I tried, I really did
I've been an IT professional for 20 years now, but I've mainly dealt with Windows. I've worked with Linux servers through out the years, but never had Linux as a daily driver. And I decided it was time to change. I only had 2 requirements. One, I need to be able to use my Nvidia 3080 ti for local LLM and I need to be able to RDP with multiple screens to my work laptop running Windows 10.
My hope was to be able to get this all working and create some articles on how I did it to hopefully inspire/guide others. Unfortunately, I was not successful.
I started out with Ubuntu 22.04 and I could not get the live CD to boot. After some searching, I figured out I had to go in a turn off ACPI in boot loader. After that I was able to install Ubuntu side by side with Windows 11, but the boot loader errored out at the end of the install and Ubuntu would not boot.
Okay, back into Windows to download the boot loader fixer and boot to that. Alright, I'm finally able to get into Ubuntu, but I only have 1 of my 4 monitors working. Install the NVIDIA-SMI and reboot. All my monitors work now, but my network card is now broken.
Follow instructions on my phone to reinstall the linux-modules-extra package. Back into Windows to download that because, you know, no network connections. Reinstall the package, it doesn't work. Go into advanced recovery, try restoring packages, nothing is working. I can either get my monitors to work or my network card. Never both at the same time.
I give up and decide it's time to try out Fedora. The install process is much smoother. I boot up 3 of 4 monitors work. I find a great post on installing Nvidia drivers and CUDA. After doing that and rebooting, I have all 4 monitors and networking, woohoo!
Now, let's test RDP. Install FreeRDP run with /multimon, and the screen for each remote window is shifted 1/3 of the way to the left. Strange. Do a little looking online, find an Issue on GitHub about how it is based on the primary monitor. Long story short, I can't use multiple monitor RDP because I have different resolution monitors and they are stacked 2x2 instead of all in a row. Trust me I tried every combination I could think of.
Someone suggested using the nightly build because they have been working on this issue. Okay, I try that out and it fails to install because of a missing dependency. Apparently, there is a pull request from December to fix this on Fedora installs, but it hasn't been merged. So, I would need to compile that specific branch myself.
At this point, I'm just so sick of every little thing being a huge struggle, I reboot and go back into Windows. I still have Fedora on there, but who would have thought something that sounds as simple as wanting to RDP across 4 monitors would be so damn difficult.
I'm not saying any of this to bag on Linux. It's more of a discussion topic on, yes, I agree that there needs to be more adoption on Linux, but if someone with 20 years of IT experience gets this feed up with it, imagine how your average user would feel.
Of course if anyone has any recommendation on getting my RDP working, I'm all ears on that too.
I read the first paragraph and saw your prerequisites included working with nvidia.
That is a non-starter, right there. You can blame Linux for a whole lot of little flaws, but most of the blame should go to your hardware vendor for providing shitty support for Linux.
Isn't most of the AI training work in the world done on Linux using Nvidia GPUs (in the cloud)? I guess it's a different use case...
Probably dedicated vector/tensor coprocessors these days - which don’t have to work with your monitor layout or desktop setup!
And it also sucks in the cloud. Depending on the scenario there might not be many alternatives, though. CUDA is pretty much the standard in machine learning.
ROCm has hints of adoption, but it's only just getting started.
Having spent the weekend trying to get it working on WSL2 for lulz, I can honestly say it's just not there yet. Most of the issue is that AMD cards aren't exposed properly through WSL, but it was worth a shot.
Sure. But by the amount of adoption CUDA has, and the amount of GPUs / AI accelerators NVidia pumps out and into the datacenters of the world... AMD better hurry (and deliver an excellent product/ecosystem) or they won't be part of the AI boom.
thats guiless.
x11 and wayland support (what matters for DESKTOP use) are complete garbage
Popos has out-of-the-box nvidia support that works great
Works with CUDA and RDPing on a 2x2 monitor grid?
System76 (who makes popos) has their own CUDA repo for their NVIDIA implementation, but I don’t think it’s installed by default. So there’s a tweaked version to work on popos, but I’ve never tried it. From some cursory googling, it doesn’t seem to be too complicated to set up.
I agree. The majority of my issues come down to the manufacturers. I even updated my BIOS to see if it would help with the ACPI issues, but no luck. Motherboard is 3 years old, so it's not like I'm trying this on brand new hardware either.
"Nvidia, fuck you!" - Linus Torvalds
Nvidia is by far the most popular dedicated GPU manufacturer out there. If distros can’t figure out how to make it “just work” then Linux will never take off outside of the nerd market.
It isn't something that is in the distro vendors control. Nvidia do not disclose programming info for their chipsets. They distribute an unreliable proprietry driver that is obfuscated to hell so that noone can help out fixing their problems.
If you use an AMD card it will probably work fine in Windows and Linux. If you use an Nvidia card you are choosing to run windows or have a bad time in Linux.
It doesn't matter whose at fault at the end of the day. If it doesn't just work™️ the average joe will never use it.
The open source vs closed source drivers is a whole separate issue too, and only makes things worse for the noobs.
I'm not the PR department for desktop Linux for everyone man.
People who only have Windows experience see an Nvidia card that is premium priced product with a premium experience and think that this will translate to a Linux environment, it does not. I've been using Linux for like 27 years now and that was my opinion until a couple of years ago.
Hopefully the folks that might read this thread ( like the OP 20 year IT veteran ) can take away that Nvidia cards in linux are the troublesome / subpar choice and are only going to get worse going forwards ( because of the Wayland migration that Nvidia are ignoring ).
That's a great explanation. Knowing next to nothing about Nvidia and Linux, the original comment made it sound as though Linux is just wildly incompetent.
Your comment makes it sound like Nvidia is the graphics version of apple.
Oh yeah. That video of Linus Torvalds giving Nvidia the finger linked elsewhere in this thread was the result of a ton of frustration around them hiding programming info. They also popularised a dodgy system of LGPL'ing a shim which acted as the licence go-between the kernel driver API ( drivers are supposed to be GPL'd ) and their proprietary obfuscated code.
Despite that, I'm not really that anti them as a company. For me, the pragmatic reality is that spending a few hundred bucks on a Radeon is so much better than wasting hours performing arcane acts of fault finding and trial and error.
The problem is Nvidia's drivers, not the distros.
You may as well be saying distros really need to get their shit together on releasing Photoshop for Linux
If someone with no experience installs Linux on their machine, and has to spend 20 hours fixing all of the problems they're not going to stick with Linux. It doesn't matter which distro it is, they're just going to say Linux sucks and never use it again.
There's a pretty big difference between trying to run software for X OS on Y OS, and trying to just make your computer do basic tasks. The average person doesn't know that Nvidia are a bunch of assholes, nor do they care.
I know.
But there's nothing that can realistically be done about it until Nvidia stops being dickheads.
Distros can't constantly hop about putting out fires that Nvidia starts, and neglect the other work they need to do.
Even when they do that, it doesn't work anyway. It's still buggy, systems still break. It really is only Nvidia who can fix their shit drivers, unless the nouveau team make an alternative that's superior to Nvidia's proprietary drivers.
And nah, there's no difference between my Nvidia/Photoshop example. None whatsoever.
I swear, every time one of these posts/comments pops up, the chances root issues are caused by Nvidia hardware is insanely high.
So, I'm coming to learn that about Nvidia. I figured with the 3080 being a few years old now things would be alright. I was wrong.
Yeah, they’re a known pain point
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they’re a known pain point
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What's a decent GPU that behaves nicely with Linux?
I have two AMD Radeon cards for Linux that I'm pretty happy with that replaced a couple of Nvidia cards. They are an RX6800 and an RX6700XT. They were both ex mining cards that I bought when the miners were dumping their ethereum rigs, so they were pretty cheap.
If I had to buy a new card to fill that gap, I'd probably get a 7800XT, but if you don't game on them you could get a much lower end model like an RX7600.
I'd be interested in one that could do gaming and compute stuff. Thank you for the specific recs, I'll check those out!
Most AMD GPUs are good
Are they actually good? Or are they decent?
Because AMD on Windows has a lot of flaws compared to Nvidia. Nvidia can run anything with tons of cutting-edge features and everything is documented. AMD on the other hand, doesn't come close to that kind of support.
AMD does work of course, just not always how it should.
Is it actually good on Linux out of the box? Or does it still require finicking every now and then?
The brand new devices will require a newer kernel but other than that they work out of the box
I had issues with my Nvidia gpu and Wayland Desktops.
Especially with the new Steam Big Picture mode both Linux and Windows being laggy.
AMD on the other hand had one issue in Windows where my friend told me to reinstall the drivers because the second Monitor couldnt be detected at random times when rebooting.
On Linux on the other Hand... zero issues. Literally. I am satisfied how good it works compared to trashy Nvidia having constant issues. Even on Windows I had issues with Nvidia because you need to sign in and download the drivers. Sometimes there is an update and you never know, and wonder why your game doesnt work. Well, because you need the newest update suddenly. Not with AMD on Windows. And on Linux. You dont even need to install amything. Mostly preinstalled Mesa drivers but I am not that certain.
In my experience most things AMD fare pretty well. My 6750 XT is working great. My older RX 580 and Radeon HD 6870 were also pretty solid.
Most of AMD is good. Slightly older is going to be best
Might have Luck with Leap or Tumbleweed because nVidia hosts their own openSUSE driver repos. add nVidia repo to SUSE, GUI select the driver and click OK
Perhaps we could suggest OP other things to try before we suggest they should rip out their GPU. I don't know, basic problem-solving approach, like using the Nouveau or generic Vesa driver to rule out the proprietary Nvidia driver, or a different screen-sharing method to rule out RDP. Which is a proprietary Windows protocol so it may not work perfectly from Linux and with an unusual hardware configuration.
I don’t completely disagree with you. But it’s also a reality I’ve had to deal with myself as well. My personal take is I’d rather avoid the brand altogether if you care about Linux, but I also realize it’s not always possible if you care about - or need, for various reasons - things like CUDA, NVENC and RTX. In this case, OP specifically wants CUDA, and that won’t work without the proprietary driver.
Life is easier with a mediocre workstation card for video outputs, and the Nvidia card doing just CUDA.
From what I've read, I must be the luckiest person in the world. I've been on Linux for 10+ years and only ever had Nvidia hardware. I've never had any issues aside from the occasional Vsync annoyance.
Windows admin here. It was immediately clear to me how this would end:
someone proficient in windows goes back to being a dumb newbie is gonna be frustrating as heck.
being a power user/IT professional most likely means non standard setup
there are very few windows native admins in the linux sphere to test things from a non dev/non user perspective
the companies making „professional“ linux are still not comparable to M$
„professional linux“ would probably be RHEL for you.
you can try and run a windows vm in your linux to try if stuff works then.
your mindset needs to change: you‘re now a guy responsible for implementing rdp correctly, embrace open source and make it work for everyone. See the amount of influence you can actually have.
if you can, consider using windows and linux side by side as long as needed, until stuff works. Find the reasons people abandon windows (i.e. you finally have control).
Just a stream of ideas. Hmu if you have any questions.
All extremely valid points. Especially...
This is the mind set I need. I was most likely so frustrated at the driver issues by this point, I probably didn't give it the go it needed. Like I said when it came to compiling a dev branch, I just said f it. Hopefully I'll get some time in the coming days to approach it with a fresh mindset.
Awesome to hear it. Feel free to update.
This was me. I kept thinking Linux was making things "overly complicated" until I really stopped to consider how extremely complicated it is in Windows or MacOS to do anything, we're just all used to it. Once I re-framed my perspective to that of "a noob that was learning" it made it so much less frustrating and now after learning I see that Linux in most ways does things so much simper.
Now I don't think it's ease-of-use issues that prevent people from going with Linux, it's switching costs. Few have time to learn a new system. Even if it is the easiest to learn.
That's a lesson I learned switching to macos for a few years. After spending that much I basically had no choice but to learn to adapt.
It did make it a lot easier to switch to Linux later on because I've already abandoned a workflow and a set of apps once already.
I completely agree that linux is quite simple. Additionally, it allows for a lot of customization which is nice imo.
Do you think "your average user" would run into something like this? How many people are running 4 monitors?
Grandma loves sitting in front of her 4 ultrawides while discussing the day with her friendly LLM
I run 6 on 2 gpus and it's Just Werked ^TM^ for a few years now. On a Core2 Duo machine even.
This is stupid. While i am all up advocating for foss, trying to argue peoples usecases into non existence is not helping anyone.
My grandparents ran into problems with Linux because they wanted to connect their TV (second monitor) and use team viewer with it (to control it from their phone.
Some of my super non it friends use lots of monitors because who the hell knows why they need this for office stuff.
Its really bothering me that a part of "Linux die hards" always blames missing features or complicated processes on the user.
"Oh yeah, you want a working system? HERES WHY YOU SHOULDT WANT THAT AND WHY IT IS ACTUALLY A FEATURE THAT ITS NOT WORKING. Noob"
I think we need to accept that Linux is not for anyone.
Sure I can install the aur version of team speak from console, but my grandparents can't. They can't even read English documentation.
For people living it Linux is fine, and better than other systems, you can change your desktop envirment, fit it to your needs, not be constantly spied on, change everything you want (if you understand it enough to compile from source) nice.
But if you want anything more than "one monitor, mail, office (with bad grammar and spell check)" but are not comfortable with reading through pages and pages of documentation or spending an amount of time tinkering with your PC others spend with their kids, Linux just won't work!
And we need to be honest to people with that or we set wrong expectations.
I am not dumb and not a total noob, but I broke my system recently because I wanted to change my username and didn't read through all the little details why Linux can't do this like any other os. On any payed os this is one klick, on Linux your documents break (because of groups), your desktop items break, your taskbar breaks (and I still haven't got the taskbar panel working today, because no matter what the home folder in plasma settings is, panel always interprets ~/ as the old homefolder path, which doesn't exist anymore and for the love of god I can't find where panel stores this info), loots of symlinks break and im thinking about just installing from scratch because it is easier than to fix everything.
Linux just isn't a payed os and you can't expect everything from it you can from windows or osx. There are (lot of) usecases win and osx easily accomplish, and Linux doesn't if your not a nerd or have lots of time.
Just saying those usecases are "not needed". While people clearly need them is only helping Microsoft and apple.
“Oh yeah, you want a working system? HERES WHY YOU SHOULDT WANT THAT AND WHY IT IS ACTUALLY A FEATURE THAT ITS NOT WORKING. Noob”
That shit is why I hate Microsoft so much. The whole strength of Linux should be the flexibility to do what you want to do with it. 100% agree with you that Linux isn't there yet but I am certainly trying to get there with it.
I'm at the point where I have to admit that the 'average user' isn't even using a desktop or laptop at all.
The average user just wants to open up a browser to use tiktok, instagram, gmail, and whatever else it is people use these days. Maybe edit a few documents and look at local pictures? The average user isn't going to use RDP or train an LLM.
As others have said: NVIDIA sucks for linux. They have sucked for linux for more than a decade (snippet). And RDP: try Remmina.
Also dualbooting is so-so. Windows likes to mess up the bootloader for no reason during updates. If you switch, it's best to go full linux or try first from a VM.
CC BY-NC-SA 4.0
Did you just CC BY-NC-SA 4.0 your comment?
Looks like it, doesn't it?
CC BY-NC-SA 4.0
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snippet
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Even the average user will sometimes need non-average features.
Maybe they want to print a document and have an old HP printer laying somewhere.
Maybe they want to try this AI filter thingy that is such a fad on Tiktok
Maybe they need to digitally sign a document, or log in using their card reader and government ID to do their taxes.
If even one of those don't work how they should immediately out of the box, then Linux is not for the average user.
Linux is probably your best bet actually.
Browsers work on linux
All works on linux, most likely even works through the browser (which is what I've been doing).
And they work "out of the box" on windows? You have to go to a download page, to get the right driver, ensure you have the right windows version and service pack (those are still a thing right?), restart your computer and hope it worked. Hey, maybe there's even some new fangled "security measure" that installs a rootkit that requires you to go into your BIOS to activate a feature in order for it to work.
Since it's not "out of the box", maybe windows should also be canned, right?
CC BY-NC-SA 4.0
Multiple mistakes:
You went with a very old distro, Ubuntu 22.04 is almost 2 years old. You could pick a non-lts ubuntu instead. Thankfully you ended up picking Fedora.
A single google search could've given you better alternatives to FreeRDP like Remmina. You can always ask people stuff like this on Lemmy or elsewhere ("what's the best rdp client on linux?") rather than waiting till you run out of patience.
You shouldn't need to compile software by yourself, you can use flatpak to install newer versions of software and flathub even has a beta repo you can add for even newer software.
It's not against you, we all learn from mistakes. Just try to be more social about your linux journey if you don't want to struggle
Tldr: you made the classic mistake of going head first into this without a friend to help you or at least documenting yourself properly on the current state of Linux desktops through various medias like Youtube. It doesn't help that you suffered from the ol' "I'm a windows expert so this should be similar/easy and if it fails it's not my fault"
Ubuntu 22.04 is not "very old". It's the latest LTS release of Ubuntu. I do not, at all, fault an IT professional for picking the LTS release instead of the absolute latest latest release.
I think it is a communication failure for Linux to not communicate that the jump between Linux distro versions (e.g. from Fedora 38 to Fedora 39) is not the same as a jump from Windows 8 to Windows 10. It is similar to the jump between the different Windows subversions, like from 21H2 to 22H2. Most people don't even know what those numbers mean, and for most people, it doesn't matter. A distro upgrade is nothing more than a big update, and that's how I think it ought to be presented. People should be encouraged to use the non-LTS version as a default, and gently nudged to upgrade once a new one comes out. It shouldn't be presented as a conplete change in operating system versions, but rather as a feature update. That's what Windows does, and Windows versions are practically invisible!
The support for larger numbers of monitors and mixed resolutions and odd layouts in KDE vastly improved in the ubuntu 23.04 release. I wouldn't install anything other than the latest LTS release for a server ( and generally a desktop ), but KDE was so much better that it was worth running something newer with the short term aupport on my desktops.
We aren't too far off the next LTS that will include that work anyway I guess. I'm probably going to be making the move to debian rather than trying that one out though.
While you make many valid points, I think it's not reasonable to assume that OP could have avoided all the struggles they had, if they just had informed himself prior to installing. Especially since many of them problems described were probably caused by an unfortunate combination of software/driver issues, a specific hardware setup and certain user expectations.
I doubt that watching tech YouTubers or similar would have helped much.
Also, dont download packages as .rpm /.deb files, that almost never works. They could have just used their phone with usb-tethering to get Ethernet. I suppose.
Uh huh
I can believe it. Because OP is trying to make Linux work like Windows. Note how for remote access, they jump straight to RDP and don't even bother with SSH. Which Windows 10/11 has a native client for.
I mean, the rdp is from Linux to Windows for desktop application access, so it's the right tool for that job.
No. They're installing an RDP server (that is, you connect to the Linux box via RDP, not the other way around), not a client like Remmina.
They aren't.
Ohhh...they're fucking around with FreeRDP? Why?! Even for someone who comes from Windows, how did they not just go 'fuck this, there's got to be a better way' and spend 5 more minutes Googling to find Remmina?
Below they commented they found Remmina, but it wasn't working either.
Stop pretending like IT professionals don't understand how to search their problems.
Guess I should have said love USB, but some old habits die hard. Either way having to go in and disable ACPI just to get it to boot is not something most people would be comfortable with.
It's also frankly not something they should have to do either.
That sounds funky, I like it!
Damn autocorrect
I mean... You're expecting your system which likely shipped with support for Windows to just work with Linux. Linux support by vendors is often non-existent and requires oss developers to play catch up.
FUD
To be fair, that's not much of a thing with windows
I have 1 machine that will not boot most debian distros, and if they do it will not boot after install. It is a BIOS bug. non debian distros acknoledge the bug and move on.
Have you met Windows admins? 😛
In fairness, I’ve seen some Linux admins become completely hopeless as soon as any GUI appears.
Suffering is inevitable. This is the first noble truth in Buddhism. Troubleshooting Linux is Tao.
It certainly made me think back to my early days of fighting IRQ conflicts in Windows ME. Or trying to get a LAN party going with mixtures of 98, 98 SE, and ME. And getting excited about the troubleshooting. I guess all these years later I've just gotten salty.
I remember getting excited to tbs something that didn't work when learning a new thing. At this point, I'm middle aged (old is what I would have called it then) and bored with spending any time doing anything I don't want to do. My free time is precious. If it works, great. If not, let's fix it. At no point am I interested in doing more than I have to.
"something as simple as RDP" haha hahaha you're a funny one!
My recent experience with helping a friend with an nvidia card to work on Linux is that I never want to touch an nvidia card again.
Also, please tell me which average user makes its own windows installation. When I was young in the 90s I was paid to install windows in my village.
But yes, much progress is still needed to smooth the installation. The problem is that the hardware is often a fault though, through their shitty drivers.
I've certainly had issues with RDP in Windows.
I've installed Linux multiple times and have multiple monitors and I don't know what RDP even is.
It's Remote Desktop Protocol. A Microsoft protocol for taking controle of a remote (Windows) computer.
I would think that some of these problems with RDP and monitors might be caused by running Wayland with an Nvidia GPU. I'm pretty sure both Ubuntu and Fedora use Wayland out of the box by default. Best off using Xorg until Nvidia sorts their shit.
Weird, sucks you had a rough time. I'm mostly perplexed about the network card issue, and the monitors. I haven't had any trouble like that in more than a decade. I've honestly actually had more trouble with a new install of windows failing to detect hardware than Linux recently.
It was a strange one. I had never seen anything like it before. It could still see the hardware, but listed it as unclaimed. Nothing I could do would get it to start working. When I finally decided to reinstall, I figured I'd try a different distro.
You don't by chance have a formerly-mellonox card as your network card, do you? I wonder if something is checking for the Nvidia vendor string to only start one GPU and the devs forgot that Nvidia doesn't only make GPUs
Dont fall for bait guys
You definitely are not a typical user, and you have specific requirements that heavily bias towards Windows.
Just do what works best for you. Yes, you'll have to put up with Windows BS, but your problems with daily driving Linux are worse.
This is great advice!
More people should turn to linux, absolutely, but it shouldn't be just because it is linux. I think people should look at what they want from their device in particular, look at what is offerred by multiple systems and os', and decide from there that they want to use linux because it does x, y, z best.
That is what made me decide to use linux as more than just a project or afternoon curiosity!
I think a lot of us are just sick of Windows being eroded into garbage spyware, unless we want to run mac hardware there is no other alternative really.
Linux is really the only alternative, and I would love it to do everything better than the other OS' rather than being content with it just being good for specific use cases.
For rdp take a look at remmina
Yep, Remmina is awesome. I wish I had it at work.
For RDP, i use Remmina, no idea if it will do what you want for your weird monitor layout, but it is a well featured RDP client.
I would say that your experience is unusual, even with nvidia. Ive always used nvidia, and its generally been a significantly smoother experience.
I've used Remmina for years on Linux when administrating Windows Machines. I don't think I've ever had a single problem with it. Love that program.
I tried Remmina and it wasn't working either. I couldn't even get it to connect using the same settings as RDP free.
I've never had an issue with Remmina. Did you verify you had a working connection between your device and the server? (Silly question but its good to start at the basics)
Did you try just a basic connection? Or is your target box using Network Level Authentication? (I've heard most Linux clients don't play well with this)
For me, the built up revulsion I feel towards windows and the sheer determination I feel to never use it again, means I would rearrange my monitors, or, you know, try more than two distros.
Linux isn’t for everyone, I acknowledge that fact. It requires a user that wants to troubleshoot, wants to figure out why something doesn’t work and make it work. If the headache isn’t fun, you’re not the right kind of masochistic self flagellator that Linux attracts, and that’s okay.
If you ever do decide to give it another whirl, try Linux Mint, MX Linux, or my personal flavor of choice, EndeavourOS. And put your monitors in a boring straight line like the rest of us before you coming crawling back.
This reply is meant to be partially humorous but entirely honest.
I absolutely cringe to make this comparison, but reading your comment, it's the first image that came to my pop-culture poisoned mind, so here we go:
In Rick and Morty, when Evil Morty has finally achieved his long-sought and hard-won goal of escaping Rick and the Central Finite Curve, that sigh of relief he gives before stepping into the new untamed universe.
That's how I feel about making the move to Linux, personally. That sense of overwhelming relief to be free of something you hate so much is a reward. That's why I put in the effort to manage Linux. Being free of Microsoft's (and Apple and Google) shit is something I want so much that I'll not only put in the time, I'll even enjoy it somewhat.
Ok, but here's the thing: OP is 20 years into a tech career and troubleshooted extensively. Even identified potential solutions that they deemed too much work for the payoff (such as compiling a software release for fedora themselves because the beta branch's buildbot broke the fedora build).
You need to put a shit ton more emphasis on your self flagellation point, and a lot less on the love of troubleshooting. We're beyond troubleshooting and well into the "I have more fun trying to repair an engine while it's running than actually driving a car"
I get it, some people are more interested in making the best swiss army knife than actually using it to cut things. Just please don't conflate it with a lack troubleshooting ability.
Most of the issues on Linux faced by end users are some variety of "if you don't like it then code your own software dumbass", "real programmers use butterflies", and "you're using it wrong, but there's no documentation anywhere of that being the case, only tribal knowledge. OUTSIDER! OUTSIDER! BURN THE OUTSIDER!"
Especially the last one. For fucks sake, if I wanted piss poor documentation put together by overstreched amatuers, written entirely in the context of expecting everyone else to have their same deep domain knowledge, and unorganizedly spread over every far flung corner of space then I'd just move back to my old job in tech support (🥁 badum-tsh)
Yeah, you make valid points. Maybe Linux isn’t for people who need windows capabilities for work. I enjoy the tinkering, but I don’t make my money on my Linux machine. I work in construction, I’m only a nerd at home.
So, my machine does everything I need it to in Linux. Some things require me to memorize fairly lengthy commands and perform more complicated functions than I’d ever have to in windows. Sometimes I learn things the hard way, sometimes my shit breaks. I try to learn something while fixing it, and if it doesn’t work I nuke and pave and keep good backups.
The satisfaction I get from becoming competent must give me some serious dopamine because I’ve stuck with it, and I’ve come to perform most day to day actions in the CLI.
I certainly don’t think OP has a lack of ability to learn, but, I also don’t think Linux is a good fit for his use case. Yet.
Okay so genuine question from someone who's used various distros for all sorts of things over the years, just never as a daily driver. What sorts of things have caused your revulsion towards Windows? Aside from Microsoft's bullcrap like Alexa or MS Store ads which can all be disabled, I've personally never had enough of a problem with Windows that justified the effort required to move away from it. And I would consider myself a power user who loves to customize things.
Again, I just want to genuinely understand what sorts of problems people have that cause them to hate using Windows that much, even if they're just subjective things.
The sinking sensation of realizing that my entire operating system is spyware that phones home tens or hundreds of times each time I sit down to use it. Massive bloat and poor optimization neutering my otherwise just fine hardware. My operating system deciding it will no longer support my beater legacy hardware.
Really the shift happened when I became privacy conscious, and once I saw that all of my gaming and day to day tasks worked just fine on Linux I decided to go all in.
Also the fact Microsoft just doesn't seem to respect that the user is the admin, not them. You can still claw back control, but over the years, the amount of clawing you have to do has increased.
To put it simply, I hate when my OS does something I explicitly told it not to do, or undoes something I deliberately set. And as the years have gone by, the amount of times that happens with Windows has skyrocketed.
I have a bunch of issues(some way smaller and borderline nitpicks) with windows, but I guess there's some big ones:
Linux runs smoothly on older computers, even with KDE which everyone talks about as if it was heavy. Windows is a slug in comparison.
Linux is free, truly free. Microsoft can't beat that.
Shit just works (unless you are on Nvidia...), don't need to install drivers and shit like that.
most of the software you don't get from a random website and they all update at once, rather than having each one update itself and only itself
While my next rig is fully AMD, my current is Nvidia and shit just works with some fiddling
For me, it was when Windows 11 didn't even give me the luxury of moving my taskbar to the top of the screen and I had to use a third-party application to do so, which was janky as hell. It sounds very small, petty and superficial, but small things like that can immensely affect one's experience and workflow. "You don't know what you've got until it's gone" is an applicable phrase to that.
Sure, I can just use Windows 10, and I do in fact have a Windows 10 VM in VMware (since WINE has issues with MusicBee and WACUP, and I'm trialing the Apple Music app for Windows as well), but Windows 10 will no longer be supported next year.
You mean aside from the shitty way Microsoft treats their users? 😆 Yeah ok, if we leave all that aside then there's no revulsion. I'll use Windows without any issues, I've used it extensively and I use it daily for work but it feels bloated and old and Microsoft being shitty doesn't help.
Learning Linux is not that hard and you get an OS and DE where things work just as well as Windows and also nobody's telling you what to do, and you get choices. Which is nice, because I think I should be able to make the most out of something that's supposed to be a generic computing device.
I'm sure there was a way to disable it but whenever I would hit print screen a one drive ad would pop up on my laptop. It also kept bugging me to update to windows 11, where the options were "yes" and "ask me again in 3 days". I had no intentions of upgrading to win11.
I also don't like many of the changes made in win11, while I haven't used it much I've touched it and it bothered me. Examples include the lack of vertical task bar, the weird context menu, the rounded edges, and the start menu. Plus my desktop PC doesn't even support win11 for some reason so this seemed like a good time to make the switch.
You tried. That is far more than many people. Good for you!
I have had similar experiences, but from Linux to other OSes. The mental models for using them are really different, and those don't get enough discussion.
Same as you, in IT forever, ...I switched, and I'm never going back. It's fast, and it's brought the joy back for me. Nvidia needs to do better, but that was the only difficulty I had.
Not that you did anything wrong in this process but I think you stacked the deck against yourself by requiring an open-source OS work so seamlessly with a proprietary one.
Don't give up too easily friend. I've been slowly moving some of my hone systems away from Window's, and much like you, I've spent close to 20 years as a Windows admin. I have the advantage of using Linux on my always ancient laptops over the years and it is my personal opinion that Debian is the way to go.
Give LMDE (Linux Mint Debian Edition) a go, it is very familiar to navigate coming from Windows and isn't going to have constant updates breaking stuff (looking at you Arch).
First thing after installing run apt-get update, then add the Nvidia drivers (add the source to your sources and install, if you need help, post back and we've got you!) and reboot.
fedora's Nvidia support is leagues ahead of anything debian based in my experience. that's not to mention debians insanely out-dated package repo.
The ubuntu unstability surprised me (not that I would recommend it anyways), but this didn't. Isn't RDP a proprietary protocol of Microsoft? Probably not too many use it in the Linux world
It was but my understanding is that the patent on RDP lapsed. It's why Oracle VirtualBox uses RDP as their virtual desktop protocol.
Thank you for sharing your story!
For your kind of use case and issues, I'd recommend finding someone local with a good amount of Linux experience and do a couple of pair sessions. I find this transports a lot more (especially 'soft') knowledge on concepts and how to do things efficiently. Also, it helps to share frustrations ;-)
Linux does not try to be another Windows. While it's fairly possible to treat it kinda as such especially in newer times, it won't feel efficient or convenient that way, in my experience.
Can you elaborate on what pair sessions are?
It's being 2 people in front of the screen instead of one.
It's something related to the main advice I can give to someone wanting to try Linux = do not be alone and ask for help a lot.
That sucks. I've found that 90% of stuff works fine in Linux, 5% works if you jury rig it enough, and 5% just straight up doesn't work - and if that last 5% is needed for your job, then you're SOL. For me the few things that don't work are worth giving up because of how much I hate Windows' spyware and adware, and all my work apps work fine in a browser window so I've never had to worry about that.
Hey buddy, no stress, I feel ya! Switching OSes is like trying a new flavor of ice cream – it can be an adventure at times. But, let me share some wisdom from my Linux journey. When we focus on the small stuff, we unintentionally give power to the big guys. Linux is all about flexibility and community support. Sure, it might not be perfect right away, but that's part of the fun! Keep pushing through, you'll soon see why so many of us love this open-source world. Let's rock this Linux life together
For RDP, I use Remmina. Multimon only works on X though, not wayland, so make sure that's the graphic server you're running. Idk if it'll work for 2x2 tho, I only have 2 monitors.
For the headaches, I use a magic pill that I'm not legally allowed to view the ingredients of and cry into my Tissues as a Service.
Sorry to hear it didn't work out for you :(
To squeeze in a metaphor : Linux is just a hobby project that kind of got out of hand in a previously Microsoft dominated world.
In the BSD world (FreeBSD,NetBSD,OpenBSD etc.) things are actually much worse. I've read that on computer conferences BSD developers come with an Apple Macbook (Running MacOS) to show BSD software development, which is running on servers. And I like BSD, but on the desktop it is still lacking. One only has to look at the amount of packages which no longer have a maintainer. I am not complaining about it, as I realize that maintaining open source software can be a burden.
If you want to play some more with Linux on the desktop, you can use WSL on Microsoft Windows, or use VirtualBox. Wanting to make Linux your daily driver may require more patience, or throwing money at it to speed up code development.
Linux is honestly fine. The problem is bias and tendencies coming from Windows.
Virtualbox is going to have less than great performance and WSL is very limited and not a full system. Best option is to grab a used laptop and get hacking.
Yes, I wanted to suggest the OP to get a refurbished laptop and play with Linux on that, but figured the OP may much prefer to use their own big monitors instead of a small one on a laptop. VirtualBox is probably good enough to play with Linux and learn more Linux, apart for 3D gaming and video editing.
damn, that sucks. I've installed Linux on 10 personal computers so far, from phones to servers, and I actually haven't had too many issues. Then again, I've never needed RDP and the only computers with NVIDIA graphics are the servers, which are headless.
There's an app on Flatpacks called Thincast remote desktop client. I don't htink it's using the free rdp libraries, so it's possible that the bugs you encountered with the other open source apps (that all use the same underlying libs), might not be there.
I read "boot", "side by side with windows, "ubuntu", Nvidia" and some awfull war flashbacks came back to haunt me.
As someone who grew up toying with both windows, Mac and Linux I think people always underestimate how hard it'll be to migrate to an OS they never tried before. I've seen lots of people getting frustrated that way, regardless of the OS.
So I'd say being an IT guy or a tech illiterate won't change much in that regard. I guess being an IT might at least give you shortcuts but you'll still hit a wall if you don't check beforehand if all your needs will be easy to access and how much pain you'll have to deal with.
At least that's my take on it.
But yeah, Ubuntu can be awfull depending on your needs. Windows and Linux don't make good neighbors, windows is always the one trying to murder the other, and Nvidia is a nasty piece of work.
Its sad but linux is still a second class citizen. Nvidea drivers have improved greatly over the years, but it can be still flaky especially newer ones.
Multi moniter support too, it has a history troubled with challenges. Its much much better than it used to be but sometimes there are setups and usecases which have problems. It used to be multiple monitors, just having them as a desktop, was impossible. Nowaday I can daily drive Linux and expect to have a good desktop experience across multiple monitors.
Mindyou, every windows update its a dieroll what breaks for my work surface labtop. Often my display or dock behaviour breaks or my bluetooth, or my networking. Not to excuse the bugs in linux, but to show that even MS on their own hardware have bugs like that. Pcs are hard and even MS can't do it flawlessly.
What you describe as simple multimonitor RDP might actually be a very complex task from a technology and display standpoint.
That being said, it totally sucks having a usecase and finding out that for you have problems getting there. I agree that Linux still has major hurdles for general adoption, (although again, it is so much better than it used to be). Look at it this way: if desktop linux had the same amount of money and development time thrown at it as Windows or MacOS, we'd have a very different experience.
As for tips. I recommend to dualboot. Use MS for your usecases that are not a good experience and use Linux for the other things. Keep checking in with the multiple RDP tech/workflow to see if it works. I did the same thing for years. The only reason I used windows was my games. For other things I used Linux and learned my way around the desktop while doing that. Eventually Proton came along and I could switch entirely.
If you go back a bit further, multi monitor support was just fine. Our office in about 2002 was full of folks running dual ( 19 inch tube! ) monitors running off matrox g400's with xinerama on redhat 6.2 ( might have been 7.0 ). I can't recall that being much trouble at all.
There were even a bunch of good years of the proprietry nvidia drivers, the poor quality is something that I've only really noticed in the last three or so years.
Sorry to hear about that mess.
I posted here https://lemmy.nz/comment/1784981 a while back about what I went through with the Nvidia driver on Linux.
From what I can tell, people who think Linux works fine on Nvidia probably only have one monitor or maybe two that happen to be the same model ( with unique EDID serials FWIW ). My experience with a whole bunch of mixed monitors / refresh rates was absolutely awful.
If you happen to give it another go, get yourself an AMD card, perhaps you can carry on using the Nvidia card for the language modelling, just don't plug your monitors into it.
Remmina
Every 5 years or so Windows annoys me so much with its nonsense that I salt the earth and install a Linux distro.
The last time I did this was Ubuntu (tried manjaro or whatever its called before too) and every time I find a problem that requires hours of trawling the Internet just to find I need to basically rebuild/test/maintain my own version of the library/component.
It gets to the point where I can't really be productive and I begrudgingly go back to windows as it's less faff and more productive for me. Then the timer starts again for I get too annoyed with windows.
I want to love Linux, but its not as simple as "just using it." (unless you are using a steam deck, that is brilliant for its use case).
Part of the problem for me I feel is that the Linux eco system is so wide and vast that we don't have a singular collective agreement on where to share effort to get something as stable and easy to use as Windows etc. From this thread alone people seem to hate Ubuntu, and sur maybe it's bad, but most non Linux people only know of that Linux distro.
The sheer vastness of the eco system is it's downfall, if there was 1 main shell everyone got behind and was used by companies and end users then we would have a huge knowledge base of problems and fixes as well as a concerted effort in a shared direction. As it stands at the moment most companies using Linux don't have a shell layer, then end users are probably all using various different shells and related components etc, so effort and support is not consolidated as everyone is pulling in their own directions.
I get this is one of the things that draws in the current Linux userbase, but for those of us who just want to do same stuff we do on windows/mac we don't really care about being able to mix and match stuff, we just want to get behind something that gets out of our way and let's us use the computer, not faff in the infrastructure of the OS.
I mostly use SSH to manage servers, but you could try cockpit if you want something more graphical.
I've been extremely happy with Linuxmint the past 2-3 yrs. However I have a higher end AMD card. 97% of games play great under Proton with steam. I use Rustdesk to remote into other Linux machines as well as windows OS servers/desktops even with multiple screens and it works without issue. Just my $0.02 and I know it's heavily Ubuntu based but the stability and usability as a daily driver, also working as an IT professional has been great.
Last piece, it's been a rare occurrence but if I'm messing around using bleeding edge graphics drivers or "playing with fire" messing with deeper system configs, drivers, etc and shit the bed I have had 100% success using TIMESHIFT to completely restore my OS back to its previous state with zero data/config loss or issues. You just need to have the discipline to remember to take a backup before you know you're going to be potentially blowing something out. But, that said, it fully restores everything. I have a 18TB external USB I just use for that and it doesn't even take long either, restoring a 2 & 4TB SSD system that's pretty loaded up with data.
I have been using linux off and on since I first installed Slackware from floppy. Mint is generally what I go to when I just want to have a working desktop and not dick around with it too much.
The accustomed workflows sometimes don't translate well to other platforms. RDP might be such a case, I don't think it's the standard in the Linux-world, maybe try the standard solution of your distribution, or look up which one is good for multi-monitor setups, there are lots of other VNC solutions. Yeah, and I'd skip Ubuntu as a first choice, but you figured that out the hard way.
Can confirm. SSH is the standard under Linux. OP will be happy to note that Windows has an inbuilt SSH client since Windows 10 that functions nearly identical to its Linux equivalent.
There are two different RDP implementations in Linux: freerdp (which is the underlying library for remmina as well) and rdesktop. Each has its own set of bugs. No idea if rdesktop offers better support for what you want to do—I use it, but I only have single-monitor setups at both ends. (It has an annoying bug that can make it require multiple attempts to establish a connection, though.)
Skill issue
Git gud scrub
I'm on the ubuntu derivative Pop!_OS. I RDP with multiple monitors of different resolutions using remina. Nvidia is also supported out of the box. All you'd need to do is install pop and then remmina.
Is your problem that you just want one big window across all your monitors? I.e. not multi monitor RDP, or that you want a separate window on each monitor where each is seen as another monitor on the remote system?
I'd prefer separate windows for each monitor. I tried both ways but it really didn't like my setup.
Weird that you're having issues, try a distro that supports nvidia out of the box instead of trying to install drivers
VMs in which Windows hosts fors RDP run are my solution.
However I try to not having to use Microsoft systems which makes a lot of problem go away.
For a majority of tasks Linux daily drivers are fine, however at work we have plenty of computers with varying operating systems, some even from before 2000.
Bummer that it's giving you such a hard time. On rdp: Linux/Linux doesn't even need it. ssh to remote. Run gui app. It runs on remote and displays locally. Wayland is probably going to kill that though. Until it does, the X11 client / server model is pretty swank.
Wayland has waypipe which does exactly that
Good!
Like with any unfamiliar tech I find it is probably smoother to start small and work your way up.
So find a laptop that people have no issues running Linux on. Get one and then install just Linux on that and play with it.
The thing is, Linux has a small user base and so it probably isn't realistic to expect it to support every conceivable hardware configuration on top of dual booting on every one with Windows. It's way better than it used to be but sometimes people run into problems. Like me trying to get 5.19 kernel to work properly with my specific newer AMD GPU (any 6.x kernel is fine so like Fedora? No prob).
One of the things I try to do is research what network card chipsets, sound chipsets, and video card models work easily because some just don't.
It sucks I know. Linux doesn't have a gazillion dollar market behind it providing significant incentive for vendors to get their shit straight. Even so Linux does pretty well.
Anyway. When you're fighting with several things at once it is easy to get overwhelmed and frustrated. Dual boot with windows, alone, can be iffy in my recent experience. Then add Nvidia, more headache. Then add some less common use cases like rdp... Etc.
Best of luck if you try again.
Bummer! Sounds like a pain in the ass.
I wish I had a suggestion for you, but I only use two monitors and all of my work is ssh, no RDP needed.
I am a long time Linux user but even I am struggling recently as I have finally started working towards migrating my last windows machine ( strictly for gaming ) over to Linux with a windows partition for the one off chance I need to play on windows still. Currently only 1.5 of my monitors work ( my left monitor top half is black. ) It is fine in post, bios and windows but not in my fedora distro. Also, my performance tanked even though I can see my GPU is working as intended. My high refresh monitor is also not playing nice and ghosting all over the place, unlike in windows where there is only standard tearing when there is a frame rate mismatch.
Fortunately for me, I like tinkering and solving these issues, but I can imagine for someone wanting to avoid messing with their equipment it is probably more of a headache than a challenge. But I have personally always been of the mindset of using the tool that works best for you, with the exception of any moral considerations you may have. (I am just not a fan of windows or apple as a company.)
Good luck with your issue and I hope you find a resolution, but if not, I would just use what works.
Sad storry dude. I am running POPOS with gtx1060 as my daily driver for a year now. I used to have 3 monitors, but have 2 atm. Im using rustdesk (tried more apps and still looking for the best one) to connect to my office PC (windows, single monitor) and the other way around. Everything works great, but I need few apps that are windows only (main reason I use remote desktop). Other than that, cant play few games on linux, but i dont care about games that much. I was sure Ill have to go back to windows, but never happened
Sound like fun 🙃 frustrating fun, but hopefully you get something that works when you come back to it. Unusual setups always pay the price.
I would suggest trying a remote desktop solution other than rdp... Although I can see how that may not work since it would involve installing software on your work machine.
This sounds like a lot of my experiences with Linux. Before I went back to Ubuntu which mainly solved the specific issues I had. Not saying it will solve someone elses.
There is a "tested" dev snapshot of freerdp on the flathub beta repository, its pretty good even supports kerberos/protected accounts. I've also used the thincast gui app from the freerdp developers (also on flathub), which is also built on the dev branch and the gui exposes multimonitor options (but its not something I usually use).
News Flash!
"Linux is still a pain in the ass, even for experienced IT professionals." More at 11...
I've run Linux for a great many things over the years. Running 2 AWS LightSail instances for my own use. Running dozens of Ubuntu Server instances at work. Shit just works.
But Linux is a hard fail for a daily driver. Maybe not for you, but for most of us it sucks.
I've tried and tried and tried, for 20+ years. Of course I can make it work, but it's a pain in the ass. I got work to do on my daily driver, and fucking around as well. I need a desktop that just works. With everything.
Weird, I'm using Linux as my daily driver and have A LOT less bullshit to handle.
It does take a bit of setup, but I'm a lot more productive and haven't really any Windows "exclusive" tools, except for some Windows only protocols for which I still need to boot up Windows now and again.
The problem is people try using Linux like Windows. It's like using a hammer to drill holes, obviously you're going to have a bad experience if you use the tools the wrong way.
It's more like Linux is a pain in the ass, especially for IT professionals.
How many people are trying to use 4 monitors with weird configurations and admin software? Most people open up their laptop lid and run some programs, that's about it.
Point in case, much like OP I do personally use 2 monitors + Nvidia GPU + LLM and it worked out of the box on Arch Linux, but Wayland crashes my setup so I need to be aware of that.
Did you try setting them up as one big display across all four, instead of four little ones? I think that's something you can do.
Does the multi-mon RDP thing work from a Windows client too? I'd be surprised if it did, Windows' multi-monitor support is fairly lacking in my experience too.
I did try using the spam, same issues. I tried only using 2 of them and other combinations. Unfortunately no luck.
I use multiple monitor RDP in Windows on a daily basis. I want to keep my work and personal systems separate, but love having 4 monitors. So I just RDP into my work laptop from my desktop. It was buggy in the past, but I've been using this setup for a few years now and it's been seamless in Windows 10 & 11.
I get it, but could your use case e any more niche?
Why Ubuntu?
Its literally the worst Linux
I really hope Linus sees this
It faschinates me a lot how a company like Nvidia can't make working drivers even for xorg despite all the hype Nvidia moving their drivers into firmware. Amd sells gpu's very low numbers and they never have these issues because they can afford to release their drivers for Linux.
Linux foundation should ban Nvidia. So many headaches and wasted resources cured immediadly.
Except then no one with an nvidea gpu even has a chance of using linux. Something's better than nothing.
Then demand Nvidia for better drivers. The new Linux users doesn't deserve all the current hassle because that instantly kills the motivation for even actually starting the Linux journey at all.
Sounds like your workflow is very much not operating system portable. If you are interested in Linux get a laptop and install linux mint.
i've been using a stick for 20 years of combat. i've seen people use f16 fighters and flew on a plane once. now i am bummed out i can't operate an f16.
I have seen few comparisons as deranged as this one
i have seems english.
Thanks for the heads up I guess...?
Jfc all this sub is is people bitching and moaning about windows. Do you all really have NOTHING else to talk about?
An entire sub dedicated to Linux and all you can do is talk about windows.
You know, I enjoy using Linux and everything, but I have to quit and go back to Windows. Sorry, I don't have a choice. I just can't stand penguins.
Well there's your problem. You've been blindly loyal to a brand that has shown no loyalty towards consumers.
Lol, have you seen the state of rocm in the LLM space? It's a dumpster fire. As much as everybody hates nvidia's profiteering and blackbox drivers, at least cuda works.
It's not just their blackbox drivers, though, it's the way they entice businesses to work with them and use their software for their products such that no other players can perform in the market.
I'm not familiar enough to confirm, but it would be entirely unsurprising to me if NVidia cards only work well with LLM's because LLM's have been designed with NVidia cards and with support from NVidia. On the one hand, it's nice that the manufacturer is supporting developers, on the other the way NVidia historically does this drastically limits consumer choice.
They've been designed for nvidia because cuda is better.
And because nvidia has been pushing hardware features needed for AI way before AMD has even considered it for ages.
You say that like OpenCL hasn't been an option for years now.
Well, Nvidia doesn't support OpenCL 2, so if you want your software to support the most commonly used cards, you're going to be limited to OpenCL 1.2, which is pretty crap compared to the shiny CUDA. There's also a lot of great tooling made or heavily sponsored by Nvidia that's only available for CUDA.
And yes, Nvidia now supports OpenCL 3, but that's pretty much just OpenCL 1.2 with all OpenCL 2 features marked as optional (and Nvidia doesn't support them, obviously).
Its actually not as bad as it was. Its not good but if you can get docker working you might be ok.
You also could just get two GPUs. An used AMD card shouldn't be to expensive you you deal hunt a little.
Weak
Well Linux desktop mostly sucks and however says the opposite is full of shit.
Debian might give you a better experience, less bullshit, less bugs...
Linux desktop is mostly great, and whoever says the opposite is full of shit.
I know, with so many wonderful window managers who needs a stinking desktop.
I run with no logind no dbus no polkit ,, occasionally I may manually start a seatd to test wayland labwc upgrades .. and I'd rather go deaf than have to use pulseaudio or pipewire.
@TCB13 @hactar42
Just use Arch.
I like Arch, but a first-time install of Arch for a beginner who doesn't have a lot of patience for reading documentation and troubleshooting is not good advice.
EndeavourOS would be good
There's also the easy archinstall script
He said he's an IT professional for 20 years. That's like the epitome of patience for reading documentations and troubleshooting
The bigger problem when running Arch is that there's a very high gap between "the bootloader makes the kernel run" and "functional desktop system". The installation guide will get you to the first one. For someone who's used to Windows, even as an IT pro, learning Arch is a firehose that's hard to drink from.
Once you've pacstrap'd and set up a user you reboot and start your new OS. Except you have no internet because you didn't know you had to install dhcpcd. Fine, install that--except your user isn't in sudoers, so you have to figure out how to get back to being root to edit the sudoers file. With visudo. Ten minutes later you've figured out how to find and edit the right line. Another ten to get out of vi. Then once that's sorted you're sitting at a terminal you don't know any commands for with no idea how to get to a graphical environment.
You look on your phone and find a recommendation for XFCE4 as a lightweight and simple DE. Great, install that. Try to launch it, and...a bunch of arcane errors. Another hour of troubleshooting and you learn that you missed xorg, which for some reason isn't a dependency of XFCE4. O...kay. You don't want to have to launch it every time you boot, so you go digging and find out you need a desktop manager. Takes some time, but you finally install one and enable the service in systemd, which you have to do manually for some reason.
Finally you get to a graphical environment, and...the fonts are all weird, and unicode symbols are just placeholders. Wait, fonts. You have to install fonts. More research, but you get there. Finally you launch a browser and are delighted to find something familiar. It all works the same. Great! Let's watch a video to make sure playback is working, and...no sound.
Okay, more research, and turns out you missed pulseaudio. Install that, start the daemon aaaand...no audio. Fine, how do you check the audio level? Ah, there's an XFCE4 plugin for pulseaudio. Find that, install it, put it on your panel, click it and...pavucontrol isn't installed. Whatever that is. Okay, install it and try again. Great! So, for some reason the default audio level when you install is 0. Turn that up and you finally hear sound! Hours after starting the process.
And every. little. thing. is like that. For weeks. Especially with Nvidia, and especially if you make the mistake of following a recent guide that shunts you into a Wayland environment. Every time you need to do something there are 20 options, five of which are well-documented but deprecated, the first three you try don't work for reasons you don't understand, then you finally find something that works well enough. Rinse, repeat, for every little thing.
And this is coming from a complete Arch stan. I love Arch. It's my only distro these days. I'm on Hyprland, my neovim is tricked out, everything is slick, responsive, just takes a couple keystrokes to accomplish anything I want to do, and I have everything set up exactly how I want it. It took a long time to get there, though, and I've been using Linux off and on for over 20 years, maining it for the last 10.
With arch based flavored desktop installers (arco endeavour manjaro ..) you get some GBs of stuff that is probably going to ask 1-2GB of upgrades, and then you end up dumping half the crap they came with.
On one you start from bottom up, the rest you start from top towards the ?bottom?.
You only learn when you start with the least needed to boot a system, have net access, and a pkg.mngr.
@Squiddles @hactar42 @Jean_Lurk_Picard @Zak
Some people learn that way, but most don't. It's usually better to start with a working environment and work on one thing at a time until you learn enough that you're ready to dig down another layer. Start with little mysteries and learn the structure of things and how to troubleshoot before jumping in the deep end. Having a system that's hopelessly broken and you don't know why or how to fix it is just likely to turn people away from Linux entirely. People don't win extra points for suffering needlessly.
There is an advantage in arch (and all pacman based distros) that the pkg mgr is friendly and vocal.
Say you want your system to run with vtwm you try and you get many dependencies installed, then try starting it. If it doesn't start it will tell you what is missing still.
Usually with X is either xorg-xinit or a display manager (avoid) and adding exec vtwm into your ~/.xinitrc gets you going.
@Squiddles @hactar42 @Jean_Lurk_Picard @Zak
Yeah, in Windows. Windows and Arch are two completely different beasts.
I get the sentiment (Arch has provided the least friction for me when I needed something niche/specific) but putting OP on Arch is still pushing them into the deep end IMO. If OP is open to trying Arch however, I'd throw out a recommendation for EndeavourOS which is just a pre-made Arch setup.
Or following scripts and copy-pasting the first result from Google.
The problem there is that what people come to learn about the Windows OS becomes ingrained into them as "how to use a computer".
Almost all of that goes out the fucking window when you jump to a non-Windows OS, but especially Arch.
What a fantastically shit idea for a beginner.