Ultraviolet light can kill almost all the viruses in a room. Why isn’t it everywhere?

L4sBot@lemmy.worldmod to Technology@lemmy.world – 277 points – Ultraviolet light can kill almost all the viruses in a room. Why isn’t it everywhere?
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Ultraviolet light can kill almost all the viruses in a room. Why isn’t it everywhere?::Can special lightbulbs end the next pandemic before it starts?

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Because the spectrum required (UV-C) to do so is harmful to humans and the environment. Putting it EVERYWHERE would cause all kinds of problems.

The article blathers on for page after page after page talking about technology is back in the '60s and '70s, an experimental technology using UV wavelengths that supposedly don't bother humans. And systems that only point up in a room like the UV light isn't going to get reflected into your eyeballs. I get the feeling the author doesn't have much of a background and was really just trying to stitch a bunch of research together without really understanding most of it.

You can safely blast the shit out of central air ducts, but it doesn't do anything for infected breathing viruses into the air sitting next to you or the people that touched the bathroom door handle.

I suspect if we see any real non biased studies come out of any of this equipment the difference will be close to within the error bar.

You're assuming it's not more "AI" nonsense though.

I remember back in my childhood reading all kinds of stuff about vampires, aliens and what not in articles starting pretty seriously found through search engines. So the skills to resist human or machine text generators are there, everybody had to develop those.

It's just that the new (after 2005 or so) majority in the Web considered those skills and many others irrelevant and useless, just like the people and the culture associated with them.

It took a new kind of the same threat to make them take it seriously.

And it was in some way amazing to read something weird created by a human brain. Just like music, it has some kind of "movement", "direction", "structure". "AI"-generated things in comparison to those old texts are like Ludovico Einaudi, no offense to that guy, compared to Vaughan-Williams.

This is the most informed comment in the thread where it's clear you actually read the damn article.

Some of this does appear to be due to a widespread misunderstanding about how droplets spread disease in the medical field. It was thought that UV light far enough away to be safe would also be too far away to be effective. At least, not without additional ventilation, but ventilation itself would help reduce the spread, and we don't do that because it's expensive. UV would be cheap.

Research conducted during Covid corrected this scientific misunderstanding, and UV may be effective without additional ventilation. Ozone effects still need to be studied, though, as well as overall effectiveness. It might be that the additional ozone causes a few hundred additional deaths, but with the tradeoff of thousands or even millions fewer respiratory disease deaths. That would be a worthwhile tradeoff, but we don't know what those numbers look like.

The article itself mentions solutions to the issue of it being harmful to humans, either by putting it at a distance in the ceiling or just running air ventilation through it, or choosing a specific spectrum that apparently doesn't seem to be harmful due to being blocked by the dead cell layer of one's skin. The environmental issue though also gets talked about, and is suggested to be more the problem.

Just yesterday, I was defending Lemmy users by saying that they actually do read the article, but here we are.

The article talks about this specifically. Far-UV (222nm) doesn't penetrate skin or eyes and is harmless to humans. The usual UV-C used for disinfection is 254nm and is quite dangerous.

Will there be any benefit to say putting it in the air duct? Like on a forced air system the main exhaust from the unit (I'm guessing it's exhaust but that sounds wrong). I know some air filters are supposed to filter out airborne viruses and whatnot but I have no way of testing that. But I know what ultraviolet will do. And I'd have to assume sitting in the metal ductwork wouldn't really hurt anything.

This article is a longer version of “bleach kills it fast - what if that could be brought inside the body somehow?”

"X can kill gems! Why don't we use X everywhere?"

X: Thing that can kill humans too. And/or cause cancer.

See also:

  • Fire

  • chlorine gas

  • dehydration

  • Boiling water

  • Radiation

Just use sarine FFS, that'll teach them little invisible bastards

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"Hydroflouric Acid can kill almost all viruses in a bowl. Why aren't we eating it?"

And a handgun can kill all viruses in a Petri dish

Because it's great at killing things, including human skin. Seriously, my local gym has people practically sign their life away before letting them into a UV-A/B tanning booth. No way are you putting the even worse UV-C bulbs out in public. That's how people got their retinas fried at a crypto conference in Hong Kong last year.

People think I'm nuts when I wear sunglasses on cloudy days, but my eyes hurt. Idk why they don't hurt the same way sunny days, probably I don't squint when it's not so sunny.

Probably the scattering effect of the clouds. Instead of light coming from one direction, which you can angle away from to reduce intensity, the diffused light from the clouds is bouncing every which way. Which while making the intensity less, instead keeps it constant no matter where you face. I often wear sunglasses while driving on cloudy days for similar reasons.

Basically, looking at direct sunlight will obviously be more damaging, but diffused light doesn't give you a break.

This thread might be the worst example of "I didn't read the article, but I'll comment anyway" that I've seen.

Yeah but ducks shouldn’t do that!!!!

(I didn’t even read the headline)

Right but they rape anything and have corkscrew dicks

(What were we talking about?)

Just milk please, no sugar.

( I didn’t even read your comment I just responded)

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UV light is both: A. Damaging to eyesight. B. Invisible.

You won't know how much damage you're doing to yourself until the damage has been done. This is how you give mass amounts of people eye trauma, and potentially blindness.

We use uv light stands in the hospital. We will shut down a room and run a uv sanitizer for a bit. It works in some instances but it's not exactly something you can just leave running all the time. Everyone would probably have a sick tan tho.. To go with their skin cancer..

Those are 254nm. Far-UV is 222nm, which doesn't penetrate or damage skin or the eyes and seems to be completely safe to humans. The main issue is that it can generate ozone, but how significant that is is currently unknown.

Ozone is also used to disinfect, that's double the disinfection power!!!

Pretty counterintuitive that in order to make UV less dangerous for humans, you can make it more ionizing. Anyway, I'd expect problems with degradation/yellowing of plastics, bleaching of everything in range, and massive issues with indoor ozone and some other forms of air pollution

I'm a little confused about the ozone because I know multiple people that have literal ozone makers in their home.

Because people are morons who will snort straight asbestos because some quack said it is healthy for them.

Ozone is super unstable and will oxidize most organic compounds. It's great in the upper atmosphere where it absorbs deadly UV rays, but it is super dangerous to be inhaling regularly.

Right, but only a little bit in occupied spaces is safe. Takes a lot to oxidize stable compounds.

It forms radicals which will self perpetuate. A machine constantly putting out even small quantities of ozone is going to fuck you up sooner rather than later.

Can you elaborate a little more? I used to have an ozone generator but, and it's been a long time, it seemed that at useful levels it would be dangerous but what are "small quantities"? I have however found them useful to be used at high power for a short time to clear a car or house of smoke of pet odor (unoccupied of course).

I use the pool ones to keep water tanks sterile with an ORP meter for control and that seems to work well but it is extremely corrosive. It breaks down really fast though so I don't think it's causing any harm... Is it?

The EPA is pretty adamant that there are no health benefits to ozone machines, and plenty of potential drawbacks. . Ozone breaks down fast because it is highly volatile and is just ask likely to react with tissues in your lungs as whatever you want to clean out of the air.

Thanks for reply but yeah we are in agreement. That's why I quit using it like 2 decades ago. If it can destroy organic matter that obviously includes ours.

I was just curious on the quantity thing. A general air blown ozone generator will not hurt if at low power. It obviously won't provide any benefits either. But for water it's useful so was curious if you knew something i didn't.

On topic - a powerful UV lamp (not something you'd want to hit your eyes) in your central AC is still very useful. Airborne stuff, mold spores, etc. at a minimum it keeps the coils clean.

I run the ozone machine for a half hour or an hour here and there, when nobody is around, and in spaces that are well ventilated afterward. What sort of radicals?

Radicals are atoms with a missing electron. Since most chemical reactions use pairs of electrons. Free radicals are atoms, typically oxygen, that have this missing electron. They are super reactive and will steal an electron from the first atom or molecule they can. That atom/molecule then goes and repeats the process, creating a chain of radicals that can mess up your tissues. Typically our body uses anti-oxidants to halt radical chains, but it is very intense and can only be done so much. That ozone machine has no benefits and loads of potential drawbacks.

So then it's perfect in homes where we are using bulbs that output deadly UV rays!

Imagine writing this headline in a universe where daylight exists rofl.

It's not as if every part of your house has exposure to direct sunlight. They aren't made for use in houses, though. Think more like hospital rooms or classrooms on a cycle when nobody is around.

There are UV light robots at my hospital that drive into rooms and blast it with high power UVB for 15 minutes or so to help disinfect.

Because it is very dangerous and people will absolutely let their toddler play next to the lamp. This is why it's basically only used in places like hospitals where access can be controlled.

In the US maybe, elsewhere it's common and accessible. Here in China it's commonplace in home water filters and air purifiers for instance. I can also buy endless UV-C LED strips and do with it whatever I please.

Did anyone actually read the article? The only guy whose question wasn't already answered by the article was the one about yellowed plastics, lol.

Oof, ultraviolet light. This makes me flashback to April 2020, shortly after the U.S. shutdown for the Coronavirus pandemic.

If you have 1:57 minutes of free time, watch this video of former President Donald Trump addressing the nation on the response to the novel coronavirus.

Warning: If you experience second-hand embarassment, try not to watch Dr. Birx in the background squirm in her seat as she sits through the idiot rambling of the orange man. Immediately after this press conference, corporations and media companies pushed out critical warnings to Americans to not drink or inject disinfectants like bleach.

"I would like [Dr. Birx] to speak to the medical doctors. to see if there is any way that you can apply light and heat to cure [covid-19]? You know? If you could? And maybe you can, maybe you can't? Again, I say maybe you can, maybe you can't?"

"I'm not a doctor, but I'm like a person who has a good..."

Gestures vaguely at his head

"... you know what." ~ Former President Donald Trump

This video always has the beginning chopped off and misses the KEY thing about the whole fiasco. It was even dumber than you think.

Trump is walking to the podium and stops to examine a CDC infographic on an easel. An infographic about ways to sterilize surfaces.

All the bullshit Trump is spewing came from 5-seconds of reading that poster.

Bleach kills AIDS, doesn't mean you can inject it into your bloodstream and be okay.

Supposing you brought the light into the body?! Are you going to test it?

They say the eyes are the windows to the soul, it would have to go in through there.

Because it burns you. That's the answer. It kills your skin cells and eyes the same way it kills the bacteria. Also, it is everywhere, it's fucking outside. The sun. Fucking stupid. Idiots.

Know what else kills bacteria? Bleach. So get chugging.

So stupid.

Um, I'm going to copy a comment I made elsewhere:

Dude, read the article. The whole point is it uses shorter wavelengths so it doesn't penetrate your skin or cornea.

Unlike me with your mom.

At this point, it’s clear that in small-scale settings, far-UV can kill the vast majority of pathogens present, which in turn would vastly reduce the risk of respiratory disease spread. It seems safe for human skin, and likely safe for human eyes, too.

Luckily we are more thick skinned than a bacteria, who would have thought?

Imagine not reading the article and having this much confidence in your terrible response.

Jeez, every response in here is about it burning your eyes. Thing is, people aren't in every room all the time. Have it set to a sensor, same as the lights, and you can quickly sanitize large spaces that are unoccupied. Elevators, airplanes, etc can be sanitized the second they're empty. My FIL is a retired GE engineer working on this technology.

Have it set to a sensor, same as the lights

Given how often the lights go out at work while I’m taking a dump, this isn’t the best idea.

It's definitely easier to tell if something is in a room than it is to tell if nothing is in a room. And sensors still fail at that. Timers would probably be better, since you don't need disinfection every time a room is used.

If you know the office building will be empty every day at 2AM have the lights do their work between 2-3 every morning.

Sounds dangerous

I have lights go out on me all the time at the office, just sitting mildly still. What happens if someone falls asleep in the room? Or worse a kid? Severe sunburn and possible blindness

Or what if they're black? I've read so many stories about sensors not detecting people simply because they have darker skin.

I've been in a restroom and had the lights turn off on me because a sensor didn't detect someone was still I the room. I'd bet good money I'm not the only one. Sensors, presently, are either invasive or inaccurate. Or both.

Ever noticed how stuff left out in the sun gets bleached out and doesn't last very long? Imagine leaving your carpet and all your furniture out in the sun. UV light is very hard on stuff.

The light can be tucked away into the HVAC. The light never needs to hit anyone. You got central heating/cooling? One light, whole building. It's almost criminal this isn't common.

I worked for a company that made a UVC light system for sterilization. The amount of safety you have to build in so people wont nuke themselves makes them hard to use.Also, the bulbs we used were delicate and had issues constantly.

Do you want Ultraviolet resistant viruses?

This thing kills all living things so why don't we bathe ourselves in it?

Is UV light the best thing since fermenting alcohol?

This is the dumbest shit. It kills all kinds of stuff, not just bad viruses. Homes are covered in bacteria which you've adapted to and are helpful. Kind of like gut bacteria, but outside your body. Killing all of them isn't a good idea.

An actually halfway decent idea might be adding a strong UV light inside the washing machine or dryer to kill germs. Modern eco methords with 30-40 C° just dont kill the germs effectively. You'd need to wash your clothes at last at 60C° which most clothes (especially sports wear) cant handle anymore. Or just dry them on the outside where we also have a Strong UV source aka. The sun.

The bulbs don't last very long last time I looked into this for home use

UV light kills almost all viruses because it's ionizing EM radiation. So it also fucks humans up, xd. I mean just stay on sunlight naked for a day. Your body will be so happy. All the mutations from ionizing radiation would be great.

But yeah we life in a society where ppl is scared of Radiofrequency EM waves (non-ionizing), "dangerous cell phone towers, wifi dangerous". That same people recomends staying long periods of time with direct sunlight contact without protection (yeah we need protection because sunlight spectrum has UV and higher freq ionizing radiation).

Sunlight healthy/radio waves dangerous, that is the most stupid statement ever.

Sunlight is beneficial in small dosis because of how we syntetise vitamins (as little as i know). But remeber if you are scared of microwaves, remeber that sunlight has much more higher freq(higher energy) waves.

I always thought these were pretty cool. I'm not sure how HEV compares to UV though, or if it even works

Not necessarily agreeing with the article posted, but for all the people who clearly didn't read the article:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-08462-z

That's just one paper I found searching for far-UV. Seems to be many more.

Again not saying it's 100 % safe or anything, but it looks promising.

In Macau, they have little trash garages which are flooded with UV at night

We installed one in the kitchen cabinet trash and recycling "drawer bins," as well as behind the stove and fridge. It smells of ozone, but there are no bugs or trash smells

You're generating ozone in your house. You might be okay if you have a good furnace filter?

That’s how you get UV resistant strains of all kinds of microbes

I could see UV light also causing plastics to oxidize and become brittle much faster, because they might not be made for that kind of exposure. So using UV light might mean having to replace a lot of plastic things too.

Exactly, yes! Pretty much everything when left out in direct sunlight eventually fades or breaks down. There's a reason why UV light kills germs, it damages what is touches.

The issue with stuff that kills everything is that... Well it kills everything.

At this point, it’s clear that in small-scale settings, far-UV can kill the vast majority of pathogens present, which in turn would vastly reduce the risk of respiratory disease spread. It seems safe for human skin, and likely safe for human eyes, too.

Luckily we are more thick skinned than a bacteria, who would have thought?

This is the best summary I could come up with:

Ultraviolet retained a small coterie of enthusiasts over the ensuing decades, focused narrowly on preventing transmission of tuberculosis — which has no reliably effective vaccine for adults — in its remaining hotbeds, like homeless shelters.

The biggest test it received, the Tuberculosis Ultraviolet Shelter Study of 1997-2004, demonstrated that “upper room” UV, in which UV-emitting lamps are placed at least 6.9 feet above the floor where they can disinfect air without harming humans, was safe.

It wasn’t — detective work from scholars including Linsey Marr, Jose-Luis Jimenez, and Katherine Randall in the middle of the pandemic determined that this conclusion was based on a misinterpretation of the Wellses’ research that had somehow persisted for decades in the medical profession.

“This is the most difficult talk I’ve had to give in my career,” Jose-Luis Jimenez, a distinguished professor of chemistry at the University of Colorado, told the audience at the first International Congress on Far-UVC Science and Technology this past June.

But 2020 was also an unusually brutal year for airborne disease: 49,783 Americans died from influenza in 2019, for instance (and none from Covid); 1 percent of that number is about 500 people, which starts to feel comparable to the air pollution cost Jimenez identifies.

Jimenez favors using UV in very high-risk locations, such as hospitals, but worries that construction companies, schools, malls, and the like will seize on the potential of far-UV as an excuse not to invest in proper ventilation and filtration, leaving us with the ugly trade-off he identifies.

The original article contains 4,104 words, the summary contains 252 words. Saved 94%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!

You really dont want to live in a sterile environment, you actually need some stimulation to your immune and other bodily systems. Most body stuff is like muscles including the immune system - when you regularly over load and stress them, thats the impulse to stimulate growth and evolving.

Because my curtains are closed

Why not inject UV as a cure for all virus infections!

This way it wont reach our eyes or skin so no problems!