‘God gave us Trump’: Christian media evangelicals preach a messianic message

MicroWave@lemmy.world to News@lemmy.world – 394 points –
‘God gave us Trump’: Christian media evangelicals preach a messianic message
independent.co.uk

Last month Trump vowed to defend Christianity and urged Christians to vote for him

“This is really a battle between good and evil,” evangelical TV preacher Hank Kunneman says of the slew of criminal charges facing Donald Trump. “There’s something on President Trump that the enemy fears: It’s called the anointing.” 

The Nebraska pastor, who was speaking on cable news show “FlashPoint” last summer, is among several voices in Christian media pressing a message of Biblical proportions: The 2024 presidential race is a fight for America’s soul, and a persecuted Trump has God’s protection.

“They’re just trying to bankrupt him. They’re trying to take everything he’s got. They’re trying to put him in prison,” author, media personality and self-proclaimed prophet Lance Wallnau said in October on “The Jim Bakker Show”, an hour-long daily broadcast that focuses on news and revelations about the end times that it says we are living in.

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Doesn't say much good about a person's god if Donald Trump is their envoy. Of all the people god could send, they chose him... 😏

May all pussies--man, woman, and every gender--be fortunate enough to experience the grab of his glorious, tiny, and orange hand.

Amen.

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If I believed that an antichrist could exist, I would be convinced it was Donald Trump. He is the opposite of what Christianity teaches yet somehow he's become their Messiah.

In that warped eschatology subculture, a common belief is that the antichrist will be raised in the church and come to power by deceiving the church into thinking he's a prophet or messianic figure. Basically any authoritarian they choose to follow is the perfect figure to fit their beliefs. With Trump, for instance, they can point to "Christian" actions like blind support for Israel as the representatives of the original "chosen people" or his role in anti-choice enforcement or any us-vs-them conflict action that makes them feel like they are the current chosen people. Then if he turns out to be just another bad person who deceived them, they'll mark it off as a fluke, immediately forget all the evil they helped him do, and look for the next antichrist candidate.

Evangelicalism is a very sinister belief system. They literally want the rapture/tribulation to come about as soon as possible, preferably in their lifetime. They don't actually care about any of the people they think are non-chosen. I would say the Calvinists/Reformed Protestants are even worse, because they believe the verses about some people being ordained before birth to be "elected" by God to be saved without any say of their own, and the vast majority of people are also predestined for eternal destruction (https://www.learnreligions.com/five-point-calvinism-700356).

And they all vote.

Hilarious to me that trump checks nearly every box for the literal antichrist, and the Christian’s love him.

Dude if Jesus appeared tomorrow the Republicans would line up to burn him. They don’t have real beliefs, just symbols.

While I think they would nail him to a cross, without noticing the irony, rather than burn him, you're not wrong. Jesus is too woke for them.

Moore told NPR in an interview released Tuesday that multiple pastors had told him they would quote the Sermon on the Mount, specifically the part that says to “turn the other cheek,” when preaching. Someone would come up after the service and ask, “Where did you get those liberal talking points?”

“What was alarming to me is that in most of these scenarios, when the pastor would say, ‘I’m literally quoting Jesus Christ,’ the response would not be, ‘I apologize.’ The response would be, ‘Yes, but that doesn’t work anymore. That’s weak,’” Moore said. “When we get to the point where the teachings of Jesus himself are seen as subversive to us, then we’re in a crisis.”

I was thinking of this exact thing when commenting! And now we learn that Trump was put here by God for reasons.

That's makes sense actually, anitchrist means the End Times^TM are here. Christians see that as a good thing

But isn’t getting deceived by him supposed to get you an express ticket to hell?

You’d think they’d be a little more cautious

Given the figure that most closely matches the projected boogeyman in something like 2 Thess 2 was Paul himself, they've been deceived for nearly two millennia now.

At this point, gravitating to a narcissist grifter is just par for the course.

Funnier yet that Jesus explictly warned against false profits like Trump.

Matthew 7:15-20

It's an interesting passage and possibly in the M source. Unless of course you were talking about the Mark passage.

His name is 669 when put into Aramaic and that old Middle East way of counting is applied to the letters?

Teasing. I take your meaning.

So the best God could give you all is a narcissistic, socipathic manchild with a spray tan...? That's a big yikes. These people are delusional.

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My goodness are these people really this deluded?

Isn't donny dump like the exact personification of all the christian sins?

Greed(obviously)

sloth/gluttony (fatass loves Mc D's also obvious)

pride(uh, he's the best at everything according to him?)

Envy probably

Lust obviously

Wrath. I dunno, anger?

They're dumb bro. Or they're evil. Or both

"Biden made grocery more expensive!"

Looks at multibillion dollar corps bribing congress

"I see nothing wrong here"

The book of Daniel lays out what the anti-christ will do and how he will behave. It describes Trump perfectly.

Evangelicals want the world to end so they can be raptured. To them, Trump is a gift from God.

Ehhh, the issue is that's not really well-enforced, and the churches know that. They know that as long as they aren't OUTRIGHT telling people "go down to the polls and vote for Trump", but instead couching it in semi-religious language, they're pretty safe from anyone poking at them for this - the IRS is extremely gun-shy about trying to nab anyone on this anymore.

How are some people so ignorant to all the terrible things he's done? No one ever fact checks on anything and it's seriously depressing

Remember this is not a failure of conclusions (Trump is sent by god), but a failure of proceedings (belief and faith is superior to facts and reality).

They lack the critical thinking skills to even begin to digest and elaborate an argument that relies of evidence and principled thinking. They don't evaluate reality on principles, they evaluate reality on emotion, identity and authority above all else. Therefore, fact checking is not even a possibility.

He was already known as a sleazy conman and the butt of jokes for decades before he won in 2016. How could they not know?

He was already known as a sleazy conman and the butt of jokes for decades before he won in 2016. How could they not know?

Maybe the joke went over their heads?

I've heard many say they don't like what he has done but somehow he is still the best thing ever in spite of that.

Maybe it ties into the Christian redemption thing.

From what I gather, many evangelicals who support Trump see him as a fighter against a corrupt worldly government and a champion of their causes.

Then there's the MAGA concept, which plays into their Great Replacement paranoia (the fear that the white Protestant American majority is being replaced by non-whites and non-believers).

The fact that he is about as far from Christ-like as it's possible to be doesn't seem to deter them all that much.

That’s a big part of it, same reason they let rapist pastors stay in positions of authority. The entire belief system is ripe for abusing

Hmm, its seems as if these Christian fellows are quite nieve and easy to fool into believing any old nonsense.

What happened to Romans 13:1

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

They sure seemed eager to use that when Trump got into power.

Same thing that happened to Mark 12:17

Then Jesus said to them, “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.” And they were amazed at him.

And yet they do anything they can to avoid paying taxes.

And let's not forget Mark 10:25

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of God.”

Yet they glorify a man who brags about how rich he is.

How is it that I, an atheist Jew, know Jesus better than they do?

Because you aren't following "the Spirit" (aka listen to your religious leaders dogmatically and tell yourself you are correct because you misinterpret your confirmation bias as spiritual guidance).

Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.” And they were amazed at him.

That's because it was a sidestep answer. In that religion, all things belong to God. Caesar minted the money using their own gold. So, all roman money belonged to caesar and you had to pay your taxes using roman money. The question is then "what exactly is Caesar's and whats gods?" The rabbis couldn't follow up with that question without getting crucified themselves.

That "interpretation" of that story came about after king Charles wanted to raise taxes to raise an army to put down an Irish rebellion. Rightly, parliament didn't trust him to do that and not use the army on them straight after. So, they refused and said the king has no right to force them to do so.

Then, all of a sudden, as if by magic, king Charles was like "you'll never guess what I just found in the bible. Yup, it says so right here. God says you all have to give me money. I know, I know, I couldn't believe my luck when I found it too. Good job I'm a king and wouldn't lie about such things."

The more reasonable christians out there who still believe that aren't dramatic enough for the headlines.

Yeps remember when Jeff Sessions said that to justify kids in cages. The night he said that was my last connection to organized religion.

People thinking Trump is a Christian symbol is the biggest con ever.

He's literally the antithesis of everything children are taught in Sunday school. Greedy, cheats on his wife, a bully, not humble, etc.

Anti-christ is a Christian symbol, It even fits in the end of time they're jerking off to.

They do love a useful idiot.

This is all such absolute insanity. So disappointed in the human race these days.

...I found them all drunk, and I did not find any of them thirsty. My soul ached for the children of humanity, because they are blind in their hearts and do not see, for they came into the world empty, and they also seek to depart from the world empty.

But meanwhile they are drunk. When they shake off their wine, then they will change their ways.

  • An apocryphal statement nearly 2,000 years old that seems to have underestimated people's taste for the opiate of the masses

Sounds like these preachers want their tax-exempt status revoked.

22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name...23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Matt 7:22..., 23 NIV

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How is this not endorsing political candidates which means their tax exemption should be revoked?

Tell the IRS to withdraw his tax-exempt status stat.

a persecuted Trump has God's protection.

Nothing they need to do about it then. Their God wouldn't be so weak that 90 some court cases and a lack of funds could stop their Chosen One right?

Technically the antichrist is sent by God also

I get the feeling a carpenter-turned-messiah wouldn't choose a dude who is well known for not paying his contractors.

They're trying to jail him!

... That's because he's a criminal, love.

The man is the living embodiment of the seven deadly sins: pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath, and sloth. And this is the guy God sent? Maybe there is a reason for that.

Per their beliefs…kind of, right?

God also gave them Biden

Speaker Mike Johnson said God appointed Biden as president

The Moron Messiah, King of the Assholes, Hero to the Stupid

Jesus would be pissed if he heard this. Too bad he is make believe like his dad.

The historical existence of Jesus is not disputed.

Don't worry. These are the same people who think that reindeer and narwhals are also fictional.

Yeah, I totally meant that a man named Jesus never existed.

Really though, Jesus never turned a man unblind nor a river into wine. It's all story time in Gallilee.

Attack ideas not people please. It ought to be really easy for you to present evidence for your Messiah.

We aren't saying Jesus was a messiah or in any way divine, but he was there and did things (probably different from what Christianity claims)

You can dislike and oppose Christianity w/o denying the fact that Jesus exists.

Ok you weakened your claim. Fine, now prove your weakened claim. This really shouldn't be that difficult.

And? 95% of the humans race believes in some form of God. About 66% of biblical scholars believe the Resurrection was a true historical event as well as the gospel author citations being accurate

Are you being intentionally clueless? The image specifically says "modern scholars", whereas all of your examples are of unqualified people. Moreover, most scholars of antiquity are not Christian.

Yes modern scholars. The typical modern scholar of the bible believes the events really happened and the attributions are correct.

How much longer are you going to continue to use the circular logic of something is true because it is believed to be true and it is believed to be true because people believe that it is true?

Present evidence, not arguments from authority or No True Scotsmen. I can demonstrate vaccines work by data not be invoking some doctor who said something one time.

Bro it's 2024. The sky being blue is disputed.

Are you sure about that?

Nobody’s “sure”, but there are enough records and accounts to be reasonably confident that among the many traveling rabbis collecting followers in Roman Judaea was one from Nazareth named Joshua/Jesus, and that he was executed for political activities.

That’s it though.

Beyond that, his story is largely a creation of his followers, some of whom were apocalyptically charismatic enough in their own right to keep an ember alive, and eventually it sort of spread among the Jewish diaspora and the military, and happened to be in (relative) ascendance with the latter when an Eastern emperor needed to rethink some political strategies.

After that, it’s largely survivorship bias, with every hint of writing about him being preserved, transcribed, recreated, or invented from whole cloth, and anything from his contemporary itinerant preachers being ignored or suppressed.

After that, it’s largely survivorship bias, with every hint of writing about him being preserved, transcribed, recreated, or invented from whole cloth, and anything from his contemporary itinerant preachers being ignored or suppressed.

Not quite. In fact, there's a rather significant survivorship bias around the versions of Jesus. Literally the very earliest primary documents involve someone known for persecuting Christians telling Christians in an area he has no authority to persecute that they should abandon other versions of Jesus they accepted or other gospels in favor of the version he claimed based on spiritual visions of someone he never met in life.

We have nothing but fragments recorded by its critics of the Gospel of the Egyptians, for example, and the Gospel of Thomas we only have because of a single person burying it in a jar around the time it became punishable by death to possess.

The version of Jesus with female disciples that was talking about Greek atomism and Epicurean proto-evolutionary thought is actually super interesting historically given the overall philosophy, but it's barely extant and only is because of archeological discoveries after the church lost effectively mega-monarchal status to just become a mega corporation instead.

And even in the modern era discoveries the church has any purview over like the Mar Saba letter abruptly go missing before it can be further validated by scholars.

The survivorship around "other versions" of Jesus look like they were conducted by Stalin with a two millennia reach. It involved literally burning down the successor to the library of Alexandria (and with it sources potentially related to a "Gospel of the Egyptians").

May I see those records? Contemporary first hand please.

Also I was wondering if you could explain why Paul never mentions Nazareth or anyone else until Mark needs a name of smallest toen he can find in the area. Man, Mark could really set a scene well.

The historical existence of several Jewish reformers of the era baked into a singular allegory is not disputed.

Ergo, he's make believe - just like his dad.

You don't have to deny Jesus' existence, which is overtly true, to deny that what he taught was true— or the same as modern day Christianity

It's not worth arguing with the folk that push this narrative.

If they are as poorly informed to make the argument it's likely in large part because of an affinity for the concept greater than an affinity for knowledge of any details surrounding it.

So providing a counterpoint or more details just falls on willfully deaf ears.

To be fair though, the blame falls more on proselytizers deafening so many ears with their bullshit than on the people with such an acquired distaste for the canonical Jesus that they feel the need to throw out historical Jesus with the bathwater. I definitely get the sentiment, even if the historical Jesus became one of my hyperfocus interests over the past few years.

Ha ha ha, Jesus never existed. Stop living in the Bronze Age.

You don't have to deny Jesus' existence, which is overtly true, to deny that what he taught was true— or the same as modern day Christianity

Jesus did not exist, which is overtly true.

Yeah! And neither did Pontius Pilate! \s

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate_stone

Contemporary physical evidence of Pilate. Please produce some for your Messiah.

Our messiah? accepting Jesus' existence historically does not mean we are Christians

Fine you are not a Christian. Cool. Now do you have evidence of your weakened claim or are you just going to point to other people to make your argument for you?

Why would the assumption be that acknowledging the existence of Jesus makes you Christian? And how is not being Christian weakening my claim?

Non-Christian sources used to study and establish the historicity of Jesus include the c. first century Jewish historian Josephus and Roman historian Tacitus. These sources are compared to Christian sources, such as the Pauline letters and synoptic gospels, and are usually independent of each other; that is, the Jewish sources do not draw upon the Roman sources. Similarities and differences between these sources are used in the authentication process.[82][83][84][85] From these two independent sources alone, certain facts about Jesus can be adduced: that he existed, his personal name was Jesus, he was called a messiah, he had a brother named James, he won over Jews and gentiles, Jewish leaders had unfavorable opinions of him, Pontius Pilate decided his execution, he was executed by crucifixion, and he was executed during Pilate's governorship.[33] Josephus and Tacitus agree on four sequential points: a movement was started by Jesus, he was executed by Pontius Pilate, his movement continued after his death, and that a group of "Christians" still existed; analogous to common knowledge of founders and their followers like Plato and Platonists.[86]

Serious historians of the early Christian movement—all of them—have spent many years preparing to be experts in their field. Just to read the ancient sources requires expertise in a range of ancient languages: Greek, Hebrew, Latin, and often Aramaic, Syriac, and Coptic, not to mention the modern languages of scholarship (for example, German and French). And that is just for starters. Expertise requires years of patiently examining ancient texts and a thorough grounding in the history and culture of Greek and Roman antiquity, the religions of the ancient Mediterranean world, both pagan and Jewish, knowledge of the history of the Christian church and the development of its social life and theology, and, well, lots of other things. It is striking that virtually everyone who has spent all the years needed to attain these qualifications is convinced that Jesus of Nazareth was a real historical figure."

The idea that Jesus was a purely mythical figure has been and still is considered an untenable fringe theory in academic scholarship for more than two centuries,[note 4] but has gained popular attention in recent decades due to the growth of the internet.[8]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

Copying and posting gish gallop

first century Jewish historian Josephus

Two passages one talking about James which might be a fraud. The other passage mentioning Jesus and we know that one is a a complete fabrication. Also we know that you can't follow instructions now because Josphius was writing +40 years after the supposed events and I asked for contemporary.

Roman historian Tacitus.

Talks about a group called Christus (annoited ones) not Christians (followers of the Annoited one) gets the rank wrong for Pilat indicating that he wasn't even checking Roman records. Lived almost an entire century after the supposed events.

such as the Pauline letters a

Paul reported his visions, admits that he never met the apostles or Jesus before he started preaching, and admits that his.knowledge of Jesus came from dreams not feom humans

synoptic gospels

Seriously? John copied off Luke and Matthew, Luke copied off Matthew, Matthew copied off Mark and Mark combined a few random stories from OT with some Roman literature specifically to bash the James community. There is no evidence any of the events in the Gospels occurred and we know the authors were lying about the oral traditions that they were told.

and are usually independent of each other;

Bull fucking shit. Mark had access to the letters of Paul and possibly had heard him speak. Additionally Paul was probably dead by the time the Mark Gospel was written. For 4 decades Paul was going around Rome telling stories about his imaginary friend which is amble time for the weird sandwich stories found in Mark. We can trace an exact line between the Gospels and Paul how what he wrote had to be dealt with by later offers. They are independent in the sense that Obama and Biden are independent.

the Jewish sources do not draw upon the Roman sources.

Citation needed. Please prove that no Jewish person in history used Roman records for anything.

From these two independent sources alone, certain facts about Jesus can be adduced: that he existed, his personal name was Jesus, he was called a messiah, he had a brother named James, he won over Jews and gentiles, Jewish leaders had unfavorable opinions of him, Pontius Pilate decided his execution, he was executed by crucifixion, and he was executed during Pilate’s governorship.

Jesus means saviour. The odds of a saviour being named saviour are about the odds of a revolutionary leader being given the name Rebel at birth. And you haven't established any of the facts you claim not can you elaborate on any of them.

I don't give a flying fuck about a "messiah." I just don't see any good reason to deny the existence of a historical figure (in this case, a Jewish carpenter who pissed people off and got executed for it) out of pure delusional spite.

  • total lack of relics
  • Total lack of any contemporary records
  • A timeline of events that are way too short and full of contradictions
  • The ability of anyone with some basic knowledge of the texts at the time to find where each line of the NT was stolen from
  • The most prolific writer about the guy admits he got his ideas from dreams not from witnesses
  • No royal lineage established

There are reasons to believe the man didn't exist and you have not provided a single shred of evidence that he did exist.

From the wiki article "Historocity of Jesus" that youve carefully ignored in other replies. Emphasis courtesy of the secular individual entitled, 'me.'

"The criterion of multiple attestation looks at the number of early sources that mention, and evaluates the reliability of those sources. To establish the existence of a person without any assumptions, one source from one author (either a supporter or opponent) is needed; for Jesus there are at least twelve independent sources from five authors in the first century from supporters and two independent sources from two authors from non-supporters.[29][note 8] There are Christian sources on the person of Jesus (the letters of Paul and the Gospels) and there are also Jewish and Roman sources (e.g. Josephus, Suetonius, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, and rabbinic tradition[which?]) that mention Jesus,[2][31][32][33] and there are also many apocryphal texts that are examples of the wide variety of writings from early Christianity. These additional sources are independent sources on Jesus's existence, and corroborate details found in other surviving sources as a "bedrock of historical tradition".[33][34] Contemporary non-Christian sources in the first and second century never deny the existence of Jesus,[35] and there is also no indication that Pagan or Jewish writers in antiquity who opposed Christianity questioned the existence of Jesus.[36][37][33] Taking into consideration that sources on other first century individuals from Galilee were also written by either supporters or enemies as well, the sources on Jesus cannot be dismissed.[29][38]

[...]

Historiographical approaches associated with the study of the poor in the past, such as microhistory, can help assess what type of sources can be reasonably expected in the historical record for individuals like Jesus. For instance, Justin Meggitt argues that since most people in antiquity left no sign of their existence, especially the poor, it is unreasonable to expect non-Christian sources to corroborate the specific existence of someone with Jesus's socio-economic status.[52] Ehrman argues that the historical record for the first century was so lacking that no contemporary eyewitness reports for prominent individuals such as Pontius Pilate or Josephus survive.[53] Theissen and Merz observe that even if ancient sources were to be silent on any individual, they would not impact their historicity since there are numerous instances of people whose existence is never doubted and yet were not mentioned by contemporary authors. For instance, Paul is not mentioned by Josephus or non-Christian sources; John the Baptist is not mentioned by Paul, Philo, or rabbinic writings; Rabbi Hillel is not mentioned by Josephus - despite him being a Pharisee; Bar Kochba, a leader of the Jewish revolt against the Romans is not mentioned by Dio Cassius in his account of the revolt.[54] With at least 14 sources by believers and nonbelievers within a century of the crucifixion, there is much more evidence available for Jesus than for other notable people from 1st century Galilee.[55] Non-Christian sources do exist and they corroborate some details of the life of Jesus that are also found in New Testament sources.[33] Historian Michael Grant argues that when the New Testament is analyzed with the same criteria used by historians on ancient writings that contain historical material, Jesus's existence cannot be denied anymore than secular figures whose existence is never questioned.[56

[...]

The seven Pauline epistles considered by scholarly consensus to be genuine were written in a span of a decade starting in the late 40s (i.e., approximately 20 to 30 years after the generally accepted time period of Jesus's death) and are the earliest surviving Christian texts that include information about Jesus.[40] Although Paul the Apostle provides relatively little biographical information about Jesus[70] and states that he never knew Jesus personally, he does make it clear that he considers Jesus to have been a real person[note 13] and a Jew.[71][72][73][74][note 14] Moreover, he interacted with eyewitnesses of Jesus since he wrote about meeting and knowing James, the brother of Jesus[75][note 15][note 10] and Jesus's apostles Peter[77][note 16] and John.[79] Additionally, there are independent sources (Mark, John, Paul, Josephus) affirming that Jesus actually had brothers.[80] Craig A. Evans and Ehrman argue that Paul's letters are among the earliest sources that provide a direct link to people who lived with and knew Jesus since Paul was personally acquainted with Peter and John, two of Jesus's original disciples, and James, the brother of Jesus.[46][77] Paul's first meeting with Peter was around 36 AD.[77] Paul is the earliest surviving source to document Jesus' death by crucifixion and his conversion occurred two years after this event.[40] Paul mentioned details in his letters such as that Jesus was a Jew, born of the line of David, and had biological brothers.[40] According to Simon Gathercole, Paul's description of Jesus's life on Earth, his personality, and family tend to establish that Paul regarded Jesus as a natural person, rather than an allegorical figure.[81]

[...]

Non-Christian sources used to study and establish the historicity of Jesus include the c. first century Jewish historian Josephus and Roman historian Tacitus. These sources are compared to Christian sources, such as the Pauline letters and synoptic gospels, and are usually independent of each other; that is, the Jewish sources do not draw upon the Roman sources. Similarities and differences between these sources are used in the authentication process.[82][83][84][85] From these two independent sources alone, certain facts about Jesus can be adduced: that he existed, his personal name was Jesus, he was called a messiah, he had a brother named James, he won over Jews and gentiles, Jewish leaders had unfavorable opinions of him, Pontius Pilate decided his execution, he was executed by crucifixion, and he was executed during Pilate's governorship.[33] Josephus and Tacitus agree on four sequential points: a movement was started by Jesus, he was executed by Pontius Pilate, his movement continued after his death, and that a group of "Christians" still existed; analogous to common knowledge of founders and their followers like Plato and Platonists.[86] Jesus is referenced by Josephus twice, once in Book 18 and once in Book 20 of Antiquities of the Jews, written around AD 93 to 94. On the first reference, the general scholarly view holds that the longer passage, known as the Testimonium Flavianum, in Book 18 most likely consists of an authentic nucleus that was subjected to later Christian interpolation or forgery.[87][88] On the second reference, Josephus scholar Louis H. Feldman states that "few have doubted the genuineness" of the reference found in Antiquities 20, 9, 1 to "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James".[89][90][91][92] Tacitus, in his Annals (written c. AD 115), book 15, chapter 44,[93] describes Nero's scapegoating of the Christians following the Fire of Rome. He writes that the founder of the sect was named Christus (the Christian title for Jesus); that he was executed under Pontius Pilate; and that the movement, initially checked, broke out again in Judea and even in Rome itself.[94] The scholarly consensus is that Tacitus' reference to the execution of Jesus by Pilate is both authentic and of historical value as an independent Roman source.[95][96][97]

Still coping and pasting without reading.

What part of contemporary evidence did you not understand? I want something while he was alive that says he existed.

God reading comprehension is low. If that is your only criteria, you are going to find very few existing people. The amount of sources that corroborate each other, especially in the first century after his death, is more than any poor person from that time and place would ever be expected to have. The text I posted gives you examples of other figures generally taken to have existed that have no other mentions by contemporary sources.

The burden of proof here lies on you to find a reason why the body of sources that do exist, compounded by the scholarly work thats been published and peer reviewed on this topic, are for some reason to not be trusted. If there is a scientific consensus on something, then that is what should be taken for truth unless presented evidence to the contrary.

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Given that you just saw someone dispute it, you know that isn't true.

Obviously there are fringe cases. His existence (not his role as Messiah— you seem to be conflating the two) is not disputed by modern scholars of antiquity.

exactly. no one is delusional enough to think he was real.

You don't have to deny Jesus' existence, which is overtly true, to deny that what he taught was true— or the same as modern day Christianity

extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof by those making the claim. good luck.

How is "some guy existed and said something about religion but idk what he said" extraordinary?

Very well. Explain where all the traditions about his acts and sayings came from. There is evidence of attestation and you should be able to address that.

Because the whole thing is a con explanation does address that. They were running a grift and that was it. Of course the stories and sayings are all mixed up, liars need amazing memories. And of course the Jerusalem church was doing well they could draw in the crowds each week with yet another amazing adventure of Jesus.

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You know when religious apologist say "Why would so many believe it back in the day if it was fake???"

Tell them it's 2023, we have the internet, video, photos and morons still believe the shit Trump says....

They’re trying to take everything he’s got.

"And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek, offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak, forbid not to take thy coat also.

Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods, ask them not back."

"Evangelicals demonstrate that their beliefs aren't not, in fact, closely held."

In a sane world the blatant hypocrisy would be a slam dunk in terms of removing any protections or privileges they enjoy as a "religion."

No I don't think God hates us that much

If there is a God he probably rarely thinks about us.

Think about it. How often do you think about ants? Probably close to never, and if you do it's probably because they're in your shit or because you accidentally killed a bunch of them.

But what do you do when you accidentally kill some ants? 🤷‍♂️ oopsies

It's interesting how over time the known universe keeps growing so as you put it any god out there keeps getting more distance from us.

At one point earth was it and the stuff in the sky moved under a dome. Also monotheism wasn't a thing yet so your god was basically just some dead warrior that sometimes took human form. Like Spawn or something. That is a god you can sorta relate to.

Now they are saying there is at least 2 trillion galaxies possibly 8 trillion and also the universe might be a lot older than the 13 billion number. That is a lot less relatable.

God: stop bothering me for a cure for your cancer, I am busy making elementary particle strings do probability wiggles things in like 15 spacial dimensions on a single rock 12 billion light years from you.

Well shit, you make it sound like wiggling elementary particles on a lifeless iron-silicon based planet 12 billion light years away sound like a waste of time!

Something something, this sounds like the prophecy of the coming antichrist

He’s their Lisan al Gaib.

Yeah thankfully that’s the only part of the metaphor that holds… american evangelicals are about as far from a hardened warrior society as you can get…

At his next rally, I imagine he'll waddle onstage to Jesus, He Knows Me.

… so the evangelicals love trump because he represents everything they are?

I was these many years old when repubes mocked Obama by calling him “ThEir MesSiaH”. Every fucking thing is a projection.

The good lord actually gave you everything and everyone, dumbass, stop picking and choosing