'll still be far from where you felt when you started. We're all strangers in foreign lands after a while. That doesn't make you a psychopath; it makes you human.

Sociopaths are quite often like this, blunt, moral and intelligent. They're moral out of logic instead of empathy, and I'm not convinced it ain't better.

moral out of logic instead of empathy

That's interesting. I'm definitely capable of feeling empathy but my morals are firmly tied to logic and reason. That's why they're so universal and I don't put them aside even when it's about a person I don't (or shouldn't) like. This inconsistency driver me crazy about some people. They might for example present themselves as a kind and compassionate person but then they read an article about someone they don't like and all decency goes out the window and they start writing horrible comments about them. The inverse of that is when I remain calm and measured about something and give people the benefit of the doubt then all of a sudden I'm the bad person for not getting angry about something that I don't even have all the facts on.

I sometimes wonder if the emotions I display are genuine or if I'm mimicking them to appear normal.

So a sociopath, basically.

That's called "masking" and is more closely associated with being autistic than sociopathy.

Apparently emotional abuse can cause it so barring an official diagnosis, that sounds spot on.

I would suggest that you find a therapist who is experienced with psychopathy and see them. Although a lot of people who are psychopaths do terrible things, not everyone does and empathetic SEEMING behaviors can be learned and be beneficial. It seems like this is bothering you and getting a diagnosis and learning how to read other people's emotions and respond appropriately might help. Even if you aren't actually feeling it, you could put them at ease and fit in better. Radical truth is great and all but little white lies get told for a reason and that's something it might help you to learn.

I'm not an advocate for radical honesty, just not lying. It's not something that I was born with but I was convinced it's the right thing to do by the book "Lying" by Sam Harris.

The psychopaths I knew were quite proud of their ability to manipulate people.

Yeah I absolutely relate to this, but challenging people yo be objective and showing them a new perspective* that is outside of the norm is not gaslighting. Asking someone to question their behavior is not gaslighting. Especially when you are here applying the same reasoning to yourself.

Gaslighting is intentionally making somebody question their perceivable reality with the intent to manipulate for your own gain. I don't think this applies to philosophical questions of morality unless you are contradicting and forcing your beliefs on them through some type of moral absolutism. I also don't think it applies if you convince someone the closed down shop was a hot dog stand and it was actually a Burger stand so long as you were honestly mistaken. If you keep them in the dark intentionally after learning the truth that would probably be though.

It is possible also that your definition of truth is too broad and you need to interject some self doubt, since we've all been wrong before, and maybe in that invitation to discuss both possibilities your approach will be refined.

In line with what others here are saying, I have the same thoughts as you and i got diagnosed with ADHD late, the psychiatrist mentioned I fit multiple criteria for ASD but that ADHD correctly captures most symptoms so we go with that. If possible taking assessments and talking to a profrssional should help cut down on these instances where you assume the worst of yourself.

As an American, I prefer to be called a Sociopath. Because of the implications for society.

No. I crit fail on every charisma check. Besides I have dealt with people who have conditions in the dark triad and nothing I do is like that.

Just remember not giving a shit isn't a superpower. For every millionaire that is a sociopath you see there are hundreds of ones you don't see divorced and poor. It is observation bias and no one cares about the boring ones.

as someone who contemplates my seemingly sociopathic demeanor in general. This is something i think about quite a bit from time to time.

Personally, i've sort of disassociated from myself and other people in regards to a lot of socialization. In order to explicitly prevent manipulative tendencies from cropping up. Generally i refer to it as giving other people explicit free will in my interactions. That tends to be through pretty vague non descript statements. Though you have to be careful to still say things that you stand behind as well. It's kind of a thing.

A lot of people would say that's not the correct thing to do. But it is what i do. It makes me feel better about interacting with other people. Also it's sort of a performance art type of thing for me, i can leverage it pretty weirdly to engage in some interesting interactions.

You should sit down with them and talk to them about it, in a mostly one sided manner (you're trying to see how they feel, not convince them of anything) and also bring up your thoughts about yourself. Gauge where they are, see if they have any similar thoughts on their end that are tangential to yours (do they feel like they easily get gaslit, or that they aren't keen on interacting with very "forward" (for lack of a better word) people. It'll give you a perspective into them, and them a perspective into you.

No, brcause I'm a total doormat who always caters to everyone else's needs before my own. Which is the opposite of a narcissist. I wish I could be. It seems more liberating than what I'm doing now.

Then again, what little self esteem I have is predicated on being able to cater to other people's needs - even my job is customer support.

I'd flip to being a user in a heartbeat if only I could.

Some nights I lie awake rewriting the game dialogue options in my head so I can say what I gotta say without making NPCs sad.

So... no.

I feel you. Nothing worse than encountering a new topic of small talk that I hadn't rehearsed for.

A person recently caught me off guard by telling me that their grand-child just had their first birthday. I later had to consult my girlfriend about how I'm supposed to react to that. Apparently I should've congratulated them.. ..for that it's someone else's birthday..? Yeah go figure. This is exactly the kind of thing that makes me feel so outsider in this world.

I have these thoughts myself and I find what you describe seem to apply to me as well. I’ve been trying to follow the saying of. Speak only when it’s true, kind, and necessary.

It’s not easy. I fail often.

Psychopaths don't unknowingly manipulate.

You'll be surprised to hear this is often not the case

Well, if I am, I'm really bad at it.

I can't convince a mouse to eat cheese.

this includes things like not lying,

Then stay quiet, if what you have to say is only negative. A white lie is OK to not make people sad or offend them if it's matters of little importance. There's this thing called being polite. And that includes for instance saying dinner is nice when it isn't.

I'm guessing you are a bit autistic, i can absolutely relate to what you say, and the above took me decades to learn, and I'm still struggling with it.

I find it entertaining that answering questions honestly implies someome has a disorder.

"Why didn't you like the peas?"

"They were overcooked for my tastes."

Society: "What a rude jerk, they should have lied to make the person who cooked feel better."

And the flipside of it is that when you yourself commit to not lying it makes you even more sensitive to noticing when others do it. If I see someone comfortably lying to a 3rd party in front of me then I assume they're doing the same thing to me aswell. People even brag about situations where they've gotten ahead by lying. They're effectively advertising their untrustworthy personality. Praise is also far more valuable when coming from someone you know to tell the truth. They know I'm not saying it to please but because I mean it.

That plus everyone has different ideas of what the 'right' things to lie about are and get mad if someone lies about the 'wrong' thing.

It is mostly to avoid the conflict of the other personn overreacting to differences in opinion as well.

Obviously it depends, you need to consider the work people have put into something, rudely saying you don't like it is just that, rude.
If it's overcooked, they probably know it already. No need to make that comment, unless you like being an asshole.

If they don't ask, I don't say anything. Asking and being mad about someone not lying to protect your feelings when they don't praise your effort is rude.

For example, why is the person who knows something is overcooked asking how it is? If I take a bite and don't eat it, then they ask why, they are being rude by putting me in a situation where the social expectation is to lie.

Exactly. I treat others as I want to be treated myself. This means that if I'm asking something I'm expecting an honest answer. If I don't want to know I don't ask.

Personality disorder characterized by persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, and egotistical traits Wikipedia

Seems you’re not since in this post you show empathy, remorse, and examining your flaws is anti-egotistical. Though you may think of not conforming to social norms as antisocial behavior, many people do this and put on a “public” facade.

Though, being “honest to a fault” is a little antisocial depending on how far you take that. Is it just “I never give a lie to a direct question.” Or: Do you always correct people who you know told a lie? Do you interject in stories where a lie has been told? Do you tell people unsolicited truths that are hurtful? Some would consider the latter list of behaviors to be antisocial.

It’s good to self-evaluate. I know I have some manipulative habits, I definitely lie too easily, sometimes without remorse, but I don’t fit a majority of the markers: I feel immense remorse at certain things, I’m not arrogant, I’m genuinely helpful, not just manipulatively so, etc. I would consider talking more in dept with your friends that want to cut ties or express frustration and hear out their concerns. We all have areas for self improvement, so don’t just yourself too harshly. Maybe as another commenter suggested, go to therapy and see what you can uncover.

The fact you are even asking this makes me think you’re not a psychopath or sociopath.

A (psycho/socio)path would probably not be introspective at that accusation. They would probably just dismiss it or be angry that someone could even think that about them.

I am not a therapist or licensed to diagnose someone and no professional would/could ever diagnose someone without meeting them and interacting.

I would strongly suggest seeking out a therapist. I am a huge proponent of therapy for everyone - everyone needs an impartial party to talk to about things, even when things are going well.

Exactly… a psychopath is not worried about being a psychopath.

I used to. I mean, I still do, but I used to, too and the way I think about it now is just different. Went to a doctor because of it.

Turns out it was just a combination of ADHD and Borderline Personality Disorder. Maybe autism (but they wanted a specialist to handle that and I haven't done it yet).

Autism can create an internal effect similar, but critically different to being a sociopath.

A sociopath can read others fine, but doesn't get an empathic reaction. Autism stops the read itself. We are perfectly capable of feeling empathy. Without the ability to read people, we end up with little to react to. Critically, we do react eventually. It tends to be delayed, and poorly executed, but we do feel empathy.

I feel like it might be better to think about whether your specific words and actions are manipulative than whether you're a psychopath or what your identity is in general. Is that person justified in feeling gaslit? Are you in fact manipulating people or not? That's a question that can be looked at more objectively.

It's because you make them unsure of themselves. Maybe. If they say they feel gaslit around you, because you make them think, maybe remind them "gaslighting" is more convincing them they're crazy, not wrong exactly. This can also seem like gaslighting to that type.

1000% I feel whenever someone has a connection with me i'm manipulating them, I'm diagnosed bipolar so I overthink things a lot sometimes.

As people are saying, a true psychopath might not even question themselves. That said, it is probably a spectrum and we all may have such tendencies - and I mean like 100% of the population, as a shared human condition, to lie somewhere on that spectrum. It seems a good thing to me to examine myself in that manner and maybe dial down, or perhaps even dial up, those things. Especially when others misuse the words, twisting them to suit their own perspectives - e.g. calling someone "unstable" if they want to escape them, the abuser.

Also there are generational differences, and even generational (and other) traps - e.g. a lot of older MAGA parents in the midwestern USA have been abandoned by their children, who want to do things like "take the vaccine" (which I chose to highlight the discussion since it is a decision involving fully literal life-and-death consequences, plus also likelihood of permanent brain damage, which is what we now know long-covid to be), so in such cases is it truly the children who are being "unstable" and "aggressive" to leave, or rather the fault of the parents who attempt to force their christofacist belief structures onto their children, leaving no room in the latter to have their own thoughts or desires?

These are complex, weighty matters, and won't be resolved quickly, but are good to think about regardless.

If that's the case I'm a lousy one.

No. I don't do any of this stuff and it has never occurred to me to do it.

Maybe reflect on how the other person is feeling with your comments and adapt if possible. Sometimes you can't. My SO grandma says racist stuff to me all the time and I just laugh inside. I could debate her but what value is there for me. She's on deaths door anyway. Grandma also used to trash talk mom until my SO said stop it. Those are examples of Just go with the flow or end the behavior that is causing stress.

Everyone manipulates everyone around them unknowingly all the time. Even altruistic behavior exists partly because it makes other people think good things about you.

Only if you'd stop all human contact would you stop that. We're built to want things (mostly sex+resources) from other people, and we're equipped to get it.

We also all have "dark" ("psychopathic") thoughts & behaviors that we're hiding, not only from others but also ourselves. Some people embrace them more than others, some people resist them more than others.

I can suggest The Moral Animal for deeper understanding.

I choose to handle this by not interacting with people.

My wife, a psychologist, says that you could be a psychopath, but its much more likely you have borderline personality disorder or are on the austism spectrum

i don't because i don't meet the diagnostic criteria for ASPD

No. That's a very weird thing to wonder about and almost makes me think you might actually be a psycho.

A psychopath wouldn't be worried about whether they're a psychopath.

They would be worried abouth whether others perceive them as being a psychopath.

With a name like Thorny_Insight, I imagine you’ve already accepted and internalized the possibility that your internally critical mindset is equally external. This doesn’t make you evil, it doesn’t make you awful to be around, it just means that you have embraced the personality that you currently question, even if it isn’t who you truly are.

The world is becoming a very different place and the personality you have is one which is constantly questioned by people that think what is good is conformity and acceptance of anything and everything. There is no reason you need to conform or accept everything at face value.

No, because I knowingly manipulate the people around me. I'm firmly against violence, including emotional and verbal violence, so I make the effort to manipulate people with misdirection and incentives rather than threats or punishment.

Every manipulates others all the time, whether they know it or not, whether they admit it or not. The important thing is to do it ethically, and how can you do that if you're not aware of the effects you have on others?

It's good that you are engaging in self-examination in this way. I might suggest that there's a difference between being honest and being blunt. Just because you refuse to lie does not mean you always need to tell the truth, rather that you only tell the truth. You're allowed to keep silent, to leave a true-but-painful confrontation unspoken.

Oh I definitely omit information. It's just that I don't say things I don't believe/mean.

The important thing is to do it ethically

No, the important thing is not doing it for nefarious or merely self-serving purposes.

I think most people would agree those are ethical concerns.