So.... they swap out the couchfucking weirdo for the brain-worm weirdo.
this is gonna go so well!
Slurp that fetid whale juice!
All hail the hypno-choad.
As long as we don't discuss donnie, it might be a sort of valid strategy.
Or so I start to think.
Trump dies on the second day in office, then the newly minted President Kennedy butchers a bald eagle on the Oval Office desk, cooks it in an air fryer perched on the railing of the window, then tosses it in buffalo sauce and eats it before blowing the brain worms to kingdom come with an original flintlock from the time of Thomas Jefferson that was sitting on one of the shelves.
I would watch that pay per view.
I'm not even sure I oppose this timeline
I'm fine with this. Honestly. Beats having President Trump again, and you know it does.
If Dems take the House and make someone besides Nancy Pelosi the Speaker then this isn't a bad outcome
Hakeem "More Hand Movements than an Air Force Ground Crew" Jeffries is the name you seek.
this comment is extra special.
Better than the shit Vance has planned.
(I have no idea what rfk has planned.)
RFK vs Walz would be a truly insane debate.
"how many roadkill raccoons have YOU fit into a roadkill deer? Huh, Mr Waltz?!?"
My opponent has never chainsawed off the head of a dead whale for personal whale anatomy experiments. Do you really want someone without that valuable experience as second in line for the presidency?
leans on podium "hey buddy, what are you doing after this?"
Waltz: "going to pick up my wife and go for a nice drive, you?"
RFK: "So I'm hearin 'nothin'. How bout we find some dead animals and relocate them to other places, with oft-stolen items? If I can find a cat, I'm gonna put it by the library with a rolled up $20."
Waltz: "Why does it have to be rolled up?"
RFK: "that's... look man, that's just how it already is right now, alright? That's how the bank lady gave it to me, or whatever. Anyways, if we find a squirrel, I'm putting it at an elementary school with a gun, some drugs and a flamingo lawn ornament."
Waltz: "and this is a hobby of yours?"
RFK: incoherent screaming
RFK is an insane piece of shit but he’s been sober for a very long time. He used to be hella addicted to heroin.
This made me laugh out loud
Oh please do.
I will fucking bet you he does it and the numbers drop after it happens. In fact I have this bet already, but I'll make it again.
Do you think he’d swap back, or find some new guy?
after some dumb shit? Bruh idk. This election season so fucking off the rails.
But I owe some one twenty bucks if the following doesn't happen:
Trump swaps out Vance as VP and the resulting polling is lower.
If that does happen, I will much more than 20 bucks.
Is there a time frame involved? Like..if the polling goes up in the first week and then falls off a cliff after brain worm guy opens his mouth?
No time frame. I'd need way better odds than what I got to put a timeline on it.
Idk, I think I’d see trump numbers up after that. RFK jr is going appeal to the fringe libertarian…especially considering the orange turd’s health and age
he tried to cozy up to the libertarians and they rejected him for not being very libertarian at all
Bet? $20?
Last person gave me 100 to one on the parlay that he both swaps out the VP nomination AND when that is done, his poll numbers go down.
So if you believe what you said, my $20 is free money.
All bets are off at this point imo, this shit has been going in what ever way the wind blows. Although, I would bet on a Kamala presidency 🤞if everyone votes
It’s all winners in that party, I tell ya, lol
They are truly sending their best.
ironically, RFK Jr has never had an elected office. So he's every ounce as incompetent as Trump. Not that Vance is any more competent.
From what I've seen of the guy, I feel the only reason anybody knows him is his name.
C’mon man, give his batshit insane behaviour a little credit.
Wasn't Vance officially chosen by the delegates at the RNC? Can Trump actually pick someone else now? What would the party have to do to change their nomination after the convention-hold an emergency meeting and revote?
At this point there's no way to do it legally. Ballots are already being printed. But legality's not an issue for Trump and his personal fan club.
I think Vance could step down, then Trump would have no running mate, I think? And a VP would be appointed by Congress if he wins? Idk.
Technically,
The president and vice president are chosen by the electoral college in separate votes.
Though, for some time, it's always been the winning candidate's selected running mate... there is no requirement there. The electors could pick Mittens the back flipping poodle for VP if they wanted.
TRUMP
MITTENS
Size S
Fun fact, the VP was originally supposed to be whoever got second place in the presidential election...until they figured out that the candidates might hate each other and that relationship isn't so great for a president and their VP.
It's not so much that as that the coalitions and eventual parties wanted to hold both seats, so they ran multiple candidates with the assumption that one would be president and the other vice president. The electors would then structure their votes to ensure that the correct person was elected to each position. However, with the difficulties in long-distance communication at the time, this was prone to error. In 1800, this almost led to the candidate for vice president being elected as president.
After that, they realized that it didn't make sense to use one slate of candidates for both positions, so they separated out the ballot into president and vice president. That's essentially how the elections had been running up to that point (particularly because they always had two votes to cast), but it was to easy to make a mistake. Both before and after the amendment, there was a presidential candidate with a running mate vying for the vice presidency.
Thanks for the additional context. And yeah, you're right about the coalitions trying to control both spots.
I don't think we can totally ignore that the 1796 Adams-Jefferson presidency was a vivid example to Congress--specifically, the congress that eventually passed the 12th amendment after the dumpster fire of the 1800 election--on the importance of relationship dynamics in getting things done.
The interesting thing to me about this is that after Washington, there had always been running mates, and the problem wasn't that the President and Vice President may be political opponents. The problem was the old system was open to gamesmanship that thwarted the will of the voters.
1796 did not end with an Adams-Jefferson administration because Jefferson came in second. If things went as planned, it would have been Adams-Pinckney instead. But Hamilton preferred Pinckney over Adams and tried to sway the electors for Jefferson-Burr to vote Jefferson-Pinckney instead, which would have led to a Pinckney-Adams administration despite Pinckney campaigning with Adams as his presumptive Vice President. However, his plan didn't work out, and Jefferson ended up getting the second most number of votes. This led to an Adams-Jefferson administration which was not supposed to happen. This was bad, but the shady dealings happened in the dark, and Adams was at least elected President in accordance to the popular vote. The politicians at the time thought that they could just sweep this under the rug as they now had a better understanding of how to manage their electors.
But, that turned out to be false. In 1800, they planned to be smarter with allocating the electors' votes, but the Democratic-Republicans failed and accidentally cast the same number of votes for both Jefferson and Burr. Under the Constitution, a tie is decided in the House, and the makeup of the House meant that Federalists had the advantage. They preferred Burr over Jefferson, so they tried to subvert the election and appoint a Burr-Jefferson administration rather than Jefferson-Burr. Hamilton ultimately convinced the Federalists to relent and give the election to Jefferson. This was now the second time that Hamilton intervened to orchestrate the results of the election, and this time, it was all out in the open on the House floor. Furthermore, in both of these instances, Hamilton's actions screwed over Burr, leading to the infamous Hamilton-Burr duel that left Hamilton dead and Burr disgraced. So not only did the election show that this Constitution was failing in the democratic ideals of the revolution, it also led to the untimely downfall of two of the country's top political leaders.
So yes, the 1796 election exposed a pretty major issue, and the 1800 election showed that that issue could not be ignored. However, if you're suggesting that the 1796 election led to the 12th Amendment because it showed the problems that arise when the President and Vice President are not politically aligned, I'm not so sure. It's possible, but I don't think that was a revelation to them. At the very least, the parties at the time were always trying to fill both offices with specific people, even before the 12th Amendment. The biggest problem they were trying to address was the way that the old system could be gamed by political elites.
Also, sorry for the big wall of text. I just find this to be a very interesting topic.
I've had fun learning more about it and that includes your exceptional replies. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!!
It would be peak Trump to announce a VP change without checking if it was actually possible 🍿🍿
Trump can do pretty much anything he wants. No one in the GOP has any power to stop him and the moon that supports him.
Lol I meant "mob" but I'll leave it :p
Trump can do any goddamn thing he wants. SCOTUS will step in to make sure RFK is on the ballots if needed.
Democrats: “We’re suing to keep Vance on the ballot”
SCOTUS: “Actually, Trump can do whatever he wants, plus we’re giving him 100 free electoral votes because fuck you.”
The RNC can just change its rules.
Or simply not follow them like history has shown
Agree that they would happily bend any rules for trump, but the RNC already happened and they chose Vance as the VP candidate. How does the Republican Party change their rules now? They would need to have some sort of party vote I think. Emergency RNC 2.0?
Like they'd get in trump's way?
No, I'm sure they'll try to support whatever he says. But, officially the party nominates the VP candidate which they've already done. When Trump tells them to change it, I don't know what mechanism exists to actually do that. The campaign on its own cannot change the ticket.
THE WEIRDO EXCHANGE PROGRAM
ACT NOW
😭😭😭
The couch fucking weirdo is tanking the numbers! Quick! Go find the guy with the brain worm!
Does the GOP have problems finding normal people to run?
Yeah, I guess they would.
You know, it's funny; when you look at someone through rose-colored glasses, all the red flags just look like flags. - Bojack Horseman
Or, more accurately: When you surround yourself with weirdos, all the weirdos start to look normal.
No, normal people just don't poll well with the GOP.
They are all so weird.
They didn't actually. They had problems getting them through primaries.
Ex brain worm, they broke up
The brain eating worm starved to death.
This shit just writes itself.
Turns out... The worm was doing all the thinking
Damn, that worm has better judgement than Cheryl Hines.
Trump’s kinda obviously having serious buyers remorse over Vance and how he’s basically fucking kryptonite to the vast majority of women. And I’m sure he thinks including the Kennedy name on his ticket will give him a big boost. And now that he’s pulling both RFK and Tulsi closer in to the campaign, I’m really thinking it’s only a matter of time.
Dementia Don and Brain Worm Bob. Name a more iconic duo.
That is a good one! Made me laugh :D
Ra. The Kennedy name. No one has given a shit about the Kennedys in so long. Hell, I forgot they existed until that group of smooth-brained dipshits started wearing red hats and quoting The Enquirer and Weekly World News stories as gospel and insisting the one that sadly died in plane crash 25 years ago was raising from the dead.
Oh, I know. All I’m saying is that I believe that’s his “logic”, such as it is.
Bill Burr had a bit about Schwarzenegger marrying a Kennedy, basically marrying into royalty. The whole thing that the guy immigrated, became a movie star, got rich, married into royalty, became governor, how the fuck did that happen.
Have there ever been weirder candidates? Fucking a couch is the least weird thing compared to chainsawing a whale's head or abandoning a dead bear cub in Central Park, and the former is the only one of those probably not true (although Vance hasn't denied it).
Or the brainworms from all the other roadkill he's had a decades-long habit of collecting.
Chainsaw-whale-head-antivaxxer-piece-of-shit-guy
You can’t switch candidates like that! That’s a coup!
At least it is according to this weird douchebag who told me he was totally trustworthy
Trump choosing his VP:
Give me the hillbilly.
I said the real hillbilly.
Perfection.
Honestly thought he was going to pick himself as running mate. It's the only person he'd never blame for losing.
You'd be wrong. Nothing is ever his fault. It's impossible to him.
Then who would he blame when he loses? He needs someone to be the fall guy.
Ever heard of Nancy Pelosi?
No better way to signal stability and confidence than shuffling your deck so close to the big game.
Griffin hails from the centrist wing of the GOP. Every day, she said, Trump gives people like her "more and more permission to not vote for Republicans" as he surrounds himself with people like RFK Jr., Tulsi Gabbard and J.D. Vance, who on the fundamentals, "we just don't agree on, whether it's support for Ukraine, not having tariffs on imports, wanting to pass border security deals."
"So I think he's really doubling down to what is a minority within a minority of the GOP," Griffin added.
I really hope this is true.
Any true "centrist" GOP person would have stayed away from Trump 8 years ago.
In America people who identify themselves as "centrist" usually have no strong opinions on anything. They might also be what we might call a traditional republican suddenly realizing they're surrounded by fascists.
Except the gray alien is Reagan.
No, Reagan was evil, not neutral.
Just like "centrist" Republicans.
But do you think he had no strong feelings one way or the other? He certainly put forth the image of him wanting the best for everyone but his hands were pretty firmly in the controls of most of his worst policy decisions.
I'd argue Bush, Jr. is a better example of a centrist with no strong opinions on anything (and, thus, enabling those around him to do truly awful things).
Yes but also no. There are many people who don't have strong political opinions. Sometimes they're misidentified as centrists. But there are people who have strongly held political positions that fall in the center of the political spectrum. Then, of course, there is center-left and center-right. They're still politically engaged, but don't have much patience for the policy proposals put forward by the far left and far right.
more and more permission to not vote for Republicans
Someone needs to tell these women that they don't need permission from men anymore in order to vote the way they want.
As in 2016, he's not appealing to the centrists. He's letting the Dems do that. Dems go center, he picks up the anti-war and anti-government side of the Dems looking for a molotov cocktail to throw at the military industrial complex. Gabbard and RFK are an attempt to ruse enough of the left that is fed up with big government and big military. Trump in 2016 won because he was a molotov cocktail while Hillary took the center. In 2020, the primaries presented a progressive alternative that excited the base. 2024, the Dems have decided to revive Hilary's strategy of camping the center, folding to the military industrial complex, and disenfranchising their base; likewise Trump is playing the anti-establishment dove. Trump won in 2016 like that. Maybe fewer people will be tricked this time after seeing what happened last time he was in office? Or that's just wishful thinking.
It doesn't matter if he scares off the center. In spite of the strong start, I see Kamala lining up to lose this election by copying Hilary's strategy of collecting the center and establishment. It gives me the jitters. Dems need to run on a progressive path forward, not joyful ignorance while they stoke the fires of war. They need a platform that excites enough voters for downballot races. They need to stand up to the problems in our systems of governing that Trump is offering to burn down which might accelerate some sort of change before we die of ecosystem collapse. Clock is ticking, and the voters may decide we need a kick in the ass if the Dems decide to cozy up to the military like in 1968.
While I agree with you, it shouldn't be forgotten that Hilary still had the popular vote. I think the Dem.s will still win due to Harris not being as hated as Hilary, likely better campaigning than Hilary, Trump being an abysmally bad candidate (just in terms of general political competency, regardless of his beliefs/positions; I think them winning will continue people not taking that point seriously enough), and Harris actually being able to bring out black (and, I would wager, Indian) voters.
I don't think that black people were necessarily excited about Hilary but they absolutely are about Harris. I think they can likely win like this; it won't be a landslide but it'll be O. K.
I agree with what you think they ought to be doing (I want to push the Overton window leftward and going back to the center after it's been pushed so much leftward over the last 8 years is both frustrating and bad policy) but I think Kamala has a bunch more shoring up than Hilary did. I also think it's going to convince Dem.s that this is the way to win; if Kamala continues to govern from the center rather than like her voting record in the Senate, I think we get the same rush to neoliberalism Clinton ushered in. But I'm hoping otherwise.
In general I'm in full agreement, but the fact that Biden stepped aside and they picked Walz as the VP gives me the perception that the Democratic Party is at least acknowledging the existence of the left. They absolutely need to triple or even quadruple down on progressive policies while Harris is in office though*, or we'll be in the exact same position in four years, except with a competent speaker for the GOP instead of the Toupee.
*And not just in the last few months before the next election.
I don’t know why you’re being down voted this is a legit concern
[JD is replaced with Kennedy jr and they meet]
"And how long have you been the VP candidate?"
"It's actually started a while ago when I was walking down the-"
"Okay good." [Turns to rotting bear corpse]
"And how long have you been here?"
[Bear corpse silence]
[Kennedy collapses, a large green caterpillar emerges from his nose]
[JD, to worm] "And how long have you been here?
[Also to worm] "I'm JD Vance, and until recently I was running for Vice President."
[worm] "Okay."
Thank you for this visual. It was a fun ride
so the GOP wants to switch creepy couch-fucker with creepy brain-worm bear carcass dumper... and that is an improvement?!
Don't forget decapitating a dead whale
And the anti vaxer who lies to the media about being an anti vaxer, buy proclaims it to conservative media.
Yeah this feels like a "bad to worse" type of decision
Ahh, Sock. They ruined an already failing show by going all-in on season 2 Sockmania. Not that it was his fault.
Make them fight over it, arm RFK with a sofa piece and arm Vance with a piece of some dead animal
Why didn't he go with DeSantis?
Because Desantis challenged him in the primary. It's as simple and petty as that.
And also remember that the VP can Amendment 25 Trump straight out of office on day one (with some help from the cabinet), and will even have a plausible reason to do so. Trump has to be paranoid about his VP pick.
The GOP is too scared of pissing off Trump or his base to even consider doing something like that. If they were a smart evil organization they would have dumped Trump long ago.
Perhaps. Think about it from Trump's perspective. How much does he trust any of them?
Oh, not at all, nor should he. I just know they're too cowardly to do it.
The fun thing is that De Santis could Amendment 12 Trump straight out of office, as they both live in Florida.
Trump wants a pretty nonentity.
Pence looked like a 1960s TV version of a Vice President. Vance looked like someone the rural MAGoos would like.
DeSantis might actually [accidentally] tell Trump the truth...
He wants loyalty, and one that will do what Pence didn't do.
he did. JD Vance is one of those ironic punishments Olympians gave to people that pissed them off. someone with as much ability to come off as human, let alone normal, as desantis, if not less.
Since Vance is officially the VP running mate and ballots are probably going to be printed soon, could he actually get swapped this late?
Don't think so legally, but the law has never stopped Dipshit Don from doing idiotic and horrible things before. 🤣
I can see draft dodger Don just saying “I have two VP picks now. How it is!” The RNC would roll with it because they are cowards, and somehow SCOTUS would also be cool with it.
“Doesn’t say he can’t pick two people.” - Uncle Thomas, if he actually knew how to talk.
Epstein buddies teaming up?
In a really weird way this might actually be helpful to the campaign. When RFK dropped out of the race, both Kamala and Trump saw a boost in the polls, meaning there are people that supported RFK that were more Democratic leaning than Republican leaning, though it should be noted Trump went up only a few points more than Kamala did.
JD Vance has been the most unpopular VP pick in modern American history. While RFK is of course weird, I personally wouldn't be surprised if he's seen in a more favourable light than Vance is. The swap could potentially win some of RFK's supporters who moved their support to Kamala over to Trump and the Republicans, and could give the opportunity for "unity" messaging considering Trump would be bringing in a former opponent as well as the Democratic association with the Kennedy name.
Will say though, not sure how effective this would be compared to the Trump campaign simply swapping Vance with someone else that was on the original running for VP pick. Still shocked knowing that Burgum was going to be picked before Trump was swayed to choose Vance, and that Tim Scott wasn't his go-to considering Scott's potential for Republicans playing identity politics and his talent in campaign fundraising.
Game changing this late in the game, no matter what.
I haven't watched either one speak out loud, and do not wish to (30-seconds of audio crushed my smoky fantasies regarding Lauren Boebert), but RFK seems more sane to me.
Bring on the bear and whale jokes, c'mon. But remember when Bush seemed like a guy you could enjoy a beer with? Yeah, that kinda vibe. In any case, nothing will get me to vote R again in this lifetime.
Tbf, having a beer with RFK sounds like an exciting time. Would never vote for him though
I'd shoot heroin with the guy.
That would be fucking hilarious.
He should do it.
I'm not sure I understand what is happening to the united states right now.
This would be chaos, but there's no way it happens. Trump is too beholden to dark money to try it.
Money will be spent by the time he probably tries to do it. There's a bunch of legal hurdles that should stop it from happening, but look at the shit this idiot does.
Can't you NOT swap out VPs?
Vance is a couch fucker btw
Low Energy
Do it, give us mr brain worms to mock!
Now if they actually dumped Trump they might have something there, but there's just no way in hell he will.
So you're questioning Trump's judgement?
Never interrupt your opponent when they are making a mistake.
Omg, pleeeeeease! That’s all I want!
Pfft. No one votes for number 2.
Just met my kid's teacher! She is trans and I would vote her for president. Also on the radio there was an ad about legal help for people in their 90s with care. Just pay the legal fee and all is good. But 🤔, people older than retirement age aren't that abundant. So it's a mystery how we ended up with two of the oldest candidates ever.
::: spoiler Raw Story - News Source Context (Click to view Full Report)
Information for Raw Story:
So.... they swap out the couchfucking weirdo for the brain-worm weirdo.
this is gonna go so well!
Slurp that fetid whale juice!
All hail the hypno-choad.
As long as we don't discuss donnie, it might be a sort of valid strategy.
Or so I start to think.
Trump dies on the second day in office, then the newly minted President Kennedy butchers a bald eagle on the Oval Office desk, cooks it in an air fryer perched on the railing of the window, then tosses it in buffalo sauce and eats it before blowing the brain worms to kingdom come with an original flintlock from the time of Thomas Jefferson that was sitting on one of the shelves.
I would watch that pay per view.
I'm not even sure I oppose this timeline
I'm fine with this. Honestly. Beats having President Trump again, and you know it does.
If Dems take the House and make someone besides Nancy Pelosi the Speaker then this isn't a bad outcome
Hakeem "More Hand Movements than an Air Force Ground Crew" Jeffries is the name you seek.
this comment is extra special.
Better than the shit Vance has planned.
(I have no idea what rfk has planned.)
RFK vs Walz would be a truly insane debate.
"how many roadkill raccoons have YOU fit into a roadkill deer? Huh, Mr Waltz?!?"
My opponent has never chainsawed off the head of a dead whale for personal whale anatomy experiments. Do you really want someone without that valuable experience as second in line for the presidency?
leans on podium "hey buddy, what are you doing after this?"
Waltz: "going to pick up my wife and go for a nice drive, you?"
RFK: "So I'm hearin 'nothin'. How bout we find some dead animals and relocate them to other places, with oft-stolen items? If I can find a cat, I'm gonna put it by the library with a rolled up $20."
Waltz: "Why does it have to be rolled up?"
RFK: "that's... look man, that's just how it already is right now, alright? That's how the bank lady gave it to me, or whatever. Anyways, if we find a squirrel, I'm putting it at an elementary school with a gun, some drugs and a flamingo lawn ornament."
Waltz: "and this is a hobby of yours?"
RFK: incoherent screaming
RFK is an insane piece of shit but he’s been sober for a very long time. He used to be hella addicted to heroin.
This made me laugh out loud
Oh please do.
I will fucking bet you he does it and the numbers drop after it happens. In fact I have this bet already, but I'll make it again.
Do you think he’d swap back, or find some new guy?
after some dumb shit? Bruh idk. This election season so fucking off the rails.
But I owe some one twenty bucks if the following doesn't happen:
Trump swaps out Vance as VP and the resulting polling is lower.
If that does happen, I will much more than 20 bucks.
Is there a time frame involved? Like..if the polling goes up in the first week and then falls off a cliff after brain worm guy opens his mouth?
No time frame. I'd need way better odds than what I got to put a timeline on it.
Idk, I think I’d see trump numbers up after that. RFK jr is going appeal to the fringe libertarian…especially considering the orange turd’s health and age
he tried to cozy up to the libertarians and they rejected him for not being very libertarian at all
Bet? $20?
Last person gave me 100 to one on the parlay that he both swaps out the VP nomination AND when that is done, his poll numbers go down.
So if you believe what you said, my $20 is free money.
All bets are off at this point imo, this shit has been going in what ever way the wind blows. Although, I would bet on a Kamala presidency 🤞if everyone votes
It’s all winners in that party, I tell ya, lol
They are truly sending their best.
ironically, RFK Jr has never had an elected office. So he's every ounce as incompetent as Trump. Not that Vance is any more competent.
From what I've seen of the guy, I feel the only reason anybody knows him is his name.
C’mon man, give his batshit insane behaviour a little credit.
Wasn't Vance officially chosen by the delegates at the RNC? Can Trump actually pick someone else now? What would the party have to do to change their nomination after the convention-hold an emergency meeting and revote?
At this point there's no way to do it legally. Ballots are already being printed. But legality's not an issue for Trump and his personal fan club.
I think Vance could step down, then Trump would have no running mate, I think? And a VP would be appointed by Congress if he wins? Idk.
Technically,
The president and vice president are chosen by the electoral college in separate votes.
Though, for some time, it's always been the winning candidate's selected running mate... there is no requirement there. The electors could pick Mittens the back flipping poodle for VP if they wanted.
TRUMP
MITTENS
Size S
Fun fact, the VP was originally supposed to be whoever got second place in the presidential election...until they figured out that the candidates might hate each other and that relationship isn't so great for a president and their VP.
It's not so much that as that the coalitions and eventual parties wanted to hold both seats, so they ran multiple candidates with the assumption that one would be president and the other vice president. The electors would then structure their votes to ensure that the correct person was elected to each position. However, with the difficulties in long-distance communication at the time, this was prone to error. In 1800, this almost led to the candidate for vice president being elected as president.
After that, they realized that it didn't make sense to use one slate of candidates for both positions, so they separated out the ballot into president and vice president. That's essentially how the elections had been running up to that point (particularly because they always had two votes to cast), but it was to easy to make a mistake. Both before and after the amendment, there was a presidential candidate with a running mate vying for the vice presidency.
Thanks for the additional context. And yeah, you're right about the coalitions trying to control both spots.
I don't think we can totally ignore that the 1796 Adams-Jefferson presidency was a vivid example to Congress--specifically, the congress that eventually passed the 12th amendment after the dumpster fire of the 1800 election--on the importance of relationship dynamics in getting things done.
I actually had written an answer about the effects of the 12th amendment on the politics StackExchange that details how the original elections worked (or failed) under the old system.
The interesting thing to me about this is that after Washington, there had always been running mates, and the problem wasn't that the President and Vice President may be political opponents. The problem was the old system was open to gamesmanship that thwarted the will of the voters.
1796 did not end with an Adams-Jefferson administration because Jefferson came in second. If things went as planned, it would have been Adams-Pinckney instead. But Hamilton preferred Pinckney over Adams and tried to sway the electors for Jefferson-Burr to vote Jefferson-Pinckney instead, which would have led to a Pinckney-Adams administration despite Pinckney campaigning with Adams as his presumptive Vice President. However, his plan didn't work out, and Jefferson ended up getting the second most number of votes. This led to an Adams-Jefferson administration which was not supposed to happen. This was bad, but the shady dealings happened in the dark, and Adams was at least elected President in accordance to the popular vote. The politicians at the time thought that they could just sweep this under the rug as they now had a better understanding of how to manage their electors.
But, that turned out to be false. In 1800, they planned to be smarter with allocating the electors' votes, but the Democratic-Republicans failed and accidentally cast the same number of votes for both Jefferson and Burr. Under the Constitution, a tie is decided in the House, and the makeup of the House meant that Federalists had the advantage. They preferred Burr over Jefferson, so they tried to subvert the election and appoint a Burr-Jefferson administration rather than Jefferson-Burr. Hamilton ultimately convinced the Federalists to relent and give the election to Jefferson. This was now the second time that Hamilton intervened to orchestrate the results of the election, and this time, it was all out in the open on the House floor. Furthermore, in both of these instances, Hamilton's actions screwed over Burr, leading to the infamous Hamilton-Burr duel that left Hamilton dead and Burr disgraced. So not only did the election show that this Constitution was failing in the democratic ideals of the revolution, it also led to the untimely downfall of two of the country's top political leaders.
So yes, the 1796 election exposed a pretty major issue, and the 1800 election showed that that issue could not be ignored. However, if you're suggesting that the 1796 election led to the 12th Amendment because it showed the problems that arise when the President and Vice President are not politically aligned, I'm not so sure. It's possible, but I don't think that was a revelation to them. At the very least, the parties at the time were always trying to fill both offices with specific people, even before the 12th Amendment. The biggest problem they were trying to address was the way that the old system could be gamed by political elites.
Also, sorry for the big wall of text. I just find this to be a very interesting topic.
I've had fun learning more about it and that includes your exceptional replies. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!!
It would be peak Trump to announce a VP change without checking if it was actually possible 🍿🍿
Trump can do pretty much anything he wants. No one in the GOP has any power to stop him and the moon that supports him.
Lol I meant "mob" but I'll leave it :p
Trump can do any goddamn thing he wants. SCOTUS will step in to make sure RFK is on the ballots if needed.
Democrats: “We’re suing to keep Vance on the ballot”
SCOTUS: “Actually, Trump can do whatever he wants, plus we’re giving him 100 free electoral votes because fuck you.”
The RNC can just change its rules.
Or simply not follow them like history has shown
Agree that they would happily bend any rules for trump, but the RNC already happened and they chose Vance as the VP candidate. How does the Republican Party change their rules now? They would need to have some sort of party vote I think. Emergency RNC 2.0?
Like they'd get in trump's way?
No, I'm sure they'll try to support whatever he says. But, officially the party nominates the VP candidate which they've already done. When Trump tells them to change it, I don't know what mechanism exists to actually do that. The campaign on its own cannot change the ticket.
THE WEIRDO EXCHANGE PROGRAM
ACT NOW
😭😭😭
The couch fucking weirdo is tanking the numbers! Quick! Go find the guy with the brain worm!
Does the GOP have problems finding normal people to run?
Yeah, I guess they would.
Or, more accurately: When you surround yourself with weirdos, all the weirdos start to look normal.
No, normal people just don't poll well with the GOP.
They are all so weird.
They didn't actually. They had problems getting them through primaries.
Ex brain worm, they broke up
The brain eating worm starved to death.
This shit just writes itself.
Turns out... The worm was doing all the thinking
Damn, that worm has better judgement than Cheryl Hines.
Hahahahahahahahahahaha.
This timeline is wild.
That’s my bet as of this last weekend, tbh.
Trump’s kinda obviously having serious buyers remorse over Vance and how he’s basically fucking kryptonite to the vast majority of women. And I’m sure he thinks including the Kennedy name on his ticket will give him a big boost. And now that he’s pulling both RFK and Tulsi closer in to the campaign, I’m really thinking it’s only a matter of time.
Dementia Don and Brain Worm Bob. Name a more iconic duo.
That is a good one! Made me laugh :D
Ra. The Kennedy name. No one has given a shit about the Kennedys in so long. Hell, I forgot they existed until that group of smooth-brained dipshits started wearing red hats and quoting The Enquirer and Weekly World News stories as gospel and insisting the one that sadly died in plane crash 25 years ago was raising from the dead.
Oh, I know. All I’m saying is that I believe that’s his “logic”, such as it is.
Bill Burr had a bit about Schwarzenegger marrying a Kennedy, basically marrying into royalty. The whole thing that the guy immigrated, became a movie star, got rich, married into royalty, became governor, how the fuck did that happen.
https://youtu.be/JUrMSK8XWFc
Arnold Schwarzenegger is unironically living the American dream. Plus he sees right through the Magats and can tell theyre fascists, which is based.
Yeah that was something talking about his father and the Nazis. Really ties it up.
He might eat back a few sub percentage points of his geriatric base.
You know Donald would cream himself if he could make signs that said Trump and Kennedy.
You cAnT jUsT CHanGe CanDiDAtes
No one knows anything about RFK
Who voted for him
Etc etc
JD, you’re fired!
Couchfucker or chainsaw-whale-head guy . . . .
Spoilt for choice
Have there ever been weirder candidates? Fucking a couch is the least weird thing compared to chainsawing a whale's head or abandoning a dead bear cub in Central Park, and the former is the only one of those probably not true (although Vance hasn't denied it).
Or the brainworms from all the other roadkill he's had a decades-long habit of collecting.
Chainsaw-whale-head-antivaxxer-piece-of-shit-guy
You can’t switch candidates like that! That’s a coup!
At least it is according to this weird douchebag who told me he was totally trustworthy
Trump choosing his VP:
Honestly thought he was going to pick himself as running mate. It's the only person he'd never blame for losing.
You'd be wrong. Nothing is ever his fault. It's impossible to him.
Then who would he blame when he loses? He needs someone to be the fall guy.
Ever heard of Nancy Pelosi?
No better way to signal stability and confidence than shuffling your deck so close to the big game.
I really hope this is true.
Any true "centrist" GOP person would have stayed away from Trump 8 years ago.
In America people who identify themselves as "centrist" usually have no strong opinions on anything. They might also be what we might call a traditional republican suddenly realizing they're surrounded by fascists.
Except the gray alien is Reagan.
No, Reagan was evil, not neutral.
Just like "centrist" Republicans.
But do you think he had no strong feelings one way or the other? He certainly put forth the image of him wanting the best for everyone but his hands were pretty firmly in the controls of most of his worst policy decisions.
I'd argue Bush, Jr. is a better example of a centrist with no strong opinions on anything (and, thus, enabling those around him to do truly awful things).
Yes but also no. There are many people who don't have strong political opinions. Sometimes they're misidentified as centrists. But there are people who have strongly held political positions that fall in the center of the political spectrum. Then, of course, there is center-left and center-right. They're still politically engaged, but don't have much patience for the policy proposals put forward by the far left and far right.
Someone needs to tell these women that they don't need permission from men anymore in order to vote the way they want.
As in 2016, he's not appealing to the centrists. He's letting the Dems do that. Dems go center, he picks up the anti-war and anti-government side of the Dems looking for a molotov cocktail to throw at the military industrial complex. Gabbard and RFK are an attempt to ruse enough of the left that is fed up with big government and big military. Trump in 2016 won because he was a molotov cocktail while Hillary took the center. In 2020, the primaries presented a progressive alternative that excited the base. 2024, the Dems have decided to revive Hilary's strategy of camping the center, folding to the military industrial complex, and disenfranchising their base; likewise Trump is playing the anti-establishment dove. Trump won in 2016 like that. Maybe fewer people will be tricked this time after seeing what happened last time he was in office? Or that's just wishful thinking.
It doesn't matter if he scares off the center. In spite of the strong start, I see Kamala lining up to lose this election by copying Hilary's strategy of collecting the center and establishment. It gives me the jitters. Dems need to run on a progressive path forward, not joyful ignorance while they stoke the fires of war. They need a platform that excites enough voters for downballot races. They need to stand up to the problems in our systems of governing that Trump is offering to burn down which might accelerate some sort of change before we die of ecosystem collapse. Clock is ticking, and the voters may decide we need a kick in the ass if the Dems decide to cozy up to the military like in 1968.
While I agree with you, it shouldn't be forgotten that Hilary still had the popular vote. I think the Dem.s will still win due to Harris not being as hated as Hilary, likely better campaigning than Hilary, Trump being an abysmally bad candidate (just in terms of general political competency, regardless of his beliefs/positions; I think them winning will continue people not taking that point seriously enough), and Harris actually being able to bring out black (and, I would wager, Indian) voters.
I don't think that black people were necessarily excited about Hilary but they absolutely are about Harris. I think they can likely win like this; it won't be a landslide but it'll be O. K.
I agree with what you think they ought to be doing (I want to push the Overton window leftward and going back to the center after it's been pushed so much leftward over the last 8 years is both frustrating and bad policy) but I think Kamala has a bunch more shoring up than Hilary did. I also think it's going to convince Dem.s that this is the way to win; if Kamala continues to govern from the center rather than like her voting record in the Senate, I think we get the same rush to neoliberalism Clinton ushered in. But I'm hoping otherwise.
In general I'm in full agreement, but the fact that Biden stepped aside and they picked Walz as the VP gives me the perception that the Democratic Party is at least acknowledging the existence of the left. They absolutely need to triple or even quadruple down on progressive policies while Harris is in office though*, or we'll be in the exact same position in four years, except with a competent speaker for the GOP instead of the Toupee.
*And not just in the last few months before the next election.
I don’t know why you’re being down voted this is a legit concern
[JD is replaced with Kennedy jr and they meet]
"And how long have you been the VP candidate?"
"It's actually started a while ago when I was walking down the-"
"Okay good." [Turns to rotting bear corpse]
"And how long have you been here?"
[Bear corpse silence]
[Kennedy collapses, a large green caterpillar emerges from his nose]
[JD, to worm] "And how long have you been here?
[Also to worm] "I'm JD Vance, and until recently I was running for Vice President."
[worm] "Okay."
Thank you for this visual. It was a fun ride
so the GOP wants to switch creepy couch-fucker with creepy brain-worm bear carcass dumper... and that is an improvement?!
Don't forget decapitating a dead whale
And the anti vaxer who lies to the media about being an anti vaxer, buy proclaims it to conservative media.
Yeah this feels like a "bad to worse" type of decision
vance presidency would have made this guys career ten years ago. instance snl multiappearances. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_Labine
Ahh, Sock. They ruined an already failing show by going all-in on season 2 Sockmania. Not that it was his fault.
Make them fight over it, arm RFK with a sofa piece and arm Vance with a piece of some dead animal
Why didn't he go with DeSantis?
Because Desantis challenged him in the primary. It's as simple and petty as that.
And also remember that the VP can Amendment 25 Trump straight out of office on day one (with some help from the cabinet), and will even have a plausible reason to do so. Trump has to be paranoid about his VP pick.
The GOP is too scared of pissing off Trump or his base to even consider doing something like that. If they were a smart evil organization they would have dumped Trump long ago.
Perhaps. Think about it from Trump's perspective. How much does he trust any of them?
Oh, not at all, nor should he. I just know they're too cowardly to do it.
The fun thing is that De Santis could Amendment 12 Trump straight out of office, as they both live in Florida.
Trump wants a pretty nonentity.
Pence looked like a 1960s TV version of a Vice President. Vance looked like someone the rural MAGoos would like.
DeSantis might actually [accidentally] tell Trump the truth...
He wants loyalty, and one that will do what Pence didn't do.
he did. JD Vance is one of those ironic punishments Olympians gave to people that pissed them off. someone with as much ability to come off as human, let alone normal, as desantis, if not less.
Since Vance is officially the VP running mate and ballots are probably going to be printed soon, could he actually get swapped this late?
Don't think so legally, but the law has never stopped Dipshit Don from doing idiotic and horrible things before. 🤣
I can see draft dodger Don just saying “I have two VP picks now. How it is!” The RNC would roll with it because they are cowards, and somehow SCOTUS would also be cool with it.
“Doesn’t say he can’t pick two people.” - Uncle Thomas, if he actually knew how to talk.
Epstein buddies teaming up?
In a really weird way this might actually be helpful to the campaign. When RFK dropped out of the race, both Kamala and Trump saw a boost in the polls, meaning there are people that supported RFK that were more Democratic leaning than Republican leaning, though it should be noted Trump went up only a few points more than Kamala did.
JD Vance has been the most unpopular VP pick in modern American history. While RFK is of course weird, I personally wouldn't be surprised if he's seen in a more favourable light than Vance is. The swap could potentially win some of RFK's supporters who moved their support to Kamala over to Trump and the Republicans, and could give the opportunity for "unity" messaging considering Trump would be bringing in a former opponent as well as the Democratic association with the Kennedy name.
Will say though, not sure how effective this would be compared to the Trump campaign simply swapping Vance with someone else that was on the original running for VP pick. Still shocked knowing that Burgum was going to be picked before Trump was swayed to choose Vance, and that Tim Scott wasn't his go-to considering Scott's potential for Republicans playing identity politics and his talent in campaign fundraising.
Game changing this late in the game, no matter what.
I haven't watched either one speak out loud, and do not wish to (30-seconds of audio crushed my smoky fantasies regarding Lauren Boebert), but RFK seems more sane to me.
Bring on the bear and whale jokes, c'mon. But remember when Bush seemed like a guy you could enjoy a beer with? Yeah, that kinda vibe. In any case, nothing will get me to vote R again in this lifetime.
Tbf, having a beer with RFK sounds like an exciting time. Would never vote for him though
I'd shoot heroin with the guy.
That would be fucking hilarious.
He should do it.
I'm not sure I understand what is happening to the united states right now.
the british broadcasting company does though
This would be chaos, but there's no way it happens. Trump is too beholden to dark money to try it.
Money will be spent by the time he probably tries to do it. There's a bunch of legal hurdles that should stop it from happening, but look at the shit this idiot does.
Can't you NOT swap out VPs?
Vance is a couch fucker btw
Low Energy
Do it, give us mr brain worms to mock!
Now if they actually dumped Trump they might have something there, but there's just no way in hell he will.
So you're questioning Trump's judgement?
Never interrupt your opponent when they are making a mistake.
Omg, pleeeeeease! That’s all I want!
Pfft. No one votes for number 2.
Just met my kid's teacher! She is trans and I would vote her for president. Also on the radio there was an ad about legal help for people in their 90s with care. Just pay the legal fee and all is good. But 🤔, people older than retirement age aren't that abundant. So it's a mystery how we ended up with two of the oldest candidates ever.
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