It is literally that simple. I can't think of a single person that HAS to buy a NEW car. Keep what you have or buy used. Tell the dealerships and auto makers to fuck off! Explain why a person ever has to buy a NEW car.
As long as people are stupid and buy it the auto makers WILL continue on this path.
The simple answer is “REFUSE TO BUY THE SHIT!”
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H.L. Mencken
The reality is, individual boycotts don't do shit because people who care about their property rights are outnumbered by dipshit consumer whores by a dozen to one (if not worse). The only way to actually fix this is regulatory action by the FTC to outlaw this shit as the blatantly obvious violation of the doctrine of first sale that it is.
Also an obvious indicator of the need for something comparable to the GDPR to keep this shit manageable going forward.
The problem solves itself with decent right to repair
Sounds like we need a reduction in dipshits!
Enshitification isn't solved by voting with your dollar. If it did, the printer market wouldn't be the shit show that it is. You can't vote for the good if all the manufacturers mutually agree to only produce shit. Only regulation will keep them in line.
(inb4 "brother is better", I am aware that brother printers are generally better, but they are far from good.)
Especially when the majority of people will litterly drink shit milkshakes every damn day before they ever dream of using something that isn't their preferred brand or might require accepting some modest trade-offs.
We all suffer from enshitification because the "average consumer" makes it profitable with their apathy, their ignorance, and their laziness. And there's nothing we can about that. We're stuck in these markets with them, and they make up the majority, so they set the trends.
I will say, part of that ignorance, apathy, and laziness is an intentional part of our existing society. You can't spend the time to research every single product you ever buy, because many are stuck working several job, basically everyone is juggling their work, family, and social life.
A couple months back, I tried putting some effort into finding a printer that had all of the qualifications I wanted.
usb printing, no network needed
laser
color
not a brand that will fuck you over (looking at you HP)
within a reasonable budget of $300-$400
And such a product just doesn't exist. Brother comes close, but the market straight up isn't producing good things. So at the end of the day all I can do is either get shafted at the local print store, or suck it up and get an inferior product.
But going back to the OP, it's so much worse with cars because we have a car-centric society. You NEED a car in this place to have a normal life. Our cities and transportation have been intentionally designed to fuck over everyone not in a car.
So there is inelastic demand. The manufacturers can do whatever the fuck they want and get away with it.
You've succinctly articulated something I've been struggling to for a long time.
We all suffer from enshitification because the "average consumer" makes it profitable with their apathy, their ignorance, and their laziness.
And then you follow up with this banger:
And there's nothing we can do about that. We're stuck in these markets with them, and they make up the majority, so they set the trends.
I hate it so much, but what can those of us that actually care do other than try to educate people?
Sadly, people are not rational, and will buy the new car because it makes them feel good. They'll give them a year of free features and people will forget all about it because it's a free year and "a $5,000 value!"
I've only ever bought one new car, and that got dieselgated. I will never buy a new car again, and you won't, but there's not enough of us to stop this from happening.
I got an 03 Jetta in good trim with a 5-speed (which hardly anyone makes anymore). I’m gonna keep that fucker alive even if I have to turn it into the car of Theseus.
I have a Samurai of Theseus.
But, My wife drives a 2017 Mirage G4 with a 5 speed, and we are going to keep that thing alive however we can. And it's fairly easy, because the Mirage is very simple and is made to be easy to repair.
I will probably continue to buy new cars as I can spend my hard earned on whatever I want. Everyone’s financial situation, wants and needs are different… you shouldn’t bundle everyone else into your opinion.
That said, I wouldn’t buy a car that has a feature that I need locked behind a subscription.. I would just buy one that suits. I am not loyal to any particular brand so I don’t care.
Where will all the used cars come from?
A better solution is to counter market these products. Invest time in spreading content that tells other people how shit these products are. Not buying it doesn't do much. But spreading the good word does. Its why they pay so much to advertise and market
The only reason I see is for increased safety ratings, but sadans will never win with the trucks people drive around in now :(
So no ford, bmw, merc, tesla and who else so far?
"Corp execs literally don't care about your bitching, and will perfectly coordinate with other companies corp execs to make sure the same blanket policy is pushed and agreed upon by everyone else in the industry, thus making it the new standard and leaving the customer with no choice against it, for the 69 millionth time"
Just a reminder, such collusion is supposed to be illegal.
But we don't pay attention to those laws anymore.
The people who made those laws don't care nor enforce them because they're on the payrolls of the people breaking them. Were so fucked as a country.
"Congress reports that they don't see the issue, one congressman said 'lol I don't see what the big deal is, the market will regulate itself and just don't buy a car lmao' "
Don't blame me, I bought a KodosMobile!
Nice!
Good thing new cars are now out of the price range of most people. Credit is not as cheep and easy. All it would take is one place to start making cheep cars in a shed for the whole racket to collapse. And if you look at the history of consumer markets this happens often, even with the collusion and crime.
And if you look at the history of consumer markets this happens often, even with the collusion and crime.
EVs actually seem to make this more inevitable to me. Most people aren't capable of building a combustion engine and transmission, but EVs are fundamentally easier from the engineering side. There are complications with the batteries but the overall thing is a lot simpler. I think that's why there are already lots of Chinese EVs available for like half the price of anything here.
Yes and no, the materials to make EVs go are much harder to source. I think ICE engines are at this point nearly impossible to stop people from getting their hands on. I think I could source the parts to make a shitty ICE car/truck/thing but the batteries for an EV that has any chance could be hard. I think it does not really matter what the type of vehicle takes the market, it matters more that the current model loses viability as the consumer base can no longer afford or borrow for the modern car/truck/other.
If you can no longer get a 7 year loan for a 100k plastic monster, you have to get something else. Since there is almost nothing else new, you have to buy used (we are roughly here). Once the used market is hot enough that used cars are worth more then new ones (Think of a lada in hand being worth 2 on order) someone will disrupt that market just out of greed. Once you have another option for a cheap car/truck/thing you will see (or seen as this has happened) lobbyists push to have laws put in place to stop the upstart (CAFE, Chicken tax, motorcycle cc limits etc.). But now you don't have so much a reluctant market but an impossible one, people will literally be unable to support the old system. At this point something has to give, ether the government protections have to go, the old companies are forced to change, or the increasing the ability of the consumer to spend more (ether though subsidies or cheap loans). I think the overall economic situation means the cheap loans are out for now, subsides are rarely popular for luxury items (the current model has forced vehicles into this category), the governments are not so stable around the world making upholding unpopular laws less feasible, and lastly the old companies are at the end of the day going to pick profit even if it means change.
You could probably just go buy some LiFePO solar kit batteries from Amazon to power your homemade electric car. They are expensive but readily available right now. They have been getting cheaper in the last year though. A 12v 100Ah one can be as cheap as $200 ...
If you took about 30-40 of those 100Ah solar batteries and wired them in series, you could make the 350-400 volts that powers a Tesla and have a comparable but not as good range. 35 of them could be about $7000 to purchase at Amazon prices.
That's possibly not even feasible with the logistics of that many batteries, but that's an example of what's available on the consumer market and comparable to what Tesla is using to make their Model 3's power. I think it's something that could be achieved by a hobbyist with a good understanding of the electronics technology and access to a good workshop. In fact I've seen it done on TV when Anthony Keidis had an old muscle car converted to electric, well over a decade ago.
I ment as a car to sell. I could not start a company in a shed to sell a cheap car using amazon batteries at the moment. Also if you look at the work to put those batteries together (aging wheels does a good job showing the effort) it kinda makes small ev production hard. Its not impossible and I would jump on a cheap dumb ev but since you can buy ice engines with a gas tank for less its still the more likely cheap option.
What is really happening is your car has hardware features that are being disabled, and you have to pay extortion money for the criminals to not disable them. It's ransomware as a service.
So the question is, who wants to buy from a company that is running ransomware as a service?
The question is, what alternative are we going to have, if all auto makers start doing this?
I just want a vehicle made like they used to be made. No computer chips and physical handles I have to turn to get the window down. An entire vehicle I can fix myself when things break down.
It shouldn't be a hard ask, but here we are... Overly complex shit, with many features no one needs.
No computer at all? Gonna have to track down something with a carburetor and hope it still runs. The newest you're gonna find is a 1991 Oldsmobile.
It's a wish, not a "where can I find it" thing.
It would be nice if the option was made available.
Not a car, but you can buy a new Suzuki DR650 that has a carburetor. At least in 2023.
You know the war that's being fought by developers against YouTube?
Now imagine that same energy directed towards car companies.
I guarantee you the moment this becomes a thing, there will be jailbreaking and a whole industry dedicated to making sure people know how to get all the benefits that their car has installed but not enabled.
Because if buying isn't owning, then pirating isn't stealing.
Buy base model ones that don't have all that shit anyway and install aftermarket?
We need Autoworker Unions to refuse this shit with us.
Why would they do that? This thing aligns with their interests (more money in the industry)
Remind me how subscription services translate to more manufacturing jobs.
Hell, half the point of the strike was that the corpos were keeping too much and not giving out raises
If every car has a seat warmer then you have to manufacture more seat warmers. Supposedly that implies in more work. But I'm sure the companies will find a way around it.
If every car has it you only need to make one kind of seat and you only need one assembly line to install that type of seat. That's less jobs overall.
Note to self: Buy older cars without the subscription bullshit.
They're going to write laws making older cars illegal to operate in the name of climate change. Places are already requiring the phase out of new gas and diesel vehicles with the stated ambition of completely switching.
Maybe not outright outlaw, but they will be taxed out of existence. Effectively you will have the choice of paying 10k in pollution taxes or 5k for the functional brake pedal subscription, and this shit will become norm.
That's possible but right now they're pretty serious about banning ICE cars in certain states by 2050 or so.
"Officer, I signaled to switch lanes but I forgot to update my card on file so the blinkers won't turn on. I was on my way to get a prepaid card for the blinkers and to open the trunk so I can get my groceries out."
No BMW owner would willing use indicators anyway.
BMW Subscriber* now 🤷♂️
"Oh no, we can't compete with Chinese manufacturers! Surely if we squeeze the customers just a little bit harder..."
Car toys is just gonna take in the bucks. These car manufacturers are thinking they can charge a subscription fee when car toys will plug in a little doohickey they just makes your heated seats work.
Cartoys will get a dcma notice and be sued into closing.
They only exist because paid features is still rare. Once real money is on the line, they'll be sued or even jailed like the gaming modchip developers.
I doubt that. If they can put an aftermarket car alarm, remote start, or radio in your car they can put a different module in to enable heated seats. Car manufacturers really do think they're gonna stop this from happening but in reality we already have this for a bunch of car related accessories.
They will encrypt the heaters' connection to the car. Breaking encryption is a dcma violation. Aftermarket can replace the entire seat but that's very expensive.
If anyone sells what the researchers figured out, they can be sued and jailed just like modchip developers have been.
And I bet I could wire the heated seats to work without even needing to take a Tesla to car toys. Heated seat circuits aren't that complicated. It's a heating element mat, maybe a motor and fan if you have cooled seats as well. You don't need software. You need a toggle switch and a thermistor.
Also reverse engineering for the purpose of interoperability is protected by the DMCA.
You could bypass and put your own hardwired switch in. But it wouldn't be integrated into the car's gui.
reverse engineering for the purpose of interoperability is protected by the DMCA.
"to the extent any such acts of identification and analysis do not constitute infringement under this title."
Modchips makers were sued and jailed. Interoperability didn't apply because they violated the "no commercial use" part of the title.
I never claimed it would be. Car toys will absolutely do what they have always done to get around car makers and provide customers with the modifications they want. That is not even a question.
Modchips are an incredibly niche product and therefore much easier to target and shutdown, millions and millions of people will seek out how to break the law to get free heated seats if subscription services become widespread
Modchips went under the radar for years. It wasn't until they became popular (modchips company making millions in profit) that the developers were sued.
Like car mods right now, as long as it's a few, it isn't worth the hassle because there is no money to take from them. If it becomes big and Cartoys starts selling lots of mod chips that break encryption, they will be sued and possibly jailed.
Heated seats use a heating element which just needs power and ground. They can't encrypt that.
Yes you can run your own wire and glue a switch to the console. But it won't work in the car's ui. And I bet everything over 5v for USB is off a computer controlled relay. So you'd have to patch into the high voltage battery and do your own dc to dc conversion.
Which would be really easy. Who cares about the UI?
If it was easy and cheap, everyone would be doing it for all their controls instead of complaining about Tesla's touch screen.
Just because you can't do it doesn't mean it isn't easy.
I didn't say I couldn't do it. I implied it would be expensive to do it commercially. Home users who do it as a hobby so their hourly rate doesn't matter can do it legally anyway.
The only backlash they listen to is the one to their wallets. Remember Netflix password crackdown backlash?
The backlash where Netflix's profit went up and it was generally a success and Netflix didn't change anything at all...?
Or was there another one I missed? Or am I confused?
That's exactly my point. All this 'widespread backlash' doesn't amount to anything unless it hurts their bottom line. There was a huge backlash when netflix introduced password sharing crackdown, but it ended up a success for them.
Oh, I didn't get what you meant I guess because people kept saying they were cancelling their accounts, I didn't think of it as a non-action backlash.
There, of course, weren't really that many people upset or cancelling
It felt like there were a lot of us who cancelled, but clearly not enough
How do you know that? Who told you? Remember it pays to lie.
I cancelled. 👍
Great, but what I was pointing out is we were told that it had very little effect by Netflix themselves.
Oh yeah, let's see what happens when Netflix is $50 a month 👍
Sounds like we need to get the ELF and the RTR folks on a conference call.
As much as I hate what it will do to the used car market we as a people need to stop buying these new cars. Like actually make it a shameful act to even be in one of these distopian devices. People love to bully and be outraged, why not point it to something like this that can be agreed on and is not hard to fix?
People want the newest shiniest thing. Cars are no longer tools, but status symbols. And people absolutely will not give up status.
Yeah, that is why shame works so well here. Status does not work to sell if is the status is negative.
Climate conference or whatever, has nothing to say about car makers actively hindering adoption of modern engines/EV?
And this shit is why I’ll never own a Tesla — or any other make that pulls this stunt.
Elon single handedly told me I shouldn't buy a Tesla
Just remember to not pay for the subscription and they will eventually stop this particular nonsense.
Again, I mean good luck with that I suppose. They do this and it will just accelerate the market to jailbreak cars.
Enough with the subscriptions!
They won't stop until the air you breathe is a subscription service.
If this becomes common enough there's gonna be a whole cottage industry of jailbreaking cars.
Yep. Until the find a way to remotely brick your vehicle like how John Deere does to its farm equipment if you hack the software. Or Microsoft bricking your PC if you don't have Genuine Windows installed.
And this is why capitalist markets don't really regulate themselves and need government intervention.
Because the handful of of companies that buy up all their competitors will just do whatever makes the most money together and consumers have no alternatives.
Bought a car with a future subscription to its remote services (climate, lock/unlock, etc). Company wants $450/year for access. Guess what we aren’t going to sign up for when the free 2 year period expires?
Vote with the wallets folks.
you bought the new car you literally failed the mission
walk dude
You beat me by 7 seconds.
This was my first thought. "sure showed them by buying that car..."
Yeah "2 years free" no it's not it was factored into the price they charged you for the vehicle.
With a large family there weren’t many options. This was the best option.
Honest question -- why not get a used vehicle that didn't have that nonsense in it?
Because used was as much as new monthly. The market is upside down and down right stupid.
Fair enough. Thanks for answering.
But wait, what features are actually behind the subscription wall? Your other comment mentions the climate system and… door locking? You can’t be serious…
Systems monitoring and I wouldn’t call it remote start because it’s a PHEV but they do. And yes, I’m serious. It’s a ridiculously overpriced service. Thank god they didn’t lock down the heated seats.
WHOOOSH. Seriously dude you're just preaching the ideal while making exceptions for yourself.
Same exact shit as 'my abortion is the only moral abortion', NIMBY, "I'm not a bad driver I just had the sun in my eyes/they came out of nowhere!"
It's fine and human nature to make exceptions for ourselves. But it's important to try to catch yourself, if so at the very least you don't look like an asshole on the internet.
I get it. What I’m saying is that they’re all doing this. You have to pick the least bad option.
Update I wouldn’t have even bothered replying if I had seen the god awful reply you added.
But that's not what you said. You preach vote with your wallet and that there weren't many options.
And is pre owned not an option? I get it we aren't all able to be perfect but it's wild to be so hypocritical in one conversation.
There’s a big difference between what this article is describing and what you’re describing. Remote features likeones you’re complaining about require a cellular service and while $450/year is very expensive, providing them for free would be silly.
The article is describing built-in features with no connectivity requirements, which is like disabling your heated seats unless you subscribe. This is what is described as rent-seeking behavior and it’s very different from overcharging for operational costs.
That’s fair.
I just bought a cellular plan for my car: $99/yr, including streaming video and audio. That seems fair to me, given the cost of adding a tablet or something to my phone bill. You paying 4.5 times is surely a ripoff
Same thing for me with 5g hotspot in my new car. They said "hey that's free for 6 months, along with enhanced onstar", and I replied keep it, I don't fucking want it.
They looked at me like I was growing a second head. They said they didn't know how to deactivate it, as nobody had asked that before. My ass. They knew better than to ask for a credit card number to activate the service, at least.
🎶 It's a bad idea, and they're all about it 🎶
Only the stupid rich people who are complete fucking idiots are gonna spend money on this. That and people irresponsible with money who are also complete morons. Anyone with a sense of financial responsibility will absolutely not buy these shitty anti consumer cars
Only the stupid rich people who are complete fucking idiots are gonna spend money on this. That and people irresponsible with money who are also complete morons.
Sadly that's enough people to turn a profit so the rest doesn't really have a choice. It's either a fully enshitificated car, or no car.
I will build one or fucking walk
Sure, and like with everything else the free market is controlled mostly by broke morons and rich assholes. So it'll happen anyways because those two groups will fall for it, believing they're entitled to nice things.
And what happens when you don't have other options in the market?
I'll keep driving my old car that has no wireless connectivity.
I could also buy an old 1969 Ford Galaxie and have it fitted with an electric motor and a trunk full of batteries to build my own electric car. We can do that with any old car actually.
I worked in design for a major global automaker, I designed and prototyped various user experiences around enabling/disabling features on demand, and paying a subscription. This was 7-8 years ago, and the context was developing countries and what we called "emerging markets" where people just bought bare bones base model vehicles, but there were always 1 or 2 highly desirable features they needed but could only get in a high spec model - they couldn't afford.
The idea tested very well, they could buy their cheap vehicle and then enable just the things they really need. And they would pay for that. I still think this is a valid and good use case for subscribing, in these markets and for these people.
Somewhere between then and today, sales and marketing entered the chat, and I know because I fought them tooth and nail. What I designed morphed into subscribing to everything for everyone.
I don't work there any more and that's part of why.
If the product is already on the car it is scummy as fuck to charge a subscription, the end. The higher price of high end vehicles is justified by the cost of adding those features to the vehicle. If they're already there and off, you're getting ripped off
That doesn't solve the issue at all, the feature is there, it just isn't enabled, extremely scummy.
If it was a modular design where you payed a one time fee for whatever you needed it would be less bad, not a damn subscription.
The simple answer is "REFUSE TO BUY THE SHIT!"
It is literally that simple. I can't think of a single person that HAS to buy a NEW car. Keep what you have or buy used. Tell the dealerships and auto makers to fuck off! Explain why a person ever has to buy a NEW car.
As long as people are stupid and buy it the auto makers WILL continue on this path.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H.L. Mencken
The reality is, individual boycotts don't do shit because people who care about their property rights are outnumbered by dipshit consumer whores by a dozen to one (if not worse). The only way to actually fix this is regulatory action by the FTC to outlaw this shit as the blatantly obvious violation of the doctrine of first sale that it is.
Also an obvious indicator of the need for something comparable to the GDPR to keep this shit manageable going forward.
The problem solves itself with decent right to repair
Sounds like we need a reduction in dipshits!
Enshitification isn't solved by voting with your dollar. If it did, the printer market wouldn't be the shit show that it is. You can't vote for the good if all the manufacturers mutually agree to only produce shit. Only regulation will keep them in line.
(inb4 "brother is better", I am aware that brother printers are generally better, but they are far from good.)
Especially when the majority of people will litterly drink shit milkshakes every damn day before they ever dream of using something that isn't their preferred brand or might require accepting some modest trade-offs.
We all suffer from enshitification because the "average consumer" makes it profitable with their apathy, their ignorance, and their laziness. And there's nothing we can about that. We're stuck in these markets with them, and they make up the majority, so they set the trends.
I will say, part of that ignorance, apathy, and laziness is an intentional part of our existing society. You can't spend the time to research every single product you ever buy, because many are stuck working several job, basically everyone is juggling their work, family, and social life.
A couple months back, I tried putting some effort into finding a printer that had all of the qualifications I wanted.
usb printing, no network needed
laser
color
not a brand that will fuck you over (looking at you HP)
within a reasonable budget of $300-$400
And such a product just doesn't exist. Brother comes close, but the market straight up isn't producing good things. So at the end of the day all I can do is either get shafted at the local print store, or suck it up and get an inferior product.
But going back to the OP, it's so much worse with cars because we have a car-centric society. You NEED a car in this place to have a normal life. Our cities and transportation have been intentionally designed to fuck over everyone not in a car.
So there is inelastic demand. The manufacturers can do whatever the fuck they want and get away with it.
You've succinctly articulated something I've been struggling to for a long time.
And then you follow up with this banger:
I hate it so much, but what can those of us that actually care do other than try to educate people?
Sadly, people are not rational, and will buy the new car because it makes them feel good. They'll give them a year of free features and people will forget all about it because it's a free year and "a $5,000 value!"
I've only ever bought one new car, and that got dieselgated. I will never buy a new car again, and you won't, but there's not enough of us to stop this from happening.
"You will own nothing and be happy."
What is diesel gated?
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15339250/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-vw-diesel-emissions-scandal/
I got an 03 Jetta in good trim with a 5-speed (which hardly anyone makes anymore). I’m gonna keep that fucker alive even if I have to turn it into the car of Theseus.
I have a Samurai of Theseus.
But, My wife drives a 2017 Mirage G4 with a 5 speed, and we are going to keep that thing alive however we can. And it's fairly easy, because the Mirage is very simple and is made to be easy to repair.
I will probably continue to buy new cars as I can spend my hard earned on whatever I want. Everyone’s financial situation, wants and needs are different… you shouldn’t bundle everyone else into your opinion.
That said, I wouldn’t buy a car that has a feature that I need locked behind a subscription.. I would just buy one that suits. I am not loyal to any particular brand so I don’t care.
Where will all the used cars come from?
A better solution is to counter market these products. Invest time in spreading content that tells other people how shit these products are. Not buying it doesn't do much. But spreading the good word does. Its why they pay so much to advertise and market
The only reason I see is for increased safety ratings, but sadans will never win with the trucks people drive around in now :(
So no ford, bmw, merc, tesla and who else so far?
"Corp execs literally don't care about your bitching, and will perfectly coordinate with other companies corp execs to make sure the same blanket policy is pushed and agreed upon by everyone else in the industry, thus making it the new standard and leaving the customer with no choice against it, for the 69 millionth time"
Just a reminder, such collusion is supposed to be illegal.
But we don't pay attention to those laws anymore.
The people who made those laws don't care nor enforce them because they're on the payrolls of the people breaking them. Were so fucked as a country.
"Congress reports that they don't see the issue, one congressman said 'lol I don't see what the big deal is, the market will regulate itself and just don't buy a car lmao' "
Don't blame me, I bought a KodosMobile!
Nice!
Good thing new cars are now out of the price range of most people. Credit is not as cheep and easy. All it would take is one place to start making cheep cars in a shed for the whole racket to collapse. And if you look at the history of consumer markets this happens often, even with the collusion and crime.
EVs actually seem to make this more inevitable to me. Most people aren't capable of building a combustion engine and transmission, but EVs are fundamentally easier from the engineering side. There are complications with the batteries but the overall thing is a lot simpler. I think that's why there are already lots of Chinese EVs available for like half the price of anything here.
Yes and no, the materials to make EVs go are much harder to source. I think ICE engines are at this point nearly impossible to stop people from getting their hands on. I think I could source the parts to make a shitty ICE car/truck/thing but the batteries for an EV that has any chance could be hard. I think it does not really matter what the type of vehicle takes the market, it matters more that the current model loses viability as the consumer base can no longer afford or borrow for the modern car/truck/other.
If you can no longer get a 7 year loan for a 100k plastic monster, you have to get something else. Since there is almost nothing else new, you have to buy used (we are roughly here). Once the used market is hot enough that used cars are worth more then new ones (Think of a lada in hand being worth 2 on order) someone will disrupt that market just out of greed. Once you have another option for a cheap car/truck/thing you will see (or seen as this has happened) lobbyists push to have laws put in place to stop the upstart (CAFE, Chicken tax, motorcycle cc limits etc.). But now you don't have so much a reluctant market but an impossible one, people will literally be unable to support the old system. At this point something has to give, ether the government protections have to go, the old companies are forced to change, or the increasing the ability of the consumer to spend more (ether though subsidies or cheap loans). I think the overall economic situation means the cheap loans are out for now, subsides are rarely popular for luxury items (the current model has forced vehicles into this category), the governments are not so stable around the world making upholding unpopular laws less feasible, and lastly the old companies are at the end of the day going to pick profit even if it means change.
You could probably just go buy some LiFePO solar kit batteries from Amazon to power your homemade electric car. They are expensive but readily available right now. They have been getting cheaper in the last year though. A 12v 100Ah one can be as cheap as $200 ...
If you took about 30-40 of those 100Ah solar batteries and wired them in series, you could make the 350-400 volts that powers a Tesla and have a comparable but not as good range. 35 of them could be about $7000 to purchase at Amazon prices.
That's possibly not even feasible with the logistics of that many batteries, but that's an example of what's available on the consumer market and comparable to what Tesla is using to make their Model 3's power. I think it's something that could be achieved by a hobbyist with a good understanding of the electronics technology and access to a good workshop. In fact I've seen it done on TV when Anthony Keidis had an old muscle car converted to electric, well over a decade ago.
I ment as a car to sell. I could not start a company in a shed to sell a cheap car using amazon batteries at the moment. Also if you look at the work to put those batteries together (aging wheels does a good job showing the effort) it kinda makes small ev production hard. Its not impossible and I would jump on a cheap dumb ev but since you can buy ice engines with a gas tank for less its still the more likely cheap option.
What is really happening is your car has hardware features that are being disabled, and you have to pay extortion money for the criminals to not disable them. It's ransomware as a service.
So the question is, who wants to buy from a company that is running ransomware as a service?
The question is, what alternative are we going to have, if all auto makers start doing this?
I just want a vehicle made like they used to be made. No computer chips and physical handles I have to turn to get the window down. An entire vehicle I can fix myself when things break down.
It shouldn't be a hard ask, but here we are... Overly complex shit, with many features no one needs.
No computer at all? Gonna have to track down something with a carburetor and hope it still runs. The newest you're gonna find is a 1991 Oldsmobile.
It's a wish, not a "where can I find it" thing.
It would be nice if the option was made available.
Not a car, but you can buy a new Suzuki DR650 that has a carburetor. At least in 2023.
You know the war that's being fought by developers against YouTube?
Now imagine that same energy directed towards car companies.
I guarantee you the moment this becomes a thing, there will be jailbreaking and a whole industry dedicated to making sure people know how to get all the benefits that their car has installed but not enabled.
Because if buying isn't owning, then pirating isn't stealing.
Buy base model ones that don't have all that shit anyway and install aftermarket?
*You wouldn't download heated seats would you? *
I definitely would.
We need Autoworker Unions to refuse this shit with us.
Why would they do that? This thing aligns with their interests (more money in the industry)
Remind me how subscription services translate to more manufacturing jobs.
Hell, half the point of the strike was that the corpos were keeping too much and not giving out raises
If every car has a seat warmer then you have to manufacture more seat warmers. Supposedly that implies in more work. But I'm sure the companies will find a way around it.
If every car has it you only need to make one kind of seat and you only need one assembly line to install that type of seat. That's less jobs overall.
Note to self: Buy older cars without the subscription bullshit.
They're going to write laws making older cars illegal to operate in the name of climate change. Places are already requiring the phase out of new gas and diesel vehicles with the stated ambition of completely switching.
Maybe not outright outlaw, but they will be taxed out of existence. Effectively you will have the choice of paying 10k in pollution taxes or 5k for the functional brake pedal subscription, and this shit will become norm.
That's possible but right now they're pretty serious about banning ICE cars in certain states by 2050 or so.
So it lowers the cost of the car right? Right?
Nuh nuh nuh nuh ;)
The author addressed that.
What did he say?
He said "Read my article" 😁
"Officer, I signaled to switch lanes but I forgot to update my card on file so the blinkers won't turn on. I was on my way to get a prepaid card for the blinkers and to open the trunk so I can get my groceries out."
No BMW owner would willing use indicators anyway.
BMW Subscriber* now 🤷♂️
"Oh no, we can't compete with Chinese manufacturers! Surely if we squeeze the customers just a little bit harder..."
Car toys is just gonna take in the bucks. These car manufacturers are thinking they can charge a subscription fee when car toys will plug in a little doohickey they just makes your heated seats work.
Cartoys will get a dcma notice and be sued into closing.
They only exist because paid features is still rare. Once real money is on the line, they'll be sued or even jailed like the gaming modchip developers.
I doubt that. If they can put an aftermarket car alarm, remote start, or radio in your car they can put a different module in to enable heated seats. Car manufacturers really do think they're gonna stop this from happening but in reality we already have this for a bunch of car related accessories.
They will encrypt the heaters' connection to the car. Breaking encryption is a dcma violation. Aftermarket can replace the entire seat but that's very expensive.
Tesla already does this.
https://insideevs.com/news/680181/hackers-jailbreak-tesla-model-3-unlock-free-heated-rear-seats/
If anyone sells what the researchers figured out, they can be sued and jailed just like modchip developers have been.
And I bet I could wire the heated seats to work without even needing to take a Tesla to car toys. Heated seat circuits aren't that complicated. It's a heating element mat, maybe a motor and fan if you have cooled seats as well. You don't need software. You need a toggle switch and a thermistor.
Also reverse engineering for the purpose of interoperability is protected by the DMCA.
You could bypass and put your own hardwired switch in. But it wouldn't be integrated into the car's gui.
"to the extent any such acts of identification and analysis do not constitute infringement under this title."
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1201#
Modchips makers were sued and jailed. Interoperability didn't apply because they violated the "no commercial use" part of the title.
I never claimed it would be. Car toys will absolutely do what they have always done to get around car makers and provide customers with the modifications they want. That is not even a question.
Modchips are an incredibly niche product and therefore much easier to target and shutdown, millions and millions of people will seek out how to break the law to get free heated seats if subscription services become widespread
Modchips went under the radar for years. It wasn't until they became popular (modchips company making millions in profit) that the developers were sued.
Like car mods right now, as long as it's a few, it isn't worth the hassle because there is no money to take from them. If it becomes big and Cartoys starts selling lots of mod chips that break encryption, they will be sued and possibly jailed.
Heated seats use a heating element which just needs power and ground. They can't encrypt that.
Yes you can run your own wire and glue a switch to the console. But it won't work in the car's ui. And I bet everything over 5v for USB is off a computer controlled relay. So you'd have to patch into the high voltage battery and do your own dc to dc conversion.
Which would be really easy. Who cares about the UI?
If it was easy and cheap, everyone would be doing it for all their controls instead of complaining about Tesla's touch screen.
Just because you can't do it doesn't mean it isn't easy.
I didn't say I couldn't do it. I implied it would be expensive to do it commercially. Home users who do it as a hobby so their hourly rate doesn't matter can do it legally anyway.
The only backlash they listen to is the one to their wallets. Remember Netflix password crackdown backlash?
The backlash where Netflix's profit went up and it was generally a success and Netflix didn't change anything at all...?
Or was there another one I missed? Or am I confused?
That's exactly my point. All this 'widespread backlash' doesn't amount to anything unless it hurts their bottom line. There was a huge backlash when netflix introduced password sharing crackdown, but it ended up a success for them.
Oh, I didn't get what you meant I guess because people kept saying they were cancelling their accounts, I didn't think of it as a non-action backlash.
There, of course, weren't really that many people upset or cancelling
It felt like there were a lot of us who cancelled, but clearly not enough
How do you know that? Who told you? Remember it pays to lie.
I cancelled. 👍
Great, but what I was pointing out is we were told that it had very little effect by Netflix themselves.
Oh yeah, let's see what happens when Netflix is $50 a month 👍
Sounds like we need to get the ELF and the RTR folks on a conference call.
As much as I hate what it will do to the used car market we as a people need to stop buying these new cars. Like actually make it a shameful act to even be in one of these distopian devices. People love to bully and be outraged, why not point it to something like this that can be agreed on and is not hard to fix?
People want the newest shiniest thing. Cars are no longer tools, but status symbols. And people absolutely will not give up status.
Yeah, that is why shame works so well here. Status does not work to sell if is the status is negative.
Climate conference or whatever, has nothing to say about car makers actively hindering adoption of modern engines/EV?
And this shit is why I’ll never own a Tesla — or any other make that pulls this stunt.
Elon single handedly told me I shouldn't buy a Tesla
Just remember to not pay for the subscription and they will eventually stop this particular nonsense.
Again, I mean good luck with that I suppose. They do this and it will just accelerate the market to jailbreak cars.
Enough with the subscriptions!
They won't stop until the air you breathe is a subscription service.
https://2000ad.fandom.com/wiki/Oxygen_Board
https://ia802502.us.archive.org/16/items/2000-ad-prog-0060_20220324/ad78a/2000AD%20Prog%200057.pdf
LOL
If this becomes common enough there's gonna be a whole cottage industry of jailbreaking cars.
Yep. Until the find a way to remotely brick your vehicle like how John Deere does to its farm equipment if you hack the software. Or Microsoft bricking your PC if you don't have Genuine Windows installed.
And this is why capitalist markets don't really regulate themselves and need government intervention.
Because the handful of of companies that buy up all their competitors will just do whatever makes the most money together and consumers have no alternatives.
Bought a car with a future subscription to its remote services (climate, lock/unlock, etc). Company wants $450/year for access. Guess what we aren’t going to sign up for when the free 2 year period expires?
Vote with the wallets folks.
you bought the new car you literally failed the mission
walk dude
You beat me by 7 seconds.
This was my first thought. "sure showed them by buying that car..."
Yeah "2 years free" no it's not it was factored into the price they charged you for the vehicle.
With a large family there weren’t many options. This was the best option.
Honest question -- why not get a used vehicle that didn't have that nonsense in it?
Because used was as much as new monthly. The market is upside down and down right stupid.
Fair enough. Thanks for answering.
But wait, what features are actually behind the subscription wall? Your other comment mentions the climate system and… door locking? You can’t be serious…
Systems monitoring and I wouldn’t call it remote start because it’s a PHEV but they do. And yes, I’m serious. It’s a ridiculously overpriced service. Thank god they didn’t lock down the heated seats.
WHOOOSH. Seriously dude you're just preaching the ideal while making exceptions for yourself.
Same exact shit as 'my abortion is the only moral abortion', NIMBY, "I'm not a bad driver I just had the sun in my eyes/they came out of nowhere!"
It's fine and human nature to make exceptions for ourselves. But it's important to try to catch yourself, if so at the very least you don't look like an asshole on the internet.
I get it. What I’m saying is that they’re all doing this. You have to pick the least bad option.
Update I wouldn’t have even bothered replying if I had seen the god awful reply you added.
But that's not what you said. You preach vote with your wallet and that there weren't many options.
And is pre owned not an option? I get it we aren't all able to be perfect but it's wild to be so hypocritical in one conversation.
There’s a big difference between what this article is describing and what you’re describing. Remote features likeones you’re complaining about require a cellular service and while $450/year is very expensive, providing them for free would be silly.
The article is describing built-in features with no connectivity requirements, which is like disabling your heated seats unless you subscribe. This is what is described as rent-seeking behavior and it’s very different from overcharging for operational costs.
That’s fair.
I just bought a cellular plan for my car: $99/yr, including streaming video and audio. That seems fair to me, given the cost of adding a tablet or something to my phone bill. You paying 4.5 times is surely a ripoff
Same thing for me with 5g hotspot in my new car. They said "hey that's free for 6 months, along with enhanced onstar", and I replied keep it, I don't fucking want it.
They looked at me like I was growing a second head. They said they didn't know how to deactivate it, as nobody had asked that before. My ass. They knew better than to ask for a credit card number to activate the service, at least.
🎶 It's a bad idea, and they're all about it 🎶
Only the stupid rich people who are complete fucking idiots are gonna spend money on this. That and people irresponsible with money who are also complete morons. Anyone with a sense of financial responsibility will absolutely not buy these shitty anti consumer cars
Sadly that's enough people to turn a profit so the rest doesn't really have a choice. It's either a fully enshitificated car, or no car.
I will build one or fucking walk
Sure, and like with everything else the free market is controlled mostly by broke morons and rich assholes. So it'll happen anyways because those two groups will fall for it, believing they're entitled to nice things.
And what happens when you don't have other options in the market?
I'll keep driving my old car that has no wireless connectivity.
I could also buy an old 1969 Ford Galaxie and have it fitted with an electric motor and a trunk full of batteries to build my own electric car. We can do that with any old car actually.
I worked in design for a major global automaker, I designed and prototyped various user experiences around enabling/disabling features on demand, and paying a subscription. This was 7-8 years ago, and the context was developing countries and what we called "emerging markets" where people just bought bare bones base model vehicles, but there were always 1 or 2 highly desirable features they needed but could only get in a high spec model - they couldn't afford.
The idea tested very well, they could buy their cheap vehicle and then enable just the things they really need. And they would pay for that. I still think this is a valid and good use case for subscribing, in these markets and for these people.
Somewhere between then and today, sales and marketing entered the chat, and I know because I fought them tooth and nail. What I designed morphed into subscribing to everything for everyone. I don't work there any more and that's part of why.
If the product is already on the car it is scummy as fuck to charge a subscription, the end. The higher price of high end vehicles is justified by the cost of adding those features to the vehicle. If they're already there and off, you're getting ripped off
That doesn't solve the issue at all, the feature is there, it just isn't enabled, extremely scummy. If it was a modular design where you payed a one time fee for whatever you needed it would be less bad, not a damn subscription.