Do you approve sex work? Why or why not?

lionkoy5555@lemmy.world to Asklemmy@lemmy.ml – 169 points –

cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/18475086

I'm not against those who work for sex, but the idea to earn for a living doesn't seem nice. IMO, sex should be for 2 people (or more for others who prefer polyamory) who wants to be intimate/romantic with each other. My point is money should not be the purpose.

170

Sex work is work.

The people that do it deserve respect, and all the social and legal protections that attach to any other kind of work.

Your own preferred attitude to sex isn't the point.

But should it be work?

Should we really have a society where selling your body is an opportunity to make money.

For instance, it imply that some poor women are gonna take it regardless the consequence, just because it's the best alternative to pay the bills.

I can barely tolerate the physical straining we put on some workers. Sex work's consequences are unacceptable to me in that same sens, sometimes worse.

So sure, no matter your opinion we should respect them, and not incriminate them!

And of course not all sex work is the same... to be acceptable it just requires better conditions. It can't be something you choose out of need.

selling your body

i hate that phrasing to describe sex work. no one is "selling their body", as they are still in control of it. sex workers provide a service, same as a masseuse or hair stylist (except their service involves genitals) and it should be treated as such.

Otherwise one could argue that all (physical) labour is "selling your body"

It seems to me like joining the military is arguably more deserving of the phrase "selling your body"; you're basically signing up to get injured or killed.

I think the "body" in that expression is quite specifically referring to genitals, or the selling of your intimacy.

Because that's what's different from any other physical labour, the part of your body involved. That's the specific problem of sex work no?

It is a high risk job along the lines of coal mining and such, since it will result in an increase in transmitted disease risk. It's important to acknowledge that, but I am on the side of it being work. I just think we need strong protections in place and regulations to handle it akin to other dangerous jobs. Like, a sex work branch of OSHA.

It’s not even an argument really, it’s the undeniable logical conclusion that trading your labor and/or time for compensation is work, period.

For instance, it imply that some poor women are gonna take it regardless the consequence, just because it’s the best alternative to pay the bills.

How is this principally different from a poor person taking any shitty job to pay the bills? Like garbage collector or similarly unpleasant/disrespected jobs. The system always forces poor people to settle for shitty jobs. Sex work is not the issue there, the system is.

It's different in nature. No other jobs infringe on your intimacy in this way.

I do agree the system is the problem, i also would advocate for better conditions for any difficult jobs.

Therapist, hospice, nursing , sports medicine, massage… a lot of jobs require some level of physical or mental intimacy.

Therapist is another topic, with problems of mental intimacy indeed.

The rest is the patient's intimacy that you have to deal with. It is a vastly different intimate experience to wash a genitalia and be penetrated. And so, vastly different consequences for your well being.

Regulations would help, but create their own hurdles.

True and tested.

The best help is probably indirectly having better social policies overall. Although never perfect, the best we are the lesser the problem.

Sex work is going to happen whether it's legal or not. Might as well regulate it and provide sex workers with a legal framework, healthcare, retirement funds, etc.

I'm of the opinion that if you don't want people performing sex work, you should be enacting measures to improve people's quality of life to where that's not their only option. The workers themselves should have legal protections and be permitted to perform their job like any other worker is.

I suspect some people would prefer that as a regulated option anyway, and they should be defended in their choice to do so. Sex work is work.

Moreover, if you don't want people doing sex work, then you probably especially don't want people to be forced into doing sex work. But that's precisely what happens when you criminalize it: you make it so that the only way the demand can be satisfied is through a shady black market where trafficking is orders of magnitude more likely to take place, and you make it orders of magnitude more difficult for victims and witnesses to go to the authorities to report it.

I generally agree with you, but it is so complicated. I read a piece in The Nation a few years ago (written 2019) and whenever I see a question like this I have to dig it up. Sex workers in Spain applied to become a union (OTRAS, for short, full name basically means “the other women") and were approved in August 2018. Here are a few snippets:

After OTRAS was legalized, its two dozen or so members—who include women and men, both trans and cisgender—quickly found themselves engulfed in a national controversy. Prominent activists, academics, and media personalities swarmed social media under the hashtag #SoyAbolicionista (“I’m an Abolitionist”) to denounce what they saw as basic exploitation masquerading as the service economy. The union’s opponents argue that in a patriarchal society, women can’t be consenting parties in a paid sexual act born of financial necessity. They liken sex work to slavery, hence their name: “abolitionists.”

OTRAS calls this abolitionist opposition “the industry.” “They live really well off of their discussions, books, workshops, conferences, without ever including sex workers,” Necro says. “We’re not allowed to attend the feminist conventions.” OTRAS accuses “the industry” and the government—the two loudest arms of the abolitionist camp—of racism and classism, and is irked by their claims to feminism. “A government that refuses to guarantee the rights of the most vulnerable, poorest women with the highest number of immigrants? How is that feminist?” Borrell bristles. “We’re the feminists, the ones fighting for their rights.”

While advocates for legalization argue that it will make sex work safer, abolitionists counter that it could instead endanger women who, unlike the members of OTRAS, did not choose to enter the profession on their own. Abolitionists frame their anti-prostitution stance around the issue of human trafficking, specifically for prostitution. They argue that regulating sex work will simply allow traffickers to exploit women under legal cover.

“The trafficked women have no papers, so if police raid a club, the women have no choice but to say they’re there because they want to be,” says Rocío Nieto [...] Once law enforcement is out of earshot, Nieto says, “none of the women tell you they want to be there. None of them tell you they want to do that work.”

A handful of smaller radical-left parties also back OTRAS, as well as one unlikely ally: the right-wing Ciudadanos party, known for its harsh anti-immigration stance, among other more traditionally conservative postures. “Experience shows us that when the State refuses to regulate, the mafias make the rules,” the party’s press corps wrote me in an e-mail.

I'll just respond to your take:

The idea to earn for a living doesn't seem nice.

For you it doesn't. For others, mind your own business.

sex should be for 2 people (or more for others who prefer polyamory) who wants to be intimate/romantic with each other.

For you it should. For others, mind your own business.

money should not be the purpose.

For you it shouldn't. For others, mind your own business.

If you have any desire at all to weigh in or or take a position on the consensual sex lives of other adults, you're just revealing how little you respect the freedom and autonomy of other people. You're just revealing your desire to control others.

Pretty much perfect answer right here. This is downright encyclopedic.

Sure, I don't see why they should be treated any different than anyone else. I think the problem is the stigma around sex in general, and for that I blame religion.

My take is this.

I will guarantee universal basic job & income for everyone.

Once that's guarantee I'll see if anyone is willingly becoming a sex worker.

Without performing that "experiment" I cannot really respond.

I think you'll find that there's still quite a crowd that would. UBI for sure would help curb the those on the street scene just trying to pay to survive. But there's a huge group of only fans models that do things not to survive, but rather to become ultra wealthy

Let's take the opposite approach: look at all the top echelons of all past societies, assume that this subset of people was the most free to live in any way that they so desired, then count how many of these people did sex work. I think that we can safely assume that the amount of people that willingly engage in sex work is zero.

A very interesting take. I like that we're questioning the root cause here.

Add universal heath care including addiction treatment. This might or might not include de-penalization of addiction, depending on the jurisdiction. Breakdown this more to make clear what I mean. Besides the obvious complementarity between UBI and universal health care, people get to do this because they are also addicted, not just poor. Some are also manipulated by means of being addicted. The current approach that punishes the addicted instead of treating them only makes this worse. Countries that have made addiction a healthcare issue rather than a criminal one have seen results.

Sex work is work, and work (tying your capacity for labor to your continued survival) is bad. Sex workers should be supported like any member of the proletariat

Sex labor on the other hand? Sure as long as you have removed the exploitive element that comes with work.

Can you elaborate on the work vs labor dichotomy?

I’m not familiar with the concept, especially because in my language the two would be almost exact synonyms in this context (unless you are Hercules or what not). And Latin languages just get the one.

Labor is when you do a thing that has value to society.

Work is like, a job, where you do labor (or not) and that pays you so that you can spend money to sustain your existence. If you get disabled you can be fired and not have money long term to continue existing.

People, ironically enough, are more efficient laborers when they aren't doing it in the trappings of work, so there isn't any reason for work to exist.

Are you the only person using that definition?

Because traditionally English speaking Marxists use them the other way around, as far as I remember, (work is useful, produces use value, labor is economic, produces economic value) if they make that distinction at all.

See for example:

https://www.triple-c.at/index.php/tripleC/article/download/546/598#:~:text=In%20the%20Marxist%20tradition%2C%20the,(Fuchs%20and%20Sevignani%202013).

(Posted without endorsement)

EDIT

Apparently the English edition includes a footnote by Friedrich Engels:

As has been stated in a previous note, the English language has two different expressions for these two different aspects of labour: in the Simple Labour-process, the process of producing Use-Values, it is *Work; *in the process of creation of Value, it is *Labour, *taking the term in its strictly economic sense. — F. E.

Which reads very much like you are using them wrong.

They are not the only person who uses the words for each other. When I was doing my undergrad I found that myself and my fellow students used them pretty loosely goosey. As a native English speaker I've never had any difficulty telling which way a speaker intended labor and work to mean. The context provided enough. I can see how for people who are not native English speakers, but this isn't an academic institution. In casual conversation either or are appropriate.

This isn't in the context of utility value vs exchange value. This is separating value creation from the mode of production. Work as in workplace not work as in physical process

Be that as it may, your ad hoc definition in your first comment was spurious and finds no basis in English language Marxist literature.

Can you phrase this as constructive criticism for which are the proper words to use in this seperate use case or do I need to refer you to the constructive criticism handbook?

Also, establishing working definitions for use in casual conversation is a thing. Please note that I established definitions for their use.

Friend of mine used to be a whore. She says it has been the most fulfilling and fun job she has ever had. She got to meet many interesting people. And she also has a lot of funny stories to tell.

It was also fun for her that she could get tax breaks for underwear and other sexy clothes.

Yes, but ideally there should be regulation to prevent pimping, predation, trafficking, and STI spread. At the very least, decriminalization protects sex workers from fear of prosecution preventing them from seeking healthcare, legal help, etc.

Trafficking is heinous, but it also gets irreverantly thrown around as a whataboutism by people who are against it for personal instead of rational reasons.

The root of the problems with sex work, as always, is tying means of survival to productivity, which I am against both personally and rationally :P

Agreed. If they decriminalise and regulate it, sex work is much safer for all involved. People gotta pay bills and if sex work is their chosen profession, good for them.

I don't believe that my approval or anyone else's is at all relevant.

My position is that there's only one person who has the right to decide whether or not it's acceptable to trade sex for money, and that's the person entering into the trade. Assuming that all other contractual requirements are met - they're of legal age and acting of their own free will and so on - it's just as much their right to trade sex for money as to trade ditch digging or code writing or coffee brewing or meeting taking for money.

(edited for clarity)

I think a great example is OnlyFans. Pornography is close to full sex work, so it's a fair comparison. Here was a field that was dominated by predatory companies and people in the worst places. Actors and Actresses frequently talked about how they were abused, pushed beyond what they thought was acceptable, underpaid, hurt, raped, and honestly still worse.

Enter OnlyFans, a more legitimate way for workers to create their own content, their own pricing, set their own rules and their own boundaries. By legitimizing pornography and pornographic actors it made the entire thing safer for the workers themselves.

It's natural that sex work would follow this. It's wildly known that sex work is not a safe business, and it's extremely predatory. Taking our opinions out of it completely, if the options are A) let the extremely terrible and predatory underground business continue as it has or B) legitimize the business, add protections, and allow them to set their own rules - well then, isn't the moral option obvious?

I think it should be legal and regulated. It's a service that people want and others are willing to fill. We just need laws to protect all parties, particularly the workers.

"Selling is legal. Fucking is legal. Why isn't selling fucking legal?" -George Carlin

Its been said in this thread better than I can - but I wish the people who argue sex work is immoral because you're "selling your body" would apply that same logic to labor.

For most of us, our body is the only capital we have and we're taught to devalue that capital into oblivion so those who deplete that capital the most make the smallest possible piece of the pie.

People who argue such things from a “morality” standpoint (translation in this context = religious), they don’t really employ logic or reason. They’re obliged to follow a thousands-year-old book, which tells them it’s a sin and filthy and so they’re miserable, and so why should anyone else have any enjoyment.

I'll kinda take a different approach since everyone's covered the basics with sex work. The problem with how you've presented it, is you're defining an act on how you perceive and want to regulate it. The simple question becomes, "should people have bodily autonomy?"

Everyone has a different opinion on what can be considered intimate/romantic. Some people feel a full body massage is too intimate, others a dinner with a co-worker is too romantic (not agreeing, just throwing out examples). If we start regulating based on how someone feels something should be perceived than it's a slippery slope. I can fully understand that you believe sex to be romantic while also realizing that others don't feel the same way or view it as a positive aspect of it. If it's not being forced on you then it shouldn't be a problem what consenting adults do in privacy.

Do you watch porn? Porn is monetized sex with the purpose of getting money, and with a high degree of abuse and exploitation might I add. You and I and any law don't get to define the purpose of anything, we only decide wether something is allowed or not. If you want to sell your body for money you should have the freedom to do so, protected by labor laws and health assistance. This is a very good way to reduce the spreading of diseases and reduce the power of exploitative criminals

Porn is monetized sex with the purpose of getting money, and with a high degree of abuse and exploitation might I add

That's a heteronormative statement. What you meant to say is that corporate live action porn, which is most popular with heterosexual men, is abusive and exploitative. Who is abused by the writing of an erotic romance novel with Fabio on the cover? Who is abused by aged-up Sonic The Hedgehog smut? Who is abused by a drawing of two gay dragons having sex? Who is abused by a video game about cumflation battles between cum wizards? Who is abused by two trans gay women posting their sex tape on the internet for free with no expectation of payment?

When you make a statement about all of porn, which applies only to the kind of porn straight men consume in massive quantities, you're reinforcing the social myth that straight male sexuality is the only sexuality. You're ignoring diversity and pretending it doesn't exist.

I am talking about most porn, which is, coincidentally, hetero "mainstream" porn (because most people are hetero and because the most mainstream porn is of the abusive type), but only because that's how it is in general.

Also my main point was about money being the main reason behind porn, and that applies to video games, erotica and non-abusive pornographic materials.

Money is involved in Fabio novels, but Sonic smut, gay dragon drawings, and cumflation games can all be downloaded for free. If you pay for porn from 2010 onwards, you're either really a big fan of a particular artist and are engaging in a consensual transaction, you're rich, or you're a sucker.

Man, you are focusing too much on single examples, I am talking about an entire industry.

Yes

When I see that I think both should be illegal.

At least that's a consistent viewpoint. What I despise is demonizing sex work but not exploitative labor practices. It's totally illogical to me that people will pride themselves on working 12+ hour days, skip breaks, come in on days off, work nights and weekends and holidays, etc but look down on people who have an OnlyFans or whatever. I don't really understand criticizing one without the other.

Personally, I don't give a shit about sex work. If it were fully legal and workers were protected and everything, I still don't know that I would pay for it, but I sure as shit wouldn't fight to take that choice away from others. It just wouldn't really affect me. Same thing for access to safe drugs or abortions. I'm not going to advocate for other people to not have choices in their personal freedoms, so I guess I'll fight for people to have access even for things I'm not that interested in for myself.

Oh I agree with you on sex work in the present day. I just go a step further for the future. People should work because they want to, not have to. The value of a person's work should not determine the value of the person. One thing I do wonder though. If we didn't have to work, many people still would because they enjoy the work. Would people do sex work in that situation? If they want to, I support thier right to do so. But it was a thought that came to me reading this post, that I haven't fully explored in my head yet.

Excellent question. Idk, I can see indirect sex work like camming or porn still happening because that could be connected to a desire to perform for an audience. Maybe less prostitution but I'm almost certain that it wouldn't go away completely.

Well, I suppose by the time we no longer have to work for a living, we will easily have extremely good sex robots. So it will probably be an irrelevant question.

Thats what it takes, and what we lack today - fighting for personal choice even when we dont like one or more of them.

Instead today people harp about freedom until you even scratch the surface and find out they mean the freedom to make the same choices they did and none other.

I approve of sex work, but I don't approve of the abusive madams and pimps of the world. Usually, they are the problem. Protection should come in a different way.

People break their bodies doing other kinds of work and people don't seem too upset about that.

Some sex work isn't even very physically involved. Take some pictures in the shower. Video yourself rubbing one out. It's not all walking a dark, rainy, street in your underwear.

All workers should be unionized. Or maybe be in a worked owned cooperative. Capitalism will ruin everything eventually.

Everyone should have access to health care and basic needs.

Laws should be written with input what those they would bind and those they affect. Do sex workers want certain requirements? What do medical professionals think is safest? Laws should not be written to appease the nervous stomach of uninvolved parties.

But this is all fired from the hip because I haven't done any real research. My gut feel is that most arguments against it are inconsistent (eg: "it's degrading! But nevermind the job where they literally clean shit off the floor") or personal nonsense (eg: "it's a sin! But I don't care that your worldview doesn't say so")

IMO, sex should be for 2 people (or more for others who prefer polyamory) who wants to be intimate/romantic with each other. My point is money should not be the purpose.

This is your personal opinion and really doesn't justify laws backing it. It's not founded on anything. Also I've got bad news about how a lot of sex isn't intimate nor romantic.

I can't fathom any reluctance coming from the left with respect to unionizing and providing necessary health services to any worker. If people do need to resort to sex work to make a living, then what are they supposed to do when they get older? Do you have to do a "respectable" job just to have the right to ...retire? I feel some arguments come from a cruel place.

Actually the left's arguments come from information from the pornographers involved with digital pyramid schemes that also launder human trafficking by people like Andrew Tate.

Nobody in this thread has even heard of the Nordic Model, which helps get women out of the trade without criminalizing their activities, instead going after pimps. Employing former prostitutes as social workers.

There's no need to rehabilitate women who are just entertaining the prostitution pyramid schemes or in the top brackets (essentially participating as e-madams). It's practically just sharing nudes for pocket change for 99% of those involved.

We can do a lot better than the Nordic Model, by the way!

The "legalize everything" response to the ineffeciveness of crackdowns at eliminating the root cause of social problems - like drug abuse and prostitution - is just libertarianism.

So it's no wonder a bunch of nerdy guys groomed on reddit would be defending this.

The real purpose it to set up a wider market for dubiously sourced videos from human traffickers/kidnappers like Andrew Tate with better monetization than video streaming sites. The people jerking off in the shower are just helping provide cover by moving their nude sharing and cosplay activities into a human trafficking monetization pyramid scheme.

The best money is in the most violent and degrading acts available online. People purchasing sex acts through these platforms do it because the manipulation itself is valuable to them. They enjoy forcing people to do very uncomfortable things I'd rather not describe.

I'm getting all of this from actual sociologists by the way, before I get accused of having the same taste! They do studies on the german prostitution forum posts where they complain about the girls having sore holes and broken backs like it's the wrong sauce on a schnitzel sandwich they ordered. The disgusting behavior is all public and cataloged, but ignored by the sexually desperate men in this thread

Many of you are underselling the exploitative and degrading nature of prostitution by referencing the people drawn into pyramid schemes just sharing their nudes for pocket change

I believe a victimless crime shouldn't be, and that unless a very strong case is made otherwise for a specific person, people can decide what they want for themselves.

Of course people being forced into sex work is bad, but then so is people being forced into working kitchens or call centers. If they decide on it voluntarily that's all good and well.

Also, since I can't resist:

approve of sex work approve sex work

Yes, it's my job to personally rubber stamp every truck stop girl. /s

I personally don't see anything wrong with it, unless it's forced, which is unfortunately common here.

Sex isn't special in the sense of being on a pedestal. Sure, it can be magical in that two people in love come closer together, but that is also true of many intimate experiences. The physical act should not be restricted from being performed, shared, or even monetized because of the sense of morality of others.

Sex workers are working. They may get someone off via their actions, but they're providing a service, same as someone who fixes your broken phone, provides medical care, or unclogs your toilet. It's a form of labor.

My life doesn't include a special realm or being beyond that of people to provide incentives or guidance on how to live. That's entirely decided by people and their own sense of decency. Treat others well, as you'd wish to be treated, and try not to live in a way that negatively affects others. That's the whole of morality to me. I think this will lead to a good life. In no way would paying for or receiving money for sexual acts be affected by it.

Hell, give me enough money and I'll perform whatever sex acts you want.

Absolutely because then we can start talking about protecting and helping the sex workers that need help, and give them a chance to work in a safe environment.

Sex worker have been a thing since at least when we invented writings and still going strong today.

Might be time to give sex workers the dignity and respect they deserve.

Sex worker have been a thing since at least when we invented writings and still going strong today.

I'm pretty sure it was a thing before writing, there was just nobody to write about it.

I know, but we have at least some writings to prove that it happened back then. But sex workers probably exist since the dawn of humanity in a form or another.

It seems like you answered the question "should it be legal", not "do you approve of it".

I could technically disapprove of something and still want it to be legalized, but you normally approve what you want to legalize.

But to be clear, I approve of sex workers because to me, it is a job like any other. But since we built society on puritan values, they get a bad reputation and a terrible work situation.

I could technically disapprove of something and still want it to be legalized, but you normally approve what you want to legalize

A very enlightened and humble attitude. I commend you.

If you believe that laws forbidding gambling, sale of liquor, sale of contraceptives, requiring definite closing hours, enforcing the Sabbath, or any such, are necessary to the welfare of your community, that is your right and I do not ask you to surrender your beliefs or give up your efforts to put over such laws. But remember that such laws are, at most, a preliminary step in doing away with the evils they indict. Moral evils can never be solved by anything as easy as passing laws alone. If you aid in passing such laws without bothering to follow through by digging in to the involved questions of sociology, economics, and psychology which underlie the causes of the evils you are gunning for, you will not only fail to correct the evils you sought to prohibit but will create a dozen new evils as well.

—Robert A. Heinlein, Take Back Your Government

There are other ways in which we sell our bodies in exchange for resources. A lot of people point to soldiers, but for those of us in knowledge work, we sell our brains in exchange for stress and depression if things aren't in balance. Think about construction workers who break their wrists drilling down floorboards, or caregivers that expose their immune systems to a high quantity of kids who are likely to spread any bugs they pick up because they don't know better.

Sex work just involves people selling entertainment or enjoyment in a more intimate setting. The fact that it is intimate doesn't change that it's work, and that resources can be exchanged for service.

I think this all comes down to stereotypes specific to a certain culture. Hoping I see my culture in America make it more legal so we don't have some of the issues that come from this market not being legal

Approve of? I guess. The problem isn't the sex work, it's the way sex workers are treated.

I think making and keeping it illegal, and thus unregulated, is the dumbest damn idea possible for the subject. Totally boneheaded.

Is it something that I would consider a good career even if it was legal? Nope. People suck. And people tend to suck the most with hormones going crazy in their bodies, and sex is one of those things that makes all kinds of chemicals flow. So, seems like a difficult, demanding job under the best of circumstances.

Would I hire a sex worker for myself? Ignoring that I'm happily monogamous, it's unlikely I would for sex. I can see myself hiring a temporary cuddle buddy if I was single, and might do so if I end up a widower some day.

Depending on which jobs you count as sex work, I've known anywhere from a few to dozens of women in the field. Strippers, escorts, phone sex workers, and happy ending masseuses. Nothing but respect for them. Even dated a couple of strippers back in the day. One I was with for long enough to have discussed marriage some day

Do I approve of sex work?

So, yes, sorta, mostly, but I don't think it's straight forward.

For one, sex work is a very broad category that ranges from selling feet pics to having sex to which you wouldn't otherwise consent with strangers. So under that large umbrella of "jobs wherein you assist someone with getting their rocks off in exchange for money" there's a lot of variation and differing considerations for the impacts on the workers and the clients.

So I guess I approve of sex work in the general sense that I approve of any service industry labor that doesn't intrinsically harm the worker or the consumer. But on the other hand, sex work, particularly having sex, and even stuff short of having sex, bares some higher risk than your average behind-the-counter job. There's risks of violence, disease, and emotional or psychological harm, some of which is higher because of illegality or stigma, but some of which is higher simply because of the intrinsically intimate nature of sex. And sure, there is something kinda squicky about commodifying human intimacy.

But on the other hand, the demand is there (not like I don't consume porn), so the supply will always follow to meet it. So best you can do is ensure that whatever labor sex workers do is as safe as possible, and that the people who do the labor do so freely (to the degree possible in a society that's still capitalist).

Absolutely, as long as there is safety and security for all parties involved. Consent must be obeyed by clients and both the clients and employees should be required to supply current STD screens as well as having a safe location for the work.

Work is Work an it should be safe for everyone. Can you imagine the good they could do if that field expanded to Sex Therapy/Counseling. Where they could really help people with sexual disfunction and self esteem.

No, I don't approve of any work. All work should be abolished, including sex work.

If you want the benefits of society you must contribute. Put your money where your mouth is and go start a hippy commune somewhere.

Work as much or as little as you like! Benefit from the fruits of your own labor! Don't ask for a steel ax or nylon tent though. Such goods require an industrial society.

At this point I'm thinking we should legalize prostitution and criminalize dating.

Dating these days is what prostitution would be if it was published by EA. They added gambling mechanics and season passes.

You do know you don't need a dating app for dating, right?

Who said anything about apps?

I probably misunderstood you. What did you mean by "They added gambling mechanics and season passes."?

Okay, let's put it this way:

Head out to Nevada, walk into one of the brothels they got outside Las Vegas. "One sex act, please." "That will be number of dollars." "Here is that number of dollars." "Here is your sex act, and your receipt." "Thank you, have a nice day."

Meanwhile, go wherever it is you think you can meet women. Avoid female coworkers. Meet a girl at a bar and she actually gives you her number, what's the chance she ghosts you after 5 or 6 of the expensive dinner dates she demands you take her on?

I reiterate, dating is like prostitution as published by EA.

sounds like a you problem... banning it for everyone else is not the answer

I don't think this is how dating works. What you describe is just looking for a quick sexual partner, for which prostitution can be more suitable. Dating is about relationships not just about sex, right? You won't get that by taking a number from a random girl in a bar. The easiest way for dating is to make friends first, a nice friend group or two with both men and women, based on shared interests, compatible personalities... Friend groups allow for meeting more people of your kind (friends of friends) and create a prefiltered pool of people where it's much easier to find a partner for a serious relationship. Quite different from prostitution.

I don't think this is how dating works.

lmao, you are so close to understanding what is being said to you, yet clearly so far away...

Ok, so if I'm close, why don't you explain instead of lyao.

Losers of the world unite! All women must be trafficked!

I approve. I think it should be legalized. I'm not sold on the libertarian view of complete decriminalization though. Capitalism is innately exploitative, and If it's not regulated to maintain workers' safety, and rights, then I'd expect working conditions to be just as bad if not worse for the laborers, which I think is a big reason why so many people want to keep it outlawed in the first place.

which I think is a big reason why so many people want to keep it outlawed in the first place.

Well, that and religious indoctrination.

I think it should be legal, with extra protections for the workers to protect them from exploitation and abuse. Unfortunately though, our entire economic system is exploitative, so I’m not sure if it would ever entirely be by choice that somebody turned to prostitution, though labor itself is never entirely by choice. I only work at my job because I have to, not because I really want to. A worker selling their body to perform legal labor for money is on par with a person selling their body for another’s sexual gratification. Making it illegal just makes it worse for the workers, since they’re obviously going to do it anyways and won’t get any protections from the law.

Sex doesn’t always have to be for love, equating it with love is something religious people have forced on the world to get over their own religion-induced guilt over the whole thing. Bonobos have a crazy amount of sex and use it for all sorts of social interactions, it’s something animals do to feel good and relieve stress. There’s instances of other primates even engaging in prostitution as well, where they trade sex for food, and prostitution is one of, if not the oldest job among humans.

No matter what happens, so long as humans exist, they will want to fuck how they like. Its natural for a product of evolution to do it, the taboos against it exist only in our minds (aside from age limitations and informed consent; we still need to be rational) The more it gets stigmatized the worse it'll get for people not already on top of the social heap.

In today's world, we all get fucked one way or another.

Work is work. It deserves every bit of respect and protection as anything else.

Sex work is legal here, and I approve of it. It's hard work and I have a lot of respect for the people who do it.

Edit3: improved wording a bit, and added info below; forgot to add this edit

Legalize and regulate.

I share this view with other issues our society faces as well.

Edit: forgot why.

Why:

Sex work as well as drugs will never be outlawed or enforced fully; looking at drugs, it is used as an excuse to jail the working class for slave labor as well as other things when you follow the money.^[[1] The Wire - Daniels Follows the Money | 01:34 | https://youtu.be/9PaBt441FBQ]

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.^[[2] https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-13/]

If it is strictly voluntary, it is a work If it is forced for any reason, obviously not.

honestly if my body was anything else, I would try an OF or similar.

yes. why? because regardless of my opinion, when you make it illegal you make things worse for everyone. that goes for drugs, for people moving about on the earth, and all other such things.

See, I wasn't really sure, but I think this thread has helped convince me that it's probably okay. I was for sex work before, but then I had heard that countries with more lax sex work laws had more human trafficking. But that might just be a result of work in our moder capitalist hellscape. Part of me thinks sex work should be illegal until capitalist is abolished, but part of that is probably just some ingrained puritan attitudes of sex and personal philosophy about its intimacy. It doesn't mean the state should ban people from selling it and it doesn't mean I have to partake if it's legal.

I'll probably keep reading this thread to evolve my attitudes on the subject more, but thanks everyone for the interesting comments on a subject I don't think about much (sex work... Sex itself I think about all the time lol).

If one person demands sex in return for not harming another, it is called rape and we rightly consider it to be a crime. If one person demands sex in return for not starving the other, many people seem to find it acceptable. I would never dare judge someone for the work they are forced to do by their circumstances, but 'sex work' (or whatever you choose to call it) is absolutely not okay. Those trapped in it deserve better.

My approval is irrelevant. People do it, and people pay for it, so it deserves all the same respect and rights as any other work. No one's value comes from my opinion of what they do to pay the bills, and it is not my place to tell people what sex "should" be.

Sex work wouldnt exist in an ideal world, as its usually not mentally healthy for the sex worker in the long term.

But since we dont live in an ideal world I would rather legalise it and create laws that protect sex workers instead of criminalising them.

Its the same with all drugs (including cigarettes and alcohol).

What are the long term risks associated with being a sex worker? Is that any different than being a long term call center worker or secretary, or construction worker?

Or coal miner, or electrician, or soldier or cop, or park ranger, etc etc etc.

I think it is because having sex is such an inimate thing and as a sex worker you have to do it even with people you are not intimate with and at times when you dont want to be intimate. The sheer number of sex partners probably also doesnt help.

And then there are the assholes who will straight up step over boundaries and directly create trauma.

I live in Germany where sex work legal btw (and I think it should be kept that way).

Comparing the risks to other work is hard, as the risks vary from person to person and from workplace to workplace in each job.

But I would consider doing sex work if I would have to work in a callcenter otherwise lol

I think the opposite. I think sex work as it exists mostly now, wouldn’t be like this in an ideal world. But in an ideal world everything is perfect. So let’s say a world that has ideal economics, people don’t have to resort to this as an act of desperation. But even in such a world, surely there are lonely people? Or people who are just extremely unlucky in love? Or those who don’t have a lifestyle that fits with a long-term relationship? Or those who would like but aren’t ready? The list goes on. One constant that remains in 99.99% of us is one of the most fundamental primal instincts we have - to procreate. This is why food and sex are so enjoyable. Because evolution has led to these things being so great since the genes responsible for that enjoyment have thrived the most and allowed our species to thrive as a whole.

So I think in a world with ideal economics, where everyone can survive and live in health regardless of their luck or opportunities, there will still always be those individuals who crave intimacy and deserve it just as much as anyone. That is where sex workers would be vital.

Literally not different from any kind of therapeutic practitioner.

In an ideal world people who just want casual sex would find each other. And people who want love as well. In an ideal world everyone would also have someone they are an ideal match to.

The only way I see people getting paid to have sex in an ideal world is if they get paid because their sex is so good, like top athletes.

Well I was trying to talk about reality and not fantasy.

We will never live in an ideal world, we can only approach it.

So, yeah, I wasnt referring to reality.

Yes.

If they hurt no one else and infringe on no one else's rights I have no business policing what two consenting adults do with their bodies, time and/or money.

Edit: it should also be totally legal, like all drugs.

Work is work.

Is sex work selling your body? Is doing masonry carpentry or road fixing work anything less than that?

Is sex work ethical? Is working for a weapon manufacture ethical?

I think the point on sex work is a different one: exploitation. That is wrong and should not be allowed or tolerated. But is it avoidable?

The focus should not be on the sex workers tough, but on the clients. The sex workers will always be there as long as there is demand for them.

So, yes, give sex workers the opportunity to work in a safe and not abused environment, so that it can be a choice like any other work. Which means, legalize, regulate, and so on.

im a believer in victimless crimes legalization but I do think it should come with big regulation and not just to collect taxes. Advertising should be restricted to the adult establishments (in other words they should all only be able to advertise at their own places so no billboards on the road but walk into a liquor store and it will be all over once your inside). health and safety should be paramount (both johns and hookers should be regularly tested. hookers monthly and doctors should be able to give one a card to say they show no stds after testing on such and such a date you can get once a year). There should be regulation that establishments cannot have over a 20% and can't charge anything additional if they do take a cut.

Yes.

I used to think it's impossible for a human to "want" sex work and default to the idea that it is inherently exploitative. Don't get me wrong, there is exploitative sex work. But if that part is not present and they are willing to work there, what right do I have to stop them?

Yes and no. I generally don't care what consenting adults do between each other no matter if there is money involved.

BUT: I have also seen the ugly side of sex work due to working as paramedic in some not so nice areas. Very often sex work is not really consensual and very often people are forced into it one way or another. We have to definitely handle this situation as a society. This includes more accessible social welfare (and yet we are miles ahead of the US here), very rigid surveillance of the situation and prosecution of people exploiting sex workers.

Funnily enough I think porn by now is far worse than sex work - while someone can get past sex work somewhat easily (I know a consultant doctor who is a former sex worker) by simply changing the environment it is almost impossible with porn. The internet does not forget and while you can always deny doing sex work for porn there is physical evidence that people did that. Add the upcoming AI fakes and it becomes even more of a problem.

Tbh,I have no idea how we should tackle that problem.

I watched a fairly recent youtube video podcast with a traditional porn actor and an onlyfans performer. The actor (cherie deville) talked about all the control she had, regular testing, and overall safety. The OF performer had none of that and basically described her last on camera act that devolved into SA and extortion. From that, I got the impression there is still some ethical porn out there and a lot that's not since just anyone can create and push content now.

They often say it's the oldest business in the world. Which might not be relevant to how we should treat it as a society today, but what seems obvious to me is that when you de-facto criminalize and discourage something the working conditions are going to suffer.

There probably isn't a place in the world where it isn't practiced yet we love to pretend like we're somehow past that. Not sure how much of that is based in religion and how much is just us being in denial of our own biology-based desires in a secular modern society. Either way it is hurting people who are just as entitled to making a living as anybody else.

I disapprove of other people's choices only when it negatively impacts the life of others. If sex work is legal and regulated and taxed and there is a robust social safety net, then all that's left to disapprove of is the sex itself, which is for religious zealots, not normal people. Sex is a drive honed over hundreds of millions of years, there is literally nothing more normal.

If it has been made illegal, then I may disapprove of the laws which make it illegal (ie: we don't disapprove of anti-trafficking laws), but if such laws are in place, I cannot approve of the illegal work, because unsavory shit comes along with it that negatively impacts other people.

I think it depends by what you mean by support. I support people's legal right to practice all forms of sex work. I think it's silly to outlaw sex work.

On a personal level, I think sex workers are a "final frontier" when it comes to workers' rights and we should stand together in solidarity and demand certain standards for sex work so it can be done ethically. Things like:

  • all sex workers must be independent contractors or cooperatives. They cannot be owned by a company or third party.
  • all sex workers have the same protected privacy status as priests in terms of what they can be compelled to disclose. Everyone should have the right to sexual privacy with their kinks including the sex worker.
  • if a sex worker does want to report suspected illegal activity, they are completely protected. It is up to the worker whether they will disclose information regarding encounters (ps, you DEFINITELY want this. Sex workers hear terrifying things they cannot report for fear of repercussions).
  • it is rape to lure a sex worker into sex under false pretenses (or sexual assault/battery). Including lying about HIV sti status, lying about ability to pay, or lying about anything that would affect her ability to say yes or no to the interaction
  • all sex workers should be allowed to politely decline any client, no repercussions. Including strippers.

----paragraphbreak----

I personally see people as a Dominatrix. I only see people I genuinely like. Due to the nature of people who see Dominatrixes, most of my subs are not sexual anyway, and I decide sex on my terms/comfort. I am polyamorous and very good at FemDomming, so I figured it would be a fun job at the end of the world. I get to meet a lot of people and travel, it's pretty fun. I think if I was doing more survival work it would be different, or if I was doing full service etc. But I genuinely like every sub I take on (otherwise it's really boring and not fun, which defeats the purpose of this job in the first place). Sex work doesn't have to look like a hookup. Usually most people are looking for connection, even with porn and stripping.

If someone is willing to do something I don't want to do and get paid for it, yea, I think it's work.

Yes, as long as everyone involved is consenting. It needs to be destigmatized especially in healthcare settings.

Totally fine, work is work, you decide what you want to do with your life and if that fills the gap more power to you.

We need more regulation though, like Amsterdam where if you're working you have to get weekly check ups, and psychological counseling should be freely available.

Sex work is a good industry but it also harbors trafficking which needs to be cracked down on hard.

Not really. I've never paid for a prostitute, I've never gone to a single strip club in my life or anything. I've only read the horror stories of what porn actors had gone through and it's really not a sustainable way of living.

Sex should be treated as just a consenting activity between two or more people where nobody has to be hurt or wronged in any way for doing.

There's a lot of variables and unchecked liabilities involved when it comes to treating sex as like a job.

I think it's dangerous now, without regulation and protection, and I think it's a long way from how I feel it will eventually come to be viewed; as something more akin to performance art or a form of therapy.

Not gonna lie. I know about 50 women with psych degrees. Out of these 50, exactly 2 of them use those degrees and theyre both escorts.

Women should sue higher education writ large for the swindle that is a psych degree. Any promise that it would lead to work was a known lie. That shit is crack to women. Go figure out yourself, and other people, sprinkle in true crime and look at that. Dean's were more predatory than pimps.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MQD-H08CwTQ

Pretty bold talk for someone who setup a snitch line lol. But it’s a good phrase to follow. Unfortunately lots of people use it when they’re engaging in felonious levels of criminal behavior on a corporate and government level. Hating regulation, wanting small small small government - it’s all because they want to engage in exploitative, unethical, toxic and criminal business practices and they want the government to fuck off about it.

But I digress lol :-)

Like most people say here, if that's something you want to do that's all good so long as you're protected by law and workers' rights and all that jazz. Personally, though, I don't really understand it. I mean, why would anybody want to do this with all the risks (rape, diseases)? I'm open to receiving perspectives and education, currently I just don't really "get" it.

All workers deserve respect. Labor is our means for survival in the modern world, the base good everyone trades for their livelihood.

Regardless of the type of work, all workers deserve respect. Ya gotta eat.

Why not? People have less and less other jobs to do. From stories of courtesans realise that life forced them to do it. So that we understand each other - if you are "bitching", do it not on the side, but officially - because then the other party suffers - in false version.

Yes because it's none of my business what other people do with their autonomy and they should be protected in their right to do what they want to do with their autonomy

Yep. There is definitely a strong market for it. And i firmly believe it alleviates tensions enough to prevent a lot of assaults

If only there were some way to judge if the pornographization of society had led to more assaults and trafficking 🤔

Very cool to steal the arguments pedophiles use to justify what's on their hard drives.

The choice/situation blends in with every occupation so as long as no aggression or wrongful leverage is involved.

No I don’t approve sex work. Who am I? The sex work administration? Do you need a stamp from me to perform sex work? No?

Then who cares?

I think whether anyone approves of it or not is really irrelevant. People have bought and sold sex for thousands of years and will continue to do so.

The only questions is whether you think the sex trade should be illegal or stigmatised. My personal opinion is that criminalising sex work is a fools errand and that it's no ones business if two consenting adults want to trade money for sex.

sex work yeah I sure hope it does!!!!!!!!!!!🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

you, sir, have just won the internet!! 🤣

Always a great question to ask software nerds. Great thread idea dude!

It have side effects on the people who do it: yes, I don't give a flying fuck about it: yes

The purpose of sex should be defined by the participants, not by third parties. Government (public, third party) interest in the private act should be limited to protecting the participants from fraud, undue influence, unexpected diseases, unexpected pregnancies, violence... Basically, so long as everyone involved in the act is aware and freely agrees to the purpose, the actual purpose is functionally irrelevant.

Sex work is work.

I can see regulations against establishing an employer/employee working relationship, and instead mandating a private contractor relationship: an employee can disciplined or fired for failure to perform, or for refusing to serve the employer's customers; a contractor can pick and choose their own clients.

The right of assembly; the freedom of association should broadly protect mutually consensual activities.

it should be decriminalized and it shouldn't be financially compulsory for the desperate

Nope. I believe people should carry, or rather deserve, more dignity than that.

What's your profession and why do you presume there is more dignity in that over sex work?

See how quickly you resort to thinly-veiled insults?

If someone thinks sex work lacks dignity, they clearly have a weird puritanical fixation and they have a lot of growing up to do. Sex workers deserve workers' rights, same as any other profession.

You clearly don't even have the attention span to understand what the Nordic Model is lol.

See, he downvotes and moves on without looking up the Nordic model. You can take the redditor out of reddit, but you can't always take the reddit out of the redditor.

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