Hundreds dead in Israel and Gaza, thousands injured after Hamas launches rockets, Israel declares war
abcnews.go.com
Over 100 Israelis have died and more than 900 were injured after rockets were fired from Gaza by Hamas militants, Israeli officials said Saturday.
The Palestinian Health Ministry said 198 were killed in Gaza and at least 1,610 were injured Saturday in retaliatory attacks from Israel.
"We are at war. We will win," Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Saturday.
The Israeli Defense Forces earlier declared "a state of alert for war," according to a statement issued by the IDF.
"Over the past hour, the Hamas terrorist organization launched massive barrages of rockets from Gaza into Israel, and its terrorist operatives have infiltrated into Israel in a number of different locations in the south," the IDF said early Saturday.
This is awful, and there are no good sides to it. Hamas are terrorists, and the Israeli government's actions have made this kind of thing inevitable.
A lot of innocent people on both sides will die, nothing will get resolved, and both sides will continue to do horrible things to each other.
This sucks.
Iranian goverment is celebrating the attack they backed.
Thousands will die from their weapons. Thousands more will be permanently disfigured or injured. Hamas put their HQ right in downtown, so when it got predictably destroyed, it hurt a bunch of civilians.
Not surprising since the Saudis and Israel were finally starting to make up, which Iran hates. But sad nonetheless. I hope the Israelis and Palestinians can come to an agreement, and that Iran gets a better, more peaceful government. But I doubt it.
:(
I hate absolutely everything to do with this.
Hamas sets up military operations in a civilian building by force - the civilians have no say in this and get killed if they protest Hamas then uses that building to launch rockets, store ammunition, communication stations How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites? Because what they do is:
“Roof knocking”: Hitting the building’s roof with a small explosive to announce that it will fall in 15 minutes (see video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY example from yesterday) Automatic SMS and phone calls impacted areas warning and urging to evacuate Precision strikes that make the building fall vertically with minimal damage to the areas As a result, civilians (and potentially military personnel) are given a chance to evacuate while ammunition stashes, rocket launching stations etc stay in the building and are destroyed.
To be honest, I’m shocked those protocols are still used after Hamas’s attack. I would absolutely not be surprised of these measures stopped.
The anti-Israel don’t care that Israel is bending over backwards to minimize human suffering while fighting a decades long war against people who are deliberately trying to kill their children.
Remember how upset they are when Israel does something 100 percent defensive, like build a security fence to keep out an endless stream of suicide bombers?
This isn’t good-faith criticism.
These people hate Israel for this that they works be applauding other countries for. And we all know why
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The PNA seems like the good guys?
No good guys here. Hamas doesn't seem to serve the Palestinians, they serve their own Jihadist agenda. Isreal remains a fascist apartheid regime which has been systematically killing all Palestinians in a genocide for decades.
There's action and reaction here.
And reaction and reaction and reaction...going back 5,000 years
Gaza is a massive prison and they don't have anything to loose anymore. Will Israel become the exterminator? We will see.
Murder of civilians celebrated by the whole of their society is not justified by reaction. I suggest you look at some other societies which react to genocidal crimes, for some reference. Most of them don't do that.
Nah, this was the case with Palestinian Arabs all along. Since their "throw all Jews into the sea" till now.
ANC bombed civilians and their attacks were celebrated by many. The IRA did, and were celebrated by many. ETA did, and were celebrated by many. It is common, and suggesting it's unique to Palestinians is pure racism.
EDIT: Ah, looked at one of your other comments that were equally awful. Block incoming.
I don't think you know the difference between collateral damage and massacre. Or maybe you know that, just pretend to be a moron. I can accept your pretense, but not your point.
Are you suggesting it is not true that the groups he mentioned intentionally targeted civilians?
Perhaps you're not old enough to remember the ANC bombing campaign against Wimpy restaurants, mainly timed to go off during lunchtime to maximise damage.
The Church Street bombing it's reasonable to argue collateral damage for, but a burger chain doesn't strike me as a legitimate military or government target you can play the "collateral damage" game with.
Maybe it was just ignorance of history that made you single out Palestinians.
OK. I don't think IRA and ANC had that nasty habit of raping their victims and parading their mutilated bodies, or lynching them, and in general these were not genocidal in ideology while Hamas is. Is that sufficiently clear for you to comprehend?
FFS, I'm Armenian and I could give Israel another try at existing after turning it into radioactive ash, but defending these animals is just vile.
And now you're making an entirely different point and evading addressing the gross generalization you made where you blamed not just Hamas but all Palestinians for the crimes of some and implied they were uniquely bad. At this point I agree with the other person who blocked you.
No, I was only talking about Hamas at every point in this thread.
Because you have no other weapon in this conversation.
Your interpretation is fine. I'll skip your "suggestions", thanks.
Hamas gave being legitimate a try. Israel blocked their accession in the West Bank after they won the election. They were never given a chance to serve Palestinians.
I wouldn't really expect them to idly stand by and let an organization whose charter is essentially "Death to Israel, death to all Jews" to come into power
There cannot be a peaceful coexistence between Israel and Hamas because (and their charter has a section explicitly devoted to this) Hamas does not want it, when they talk of "ending the occupation", they don't just mean of Palestine
Funny thing. If we used that logic then we'd all be dead. No war would ever end but with the complete annihilation of the loser and with nukes that means everyone.
Furthermore, PR line or not, Hamas was elected. Interfering to stop them from taking power is an act of war itself. Justify it how you want but Israel hasn't given peace a chance in a long time.
When one side very explicitly states "there will be no peace, we will keep fighting until one of us is completely wiped out", I struggle to see why the world should not oblige, and while the state of Israel is definitely not perfect it's not very difficult for me lean towards the side that's still managing to perform roof knocking over the complete and utter barbarism displayed by the Hamas terrorists over the fast few days
That's funny because Israel has been violating international law and the laws of war for decades. Roof Knocking doesn't absolve them of using Israeli law in occupied areas, shooting medical personal at unarmed protests, bombing UN facilities, or using White Phosphorus shells that airburst.
I'm not saying Hamas is fighting clean. I'm saying PR doesn't make policy.
Hamas sets up military operations in a civilian building by force - the civilians have no say in this and get killed if they protest Hamas then uses that building to launch rockets, store ammunition, communication stations How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites? Because what they do is:
“Roof knocking”: Hitting the building’s roof with a small explosive to announce that it will fall in 15 minutes (see video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY example from yesterday) Automatic SMS and phone calls impacted areas warning and urging to evacuate Precision strikes that make the building fall vertically with minimal damage to the areas As a result, civilians (and potentially military personnel) are given a chance to evacuate while ammunition stashes, rocket launching stations etc stay in the building and are destroyed.
To be honest, I’m shocked those protocols are still used after Hamas’s attack. I would absolutely not be surprised of these measures stopped.
The anti-Israel don’t care that Israel is bending over backwards to minimize human suffering while fighting a decades long war against people who are deliberately trying to kill their children.
Remember how upset they are when Israel does something 100 percent defensive, like build a security fence to keep out an endless stream of suicide bombers?
This isn’t good-faith criticism.
These people hate Israel for this that they works be applauding other countries for. And we all know why
"Hey so I know we've been doing a genocide but look, we're being really nice when we bomb innocent civilians homes by letting them know we're going to bomb their homes."
This (a) doesn't excuse literal genocide and (b) is just a "nicer" version of exactly the thing they're appalled Hamas just did. You don't get to cry foul if you're going to retaliate with a tit for tat play.
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There was a joke on Rick and Morty that Rick got the Palestinians and the Israelis to sign the treaty of "peace plan that works if you think about it a bit".
I am sure every commenter has one of those plans in their back pocket that would work if implemented. The problem is there is no incentive. In Palestinine, Hamas grows stronger the more Palestinians hate Isreal, and their opposition grows stronger the more Palestinians want peace. Meanwhile Likud grows stronger the more Israelis hate Palestinians, and the opposition grows stronger when Israelis want peace. Why would either side implement something that would decrease their power?
The only way that is solve is from the outside.
Which means treating Israel as Appartheid South Africa was treated, and Hamas as a terrorist group.
However only the last part is done, so the result is every day in Palestine people are born who will live under the boot of Israel and eventually feel they have nothing to loose because of Israel and Israelis, and join Hamas to fight the oppressor, because it's only way to do something with a lifetime of anger and because even being part of a Hamas deemed a terrorist organisation all over the world and limited in their action, status and wealth by it, is still better than a "nothing to loose" situation.
The refusal of Europe and the US to also force the one with the most to lose - Israel - to pull back the boot that's making all those "nothing to loose, desperate and angry" alongside their attempt at making Hamas an unappeling option is what has kept the cycle of violence going.
The blood is mainly on the hands of the US leaders and a number of European leaders because they're the only ones who could stop this (since they're the only ones with the power to stop both sides at the same time, which is the only way to sort this out) and they most certainly have the kind of bright and well informed advisers who would have pointed it out to them, and instead have endorsed Israel's strategy of "tire the Palestineans till they give up and leave", in other words, endorsing genocide.
deleted by creator
This. Peace cannot come unless the civilians on both sides are loudly and forcefully willing to die rather than kill civilians on the other side. The problems can only be solved on an individual level.
This is by design. I guarantee Israeli money gets funneled to Hamas so Hamas can in turn attack Israel then Israel retaliates with far far more force as usual, so on so forth.
The easiest way to get rid of Palestine when you have every major super powers backing is to simply cause then to attack you and win a war of attrition, subjugation, annexation, absorbtion and either erasure or outright propagandizing the entire thing. Like the US and Canada have done with native Americans.
I'm not a supporter of Israel but do you have any source that supports this speculation? Seems irresponsible to bandy it about.
Well there's the fact that Israel legitimately got Hamas started in the first place because it hampered the Palestinian left in their efforts to combat the settlements.
Other than the fact that Hamas was explicitly created by Israel to feed a secular v non secular Palestinian fued? They deny it but everyone knows they're lying because the Israeli army quite literally stepped aside or left when they showed up.
My knowledge on Hamas amounts to the first half of their Wikipedia page so I'd love to learn some more about their. While I can Google their name I'm going to get some weirdly biased shit that will probably contradict itself quickly. Got any suggestions for sources I can read up on to learn more about Israel's influence there?
You probably talking about this article
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
That article has such a stupid take. It takes tiny pieces of quotes from a couple of ex-Israeli officials and with one of them is clearly omitting context. Did Israel permit Islamist groups to do stuff like build mosques and have charities? Yes. Did he also say, but it is not mentioned in the article, that they were completely peaceful at the time and that Israel didn't want to be viewed as attacking Islam? Also yes.
See, what you are saying is that Israel created Hamas by not using more oppression to stop these groups at a time when they were not attacking Israel, but the PLO was. And that is just such a simple naive take that it is ridiculous. Yeah if Israel could redo things, they might have decided that was a good idea. But then again, what if it just caused more attacks from the surrounding countries after they were claimed to be "attacking Islam." Then would we also blame Israel for those attacks due to them repressing the Islamist movements?
It even does the same by using cherry picked foresight about Afghanistan. It entirely ignores the situation in Afghanistan and just implies that the US caused Al Qaeda. Things just aren't that simple. It's entirely possible that had the US and other countries not interfered in Afghanistan that the soviet union would've lasted longer and Afghanistan might've been another Chechnya.
At the time, Israel was having to fight against the PLO. They were not fighting against the religious Islamic groups. And knowing the history of the time period and the politics in the region, the very religious groups were not nearly the force that they are now. So they made choices for reasons that absolutely made sense at the time. And we have no way of knowing how things would be different if they made different choices.
We can say that places that aren't Israel still have issues with the Muslim brotherhood or are friendly with them all over the middle east. And Israel certainly didn't create the Muslim Brotherhood. And if Israel didn't exist and it was all a Palestinian state with a secular government, it isn't a stretch to say that they would be in that area too, calling for an Islamist government. As they have done in Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, and more.
Poor take buddy, the us didnt create al queda no. They did however push enough Intel and weapons into their hands they became the regional power for a time.
There is cause and effect and you can't ignore any of it especially the result regardless of if it was intentional or simply poorly thought out.
POTUS Biden already gave a response on supporting their military ally, Israel, and if I see one more braindead fucking comment like "sUrE BUt WhERe wAs HAwAiI's FaST ReSPoNsE?" Within 4 hours he sent aid an national guard response, idk how right wingers keep using that stupid fucking talking point.
That said I really don't appreciate the onesidedness of the USA response, I have much higher hopes for the UN council assigned to this issue and any UN Task Forces deployed in the future. I believe Israel mostly caused this issue on their own by the apartheid oppression of Palestinians, I think this outcome and many other attrocities would have been completely avoided in the timeline where Rabin wasn't assassinated
LOL! You really don't understand anything about how the world works, do you?
Conveniently skipping over Ariel Sharon there aren't you? You know that time when Israel removed all settlements and ended the occupation of part of Palestine as a goodwill gesture? What happened after that? Something for you to look into.
UNSCO and UNDOF both have headquarters in Jerusalem and consistently have teams both in offices and on the ground upholding ceasefires and patrolling the borders. They've easily done more good with fewer resources than all singular nations combined on this topic.
Yes the UN can help in being observers after a ceasefire is agreed upon.
Does it look like there's an imminent ceasefire agreement between Israel and Hamas?
Do you think there's are UN citizens that sign up for the UN military and go through training to serve on UN missions? Not how it is.
The way it really works is the UN asks actual countries to provide soldiers for these missions. So which countries do you think are going to send their soldiers to fucking Gaza based on a promise by Hamas not to attack them?
And UN observers don't fight wars. They just report to both parties of the ceasefire the activities of the other. If either side takes military action the observers leave. Hamas fires rockets at Israel every week. Just that the Iron Dome takes them out and you don't hear about it. But if you're the leader of a country are you going to send your soldiers somewhere there will constantly be rockets flying over them with the potential that if the Iron Dome might clip on and divert it into your soldiers?
If my memory isn't failing: then Israel will bomb some apartments, raid and beat some holy sites, eventually call a ceasefire before all the civilians die from lack of food, water, and power, then build more checkpoints and fenced off areas, and finally we'll be right back here again in a few years until there are no more Palestinians.
So to answer your question, yes. If it weren't for the UN I really truly believe Israel would just commit genocide.
You've obviously consumed a lot of internet propaganda originating from Iran.
Israel's intent were actually genocide they could simply drop a nuke on Gaza and there would be nothing the UN could do to stop it. They don't do that because their intent isn't on genocide.
Also the UN cannot be in Israel without the consent of Israel. Nations have ultimate sovereignty over their territory there is nothing about the UN that supersedes national sovereignty. Seems you've also fallen prey to the "black helicopter" UN conspiracy theories, just you think UN black helicopters are a good thing. The reality is they don't exist, UN peacekeepers are only where they are because nations have agreed to their presence to observe the other party of a treaty (and will allow themselves to be likewise observed) to ensure they are complying.
You should take some time to learn about how things work in the world instead of just believing everything you read on social media. The can provide tools that nations can use to facilitate peace, but the nations themselves decide whether to use those tools.
Israel
Literally sent
Netanyahu
To Court
Over This
What the hell kind of Iranian Propoganda originates in the courts of Israel?! He was literally removed from power because of the corruption trials.
Israel sends Netanyahu to court over many things. He's a really crooked dude. So you're gonna have to narrow down which specific case you're going on about.
LMAO
Is your account shared? Because 5 hours ago you were saying his overt corruption was Iranian Propoganda.
Didn't know I had a fan monitoring my posts.
Fuck islamist terrorism. Fuck Hamas.
I agree, but also fuck apartheid and fuck Israel
Fuck them both basically, but for different reasons.
I find the timing of this suspicious, given there's rumours the negotiations between the US and SA are in their final stages.
If SA is about to throw Palestine under the bus, as is rumoured, that could explain the timing.
You're on point, Hezbollah released a statement backing up that claim, a warning for "normalization".
But how would this attack do anything to discourage Saudi Arabia from signing that treaty?
It wouldn't. That's the point. Having Hamas do that seems like a perfect excuse to throw palestine under the bus. Which they would do with the agreement, anyhow. Now they have a reason.
Ah, I see what you mean, but I don't think I agree. There's no relevant party that is opposed to this attack, opposed to the treaty, and important enough to justify the risk of getting caught.
Iran trying to get the first move advantage in what they'd deam the inevitable opening of yet another proxy war with KSA
How can Hamas even think they have an iota of a chance against a military power like Israel?
It makes no sense.
It makes sense, but not the way you think. They know they are going to lose. They know they are going to suffer greater retaliation. But they will have to endure it. And they know many of them will die because of it. They were ready to face the consequences.
I don't think this campaign is against the Israeli government. It's a strategic move targeted towards the illegal Israeli settlers and those who dare to encroach into the disputed Palestinian land! - to instill traumatic fear. It's a warning message to these people, even though the have the best military and the best surveillance techs, the government can't protect them. A stern message to them: If you dare to take this land from us, one day we will come to take it back from you, even your life, at the time you least expected and every efforts you put before will be in vain.
You're forgetting the key aspect -- they want Israel to attack. These are hardcore committed militants. They want to kill their enemies or die trying. They want other people to feel the same way, but too many Palestinians are just trying to live their lives and survive day-to-day.
By attacking Israel, they know they're going to prompt a vicious counter attack that will kill and maim a lot of Palestinians. That's good from the point of view of the Palestinian militants. More people who lose their loved ones to Israeli attacks means more angry people wanting to lash out. That means more of them will hate Israel even more, and be even more willing to risk their lives to try to destroy Israel.
It's also a gift to Netanyahu and the right-wingers in Israel. They want the Israeli population to be scared and angry, because when they're scared and angry they support the right-wingers. This instantly solves all the political and legal problems that Netanyahu had.
This is the same strategy that Osama bin Laden used with the Sept. 11th terrorist attacks, and it worked perfectly. He knew that the US would flip out and overreact and kill hundreds of thousands of people as a result. He hoped they'd attack Saudi Arabia because his biggest conflict was not with the US, but with the government there. Instead the US attacked Iraq and Afghanistan, but that was almost as good. It drove recruitment for al Qaeda, and later for the Islamic State.
Not surprisingly, I do agree with your perspective: They want Israeli to attack. They want to
chancechange the status quo.When you say 'many Palestinians', I would say those are the ones who live in the West Bank, controlled by Fatah. Fatah made acceptable deals with Israeli, and somenow their live are getting better, more survivable. But Hamas doesnt agree with these deals. They have a very narrow mindset which is: No deals with the Israel, period. And the people of Gaza supported this POV and they elected Hamas in the first place, which means they are ready to suffer the consequences when giving the support.
Palestinians are divided into two fractions. In some ways, the attack could be an attempt to reunite and change it back to one.
Hmm, I've heard that before, with slightly different phrasing: "we don't negotiate with terrorists".
It seems like a good view.
Except that these attacks weren't against the settlers (who are taking land in the west bank), it's targeting the civilians in South Israel who have lived there for ages. I think the world was expecting to see this violence in the west bank, not gaza.
I could be wrong on that. I stand corrected if that's the case.
Yes, but it's best to attack where it is least expected. Other than that, it's open to discussion/speculation. Whatever it is, it is a very well thought and executed plan where they expect great retaliation. One thing, The Hamas don't trust Fatah, and some pro-Palestin Muslim even regard Fatah as traitor. Maybe the Saudi-Israel normalisation plan got something to do with it? Maybe someone can give their input on these.
I check Ofakim, one of the affected area.
You're right on that. They population has been there since the 50s.
Not for ages. Only since the country was split into two with no regard for actual Palestinian input on this. There's been less than 100 years since then. Not enough time to heal, especially when nothing was done to make things right. It's like telling black people in the US in 1700 "it's been ages since you've been brought here on a boat, just let it go, this is the way things are now". Very much fuck you & no.
It seems like a very clear message by Hamas: if you moved into my house by force, you are not a civilian. Get out of my house.
It still makes no sense to me from that perspective. Shouldn't they, of all people, understand that trying to frighten people into submission can instead embolden them? Israel's brutal actions against Palestinians didn't crumble Hamas. It created more support for it.
What do they think will happen now? They've attacked and kidnapped civilians. Even people sympathetic to the Palestinians plight are horrified at this.
All Hamas has done here is turn more of the world against them, brutalized civilians, and actually given Israel partial justification for their response. This is the first time in my adult life that I've seen such violence against Israel.
People can only take so much. It's part of the bully play book. Push them until they break and then blame them for everything.
The only options are be genocided or be genocided quicker if there's no fear of retaliation. They're choosing to go out on their own terms.
Hamas sets up military operations in a civilian building by force - the civilians have no say in this and get killed if they protest Hamas then uses that building to launch rockets, store ammunition, communication stations How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites? Because what they do is:
“Roof knocking”: Hitting the building’s roof with a small explosive to announce that it will fall in 15 minutes (see video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY example from yesterday) Automatic SMS and phone calls impacted areas warning and urging to evacuate Precision strikes that make the building fall vertically with minimal damage to the areas As a result, civilians (and potentially military personnel) are given a chance to evacuate while ammunition stashes, rocket launching stations etc stay in the building and are destroyed.
To be honest, I’m shocked those protocols are still used after Hamas’s attack. I would absolutely not be surprised of these measures stopped.
The anti-Israel don’t care that Israel is bending over backwards to minimize human suffering while fighting a decades long war against people who are deliberately trying to kill their children.
Remember how upset they are when Israel does something 100 percent defensive, like build a security fence to keep out an endless stream of suicide bombers?
This isn’t good-faith criticism.
These people hate Israel for this that they works be applauding other countries for. And we all know why
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Sure, until Israel overreacts and starts a war that kills tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians. Then people's sympathies will go back to the underdog in the fight, which is the Palestinians.
Yay…?
A combination of this and a religion that brainwashed them into thinking that if they die while trying to murder other people that they will go to paradise and have a bunch of little girls as wives.
Man you've got a real hard on for Hamas.
We are trying to analyze and make sense of the situation, and all you can add to the discussion is by attacking me ad hominem? Thanks.
You're so welcome buddy
that's the spirit. have a nice day.
I don't think there's any arguing with the stone cold fact that Israel has killed more civilians than Hamas.
I never argued that.
A victim of bullying will eventually lash out whether or not they think they have a chance because they become desperate.
Are they a victim of bullying when their official policy is the destruction of their neighbors culture?
They are a victim of bullying when they've been under decades of illegal occupation. Hamas is an awful organization, but it was only formed as a result of ongoing brutal oppression. When you keep punching someone in the face, sooner or later they'll start punching back, and sometimes they'll fight dirty. That doesn't make them good, but the bully is still the one who kicked things off in the first place and the one who should be first and foremost held responsible for the situation they created.
Hamas individual victims get my full sympathy; they're victims of both Hamas and Israel. Israel as a state does not - without their brutal oppression, extensive war crimes, and apartheid regime, there wouldn't be any Hamas in the first place.
What if the bully went up to someone and said "I'm going to fucking kill you" and then tried to kill them using all means possible all because the bully and the other person exist in the same area? Only Palestine and Hamas before now were the ones saying the Jews deserved death AND acted upon it multiple times. I had sympathy for their plight until they indiscriminately killed people who had zero interaction with their problems. I'm sure those thai workers and rave tourists, massacred, raped, killed and kidnapped has a lot to do with the fucking situation between Israel and Hamas/Palestine. Israel isn't clean, but in 1 day and 1 act became the cleaner of the 2 in non Arab public perception.
This sentence alone shows your complete and utter lack of understanding of the situation and the history that has led to it.
Jewish population in 1917 was 8%, but 1936 that was 28%. In 1948, during the Nakba, it jumped from 32% to 82%. Palestinians were the indigenous people of Palestine until the Zionist movement INTENTIONALLY AND SYSTEMATICALLY took over, killed, burnt down, and destroyed not only men women and children, but every facet of Palestinian culture they could.
They shut Palestine out of negotiations and diplomatic channels, and ran straight-up propaganda campaigns in America to convince numbskulls like you who believe the slant they hear on Fox news about how Hamas are just terrorists.
Hamas actually attempted to be a legitimate government that played by the rules, as did the PLO. They were backstabbed, lied to, led on, and ignored by US, UN, Israel, Britain, etc.
You can have sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian people while condemning actions taken by militants. Nuance is possible here.
And yet the Palestinian population grows each year.
Wow it's almost as if Palestinians want to return to their fucking homes that they were forced out of, Jesus what a shocker, zomg
Nice "whatabout", but the bully here is the party that engaged in an illegal occupation, the crime of apartheid, and extensive war crimes (annexation through settlement of occupied territory) in the first place. That you try to redefine away the fact that Israel created this situation in the first place borders on apartheid-apologism. It's exactly the same tactic used by supporters of South African apartheid to dismiss the situation in South Africa whenever the ANC carried out a violent operation, and it was apologism for oppression then, and it is apologism for oppression now.
Nah fam, if you want to play that game Arabs invaded Jewish communities that had settled there during the muslim conquests, that's over 2,000 years of illegal occupation. If you're fine with that, you should be fine with Israel taking back their land at the "edge of a sword".
Also it's funny to hear you say killing innocent people not involved with the conflict is "apartheid apology"
That "game" of which you speak is an appeal to privilege in its most obscene form: claiming an ancestral myth that allows you to impact extreme violence against other humans whose only crime is being born into the wrong bloodline.
It's 2023 CE out here but some cultures are pretending it's 2023 BCE
Only one party is currently illegally occupying land they have legal claim to and engaging in the crime of apartheid. Only one party is engaged in fighting against an illegal occupier. That you choose to argue in favour of the apartheid regime engaged in an illegal occupation says enough.
Do they have a legal claim to it? If they stole the land it shouldn't matter how long ago it was right? That's the Palestinian logic I'm seeing.
Who? Israel? No, they do not have a legal claim to the occupied areas, or they wouldn't be occupied. Both irrespective of the occupation, the crime of Apartheid is a crime against humanity under the Rome statute.
The Israeli Supreme Court has ever since 1967 consistently accepted the Israeli government's own contention that the territories are occupied, and not part of Israel proper, because if they were part of Israel, then Palestinians affected by Israeli oppression would have far stronger legal claims.
So if you want to argue that the occupied territories belong to Israel, you're arguing against the position of both Israel the state and the Israeli Supreme Court.
See "The law of belligerent occupation in the Supreme Court of Israel", David Kretzmer, Professor Emeritus of International Law at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, published in the International Review of the Red Cross, 2012
I'm simply applying the logic the Palestinians apply. There were ruins of a 2000 year old Jewish temple and a 1500 year old mosque in the region. Guess which one is older. I'd also feel more empathy for the apartheid conditions if Palestinians would stop electing a political group who's stated goals are the deaths of every Jewish person. And as I said it's comical you keep saying I support apartheid policies by simply stating killing, raping, torturing, kidnapping, and forcing innocent people to be used as human shields is fucking wrong and deplorable no matter what side does it. If Ukraine starts liquidating Russian cities and raping, torturing, kidnapping, and using innocent's as human shields I'd say the same fucking thing to them and pull my support. If this is how Palestine wants to do things I shed no tears as they are destroyed. "By any means" works both ways.
This might be relevant if it was a Palestinian state imposing apartheid on Israel. If so, they would be equally worthy of condemnation irrespective of who had which historical claim to what land.
But they are not, so bringing it up is yet another attempt at victim-blaming.
Had Israel stopped at a point of doing the bare minimum to secure its legally recognized borders, or indeed the borders they themselves recognize, and attempted to avoid oppressing innocent civilians for decades, there'd likely still be conflicts, but then Israel would have something of a moral leg to stand on. They have not. They do not. As it is, they are occupiers, as recognized by their own government and their own courts.
Hamas didn't even exist until a couple of decades into the oppression. It was formed as a result of the failure of PLO to get Israel to the table, so this is blaming the victims again for responding to decades of Israeli unwillingness to end their oppression.
Also, notice how in contrast to your repeated talk of the Palestinians as a unified group while assigning blame, not once have I tried to blame the Israeli people as a whole for Israel's actions, despite the fact that a majority of them have elected governments in every single election for the entire existence of their state that have continued a policy of illegal occupations and apartheid?
I stand by that. Just like the Palestinian people as a whole can not be judged for the actions of Hamas, neither can the Israeli people as a whole be judged for the actions of the Israeli state.
Are you going to do the same, or are you going continue to assign collective blame to people including the millions on either side who have no power whatsoever to influence the actions of any of the belligerent parties and/or who oppose them? Including the millions in the West Bank who are largely cut off from even being able to intervene in what goes on in Gaza due to Israeli apartheid policies beyond the control of Palestinians in the West Bank.
When you criticise only specific and limited outcomes of the oppression rather than the oppression itself, then, yes, it's natural to presume you're fine with the oppression. Notice how even here you only express opposition to the killing of innocents, and not against the imposition of apartheid or the illegal occupation that created the conditions for it over multiple generations.
If your support for opposition to oppression is contingent on the oppressed doing no wrong, then you're really just looking for any excuse to side with the oppressors.
My support for the Ukranian people, as for the Palestinian people is unconditional. That does not mean I support every action made on their behalf. I do not. That does not mean there aren't actions I find deplorable. It does not mean I don't sympathise with innocent victims.
It does mean that in an asymmetric fight the oppressor is the only side that has the choice of ending the oppression, and until they do they have no moral standing to complain when some of their victims lash out in desperation - the oppressor is ultimately always the culpable party for every consequence of their oppression.
Anything else is to create an incentive for oppressors to be extra brutal in order to provoke an extreme response, knowing that if they do, they'll have people like you ready to dismiss the plight of the entire oppressed population because some of them were pushed into a level of desperation where they've gone too far.
When you say 'destroying their neighbors culture' - are you talking about Israel or Palestine?
Clearly Palestine. They're the ones with a government they elected that literally put "destroy all Jews" in their founding charter.
Well, Israel was actively destroying culture as well. We've all seen the videos of Palestinians being evicted from their homes by Israeli military /police.
In fact Id say thats way worse than words on paper. Systemic actions to destroy
Why leave out the fact that the Jews also have an equally legitimate claim on the land, in addition to having been taken close to the brink of total extermination by circumstances completely beyond their control? A normal, compassionate individual would welcome these people in, make room for them, and live at peace under a stable society, tolerant of different points of view. However, that is not what the Jews encountered upon the creation of Israel. It was just a continuation of the campaign to exterminate them, from a different group. Are you going to argue that it’s bad for Germans to murder Jews, but it is okay for Muslims?
Firstly, see “The law of belligerent occupation in the Supreme Court of Israel”, David Kretzmer, Professor Emeritus of International Law at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, published in the International Review of the Red Cross, 2012:
Not even the Israeli government or the Israeli Supreme Court agree with you that Israel has a legitimate claim to the territories beyond their internationally recognised borders. Maybe somebody here is talking about the entirety of Israel, but I am not, nor have I ever. If Israel were to withdraw to their borders, and Palestinian attacks still continue, then there'd be at least room for discussion of blame.
Until then, as long as Israel itself legally recognizes that it is an occupying power, there is none.
Secondly, people's experience of being oppressed does not recognize law. Irrespective of who has ownership of what, Israel is engaged in treating Gaza in particular as an Apartheid-style bantustan, and is committing crimes against humanity by doing so.
Whether or not you agree with the legal position on that, when someone places people in those conditions, then it is entirely on them when they hit back.
Blaming people for resisting gross abuse because you don't like how they do it when you've put them in a situation where they have no realistic opportunity to fight clean is victim-blaming.
Nice try. I've not argued it is okay for anyone. I've argued in some threads that unless you've provided a better alternative (and not suggested it; actually tried to make it come to pass), then like the rest of us you're not in a moral position to judge people for taking desperate steps to try to fight back.
That doesn't mean not feeling for the victims, because they had no power to end this either. It doesn't mean not thinking it's a horrible situation. It doesn't mean you can't get angry. It means resisting the urge to assign the blame to a people the vast majority of whom have been born into effective bondage under an apartheid regime for taking desperate and irrational actions to try to end a gross abuse they have no realistic power to change.
They are desperate, frustrated, angry... They are human.
Neutrally looked at, a couple of french farmers and craftmen had no chance against the french military of 1789. But they where pushed to a point where they believed doing nothing is worse than dying trying. By chance they actually stormed the Bastille and kickstarzed a very dark chapter in french history.
It's not like the position of the people of Gaza is going to improve...
Exactly. The same thing happened before again and again. The result was always the same. Death and misery for the people in Gaza.
The whole region needs to be put under supervision by an international committee and bring Israel's borders back to its original limits and give back the right to the people of Gaza and West Bank the right to their own land and allow them to exchange with other nations.
Which the Arabs voted against in the first place. They never wanted a Jewish state there and their rhetoric would suggest they still don't. The only difference is now there is one, and there has been for most of a century.
They're genocidal lunatics covering their hatred in colors of justice and victimhood
They don't care about an actual chance, they just follow the directions their masters in tehran give them because they'll happily make themselves dogs if it means they get to go full turner diaries wet dream mode.
They are targeting civilians not the military. They want to cause so much pain and suffering the Israeli people will push their govt to cede demands of Hamas to stop the fighting, or emmigrate somewhere else
They have been pushed into a corner and kept on getting squeezed, so probably feel they have no other options (and might very well be right in light of what has happenned in the last decade).
Had Israel stopped expanding "colonates" and taking palestinian land, I doubt the likes of Hamas would have the internal support and manpower to do what they just did, but over the last several decades Bibi and his predecessors have been just dubbling down and announcing ever more anexation of land.
The massive difference in military power is also probably the reason for the kidnappings: I suspect it's a "strategy" to try and get the Israeli authorities to not just bomb the whole of Gaza.
Whilst I disagree with their methods I can see how over 70 years, given the trend in israeli politics and the lack of genuine and effective pushback from the international community against appartheid in Israel and the occupation, so many Palestineans have come to believe they have no other options than this kind of thing and personally I actually see no other option (even this they're doing now is not really an option, more like a lashing out of the desperate).
It is clearly impossible to solve this from the inside (to much hate by now, too many assholes on both side whose power rests in the assholes from the other side killing people), which is why I think the US' and Europe's treatement of Israel as if it's a Developed, Democratic, Western nation, all the while it's more akin to a Theocratic South Africa with a Russia-style leadership, is probably to blame more for this than anybody else (and I say this as an European) - they were the only ones who could have forced a peaceful resolution to this (rather than just mild criticism and no action, which is all that Europe did) by doing the same they did to South Africa, but instead they did nothing at all, effectivelly endorsing the choices of the Israeli leadership and totally disenfranchising the Palestinians, prolonging this cycle - want to see who has the most blood in their hands on this, go look in the White House, Number 10, Deutsche Kanselarie and the Palace Du Eliseé.
It's a shame because western countries were starting to recognize the apartheid situation in Israel and were starting to criticize it. I think had things gone a bit longer there would have been an intervention.
In any case, this whole thing is just sad. So many innocent lives are destroyed on both sides. And I sincerely think Israel, their government and the Jewish extremists are the root cause.
Hamas sets up military operations in a civilian building by force - the civilians have no say in this and get killed if they protest Hamas then uses that building to launch rockets, store ammunition, communication stations How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites? Because what they do is:
“Roof knocking”: Hitting the building’s roof with a small explosive to announce that it will fall in 15 minutes (see video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY example from yesterday) Automatic SMS and phone calls impacted areas warning and urging to evacuate Precision strikes that make the building fall vertically with minimal damage to the areas As a result, civilians (and potentially military personnel) are given a chance to evacuate while ammunition stashes, rocket launching stations etc stay in the building and are destroyed.
To be honest, I’m shocked those protocols are still used after Hamas’s attack. I would absolutely not be surprised of these measures stopped.
The anti-Israel don’t care that Israel is bending over backwards to minimize human suffering while fighting a decades long war against people who are deliberately trying to kill their children.
Remember how upset they are when Israel does something 100 percent defensive, like build a security fence to keep out an endless stream of suicide bombers?
This isn’t good-faith criticism.
These people hate Israel for this that they works be applauding other countries for. And we all know why
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Well Hamas managed to kill hundreds of Jews in one sweep, for instance.
Ukraine: Hey guys! What are we talking about?
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
Yeah poor Hamas, he had no choice but to murder civilians
Hamas sets up military operations in a civilian building by force - the civilians have no say in this and get killed if they protest Hamas then uses that building to launch rockets, store ammunition, communication stations How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites? Because what they do is:
“Roof knocking”: Hitting the building’s roof with a small explosive to announce that it will fall in 15 minutes (see video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY example from yesterday) Automatic SMS and phone calls impacted areas warning and urging to evacuate Precision strikes that make the building fall vertically with minimal damage to the areas As a result, civilians (and potentially military personnel) are given a chance to evacuate while ammunition stashes, rocket launching stations etc stay in the building and are destroyed.
To be honest, I’m shocked those protocols are still used after Hamas’s attack. I would absolutely not be surprised of these measures stopped.
The anti-Israel don’t care that Israel is bending over backwards to minimize human suffering while fighting a decades long war against people who are deliberately trying to kill their children.
Remember how upset they are when Israel does something 100 percent defensive, like build a security fence to keep out an endless stream of suicide bombers?
This isn’t good-faith criticism.
These people hate Israel for this that they works be applauding other countries for. And we all know why
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
It's a violent revolution to extinction. All the more political capital for the Netanyahu government to rapidly encroach.
This feels way too convenient for Netanyahu.
Nor really. A large part of Natenyahu's platform is security. "Keep me in power and I will protect you". He has failed in this spectacularly, and Mossads reputation will take a very significant hit. Hamas has made them look incompetent. Of course he will use this to demand more authority, but overall it is bad for him.
FYI: The Palestinian areas are the Shin Beths and to a lesser degree Amanns responsibility. Mossad is for foreign nations.
Point taken.
Somewhat, but it also undermines his "Mr. Security" image...a lot. He will assuredly blame it on the left, but when he's running against former military brass, rings hollow. Also really pulls the rug out from under his various peace accords
Are we supposed to believe Israeli intelligence missed this?
deleted by creator
Well that’s not gonna be good for anybody
It's a gift to the Yahoo.
not the sort of thing that's good to wake up to. very sad
Israel has the iron dome to prevent something like this from happening, right? So why does the attack work this time?
It’s not perfect and especially a huge amount of rockets can overwhelm it. Also it’s much more effective on slower homemade rockets, not the faster kind Iran typically sells Hamas.
... Well, this isn't going to end well.
Keyword is "typically". Iran has been sending rockets to Hamas for decades.
And Iran, Iran so far away
OP's headline isn't great, the rockets were only one part of todays events
source
ETA: there's the added factor that it's Saturday and a religious holiday so more people would have been asleep at home at that time, or on their way to pray/celebrate/party.
Saturation attacks are a common tactic to overwhelm air defense zones, but this isn't just that. Hamas and IJ fighters have begun ethnically cleansing border towns, literally gunning down shelters full of civilians, as well as parading the naked bodies of women they've raped and murdered, through the streets.
This is only a fraction of the attacks, and all on video btw, but I don't suggest watching them.
What are IJ fighters? Civilians from which side?
Islamic Jihad. It's a relatively newer militant faction. All, or most, of the recent IDF military incursions into Gaza lately have been targeting their leadership and fighters.
Could you source that?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/07/naked-israeli-woman-paraded-jeering-hamas-fighters/
2 minutes on duckduckgo. Plenty of other horrible stories as well.
No, but only because I don't want to have to look at them again. Go on Twitter, or any combat footage forum/sub, and they'll be there.
There is no shortage of videos of both slain IDF (It's war, so that legitimate), and terrorists attacks on civilians. I'm sure there are hundreds more clips uploaded since I stopped looking at the discussions.
I saw one completely out of context today and the person didn't provide a source even when asked. So I ask you again, can you source these?
I don't care if you don't believe me, but if you took even 2 minutes of your own time searching Twitter, Reddit, or Funker, you'd see all of that, and a lot more. I'm good on watching any of those videos ever again.
They're literally being spammed across all of those feeds, so knock yourself out.
Edit: After looking at your post history, I now understand that you're afraid of even spending 2 minutes searching for the videos of these specific acts of terrorism/ war crimes: because it would directly conflict with your worldview.
What is Funker?
Edit: yeah, I did DuckDuckGo'd it in both English and Arabic when I first saw it. Accessing Twitter isn't exactly easy now. The only place I saw it on was reddit with no source. Chances are it was too early before the Telegraph or whoever wrote on it. So, I'm so fucking sorry for asking you to cite yourself when you are on the internet.
Hmmm, I wanted to ask, when you went through my profile, did you see all those comments about me not agreeing with Hamas, in between all the tech joke comments? Or did you just get a glimpse of me being Palestinian and threw your arms up and were like, of course this terrible person wants a source for this piece of information I claimed, it's because they hate Israel!
Like seriously, could you describe your process? The video of this woman personally horrified me this morning on Reddit like I said. No source, no one writing about it, long before any news of it hit. I wanted to know who she was and what on earth had happened wrong and why she is there and whether she's alive or not and how she is involved (or not). I already dislike Hamas, they drag 'traitors' around on MCs. They aren't exactly doing god's work. So which part of me asking for a source led you to believe I'm somehow okay with this or unable to watch this because it will change my world view. What world view exactly?
I think it's lame to think that people asking for a source somehow are ready to pound on you and disagree.
These videos are powerful and they can be powerful in the wrong way if used as disinformation and aren't relative to the current thing at hand. That's why I asked for a source.
Also listing Hamas' crimes does not in any way justify Israel's actions that they take against civilians. Vice versa.
If one day someone comes to your house, the one you were born, the same house where your father was born, and his father before him. And starts killing, raping, torturing, executing, bulldozing the houses were your cousins lives, they don't let you go to your sacred places, they don't let you even move from the concentration camps and the walls they have erected.
What would you do? You fight, even if you lose you will fight, even if the world sees the injustice but simply doesn't care, you will still fight, for them you are a terrorist, but for your people you are a freedom fighter, fighting against invaders.
I would agree with this, except that afaik both groups have a legitimate historical/religious claim to the territory. Additionally, you're basically saying that Hamas is justified in slaughtering hundreds of unarmed people. I was sympathetic until they made the Las Vegas shooting look like a minor scuffle.
Seriously, I can sympathize with the frustration up to the point where suddenly murdering civilians is ok when "the good guys" are doing it.
Material conditions my ass, if it's wrong for one it's wrong for all.
And before any Hamaboos show their asses,
انا امريكاني فالاسطيني، جدي كن من بيتلحم،
My kin are not your shield for endorsing the same acts you hold up to demonize those you hate you Bougeyevik hypocrites.
The fact the Israel state contribute to the creation of those monsters, you can't expect the hate to just disappear.
I'm sorry to say, but this is how guerilla warfare goes. Sometimes civilians are casualties.
Did those civilians do anything to deserve it? Usually no. In this case though, they did. Some were already there, and they were responsible for starting the civil war by accepting to split the country. Others weren't there, but came after that - trampling on another country's ashes and disregarding its original citizens.
What are you going to do when civilians move into your home and declare it is theirs? Consider them civilians? Consider them innocents?
I would not beat, rape, and murder innocent people. That seems like a low bar to clear, right? Attacking military targets and personnel might be morally justified, but certainly not what they did over the weekend.
How many of the "terrorists" (the Islamic ones, not the Judaic ones) were actually from the oppressed populations, though? There are a lottttttt of people in that region that hate the Israeli government...Not sure how many of the displaced peoples you're telling "this isn't the right way to avenge violent state oppression" are actually participating in the fighting.
He didn't tell any of the non participants any such thing... His statement obviously refers to those commiting the acts, not generalized to everyone.
That perspective does not excuse Israel's behavior or blame any victim of Israel's injustice, it simply points out the attacks are terroristic (meaning targeting civilians). Terrorists often have sympathetic reasons, but go about it in a way that is wrong.
Point taken, thanks for taking the time to lay it out.
Oh please thats an absurd hot take.
Nah, man. If they cited all those things, or more importantly the complete stifling of Gazans' ability to prosper or flourish today, that would be one thing. What did they cite instead? The desecration of the Al-Aqsa mosque. That is more important to them than the apartheid. Fuck Hamas. They're accomplishing nothing more than the death of Palestinians and more suffering. And they just empowered the most right wing, unpopular government that Israel's ever had, one that Israelis were divided against. Hamas and the Iranian regime need to be eradicated. They are hurting any chance at Palestinian freedom and equality and right to prosperity. And they're just causing more and more every day normal Israeli/Jewish and Palestinian suffering. This Iranian regime supports the tyranny of the Syrian government over the Sunnis (and its use of chemical weapons against them), Russia's terrorist attacks on civilians in Ukraine and the invasion of that country in general, the complete undermining of the Lebanese government by Hezbollah, and the complete overthrow of the Yemeni government by a similarly tyrannical group in Yemen. And it uses of rape and sexual violence and murder against men and women protesting the death of a woman caused by the morality police and the oppression of women by the regime.
I think the only way to accomplish either a true one state democratic nation that honors Israel-Palestine as the home of Judaism or a two state solution, is boycott and divestment (because there is no way to peacefully protest and engage in civil obedience to achieve freedom and equality (they murdered a journalist and nothing came of it) and there's no way to win militarily). It worked with the apartheid government in South Africa, and hopefully it will work with Israel.
If the "fighting" means doing the exact same crimes to other innocents that is not making you the good guys.
Israel is doing a genocide. Palestinians fighting back are absolutely not doing the same crimes.
Hamas are absolutely headbanging murderous zealots committing a lot of atrocities right now. But if you herd people up, deprive them of basic liberties, brutalize & kill a bunch of them, and steal their land at gunpoint and then you can hardly act all shocked that a bunch of them are radicalized and go on a rampage. Doesn't matter if we're talking what Israel has done to Palestinians or what the United States did to Native Americans. Maybe the lesson to learn here, is don't do those things. But I expect that Israel will pound Gaza committing its own atrocities as payback and the same thing will happen again in another decade.
Why leave out the fact that the Jews also have an equally legitimate claim on the land, in addition to having been taken close to the brink of total extermination by circumstances completely beyond their control? A normal, compassionate individual would welcome these people in, make room for them, and live at peace under a stable society, tolerant of different points of view. However, that is not what the Jews encountered upon the creation of Israel. It was just a continuation of the campaign to exterminate them, from a different group. Are you going to argue that it's bad for Germans to murder Jews, but it is okay for Muslims?
The Israel state was created thanks to the influence of wealthy Jews.
Until your guest started asking for more land, more control, and ultimately doesn't want yo share with you but wants the things you have.
The Jewish people who were brought to Palestine in the 40s were not being exterminated by the Palestinians. The Jewish people illegally collected guns while they were there and forced the Palestinians out of their homes and their country.
If you go a little further back in history you'll discover some pretty heavy historical claims to the land by the Jewish people. Just to be clear, I consider "historical claim" to be the most bullshit geopolitical argument in existence. I'm merely pointing out the fallacy in claiming Palestinians have claim, but Jews do not. Palestine wasn't even a country until it was established when Israel was established. It was just a bunch of nomads moving between various borders.
Just curious, if some fascists came to your house citing historical claims to your land, how much would you care about the validity of that claim? How about when they burn your house down, kill your family, and arrest you for objecting? I truly, deeply would not give a flying fuck who lived nearby my house 300 years ago.
Have you asked the Jews that question? You might discover why they keep fighting over the land.
How much further back is a "little further"? My grandmother was one of the people who fled in 1948. The place her grandparents also lived. You're talking about what 300 years ago? 400? More? Forgive me if I care very little about a claim to a land that is older than Shakespeare.
I don't care about a "historical claim" I care about the people who were living in the land and were forcebly ousted in a time frame where the people who were originally ousted are still alive.
Also they were not "nomads" you fuckin racist. My great grandparents had land, a home, a community that were all taken from them.
You're making an arbitrary claim as though it's objective. Why is displacement in 1948 justification for historical claim, but expulsion in 1917 not? Beginning 1914 during WW1, many Jews were expelled from Palestine by the Ottoman authorities as enemy nationals, since they had immigrated from countries now at war with the Ottoman Empire. In 1917, the Ottoman authorities carried out the Tel Aviv and Jaffa deportation, expelling the entire Jewish civilian populations of Tel Aviv and Jaffa. Many deportees subsequently died from hunger and disease. Surely those Jews have just as much claim to live in Israel as the Palestinians displaced by the 1947 UN partition plan.
The 1914 deportations were of Russian Jewish people. If any Russians claim they have rights to the land then sure, I'll buy that, but I don't care for one's religion and I don't believe the Jewish people who were brought to Palestine in the 40s were of Russian descent.
Only 1/3 of the population that was deported in 1917 were Jewish. The rest were Muslims and Christians and had nothing to do with religion. Under British rule all the people deported in 1917 were allowed to return. So they got their claim when they were allowed to return, it really is unfortunate how many died due to the conditions they were sent into, and I'm not defending the actions of any State.
Russians being deported and people who were allowed to return makes those claims barely anything compared to the Palestinians who were ousted multiple times in the last 100 years and not allowed to return, with the ones remaining living in apartheid.
This sounds like you're defending ethnic deportation. It doesn't matter which passport the Jews held. They were expelled.
I am clearly and specifically talking about the Jews, not the Muslims or Christians.
But they were not given their land and houses back. They were displaced, just like some Palestinians in 1948.
I'm struggling to believe you could argue the ways the Jews were treated is better. If anything, it was much worse. The Palestinians have never been wholesale deported, only displaced within the same nation.
I'm only pointing out that the deportation had nothing to do with their Jewish heritage.
And I'm clearly and specifically pointing out that it had nothing to do with them being Jewish so it is very different from what was done to the Palestinians which was targeted at them.
Just like the Palestinians were displaced in the late 1800s by the Ottoman empire selling the land they lived on to Jewish people.
Half the Palestinians living there were forced to flee their homes in 1948. I'm clearly not arguing with someone who lives in reality as evidenced by this line
If by some you mean 700k compared to the 10k total displaced in 1917 (of which only 1/3 were Jewish) the sure I guess more than 70 times can be considered some, but at that point words mean nothing and there is no point in continuing this discussion.
I'm sure it's as straightforward as you make it to be.
It is. You really don't think so?
It's not. History never is and it'd be worth understanding how we got to this place.
The Ottoman Land Code of 1858 is a good place to start. Essentially much of Palestine was misappropriated to Ottoman bureaucrats and the Ottoman state. The Jewish National Fund purchased portions of this land and leased it to Jewish settlers who kicked the Arabs out with the cooperation of their Ottoman landlords. Legal, but unjust, and I have to imagine most of the Jewish settlers were as ignorant as the Arabs were to the fact that their land had been sold out from under them.
As a side note, if you want to spot the Press that are at least trying to be neutral, you can see how they refere to the Hamas people that inflitrated Israel:
They are terrorists. That's literally what they are. The fact that attacked an evil fascist state's city doesn't change that.
I'm happy that everybody who kills people to terrify the rest into doing what they want are consistently called terrorists.
So both Hamas and the Israeli state.
As actual and clear acts of "killing people to terrify the rest do what they want", like bombing of hospitals, murdering of journalists and killing children throwing stones at the armored bulldozers razing their homes, all commited by one side, have consistently never been described as "terrorism" (even though they match the definition), it's a pretty good indication of the bias by a media outlet when they now describe the entirety of the military incursion from one side and all its participants as "terrorism" even though they refrained to call actual acts of "killing people to terrify the rest do what they want" from the other side as "acts of terror" and those who executed them as "terrorists".
The unbiased thing to do is to consistently describe all "attacks meant to incite terror for the purposed of making the rest do what you want" (such as Hamas' terrorists murdering people at a dance party, and Iraeli Army terrorists bombing hospitals and executing journalists and children) as "terror attacks" and those who executed them as "terrorists".
Israel can't be called terrorism because terrorism must be—by definition—unlawful
Emphasis mine.
As Israel did their deeds outside internationally recognized Israeli territory - so outside the internationally recognized jurisdiction of their courts - hence were Israeli Law does not apply.
So those deeds were unlawful (no matter how much Israeli Law is rigged to say otherwise), and even by that twisted definition you selected of "terrorism" that defines it so that state-sponsered terror attacks on a nation's own soil do not count as "terrorism", Israel's military attacks on civilians anywhere outside the internationally recognized borders of Israel (so including Gaza) for the purpose of intimidating the population are still terrorism because the Law that does apply there says they're unlawful.
Wars are by definition lawful. Sorry you're wrong
It's also not a twisted definition. It's the literal dictionary definition that all countries use when defining terrorism.
And no, if war time acts were not lawful, all war is terrorism which it isn't so again you're wrong.
Sure, there is no such thing as the Geneva Convention and there are no such things as War Crimes and its all above board if the people controlling power in the country doing the deeds tell their parliamentarians to write down that "it's all legit!" in their own country's legislation.
War crimes are explicitly not terrorism by definition. If you need a basic high school education though there's hopefully a public school near you. This subject and topic is covered under civics.
What if it was a tornado? Do you still fight it to your last standing men or do you accept the fact that you can’t win?
Conflict between Israel and Palestine, color me shocked. Next you'll tell me China and Taiwan aren't the best of friends.
In other news . . . water is wet.
badly drawn maps are a major culprit. its clear many commenters are young and don't know the actual history. i'm a bit surprised by just how many pro-hamas posts ive seen. its a little disturbing. read your history. there is very little that the modern state of Israel could have done to prevent any of this. these extremists want total annihilation of israel. what can israel do against terrorists whose stated goal is to participate in a holy war which they believe is their ticket to heaven? it's an unwinnable conflict. peace talks only work if all sides actually want peace (and just disagree about how to accomplish it) every insane group of extremists across history has had to be dealt with forcefully, at some point, in some way or another, for all of human history. the japanese, germans, soviets, koreans, all needed to be dealt with, and in all cases it required overwhelming force sustained by wide coalitions over many years.
this is no different. if you are young, don't know the history, and are sitting in your room thinking there is some special concession Israel could give, that would turn this all around, its time to hit the library. The reality is that there isn't really any land in the area that would work for that. The available land that is compatible with human civilization in that part of the world, is completely full. There is no "amazon" that could be cut down to build new areas for Palestinians to live. It's a hot, arid, inhospitable part of the world, and civilization is clustered around natural rivers and mountainous locations. There's no place for anyone to go.
And then there's the ideology. Even if Israel and some broad coalition decided to invest trillions in some massive infrastructure project to make Gaza the best place in the world to live, the terrorists would still do exactly what they're doing today. The point you have to understand, is that Hamas does not care about Palestinians. Repeat that to yourself 10x and commit it to your brain forever. Islamic extremists do not care about achieving peaceful cooperation with people of other faiths and ideologies on planet earth. Nor do they even care about their own people.
People in the west are extremely soft and ignorant in some ways. They've grown up immersed in a culture of relative stability, judeo-christian ethics, etc. They have no concept that there are people out there who share none of that. They literally don't care. And the proof is all over twitter. Go watch, let it soak in.
Only a broad coalition with massive force can end this, just like every other time. otherwise its just on an endless cycle.
Yeah learn your history kids
Image
Great the fake map is making the rounds again
nothing fake about it
All the Hamaboos are showing their noble savage peddling asses right now
The attack is coming from Gaza. The settlement shit is going on in the West Bank.
This is retaliation for settlement behavior the same way WWII was retaliation for the Ruso-Japanese war.
Stop acting like y'all care about any of us as anything but favorite minorities to shut up and die in your fetishized revolutionary armageddon.
Fuckin' Bougeyevik trash, I'll bet a full 90% of y'all think chat script is just misplaced 7s 2s and 3s.
I suspect the reason Hamas has power is their ability to point at the atrocities in the West Bank and stir up hatred.
Likewise the reason the Zionist warhawks in Isreal have power is they can point out the actions by Hamas and stir up hatred.
That's a hideous feedback loop seen throughout history. It'd be great if it stopped.
My understanding is the Zionists justification for their West Bank actions would make it fair for Native Americans and Mexicans to begin evicting people and bulldozing towns throughout the US... Which I do not support. I'm betting he US would bomb Mexico and raid Native Territories if they did.
based on many of these threads here and on reddit, im starting to think that there is much more anti-semitism in the world than I thought there was. And the veil is getting much thinner.
Don't confuse criticism of the Israeli government for antisemitism. They have a history of treating Palestinians like absolute garbage, and pushing them more and more and then acting shocked when they push back.
I do not condone the attacks from Hamas on innocent people, but the Israeli government is not innocent in this.
The comments celebrating the slaughter of civilians leaves little confusion to be had.
Alwayshasbeen.meme
Only a racist would confuse a sovereign nation with a religion and hence criticism of the actions of said sovereign nation with criticism of a religion.
Anybody claiming anything in the name of all people in this World who are members of the Jewish religion (such as claiming that Israel represent all those people) is by definition a racist because they're literally implying "they're all the same": the racism of thinking of all people who are Jewish are the same (and worse, thinking you can speak for all of them) is specifically called anti-semitism.
Antisemitism is a touchstone of western culture.
Username combined with comment makes me really unsure if you’re hella antisemitic or Jewish and weary
Jewish and oh so weary. And an MGS fan.
Bullies fight
Well, now we know where at least some the weapons the idiot US government left in Afghanistan ended up. I wonder if the 6 billion dollar bribe they paid to Iran helped out.
Free Palestine.
People are dying and you're spouting slogans like an idiot.
People are always dying.
Yeah but civilized people don't celebrate it happening.
"Civilized people"... What a lovely dream.
Yes it is. If everyone shares this dream then it's a reality. But people like Hamas prevent it from being a reality.
Israel is unleashing holy hell on Gaza right now. Because paradox of tolerance states that while we tolerate many things, the evil intolerance of Hamas cannot be tolerated.
What is civilized about turning another nation into an open air prison? What is civilized about collective punishment? What is civilized about imprisonment without trial? What is civilized about turning elderly people out of their family homes, so that foreigners with no real connection to the area may live there instead? What is civilized about ignoring these things? What is civilized about funding and excusing them? Civilization is a lie we congratulate ourselves with when we don't want to look at the carnage we condone.