The mother of tattoo artist Shani Louk who was paraded semi-naked on a Hamas truck makes a public plea for more information
The mother of a woman whose body was paraded through the streets by Hamas has pleaded for help finding her daughter.
A video showing German tattoo artist Shani Louk on the back of a pickup truck circulated on social media after the Palestinian militant group Hamas attacked Israel on October 7.
Louk had been attending an outdoor "Festival for Peace" party near Kibbutz Urim when the area was targeted. First, rockets were launched, then gunmen and appeared and shot into the crowd, CNN reported. Party attendees told the outlet people immediately started to flee, passing dead bodies on the ground as they tried to escape the massacre.
The attack and resulting conflict has left hundreds of Israelis and Palestinians dead, with Israel's prime minister declaring war.
A video of a young woman with dreadlocks on the back of a pickup truck and surrounded by Hamas soldiers started circulating on social media shortly after the attack. In it, she appears stripped to her underwear, and her legs are bent at unnatural angles, while one soldier grabs her hair. People are also seen spitting on her body.
And some terrorist supporters here on Lemmy were trying to explain to us that they were just casually "transporting" the body of a dead woman and that they weren't doing anything disgusting with her. We all know what islamist terrorists do when they spot a young woman, to pretend that Hamas is any different from ISIS is to be completely delusional.
Palestinians will lose more and more support (mine already) as long as they keep shielding the Islamist animals of Hamas.
EDIT: also thank goodness for !world@lemmy.world, because others like !worldnews@lemmy.ml are run by terrorist supporters (see for yourself in their modlog: https://lemmy.ml/modlog/14788)
So question, can you be anti terrorist and anti Israel?
Why not? Hell I’m Jewish and I think the Israeli govt is regularly in the wrong and I feel for the people of Israel that could have better lives and those the govt harms. I also think Hamas is evidently wretched and those perpetrating these abhorrent acts deserve everything coming to them.
Unfortunately, while I’m sure Hamas will suffer, the civilians of both Israel and Palestine will once again bear the true cost of this conflict.
Jew here too, Netanyahu is a corrupt fascist cunt.
how dare you! don't you know that the Palestinians mine controlled Hitler into doing the holocaust?
the scary part, Netanyahu said this, just less exaggerated.
What's your opinion on Palestinians?
My opinion is that they are a people, caged. The conditions that they live in are far below what they deserve for being human.
That’s my opinion really: they’re humans, just like all others and they deserve to be treated with dignity and to be loved and to be able to sleep knowing that they are safe. They have been deprived of these things for far, far too long and I believe that is deeply wrong.
What’s your opinion on Palestinians?
I strongly disagree with Israel's policies regarding settlements, Palestinians in general, etc.
That does not excuse Hamas or their terrorism
They're both kinda fucked really.
Israel is more fucked because they definitely have the resource to prevent this. How long can you deprive someone of their basic needs before their humanity is stripped away?
That only holds until you realize that Hamas are islamic jahadists. The latter are worse, no question.
Both are crimes under various international laws, some people seem to think you fight one by committing the other
Whats the altenative? Another generation of palestinians lost to the political whims of Netenyahu and the dehumanized at the hands of the far right while calmly waiting for the world to finally stop turning a blind eye? Can they start fighting back after they've been oppressed for 100 years or do we have to wait even longer?
Terrorism is not "fighting back." If they'd solely struck military targets, I would have significantly more empathy for them. I have 0 empathy for terrorism.
Maybe Palestinians could try living in Jordan? Oh, Black September and all that happened.
Or maybe Lebanon would work? Oh, that's how we got Hezbollah, who has basically taken over Lebanon.
Maybe Egypt will open their doors to the Palestinians again? But then again, Rafah border crossing is almost always closed, because Egypt's de facto relationship with the Palestinians could be described as "we like you, but mostly because we hate Israel more".
I sympathize enormously with every normal Palestinian, but Mandatory Palestine will never be a thing again. The so-called State of Israel will continue to exist. It has been too long, and the only humanitarian hope for everyone involved is for Hamas and all related groups to accept defeat. But I don't see that happening, because the conflict isn't just over historical lands and freedom, but to eradicate all Zionists.
so be subjugated or die? That seems barbaric, not humanitarian.
"subjugated"? Don't be inane now. What's your solution, other than Hamas ceasing their terrorist attacks?
The solution would be to end the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank, and granting all Palestinians within those territories full citizenship, voting rights, and economic reparations for the hardship they suffered at the hands of the Israeli state.
Then you wouldn't have the desperate poverty and crowded ghettos that make people desperate enough to join Hamas to begin with.
Yes subjegated. Look up the definition. Don't be inane now.
The alternative would be a secular, progressive, democratic resistance to the occupation, it's a lot easier to win international support if you're not a bunch insane religious fundamentalists (Hamas, not the Palestinian people broadly). I agree with your sentiment 100%, I just don't think Hamas is an organization that's capable of freeing Palestine from Israeli occupation.
Especially since Netanyahu's government literally sent them money because a relatively strong Hamas makes it easier for him to justify the ongoing genocide/ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
I don’t support either group here. But the reason this continues to be such a contentious issue is the decades of mistakes and extreme conflict that lead to the current state of things there. The entire area has been in cyclic conflict for hundreds of years, this is merely a continuation of that with the complexities of post ww2 short sighted and racist policies enacted by the allied powers influencing the way things have played out.
Israel is a far right authoritarian state and they are brutal in how they choose to operate. Palestine is a hotbed for terrorism and is equally brutal in the guerrilla tactics they employ.
External influence from western and Islamic countries fuels the flames. It’s a disaster and a mess.
There’s genuinely no two state solution. As long as these two groups share this place they will always fight. And there’s no resolution that doesn’t see everyone else dragged into yet another proxy war.
Personally I think this will see some of the most major developments in this conflict in decades. The repercussions of this act will be large scale and relentless. But the Israelis will quickly find themselves in a quagmire if they try to occupy Palestine in any major capacity. It won’t be over quickly. Many will die.
But I suspect that’s where we are heading.
There were essentially no Jews (<2%) living in the areas of Israel and Palestine before the Zionist colonization movement in the late 1800's.
You're trying to make it seem like this modern day thing is even remotely related to the past, which it isn't.
There’s a clear distinction between the sort of age of crusades and modern post ww2 geopolitics that generated the current conflict, but to suggest that there’s not been a near continuous level of conflict in the area between Jews, Muslims, and Christians is disingenuous.
This is like saying the BLM movement in America has nothing to do with slavery.
It's not disingenuous. Jewish people literally just weren't there until very recently. You're talking like 1000+ years ago.
This is the central question everyone can't agree on, right? Which group that conquered the region and eradicated their enemies has the "rights" to the land? I'm seriously ignorant on the subject, and more than happy to delete this comment if it's not really adding to anything, but we're calibrating our standards of who has the rights to a region based on what the latest Empire said, be it Ottomans or Romans or however far back we want to go, until we're talking literally Neolithic folks showing up, right? I'm not religious, so there's a critical part of this conflict I simply cannot fundamentally understand.
The difference between making claims based on occupation in the late 1800s versus late 800s seems arbitrary, to me. That said, I know that can sound patently ridiculous, since we're talking generations we can count on one hand versus the same number of Empires controlling the land: so this is where I throw my hands up and just cry a little. Solidarity to everyone suffering oppression and terrorism, in whatever forms they take.
Sure, you can always be hated by everybody. That's generally my MO in most things. I think Hamas is a terrorist Islamic group and the Likud are ur-fascists.
Of course
You can do anything as long as you work hard and believe in yourself
I don't think that's true :(
Not if you have a smooth brain, no
Both things can be bad… you know that? Right?
And sometimes one side is much worse than the other.
So which far right extremist theocracy is worse in this case?
I'd go with the one parading executed civilians and spitting on their bodies tbh.
Idk, the ones who decided they didn't like the borders they agreed to so they took it and started bombing schools, apartments, parks, and the like as "defending our land" when the locals pushed back seem pretty equal here.
this sadly does not narrow it down
Did you just start following this conflict yesterday? Lmao.
Mine is gone.
I never exactly condoned them, but this is the first time in my adult life they've gone out of their way to personally harm innocent civilians. It's such a shocking and brutal display that I don't know how anyone could carry water for them anymore -- at the very least, this makes them equal to the Israeli government, so someone whose horrified at the treatment of Palestinians by Israel should be just as horrified here.
It bears mentioning that in no way does Hamas represent all Palestinians, too. Hamas is hurting them too by hiding in civilian buildings and using the people effectively as shields. It's unconscionable to hide in hospitals and mosques after doing something like this, they're purposely daring Israel to make everyone around them into collateral.
It is in everyone's benefit for Hamas to be wiped out and destroyed.
Except the there are only three real ways for Israel to kill Hamas. Getting rid of every Palestinian so the are no Palestinians to get angry and turn to desperate measures. Enforcing an authoritarian state where all civil liberties are taken away from Palestinians. Or firmly rejecting expansion into areas where Palestinians live, harshly prosecuting any who discriminate against Palestinians, letting them self govern, and energizing their economy to lift standards of living drastically. An end to everything Israel does to hurt Palestinians and help themselves that Israel can do. Huge concessions to try and make up for all the shit they've done.
The ethnical option will clearly not be chosen by the current government, and the US, obligated by their desire to have allies in the middle east, will help them try to accomplish some combination of the first two options. It's awful.
where was this outrage when Israel targeted civilians?
Oh it was there, I was outraged at that as well. I believe it was Israel who accidentally killed an American journalist and refused to release evidence for some time?
There are no good guys here, by a longshot.
"Accidentally"
This is what Islamic fascism does when they think they have enough power. A Turkish leader said "Democracy is a train which you can use to reach your target."
It's possible to oppose Hamas and the Israeli government at the same time. Hamas being fundamentalist terrorists doesn't retroactively justify the Israeli government forcing millions of people into ghettos without access to clean water and regularly subjecting them to state violence. Or the ongoing settlement program, where Palestinian towns are forcibly evacuated and their property/homes stolen and given to Israeli settlers.
Two things can Both be bad at once, especially since the only reason Hamas exists is because of the desperation of Palestinians caused by Israeli state policy. Netanyahu's government even gave them money at one point, because Hamas is good for his political goals. Hamas prevents a more democratic, progressive resistance to the occupation from forming, which makes it easier for Netanyahu's government to justify their ongoing genocide/ethnic cleansing.
Ok but one of those is funny "reason:explaining antisemitism to a Jewish person"
I didn't read what they actually said but that got a solid chuckle from me
I didn't know the pope of jewdaism was a lemmee admin. What an honour.
Wasn't that what she was actually wearing? Why do people assume assaults occurred?
Colonizers versus natives, and you side with the colonizers who created this situation. Lmao.
Damn fucking straight i do the israelis are clearly in the right in this conflict the palestinians have soiled their bed and must now come too terms with it being time too lie in it.
Clapping for the fascists commiting slow genocide, bold move cotton.
And what will Germany do about one of their people being murdered in this way? Nothing. They'll hide behind their mask of progressive European nation, and do nothing, while likely supporting the bad guys, just like they do with Russia.
You can't get Germans to do anything unless you wave money in their face
What prompted this tantrum?
You must have missed the part where a young German citizen was murdered. I'm a Canadian and my government is very similar to Germany's in that they're all talk. All image, but ultimately they only care about money
What do you think germany can do in this situation?
So the Germans are supporting the bad guys, including Russia. Aha, good to know!
Besides, what would you like them to do? Less talk more invasion of Palestine?
you know, the Canadian reputation has gone on for too long, you guys seem to be neo-liberals, or Genocidal fascists
Yeah I grew up being told Canada was so great, but as I got older all I see is nothing but bullshit
seems more like you have an unhealthy media diet, considering you have decided on "genocidal fascist"
How is it genocide to kill terrorists, terrorist isn't an ethnic identity. Unless you're saying that all Palestinians are terrorists, which I never said. I can tell the difference between a Hamas militant and a Palestinian civilian even if you can't. I grew up in a war, I actually lived it, unlike your modern American/colonialist couch bound ass.
you're the one calling for some revenge killing, also I couldn't care less what war you grew up in, just as little as you don't care where I'm from and just assume me to be an "American/Colonialist", unless you have any interesting opinions on Eastern Europe you want to share as well? maybe some being upset about the US stopping the dual genocides in the Balkans?
ya, we did the whole blood and soil bit in the 1930-1945, we have since decided that ethnic cleansing is not the answer to someone getting killed.
or what would you say Germany do? go and start slaughtering the people in Gaza? maybe dig out the old playbooks, what was it 10
jewsMuslims for every German killed? is that what you are calling for?I guess your answer is to do nothing. Kill Germans? It's ok, we would hate to be seen as intolerant to terrorists, so just kill our citizens. But in truth, Germans would glass the entire continent if it meant they get more money
If someone is murdered, do we hold the entire society accountable or just the one person who committed the crime?
there are two options for what Germany could do, Nothing, or invade all of Israel, institute an occupational goverment and then rebuild the Israeli government with both Jews and Palestinians.
on the other hand, your "do something" seems to be entirely kill everyone in Gaza as revenge against Hamas.
Israel has German submarines (the German version, not the worse export version) that were gifted to them, especially suited to be used in the Persian Gulf, on the coast of Iran, where Hamas' money and equipment come from.
Damn krauts.
Can someone please explain to me why both Israel and Hamas (not the Palestinian people as a whole, just Hamas) can't be condemned for the atrocities they have committed?
Because Lemmy seems to be telling me I have to pick a side and, as far as I can tell, both sides have committed atrocities. Why should I pick either side? Why can't I just say both are evil and not support either side? Must I take a side in every conflict? Because I sure as hell didn't when Iran and Iraq were warring.
You can, Hamas is fucking terrible, you should just add the context that the only reason Hamas even exists is due to Israeli policy. Trapping millions of people in tiny, resource-poor ghettos as part of an ongoing ethnic cleansing, you've gotta expect some of them are going to get desperate enough to join a religious fundamentalist terror organization.
Also Netanyahu's government literally sent them money because a democratic, secular, progressive resistance to Israeli occupation would make it harder to justify their aggression towards the Palestinian population, and a strong Hamas makes that less likely.
Same way 9/11 is pretty objectively a consequence of US intervention in the middle east, but the people who did 9/11 are still terrorists who (imo) deserved to die, the reason it's good to mention that it was a consequence of US policy is so that we can avoid creating the circumstances that lead to terror attacks like that in the future, and to avoid causing massive amounts of suffering as a result of military interventions in foreign countries.
Hamas is one shitty side effect among many of genocidal Israeli government policy and imo serves to aid and abet that policy by giving the Israeli state an excuse to crack down harder on Palestinians.
Most people can't handle nuance so for many issues are either black or white
My side is the good side and therefore is justified in its actions! It can't do something wrong against those monsters!
"Both are evil" rhetoric is often used to justify or obfuscate one sides crimes, and because on the broader scale, Israel unfolds destruction and death at a higher scale, so there's a lot of intense emotions from thise keyed into Palestinian struggle. That's why so many want you to pick.
It is important to remember Hamas ≠ Palestinians, and Israeli government ≠ Israeli citizens. Yes, they live in a colonial state, but Hamas doesn't care if they try to fight to change it or not, furthermore, most left leaning people are in colonial states or in former colonizing states so they are basically saying they think violence against them is justified too. Everyone should be aware of their privileges and work to dismantle the systems that create them, but that doesn't mean they need be killed in order to realize that!
It's ridiculous because you're absolutely right too, Israeli calling them all "human animals" and doing a total blockade of Gaza is a war crime, but so is what happened to Shani Louk. In the world I am fighting for, the people responsible for both would be held accountable.
I can't think of a single successful revolution that didn't end up with significant civilian casualties. Revolutions only arise because of extreme discontent among a population about their socioeconomic position.
Remember the Reign of Terror in France? Washington's campaign against the Iroquois in America? Revolution is bloody and revolution leads to civilian casualties, but at its core it's caused by systematic oppression by the government and inaction on behalf of the population.
By the way, Gazans have tried peaceful protest. It got thousands of people shot.
A gross oversimplification. Will civilians inevitably get got in the crossfire or be targeted by reactionaries during protests as part of the revolution? Sure. But there's a difference between that and seeking out and targeting a site without a military presence and civilians from more than just Israel.
Not a good example to cite since that destabilized revolutionary france and helped create the conditions for Napoleon to rise to power.
Again, a revolution is bloody because of the people reacting against it, it doesn't have to be because your side decided to target civilians and perpetuate cycles of violence. The revolutions that created long lasting new paradigms didn't serve as vehicles to enact vengeance.
I find it's usually best to just avoid any social media around major and divisive news events like this. Specifically where people are allowed to comment and express their opinions. Everyone just gets more extreme in their views, are convinced they are absolutely right, and there is never any room for nuance.
I get it, but it saddens me to think how many people might be around me both irl and online that would be alright with or even happy about the death of unarmed people of all ages and genders. Or that the people on the left in particular (since that's my camp) suddenly don't care about sexual violence if it's being perpetrated against someone they've decided deserved it or was a legitimate target because of social grievances
I get that too, but I dont think social media is really a great place to get a representative idea of how people are truly feeling about things.
A lot of social media tends to evolve into echo chambers, so not great for wider views. As mentioned too, it's not great for nuance. While I think most people are probably capable of getting the nuance of a situation, when "discussing" things online, having to type your thoughts out into a few small paragraphs, that all just seems to get completely lost, and only the bullet points, which are often the most extreme parts, remain.
Lemmy is also seemingly filled with tankies and people that seem like they want to be edgy just to be edgy or specifically to push certain viewpoints/ideologies. And considering that it's not a widely adopted platform, I think it's especially not representative of people as a whole.
And of course with the anonymity of the internet, people know they can say stuff just to get other people frustrated or angry with no consequences to their own personal lives.
There are a lot of people on the left who think that they oppose things by adopting the reverse of whatever Mainstream Media says or by unironically endorsing what the right wing fear mongers about.
For example, if the Mainstream media dehumanises Palestinians, then they should dehumanise Israelis back. Opposing Israeli apartheid is not only the same as supporting Hamas but not supporting Hamas means your don't REALLY care about Palestinian liberation.
Another example being that liberals and conservatives fear monger about how Palestianians all want to kill Israelis and anyone who supports the settler state, and so some people on the left adopt that as their actual viewpoint in order to "oppose" the right.
I think the issue is, one is UN recognized state supported officially by the biggest military power in the world, spending billions in tax payer money in aid. While the other are people who are living in the biggest open prison in the world, get water, gas, electricity, and mobility shutdown constantly. And barley have any voice as media suppressed their truth.
Now when the state kills people, with no guns or weapons, in front of the cameras, on the streat nothing happened. When the other do the same, presidents all over the world not only condem the act put also make it clear they support the state that publicly committing war crimes.
Hamas is evil and anyone on here supporting them are complicit in supporting evil.
Hamas is a monster fed by Israeli antagonism because feeding those trying to coexist peacefully prevents colonization. They build a monster to fight in order to get more support from people who simply want the monster to go away. All the while, they move to accomplish their real goal of getting rid of Palestinians like other evil empires have attempted to do to Jewish people for millenia. It's a fucking tragedy to see people that should know the pain of discrimination more than anyone, perpetuate the cycle of violence. Theocratic nationalism is a sin against humanity.
I could easily say:
Israel is evil and anyone on here supporting them is complicit in supporting evil.
But their evil isn't as flashy and sensational
Whatabboutism at its best. Lovely
Not really whataboutism, since both are complicit in the current conflict.
That was not my intention. It was to show that blanket statements are cheap and easy to make.
In normal circumstances you dont support any of the sides. When one side kills hundreds of innocents of the other side and takes hostages you help the other side deal with the damage.
How do you mean?
Send thoughts and prayers of course.
You'd be the guy saying Native Americans are "evil" for fighting against European colonizers.
Are you saying that europeans have a historical claim to America from BCE???
Different scenario because European colonizers actually had a home.
Where the fuck are the Jews supposed to go?
Wherever they want? There's tons of other places for the Israelis to go make lives for themselves. Who the fuck cares if they have "a state" or not? Just go fucking live and don't fuck shit up for yourselves or the people around you.
Demanding a "safe space" for your particular genetic deviation in this day and age is nothing more than nationalism. The Jewish people have an established history that encompasses the entire planet. What difference does it make if they have a "state" or not? Do you think the millions of non-practicing jews around the world give a shit?
Disclaimer: The people saying Jews shouldn't exist are ignorant, evil assholes. Also, the jews saying they have a right to bulldoze Palestinian homes are ignorant, evil assholes.
Fuck off with your religious/ethnic bullshit and figure out how to live alongside other fucking people.
So you believe in kicking 10 million people out of their homes and telling them to just figure it out?
Like before, or now? Which one do You oppose?
Did they bulldoze a Palestinian farm to get their home?
Did you even read anything I wrote or did you just fucking knee-jerk to shitheel zionist talking points? You sound like a shitty AI bot.
Funny bit about the AI bot because when I asked you about Native American reservations it's like you didn't have an answer bc no one programmed you with that response yet.
No, we don't believe in kicking 10 million Palestinians out of their homes and telling them the Israelites now live there
Who cares if they have a state or not? Did you magically forget 6 millions innocent jews vanishing in ww2? Who would protect the jewish race (yes it's a race, according to everyone in the world sadly) besides themselves? They 100% should have a country, and they 100% shouldn't have gotten the land of israel. But who gave them it? The world. The UN vote. So blaming them is not really fair. Ever since getting it from the UN, they did nothing but keep it safe, because again, who would defend their race but themselves.
Do you feel the same way about Native American reservations?
I'm sorry, but what point are you trying to make?
Asking you a question, how do you feel about Native American "safe spaces"?
Sealions?
Sealioning is when you relentlessly ask for evidence, even when you know you're going to ignore it.
I'm asking for his opinion, which I suspect he won't give because he knows it's going to make him look some kind of way.
People say that sometimes, but I think it's a good question. What would be your answer?
The allies should have given them land in europe or america instead they did imperialism and now we are here.
So honestly probably anywhere else
I think they should have made Israel from a piece of Germany.
My take is they should have given the jewish people Kalingrad.
I think that Zionism drew them to the region. They wanted to go there.
Germany would have been better though, in hindsight.
Should have, would have, could have.
Who the fuck care, where are the Jews supposed to go right now?
Where are the Palestinians supposed to go?
You both are getting tangled up in victim vs. offender. The reality is that even if there was a place for one of the groups to go and live in peace, both sides would still fight tooth and nail about who is allowed to stay. Jerusalem is sky-daddy's resort and both want to possess it.
Reconciliation before secularism is impossible.
I care so .. me?
It sure is easy to care about decisions someone made 80 years ago instead of dealing with the real life problems of present day.
that is dealing with them.
step 1 - understanding
I mean it would have been better to give them a chunk of Germany.
Idk maybe they should have not done the exact same terrible things hamas is now doing. I think hamas is wrong and evil, but they didnt cast the first stone.
That's such shortsighted opinion that if all humanity followed it there would be not a piece of the Earth left to live on. People don't automatically turn terrorist and torture civilians even if they go to war. But in this case they choose to and do cause increased suffering to others beyond whats necessary to win the fight because they enjoy when they can cause others to suffer. It's sick and deviant. No excuse.
If they were more civilized (e.g. not rapping and torturing civilians) maybe there would be dozen of countries and organizations helping them with necessities and asylum but who in their healthy mind would go there to be humanitarian risking to be tortured, raped and made their body paraded through their streets?
I hear they've stopped doing rapping, and not just because rap music isn't as popular there.
When the wars are over, people in all other conflicts have generally gone home. Sierra Leone, Rwanda, america, Ukraine before, maybe Ukraine again soon, Poland, France, Belgium, Egypt, and Germany. When the war is over, people return home and begin rebuilding.
If the followers of judaism want to go home, I'm sure they'd be welcomed home and allowed to re/immigrate quickly and easily to the nations their parents fled from. Most could claim full citizenship quickly due to their parents' citizen status or the parents of their parents.
I don't think any Jewish person willing to live peacefully should be made to leave Palestine (if it ever gets "liberated"). They also built a home and became part of the area, many without any fault of their own. Imagine just being born there into this mess. This has been going on for 75 years, people have lived and died already. It would be wrong again to de-home people. This has been the issue from the start. There is enough infrastructure in current-day Israel to be enough for everyone to live and prosper with dignity.
There has to be a solution that works for everyone, with the smallest number of casualties. It might take decades, but what's another couple of decades compared to 75 years of Israeli oppression?
That being said, settlers should give the homes they stole back immediately.
It must be lovely to have such a simplistic world view. I wish I was as sure about anything as you are about this notoriously complicated subject.
How is killing parents in front of their children, kidnaping these children, filming yourself with said children crying and showing them as trophies , crashing a festival and murdering over 200 participants a complicated subject ?
Maybe think about reconsidering your own views of if the world if you support these acts.
it's almost like the entire region is nothing but two sides led by religious radicals who believe that it is their task to purge the other side.
there are plenty of cases where anti-arab terrorist did similar, often but not always as part of the military, one of who is the current Israeli minister of internal security.
With the exception of the festival attack you could just as easily be describing the IDF. Hamas and the IDF are evil.
Did I say I support them? I just said speaking out it as good v evil, black v white is simplistic. Do you disagree?
No, but you’re defending them. What makes them different really than any mass killers trying to get what they want through violence?
You’ve gotta be one of those people that are just mad at society and want to lash out, seeing that anyone that doesn’t agree with you must be punished.
There’s no way you would go out of your way for any other reason. You need therapy.
I'm defending them because the world has thrown them away and they don't have a propaganda arm of their government to sway public opinion. Without people like me speaking to the struggle and humanity of the Palestinians they become otherized. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_(philosophy)
Hamas is evil, they’re a literal terrorist organization that uses fear and violence as their primary tools and methods. The situation Hamas operates in is absolutely nuanced but saying a terrorist organization is evil and supporting a terrorist organization makes you complicit in supporting evil is not an indicator of a simplistic world view, it’s stating an objective fact. If anything you’re the one expressing a simplistic worldview by ignoring the obvious truths of the situation and its various pieces in favor of obfuscating the parts of the situation that are self evident and clear.
You just hand waved a bunch of shit and replied with "No You." This position holds no water.
Idk man, they remind me of Hezbolla. Terrorist organization with social programs. They wanted the destruction of Israel and on multiple occasions used the phrase "exterminate the Jews".
Hamas is an evil organization, by evil I mean genocide, apartheid, terror, and fear being their governing styles. They're just less successful at their genocide than China is.
I don't know what to tell you, but not Hamas or the Israeli government are interested in peace, in fact many members of the current government were anti-arab terrorists beforehand, and now some guy who got his kicks murdering Muslims in mosques, and praising soldiers who openly execute children as heroes is in charge of the police, and a "settler"(see imperial expansion) in charge of the military, and of course the "Palestinians aren't even people" PM they have.
this is what racism and ethnostate bullshit brings
That’s well put, and I couldn’t agree more.
supporters of Hamas or the Israeli government got mad
But they have no power. They are in a glorified prison and that prison keeps getting smaller. They want to exterminate the people keeping them in that prison. How on earth does that make them anything like one of the 2 most powerful countries in the world trying to make a genetically homogeneous china?
Israel unilaterally left gaza around 20 years ago.
I’ve given you as much of a response as your comment was worth. Have a good day.
Heaven forbid you examine yourself. I can have good day because my country has a military and government to protect my human rights. I'm sure yours does too. Palestinians don't. The only thing they have left to fight for their own humanity is terrorism. But that's not simple, so lets just call them evil.
I’d suggest taking your own advice, buddy.
I did and it turns out Geopolitics is just as simple as Trump says! Thanks for setting me straight, I thought that a thousand year conflict was complicated but if I just call one side evil it gets so much simpler. Thank you so much, buddy.
The purpose of using more words than 'no you' is expressed in the comment.
Ends justify the means sort of thing?
Who are you responding to? Because this makes no sense as a response to me.
You seemed to be implying Hamas isn't black and white terrible. I was wondering if you thought that because their bad means (terrorism and corpse defiling) are justified by their good (or grey) cause.
Well aren't you just a sensationalist. I think its not black and white due to the humanitarian atrocities perpetuated on the palestinian people by the israeli government and its people. These are the chickens coming home to roost. When we see videos of bullies getting their comeuppance on the internet its always cheering for the little guy, but as soon as that bully is a country you support it seems a lot of people on the internet put their blinders on.
No I don't cheer for the little guy getting their comeuppance, especially when the 'little guy' it is just taking their rage out against bystanders. Would you agree that rape, murder, and defiling corpses, especially for the purpose of terrifying other people is bad? No matter what the end/cause?
It is, now, black and white because Hamas made it so . They went way of deviant-psychos to make sure no one can doubt they are the scum.
They could have e.g. ask for international help, go public etc. They choose to cause suffering so they don't want to improve their living conditions they want to worsen them for others.
But Reddit and Lemmy keep telling me Hamas are the oppressed good guys! /S
I am yes to see that on Lemmy in the way you describe /: seems like everyone agrees that killing civilians is wrong, including when Israel does it.
you missed the Marxists from lemmygrad who yesterday kept cheering for Hamas and kept downplaying their savagery
Ah okay, so when you said lemmy, you meant lemmygrad specifically
Marxists and the far-left are also spread all over Lemmy, not just lemmygrad, you could see more pro-terrorist comments from other instances. Their pattern is usually the same: rebrand it as "resistance", downplay the fact that they targeted mainly civilians, and rewrite the facts by claiming for example that the woman was just being transported for burial.
Exactly. I’m a far-leftist, and I’m as disgusted with leftist hot takes the same way I was when poor old defenseless Russia invaded Ukraine and started murdering their children.
I’ve blocked and purged so many leftist creators in 24 hours it is unreal. Spreading legit anti-Semitic (really anti-Jew) conspiracy theories (“curious how nobody stopped it” and the like). Reframing these terrorists as freedom fighters like you said. Blaming this on the U.S. somehow (because we made Iran do this via Hamas as proxy; but Iran has clean hands don’t worry they are just another oppressed peoples).
Far too many leftists, like their right wing nut counterparts, are contrarians at heart. This is what happens when political ideology becomes a personality trait; it becomes akin to a religion.
So thoroughly disgusted by it all. Bad enough what’s happening over there in Israel and Palestine right now; bad enough with all the innocent lives being lost; but then to justify industrial grade rape and murder of men, women, and children? And cheer Palestinians on as they record, edit, and upload their barbarity?
I’d like to believe that a lot of it are disinformation ops, but the sad reality is probably that a fair number of people have nothing left to live for because their lives are shit so the world burning down for others isn’t such a big deal for them.
hit the nail on the head with that. I've seen so many leftists horseshoe into this perverted self righteousness. and it is even more frustrating when they act like they are directly involved in a conflict they really have nothing to do with.
Well fucking said.
Yes but lemmygrad and hexbear are hardly representative of the fediverse.
Of course, I don't think I implied that. What I meant to say is that they were very active yesterday on any thread about Hamas' terrorist attack to defend them.
Yeah I hear that. I’ve definitely been liberally blocking instances
How does one block an instance? That's not a feature on Lemmy, at least not on personal settings.
Sync and Connect can do it. Possibly other apps as well. It's also coming up in the next version as a lemmy-wide feature.
On boost you can mute instances.
No, but the original person this discussion started with did imply that.
What about ML?
Not to mention how they see Palestinians as pawns
They almost always circlejerk themselves into admitting one of the reasons they're so giddy about civilian slaughter is because they think it'll mean resources will be diverted from Ukraine so daddy Putin can conquer it and genocide those kulaks like grampappy Stalin did!
I believe your instance has hexbear blocked. They were all over the top of /All yesterday celebrating these attacks and being generally immature. I even saw one post wishing Bernie Sanders was dead after he released a statement condemning the attacks.
I don't understand why some instances keep being federated with them.
Actually seems like lemmy.world is linked to hexbear.I was wrong, they are not linked.
They're smart, they spread over different instances. Blocking a single instance helps but won't stop them from trying to influence the Fediverse.
Maybe you just weren't as active then, or not subscribed to the most active communities. I wasn't too active over the weekend and here's how I'm finding out
Not really. The two instances that aren't on the blocked list don't actually point to real domains. And if they are managing to sneak through lemmy.world, somebody should let the admins know about it.
Aha! I only checked on lemmy.world itself but didn't inspect the instance closely, it just had the same name.
The entire situation is fubar. I feel for the citizens of both Israel and Palestine as both countries are just horrible to each other. To me it feels like there is no good side, whatever you choose, you end up with one form of evil x.x
I wish there would be a good way to solve this but I am not sure that this will be fixed any time soon. Hopefully the bloodshed will be minimal, because hoping for none at all would be futile
I can see how it feels that way when looking at a snapshot of the conflict (of any conflict) without knowing/examining any history or material conditions
I don't understand what you mean, would you elaborate?
Someone hasn't been to hexbear and lemmygrad today.
Literally in this thread right now.
https://lemmy.world/comment/4279203
Yeah and the Hamas supporting comments are downvoted to hell. Where is the problem?
In this thread yeah, but in other ones they're at the top.
Which ones?
Here, for example: https://lemmy.world/comment/4223593
Or https://lemmy.world/comment/4224328
That seemed like a pretty calm and rational discussion about this horrible situation with people on both sides getting upvoted and the pro Hamas people at the bottom mostly getting down voted. Seems fine to me.
24 up, 6 down
It's not a pro-Hamas comment. People who see the world in black and white like you are fucking scary man.
Looks to me more like a healthy discussion /:
24 up, 6 down
Just keep reading the replies from V H. He gets more apologist as you go farther down.
I disagree with this person but they aren't exactly Hamas supporters. I was expecting something more clear than just comments that could only vaguely be regarded as supportive/excusing of violence.
We have different definitions of "vaguely", I guess.
This person is not excusing killing civilians, they're shifting the blame to Israel as a colonizer. This is a legitimate point to make and discuss with others.
I think you might be reading too much into it.
https://lemmy.world/post/6485742
Most there are like "yeah murdering and raping innocent civilians is bad but what choice do the poor Palestinians have after Israel stole their land".
Top 8 comments in that thread condemn it. The ninth one is downvoted to hell.
There are no good guys in this story.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
A video showing German tattoo artist Shani Louk on the back of a pickup truck circulated on social media after the Palestinian militant group Hamas attacked Israel on October 7.
Party attendees told the outlet people immediately started to flee, passing dead bodies on the ground as they tried to escape the massacre.
The attack and resulting conflict has left hundreds of Israelis and Palestinians dead, with Israel's prime minister declaring war.
A video of a young woman with dreadlocks on the back of a pickup truck and surrounded by Hamas soldiers started circulating on social media shortly after the attack.
"This morning my daughter Shani Louk, a German citizen who was with a tourist group in the south of Israel, was kidnapped by Palestinian Hamas.
Comments underneath her photos are now full of messages hoping she is alive, and condemning the war, and the actions of the Hamas fighters in the video.
The original article contains 466 words, the summary contains 153 words. Saved 67%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
I’m sure that western media will handle this news in a completely rational, reasonable, and non-inflammatory way.
I don't know if anyone can cover things this horrible entirely rationaly. But I hope they at least examine their bias.
Don't worry, they won't
Look: I'm a very vocal critic of the way media covers Israel and its far right ruling party, but I feel like this is a terrible place to go to reading this.
War is hell. Terrorism is hell. What happened to this woman sand others is tragic. I hope this woman is alive and is recovered, I hope hostilities end as soon as possible, and I hope the treatment of Palestinians improves, and that Hamas and the Israeli far right are both disempowered of their ability to cause harm.
I believe you believe that
What is a rational, reasonable, non-inflammatory way to handle such a story, in your opinion?
By not isolating the single worst instance in over 500 deaths as being representative of both the entire conflict and movements behind it. It took a lot of atrocities to get us to this point in the first place.
War crimes this bad are not the problem with media coverage.
What preceded the conflict?
Dancing at a music festival
Care to go back further?
No because the event we are talking about here is a woman's body being dragged around. We're not talking about the entirety of the conflict right now.
Indeed, it's truly an isolated event in a historical vacuum
Alright let's hear your defense of this
The amount of time and energy I'm willing to spend doing so matches your willingness and/or ability to change your mind.
Cool so in this thread about this specific incident you want to have a general discussion about war coverage in the West but without listing a single thing