I probably should be vegan because I am lucky enough to have the economic privilege to support that kind of lifestyle.
But, as with many other communities centered around lifestyle topics, I would never want to participate in a vegan community. Lifestyle communities always become insular and echo-chambery, so you become a pariah if you don't properly adhere to 100% of the community consensus behaviors.
Not just vegans, but you see it happen with fitness communities, diy/home decor, a lot of hobbies, etc.
I'm just keeping an eye out for good recipes.
Let me know if you find any favorites, I am down for anything easy and quick if they're out there (as long as it's not more rice and beans).
so you become a pariah if you don't properly adhere to 100% of the community consensus behaviors.
You don't pocket mulch?!
I’m a level 5
Just don't interact with communities you dislike. It's a pretty bad excuse to blame other people for your decisions.
Abstaining from animal murder and torture is admirable and something I should do OTOH some internet commenters are mean about it
I wonder why they would be mean...
Good job! This is the comment that made them turn vegan! Mission accomplished!
That's not the goal. They attack people because that makes them feel better. Animals? Who cares. Definitely not them.
I'm a cow and this made me feel better about my fate
yes. it is the vegans who really hate animals!
What I said is that you don't help animals with your hysteria. So I can conclude vegans struggle with logic. At least in your case.
brutal take down. nice
it definitely seems so sometimes
and never the people who fund an industrial killing machine for food we don't actually need and will kill us both individually and collectively.
I was going to stop torturing animals, but some mean vegan said some words that hurt my feelings.
So now I'm going to eat two burgers!
chortle!
I think I will actually do this now just to prove you wrong
legendary!
If your belief lives or dies because of some internet comment it won't last anyway.
Edit: as in, what sustains it is the actual moral implications of a non-vegan lifestyle. I was convinced to go vegan by internet comments like this.
See here’s what’s really really funny, people over and over again say “man if the vegan people who were trying to convince me could just not be gigantic assholes about it then maybe it would be easier to join their community”
And then you come along and are a gigantic asshole about it and prove the entire point.
Super solid representation, 5/7, perfection.
Having a reasonable discussion with these people is like trying to play a game of chess with a pigeon. They'll topple all the pieces, shit on the board and claim victory.
Gonna copy large chunks of my last comment because no ones there to stop me.
This isn't a debate like how should we reduce plastic accumulation or the carcinogenic properties of red meat. Not supporting slavery and murder should be the norm, not something that needs to be argued for at length. Being vegan is not doing something good, but not being vegan is doing something evil. This is our position. If someone can't accept that what their doing is evil but needs to be asked nicely not to kill the screaming orphan who never got to meet his mom because we wanted to steal her milk then they won't accept that it is an actual real evil that is taking place. It will remain a theoretical. But there really is a room where these orphans are brought to be murdered. A person murdering them. And a mother who screamed bitterly over losing their newborn. It is a real evil and being polite about it masks the horror taking place not to mention is completely insincere since we aren't interested in debating or in weighing pros and cons. It's a horrific injustice and we will talk about it as such. There is an evil inherent to not being vegan. Fuck the non-vegans.
this is pretty much just appeal to emotion.
Here is another one: That meat on your plate comes from an animal that could feel. It had a whole life full of feelings and dreams. It might've liked some food but disliked other, it probably had friends, it had a mom and a dad, it was loved. Then they killed it, shipped it, you cooked it and ate it.
very good. have you considered creative writing as a career?
thing is, it's a philosophy of empathy and compassion. you don't really join a.commmunity.
there are no V cards I'm afraid.
This discussion is literally about the vegan community here on Lemmy
I thought it was more about abuse.
If you need people to be nice to you to convince you, you care more about appearances than the argument. If people being rude stops you from acting on something you actually believe in you won't last a month as a vegan.
Going vegan means changing your habits, giving up a lot of your treats with nothing in return. You will be the weird one at christmas that needs "special" catering, people have to choose restaurants based on your habits and you will be the butt of a lot of jokes simply because you care about animals not being enslaved. If you need people to be nice to you, and applaud you and make you feel all warm and fuzzy to keep that going you won't last.
The first lesson every vegan needs to learn is: there are no rewards and no one will compliment you. You are doing this out of your own conviction and not for anyone else.
This is precisely the circlejerking mentioned in the meme. Whether true or not, the community presents itself as unwelcoming and self-aggrandizing. These are not traits that easily convince people to listen to the cause.
There's nothing to listen to, either you believe animal ag is horrendous and unethical and act on it or you don't. That's it. No pretty pleases are going to convince someone they have to give up their beloved steak and cheese for nothing in return.
Then why are you trying so hard to explain yourself?
Right, we get it, but if you tried attracting people to veganism with amazing recipes, and annecdotes of how much healthier you feel, people might come have a conversation and try making some vegan food. Instead these communities drive anyone non-vegan right out the door.
What's the expression? Honey will catch more flies?
Reformism doesn't work. People that are vegan because it's "actually really good food" or looking for applause for "saving the planet" stop being vegan once it becomes too inconvenient. Because their mindset is that they are doing something good and you can stop doing good things or balance them out with other good deeds and there is an inherent expectation of a reward for being good.
Not supporting slavery and murder however should be the norm, not something that feels like a burden. Being vegan is not doing something good, but not being vegan is doing something evil. This is our position. If someone can't accept that what their doing is evil but needs to be asked nicely not to kill the screaming orphan who never got to meet his mom because we wanted to steal her milk then they won't accept that it is an actual real evil that is taking place. It will remain a theoretical. But there really is a room where these orphans are brought to be murdered. A person murdering them. And a mother who screamed bitterly over losing their child. It is a real evil and being polite about it masks the horror taking place not to mention is completely insincere since we aren't interested in debating or in weighing pros and cons. This isn't a debate like how should we reduce plastic accumulation or the carcinogenic properties of red meat. There is an evil inherent to not being vegan. Fuck the non-vegans.
Not supporting slavery and murder however should be the norm
it is. most people oppose slavery and murder.
Animal agriculture isn't slavery. I can tell your exact skin tone by the fact you had the gall to make that comparison cx
Stealing labor while keeping the laborers alive at the barest minimum possible and trading them as property is slavery.
Going vegan means changing your habits, giving up a lot of your treats with nothing in return. You will be the weird one at christmas that needs “special” catering, people have to choose restaurants based on your habits and you will be the butt of a lot of jokes simply because you care about animals not being enslaved. If you need people to be nice to you, and applaud you and make you feel all warm and fuzzy to keep that going you won’t last.
If belligerent internet comments actually convinced you to change your diet in such an inconvenient manner for no reward but moral superiority, you are not like the people you're trying to convince. Abusers and cults love bomb because its more effective on a random sample of people
If one believes that the mother losing her newborn cries about it for days and that this is happening on an industrial scale that person will be very indignant about such a horrific injustice. That's what convinced me, this is a real injustice and not being angry about it would be insincere
Convincing people to be ethical past the point of inconvenience requires insincerity, yes. The average person is a horrible human being
@Stovetop did not say nor implied that he/she is not vegan, because of the community.
I probably should be vegan ... But ... I would never want to participate in a vegan community.
Seems pretty clear to me.
You can take part in something without taking part in the community about that thing, though. I play guitar a lot, but I don't frequent any guitar-based communities
I'm fully aware, but "I'm not going vegan because they're so annoying" is a pretty common excuse.
It is a common excuse. And yet you're still being really annoying.
Not only is that clearly not the reason in this case, of what you say is true (and I believe it considering your behavior) that's a pretty damning indictment about your collective personalities.
Youre blaming OTHERS for leaving your cause because YOU'RE impossible to put up with. Pathetic. The literal definition of that meme where the dude puts the stick into his bike spokes and then cries about it.
If you hate non-vegans so much then stop talking to them. Simple as.
Im saying if someone stops being vegan because of what people say they dont actually hold the moral conviction that torture, rape and murder of any animal is wrong. I'm not crying about others leavinge "the cause" Im angry at the smugness and how readily people will accept any excuse in order to keep the literal orphan crushing machine going.
I gave being vegan a go but stopped because I couldn't keep up with it.
Working 60-hour weeks makes it hard to meal prep, so I order out a lot, and there aren't many vegan friendly dining options in my area.
I ended up skipping a lot of family gatherings because Cantonese food isn't all that vegan friendly. The one thing I never wanted to be was "that guy" who needed a special menu when invited to social events, so I thought it was easier to just withdraw. Being very lactose intolerant as a kid did not help in that regard when friends would want to go out for ice cream or eat birthday cake and I'd always feel like "that guy".
At a particularly low point for me, when I was eating the same garden salad for dinner for 2 weeks straight, I ended up having a bit of a breakdown. My therapist said that it is admirable to be vegan, but my behavior at the time was verging on having a martyr complex, and that I should stop punishing myself to make a point.
I'm currently a pescatarian, which is the only concession I could make at present to let myself eat my family's home-cooked meals that are usually made with a fish sauce of some sort. I'd like to try going vegan again at some point when I'm in a better mental space, but it's something that some of us have to find our way into gradually.
I don't know you and if you're being sincere about your harm reduction then that's great. There is no ethical consumption under capitalism, the clothes I wear I made from human slavery, the produce from the exploitation of migrant workers. But people want to be blind to this so they can enjoy their treats in peace while there is a world of suffering around us, that's what gets me so riled up. The wilful ignorance.
Then you need to go back to school for reading comprehension, because being a vegan and participating in a community about veganism are not the same thing, not even remotely close.
and yet that seems to be the stated reason...
Only because you're inferring a lot from a couple comments. You don't know why they aren't vegan (which could be for any number of reasons), the only thing you know, and are basing your entire assumptions on, is that they don't want to hang out in spaces full of insufferable vegans.
Isn't this something that the fediverse was explicitly designed to support?
We're making fun of them for making use of one of the foundational features of the platform?
If they don't like it there, they can move again. And again. Or host their own instance.
Idk what this creepy vicarious butthurt is about, or why it has become so popular.
Circle jerking against vegans is a pasttime of the Internet denizens
Yeah, but it's a pretty pathetic passtime. At least find a good reason, rather than doing literally the thing you want them to do.
Like, insulting them for leaving is just as bad as them crying that their toxic behavior scares people away. It makes no sense.
I mean this kind of a perfect example of doing the thing where you blow shit up over an extremely pedantic issue which is at best tangentially related to the core ethic, specifically because you view nuance itself as a threat. As far as purity tests dissolving into self parody, I'm not sure there's a better example for veganism.
And I say this as a person who otherwise sympathizes with vegans, but often finds them insufferable. Self awareness is the vaccine to self parody.
Like a family camping trip, classic fun. Pitch a tent, start a fire, roast some vegans and sing kumbaya
Yes, this is a feature of the fediverse, and we're celebrating it here.
When shitty toxic communities create issues for the wider Lemmyverse, instance admins can lay down some ultimatums.
On the toxic community's instance, the instance's admins can demand that the toxic community correct their behavior, or the community and its offending users will get banned.
On other instances, offending communities can be blocked, and if users are regularly misbehaving, instance admins can pressure each other to enforce basic community conduct, or face defederation.
Once a community is given an ultimatum, they can either change their behavior to meet the expectations of the wider Lemmyverse, or they can find an instance that will allow their behavior.
If they choose to migrate to another instance, it will likely be a more extremist instance with poor moderation that has been significantly defederated. They have to exist within that narrow network of fringe instances now, giving them significantly less reach to harass or spread disinfo or whatever got them booted from the last place they called home.
And us users play a central role here. When we see communities doing harm, whether they are endorsing fascism, or pedophilia, or animal abuse, we need to stay "not here you don't" and demand that action be taken.
When those communities end up migrating to some fringe instance full of dipshits, we need to applaud the mods and admins that sent them there, and let them know that their hard work was appreciated.
Federation works. Every fringe community in exile is proof of that. This is all one big community effort, so we can't stay silent about what's happening and expect that it all gets taken care of behind the scenes.
If they choose to migrate to another instance, it will likely be a more extremist instance with poor moderation that has been significantly defederated.
In theory this is how it should work, but in practice the toxic people tend to move to general purpose more laissez-faire places like .world or .ml, which makes de-federating and cutting off 30% of all users a difficult decision for anyone trying to have a community.
The answer is less centralization, but that can't be forced. beehaw.org (for example) made the decision to cut off .world and they are better for it. But they are a large-ish instance in their own right.
So if you dont agree with someone they are an extremist, got it.
You are aware vegan cats exist right? Like its already a thing, and its being studied.
Y'all are so confidently wrong about stuff its crazy, and then y'all pat yourselves in the back for all grouping up and agreeing together.
Just because a lot of people are on one side of a position does not make it the right position, you must be aware there is more to think about right?
I didn't say extremist I said toxic but really anyone who's poorly socialized will go where they're allowed, which in Lemmy terms means general catch-all instances with loose moderation like .world and .ml.
One study estimated 1% of cat owners feed their cat a vegan diet. Why do you think that might be? Are they all extremist animal abusers? Or is it possible you had an assumption that turned out to be wrong and now don't know how to reconcile?
One study estimated
ok, you already lost me
Yes, if you are not feeding your pet a proper diet and are allowing it to suffer, you are an animal abuser.
Yes and no. The theory is that each instance is supposed to be more specialized, kind of like the old BBS that used to be rampant on the internet. If you are moving to an instance just because people disagree with you instead to have more discussion over a specific topic that is not really in line with the purpose of the fediverse.
Sure you can ally yourself with the CCP and that might be totally legal (if they collect any personal data and send it overseas to China then that would be breaking the law but it's unlikely) but that doesn't mean it isn't frowned upon.
That's a stretch, but even assuming it's true, why do you care enough about their community to frown upon it?
I have opinions on a lot of things that don't effect me at all. Palestinian genocide, Uighurs in sweatshops, child labor laws in other states, homeless people being harassed, the socioeconomic shift of Hong Kong losing independent legal rights.
I can respect their freedom to ally themselves to people who wish them direct harm, but I also have the freedom to express my disappointment in them.
It's just disguised metadrama. They joined the instances this instance doesn't like.
And so they're moving, and somehow y'all are... Upset about it???? Make it make sense
I don't see anyone upset about it.
Making fun of them, yes. But not upset.
Making fun of them for doing what you want?
Or do you want them to stay?
How do you come to either of those conclusions?
They're leaving.
Y'all are making fun of them for leaving.
If you want them to leave, as people often told them to do, why are you making fun of them for it? Why do you care where they go?
If you don't want them to leave, why are you being mean to them?
That's not why people make fun of them.
We're making fun of them for getting forced out. We're saying "good riddance". Nobody is sad that the vegans are leaving, that community is so malicious that most people are cheering on their departure.
You're the one that seems upset here. You seem hurt by our celebration. If you want, you can always follow the vegans to the cesspit they're moving to in solidarity.
I mean, leaving .world is a pretty fair response. That community is full of insufferable idiots, but an admin overrode their moderating decisions, and then the admin team made up rules to retroactively justify their decision. That's pretty egregious.
I'm no fan of Lemmy.world but I'm even less of a fan of dead cats.
Yeah, to be clear, you should not feed your cat a Vegan diet. Cats are obligate carnivores. Synthetic Taurine has made vegan catfood somewhat more viable, but cats don't just need Taurine from prey. They need several vitamins, amino acids, and fatty acids from animal protein to survive. Beyond that, their digestive tract isn't very efficient at digesting plant matter, so even if these foods have the nutritional value they need, they might not be absorbing it. Also, a lot of these products seem to be made from grains and other carb heavy products, and cats need a very low carb, high protein diet. If you want to completely divest from the meat industry, you simply shouldn't own a cat.
That being said, Vegan catfood products are on the market, so whether or not they are good for cats, they have been approved by several regulating bodies. You can claim that they're unsafe (I certainly do), but having an admin nuke a comment section for claiming otherwise is a huge overreaction. It would be like going into a vape community and banning accounts that claimed vaping is safer than smoking; it probably isn't, but I don't need admins deciding who gets to have discourse about that.
Finally, I'm also not a fan of dead cats, but if you're dumb enough to take veterinary advice from an internet vegan group, you're probably too dumb to keep a cat alive anyway.
Vegan catfood products are on the market, so whether or not they are good for cats, they have been approved by several regulating bodies
Yeah, that's not how it works. Especially in countries with extreme regulatory capture like the US.
Unless a product has text that says in a very specifically worded way that it's been tested and approved by a relevant regulatory body, it hasn't.
The fact that something hasn't been taken off the market YET does not necessarily mean that it's been approved. Especially not when you're dealing with politically volatile stuff that could lead to lengthy public lawsuits sapping the resources of the already chronically underfunded and understaffed agencies.
If it's vegan food for obligate carnivores, it MIGHT technically be "safe" (as in won't be outright lethal), but for the reasons you yourself mentioned, it's likely to significantly decrease the animal's enjoyment of life at best and more likely to be downright torturous.
It would be like going into a vape community and banning accounts that claimed vaping is safer than smoking
Except for the fact that those accounts would be absolutely right and have reams of scientific evidence from the world's foremost experts in related fields to back up their claims. Unlike the people abusing cats in the name of not abusing animals.
it probably isn't
It is. It's not even anywhere near the next city over from the neighborhood of close.
but I don't need admins deciding who gets to have discourse about that
Except limiting the spread of dangerous misinformation, such as common myths that are keeping smokers away from one of if not THE most effective smoking cessation tool, is a big part of what admins are FOR.
if you're dumb enough to take veterinary advice from an internet vegan group, you're probably too dumb to keep a cat alive anyway
Yeah..that's not a valid argument either. A lot of vegans avoid getting a cat because they're too overzealous in their veganism to even want carnivorous animals to eat meat.
The Venn diagram of people vegan enough to love carnivores but refuse to give them meat and people who would trust a vegan online echo chamber more than competent veterinarians is a circle within a bigger circle.
Well, various vegan catfoods have been approved for use in not only the U.S. but also the E.U., but your point about regulatory capture is fair. Unfortunately, it's undercut by your support for vaping, a nicotine product brought to market with an insane lack of oversight. Ironically, most of what you're complaining about with the cat food is exactly what makes vaping so dangerous. We don't have as much research or long-term studies on the effects of vaping to say it's as dangerous as smoking, but we know that they contain propylene glycol and vegetable glycerin, which are toxic to cells, aldehydes, which are associated with lung disease and heart disease, acrolein, which can cause COPD, asthma and lung cancer, as well as various heavy metals. I'm pretty sure that a lot more people will die of vaping than cats will die of veganism. That being said, I don't think people who support vaping should be removed from lemmy for using a product that's probably unsafe, and and it's not the job of admins or moderators to stop people from taking bad health advice from strangers on the internet.
In the UK the NHS is advocating for vaping as a way to stop smoking, and it works. Also, i don't know where you get your information about VG and PG (especially regarding their toxicity), but i am more than sure that your information is outdated/obsolete by now.
A large part of your cells walls are made out of vegetable glycerin. The LD50 for rats is about 12g/kg body weight (mice 8g/kg) when ingested (so about 1kg for a 100kg human), and the seen adverse effects when inhaling were minimal and only visible in hourlong exposures at the highest tested concentration.
Propylene Glycol has an even higher LD50 in rodents (20 GRAMS/kg b.w.) and is in use in every theatre in the world for fog and smoke effects (in HUGE volumes in contrast to vaping - i vape a lot and am somwhere between 5-10ml VG/PG 1:1 per day) for ages now, and there would have been found a correlation between stage workers and lung cancer by now. It's widely used in the agricultural sector as a feed additive in pretty large quantities too.
you get acrolein when the e-cigarette overheats. modern devices should not even really do this anymore.
The heavy metals are a hypothesis i heard in the beginning and for which i haven't seen any source in the last 5 years. At least if you aren't overheating your NI80 coils on purpose to a dull red glow. all my homies use SS316 for smooth automatic temperature control :-)
I'm with you regarding the aroma additives (which i assume you meant as source for aldehydes); not many of those have been tested regarding inhalation (except for aromatherapy probably), and they might prove to be detrimental. i also believe that if i had kept my pack or two a day hobby for much longer, it would have had a real chance of killing me. i am also advocating that this stuff should be 18+ - by that age the whole "peer pressure" thing that led to me starting smoking with 14 should be mostly over.
in the end, the most important part is: i choose to use e-cigarettes since it's harm reduction in comparison to smoking (and nothing else worked for me), and i know that it would be healthier not to do it. cats don't have much choice regarding their food, especially when combined with an religiously motivated owner.
I feel like nobody is approaching this from a consent aspect either. If someone offers their cat an array of cat food options and makes an actual honest attempt to determine a long term preference and the cat legitimately prefers the vegan cat food, then that's way less problematic than saying "you will eat this weird food or you will starve."
The forced veganism thing just feels a lot like saying "studies show that a human can technically survive on roaches and rat feces as long as they get a vitamin C supplement."
I just wanted to add: the reason why most carnivores go for the digestive tract first when eating their prey is that they eat the predigested plant matter with the entrails, making those nutrients much more readily available to them.
It's a shame; i'm sure there are vegans feeding their cats this way, and when those animals lose muscle mass quickly, the first thing that gets really damaged by that are their kidneys - and this does normally only get noticed shortly before the cat is going to die. And it's an ugly death. I've had a young cat which had nearly dead kidneys when we got her, and it's pure torture for them - we tried everything we could, but there's not much to be done after they show symptoms. That one "study" that other poster is throwing around with the owner-reported feedback regarding the health of their cats has actual negative worth.
What if we raise them in a factory farm and eat them instead? Don't worry though. We will force feed them a carnivore diet in their tiny cages
Bruh. This is why I don't like folks from vegan communities. So full of misinformation and vitriol regarding farming practices. Dead, malnourished and diseased cattle are worthless to a farmer, so they intentionally don't keep them in conditions like these crazies describe.
That said I am trying to cut down on my meat consumption because meat production is more climate intensive than vegetables, and my diet is not as vegetable-heavy as it should be. But you folks make it so hard to feel good about making positive changes like that
They literally do though? Have you ever seen a chicken farm? Or a mink farm? Or dozens of different examples of factory farming?
A few dead animals don't matter if you can fit in 20x the amount of chickens in the same space
Not a mink farm but I've been to cow, goat, sheep, pig and chicken farms. You know what you get with 20x the herd in the same space? 200x the disease risk and 20x the loss when you have to cull the entire herd because the USDA started investigating why your cattle tested positive for [insert nastiness here]. Sick cattle are a great way to lose the farm that's been in the family for generations. Healthy cattle are how you give your kids the option to choose to continue farming
because they challenge your biases you dont like them. classic
I agree entirely. Let's end the factory farming of cats.
What is your intent when replying like this? Did you intend to have a conversation and a sharing of views? Is it just about mocking the hypocrisy what you assume my views to be?
You replied only with questions without answering theirs, how rude.
If thats true then everyone should probably start leaving .world. If they cant even behave themselves with something as simple as veganism, then you cant trust them to not powertrip with actually controversial political issues.
Maybe, but this seems like a problem that's bigger than a single instance. A few months back someone came with some pretty good receipts showing .ml admins going after people for having some very fair and moderate criticisms of China. Seems like most instances either have power tripping mods or are too small to have much activity.
The issues with dot ml and dot world are hardly comparable. I've had my concerns with some of the world admin actions (flip-flopping, lack of communication) but I do believe they are trying in good faith. I'm still happy to be registered and to make my communities elsewhere but for now I don't see them as being nearly as egregious as ml.
you cant trust them to not powertrip with actually controversial political issues.
I mean they "preemptively defederated hexbear as a last resort" for fear they might discuss politics, so that ship has sailed.
Shush tankie.
Adding animal abuse to their TOS was a good move. I'm surprised it wasn't already there.
Encouraging people to feed a cat a vegan diet is a call to abuse a cat through deliberate malnourishment.
Mods on c/vegan were directly calling for animal abuse, and censoring anyone countering them.
I stand with the admins on this. Zero sympathy for animal abusers.
leaving .world is a pretty fair response
Okay, .world account...
Agreed, except when it's being done to retroactively justify your actions.
I think it's a very bad idea to feed a cat a Vegan diet, but there are vegan products being sold on the market, and if you want to feed your cat one of these products, you should discuss them with a vet or other qualified professional. Regular dry food contains way more carbohydrates than cats are meant to have in their diet, which can lead to obesity and diabetes in cats. Are people who feed their cats dry food animal abusers? Should the Lemmy admins start policing the use of dry food?
The mods of c/vegan were trying to assert their ability to moderate their own sub as they saw fit in the face of a massive overreach from the admin. I think they're the most insufferable community I've seen on this instance, but they should have the right to moderate their own community.
And yes, I'm on .world, but very little of my identity is tired up in my lemmy instance, and I'm certainly not going to bat for the .world admins when they do something crazy.
And yes, I'm on .world, but very little of my identity is tired up in my lemmy instance, and I'm certainly not going to bat for the .world admins when they do something crazy.
Just please make an alt account if you intend on cresting any communities.
I see a lot more vegan hate than vegans.
No one hates vegans. Almost everyone hates vegan extremists.
No one hates vegans, but everyone loves to post vegan hate or idiotic "bacon" posts.
Of all the delicious meats to be obsessed about, redditbros went and picked one of the least appealing ones and decided to make it their entire personality 💀
For real. I've been vegetarian for a few years now and of all the things I kind of miss, not once has bacon been even a slight craving. A good kebab on the other hand...
The vast majority of people love bacon and bacon memes and jokes are part of the mainstream culture. Do you accommodate non-vegans? Why do you expect them to accommodate you?
Do you accommodate non-vegans?
That's because they don't consider non-veganism a morally acceptable option.
As a thought experiment, pick any action that you would personally find morally repugnant and ask yourself if you should accommodate people who do that action.
Precisely. They make the same mistake that all extremists make. They believe that they are morally superior which justifies anything they say or do to anyone they see as inferior. The problem is that the rest of the world does not agree with them so they are reviled for their antisocial behaviour then constantly whine about how the people they harangue treat them badly.
Just because the rest of the world doesn't agree with them doesn't mean they're wrong, though. Societal norms progress with splinter groups that are willing to put their convictions above group conformity. The process is always unpleasant.
Yup, that's exactly the mistake that extremists make. There is a great quote from a judgement out of a court in the UK. Let me find it...
“But the plain fact is that each of you has some time ago crossed the line from concerned campaigner to fanatic. You have appointed yourselves as the sole arbiters of what should be done about climate change, bound neither by the principles of democracy nor the rule of law.
“And your fanaticism makes you entirely heedless of the rights of your fellow citizens. You have taken it upon yourselves to decide that your fellow citizens must suffer disruption and harm, and how much disruption and harm they must suffer, simply so that you may parade your views.”
This really sums it up. Sometimes fanatics are right. Often, they are wrong. Their ability to self-absolve their abhorent antisocial behavior is why so many people so violently hate them and it's the reason that many vegans feel like they are being painted with the same brush. They've appointed themselves holy crusaders who will bully, harass, and intimidate anyone who doesn't agree with them.
Yet without the radicals that are willing to rock the boat, our society would be morally stagnant and unable to progress. We're literally having the conservative/progressive debate.
I assume the case you're referring to is the recent Just Stop Oil case? I personally see the judge's decision as incredibly short sighted. He's put short term convenience above averting global catastrophe for all life on earth. In my view, it is he who has caused his fellow citizens harm, and on a much wider scale.
Self-absolution. I understand it but it is a logical failure.
Should anti-LGBTQ fanatics who are absolutely convinced that they are morally superior be able to discriminate against LQBTQ people?
Should anti-abotionists who are absolutely convinced that they are morally superior be able to harass and threaten women making the most difficult decision of their life? Should they be allowed to fire bomb clinics? Shoot abortion doctors and nurses?
Should white spremacists who are absolutely convinced of their racial superiority be allowed to refuse service to people of color? Burn crosses on lawns? Hang people of color from trees by the neck?
Where does the vegan fanatics self-absolution end? Fire bombing restaurant? Pipe bombs wrapped in nails in crowded restaurants that serve meat?
The ability to self-absolve is very VERY dangerous. It permits fanatics to justify any ammoral horror in the name of their mistaken moral purity.
Except you can say this literal exact thing about the opposites too
Should black people have just stayed slaves and not have rights even though "they are absolutely convinced they should have"? Should us queer people never fight back and fight for acceptance? Etc etc.
The actual difference is the arguments for the specific position. What sound arguments are there for racism and slavery? What sound arguments are there for queer-phobia? What sound arguments are there for not following a vegan diet beyond "it tastes good"?
Where does the vegan fanatics self-absolution end? Fire bombing restaurant? Pipe bombs wrapped in nails in crowded restaurants that serve meat?
Usually it ends at the terrifying act of talking with people, because harming them would be explicitly against their own philosophy.
But yeah, it's totally like a jihad or something.
That's self-serving nonsense. Vegan extremists have been harassing and intimidating restaurateurs and their patrons attempting to drive them out of business or to comply with their demands to stop serving meat. That is not, "the terrifying act of talking".
What if you're mistaken about being morally superior? What if your actions toward other humans demonstrate a complete lack of any morality?
I wish that was true (and I'm not even vegan) but there are many outspoken anti-vegans. But then again they're the types who will always find an out group to denigrate (in before someone oh-so-cleverly points out I'm doing the same to them).
I think that you will find that these anti-vegans are reacting to the behaviour of the extremist.
I don't disagree, but then they'll apply their hatred to the whole (or at least majority) of the group
That, unfortunately, is how it goes. If the only vegans that most people deal with are the obnoxious assholes then they assume that every vegan is an obnoxious asshole.
The community of non-vegans is a lot bigger than that of the vegans. So vegans do something that gets a reaction, you are much more likely to hear that reaction than the original thing.
They're easy to hate - They're weird, eat funny foods, care about things nobody else does (who cares about chickens) and my god is there a subset of them that are the most truly obnoxious human beings (a statement that is, conveniently, true of every single group of humans). They're basically furries for the non-internet crowd. Nobody ever interacts with them to know it, so they get defined by the strawmen people create of them.
Edit: It's possible my explanation of why vegans are disliked has touched a nerve. To clarify; I don't think this, hell I eat vegan meals most of the time, but these are the qualities given to the Strawman Vegan that everyone onlines seems to love to hate. (I also quite like furries.)
The cause has been tainted by the extremists, to the point where even some vegans are being pushed away from the movement.
Of course, the ones that are on a niche media platform, in a community dedicated to veganism, are likely to be the nutter ones.
Yikes. You know, vegans are targeted by the extremely wealthy & powerful meat & dairy industries who spend untold fortunes making the vegan lifestyle look as unappealing and "crazy" as possible?
I mean, I'm sure you're galaxy brain is impervious to propaganda and everything, I'm just saying, you're painting with an awfully broad brush.
That's getting a bit tinfoil hat, don't you think?
Or its tracing the money and influence of different lobbies in America. Just look at the original gerrymandered food pyramid made to accommodate the dairy industry. Or lawsuits against plant based alternatives.
I think the cause has been tainted by the rampant propagandizing and demonization across all forms of media that the movement has been subjected to. You're doing it now, even - what the hell even is an "extremist vegan"?
Extreme vegans are the people who stand outside restaurants, grocery stores, butcher shops, etc. and yell at people just trying to go about their lives calling them carnists, corpose munchers, blood mouths, animal torturers, and talk about murdering animals (murder is the killing of one human by another) or eating cadavers (a cadaver is a dead human body.) They don't simply go about their lives living their best vegan life but harass and harangue people. They do the same thing online.
You should read the post the vegan@lemmy.world mods made in response to the admin actions. Phrases like "carnist Lemmy admin", as if that's the reason they didn't like the idea of starving a cat.
There was also a comment saying Vegan should be a protected belief, like other religions.
It's not a conspiracy by the meat and dairy industry.
A carnist lemmy world instance admin has stepped in and meatsplained to the mods
It's difficult to take people like this seriously.
who cares about chickens
Most people. Anyone who isn't a psychopath cares to some extent about animals, vegan or non-vegan
I hate chickens. They're loud, obnoxious, and they kill and eat each other. That doesn't mean that I'm going to abuse them. I take good care of my chickens despite the fact that they're assholes.
They’re loud, obnoxious, and they kill and eat each other.
They're just like us! 😌
Pretty much.
I think it's funny how quickly the outspoken anti-vegan types deliver the "I actually think it's ok to torture animals" completely unprompted
Can you find me a sample of someone saying, "I actually thing it's ok to torture animals"? I'd be intersted to see that if it's actually happening. Or, are you creating a straw man?
Literally that post's grandparent, which is the subject of that post?
Can you link me to the place where it says these words?
"I actually think it's ok to torture animals"
Your honor, my client never explicitly said the words "I'm requesting a bribe".
This is the reason that people hate vegan extremists.
I had a pet chicken in elementary school. She was a sweetheart.
My biggest gripe with vegan communities is that a lot of them have an "All or Nothing" mentality, going fully vegan is a luxury not everyone can afford, and yet I find mainly malice when trying to talk about reducing ones own reliance on meat and other animal products in online communities.
And veganism, if taken to the "no suffering of sentient beings" full extreme, forbids buying things (not just food) produced by slavery. And those things, especially electronics and clothes, are not financially viable for most to be bought without any slavery involved in any step whatsoever.
Unsolicited advice: Your goal is to do no more or less than the best you can. If you're doing that, no one got shit on you.
Which is precisely why they will get along with the tankies so well. Both treat the very idea of nuance as an existential threat to the point where everything much be driven by the most extreme degree of moral panic or nothing at all.
Vegan diets are popular in third world countries because they're considerably cheaper. Meat is cheap in western countries because it's very often subsidized by governments. Meat consumption by wealth proves eating animals is a luxury.
Also veganism mantras always have "as far as is practicable". I bought a Samsung phone because Fairphones don't work here in Australia.
vegan diets in third world countries are cheaper because they generally just end up being 90% filler starches and still have woefully bad nutrition outside of being calories
Save animals and switch to orphan-meat
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
I had a look at the community yesterday, every post bar one was about vegan cat food for the last week. They're not taking this well at all.
I just had a look myself after your comment and cannot confirm your claim at all. There are, understandably, quite a few posts about this debacle and the future of their sub but more than half is stuff related to veganism not related to cats.
Yeah I respect vegans, and applaud them for their life choices. I'm not in a position to, or willing at this point to become a vegan, but I looked at their community... Mostly insults when referring to any meat eater. Yeah, I respect them a fair bit less now.
Lemmy dot world definitely doesn't circlejerk, no siree.
I mean, they're the biggest instance, of course there is going to be circle jerking, but it also has more dissenting voices to push back against people who are just plain wrong.
Lol
casual drive-by meme;
"oh no, the vegans are leaving!" said no-one ever
"We taught a lion to eat Tofu"
I mean what a fucking mountain to die on. Bravo to all involved this has been quite entertaining.
I suspect the mountain to die was the admin actions removing moderators. Vegan cat food is pretty rarely discussed amongst actual vegans. It just happens to appear to be a "wedge issue" that kind of looks like a gotcha if you squint, thus it's beloved by anti-vegan trolls.
It's the trans women in sports of veganism, it's such a small part of the issue and no one in the group will usually bring it up. But people who are against them will use it to discredit and divide them even though they don't really care about the underlying issues they claim to be for: women's sports, cat nutrition and the way larger problems with them.
Lol as a trans woman and a far left sympathizer get fucked
"You can't, like, own land, man."
"Well, I can. But that's because I'm not some penniless hippy!"
ITT: circlejerking.
Did they move to .ml or hexbear?
Both and more
"[...] well moderated and run."
LOL!
Vegans and transsexuals turning to fascists is one of the things that I'll never understand.
transsexuals
This is exactly why trans people flocked to a community that actually respects them.
What's wrong with the word "transexual"? \gen
Both already had a vegan community and hexbear is vegan by default (carnists need to tag their post if it contains meat, dairy etc.)
Lots of othering happening by commentators promoting to be vegan, is othering a core principle of veganism?
I may be wrong, but I think that veganism is about not exploiting/eating sentient creatures
So the aggressive othering is just something done for fun?
You might feel othered because you are different, but I for one wish all animals feel nothing but acceptance and peace (including you)
Oh bless your heart my sweet summer child.
Are you othering me?
Hexbear's largest and most site-threatening drama was over its vegan comm (and I think the mods of Reddit's vegancirclejerk?). It ended with the site requiring content warnings on all pictures of meat.
But you know what? They were right. Vegans are basically right about everything, and the reason me and my fellow omnis get our jimmies so rustled by them is because we fucking know they're right.
The part that bothers me is that the most toxic members of the community tend to be boosted. Although I can agree that vegans are right about most things, I would argue that there's lots of things vegans are wrong about, like arguing that cultivated meat is inviable/immoral/etc. Maybe what bothers you most is that you view your own lifestyle as immoral, but not everyone agrees with you, and you shouldn't presume to speak for everyone.
Speaking from experience, I really resented all the "toxic vegans" I experienced while I was becoming vegan, but looking back I'm quite thankful for them. The reason they seemed so toxic was because they kept highlighting my own moral inconsistencies. This raised cognitive dissonance which felt like a personal attack. It's an unpleasant experience.
Of course there were also a lot of "good vegans" I'm thankful of as well who would patiently answer any of my questions, and this is the approach I try and take myself (although sometimes I don't succeed, I'm sure).
Speak for yourself
I still don't know what tankies are and Im too afraid to ask.
Tankies are a pejorative term for left-wing, often communist, supporters of authoritarian regimes they see as anti-imperialist or socialis, it now broadly includes defenders of governments like China or North Korea. Critics argue tankies overlook human rights abuses, prioritizing geopolitical stability over true socialist values.
You guys 🥹
Look the beans were great, but our own bender-hookers-and-blow meme. You shouldn’t have ☺️❤️❤️❤️
I think we've had enough of the vegan cat food argument on Lemmy.world at this point.
I'm actually rather thankful for this entire drama, or rather my cats are.
I was 'this' close to forgetting some ham for their once in a while treat. Thanks, /c/vegan!
Isn't it a rule if they stop acting superior they lose their vegan card and superpowers?
what - the only 5 active people in there got tired of getting bullied or something lmao
Stop c/, it's !
As a vegan tankie, I'm more than happy to welcome anyone who is passionate about justice and equality. If you think for yourself rather than just following and upholding arbitrary social norms, you're going to get pushback from the people who believe in those norms. Whether the norms in question are the needless industrialized mass slaughter of animals, or the needless industrialized mass slaughter of the victims of US imperialism. And it's much easier to have meaningful, higher level discussions among people who share certain common values, so you're not having to constantly refute the same shitty low effort talking points over and over.
Please, keep pushing your vegan users our way.
.world is the biggest circlejerk instance of all.
Wish I knew this a little sooner
What's keeping you?
I have been trying to make an account on a fediverse instance for so long and it not working each time I made an account. It finally decided to work recently when I made this account
Yeah I heard, thanks
I mean, they are vegans. Their brains withered long ago.
What if your behaviour towards other humans demonstrates a complete lack of any morality?
Who are you to force everyone else to do what your say? That sounds like slavery. Who are you to discriminate against those who eat meat? That sounds like the discrimination suffered by LGBTQ folks.
Who decided that you were morally superior and that anything you do is justified in the name of your moral purity?
Its not really the eating meat part thats the bad bit, its that you have to murder an animal to get the meat. Notice there is no problem with lab meat or plant based meat.
I would hope everyone would aspire to exceed the standard of "does not murder things".
And yes I would argue that someone's morals that allows them to murder anything, is almost always worse than someone's morals that does not allow murdering.
Its not really the eating meat part thats the bad bit, its that you have to murder an animal to get the meat. Notice there is no problem with lab meat or plant based meat.
The word you're looking for is, "kill". "Murder" is the killing of one human being by another. Using the word, "murder" ro refer to the killing of an animal is a bad faith attempt to use inappropriate inflammatory language to push your agenda.
I would hope everyone would aspire to exceed the standard of “does not murder things”.
Again, it's not murder. It's killing, but it's not murder. If you want to be taken seriously use the correct word.
And yes I would argue that someone’s morals that allows them to murder anything, is almost always worse than someone’s morals that does not allow murdering.
You're really fixated on murder but it's the wrong word. It's killing. You will plants when you eat them. You kill bacteria when you wash. Things die. It's part of the cycle of life. Some things die and are consumed by other things.
Lmao, this is unhinged.
I see the vegan brigade has arrived to try to silence me with impotent Lemmy downvotes. Welcome, everyone!
I am enjoying watching vegans battle everyone. Most people are not prepared for a conversation on veganism. Vegans have been refining these arguments for a decade now and can present clear sharp moral stances with a counter to everything you have to say. They also have the easier side to argue.
Im not a vegan but I'm not talking shit to a vegan for fear of getting dragged into a veganism debate.
Vegans have been refining these arguments for a decade now and can present clear sharp moral stances with a counter to everything you have to say.
this doesn't make them right, and in fact often leads them to use easily debunked but rhetorically impressive arguments. that's called sophistry.
I disagree. The arguments vegans use are far more morally consistent and thought out than non vegans. Non vegans don't reason themselves into the position and often don't have a good justification for why they're not vegan. When they are pushed they fall apart instantly.
Non vegans don’t reason themselves into the position
most of the time, maybe. but ex-vegans certainly do, among others.
The arguments vegans use are far more morally consistent and thought out than non vegans.
it's true that vegans often think far more about the moral arguments around veganism. i, however, find the arguments to be unconvincing, and often sophistic.
The rhetorically impressive and easily debunked argument:
A) Slavery of sentient beings is wrong
B) Animals are sentient
∴ Enslaving animals is wrong
i used a plural. it's not just one argument. you're not being very honest about the breadth of the arguments made.
animal agriculture isn't slavery. i don't believe even vegans believe this syllogism rings true. if they did, we'd have a lot more harriet tubmans and a lot fewer tash petersons.
Most people are not prepared for interested in a conversation on veganism.
Vegans have been refining these arguments preaching at people who didn't ask for a decade now
and can present clear sharp moral stances with a counter to everything you as a gleefully evil animal abuser no matter what you have to say.
They also have the easier side to argue.
That part is arguably true. Which is all the more reason for evangelical vegans NOT to have to behave like they're missionaries educating savages every time they manage to trick a non-vegan into engaging with them.
Dietary choices, religions, and dietary choices treated as if they were a religion are like penises: it's fine that you have them and it's super that you enjoy them, but you are not allowed to try to force them on me without my consent.
I follow a plant based diet and agree with just about everything you wrote. I find that hardcore vegans can act like religious zealots yelling at little nine year old girls on the street for wearing a rainbow colored t-shirt.
Your freedom ends, where the freedom of others begins. Why would that not include animals?
Why would that not include animals?
three separate reasons.
they aren't people. the don't participate in our society. tehy don't respect the freedoms of others.
Yeah. I do agree with vegans in that humans should transition to a diet that's more sustainable and removes the animal suffering from the equation - and I do put in some effort to reduce my use of animal based products but: god damnit some people of that community are some seriously insufferable people to converse with
Exactly. There are ethical, environmental and health reasons to decrease humanity’s meat consumption. But screaming slurs with religous zealousy burning in your eyes will not win over the majority of the population. If you push people, they push back. Especially on morals, which is the least efficient argument to have a plant based diet - yet it’s the one some vegans like to push the most, as it makes them feel better about themselves.
I know exactly what vegans know, about eg. dairy industry and the rape of cows. Seen many sickening documentaries, and I believe that in a 100 years we will look back on exploiting/killing animals for dairy/meat as we do now on slavery.
Still, I eat meat.
Much less meat than I did years ago, but I have no intention to fully stop, as the alternatives are not yet practical, affordable, or tasty enough for me. If a lot of people decreased their meat consumption, our planet would be much better - how about we take that first step together, instead of insulting each other?
I am enjoying watching vegans battle everyone. Most people are not prepared for a conversation on veganism.
I think it is good that they prefer to not have to argue about the validity of their choices, so stay in their own communities. going to c/vegan and being a shit head should be instance-wide bannable (even if it's temporary). but when they are in other communities they should be respectful of others choices, not sandbag them with sophistry.
going to c/vegan and being a shit head should be instance-wide bannable (even if it's temporary).
Are we singling out c/vegan as snowflakes, or are we planning on making being a shithead in communities a banable offence?
going into a community and being a shithead should be a temporary instance-wide ban, yea. don't go into c/DBZ and say "funimation sucks. dbz sucks. dragonball sucks. you are a bunch of dumb babies".
No one hates vegans. Almost everyone hates vegan extremists. No one cares what you eat. You want to eat brown slop and claim its the best thing ever fill your boots. You want a vegan pet, get a rabbit. Just don't try to shame everyone else into doing what you want and don't feed a carnivore a vegan diet and no one will say anything.
Even flat-earthers have refined their arguments over the years, which doesn't make them any less stupid. I have zero moral problems with my meat consumption and I'll debate it with anyone.
Flat earth is not at all comparable to Veganism. Vegans don't need to make up anything to justify their side. They simply care for animals and therefore they don't eat them.
I'm not vegan so I'm not taking you up on that debate.
They also have the easier side to argue.
no, they don't
Ok what's the moral justification for eating meat?
i don't need one. there is no reason for me to believe it's immoral. it's probably amoral.
Do you think that animals have consciousness? Do they feel pain, fear? Is it moral for you to inflict pain and fear on a conscious being? What about 1,000,000 of those beings? Would you butcher a toddler for meat? What about an animal with similar (or more) depth of emotion and cognition than that? Is it okay because they are other species? What about the deforestation caused by animal agriculture? What about the impact on climate change? I think there are many valid moral arguments that you are outright dismissing with a mere hand wave. I hope you give it some more thought
if you have an argument that it is immoral, make it. i don't care for your interrogative style.
I like to give people questions to ponder and explore. I think my arguments are very clear from the questions I have raised. Suffering of conscious beings is a negative thing. Particularly the egregious conditions in which we raise our "meat". This isn't even considering the horrible conditions that humans suffer working in and around the meat industry.
I like to give people questions to ponder and explore.
if you don't wan to construct an argument that's fine, but the socratic method isn't terribly convincing for me and many others.
You can't appreciate a philosophical argument on a philosophical issue? I suppose that can be valid. It seems to me you don't want to consider the ideas I have raised in good faith
i'm willing to consider a fully formed argument. i'm not willing to be pestered by an endless interrogation.
Suffering of conscious beings is a negative thing.
can you support this claim?
There's obviously no way to prove this sort of statement, however every conscious being I've asked has told me they don't like suffering. Additionally, almost all conscious beings specifically go out of their way to avoid suffering. I personally find this evidence sufficiently convincing.
but pain in and of itself isn't bad. it can be justified or unjustified.
We're not simply talking about pain, though. I like the painful sensation from hot peppers, for example, but I wouldn't ever wish to subject myself to the systematic violence and awful conditions that farmed animals face.
and I wouldn't wish for you to be treated like an animal, either.
Can you supply a convincing argument for suffering? We are fully capable of living with much, much less meat production. Why should we continue to inflict pain on things which can experience it? It seems manifest to me
Can you supply a convincing argument for suffering?
i'm not saying it's a moral good. i'm saying it's amoral. as in it is neither good or bad in itself.
We have agency over our actions and the ability to reduce the negative impacts we have on the world. We are unique in this ability, and we should exercise it
it's not clear that animal suffering is a negative.
Is it moral for you to inflict pain and fear on a conscious being?
i suppose that depends on circumstances.
What about the deforestation caused by animal agriculture?
that's bad. buying beans doesn't fix it though.
This is a strawman. No one is arguing buying beans fixes deforestation. However, if less meat is produced (ie less animals are raised for slaughter), then less deforestation will come as a result of the meat industry. If legume farming was destroying the rainforest, I'd have a problem with that too
If legume farming was destroying the rainforest,
turns out, a lot of the the deforested amazon is being used to grow soy.
This was the case, and is certainly problematic. Take it a step further -- who or what is consuming that soy? Animal agriculture, by and large. Therefore this is an argument for veganism, or at least reducing consumption.
the vast majority of the world's soy (about 85%) is pressed for oil in an oil press for human use. the byproduct of the press is called soy meal or soy cake, and would be a waste product if we didn't find a use for it. currently, almost all of it goes to feed livestock, (about 70% of the entire crop-weight).
soybeans are used by people, and we feed the trash to livestock.
you are outright dismissing with a mere hand wave.
i am not. i have been fighting with vegans, primarily on issues of the environment, for i think 8 or 9 years now. i have heard about every argument (though i'm always excited to find a new one!), and i have not been convinced by any of them that i have a duty to be vegan.
I think it is funny to make this an ethics discussion when there is plenty of evidence that bacon and sausage cause digestive tract cancers. Meat is also pretty expensive unless heavily subsidized.
I think the main focus should be on educating people that a healthy diet contains a very small amount of meat even though the meat industry has managed to make people think it should be in every meal.
I like and admire vegans.
I probably should be vegan because I am lucky enough to have the economic privilege to support that kind of lifestyle.
But, as with many other communities centered around lifestyle topics, I would never want to participate in a vegan community. Lifestyle communities always become insular and echo-chambery, so you become a pariah if you don't properly adhere to 100% of the community consensus behaviors.
Not just vegans, but you see it happen with fitness communities, diy/home decor, a lot of hobbies, etc.
I'm just keeping an eye out for good recipes.
Let me know if you find any favorites, I am down for anything easy and quick if they're out there (as long as it's not more rice and beans).
You don't pocket mulch?!
I’m a level 5
Just don't interact with communities you dislike. It's a pretty bad excuse to blame other people for your decisions.
I wonder why they would be mean...
Good job! This is the comment that made them turn vegan! Mission accomplished!
That's not the goal. They attack people because that makes them feel better. Animals? Who cares. Definitely not them.
I'm a cow and this made me feel better about my fate
yes. it is the vegans who really hate animals!
What I said is that you don't help animals with your hysteria. So I can conclude vegans struggle with logic. At least in your case.
brutal take down. nice
it definitely seems so sometimes
and never the people who fund an industrial killing machine for food we don't actually need and will kill us both individually and collectively.
I was going to stop torturing animals, but some mean vegan said some words that hurt my feelings.
So now I'm going to eat two burgers!
chortle!
I think I will actually do this now just to prove you wrong
legendary!
If your belief lives or dies because of some internet comment it won't last anyway.
Edit: as in, what sustains it is the actual moral implications of a non-vegan lifestyle. I was convinced to go vegan by internet comments like this.
See here’s what’s really really funny, people over and over again say “man if the vegan people who were trying to convince me could just not be gigantic assholes about it then maybe it would be easier to join their community”
And then you come along and are a gigantic asshole about it and prove the entire point.
Super solid representation, 5/7, perfection.
Having a reasonable discussion with these people is like trying to play a game of chess with a pigeon. They'll topple all the pieces, shit on the board and claim victory.
Gonna copy large chunks of my last comment because no ones there to stop me.
This isn't a debate like how should we reduce plastic accumulation or the carcinogenic properties of red meat. Not supporting slavery and murder should be the norm, not something that needs to be argued for at length. Being vegan is not doing something good, but not being vegan is doing something evil. This is our position. If someone can't accept that what their doing is evil but needs to be asked nicely not to kill the screaming orphan who never got to meet his mom because we wanted to steal her milk then they won't accept that it is an actual real evil that is taking place. It will remain a theoretical. But there really is a room where these orphans are brought to be murdered. A person murdering them. And a mother who screamed bitterly over losing their newborn. It is a real evil and being polite about it masks the horror taking place not to mention is completely insincere since we aren't interested in debating or in weighing pros and cons. It's a horrific injustice and we will talk about it as such. There is an evil inherent to not being vegan. Fuck the non-vegans.
this is pretty much just appeal to emotion.
Here is another one: That meat on your plate comes from an animal that could feel. It had a whole life full of feelings and dreams. It might've liked some food but disliked other, it probably had friends, it had a mom and a dad, it was loved. Then they killed it, shipped it, you cooked it and ate it.
very good. have you considered creative writing as a career?
thing is, it's a philosophy of empathy and compassion. you don't really join a.commmunity. there are no V cards I'm afraid.
This discussion is literally about the vegan community here on Lemmy
I thought it was more about abuse.
If you need people to be nice to you to convince you, you care more about appearances than the argument. If people being rude stops you from acting on something you actually believe in you won't last a month as a vegan.
Going vegan means changing your habits, giving up a lot of your treats with nothing in return. You will be the weird one at christmas that needs "special" catering, people have to choose restaurants based on your habits and you will be the butt of a lot of jokes simply because you care about animals not being enslaved. If you need people to be nice to you, and applaud you and make you feel all warm and fuzzy to keep that going you won't last.
The first lesson every vegan needs to learn is: there are no rewards and no one will compliment you. You are doing this out of your own conviction and not for anyone else.
This is precisely the circlejerking mentioned in the meme. Whether true or not, the community presents itself as unwelcoming and self-aggrandizing. These are not traits that easily convince people to listen to the cause.
There's nothing to listen to, either you believe animal ag is horrendous and unethical and act on it or you don't. That's it. No pretty pleases are going to convince someone they have to give up their beloved steak and cheese for nothing in return.
Then why are you trying so hard to explain yourself?
Right, we get it, but if you tried attracting people to veganism with amazing recipes, and annecdotes of how much healthier you feel, people might come have a conversation and try making some vegan food. Instead these communities drive anyone non-vegan right out the door.
What's the expression? Honey will catch more flies?
Reformism doesn't work. People that are vegan because it's "actually really good food" or looking for applause for "saving the planet" stop being vegan once it becomes too inconvenient. Because their mindset is that they are doing something good and you can stop doing good things or balance them out with other good deeds and there is an inherent expectation of a reward for being good.
Not supporting slavery and murder however should be the norm, not something that feels like a burden. Being vegan is not doing something good, but not being vegan is doing something evil. This is our position. If someone can't accept that what their doing is evil but needs to be asked nicely not to kill the screaming orphan who never got to meet his mom because we wanted to steal her milk then they won't accept that it is an actual real evil that is taking place. It will remain a theoretical. But there really is a room where these orphans are brought to be murdered. A person murdering them. And a mother who screamed bitterly over losing their child. It is a real evil and being polite about it masks the horror taking place not to mention is completely insincere since we aren't interested in debating or in weighing pros and cons. This isn't a debate like how should we reduce plastic accumulation or the carcinogenic properties of red meat. There is an evil inherent to not being vegan. Fuck the non-vegans.
it is. most people oppose slavery and murder.
Animal agriculture isn't slavery. I can tell your exact skin tone by the fact you had the gall to make that comparison cx
Stealing labor while keeping the laborers alive at the barest minimum possible and trading them as property is slavery.
Well this has been great, thanks for being the point.
good talk nice representation, really convinced me to be nicer to corpsemunchers going forward.
You're a breatharian? No corpse munching from you.
Are you pure enough that you feed the bacteria in your body without suffering?
while i think you are actually starting to violate community rules here, i just wanna say i think your conduct up to this point has been fine.
You must be exhausting to be around. sheesh
this should be on a billboard.
If belligerent internet comments actually convinced you to change your diet in such an inconvenient manner for no reward but moral superiority, you are not like the people you're trying to convince. Abusers and cults love bomb because its more effective on a random sample of people
If one believes that the mother losing her newborn cries about it for days and that this is happening on an industrial scale that person will be very indignant about such a horrific injustice. That's what convinced me, this is a real injustice and not being angry about it would be insincere
Convincing people to be ethical past the point of inconvenience requires insincerity, yes. The average person is a horrible human being
@Stovetop did not say nor implied that he/she is not vegan, because of the community.
Seems pretty clear to me.
You can take part in something without taking part in the community about that thing, though. I play guitar a lot, but I don't frequent any guitar-based communities
I'm fully aware, but "I'm not going vegan because they're so annoying" is a pretty common excuse.
It is a common excuse. And yet you're still being really annoying.
Take the L dude.
Not only is that clearly not the reason in this case, of what you say is true (and I believe it considering your behavior) that's a pretty damning indictment about your collective personalities.
Youre blaming OTHERS for leaving your cause because YOU'RE impossible to put up with. Pathetic. The literal definition of that meme where the dude puts the stick into his bike spokes and then cries about it.
If you hate non-vegans so much then stop talking to them. Simple as.
Im saying if someone stops being vegan because of what people say they dont actually hold the moral conviction that torture, rape and murder of any animal is wrong. I'm not crying about others leavinge "the cause" Im angry at the smugness and how readily people will accept any excuse in order to keep the literal orphan crushing machine going.
I gave being vegan a go but stopped because I couldn't keep up with it.
Working 60-hour weeks makes it hard to meal prep, so I order out a lot, and there aren't many vegan friendly dining options in my area.
I ended up skipping a lot of family gatherings because Cantonese food isn't all that vegan friendly. The one thing I never wanted to be was "that guy" who needed a special menu when invited to social events, so I thought it was easier to just withdraw. Being very lactose intolerant as a kid did not help in that regard when friends would want to go out for ice cream or eat birthday cake and I'd always feel like "that guy".
At a particularly low point for me, when I was eating the same garden salad for dinner for 2 weeks straight, I ended up having a bit of a breakdown. My therapist said that it is admirable to be vegan, but my behavior at the time was verging on having a martyr complex, and that I should stop punishing myself to make a point.
I'm currently a pescatarian, which is the only concession I could make at present to let myself eat my family's home-cooked meals that are usually made with a fish sauce of some sort. I'd like to try going vegan again at some point when I'm in a better mental space, but it's something that some of us have to find our way into gradually.
I don't know you and if you're being sincere about your harm reduction then that's great. There is no ethical consumption under capitalism, the clothes I wear I made from human slavery, the produce from the exploitation of migrant workers. But people want to be blind to this so they can enjoy their treats in peace while there is a world of suffering around us, that's what gets me so riled up. The wilful ignorance.
Yeah that isn't what they said though
Then you need to go back to school for reading comprehension, because being a vegan and participating in a community about veganism are not the same thing, not even remotely close.
and yet that seems to be the stated reason...
Only because you're inferring a lot from a couple comments. You don't know why they aren't vegan (which could be for any number of reasons), the only thing you know, and are basing your entire assumptions on, is that they don't want to hang out in spaces full of insufferable vegans.
Only if you have poor reading comprehension.
Isn't this something that the fediverse was explicitly designed to support?
We're making fun of them for making use of one of the foundational features of the platform?
If they don't like it there, they can move again. And again. Or host their own instance.
Idk what this creepy vicarious butthurt is about, or why it has become so popular.
Circle jerking against vegans is a pasttime of the Internet denizens
Yeah, but it's a pretty pathetic passtime. At least find a good reason, rather than doing literally the thing you want them to do.
Like, insulting them for leaving is just as bad as them crying that their toxic behavior scares people away. It makes no sense.
I mean this kind of a perfect example of doing the thing where you blow shit up over an extremely pedantic issue which is at best tangentially related to the core ethic, specifically because you view nuance itself as a threat. As far as purity tests dissolving into self parody, I'm not sure there's a better example for veganism.
And I say this as a person who otherwise sympathizes with vegans, but often finds them insufferable. Self awareness is the vaccine to self parody.
Like a family camping trip, classic fun. Pitch a tent, start a fire, roast some vegans and sing kumbaya
Yes, this is a feature of the fediverse, and we're celebrating it here.
When shitty toxic communities create issues for the wider Lemmyverse, instance admins can lay down some ultimatums.
On the toxic community's instance, the instance's admins can demand that the toxic community correct their behavior, or the community and its offending users will get banned.
On other instances, offending communities can be blocked, and if users are regularly misbehaving, instance admins can pressure each other to enforce basic community conduct, or face defederation.
Once a community is given an ultimatum, they can either change their behavior to meet the expectations of the wider Lemmyverse, or they can find an instance that will allow their behavior.
If they choose to migrate to another instance, it will likely be a more extremist instance with poor moderation that has been significantly defederated. They have to exist within that narrow network of fringe instances now, giving them significantly less reach to harass or spread disinfo or whatever got them booted from the last place they called home.
And us users play a central role here. When we see communities doing harm, whether they are endorsing fascism, or pedophilia, or animal abuse, we need to stay "not here you don't" and demand that action be taken.
When those communities end up migrating to some fringe instance full of dipshits, we need to applaud the mods and admins that sent them there, and let them know that their hard work was appreciated.
Federation works. Every fringe community in exile is proof of that. This is all one big community effort, so we can't stay silent about what's happening and expect that it all gets taken care of behind the scenes.
In theory this is how it should work, but in practice the toxic people tend to move to general purpose more laissez-faire places like .world or .ml, which makes de-federating and cutting off 30% of all users a difficult decision for anyone trying to have a community.
The answer is less centralization, but that can't be forced. beehaw.org (for example) made the decision to cut off .world and they are better for it. But they are a large-ish instance in their own right.
So if you dont agree with someone they are an extremist, got it.
You are aware vegan cats exist right? Like its already a thing, and its being studied.
https://news.uoguelph.ca/2021/03/u-of-g-researchers-first-to-study-health-effects-of-vegan-diets-on-cats/
Y'all are so confidently wrong about stuff its crazy, and then y'all pat yourselves in the back for all grouping up and agreeing together.
Just because a lot of people are on one side of a position does not make it the right position, you must be aware there is more to think about right?
I didn't say extremist I said toxic but really anyone who's poorly socialized will go where they're allowed, which in Lemmy terms means general catch-all instances with loose moderation like .world and .ml.
One study estimated 1% of cat owners feed their cat a vegan diet. Why do you think that might be? Are they all extremist animal abusers? Or is it possible you had an assumption that turned out to be wrong and now don't know how to reconcile?
ok, you already lost me
Yes, if you are not feeding your pet a proper diet and are allowing it to suffer, you are an animal abuser.
Yes and no. The theory is that each instance is supposed to be more specialized, kind of like the old BBS that used to be rampant on the internet. If you are moving to an instance just because people disagree with you instead to have more discussion over a specific topic that is not really in line with the purpose of the fediverse.
Sure you can ally yourself with the CCP and that might be totally legal (if they collect any personal data and send it overseas to China then that would be breaking the law but it's unlikely) but that doesn't mean it isn't frowned upon.
That's a stretch, but even assuming it's true, why do you care enough about their community to frown upon it?
I have opinions on a lot of things that don't effect me at all. Palestinian genocide, Uighurs in sweatshops, child labor laws in other states, homeless people being harassed, the socioeconomic shift of Hong Kong losing independent legal rights.
I can respect their freedom to ally themselves to people who wish them direct harm, but I also have the freedom to express my disappointment in them.
It's just disguised metadrama. They joined the instances this instance doesn't like.
And so they're moving, and somehow y'all are... Upset about it???? Make it make sense
I don't see anyone upset about it.
Making fun of them, yes. But not upset.
Making fun of them for doing what you want?
Or do you want them to stay?
How do you come to either of those conclusions?
They're leaving.
Y'all are making fun of them for leaving.
If you want them to leave, as people often told them to do, why are you making fun of them for it? Why do you care where they go?
If you don't want them to leave, why are you being mean to them?
That's not why people make fun of them.
We're making fun of them for getting forced out. We're saying "good riddance". Nobody is sad that the vegans are leaving, that community is so malicious that most people are cheering on their departure.
You're the one that seems upset here. You seem hurt by our celebration. If you want, you can always follow the vegans to the cesspit they're moving to in solidarity.
I mean, leaving .world is a pretty fair response. That community is full of insufferable idiots, but an admin overrode their moderating decisions, and then the admin team made up rules to retroactively justify their decision. That's pretty egregious.
I'm no fan of Lemmy.world but I'm even less of a fan of dead cats.
Yeah, to be clear, you should not feed your cat a Vegan diet. Cats are obligate carnivores. Synthetic Taurine has made vegan catfood somewhat more viable, but cats don't just need Taurine from prey. They need several vitamins, amino acids, and fatty acids from animal protein to survive. Beyond that, their digestive tract isn't very efficient at digesting plant matter, so even if these foods have the nutritional value they need, they might not be absorbing it. Also, a lot of these products seem to be made from grains and other carb heavy products, and cats need a very low carb, high protein diet. If you want to completely divest from the meat industry, you simply shouldn't own a cat.
That being said, Vegan catfood products are on the market, so whether or not they are good for cats, they have been approved by several regulating bodies. You can claim that they're unsafe (I certainly do), but having an admin nuke a comment section for claiming otherwise is a huge overreaction. It would be like going into a vape community and banning accounts that claimed vaping is safer than smoking; it probably isn't, but I don't need admins deciding who gets to have discourse about that.
Finally, I'm also not a fan of dead cats, but if you're dumb enough to take veterinary advice from an internet vegan group, you're probably too dumb to keep a cat alive anyway.
Yeah, that's not how it works. Especially in countries with extreme regulatory capture like the US.
Unless a product has text that says in a very specifically worded way that it's been tested and approved by a relevant regulatory body, it hasn't.
The fact that something hasn't been taken off the market YET does not necessarily mean that it's been approved. Especially not when you're dealing with politically volatile stuff that could lead to lengthy public lawsuits sapping the resources of the already chronically underfunded and understaffed agencies.
If it's vegan food for obligate carnivores, it MIGHT technically be "safe" (as in won't be outright lethal), but for the reasons you yourself mentioned, it's likely to significantly decrease the animal's enjoyment of life at best and more likely to be downright torturous.
Except for the fact that those accounts would be absolutely right and have reams of scientific evidence from the world's foremost experts in related fields to back up their claims. Unlike the people abusing cats in the name of not abusing animals.
It is. It's not even anywhere near the next city over from the neighborhood of close.
Except limiting the spread of dangerous misinformation, such as common myths that are keeping smokers away from one of if not THE most effective smoking cessation tool, is a big part of what admins are FOR.
Yeah..that's not a valid argument either. A lot of vegans avoid getting a cat because they're too overzealous in their veganism to even want carnivorous animals to eat meat.
The Venn diagram of people vegan enough to love carnivores but refuse to give them meat and people who would trust a vegan online echo chamber more than competent veterinarians is a circle within a bigger circle.
Well, various vegan catfoods have been approved for use in not only the U.S. but also the E.U., but your point about regulatory capture is fair. Unfortunately, it's undercut by your support for vaping, a nicotine product brought to market with an insane lack of oversight. Ironically, most of what you're complaining about with the cat food is exactly what makes vaping so dangerous. We don't have as much research or long-term studies on the effects of vaping to say it's as dangerous as smoking, but we know that they contain propylene glycol and vegetable glycerin, which are toxic to cells, aldehydes, which are associated with lung disease and heart disease, acrolein, which can cause COPD, asthma and lung cancer, as well as various heavy metals. I'm pretty sure that a lot more people will die of vaping than cats will die of veganism. That being said, I don't think people who support vaping should be removed from lemmy for using a product that's probably unsafe, and and it's not the job of admins or moderators to stop people from taking bad health advice from strangers on the internet.
In the UK the NHS is advocating for vaping as a way to stop smoking, and it works. Also, i don't know where you get your information about VG and PG (especially regarding their toxicity), but i am more than sure that your information is outdated/obsolete by now.
A large part of your cells walls are made out of vegetable glycerin. The LD50 for rats is about 12g/kg body weight (mice 8g/kg) when ingested (so about 1kg for a 100kg human), and the seen adverse effects when inhaling were minimal and only visible in hourlong exposures at the highest tested concentration.
Propylene Glycol has an even higher LD50 in rodents (20 GRAMS/kg b.w.) and is in use in every theatre in the world for fog and smoke effects (in HUGE volumes in contrast to vaping - i vape a lot and am somwhere between 5-10ml VG/PG 1:1 per day) for ages now, and there would have been found a correlation between stage workers and lung cancer by now. It's widely used in the agricultural sector as a feed additive in pretty large quantities too.
you get acrolein when the e-cigarette overheats. modern devices should not even really do this anymore. The heavy metals are a hypothesis i heard in the beginning and for which i haven't seen any source in the last 5 years. At least if you aren't overheating your NI80 coils on purpose to a dull red glow. all my homies use SS316 for smooth automatic temperature control :-)
I'm with you regarding the aroma additives (which i assume you meant as source for aldehydes); not many of those have been tested regarding inhalation (except for aromatherapy probably), and they might prove to be detrimental. i also believe that if i had kept my pack or two a day hobby for much longer, it would have had a real chance of killing me. i am also advocating that this stuff should be 18+ - by that age the whole "peer pressure" thing that led to me starting smoking with 14 should be mostly over.
in the end, the most important part is: i choose to use e-cigarettes since it's harm reduction in comparison to smoking (and nothing else worked for me), and i know that it would be healthier not to do it. cats don't have much choice regarding their food, especially when combined with an religiously motivated owner.
I feel like nobody is approaching this from a consent aspect either. If someone offers their cat an array of cat food options and makes an actual honest attempt to determine a long term preference and the cat legitimately prefers the vegan cat food, then that's way less problematic than saying "you will eat this weird food or you will starve."
The forced veganism thing just feels a lot like saying "studies show that a human can technically survive on roaches and rat feces as long as they get a vitamin C supplement."
I just wanted to add: the reason why most carnivores go for the digestive tract first when eating their prey is that they eat the predigested plant matter with the entrails, making those nutrients much more readily available to them.
It's a shame; i'm sure there are vegans feeding their cats this way, and when those animals lose muscle mass quickly, the first thing that gets really damaged by that are their kidneys - and this does normally only get noticed shortly before the cat is going to die. And it's an ugly death. I've had a young cat which had nearly dead kidneys when we got her, and it's pure torture for them - we tried everything we could, but there's not much to be done after they show symptoms. That one "study" that other poster is throwing around with the owner-reported feedback regarding the health of their cats has actual negative worth.
What if we raise them in a factory farm and eat them instead? Don't worry though. We will force feed them a carnivore diet in their tiny cages
Bruh. This is why I don't like folks from vegan communities. So full of misinformation and vitriol regarding farming practices. Dead, malnourished and diseased cattle are worthless to a farmer, so they intentionally don't keep them in conditions like these crazies describe.
That said I am trying to cut down on my meat consumption because meat production is more climate intensive than vegetables, and my diet is not as vegetable-heavy as it should be. But you folks make it so hard to feel good about making positive changes like that
They literally do though? Have you ever seen a chicken farm? Or a mink farm? Or dozens of different examples of factory farming?
A few dead animals don't matter if you can fit in 20x the amount of chickens in the same space
Not a mink farm but I've been to cow, goat, sheep, pig and chicken farms. You know what you get with 20x the herd in the same space? 200x the disease risk and 20x the loss when you have to cull the entire herd because the USDA started investigating why your cattle tested positive for [insert nastiness here]. Sick cattle are a great way to lose the farm that's been in the family for generations. Healthy cattle are how you give your kids the option to choose to continue farming
because they challenge your biases you dont like them. classic
I agree entirely. Let's end the factory farming of cats.
What is your intent when replying like this? Did you intend to have a conversation and a sharing of views? Is it just about mocking the hypocrisy what you assume my views to be?
You replied only with questions without answering theirs, how rude.
If thats true then everyone should probably start leaving .world. If they cant even behave themselves with something as simple as veganism, then you cant trust them to not powertrip with actually controversial political issues.
Maybe, but this seems like a problem that's bigger than a single instance. A few months back someone came with some pretty good receipts showing .ml admins going after people for having some very fair and moderate criticisms of China. Seems like most instances either have power tripping mods or are too small to have much activity.
The issues with dot ml and dot world are hardly comparable. I've had my concerns with some of the world admin actions (flip-flopping, lack of communication) but I do believe they are trying in good faith. I'm still happy to be registered and to make my communities elsewhere but for now I don't see them as being nearly as egregious as ml.
I mean they "preemptively defederated hexbear as a last resort" for fear they might discuss politics, so that ship has sailed.
Shush tankie.
I stand with the admins on this. Zero sympathy for animal abusers.
Okay, .world account...
And yes, I'm on .world, but very little of my identity is tired up in my lemmy instance, and I'm certainly not going to bat for the .world admins when they do something crazy.
Just please make an alt account if you intend on cresting any communities.
I see a lot more vegan hate than vegans.
No one hates vegans. Almost everyone hates vegan extremists.
No one hates vegans, but everyone loves to post vegan hate or idiotic "bacon" posts.
Of all the delicious meats to be obsessed about, redditbros went and picked one of the least appealing ones and decided to make it their entire personality 💀
For real. I've been vegetarian for a few years now and of all the things I kind of miss, not once has bacon been even a slight craving. A good kebab on the other hand...
The vast majority of people love bacon and bacon memes and jokes are part of the mainstream culture. Do you accommodate non-vegans? Why do you expect them to accommodate you?
That's because they don't consider non-veganism a morally acceptable option.
As a thought experiment, pick any action that you would personally find morally repugnant and ask yourself if you should accommodate people who do that action.
Precisely. They make the same mistake that all extremists make. They believe that they are morally superior which justifies anything they say or do to anyone they see as inferior. The problem is that the rest of the world does not agree with them so they are reviled for their antisocial behaviour then constantly whine about how the people they harangue treat them badly.
Just because the rest of the world doesn't agree with them doesn't mean they're wrong, though. Societal norms progress with splinter groups that are willing to put their convictions above group conformity. The process is always unpleasant.
Yup, that's exactly the mistake that extremists make. There is a great quote from a judgement out of a court in the UK. Let me find it...
“But the plain fact is that each of you has some time ago crossed the line from concerned campaigner to fanatic. You have appointed yourselves as the sole arbiters of what should be done about climate change, bound neither by the principles of democracy nor the rule of law.
“And your fanaticism makes you entirely heedless of the rights of your fellow citizens. You have taken it upon yourselves to decide that your fellow citizens must suffer disruption and harm, and how much disruption and harm they must suffer, simply so that you may parade your views.”
This really sums it up. Sometimes fanatics are right. Often, they are wrong. Their ability to self-absolve their abhorent antisocial behavior is why so many people so violently hate them and it's the reason that many vegans feel like they are being painted with the same brush. They've appointed themselves holy crusaders who will bully, harass, and intimidate anyone who doesn't agree with them.
Yet without the radicals that are willing to rock the boat, our society would be morally stagnant and unable to progress. We're literally having the conservative/progressive debate.
I assume the case you're referring to is the recent Just Stop Oil case? I personally see the judge's decision as incredibly short sighted. He's put short term convenience above averting global catastrophe for all life on earth. In my view, it is he who has caused his fellow citizens harm, and on a much wider scale.
Self-absolution. I understand it but it is a logical failure.
Should anti-LGBTQ fanatics who are absolutely convinced that they are morally superior be able to discriminate against LQBTQ people?
Should anti-abotionists who are absolutely convinced that they are morally superior be able to harass and threaten women making the most difficult decision of their life? Should they be allowed to fire bomb clinics? Shoot abortion doctors and nurses?
Should white spremacists who are absolutely convinced of their racial superiority be allowed to refuse service to people of color? Burn crosses on lawns? Hang people of color from trees by the neck?
Where does the vegan fanatics self-absolution end? Fire bombing restaurant? Pipe bombs wrapped in nails in crowded restaurants that serve meat?
The ability to self-absolve is very VERY dangerous. It permits fanatics to justify any ammoral horror in the name of their mistaken moral purity.
Except you can say this literal exact thing about the opposites too
Should black people have just stayed slaves and not have rights even though "they are absolutely convinced they should have"? Should us queer people never fight back and fight for acceptance? Etc etc.
The actual difference is the arguments for the specific position. What sound arguments are there for racism and slavery? What sound arguments are there for queer-phobia? What sound arguments are there for not following a vegan diet beyond "it tastes good"?
Usually it ends at the terrifying act of talking with people, because harming them would be explicitly against their own philosophy.
But yeah, it's totally like a jihad or something.
That's self-serving nonsense. Vegan extremists have been harassing and intimidating restaurateurs and their patrons attempting to drive them out of business or to comply with their demands to stop serving meat. That is not, "the terrifying act of talking".
What if you're mistaken about being morally superior? What if your actions toward other humans demonstrate a complete lack of any morality?
I wish that was true (and I'm not even vegan) but there are many outspoken anti-vegans. But then again they're the types who will always find an out group to denigrate (in before someone oh-so-cleverly points out I'm doing the same to them).
I think that you will find that these anti-vegans are reacting to the behaviour of the extremist.
I don't disagree, but then they'll apply their hatred to the whole (or at least majority) of the group
That, unfortunately, is how it goes. If the only vegans that most people deal with are the obnoxious assholes then they assume that every vegan is an obnoxious asshole.
The community of non-vegans is a lot bigger than that of the vegans. So vegans do something that gets a reaction, you are much more likely to hear that reaction than the original thing.
They're easy to hate - They're weird, eat funny foods, care about things nobody else does (who cares about chickens) and my god is there a subset of them that are the most truly obnoxious human beings (a statement that is, conveniently, true of every single group of humans). They're basically furries for the non-internet crowd. Nobody ever interacts with them to know it, so they get defined by the strawmen people create of them.
Edit: It's possible my explanation of why vegans are disliked has touched a nerve. To clarify; I don't think this, hell I eat vegan meals most of the time, but these are the qualities given to the Strawman Vegan that everyone onlines seems to love to hate. (I also quite like furries.)
The cause has been tainted by the extremists, to the point where even some vegans are being pushed away from the movement.
Of course, the ones that are on a niche media platform, in a community dedicated to veganism, are likely to be the nutter ones.
Yikes. You know, vegans are targeted by the extremely wealthy & powerful meat & dairy industries who spend untold fortunes making the vegan lifestyle look as unappealing and "crazy" as possible?
I mean, I'm sure you're galaxy brain is impervious to propaganda and everything, I'm just saying, you're painting with an awfully broad brush.
That's getting a bit tinfoil hat, don't you think?
Or its tracing the money and influence of different lobbies in America. Just look at the original gerrymandered food pyramid made to accommodate the dairy industry. Or lawsuits against plant based alternatives.
I think the cause has been tainted by the rampant propagandizing and demonization across all forms of media that the movement has been subjected to. You're doing it now, even - what the hell even is an "extremist vegan"?
Extreme vegans are the people who stand outside restaurants, grocery stores, butcher shops, etc. and yell at people just trying to go about their lives calling them carnists, corpose munchers, blood mouths, animal torturers, and talk about murdering animals (murder is the killing of one human by another) or eating cadavers (a cadaver is a dead human body.) They don't simply go about their lives living their best vegan life but harass and harangue people. They do the same thing online.
You should read the post the vegan@lemmy.world mods made in response to the admin actions. Phrases like "carnist Lemmy admin", as if that's the reason they didn't like the idea of starving a cat.
There was also a comment saying Vegan should be a protected belief, like other religions.
It's not a conspiracy by the meat and dairy industry.
It's difficult to take people like this seriously.
Most people. Anyone who isn't a psychopath cares to some extent about animals, vegan or non-vegan
I hate chickens. They're loud, obnoxious, and they kill and eat each other. That doesn't mean that I'm going to abuse them. I take good care of my chickens despite the fact that they're assholes.
They're just like us! 😌
Pretty much.
I think it's funny how quickly the outspoken anti-vegan types deliver the "I actually think it's ok to torture animals" completely unprompted
Can you find me a sample of someone saying, "I actually thing it's ok to torture animals"? I'd be intersted to see that if it's actually happening. Or, are you creating a straw man?
Literally that post's grandparent, which is the subject of that post?
Can you link me to the place where it says these words?
"I actually think it's ok to torture animals"
Your honor, my client never explicitly said the words "I'm requesting a bribe".
This is the reason that people hate vegan extremists.
I had a pet chicken in elementary school. She was a sweetheart.
My biggest gripe with vegan communities is that a lot of them have an "All or Nothing" mentality, going fully vegan is a luxury not everyone can afford, and yet I find mainly malice when trying to talk about reducing ones own reliance on meat and other animal products in online communities.
And veganism, if taken to the "no suffering of sentient beings" full extreme, forbids buying things (not just food) produced by slavery. And those things, especially electronics and clothes, are not financially viable for most to be bought without any slavery involved in any step whatsoever.
Unsolicited advice: Your goal is to do no more or less than the best you can. If you're doing that, no one got shit on you.
Which is precisely why they will get along with the tankies so well. Both treat the very idea of nuance as an existential threat to the point where everything much be driven by the most extreme degree of moral panic or nothing at all.
Vegan diets are popular in third world countries because they're considerably cheaper. Meat is cheap in western countries because it's very often subsidized by governments. Meat consumption by wealth proves eating animals is a luxury.
Also veganism mantras always have "as far as is practicable". I bought a Samsung phone because Fairphones don't work here in Australia.
vegan diets in third world countries are cheaper because they generally just end up being 90% filler starches and still have woefully bad nutrition outside of being calories
Save animals and switch to orphan-meat
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
I had a look at the community yesterday, every post bar one was about vegan cat food for the last week. They're not taking this well at all.
I just had a look myself after your comment and cannot confirm your claim at all. There are, understandably, quite a few posts about this debacle and the future of their sub but more than half is stuff related to veganism not related to cats.
Yeah I respect vegans, and applaud them for their life choices. I'm not in a position to, or willing at this point to become a vegan, but I looked at their community... Mostly insults when referring to any meat eater. Yeah, I respect them a fair bit less now.
Lemmy dot world definitely doesn't circlejerk, no siree.
I mean, they're the biggest instance, of course there is going to be circle jerking, but it also has more dissenting voices to push back against people who are just plain wrong.
Lol
casual drive-by meme;
"oh no, the vegans are leaving!" said no-one ever
"We taught a lion to eat Tofu"
I mean what a fucking mountain to die on. Bravo to all involved this has been quite entertaining.
I suspect the mountain to die was the admin actions removing moderators. Vegan cat food is pretty rarely discussed amongst actual vegans. It just happens to appear to be a "wedge issue" that kind of looks like a gotcha if you squint, thus it's beloved by anti-vegan trolls.
It's the trans women in sports of veganism, it's such a small part of the issue and no one in the group will usually bring it up. But people who are against them will use it to discredit and divide them even though they don't really care about the underlying issues they claim to be for: women's sports, cat nutrition and the way larger problems with them.
Lol as a trans woman and a far left sympathizer get fucked
"You can't, like, own land, man."
"Well, I can. But that's because I'm not some penniless hippy!"
ITT: circlejerking.
Did they move to .ml or hexbear?
Both and more
LOL!
Vegans and transsexuals turning to fascists is one of the things that I'll never understand.
This is exactly why trans people flocked to a community that actually respects them.
What's wrong with the word "transexual"? \gen
Both already had a vegan community and hexbear is vegan by default (carnists need to tag their post if it contains meat, dairy etc.)
Lots of othering happening by commentators promoting to be vegan, is othering a core principle of veganism?
I may be wrong, but I think that veganism is about not exploiting/eating sentient creatures
So the aggressive othering is just something done for fun?
You might feel othered because you are different, but I for one wish all animals feel nothing but acceptance and peace (including you)
Oh bless your heart my sweet summer child.
Are you othering me?
Hexbear's largest and most site-threatening drama was over its vegan comm (and I think the mods of Reddit's vegancirclejerk?). It ended with the site requiring content warnings on all pictures of meat.
But you know what? They were right. Vegans are basically right about everything, and the reason me and my fellow omnis get our jimmies so rustled by them is because we fucking know they're right.
The part that bothers me is that the most toxic members of the community tend to be boosted. Although I can agree that vegans are right about most things, I would argue that there's lots of things vegans are wrong about, like arguing that cultivated meat is inviable/immoral/etc. Maybe what bothers you most is that you view your own lifestyle as immoral, but not everyone agrees with you, and you shouldn't presume to speak for everyone.
Speaking from experience, I really resented all the "toxic vegans" I experienced while I was becoming vegan, but looking back I'm quite thankful for them. The reason they seemed so toxic was because they kept highlighting my own moral inconsistencies. This raised cognitive dissonance which felt like a personal attack. It's an unpleasant experience.
Of course there were also a lot of "good vegans" I'm thankful of as well who would patiently answer any of my questions, and this is the approach I try and take myself (although sometimes I don't succeed, I'm sure).
Speak for yourself
I still don't know what tankies are and Im too afraid to ask.
Tankies are a pejorative term for left-wing, often communist, supporters of authoritarian regimes they see as anti-imperialist or socialis, it now broadly includes defenders of governments like China or North Korea. Critics argue tankies overlook human rights abuses, prioritizing geopolitical stability over true socialist values.
You guys 🥹
Look the beans were great, but our own bender-hookers-and-blow meme. You shouldn’t have ☺️❤️❤️❤️
I think we've had enough of the vegan cat food argument on Lemmy.world at this point.
I'm actually rather thankful for this entire drama, or rather my cats are.
I was 'this' close to forgetting some ham for their once in a while treat. Thanks, /c/vegan!
Isn't it a rule if they stop acting superior they lose their vegan card and superpowers?
what - the only 5 active people in there got tired of getting bullied or something lmao
Stop c/, it's !
As a vegan tankie, I'm more than happy to welcome anyone who is passionate about justice and equality. If you think for yourself rather than just following and upholding arbitrary social norms, you're going to get pushback from the people who believe in those norms. Whether the norms in question are the needless industrialized mass slaughter of animals, or the needless industrialized mass slaughter of the victims of US imperialism. And it's much easier to have meaningful, higher level discussions among people who share certain common values, so you're not having to constantly refute the same shitty low effort talking points over and over.
Please, keep pushing your vegan users our way.
.world is the biggest circlejerk instance of all.
Wish I knew this a little sooner
What's keeping you?
I have been trying to make an account on a fediverse instance for so long and it not working each time I made an account. It finally decided to work recently when I made this account
Yeah I heard, thanks
I mean, they are vegans. Their brains withered long ago.
What if your behaviour towards other humans demonstrates a complete lack of any morality?
Who are you to force everyone else to do what your say? That sounds like slavery. Who are you to discriminate against those who eat meat? That sounds like the discrimination suffered by LGBTQ folks.
Who decided that you were morally superior and that anything you do is justified in the name of your moral purity?
Its not really the eating meat part thats the bad bit, its that you have to murder an animal to get the meat. Notice there is no problem with lab meat or plant based meat.
I would hope everyone would aspire to exceed the standard of "does not murder things".
And yes I would argue that someone's morals that allows them to murder anything, is almost always worse than someone's morals that does not allow murdering.
The word you're looking for is, "kill". "Murder" is the killing of one human being by another. Using the word, "murder" ro refer to the killing of an animal is a bad faith attempt to use inappropriate inflammatory language to push your agenda.
Again, it's not murder. It's killing, but it's not murder. If you want to be taken seriously use the correct word.
You're really fixated on murder but it's the wrong word. It's killing. You will plants when you eat them. You kill bacteria when you wash. Things die. It's part of the cycle of life. Some things die and are consumed by other things.
Lmao, this is unhinged.
I see the vegan brigade has arrived to try to silence me with impotent Lemmy downvotes. Welcome, everyone!
I am enjoying watching vegans battle everyone. Most people are not prepared for a conversation on veganism. Vegans have been refining these arguments for a decade now and can present clear sharp moral stances with a counter to everything you have to say. They also have the easier side to argue.
Im not a vegan but I'm not talking shit to a vegan for fear of getting dragged into a veganism debate.
this doesn't make them right, and in fact often leads them to use easily debunked but rhetorically impressive arguments. that's called sophistry.
I disagree. The arguments vegans use are far more morally consistent and thought out than non vegans. Non vegans don't reason themselves into the position and often don't have a good justification for why they're not vegan. When they are pushed they fall apart instantly.
most of the time, maybe. but ex-vegans certainly do, among others.
it's true that vegans often think far more about the moral arguments around veganism. i, however, find the arguments to be unconvincing, and often sophistic.
The rhetorically impressive and easily debunked argument:
A) Slavery of sentient beings is wrong
B) Animals are sentient
∴ Enslaving animals is wrong
i used a plural. it's not just one argument. you're not being very honest about the breadth of the arguments made.
animal agriculture isn't slavery. i don't believe even vegans believe this syllogism rings true. if they did, we'd have a lot more harriet tubmans and a lot fewer tash petersons.
That part is arguably true. Which is all the more reason for evangelical vegans NOT to have to behave like they're missionaries educating savages every time they manage to trick a non-vegan into engaging with them.
Dietary choices, religions, and dietary choices treated as if they were a religion are like penises: it's fine that you have them and it's super that you enjoy them, but you are not allowed to try to force them on me without my consent.
I follow a plant based diet and agree with just about everything you wrote. I find that hardcore vegans can act like religious zealots yelling at little nine year old girls on the street for wearing a rainbow colored t-shirt.
Your freedom ends, where the freedom of others begins. Why would that not include animals?
three separate reasons.
they aren't people. the don't participate in our society. tehy don't respect the freedoms of others.
Yeah. I do agree with vegans in that humans should transition to a diet that's more sustainable and removes the animal suffering from the equation - and I do put in some effort to reduce my use of animal based products but: god damnit some people of that community are some seriously insufferable people to converse with
Exactly. There are ethical, environmental and health reasons to decrease humanity’s meat consumption. But screaming slurs with religous zealousy burning in your eyes will not win over the majority of the population. If you push people, they push back. Especially on morals, which is the least efficient argument to have a plant based diet - yet it’s the one some vegans like to push the most, as it makes them feel better about themselves.
I know exactly what vegans know, about eg. dairy industry and the rape of cows. Seen many sickening documentaries, and I believe that in a 100 years we will look back on exploiting/killing animals for dairy/meat as we do now on slavery.
Still, I eat meat.
Much less meat than I did years ago, but I have no intention to fully stop, as the alternatives are not yet practical, affordable, or tasty enough for me. If a lot of people decreased their meat consumption, our planet would be much better - how about we take that first step together, instead of insulting each other?
I think it is good that they prefer to not have to argue about the validity of their choices, so stay in their own communities. going to c/vegan and being a shit head should be instance-wide bannable (even if it's temporary). but when they are in other communities they should be respectful of others choices, not sandbag them with sophistry.
Are we singling out c/vegan as snowflakes, or are we planning on making being a shithead in communities a banable offence?
going into a community and being a shithead should be a temporary instance-wide ban, yea. don't go into c/DBZ and say "funimation sucks. dbz sucks. dragonball sucks. you are a bunch of dumb babies".
No one hates vegans. Almost everyone hates vegan extremists. No one cares what you eat. You want to eat brown slop and claim its the best thing ever fill your boots. You want a vegan pet, get a rabbit. Just don't try to shame everyone else into doing what you want and don't feed a carnivore a vegan diet and no one will say anything.
Even flat-earthers have refined their arguments over the years, which doesn't make them any less stupid. I have zero moral problems with my meat consumption and I'll debate it with anyone.
Flat earth is not at all comparable to Veganism. Vegans don't need to make up anything to justify their side. They simply care for animals and therefore they don't eat them.
I'm not vegan so I'm not taking you up on that debate.
no, they don't
Ok what's the moral justification for eating meat?
i don't need one. there is no reason for me to believe it's immoral. it's probably amoral.
Do you think that animals have consciousness? Do they feel pain, fear? Is it moral for you to inflict pain and fear on a conscious being? What about 1,000,000 of those beings? Would you butcher a toddler for meat? What about an animal with similar (or more) depth of emotion and cognition than that? Is it okay because they are other species? What about the deforestation caused by animal agriculture? What about the impact on climate change? I think there are many valid moral arguments that you are outright dismissing with a mere hand wave. I hope you give it some more thought
if you have an argument that it is immoral, make it. i don't care for your interrogative style.
I like to give people questions to ponder and explore. I think my arguments are very clear from the questions I have raised. Suffering of conscious beings is a negative thing. Particularly the egregious conditions in which we raise our "meat". This isn't even considering the horrible conditions that humans suffer working in and around the meat industry.
if you don't wan to construct an argument that's fine, but the socratic method isn't terribly convincing for me and many others.
You can't appreciate a philosophical argument on a philosophical issue? I suppose that can be valid. It seems to me you don't want to consider the ideas I have raised in good faith
i'm willing to consider a fully formed argument. i'm not willing to be pestered by an endless interrogation.
can you support this claim?
There's obviously no way to prove this sort of statement, however every conscious being I've asked has told me they don't like suffering. Additionally, almost all conscious beings specifically go out of their way to avoid suffering. I personally find this evidence sufficiently convincing.
but pain in and of itself isn't bad. it can be justified or unjustified.
We're not simply talking about pain, though. I like the painful sensation from hot peppers, for example, but I wouldn't ever wish to subject myself to the systematic violence and awful conditions that farmed animals face.
and I wouldn't wish for you to be treated like an animal, either.
Can you supply a convincing argument for suffering? We are fully capable of living with much, much less meat production. Why should we continue to inflict pain on things which can experience it? It seems manifest to me
i'm not saying it's a moral good. i'm saying it's amoral. as in it is neither good or bad in itself.
We have agency over our actions and the ability to reduce the negative impacts we have on the world. We are unique in this ability, and we should exercise it
it's not clear that animal suffering is a negative.
i suppose that depends on circumstances.
that's bad. buying beans doesn't fix it though.
This is a strawman. No one is arguing buying beans fixes deforestation. However, if less meat is produced (ie less animals are raised for slaughter), then less deforestation will come as a result of the meat industry. If legume farming was destroying the rainforest, I'd have a problem with that too
turns out, a lot of the the deforested amazon is being used to grow soy.
This was the case, and is certainly problematic. Take it a step further -- who or what is consuming that soy? Animal agriculture, by and large. Therefore this is an argument for veganism, or at least reducing consumption.
https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/victories/amazon-rainforest-deforestation-soy-moratorium-success/
the vast majority of the world's soy (about 85%) is pressed for oil in an oil press for human use. the byproduct of the press is called soy meal or soy cake, and would be a waste product if we didn't find a use for it. currently, almost all of it goes to feed livestock, (about 70% of the entire crop-weight).
soybeans are used by people, and we feed the trash to livestock.
Can you supply a source for this please?
https://ourworldindata.org/images/published/Global-soy-production-to-end-use.png
but just being vegan doesn't cause this to happen.
It's simple economics. Less demand, less supply.
that's not causal.
i am not. i have been fighting with vegans, primarily on issues of the environment, for i think 8 or 9 years now. i have heard about every argument (though i'm always excited to find a new one!), and i have not been convinced by any of them that i have a duty to be vegan.
I think it is funny to make this an ethics discussion when there is plenty of evidence that bacon and sausage cause digestive tract cancers. Meat is also pretty expensive unless heavily subsidized.
I think the main focus should be on educating people that a healthy diet contains a very small amount of meat even though the meat industry has managed to make people think it should be in every meal.
Lol they fuck they can, they couldn't even properly present and defend their own sources.
https://lemm.ee/comment/14432604