We're telling them they've gone too far, seeing rules... and giving them weapons. Are we giving them seasons so they listen?
And if they don't listen, doesn't this make us complicit and with exceedingly poor intensional optics?
They know that the worst that will happen is a stern warning. "Don't do that again, but it was justified. But don't do it... OK, just a little bit, but still."
The wink and the nod really spoil the effect of the stern look and strong finger wagging...
What stern looks? I'm not seeing them.
"We're telling you not to do this thing, and we assure you all we'll ever do about you still doing it is to tell you again not to do it whilst carrying on helping you to do it"
Biden: "For fuck's sake, Israel, don't do something this monumentally stupid."
No points for guessing what comes next.
Is it ethnic cleansing?
Oh boy!
"Here I go killin' again!"
That's been happening for decades and just last week they starting displacing 1MM more. So I don't think "next" is the right word.
Ethnic cleansing comes next. It also came previous, but it will come next, too.
I have 500 on anyone who evacuated the Northern area is denied re-entry and the maps change to gaslight the world into thinking Gaza was always that small.
I don't see why they'd need to occupy anything. Occupation would imply that you wanted to control that area and those people. I think Israel knows occupation would never work and wouldn't try it. They've preferred to wall-off people in enclaves, slowly squeeze all life out of those regions, and when the people they have cornered inevitably violently lash out against their own slow-motion genocide, it's time to flatten the area with bombs again. Israel calls it "mowing the grass" and I don't think a massive occupation fits with that strategy. I think they want to break the region, scatter the people, and leave it to rot, not occupy and be forced to manage it into the future indefinitely.
Turning it into the world's largest open air prison is occupation.
Biden needs to be primaried.
The democratic party keeps making the mistake of picking a winner early.
It's too late. None of the state parties have any of the setup done for a primary. Once an incumbent president (of either party) declares they're running again their party automatically backs them. I just feel lucky we have incumbent primaries for Congress.
I mean, I'm voting for West. Democrats only hold power if we say they do. Just don't vote for Democrats ever again. The only control we have is over ourselves let's exercise it
If there's a chance then sure. But I'm not exactly going to stick a fork in my eye just to spite the Democrats.
Voting for Democrats will only exacerbate our problems. Democrats have never made societies problems meaningfully better, at least in the modern era. Its not spiting them, it's not signing off on the thing we all know will definitely happen. Voting for Biden will make things worse. Voting for West might possibly make things better. The choice is obvious.
If West has a chance sure. If not then we're just denying votes to the contest between Status Quo man and Fascist man.
Or what?
Edit: FYI I'm not supporting Israel doing this
Or they'll give them even more money and say some angry things about it.
The USA could end homelessness or hunger (and maybe both) nationally for the amount of money we sent to Israel each year.
No, no they could not lol. Not even remotely close.
The US spends $2 Billion a year on aid to Israel.
They spend $105 Billion a year in direct payments to SNAP (food stamps) recipients.
And $32 Billion a year on section 8 housing vouchers.
It's almost as if throwing money at free handouts doesn't fix the problem.
The problem is starving homeless children. Feeding them and giving them housing fixes this. It also gives them more opportunities, which makes it more likely they contribute to society in meaningful ways (including paying more in taxes than we spend helping them, especially when factored over generations). The alternative is often a bigger tax burden via the criminal justice system. (Prison is much more expensive than housing vouchers and food stamps).
Bringing people out of poverty is a good economic investment. The only time handouts don't help is when they go to the financial sector. It doesn't improve tax income for the State and investors begin to predict bailouts, making risky investments more worthwhile because Uncle Sam will help them out.
Tax the rich, feed the poor.
2 billion dollars won’t solve a single thing, nationally.
Since ‘48, we’ve sent over 158 billion in aid- without adjusting for inflation.
It’s more than all other countries combined- including Ukraine.
Even that 2 billion could go a very long way to helping.
You're right, it could.
In fact, the US could fund a few wars and conflicts, end homelessness, implement socialized healthcare and fund the world's best public transit system with affordable high-speed trains between cities simultaneously.
But they don't because they don't want to, not because they can't.
That's enough to end homelessness last I checked. (Last year or so I compared median national housing prices and found that Elon Musk's wealth was enough to take every family and single person in the country off the street. That's how obscene 150 billion is. It's enough to end homelessness).
For real. Every day they wake up with the ability to end hunger, or end homelessness, and they decide not to do it.
Sick fucks.
Eh, I’m a bit pessimistic about a 100% solution to it. Can’t save everyone… That’s not a reason to not do everything that can be done, but I just don’t think there will ever be an end.
And I absolutely agree with how obscene it is
Good thing it's more than Ukraine too. Wouldn't want any com block arms dealers mouths to go unfed.
That homelessness and hunger are not ended in the USA is not because the money needed is spent on other things, it is because the government doesn't want to end them.
Massacring civilians is fine, but occupying is a bridge too far, I guess.
I definitely get your point here, but a ground invasion would be irreversible. They would never leave Gaza
Haven't they done it twice before? Something like 2006 and 2014?
They didn't demand evacuation back then. They invaded, killed a bunch of people, declared victory, then left (obvious oversimplification). This time, they ordering the civilian population to leave seems to be an indication they expect to invade, murder stragglers, then annex the land once it's empty and leveled. It does seem to go along with the rhetoric of “exerting a price they've never dreamed of”.
It's very much a price the Palestinians dream of though. Israeli settler groups did exactly that in 1947.
Death is kinda irreversible too
Agreed. Just needed to point this out
warehouse workers ask Jeff Bezos not to travel by private jet
I mean, the US does have access to the money and weapons faucet Israel relies on.
Israel won't even need to occupy Gaza after they carpet bomb whats left of it into rubble. 😒
Biden "And definitely don't occupy 5 different countrys at the same time. Some of them for over 20 years. Come on man!"
Listen here, jack!
*countries
Yeah, what will he or the Democrats do when Israel does occupy Gaza?
Continue to provide unequivocal support and money to Israel?
It's not like they'll do anything else like officially recognize Israel has been acting as a apartheid state causing mass human suffering which in turn grew more mass suffering and conflict.
Don't you dare cross this line!
Ok don't cross this line!!
Ok don't cross THIS line!
Ok I'm going inside, if you knock, I'm not coming out.
Obama picked Biden for VP because he was a darling of the Israel lobby, who didn't particularly like Obama. Anyone who's satisfied by this sort of lip service from Biden were just looking for any reason to absolve the administration to serve a partisan political alignment.
I think it would be the ultimate show of force if the U.S. gives aid to Israel, tells Israel to not go any further, and when they do, the U.S. obliterates their military. "We helped you and you still lost." I just wish the innocent wouldn't get killed. The innocent and vulnerable are always the ones who suffer. Fuck war.
After decades of turning blind eye towards Israel's crimes, suddenly Murica thinks it's going too far.
“I think it’d be a big mistake,” Mr. Biden told “60 Minutes” on CBS in a conversation taped on Thursday and aired on Sunday night. “Look, what happened in Gaza, in my view, is Hamas and the extreme elements of Hamas don’t represent all the Palestinian people. And I think that it would be a mistake for Israel to occupy Gaza again.” But “taking out the extremists” there, he added, “is a necessary requirement.”
I'm not sure how anyone is taking this as a controversial take. Logistically, practically, and the urgent bloodthirst for revenge make this fucking hard to do. But this seems to me to be a pretty even keeled non polarizing take on a complex situation where there is justification for military action against a terrorist group, and that military action must be measured against the safety and needs of a civilian population.
It's not an even take, because he has not proposed taking out the extremists in Israel.
Because Israel already occupies Gaza and other Palestinian areas.
Because Israel already occupies Gaza and other Palestinian areas.
Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, where the hell are you getting your information?
Israel still controls all traffic, imports, utilities, and ingress/egress from the area (if it didn't, they wouldn't have been able to cut off power, water, and aid). Israel "withdrawing from Gaza" doesn't really mean much unless Gaza has elected representation and can sustain itself.
It's ok I told the angry pitbull to not attack the baby I slathered in steak sauce. Anyway, off to golf.
The US is sending mix signals. Biden condemns Hamas, calls them terrorists, and funds the iron dome. Of course Israel thinks they have carte blanche in the region. Surrounded by hostile nations, what other nations in the world acts as aggressive as Israel. They do it because they know they have the full backing of the US. The question is will we live in a world without any Palestinians in the middle east soon - coz that's where we're headed.
Israel misspelled their defense system. Should be called the irony dome.
I agree with you. But I'd like to add this.
I live in Israel at the moment, I'm not Israeli but I moved here for my job.
I live in a pretty safe area, but we still had rockets coming from Gaza and from up north Hezbolla. They were explicitly targeting civilian areas. But iron Dome and the other system, David something intercepted it. Perspective on life changes when you see a flying missile heading your way only to get intercepted by these systems.
The area where I live is full of Arabs, Jews, immigrant from Eastern Europe etc. and had several pro-palastine rallies in the past couple of days, and I stand with them.
Also, There have been at least 5 to 6 Hamas strikes every hour since last week, they are targeting everywhere around Israel and iron Dome is on full protection.
I just wanted to add, I don't know what for..
I imagine your perspective also changes if the missiles were landing and killing people, innocent civilians all around you, your house, hospitals, etc. That's what it's like for the people in Gaza.
It also looks pretty suspicious when there's lots of immigrants in Israel and mostly Palestinians in a separate cordoned off area (kinda like an apartheid state).
There are quite a lot of palastinians here mate. You should really visit Palestine when you get a chance.. the amount of people chanting death to the Jews is kind of absurd.
Please try and check out some telegram groups or sites like Funker etc for leaked footage. Hamas holds them hostage during the knock-off alert. IDF doesn't target civilians explicitly. The nuances of this war are a bit deeper than what we can convey in text here.
Also see that Israel has asylum for gay/trans people fleeing Palestine or middle east. My point being, Israel does try to be as humane as possible in this war, but some horror stories about Hamas (and other terrorist organisations) are really depraved.
I support peace. That is all.
No more bloodshed.
Edit: I forgot to add this.. when I said perspective, I'm talking about perspective on life. Not in this war or religion or anything else. Just living and life in general
Israel does try to be as humane as possible in this war
How can you possibly say this when the number of people Israel has killed dwarfs the number of people killed by any Palestinian terrorist group, Hamas or otherwise?
I support peace too but one side of this equation is tipped so far that it's hard for me to take anyone seriously that claims Israel's goals are anywhere near the vicinity of "peaceful" or "humane".
That being said... stay safe. I can't imagine the situation you're in.
I mean, ya, there's a lot of Palestinians there. That's because Israel took their land. There's also a lot of black people in South Africa, even during apartheid, too. But tons of them were still pushed off their homes into tiny strips of land in Gaza and the West Bank, so now the majority are in those other places. The same thing happened to the natives in the US.
IDF don't target civilians explicitly but they also don't seem to care about them. They've killed thousands more civilians than Hamas has with the barest of excuses, all to find Hamas not really caring about collateral. That's what happens when you drop bombs all over the place. And the fear and terror and horrible quality of life causes things like Hamas. Hamas sucks, I'm sure they would kill more if they could, but Israel has the power in this relationship. When non-violent protests lead to killed or getting your knees blown off, or to nothing at all (like most protests for Palestinians have been for the last near century), when there's no hope or chance of growth, the average is 18 and you're probably never going to grow old or successful, then people turn to monsters like Hamas.
Thank you for adding it. It boils down to regular people being hurt, and as an outsider I feel helpless because there doesn't seem to be a good solution, just less bad ones.
Like there's constantly a few kids ruining everything for the rest of us.
Now that it's been a week since Hamas attacked, there's all these stories coming out about how the IDF didn't even respond to the attack for an hour, and how many friendly fire incidents keep happening, and how incompetent the ground troops are in general. The certainty in their military might is completely gone and now there's no telling what could happen. Western allies have basically given them carte blanch approval for genocide and now some of them aren't so certain.
But he said he was convinced that “the Israelis are going to do everything in their power to avoid the killing of innocent civilians.”
It certainly does more than Hama's ever did. I like how people conveniently forget that not only operating a military HQ bunker under a hospital is a warcrime in and of itself, it also makes it a legitimate war target.
I wrote this long ass comment for another person but I want to put it here too. Hamas having bunkers in a densely populated area under the city is not a "war crime". The whole thing with Hamas using human shields by setting up camp inside Gaza is BS.
What I mean to say is that when people say "human shields", they mean when civilians are forced into crossfire to protect the enemy troops. However, there exists the notion of "proximity shielding".
Authors Neve Gordon and Nicola Perugini, elaborating on their book, Human Shields: A History of People in the Line of Fire, discuss "proximate shields", humans as shields merely due to proximity to belligerents and assert that this type has become "by far the most prominent type of shield in contemporary discourse". They say that the proximate shielding accusation has been used by States to cover-up war crimes against civilian populations and that human rights organizations frequently fail to question this charge which they claim is being improperly used to justify civilian deaths.[7]
There are several pieces that discuss this idea, but here are some.
Our research suggests that human rights and humanitarian organizations have been complicit with this framing exercise and that it is urgent to have a frank conversation about human shields and the legal and political implications of the human shielding accusation. Both in our book and in several academic articles, we have shown that hi-tech States spend considerable resources on media campaigns and mobilize legal and military expertise to justify their use of lethal violence in cities where civilians are trapped.[ii] We describe how human shields, and particularly the charge of proximate shielding, are being widely used by States and their militaries to justify civilian deaths in asymmetric conflicts, and how it has become a major tool in what we have called the ‘erosion’ of the civilian.
**
If you turn your eyes back to the wiki page I first linked under the section on Israel and Palestine:
Israel has used the charge, in what has been termed its 'infowar' on social media,[56] to explain the high ratio of civilian vs military casualties in its conflict with Gaza. In Operation Cast Lead 100 Gazans died for every Israeli, and the civilian ratio was 400 Gazans to 1 Israeli. Israeli spokesmen explained the difference by alleging that Hamas used civilians as shields. It has been argued that no evidence has come to light proving these claims.[57][58][59][60] In September 2004, Justice Aharon Barak presiding over the Israeli Supreme Court, issued a demand that the IDF desist from the practice of using Palestinians as human shields, and in October outlawed the procedure.[61] The independent human rights NGOs B'tselem and Amnesty International have stated that ample evidence exists in conflicts after that date that Israel has employed Palestinians as human shields. According to B'tselem, the practice goes back to 1967.[55][61]
By these means, entire populations and vast cities are reduced to war space. Prevailing hierarchies of humanity ensure that some places and some people are far more likely to find themselves expendable through the twisted logics and framings of the human shield.
I hope this makes my point clear but basically: Israel is using proximity shielding (aka accusing Hamas of using civilians as human shields) to justify ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, and has itself had to outlaw the use of Palestinians as human shields because it was a normal part of Israeli military operations and totally allowed until all the human rights groups finally succeeded in outlawing it, and yet Israel still sometimes uses it.
And yet nobody has ever shown pictures or evidence that they do that. We hear about it constantly, but not one photo to back it up in a world of pocket cameras.
Hamas are a fucking blight, but I'm tired of the same god damned excuses for Israel's bad behavior. Fuck the IDF. Fuck Hamas. Fuck the whole lot assholes who put innocents in danger.
Civilians, Israeli or Palestinian, should not be pawns. The one immutable fact is, only one side here has any real power.
Exactly. And yet we have these pieces of evidence and we ignore them.
EDIT: I see the downvotes, from all my heart I say, "fuck you".
These are all examples of times when Israel used Palestinians as human shields and the world ignores it.
"Woops! Another journalist died. We didn't see the blue helmets. We're colorblind lol!"
Giant long post propping up a terrorist organization. Fuck yourself.
operating a military HQ bunker under a hospital is a warcrime in and of itself, it also makes it a legitimate war target.
Even if this were true, by International Humanitarian Law it does not make it a legitimate war target. One side committing war crimes is never carte blanche for the opposing side to also commit war crimes.
An example, just because Russian soldiers raped little kids in Bucha does not magically allow the Ukrainians to bomb hospital or to execute non-combatants. IHL intents explicitly to avoid tit for tat. Remember that the Russians also justify bombing hospitals and civilian residential buildings by accusing Ukrainians of using them as human shields.
It's funny how the IDF just classifies hospitals, apartments, UN camps, and schools as military targets and you don't ask any questions. Just how many HQs does Hamas have?
Israeli bombing leveled entire villages in Gaza and the West Bank on the first night after the attack, over 300 children were killed in just that night. They've destroyed numerous apartment blocks, hospitals, schools with airstrikes. They struck a convoy of refugees on a road specifically designated as a safe route for evacuation, killing 70 people in one strike, mostly women and children.
It certainly does more than Hama’s ever did.
Normally? Yeah I guess.
Now? No way. People have been bombed while evacuating to supposed safe locations or along safe routes. Like many times.
Its crazy to me the amount of support HAMAS is getting by random people on the internet.
Yes, Isreal has done terrible things, but you have to compare it to what their enemies are doing and would do in their place. HAMAS attacked civilians on purpose, executed babies and elderly. Kidnaped, tortured, and raped. Desicrated bodies, dragging them behind vehicles while cheering. Went door to door executing entire villages.
If roles were reversed, HAMAS would flatten the gaza strip. They wouldn't give two thoughts about civilians.
Or maybe we're capable of condemning both! "You have to compare it to what their enemies are doing" hints that you arent. Isreal on the state and military levels is abhorrent shit, AND so is Hamas. One of them being garbage monsters doesnt stop the other one from being
Israeli bombing leveled entire villages in Gaza and the West Bank on the first night after the attack, over 300 children were killed in just that night. They’ve destroyed numerous apartment blocks, hospitals, schools with airstrikes. They struck a convoy of refugees on a road specifically designated as a safe route for evacuation, killing 70 people in one strike, mostly women and children.
It doesn't matter what occurred before this, to point out the atrocities still on-going doesn't mean you are a supporter of Hamas, and within Palestine there are several militant and other political groups. To support Palestine doesn't mean you support Hamas or terrorism.
Sure if you skew the definition of occupy enough, or can't distinguish between Gaza and the West Bank, because all you know is propaganda.
Go look at a map of the UN borders. Then look at a map of where Israeli troops are
Now come back here and say that again with a straight face.
Do you think we will hear back from them?
Doubt it.
You're not even in the conversation, what are you trying to contribute, more hate?
Okay I will. Israel pulled out of Gaza to let them have their independence and self govern, they elected a terrorist organization to run the place. Israel has not governed Gaza since then, nor has is occupied the territory. If you want to spread misinformation, at least pick something you know anything about.
Israel pulled out of Gaza to let them have their independence and self govern, they elected a terrorist organization to run the place. Israel has not governed Gaza since then, nor has is occupied the territory.
This is only true under a definition that is entirely biased towards Israel. Israel funded the elections in question, which were held over 18 years ago (long enough to where the average Palestinian *wasn't even born yet much less had the right or ability to vote), and controls all food, water, supplies, utilities, and ingress/egress into the area. That is not "let[ting] them have their independence and self-govern".
Delusional.
Isreal doesn't recognize Palestine as a state. They say they are in charge of it.
You can't even tell the difference between West Bank and Gaza, just grouping them into Palestine. Seriously, go educate yourself before regurgitating propaganda.
Israel literally controls everything. That's how they cut water and electricity.
They don't control it, they're providing it free of charge.
No they're not.
They cut it off.
They stopped providing these services free of charge to the enemy when the war started.
Having water and electricity is a human right.
The fact that Israel control it is a crime.
You're confusing Hamas which ripped out the water lines to make rockets, and used funds and supplies for a desalination plant to make terror tunnels, with Israel. Which graciously providing Gaza, which is not part of, nor governed by Israel, with water.
Edit: here is an example you might be able to understand. Your neighbor comes over asking to use the shower because their water line burst due to them spending their money on hookers instead of fixing it. While they're over, they shoot your dog. Will you let them in again to use your water?
Here's the actual example you might be able yo understand.
An occupier invades your home, kills your family, an occupies your home. When you fight for your home, they kill more of your family.
By any chance, do you happen to have supported the Iraq war?
Do you but any chance support terrorist organizations? It sounds like you do.
Statements like this need to followed up with "or else!"
AfGazastan incoming
No word about the killing of civilians?
The last thing the US wants to bring up in discussion is the killing of civilians, I imagine. We killed hundreds of thousands just in Iraq. (And that's not counting the embargo we had against Saddam that starved a million people and gave rise to Al Qaeda either.)
I think that is exactly what we want to bring up from the US. We fucked up our response to 9/11. We have some perspective on pushing for restraint for Israel reacting to their 9/11. Even if we avoid moralizing on civilian life, we are least can talk about the cost of perpetual war and occupation.
We have some perspective on pushing for restraint for Israel reacting to their 9/11.
Is that perspective "go for it, it's very profitable and a great excuse to do away with civil rights"?
No. There's a lot of Americans that have shame and a strong desire to repeat those mistakes.
So many empty hateful comments here miss the fact that 70 years ago was 70 years ago, and since then a whole new generation of people are living in the region. Israelies who don't feel obligated to have Israel but don't want anti-Semitism abroad, and palestinians who don't mind staying where they were born, inside the 48 borders, but want a decent live inside of it.
No leader from any place on earth is working towards them.
Israeli leaders want the whole country for themselves, and Palestinian leaders also want the whole land for themselves.
Neither is plausible without serious loss of life.
So stop being so one-sided and actually acknowledge there are two sides to this conflict, and that all parties are reaponsible. Israel would give anything in the world to have peaceful rulers in Gaza.
Israel would give anything in the world to have peaceful rulers in Gaza.
All the evidence tells us this is not true.
I was with them until that comment. Israeli people might want that, but the action of the Israeli government has been the opposite. Funny they say 'stop being so one-sided' and say Israel wants peaceful rulers, like Palestinians don't want that also.
like Palestinians don’t want that also.
Exactly. This fiction that Palestinians all want Hamas to murder Israelis, or even want them to stay in charge is dangerous, because they open the door to even more moderate people buying the idea that the only thing preventing peace is Palestinians wanting it.
While the majority of Gazans (65%) did think it likely that there would be “a large military conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza” this year, a similar percentage (62%) supported Hamas maintaining a ceasefire with Israel. Moreover, half (50%) agreed with the following proposal: “Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders.”
Moreover, across the region, Hamas has lost popularity over time among many Arab publics. This decline in popularity may have been one of the motivating factors behind the group’s decision to attack.
In fact, Gazan frustration with Hamas governance is clear; most Gazans expressed a preference for PA administration and security officials over Hamas—the majority of Gazans (70%) supported a proposal of the PA sending “officials and security officers to Gaza to take over the administration there, with Hamas giving up separate armed units,” including 47% who strongly agreed. Nor is this a new view—this proposal has had majority support in Gaza since first polled by The Washington Institute in 2014.
So stop being so one-sided and actually acknowledge there are two sides to this conflict, and that all parties are reaponsible.
I find comments like this frustrating.
There may be two sides, but there's only one side with an actual military and nukes and only one side running an apartheid. The only reason people aren't referring to Israel as a terrorist state (which they are) is that they're destroying hospitals with bombs dropped from planes and shooting news reporters with guns held by soldiers in military uniforms.
The other side has no military, has been blockaded for sixteen years, is terrorized and killed at will without recourse, and isn't actually allowed to leave.
What makes Israel the criminal here is the power they wield and how they've chosen to use it.
So sure, yeah, there are two sides, yes, but the two sides are very, very different.
You could have said the same thing 70 years ago about the leader if mandatory Palestine who was appointed by the British colonizers and collaborated with Nazis, and that a group like Irgun bravely fought against them. The same Irgun that carried out the Deir Yassin massacre.
What Israel's government is doing is wrong, and they should pay for it. And Israel should pay reparations. But the majority of Israeli's, Palestinians, and American Jews and Muslims just want peace man. This whole thing about who colonized who is silly.
This whole thing about who colonized who is silly.
Yeah.
So silly.
Jews deserve reparations from the Ottoman empire.
The difference is Israel still exists, holding Palestine back, it's not even about reparations but stopping the actions on-going today, not just about righting wrongs from the past.
Reparations are crucial in stopping current unjust policies. That is something I believe anyway. A government can't actively acknowledge the existence of injustice as simultaneously support policy that perpetuates it. That is one of the reasons why governments are so reluctant to pay reparations in the first place.
For Israel's continued existence as a state, it is crucial that they pay reparations. This might mean that a few Jewish American young adults might not get to go on a free vacation to Israel, but so be it.
But we live today, not 70 years ago.
Lol today is the result of 70 years ago. Actions don't just stop affecting people's lives because they happened a long time ago. We couldn't possibly live or do anything if we thought that way.
Yes, Israel has responsibility to pay reparations. I have fought for that tirelessly in many ways. I just don't like being called a colonizers when I have never even been there.
I just don’t like being called a colonizers
Then don't support colonizers. It's pretty easy.
Read through my post history where I have repeatedly condemned the Israeli govt. And then let me know if you think I "support colonizers".
I'm very frustrated that leftists can't frame evil in the world as anything other than the "forces of colonization". It's a very complete and utter misunderstanding of world history and politics.
This whole thing about who colonized who is silly.
This should be whom. Better luck next time!
Oh so because the other side is weak they're supposed to just sit idle when they murder pillage and rape?
You're disregarding all the brutal fights Israel has fought against its neighbours as "they're strong so boo hoo". They also have thousands dead. They're also terrorized daily. Just because they're stronger doesn't make them less right.
Again, they of course have a responsibility in this situation, but come on. Please tell me of any rocket launchers hidden inside a hospital Israel has. Blaming solely israel for the palestinian miserable lives is half the story. A big part of it is their terrorist leadership who take advantage of their poverty to promote a gruesome war they started (not talking about these days, talking about 48, where all the UN agreed on something and they chose to invade. Since then both sides are fully taking part in this war.).
You have no knowledge of the history and it's painfully obvious.
Hamas exists because Israel killed secular resistance movements and funded Hamas' rise.
Oh right, it's not like gaza had a democratic elections where Hamas won... (And then ran a coup murdering the opposition).
Israel chose the (what seemed then) less of two greater evil. Clearly they were wrong, and they faced the consequences on saturday.
that 70 years ago was 70 years ago,
I don't have a row to hoe in any of this but that alone tells me you're full of shit and apologizing for some evil asshole somewhere in the conflict. The past is always gonna matter whether you want it to or not.
Clearly you don't understand what I mean, since you're not that knowledgeable in this conflict.
Palestinians' leaders final goal is to get the 48 borders back. Nothing less and nothing more. And to that I said that it's been 70 years, and you'll need to grab it by conquest to get it, since the people lived there an entire life, and will never give it up. The leaders from both sides need to understand that any further border change between them will only make things worse, and the ones who started wanting to conquer was Palestinians. Now Israel is doing the same, but after many years, in which they got more right wing and more national, because of course they will when their busses are bombed by terrorists on the other side. I'm not saying Israel is clear of charge, I just say that they started better than Palestinians, then got more national as time went, because obviously - their enemies are murdering rapists. Palestinians are consistent with their desire to destroy Israel, Israelies have been building up to it (talking about each of their leaders, a.k.a the ones who matter).
So in other words you really really want me to reject the notion that the past matters, and therefore you can be dismissed outright.
*The distant past. A.k.a, the 48 past.
So much has changed since then, including the people themselves. People should act based on how to improve their present and future, not how to improve (avenge) their past.
An eye for an eye leaves Israel/Palestine a smoldering hole in the ground...
No, I think I got that wrong. How does it go?
Another retarded thought-terminating cliche that is making me think you are more and more sus.
What do you stand to gain from trying to manipulate someone like me?
Come on, english is a very large language full of other words you can use besides slurs.
Now you know how I feel when you dumbasses insinuate that the past doesn't matter.
I didn't do that which you can easily tell by reading the conversation up to this point.
I jumped in to comment on your usage of slurs for no reason.
Which is a petty act that does nothing but derail the conversation, but do go ahead and prove my point that you're here to argue in bad faith by quibbling over the use of a word instead of focusing on what really matters: the morality of the Israel/Hamas conflict.
Here, go ahead, retard. The floor is yours:
I said my piece, that there's no need to use slurs when you can use many other words that convey the same meaning.
In reality, there are far more than two sides. At least we should look at four groups: Israel and Palestine, crossed with militant and non-militant.
Thinking in terms of only two sides is a trap, because it invites people (not you, but others who have the same starting point) to justify mass killing in the name of revenge or justice or deterrence whatever label they prefer.
No, there are two sides.
One side, Hamas, the Zionist government, and their supporters.
The other side, the civilians of both cultures who just want their supposed representatives to stop fighting.
Israel would give anything in the world to have peaceful rulers in Gaza.
Delusional.
i understand you are well intentioned but really also simplistic and generic. what you have said can apply to any conflict just changing the names.
the world through the UN resolutions has clearly indicated who is the oppressor and violators of human rights.
it is the state of Israel itself.
Right now? Yeah, definitely they're violating human rights. But what are they supposed to do given their history? Every Palestinian leadership ever called out for civilians to be "jihad"s (terrorists) and kill as many as possible.
I was simplistic because everyone here on lemmy also talks simplisticly. Talk of no nuance and no faults on both sides, mainly say "israel bad", "israel apartheid", "israel should stop existing" - all while forgetting this conflict has two sides. Yes, one side is poorer, but that doesn't make them more just. Both are wrong, but arguably palestinian leadership are the worst here. Being at a huge disadvantage and still choosing to fight a war they'll lose, while in the process keeping their citizens poor. At least Israel evacuated the cities near Gaza, while Hamas blocked people evacuating outside of a warzone.
sorry for late response.
well,is it not true that the entity who denies the right of existence to the other side has been Israel?
is it not true that Israel is a terrorist state by any definition of the word?
and is it not true that Hamad is truely something which if it did not exist, Israel would wish it existed?
and is it not true that that which Israel wishes for, Israel gets?
what are your thoughts on these?
Palestine denies the existence of Israel, even stated by the symbols of Hamas and the PLO, coloring the entire state of Israel as their territory. Now, who actually has the right to that land? The ones who bought those lands in the early 20th century and got a majority vote of the U.N to their creation alongside their neighbours? Or is it the ones who objected since the beginning up until today that no jew can rule any part of that land? The biggest diners of the other side's existence are the Palestinians. They have since the beginning denied the right for a jewish state to exist. Israel started to deny a Palestinian state to exist only after the arabs started an all-out war on Israel.
Terrorist state? What does that even mean considering they Palestinians aren't their citizens? They're a state who has very hostile neighbours right next to them, and that acts with aggression to aggression. No act of violence against civilians has been started by the IDF, while hundreds of acts of violence have started against civilians by Hamas (the PLO don't directly do terrorism, but they pay terrorist jihad's families for killing innocents).
Can you really say that Israel wishes for Hamas? Even after 7/10 can you seriously say that Israel wishes for such a violent terrorist organization to exist right next to their borders?
If so then that's some severe case of Stockholm syndrome.
Yes, Hamas is simpler to deal with politically, but it's so much more threatening and hard to deal with militarily. How are they supposed to fight people who hide amongst innocents? Hamas is probably the biggest headache to Israel ever. They ruin their relations with Suni arab countries, they make them look bad to the western world by making them bomb civilian infrastructure, and they actively pillage their villages for terror's sake. Seriously, how can Israel wish for that.
Also let's be clear, what Israel wants is the entire land of Israel, including the west bank, all under jewish control. That's obviously their best scenario. Do they get what they wish? No. Do they work for it? Yeah. Can you blame them? Idk. Probably. They really should work more towards creating a Palestinian state in the west bank/gaza, but that could be said for the Palestinian leaders as well, who are still advocating for the entire annexation of Palestinians over the entire land of Israel ("from the river to the sea...").
America is Israel's bitch. They won't do anything against Israel
I think there are at least two reasonable positions you could adopt that make more sense. Why don't you try one on for size?
First, you could argue that Israel is part of a US proxy war against ... I'm not sure who, but someone. In the distant past, it would have been the USSR. Maybe a war against Islam, depending who you're talking about.
Second, you could argue that the US military industrial complex is happy for war anywhere, because it's more money in their pockets, and they're greedy.
Of course everything is more complicated, so who knows, but that's a starting point for a framework that might help you understand the motives of people in power.
Chamberlain agrees. Willing to negotiate.
What does my garage door opener have to do with any of this?
I believe it's a reference to Nazi appeaser Nevil Chamberlain.
Yes, and Chamberlain got his.
They've been occupying Gaza with their "settlements" for years. What will you do if they continue Mr. President?
The settlements are in the west bank not Gaza.
They do have "settlers" on the border of Gaza as an encroachment tactic. Technically illegal, but it's assumed they're sanctioned.
"Israel should not occupy the Gaza Strip!"
*wink* *wink*
It's almost funny watching people twist themselves into knots over Israel not occupying a territory that morons claim they already occupy, if only people weren't dying because of Hamas terrorists.
What does he have to gain, politically, by putting Israel on notice in this way? Nothing domestically nor geopolitically. He's just going to be stuck holding the bag pointlessly when they retake that land.
Congress is divided because of the Republican party and the invasion of Gaza is surprisingly unpopular. If this gets dragged out the republicans are gonna have another schism on their hands.
I'm glad to see that Bibi's not gonna get away with this
Just to be clear I'm not weighing in on what I think should happen. I'm just saying unheeded commands erode authority (and credibility).
I'm not qualified to assert an appropriate outcome in all of this, but I think that state actors who punish and pawn civilians domestically and abroad are hellish and should be removed by their people. Everyone on every side of every border deserves comfort and security.
Not gonna happen anyway, Gaza was already under occupation once, it was not a happy time to anybody concerned. The goal is the destruction of Hamas. If Fatah wants Gaza after that that's their problem and they can have it.
I think it was possibly Vice that did a documentary on life in Gaza? This was during peacetime and it was fucking awful.
I don’t think America, the country that arguably occupied Afghanistan, gets to take the high road here.
It's possible for two things to be wrong at the same time.
Isn’t it more of a “oh man, don’t do what we did. Oh boy, did that suck” kinda thing?
Whataboutism at its finest, folks. "Murika done did it, so they can't take a stance."
I don’t think Israel would benefit from occupying Gaza, mostly because they have already done that before and know it doesn’t work.
You're missing my point.
Insinuating that because America occupied Afghanistan they don't have the right to make statements about Israel occupying Gaza is absurd.
Frankly, Gaza is already an open air prison. They can't leave, the don't have real autonomy, their food, water, electricity, and health are all effectively controlled by Israel.
The UN general assembly probably does though and they are condemning both hamas and Israel government
I didn't see the interview, so I'm basing this on just the quotes from the linked article, but Biden stopped very short of criticism and appeared to becoming from a strategic "it's a bad plan, do it differently" perspective rather than a moral high-ground perspective.
Which is consistent with US foreign policy, even if I think it's casually glossing over some atrocities in a way I find truly revolting.
Stop funding it.
It's this part.
We're telling them they've gone too far, seeing rules... and giving them weapons. Are we giving them seasons so they listen?
And if they don't listen, doesn't this make us complicit and with exceedingly poor intensional optics?
They know that the worst that will happen is a stern warning. "Don't do that again, but it was justified. But don't do it... OK, just a little bit, but still."
The wink and the nod really spoil the effect of the stern look and strong finger wagging...
What stern looks? I'm not seeing them.
"We're telling you not to do this thing, and we assure you all we'll ever do about you still doing it is to tell you again not to do it whilst carrying on helping you to do it"
How much Israeli money do you reckon went into the pockets of members of the fascist "freedom" caucus?
Congress would need to initiate it unfortunately
Biden: "For fuck's sake, Israel, don't do something this monumentally stupid."
No points for guessing what comes next.
Is it ethnic cleansing?
Oh boy!
"Here I go killin' again!"
That's been happening for decades and just last week they starting displacing 1MM more. So I don't think "next" is the right word.
Ethnic cleansing comes next. It also came previous, but it will come next, too.
I have 500 on anyone who evacuated the Northern area is denied re-entry and the maps change to gaslight the world into thinking Gaza was always that small.
I don't see why they'd need to occupy anything. Occupation would imply that you wanted to control that area and those people. I think Israel knows occupation would never work and wouldn't try it. They've preferred to wall-off people in enclaves, slowly squeeze all life out of those regions, and when the people they have cornered inevitably violently lash out against their own slow-motion genocide, it's time to flatten the area with bombs again. Israel calls it "mowing the grass" and I don't think a massive occupation fits with that strategy. I think they want to break the region, scatter the people, and leave it to rot, not occupy and be forced to manage it into the future indefinitely.
Turning it into the world's largest open air prison is occupation.
Biden needs to be primaried.
The democratic party keeps making the mistake of picking a winner early.
It's too late. None of the state parties have any of the setup done for a primary. Once an incumbent president (of either party) declares they're running again their party automatically backs them. I just feel lucky we have incumbent primaries for Congress.
I mean, I'm voting for West. Democrats only hold power if we say they do. Just don't vote for Democrats ever again. The only control we have is over ourselves let's exercise it
If there's a chance then sure. But I'm not exactly going to stick a fork in my eye just to spite the Democrats.
Voting for Democrats will only exacerbate our problems. Democrats have never made societies problems meaningfully better, at least in the modern era. Its not spiting them, it's not signing off on the thing we all know will definitely happen. Voting for Biden will make things worse. Voting for West might possibly make things better. The choice is obvious.
If West has a chance sure. If not then we're just denying votes to the contest between Status Quo man and Fascist man.
Or what?
Edit: FYI I'm not supporting Israel doing this
Or they'll give them even more money and say some angry things about it.
The USA could end homelessness or hunger (and maybe both) nationally for the amount of money we sent to Israel each year.
No, no they could not lol. Not even remotely close.
The US spends $2 Billion a year on aid to Israel.
They spend $105 Billion a year in direct payments to SNAP (food stamps) recipients.
And $32 Billion a year on section 8 housing vouchers.
It's almost as if throwing money at free handouts doesn't fix the problem.
The problem is starving homeless children. Feeding them and giving them housing fixes this. It also gives them more opportunities, which makes it more likely they contribute to society in meaningful ways (including paying more in taxes than we spend helping them, especially when factored over generations). The alternative is often a bigger tax burden via the criminal justice system. (Prison is much more expensive than housing vouchers and food stamps).
Bringing people out of poverty is a good economic investment. The only time handouts don't help is when they go to the financial sector. It doesn't improve tax income for the State and investors begin to predict bailouts, making risky investments more worthwhile because Uncle Sam will help them out.
Tax the rich, feed the poor.
2 billion dollars won’t solve a single thing, nationally.
Since ‘48, we’ve sent over 158 billion in aid- without adjusting for inflation.
It’s more than all other countries combined- including Ukraine.
Even that 2 billion could go a very long way to helping.
You're right, it could.
In fact, the US could fund a few wars and conflicts, end homelessness, implement socialized healthcare and fund the world's best public transit system with affordable high-speed trains between cities simultaneously.
But they don't because they don't want to, not because they can't.
That's enough to end homelessness last I checked. (Last year or so I compared median national housing prices and found that Elon Musk's wealth was enough to take every family and single person in the country off the street. That's how obscene 150 billion is. It's enough to end homelessness).
For real. Every day they wake up with the ability to end hunger, or end homelessness, and they decide not to do it.
Sick fucks.
Eh, I’m a bit pessimistic about a 100% solution to it. Can’t save everyone… That’s not a reason to not do everything that can be done, but I just don’t think there will ever be an end.
And I absolutely agree with how obscene it is
Good thing it's more than Ukraine too. Wouldn't want any com block arms dealers mouths to go unfed.
That homelessness and hunger are not ended in the USA is not because the money needed is spent on other things, it is because the government doesn't want to end them.
Glhf passing that bill
"Or else we will be very, very angry with you. And we will write you a letter, telling you how angry we are."
Or the region could destabilize and the US has diplomatic cover to limit their hypothetical response to a more defensive set of operations.
Massacring civilians is fine, but occupying is a bridge too far, I guess.
I definitely get your point here, but a ground invasion would be irreversible. They would never leave Gaza
Haven't they done it twice before? Something like 2006 and 2014?
They didn't demand evacuation back then. They invaded, killed a bunch of people, declared victory, then left (obvious oversimplification). This time, they ordering the civilian population to leave seems to be an indication they expect to invade, murder stragglers, then annex the land once it's empty and leveled. It does seem to go along with the rhetoric of “exerting a price they've never dreamed of”.
It's very much a price the Palestinians dream of though. Israeli settler groups did exactly that in 1947.
Death is kinda irreversible too
Agreed. Just needed to point this out
I mean, the US does have access to the money and weapons faucet Israel relies on.
Israel won't even need to occupy Gaza after they carpet bomb whats left of it into rubble. 😒
Biden "And definitely don't occupy 5 different countrys at the same time. Some of them for over 20 years. Come on man!"
Listen here, jack!
*countries
Yeah, what will he or the Democrats do when Israel does occupy Gaza?
Continue to provide unequivocal support and money to Israel?
It's not like they'll do anything else like officially recognize Israel has been acting as a apartheid state causing mass human suffering which in turn grew more mass suffering and conflict.
Don't you dare cross this line!
Ok don't cross this line!!
Ok don't cross THIS line!
Ok I'm going inside, if you knock, I'm not coming out.
Obama picked Biden for VP because he was a darling of the Israel lobby, who didn't particularly like Obama. Anyone who's satisfied by this sort of lip service from Biden were just looking for any reason to absolve the administration to serve a partisan political alignment.
I think it would be the ultimate show of force if the U.S. gives aid to Israel, tells Israel to not go any further, and when they do, the U.S. obliterates their military. "We helped you and you still lost." I just wish the innocent wouldn't get killed. The innocent and vulnerable are always the ones who suffer. Fuck war.
After decades of turning blind eye towards Israel's crimes, suddenly Murica thinks it's going too far.
I'm not sure how anyone is taking this as a controversial take. Logistically, practically, and the urgent bloodthirst for revenge make this fucking hard to do. But this seems to me to be a pretty even keeled non polarizing take on a complex situation where there is justification for military action against a terrorist group, and that military action must be measured against the safety and needs of a civilian population.
It's not an even take, because he has not proposed taking out the extremists in Israel.
Because Israel already occupies Gaza and other Palestinian areas.
Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, where the hell are you getting your information?
Israel still controls all traffic, imports, utilities, and ingress/egress from the area (if it didn't, they wouldn't have been able to cut off power, water, and aid). Israel "withdrawing from Gaza" doesn't really mean much unless Gaza has elected representation and can sustain itself.
It's ok I told the angry pitbull to not attack the baby I slathered in steak sauce. Anyway, off to golf.
The US is sending mix signals. Biden condemns Hamas, calls them terrorists, and funds the iron dome. Of course Israel thinks they have carte blanche in the region. Surrounded by hostile nations, what other nations in the world acts as aggressive as Israel. They do it because they know they have the full backing of the US. The question is will we live in a world without any Palestinians in the middle east soon - coz that's where we're headed.
Israel misspelled their defense system. Should be called the irony dome.
I agree with you. But I'd like to add this. I live in Israel at the moment, I'm not Israeli but I moved here for my job. I live in a pretty safe area, but we still had rockets coming from Gaza and from up north Hezbolla. They were explicitly targeting civilian areas. But iron Dome and the other system, David something intercepted it. Perspective on life changes when you see a flying missile heading your way only to get intercepted by these systems. The area where I live is full of Arabs, Jews, immigrant from Eastern Europe etc. and had several pro-palastine rallies in the past couple of days, and I stand with them. Also, There have been at least 5 to 6 Hamas strikes every hour since last week, they are targeting everywhere around Israel and iron Dome is on full protection.
I just wanted to add, I don't know what for..
I imagine your perspective also changes if the missiles were landing and killing people, innocent civilians all around you, your house, hospitals, etc. That's what it's like for the people in Gaza. It also looks pretty suspicious when there's lots of immigrants in Israel and mostly Palestinians in a separate cordoned off area (kinda like an apartheid state).
There are quite a lot of palastinians here mate. You should really visit Palestine when you get a chance.. the amount of people chanting death to the Jews is kind of absurd.
Please try and check out some telegram groups or sites like Funker etc for leaked footage. Hamas holds them hostage during the knock-off alert. IDF doesn't target civilians explicitly. The nuances of this war are a bit deeper than what we can convey in text here.
Also see that Israel has asylum for gay/trans people fleeing Palestine or middle east. My point being, Israel does try to be as humane as possible in this war, but some horror stories about Hamas (and other terrorist organisations) are really depraved.
I support peace. That is all. No more bloodshed.
Edit: I forgot to add this.. when I said perspective, I'm talking about perspective on life. Not in this war or religion or anything else. Just living and life in general
How can you possibly say this when the number of people Israel has killed dwarfs the number of people killed by any Palestinian terrorist group, Hamas or otherwise?
I support peace too but one side of this equation is tipped so far that it's hard for me to take anyone seriously that claims Israel's goals are anywhere near the vicinity of "peaceful" or "humane".
That being said... stay safe. I can't imagine the situation you're in.
I mean, ya, there's a lot of Palestinians there. That's because Israel took their land. There's also a lot of black people in South Africa, even during apartheid, too. But tons of them were still pushed off their homes into tiny strips of land in Gaza and the West Bank, so now the majority are in those other places. The same thing happened to the natives in the US.
IDF don't target civilians explicitly but they also don't seem to care about them. They've killed thousands more civilians than Hamas has with the barest of excuses, all to find Hamas not really caring about collateral. That's what happens when you drop bombs all over the place. And the fear and terror and horrible quality of life causes things like Hamas. Hamas sucks, I'm sure they would kill more if they could, but Israel has the power in this relationship. When non-violent protests lead to killed or getting your knees blown off, or to nothing at all (like most protests for Palestinians have been for the last near century), when there's no hope or chance of growth, the average is 18 and you're probably never going to grow old or successful, then people turn to monsters like Hamas.
Thank you for adding it. It boils down to regular people being hurt, and as an outsider I feel helpless because there doesn't seem to be a good solution, just less bad ones.
Like there's constantly a few kids ruining everything for the rest of us.
Now that it's been a week since Hamas attacked, there's all these stories coming out about how the IDF didn't even respond to the attack for an hour, and how many friendly fire incidents keep happening, and how incompetent the ground troops are in general. The certainty in their military might is completely gone and now there's no telling what could happen. Western allies have basically given them carte blanch approval for genocide and now some of them aren't so certain.
It certainly does more than Hama's ever did. I like how people conveniently forget that not only operating a military HQ bunker under a hospital is a warcrime in and of itself, it also makes it a legitimate war target.
I wrote this long ass comment for another person but I want to put it here too. Hamas having bunkers in a densely populated area under the city is not a "war crime". The whole thing with Hamas using human shields by setting up camp inside Gaza is BS.
What I mean to say is that when people say "human shields", they mean when civilians are forced into crossfire to protect the enemy troops. However, there exists the notion of "proximity shielding".
If you check the Wikipedia page for human shields:
There are several pieces that discuss this idea, but here are some.
In this analysis piece of proximity shielding, we read:
If you turn your eyes back to the wiki page I first linked under the section on Israel and Palestine:
Finally, this article discusses the politics surrounding the idea of human shields
I hope this makes my point clear but basically: Israel is using proximity shielding (aka accusing Hamas of using civilians as human shields) to justify ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, and has itself had to outlaw the use of Palestinians as human shields because it was a normal part of Israeli military operations and totally allowed until all the human rights groups finally succeeded in outlawing it, and yet Israel still sometimes uses it.
And yet nobody has ever shown pictures or evidence that they do that. We hear about it constantly, but not one photo to back it up in a world of pocket cameras.
Hamas are a fucking blight, but I'm tired of the same god damned excuses for Israel's bad behavior. Fuck the IDF. Fuck Hamas. Fuck the whole lot assholes who put innocents in danger.
Civilians, Israeli or Palestinian, should not be pawns. The one immutable fact is, only one side here has any real power.
Exactly. And yet we have these pieces of evidence and we ignore them.
Aljazeera documentary
Palestinian Children 'Routinely Tortured & Used As Human Shields By Israeli Forces', Says UN
Video from B'Tselem
More from B'Tselem who had to do so much just to have this human shield business against Palestinians banned in Israel
And finally this classic from which the iconic photo comes from
Photo:
EDIT: I see the downvotes, from all my heart I say, "fuck you". These are all examples of times when Israel used Palestinians as human shields and the world ignores it.
"Woops! Another journalist died. We didn't see the blue helmets. We're colorblind lol!"
Giant long post propping up a terrorist organization. Fuck yourself.
Even if this were true, by International Humanitarian Law it does not make it a legitimate war target. One side committing war crimes is never carte blanche for the opposing side to also commit war crimes.
An example, just because Russian soldiers raped little kids in Bucha does not magically allow the Ukrainians to bomb hospital or to execute non-combatants. IHL intents explicitly to avoid tit for tat. Remember that the Russians also justify bombing hospitals and civilian residential buildings by accusing Ukrainians of using them as human shields.
It's funny how the IDF just classifies hospitals, apartments, UN camps, and schools as military targets and you don't ask any questions. Just how many HQs does Hamas have?
Israeli bombing leveled entire villages in Gaza and the West Bank on the first night after the attack, over 300 children were killed in just that night. They've destroyed numerous apartment blocks, hospitals, schools with airstrikes. They struck a convoy of refugees on a road specifically designated as a safe route for evacuation, killing 70 people in one strike, mostly women and children.
Normally? Yeah I guess.
Now? No way. People have been bombed while evacuating to supposed safe locations or along safe routes. Like many times.
Its crazy to me the amount of support HAMAS is getting by random people on the internet.
Yes, Isreal has done terrible things, but you have to compare it to what their enemies are doing and would do in their place. HAMAS attacked civilians on purpose, executed babies and elderly. Kidnaped, tortured, and raped. Desicrated bodies, dragging them behind vehicles while cheering. Went door to door executing entire villages.
If roles were reversed, HAMAS would flatten the gaza strip. They wouldn't give two thoughts about civilians.
Or maybe we're capable of condemning both! "You have to compare it to what their enemies are doing" hints that you arent. Isreal on the state and military levels is abhorrent shit, AND so is Hamas. One of them being garbage monsters doesnt stop the other one from being
It doesn't matter what occurred before this, to point out the atrocities still on-going doesn't mean you are a supporter of Hamas, and within Palestine there are several militant and other political groups. To support Palestine doesn't mean you support Hamas or terrorism.
Archive link: https://archive.ph/2023.10.16-012318/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/us/politics/biden-israel-gaza.html
Too late?
Sure if you skew the definition of occupy enough, or can't distinguish between Gaza and the West Bank, because all you know is propaganda.
Go look at a map of the UN borders. Then look at a map of where Israeli troops are
Now come back here and say that again with a straight face.
Do you think we will hear back from them?
Doubt it.
You're not even in the conversation, what are you trying to contribute, more hate?
Okay I will. Israel pulled out of Gaza to let them have their independence and self govern, they elected a terrorist organization to run the place. Israel has not governed Gaza since then, nor has is occupied the territory. If you want to spread misinformation, at least pick something you know anything about.
This is only true under a definition that is entirely biased towards Israel. Israel funded the elections in question, which were held over 18 years ago (long enough to where the average Palestinian *wasn't even born yet much less had the right or ability to vote), and controls all food, water, supplies, utilities, and ingress/egress into the area. That is not "let[ting] them have their independence and self-govern".
Delusional.
Isreal doesn't recognize Palestine as a state. They say they are in charge of it.
You can't even tell the difference between West Bank and Gaza, just grouping them into Palestine. Seriously, go educate yourself before regurgitating propaganda.
Israel literally controls everything. That's how they cut water and electricity.
They don't control it, they're providing it free of charge.
No they're not. They cut it off.
They stopped providing these services free of charge to the enemy when the war started.
Having water and electricity is a human right.
The fact that Israel control it is a crime.
You're confusing Hamas which ripped out the water lines to make rockets, and used funds and supplies for a desalination plant to make terror tunnels, with Israel. Which graciously providing Gaza, which is not part of, nor governed by Israel, with water.
Edit: here is an example you might be able to understand. Your neighbor comes over asking to use the shower because their water line burst due to them spending their money on hookers instead of fixing it. While they're over, they shoot your dog. Will you let them in again to use your water?
Here's the actual example you might be able yo understand. An occupier invades your home, kills your family, an occupies your home. When you fight for your home, they kill more of your family.
By any chance, do you happen to have supported the Iraq war?
Do you but any chance support terrorist organizations? It sounds like you do.
Israel already controls every aspect of life in Gaza. They ration how much food and water they allow in, to keep them near starvation.
The ration how many weapons are smuggled in and how much aid Hamas can build rockets out of. Hamas rations out the starvation.
Why are you just making shit up?
Statements like this need to followed up with "or else!"
AfGazastan incoming
No word about the killing of civilians?
The last thing the US wants to bring up in discussion is the killing of civilians, I imagine. We killed hundreds of thousands just in Iraq. (And that's not counting the embargo we had against Saddam that starved a million people and gave rise to Al Qaeda either.)
I think that is exactly what we want to bring up from the US. We fucked up our response to 9/11. We have some perspective on pushing for restraint for Israel reacting to their 9/11. Even if we avoid moralizing on civilian life, we are least can talk about the cost of perpetual war and occupation.
Is that perspective "go for it, it's very profitable and a great excuse to do away with civil rights"?
No. There's a lot of Americans that have shame and a strong desire to repeat those mistakes.
So many empty hateful comments here miss the fact that 70 years ago was 70 years ago, and since then a whole new generation of people are living in the region. Israelies who don't feel obligated to have Israel but don't want anti-Semitism abroad, and palestinians who don't mind staying where they were born, inside the 48 borders, but want a decent live inside of it. No leader from any place on earth is working towards them. Israeli leaders want the whole country for themselves, and Palestinian leaders also want the whole land for themselves. Neither is plausible without serious loss of life. So stop being so one-sided and actually acknowledge there are two sides to this conflict, and that all parties are reaponsible. Israel would give anything in the world to have peaceful rulers in Gaza.
All the evidence tells us this is not true.
I was with them until that comment. Israeli people might want that, but the action of the Israeli government has been the opposite. Funny they say 'stop being so one-sided' and say Israel wants peaceful rulers, like Palestinians don't want that also.
Exactly. This fiction that Palestinians all want Hamas to murder Israelis, or even want them to stay in charge is dangerous, because they open the door to even more moderate people buying the idea that the only thing preventing peace is Palestinians wanting it.
From https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah :
I find comments like this frustrating.
There may be two sides, but there's only one side with an actual military and nukes and only one side running an apartheid. The only reason people aren't referring to Israel as a terrorist state (which they are) is that they're destroying hospitals with bombs dropped from planes and shooting news reporters with guns held by soldiers in military uniforms.
The other side has no military, has been blockaded for sixteen years, is terrorized and killed at will without recourse, and isn't actually allowed to leave.
What makes Israel the criminal here is the power they wield and how they've chosen to use it.
So sure, yeah, there are two sides, yes, but the two sides are very, very different.
You could have said the same thing 70 years ago about the leader if mandatory Palestine who was appointed by the British colonizers and collaborated with Nazis, and that a group like Irgun bravely fought against them. The same Irgun that carried out the Deir Yassin massacre.
What Israel's government is doing is wrong, and they should pay for it. And Israel should pay reparations. But the majority of Israeli's, Palestinians, and American Jews and Muslims just want peace man. This whole thing about who colonized who is silly.
Yeah.
So silly.
Jews deserve reparations from the Ottoman empire.
The difference is Israel still exists, holding Palestine back, it's not even about reparations but stopping the actions on-going today, not just about righting wrongs from the past.
Reparations are crucial in stopping current unjust policies. That is something I believe anyway. A government can't actively acknowledge the existence of injustice as simultaneously support policy that perpetuates it. That is one of the reasons why governments are so reluctant to pay reparations in the first place.
For Israel's continued existence as a state, it is crucial that they pay reparations. This might mean that a few Jewish American young adults might not get to go on a free vacation to Israel, but so be it.
But we live today, not 70 years ago.
Lol today is the result of 70 years ago. Actions don't just stop affecting people's lives because they happened a long time ago. We couldn't possibly live or do anything if we thought that way.
Yes, Israel has responsibility to pay reparations. I have fought for that tirelessly in many ways. I just don't like being called a colonizers when I have never even been there.
Then don't support colonizers. It's pretty easy.
Read through my post history where I have repeatedly condemned the Israeli govt. And then let me know if you think I "support colonizers".
I'm very frustrated that leftists can't frame evil in the world as anything other than the "forces of colonization". It's a very complete and utter misunderstanding of world history and politics.
This should be whom. Better luck next time!
Oh so because the other side is weak they're supposed to just sit idle when they murder pillage and rape? You're disregarding all the brutal fights Israel has fought against its neighbours as "they're strong so boo hoo". They also have thousands dead. They're also terrorized daily. Just because they're stronger doesn't make them less right. Again, they of course have a responsibility in this situation, but come on. Please tell me of any rocket launchers hidden inside a hospital Israel has. Blaming solely israel for the palestinian miserable lives is half the story. A big part of it is their terrorist leadership who take advantage of their poverty to promote a gruesome war they started (not talking about these days, talking about 48, where all the UN agreed on something and they chose to invade. Since then both sides are fully taking part in this war.).
You have no knowledge of the history and it's painfully obvious.
Hamas exists because Israel killed secular resistance movements and funded Hamas' rise.
Oh right, it's not like gaza had a democratic elections where Hamas won... (And then ran a coup murdering the opposition). Israel chose the (what seemed then) less of two greater evil. Clearly they were wrong, and they faced the consequences on saturday.
I don't have a row to hoe in any of this but that alone tells me you're full of shit and apologizing for some evil asshole somewhere in the conflict. The past is always gonna matter whether you want it to or not.
Clearly you don't understand what I mean, since you're not that knowledgeable in this conflict. Palestinians' leaders final goal is to get the 48 borders back. Nothing less and nothing more. And to that I said that it's been 70 years, and you'll need to grab it by conquest to get it, since the people lived there an entire life, and will never give it up. The leaders from both sides need to understand that any further border change between them will only make things worse, and the ones who started wanting to conquer was Palestinians. Now Israel is doing the same, but after many years, in which they got more right wing and more national, because of course they will when their busses are bombed by terrorists on the other side. I'm not saying Israel is clear of charge, I just say that they started better than Palestinians, then got more national as time went, because obviously - their enemies are murdering rapists. Palestinians are consistent with their desire to destroy Israel, Israelies have been building up to it (talking about each of their leaders, a.k.a the ones who matter).
So in other words you really really want me to reject the notion that the past matters, and therefore you can be dismissed outright.
*The distant past. A.k.a, the 48 past. So much has changed since then, including the people themselves. People should act based on how to improve their present and future, not how to improve (avenge) their past.
An eye for an eye leaves Israel/Palestine a smoldering hole in the ground...
No, I think I got that wrong. How does it go?
Another retarded thought-terminating cliche that is making me think you are more and more sus.
What do you stand to gain from trying to manipulate someone like me?
Come on, english is a very large language full of other words you can use besides slurs.
Now you know how I feel when you dumbasses insinuate that the past doesn't matter.
I didn't do that which you can easily tell by reading the conversation up to this point.
I jumped in to comment on your usage of slurs for no reason.
Which is a petty act that does nothing but derail the conversation, but do go ahead and prove my point that you're here to argue in bad faith by quibbling over the use of a word instead of focusing on what really matters: the morality of the Israel/Hamas conflict.
Here, go ahead, retard. The floor is yours:
I said my piece, that there's no need to use slurs when you can use many other words that convey the same meaning.
In reality, there are far more than two sides. At least we should look at four groups: Israel and Palestine, crossed with militant and non-militant.
Thinking in terms of only two sides is a trap, because it invites people (not you, but others who have the same starting point) to justify mass killing in the name of revenge or justice or deterrence whatever label they prefer.
No, there are two sides.
One side, Hamas, the Zionist government, and their supporters.
The other side, the civilians of both cultures who just want their supposed representatives to stop fighting.
Delusional.
i understand you are well intentioned but really also simplistic and generic. what you have said can apply to any conflict just changing the names.
the world through the UN resolutions has clearly indicated who is the oppressor and violators of human rights.
it is the state of Israel itself.
Right now? Yeah, definitely they're violating human rights. But what are they supposed to do given their history? Every Palestinian leadership ever called out for civilians to be "jihad"s (terrorists) and kill as many as possible. I was simplistic because everyone here on lemmy also talks simplisticly. Talk of no nuance and no faults on both sides, mainly say "israel bad", "israel apartheid", "israel should stop existing" - all while forgetting this conflict has two sides. Yes, one side is poorer, but that doesn't make them more just. Both are wrong, but arguably palestinian leadership are the worst here. Being at a huge disadvantage and still choosing to fight a war they'll lose, while in the process keeping their citizens poor. At least Israel evacuated the cities near Gaza, while Hamas blocked people evacuating outside of a warzone.
sorry for late response.
well,is it not true that the entity who denies the right of existence to the other side has been Israel?
is it not true that Israel is a terrorist state by any definition of the word?
and is it not true that Hamad is truely something which if it did not exist, Israel would wish it existed?
and is it not true that that which Israel wishes for, Israel gets?
what are your thoughts on these?
Palestine denies the existence of Israel, even stated by the symbols of Hamas and the PLO, coloring the entire state of Israel as their territory. Now, who actually has the right to that land? The ones who bought those lands in the early 20th century and got a majority vote of the U.N to their creation alongside their neighbours? Or is it the ones who objected since the beginning up until today that no jew can rule any part of that land? The biggest diners of the other side's existence are the Palestinians. They have since the beginning denied the right for a jewish state to exist. Israel started to deny a Palestinian state to exist only after the arabs started an all-out war on Israel.
Terrorist state? What does that even mean considering they Palestinians aren't their citizens? They're a state who has very hostile neighbours right next to them, and that acts with aggression to aggression. No act of violence against civilians has been started by the IDF, while hundreds of acts of violence have started against civilians by Hamas (the PLO don't directly do terrorism, but they pay terrorist jihad's families for killing innocents).
Can you really say that Israel wishes for Hamas? Even after 7/10 can you seriously say that Israel wishes for such a violent terrorist organization to exist right next to their borders? If so then that's some severe case of Stockholm syndrome. Yes, Hamas is simpler to deal with politically, but it's so much more threatening and hard to deal with militarily. How are they supposed to fight people who hide amongst innocents? Hamas is probably the biggest headache to Israel ever. They ruin their relations with Suni arab countries, they make them look bad to the western world by making them bomb civilian infrastructure, and they actively pillage their villages for terror's sake. Seriously, how can Israel wish for that.
Also let's be clear, what Israel wants is the entire land of Israel, including the west bank, all under jewish control. That's obviously their best scenario. Do they get what they wish? No. Do they work for it? Yeah. Can you blame them? Idk. Probably. They really should work more towards creating a Palestinian state in the west bank/gaza, but that could be said for the Palestinian leaders as well, who are still advocating for the entire annexation of Palestinians over the entire land of Israel ("from the river to the sea...").
….or else? Santa’s gonna leave a lump of coal?
America is Israel's bitch. They won't do anything against Israel
I think there are at least two reasonable positions you could adopt that make more sense. Why don't you try one on for size?
First, you could argue that Israel is part of a US proxy war against ... I'm not sure who, but someone. In the distant past, it would have been the USSR. Maybe a war against Islam, depending who you're talking about.
Second, you could argue that the US military industrial complex is happy for war anywhere, because it's more money in their pockets, and they're greedy.
Of course everything is more complicated, so who knows, but that's a starting point for a framework that might help you understand the motives of people in power.
Chamberlain agrees. Willing to negotiate.
What does my garage door opener have to do with any of this?
I believe it's a reference to Nazi appeaser Nevil Chamberlain.
Yes, and Chamberlain got his.
They've been occupying Gaza with their "settlements" for years. What will you do if they continue Mr. President?
The settlements are in the west bank not Gaza.
They do have "settlers" on the border of Gaza as an encroachment tactic. Technically illegal, but it's assumed they're sanctioned.
"Israel should not occupy the Gaza Strip!"
*wink* *wink*
It's almost funny watching people twist themselves into knots over Israel not occupying a territory that morons claim they already occupy, if only people weren't dying because of Hamas terrorists.
What does he have to gain, politically, by putting Israel on notice in this way? Nothing domestically nor geopolitically. He's just going to be stuck holding the bag pointlessly when they retake that land.
Congress is divided because of the Republican party and the invasion of Gaza is surprisingly unpopular. If this gets dragged out the republicans are gonna have another schism on their hands.
I'm glad to see that Bibi's not gonna get away with this
Just to be clear I'm not weighing in on what I think should happen. I'm just saying unheeded commands erode authority (and credibility).
I'm not qualified to assert an appropriate outcome in all of this, but I think that state actors who punish and pawn civilians domestically and abroad are hellish and should be removed by their people. Everyone on every side of every border deserves comfort and security.
Not gonna happen anyway, Gaza was already under occupation once, it was not a happy time to anybody concerned. The goal is the destruction of Hamas. If Fatah wants Gaza after that that's their problem and they can have it.
I think it was possibly Vice that did a documentary on life in Gaza? This was during peacetime and it was fucking awful.
I don’t think America, the country that arguably occupied Afghanistan, gets to take the high road here.
It's possible for two things to be wrong at the same time.
Isn’t it more of a “oh man, don’t do what we did. Oh boy, did that suck” kinda thing?
Whataboutism at its finest, folks. "Murika done did it, so they can't take a stance."
I don’t think Israel would benefit from occupying Gaza, mostly because they have already done that before and know it doesn’t work.
You're missing my point.
Insinuating that because America occupied Afghanistan they don't have the right to make statements about Israel occupying Gaza is absurd.
Frankly, Gaza is already an open air prison. They can't leave, the don't have real autonomy, their food, water, electricity, and health are all effectively controlled by Israel.
The UN general assembly probably does though and they are condemning both hamas and Israel government
I didn't see the interview, so I'm basing this on just the quotes from the linked article, but Biden stopped very short of criticism and appeared to becoming from a strategic "it's a bad plan, do it differently" perspective rather than a moral high-ground perspective.
Which is consistent with US foreign policy, even if I think it's casually glossing over some atrocities in a way I find truly revolting.