Immigrants are the blood of the US. This fascist bullshit is the poison.
From the "Great American Melting Pot" to this shit in one generation. WTF
If you think this is new, you haven't paid attention to history.
This is the US. Mutt Nation. What the hell does "pure" or "poisoned" blood mean here?
Look up mud people
This country, possibly your grandfathers or great-grandfathers (and in many cases grandmothes), went to war against Nazis, as did most of the world. There were a few fringe sympathizers, but they weren't representative of "the greatest generation."
This shit is a new Nazi wave, and it's not a continuation of something. It's a flare-up of an old ugly root. All over the world these shits are gaining ground. New media empowers them.
The idea that the world united against the horrible atrocities of the Nazis is post-war propaganda. Your average person didn't know anything about what was going on until photos of the camps made their way home as we pushed into Germany itself. Most countries didn't give a shit about the Nazis until they were on their doorstep. Most people said, "Hitler's only saying that stuff to get elected. Once he's in office, he'll calm down, you'll see." And then they said, "Well, if we leave him alone, then he won't bother us."
Many people across Europe and North America actually agreed with Hitler's views about the Jews before "The Final Solution." Antisemitism was common across Europe and North America, if not the globe. In Mein Kampf, Hitler refers to America as the sisterland across the ocean that shares his values.
The phrase "Make America Great Again" was used by the pro-isolationism political group the America First Committee, who formed in 1940 and dissolved after the attack on Pearl Harbor, who largely opposed support for the UK. And they had over 800,000 members from all different backgrounds (from Democrats and Republicans to communists and anti-communists) with major tones of antisemitism and pro-fascist support amongst its leaders and speakers. They dissolved 4 days after Pearl Harbor and joined the war effort, not to fight the Nazis but to protect the US.
The Nazis were inspired by the treatment of Native Americans when they started their camps, and we had our own camps for Japanese Americans. We hated the Chinese when they came here, and we hated the Irish as well. Most ethnic groups coming to the US settled in communities of their own culture from their homeland. That's why the culture is so varied here, even across a single state. To quote somebody else, "Racism is as American as apple pie, and some people will see hatred of the first as hatred of the second."
I remember the days after 9/11, when attacks on black people doubled, attacks on Jews tripled, and Muslim parents were asking their kids if they wanted to change their name to something more American to avoid being bullied. That racism has always been present. It was just often couched in the lie of being edgy jokes or just that one racist uncle at the family party. The biggest differences today are that they're no longer afraid to say it openly, and the number of young men caught up in the rhetoric of the online fascist pipeline that gives them a target to blame all the problems in their life on. The ironic racist jokes of their teen and childhood years stopped being ironic at some point and became their actual beliefs.
The idea that Nazi sympathisers were a fringe group is an vast oversimplification of history. Yes, America chose to fight against the Nazis, but there were huge racist/eugenist movements at the time that included high-ranking politicians and military personnel. Look up the America First movement for just one example.
I first learned about this from the podcast ULTRA. I kept having to check their sources and do further research, because what they said sounded so wild that I felt I should have already known it. Instead it's just another example of people not wanting to teach their uncomfortable history like the Tulsa race massacre, Indian residential schools in the US and Canada, the Tuskegee syphilis study, etc, etc, etc.
Also, I'd suggest you learn about the history of Nazi Germay. The Nazis weren't this huge supermajority of the German population, they just had people in the right positions, took power by force, and the populace went along with it. It's not hard to see parallels with a lot of events in US history where if things went just a bit different the USA could have become a racist, authoritarian state.
In 2016 they said it couldn't happen here. They laughed at the idea of trump getting elected. They were shocked when he was elected and racism once again reared its ugly head. In Germany they said it couldn't happen here and look what happened. Now we have Trump, the racists have come out of the woodwork, project 2025 was revealed and we're very close to the end of America if we don't do something.
It does not go away with Trump. I wish democrats would address it instead of pointing at Trump like he's an aberration
Fascism is the problem. Trump is a very notable symptom, but many others are also to blame for the fascism issue, including some democrats. I believe this fixation with Trump is due to people wanting simple answers to complex problems.
The fixation is because there is no clear line of succession. If he fails, who steps in? They'll splinter and fragment. They'll still be deplorable, but less effective when not united behind a single authoritarian leader.
Like how democrats splintered and fragmented when Biden stepped down?
They'll reform and continue gaining power in lower-level positions until the next election, like they've been doing since 2020
I cannot emphasize how naieve it is to think this problem will go away if all we do is beat trump, or even if he dies or gets incarcerated.
Democrats aren't authoritarians. It's a bad comparison. Democrats are always fragmented, it's virtually a defining characteristic. Post-Biden unity has been quite unusual.
Like I said, it's incredibly naive to think this problem goes away when Trump does.
If you say so.
The symptom is on the brink of winning everything.
When you have a 42 °C fever, you focus on the fever before worrying about the infection. Dead people don't need antibiotics.
That's funny because we're almost all immigrants, so I guess we're all poison?
Ehh, then again there was that whole native genocide thing.
No, no, no, not us. I'm talking about those bad immigrants. You know who I'm talking about .....
Nuh uh. I was born here. My parents were born here. (/s, of course)
Let's not go back any further than that because it hurts the argument.
For context, I am 50% Italian, 25% French, 12.5% Irish, and 12.5% English. At least going off what my parents had told me. I never did a DNA test or anything.
It's been barely 60 years since racism against Italian- and Irish-American individuals really eased up. All based on xenophobia and an anti-Catholic belief. Before that, they may as well have been Black. Or worse, Japanese.
Tons of people alive today that experienced it first hand. Did all the lead in the paint and gasoline make them forget all about it?
Even still today we have to tiptoe around ideas like renaming Columbus Day. On the one hand, he was a massive piece of shit. On the other hand, it's morphed into the only holiday celebrating Italian-American heritage. I very much agree with the former, but if we are gonna go all-out on St. Patrick's Day, Italians should have a day too.
Maybe we could make a bigger deal out of St. Joseph. I could really go for a zeppole right about now, but that's really all I know of the day. It's a day for a zeppole.
i live in a small town full of old people who incessantly whine about people "moving here and trying to change things" from other parts of the country. while sitting on stolen cherokee land.
among americans there is this weird fucked up notion that we are, and always were, entitled to this land, and no one else is allowed on it. including the people who were living here first. it's been passed down through generations since the first colonists and still remains, even among democrats. so we hate "other," but we especially hate them when they move into town. and god fucking forbid they ever speak anything but 'murican
for context, my town still has a confederate statue because the usual "bUt MuH hIsToReEeEeEeEs"
We are indeed, and...we are indeed.
its the 100% venn overlap of racists. america is still pretty full up on people who hate other people for no reason but race
The real racists are the ones calling people racist just because they hate people for no reason but race.
Racists are not a protected group. Its totally fine and important to hate racists
Obvious sarcasm getting down votes ...
I was seriously considering adding a /s but I was like nah, that's lame it should be obvious.
Poe's Law strikes again. There are people who actually say that and mean it.
I feel that they would at least change the framing instead of directly mirroring the OP. "Hating people for no reason but their race" is pretty clearly the definition of racism. Usually racists reframe their argument as actually being about criminality or at the very least some fear of cultural change.
How?
Says the country that is 99% immigrant blood
Yeah the non immigrant blood is the one they spilled
Remember that a horrifying number of people, especially conservatives, are invaluable of caring about - or even noticing - any problem that doesn't personally impact themselves.
1/3 of Americans are terrible people.
This is why GW Bush and Trump got elected. There is about 30% that will always vote for R.
"We’re also a nation of immigrants, and we must uphold that tradition, which has strengthened our country in so many ways."
and:
"Some in this country argue that the solution is to — is to deport every illegal immigrant and that any proposal short of this amounts to amnesty. I disagree. It is neither wise nor realistic to round up millions of people, many with deep roots in the United States, and send them across the border."
and:
"We must honor the great American tradition of the melting pot, which has made us one nation out of many peoples. The success of our country depends upon helping newcomers assimilate into our society, and embrace our common identity as Americans."
I'm not saying G.W. was good or anything, but god damn that's a big change from what we see now from Republicans.
I got a lot of heat for saying it before, but as a Latino, out of all his shit, racist is not something I ever got from Bush. He did a lot for Africa in terms of foreign aid, more than any president before him. He has positive things to say about immigration like you mentioned, and he grew up around a lot of Latinos, and his brother is married to a Mexican. So I never saw his family as racists.
Fuck how is it possible I'm missing the Bush family?
You never saw GW Bush as racist, but Middle Eastern Americans would disagree because leaders at that time didn’t do enough to combat the wave of Islamophobia which occurred after 9/11. Now it’s just the Latinos turn being the scapegoat. Republicans almost always play the racism card, just the target is different. Americans deserve better.
Edit to point out that when I say “Republicans” in my post, I mean the talking heads. I know individuals and people who may vote Republican may not necessarily feel the same
I know individuals and people who may vote Republican may not necessarily feel the same
But the racism card never becomes a deal-breaker. Republicans are more likely to get in line and go to the polls than those who lean to the left. If you choose to associate with and elect people who broadcast hateful rhetoric, you bear responsibility.
A third of Americans are xenophobic bigots. Got it.
Meanwhile they proudly exclaim their great great great great grand daddy came in on the Mayflower.
They also love to claim that they had a great-grandmother who was "full-blooded Cherokee" (it's almost always Cherokee) and if you check their DNA, nope. All European.
Bet. So why don't all you palefaces go back to England, Ireland, Germany, Spain, France...
So, you mean everyone except the native Americans should leave America? Just trying to understand clearly the implications of what you're suggesting :P
In all seriousness, after all this time I would bet most people couldn't trace a lineage to a single country now anyway.
They probably couldn't. And Europe being what it is, a bunch of them would have lineage going back to a country that no longer exists, i.e. if they were of any of the states that were ultimately absorbed into unified Germany in the 1800's.
It's all arbitrary. But we know damn well Trump and his goons don't mean "white" people when they say "immigrants."
Please no. We already have 20-30% of people voting for fascists in Germany. We dont need more
I heard Russia is accepting immigrants.
I mean, how many people supported slavery and later, Jim Crow.
thesamepicture.jpg
The funny thing, though, is that the people who supported slavery also generally supported immigration. And I don't mean by importing slaves (that too, of course). They wanted immigrants because they wanted America to grow. Sure, they didn't want black immigrants, but that's a whole other thing. When Chinese immigrants started pouring into California during the Gold Rush era, the response wasn't, "immigrants are poisoning the blood of our country!" it was "Hey! Dirt cheap labor! And stay out of the buildings with the posted 'no Chinese' signs or else."
So even those people, awful as they were, wouldn't agree.
When Chinese immigrants started pouring into California during the Gold Rush era, the response wasn’t, “immigrants are poisoning the blood of our country!”
Chinese Exclusion Act says hi.
Okay, fair point. But that wasn't really a "poisoning the blood of our country" thing either. It was a "they tuk'r jerbs" situation.
Oh, no, there was definitely strong fears at the time that foreigners would 'ruin' America, and blood-related arguments were far more in vogue then than now. Even foreigners as white as the Irish and Germans.
It was a 'catholics are evil and all follow the commands of the pope so we can't let them in, they'll sell us all out to the European powers' thing.
Also Irish are all drunks and Italians are all criminals, unlike the wonderful people who populated this country who were the European upper crust of course, and not religious nut jobs and people fleeing debt or other crimes.
Roosevelt warned that even Jewish refugees could become a threat, aiding Nazi Germany in exchange for the lives of loved ones held hostage in Europe. The FBI warned Americans to be on guard. Neither the president nor the FBI were able to provide any specific examples of Jewish refugees committing acts of espionage or sabotage.
Not just fleeing debt or crimes. People tend to be pretty well familiar with the British Empire using Australia as a penal colony, but that didn't really get going until after the American Revolution. Before that they just used the 13 Colonies. Not quite as far to travel, bit cheaper.
We've largely blotted out that particular perception, though, replacing it with pilgrims in funny hats fleeing religious persecution. Which, there were those too, of course, but there was also quite a lot of every other sort of person.
Yea one of the big ironies of history was that Abraham Lincoln was that he wanted to ship all of the newly freed slaves out of the US and back to Africa or South America:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linconia
For peace, he knew how monstrously cruel and evil the south was and that they would never tolerate black people as anything but chattel.
Removing them made sense.
I wish he wasn't so kind and gentle, giving every slave owner to their slaves and walking away would have solved most of Americas problems to this day
As a German, knowing what happened in Nazi Germany and what Hitler’s beliefs and actions were at that time, this “rhetoric” is beyond troubling and disturbing.
People forget very quickly. Just look at what's happening in Germany and Austria and the Netherlands and France and Italy. It's like everyone's ignoring history.
Yes, and people who forget history are destined to repeat it. It’s sad to hear some people in Germany wanting to “get over” our history…
America's entire Capitalist model is based on 3-month cycles of amnesia. It is designed to forget. Business could be run successful, profitable, and non-asshole, but the hunt for the next quarterly positive shareholder report by design blinds them permanently from comprehending history.
You don't have to be German. Just slightly educated.
You’re right. I just meant that with the background of our history, that it’s something that wasn’t just said, but actually happened, it feels more concerning.
Which immigrants? They said that about Italians, then Irish. Seems the new guys on the block are always the bad guys until they aren't.
Elon Musk is an immigrant. Let's start there
Literally African-American.
Can we bring back lynching for a day? Just for him?
No?
Wtf.
No no. Just for him. There's a special place in hell for him and his clique, and the more painful way to deliver him there the better.
Lynching? Because he's technically African-American? Wow dude.
I agree with ending the rich and nationalizing their fortunes, but that's a bad joke.
A minority of voters. The stupid end of the intelligence bell curve.
The poor end of the for profit education industry
Nope just stupid. No amount of education can make a stupid person smart.
I think this is also a problem of perspective: the US Democrats are only "left" when seen from inside the US political spectrum. Seen from the outside they barely reach a center position and would be considered conservative-right in many other countries.
13% of any national group is enough to account for people who don't have any good reason to identify with that group but do so because their friends or family did.
Knowing what 13% of Democrats think tells you what the party is not, not what the party is. It's irrelevant to the tired, old point that you've dragged out here.
I was at a Ska show last night. They played a tRump ad about the border before the music. We almost left. Surreal, honestly, for the type of crowd I would expect.
Music and politics are super weird. Paul Ryan, former Republican speaker of the house, was an RATM fan until Tom Morello told him to fuck off. Ann Coulter is a massive Deadhead. So is Tucker Carlson. There's even a photo of Tucker hanging out with Jerry Garcia when he was in his 20s. The story is in an interview here if you can stomach it: https://www.maxraskin.com/interviews/interview-with-tucker-carlson
And then there's the musicians themselves- Johnny Ramone, Alice Cooper, Gene Simmons, all conservatives.
Music and right-wing politics are weird. I can't even begin to count how many bands were proudly anti-war in the 70s. Then there's the punk movement, which was highly critical of Reagan and Bush.
I guess music and a message of hope/protest works better than a message of oppression, especially when appealing to youth.
Springsteen's Born in the U.S.A. is about a Vietnam veteran who has been fucked over by the country he came back to.
Reagan used it as part of his flag-waving "it's morning in America" bullshit because no one listened to the lyrics beyond "I was born in the U.S.A."
Yeah, it's like Trump playing CCR's Fortunate Son. Fogerty was pissed.
Some folks are born made to wave the flag
Hoo, they're red, white and blue
And when the band plays "Hail to the chief"
Ooh, they point the cannon at you, Lord
It ain't me, it ain't me
I ain't no senator's son, son
It ain't me, it ain't me
I ain't no furtunate one, no
Some folks are born silver spoon in hand
Lord, don't they help themselves, Lord?
But when the taxman come to the door
Lord, the house lookin' like a rummage sale, yeah
It ain't me, it ain't me
I ain't no millionaire's son, no, no
It ain't me, it ain't me
I ain't no fortunate one, no
Yeah-yeah, some folks inherit star-spangled eyes
Hoo, they send you down to war, Lord
And when you ask 'em, "How much should we give?"
Hoo, they only answer, "More, more, more, more"
It ain't me, it ain't me
I ain't no military son, son, Lord
It ain't me, it ain't me
I ain't no fortunate one, one
He also plays YMCA at the end of his rallies constantly. I guess his audience doesn't know what that song is about or who The Village People even were.
Dude, I have anxiety (/s) from some of the people I have heard blast this. Like....YOU ARE the FORTUNATE ONE......the square footage of your pool would beg to differ on the amount of oppression the system is hoisting upon you :)
Springsteen should allow them to use the song but without the music just the lyrics.
Yeah, I get it. I was really into Dead Kennedys and Jellos spoken words. The whole movement was anti-rayguns. It's just super weird. I imagine Paul Ryan is so dumb he didn't realize he was the forces in which we we were raging. Conservatives are not big on context. i.e. YMCA....
Nothing could keep me there.
When my Jewish roommate told his parents he was dating a gentile they told him he was "thinning the blood"
I agree.
America for Native Americans.
So all the Caucasians must leave? How dumb are you?
No but they will be encouraged to return to their natural habitat.
Any issue any position, you can get 25% to agree. Another 5% is rounding error. Another 3% you get from trolls.
Just like that, you can get 1/3 support for anything you want and clickbait your way to victory!
Horrifying
Seems like the usual 1/3 that agrees with trump on whatever. Not gonna change.
Sooo…. A third of Americans have no problem admitting that the part of their brain that processes logic and reason is irreparably damaged.
More like not developed. Though I suppose a bit of both.
There are only a few counties in the world that draw the smartest and most accomplished from the rest of the world. The USA is pretty high on that list. This gives the USA an unfair advantage worldwide in several ways:
US schools and businesses get to pick from the best and brightest worldwide, promoting an atmosphere of high performance STEM jobs.
US replaces lost high education and high IQ population, since there is a negative correlation between education level and reproduction.
Finally, if you think in terms of winners vs losers, which I feel MAGAs do these days,, other countries lose their best and brightest, making them less competitive to the USA.
And of course don't forget that the vast majority of Americans come from families that immigrated, and few would argue that they themselves should be sent back "to where they came from".
No matter how you look at it, immigration is extremely advantageous to the USA if handled properly and an enviable position that many other countries wish they could be in.
After working construction for decades I can say that American workers are shit compared to foreigners. Muslim workers are the hardest. Especially from Ethiopia or Somalia. They learn fast too and are better in many cases than Mexican or SA workers. PLUS no drug or alcohol or daddy/mommy/religious issues.
When I was building in Africa we finished a project 3 days early. They didn’t even have the skills, we taught on site. That would NEVER happen with regular Americans.
Those are immigrants though. Have you ever seriously looked into the bullshit you need to go through to move to another country? It's insane.
Every immigrant is more impressive than any Olympian.
So a third of the country are Nazis.
Not racists, not misinformed, not uneducated, but actual Nazis.
In ~20 days, the most powerful and dangerous country on earth may well elect a party of Nazis to rule them.
God help us all.
"think of how dumb the average guy is. Now remember that half the population is dumber than him." -- George Carlin.
All you pale face non-natives gyit the fuuuck out!
To be fair, a significant percentage of those non-natives didn't choose to be here in the first place.
Not the paleface ones, but...
One third of Americans are fascists.
Checks out.
I think it's probably important to find out why this is, rather than just wag the finger and move on. Because, if the trend continues the non fascists will be outnumbered. In fact, I would say that this is really saying that 1/3rd of Americans feel free enough to say this. There's a good chance there's a silent amount afraid to say their true thoughts.
If it's just outside brainwashing, then investigate that. If there's a genuine root concern that is causing this attitude, see if it can be reasonably addressed. If it's just idiocracy happening, well then we're all screwed.
I would posit the opposite - if the trend continues, fascists will shrink further. You gotta remember, horrors of the past are not that long ago. Wasn't all that distant in our past when segregation had majority support, or blanket bans on nonwhite folk becoming naturalized citizens, or eugenics before that.
If we beat them now, we can continue the next four years to fight to shrink the hold that fascist views have on our society still further.
I mean if you think they can be beaten, sure. As an outsider I don't think I'd dare try to call the result of the US election for example and that's probably a pretty good way to measure the level of fascism there no?
My thinking is that there's usually a root cause for this. If that's something that can be addressed, then it probably should be looked into. I'm not ruling out that a large proportion of people are just stupid and/or easily led though.
From my point of view I see a shift to the right happening in Europe too. So, there's definitely a trend. The question for me, is why is it happening now? Outside influences for example?
I mean if you think they can be beaten, sure. As an outsider I don’t think I’d dare try to call the result of the US election for example and that’s probably a pretty good way to measure the level of fascism there no?
I would argue that there's a big difference in supporting fascists and supporting fascist policies. Not because supporting fascists is meaningfully better, but because ignorance means that many people who support fascists, but not fascist policy, are salvageable outside of the tribalist borders of election season.
God, the number of 'swing voters' you can have a conversation with and find out that they know nothing about either party's actual politics is... just horrific. People who call themselves anti-gun-control and support stricter gun control measures than I, a Berniecrat, do. People who talk about the horrors of open borders, and then when you talk to them they support significantly liberalized immigration law and a path to citizenship. 'Pro-life' supporters who, if presented with the loosest abortion laws in this country, express support for such 'reasonable' measures.
Not to be confused with embarrassed conservatives, who will take all those positions if pressed, but immediately revert once in friendly company. I'm talking about people I've given no hint of my politics to and no leading statements but suss out that they simply have no goddamn clue what they're talking about.
They're the ~17% of the country that's not fascist, but very well may hand over the country to fascists this coming election. And if that happens, they'll genuinely have no fucking clue how fascism took power.
They're not good citizens. They are absolutely supporting fascism in this coming election. But in the long term, they can be saved. In the long-term, they don't need to be a blight on this country's politics.
God, the number of ‘swing voters’ you can have a conversation with and find out that they know nothing about either party’s actual politics is… just horrific. People who call themselves anti-gun-control and support stricter gun control measures than I, a Berniecrat, do. People who talk about the horrors of open borders, and then when you talk to them they support significantly liberalized immigration law and a path to citizenship. ‘Pro-life’ supporters who, if presented with the loosest abortion laws in this country, express support for such ‘reasonable’ measures.
Here in the UK I sometimes think most people know more about US politics than domestic politics. So, I know how this kind of ignorance can happen.
But then, if you're suggesting talking to people with fascist views, then that's also the point I'm making too. Because that's finding out why they think the way they do and perhaps changing their mind by telling them which things they've been told were wrong all along. My experience has been that the indoctrinated people will listen to what you say, perhaps even agree. Then, in short order revert to the old talking points.
Regarding the "embarrassed" conservatives. I wonder if they're more just conservatives that are following the flow of their fellow conservatives, not really considering the full impact the result may have. You don't need to look further than the running mate, to see how republicans are happy to endorse trump, even though they don't stand for most of what he says. Because winning matters most. I wonder if some conservatives are casting a blind-eye to the fascist undertones, because overall they will otherwise get what they want?
But then, if you’re suggesting talking to people with fascist views, then that’s also the point I’m making too. Because that’s finding out why they think the way they do and perhaps changing their mind by telling them which things they’ve been told were wrong all along. My experience has been that the indoctrinated people will listen to what you say, perhaps even agree. Then, in short order revert to the old talking points.
That's what I mean about embarrassed conservatives - they're a different (though also horrifically common) scenario than swing voters. Embarrassed conservatives (ie people with fascist views) are likely, in an anonymous poll, to fully fess up to thinking immigrants are 'poisoning the blood' of the country.
The folks I'm talking about don't hold fascist views, but they have all the 'right' tribalist labels, and no clue what they actually mean in terms of policy proposals. To them, it may as well be saying "I am Pro-Good and Anti-Bad". If you ask them, in an anonymous poll, about a policy position or statement, you'll likely get a response that's not bugfuck insane - but their voting habits are indistinguishable, because they have no clue about the actual state of politics in this country. Or any country. Or of politics in general.
Who did they poll? How was the poll conducted?
If it's a phone poll you're going to get old people, no one younger than 40 is going to do a phone poll. And most old people are conservatives.
When it comes to polls, it's very easy to manipulate the results either in how it's done or how the results are interpreted.
If only there were some sort of article you could click on and read which would answer these questions for you. Maybe with a link directly to that poll.
Alas...
I wonder how many of those people are children of immigrants.
(although, in a broader view, probably all of them are at least descendants of immigrants)
Donald Trump is the child of an immigrant. His mother was from Scotland.
Of course, that makes her the "right kind" of immigrant.
And then there's two of the mothers of four of his children. Ivana and Melania, both immigrants.
His new bestie, Musk, is 1st generation. As is Thiel. I'd be fine with deporting them though.
I agree. In fact, can we really be sure that any other billionaires might or might not be immigrants? We should probably round them all up just to be safe. We can deport the ones we think are immigrants and worry about the rest later.
And where in time does he draw the line where everyone after it is an immigrant?
I don't know, but the lines are weird as fuck at this point.
Seems like at some point when the immigrants started getting a bit less pale in appearance.
I don't think the US has an immigrant problem really. I think it's just plain old fashioned racism dressed up with a fancier word.
In time? In hue, you mean.
Which bloodline would that be? The great Royal bloodline of the Ancient American Empire?
What about all those people saying they're 1/16th Cherokee?
I'm struggling here to avoid being offensive - but really, Americans often appear to me to be averaging subhuman intelligence.
Yesterday I was reading about Latino MAGA's who just assume Trump isn't talking about them...
Using "subhuman" for persons while arguing against eugenics...
You can't make that stuff up
everyone thinks they are the leopard eating faces until a bigger leopard eats their face.
Just a reminder, there were "Jews for Hitler". We can guess what happened to them after hitler rose to power.
They built a space laser?
I'm not saying America is the center of world intellectualism, but you're also getting quite a selection bias since "stupid American" stories are even popular to other Americans.
I thought that same
But actually, after visiting Denver I was super surprised by how friendly and normal people were
I'd easily live there (and no, I'm not a weed smoker. Never tried it, no plans to, do doesn't influence my decision)
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. - George Carlin
Great man, that George Carlin, great man.
This might be a controversial take, but I don't think racist bigotry is an intelligence thing
The study and measure of intelligence itself is a piece of the rationalization of racism.
We owe a lot of our scientific inheritance to genociders and racists and eugenicists - I wouldn't be quick to assume the MAGA base is just a bunch of dimwitted Americans.
When 33% of the population agree that immigrants 'poison the blood' - what's your take on that?
Should we assume that some very well balanced people believe that foreigners have poisonous blood?
My take? That a third of the american population has taken a liking to fascism.
Fascism isn't borne out of stupidity, it's borne out of greed and desperation. Sure, some of those people are probably as dumb as a bag of rocks (any slice of the american population is liable to have a few), but most are likely just your average-intelligence american who has taken their feelings of fear or envy and rationalized them into fascism.
People like Josef Mangele don't become famous because they're dumb - they become famous because they end up wielding their intelligence against humanity. If we were to assume that everyone with those beliefs is dumb, we'd misunderstand what motivates them and we'd waste our time trying to educate them out of bigotry.
Don't 30-40% of any given population support a strong man/fascist anyway?
Well, seeing as 1/3 of Americans are brainwashed by mass media into following whatever hype train is set forth by the rich, I can see that. If their favorite corporate owned and ran "news" told them they didn't need to eat, they would stop eating.
America is home to racist morons, has been since July 4th, 1776. Most of the Founding Fathers owned slaves, and the Senate and Electoral College were established to ease the slave owners/states that their "property" would remain theirs.
We've been a nation of hypocritical xenophobes who taught freedom and liberty while giving none of it to the majority, and every time we try to fix that they double down and make things worse. Not a single time has the US Government (or any government for that matter, but that's more a "whatabout" in this topic) given people what they wanted freely, and peacefully.
If we wanted to get rid of brain dead morons, we would solved it in the Civil War and Reconstitution. Second chance was in the 1960s when we were breaking down the barriers. Instead we still placated to the racists because we didn't want to be too mean to the racist, sexist morons who started the mess in the first place.
Something something and soil something something nazi
I searched for the actual question text and found:
Q19a. The immigrants entering the country illegally today are poisoning the blood of our country.
The split was 14% completely agreed and 20% mostly agreed.
I'm not as surprised by the results as the headline would have suggested because of the use of the word illegally. It biases the question negatively.
The 20% who mostly agreed may have agreed with some negative connotation surrounding illegal immigration while ignoring the racism of "poisoning the blood." In other words, if I put myself in the shoes of someone who feels strongly about securing the border, I could understand how those respondents would lean towards agree simply because of the use of the word "illegal."
To further support this interpretation: In the same survey, more than 40% of respondents favor or strongly favor building a wall along the US-Mexico border.
Maybe I'm just optimistic that only around an eighth of the country is completely crazy and that is just a less clickbaity title.
13% of Democrats agree with Trump on that.
What the actual fuck?
No surprise? People have nuanced views, different opinions, from left to center to right, even hardcore racist ones... and vote Democrats. Just as you could find conservatives who do not agree with the statement.
The statement is so vague and loaded and can be agreed or disagreed with from all kinds of people.
Edit: And yes it's quite ironic(?) that so many people agree with this - in a country where people unironically track that they're 12% German, or 20% Irish, or whatever.
Worth noting that the ancient Greeks believed that democracy is impossible without an ethnically homogeneous population. Otherwise, they believed that there would be too many different competing intentions, that politicians would not have any clear direction and it would be very difficult to get anything important resolved. People love making emotional arguments regarding inclusivity, which is hard to reject without sounding boorish, but there are actual practical concerns with the situation.
Yes, but they also thought that women were inferior to men and slavery was an awesome idea, so maybe they aren't the best people to look back on for opinions.
That's why you consider the reasons presented by those who invented democracy, rather than simply accepting an idea based entirely on who presented it.
You don't have to answer me, but ask yourself if our current societies have too many competing ideals, that it's hard to get anything important done.
They invented direct Athenian democracy.
The U.S. is the first constitutional republic. They are extremely different. This is like saying NASA engineers should consider why the Wright Brothers never left the atmosphere.
America's problems have nothing to do with what the Ancient Greeks believed.
and yet the entire enlightenment political infrastucture we have built is based on their ideas.
Nonsense. The Enlightenment was inspired by many ancient Greek and other philosophers, not just advocates of Athenian democracy.
ok.
I mean, I don't want to be too rude but look at the European democracies who are typically praised in contrast to the U.S. Their populations have been significantly more ethnically homogenous, and only recently have they begun to deal with significant immigrant populations of differently colored peoples. How have they done? Immediate rise of far-right groups and tons of anti-immigrant propoganda.
I'm not claiming the Greeks were right, I think they had a small-minded view of what diversity could bring them, but it is an interesting observation.
On the other hand look at the US, which has been extremely successful as an ethnically diverse republic and in fact wouldn't be nearly as successful without that diversity. America has problems, but none of them are because there are a lot of different people there.
I mean, the massive number of racists who are currently trying to elect a fascist would disagree, and I think many minority groups would disagree that there haven't been problems in the very recent past.
Certainly, the fault lies in the racists, but we can't pretend that is not a problem directly caused by having an ethnically diverse country. It's one that we'll need to find a solution for, because otherwise we'll always have a group who is willing to burn democracy to the ground because they hate people who have a different skin color.
I think many minority groups would disagree that there haven't been problems in the very recent past.
I mean there are problems for minorities, but not for America as a whole I mean.
because otherwise we'll always have a group who is willing to burn democracy to the ground because they hate people who have a different skin color.
I think it's debatable they only do it because they hate people with a different skin color. They also hate women and poor people, among other things, so while the rhetoric would be different I don't think being a 100% white country would do much to curb the American far right.
Edit: Auto-Blocking Unreasonable people. I told you, all that they have is emotional responses and think spamming labels is what makes them right. It doesn't. Just makes you a broken record.
I'm going to take a hit but I don't care because I really have been talking to someone about this. Everyone is okay with immigration, until they have faced or been in situations where someone from another country is hired over someone who was naturally born in a country. Everyone is okay with immigration until a migrant is housed over someone who is naturally born.
I have my problems with immigration. I don't necessarily blame the individuals, well, some of them because some of the migrants I've come across have been quite socially unaware and absolutely refuse to like adapt to the atmosphere of the country they migrated to. And it can be frustrating to deal with. It's not entirely their fault that businesses seem to see them as just labor fodder as well as the government sees them as economic fodder.
It's an issue that needs to be discussed and addressed. People don't want to talk about it because they resort to just brandishing people as xenophobic. But I bet you may have a change of mind if you ever come across a couple of the scenarios I've exampled. We have problems in our country when it comes to the homeless, to the veterans and to the poor. I think it is absolutely unfair and unwarranted to prioritize thousands of migrants who come here over all of them.
That is where I think the agreement is coming from. I don't agree with Trump's way of handling it (then again every "solution" he comes up with is incredibly extremist and impossible to pull off, especially if it's coming from him.) I don't agree also to have open borders either.
We need to sit down and analyze the immigration policy closely, that has been broken for years. Why the hell have we not had a single politician yet that is running for presidency that has a solution by now? For christ sake.
If we continue to not fix this problem, America just going to be weighed down the same way Canada got weighed down. The same way some parts of the EU got weighed down. America is just going to follow suit.
But all we can say is "ugh, you so xenophobic" or "ugh, we're all immigrants!".
Come on people, let's be adults and actually address the issue to fix it, huh?
Everyone is okay with immigration, until they have faced or been in situations where someone from another country is hired over someone who was naturally born in a country. Everyone is okay with immigration until a migrant is housed over someone who is naturally born.
Uh...no, I have no problem with an immigrant getting a job in my country. Or having a place to live.
If you aren't okay with those, then when you say "immigration", you might be thinking of "tourism". If you're not okay with immigrants having a job and a place to live, you're not okay with tourism.
Everyone is okay with immigration, until they have faced or been in situations where someone from another country is hired over someone who was naturally born in a country.
I have every right to be here as you do. Why should you get a job that we both applied for just because you were born here?
I’m going to take a hit but I don’t care because I really have been talking to someone about this. Everyone is okay with immigration, until they have faced or been in situations where someone from another country is hired over someone who was naturally born in a country.
I guess they should have had better qualifications.
Everyone is okay with immigration until a migrant is housed over someone who is naturally born.
some of the migrants I’ve come across have been quite socially unaware and absolutely refuse to like adapt to the atmosphere of the country they migrated to.
That country being the "great melting pot" where those cultures get adopted by and integrated into society?
People don’t want to talk about it because they resort to just brandishing people as xenophobic.
Except all the people loudly talking about it all the time.
I don’t agree also to have open borders either.
Please name the people who want open borders.
Why the hell have we not had a single politician yet that is running for presidency that has a solution by now?
You mean why do they not have a solution you'll accept.
But all we can say is “ugh, you so xenophobic”
Possibly.
or “ugh, we’re all immigrants!”.
Correct, unless you're indigenous.
Correct, unless you're indigenous.
Really everyone came from somewhere else. If we all go back to where our most distant ancestors came from, that spot in Africa is going to be really crowded.
It's about colonised or coloniser, with drastically different privilege and safety for white folks than someone with melanin. You can play nuance games all you want, in the end this is pitting proles against proles for the sake of empire building. The common person would be much safer, happier and harmonious in the world of Land Back than the Neo-Colonialism we endure.
I'm willing to concede that while indigenous peoples are technically immigrants, they don't really need to be viewed that way for practical purposes.
Witness this right wing authoritarian whining about getting ratio'd for spouting Moral-Fear-Propaganda openly dehumanizing one group of people under another, crying about it.
Fascism is a virus all of it's own, a weird evil in a bad way, the only kinds of degenerates with the only kind of kinks society must stop. Their bloodlust is the poison. This White-Supermacist, Eugenicist Cancer asks you to turn your neighbor in and destroys every nation that obliges.
So reader, Solidarity Forever. Ill promise you, you promise me, to never sell each other out to these murderous theives. I'll call you on your shit, please call me on mine. We'll work together, and our grass will be the greener in time. ❤️🔥
(Obvs wont be replying, will be mute-block-deleting any interactions from bigots)
Man you're so uneducated, all you know is buzzwords and regurgitated drum lines.
I think you may have missed the point of the article. I don't think it's reasonable to assume democrats don't want to do anything about immigration. Trump and Biden both have basically the same plan to address illegal immigration. Harris' plan is similar to both of theirs as well.
Illegal immigration is not nearly as serious as the average Republican might believe. They add strain to systems already working beyond their limits, but legal or illegal migrant workers aren't displacing citizens at work and aren't leading to the kinds of outcomes Mr. Trump would like his followers to believe. It does happen occasionally, but not enough to justify the alarming hate filled rhetoric.
The problem is that "poisoning the blood" is nakedly racist. The phrase has been used for over 100 years as a dog whistle for white nationalism. How can you have a rational discussion about addressing the real problems that enable illegal immigrants (American businesses hiring them) or the additional strain they put on already over worked and under funded public services if one side is ideologically set on the notion that migrants are evil?
I don't think it's reasonable to believe that democrats don't want to address the border. Safe, legal migration into the United States benefits everyone. If we streamlined the legal immigration process and cracked down hard on businesses and individuals hiring undocumented migrants, that would address the bulk of migrants illegally crossing our borders.
Perhaps we make it a felony with mandatory jail time (per infraction) to hire an undocumented worker or own a company that employs them. Or perhaps we remove the exemptions some types of businesses enjoy from paying minimum wage. One of the reasons businesses hire illegal immigrants in the first place is they are cheaper than American workers because you can pay them less than minimum wage.
Right now there are a lot of businesses that benefit from cheap migrant labor, if we can break that trend, some of those businesses will fold, for sure. But do we want to let failed businesses that can't stay open without breaking the laws of the United States to continue to operate?
Edit: And of course as expected, three people already came up to bat and readily swung and missed by getting too emotional with their responses. That’s not really taking the issue like an adult.
Is that what you think really happened? Can you quote this emotionality from my response since I was one of those three?
Immigrants are the blood of the US. This fascist bullshit is the poison.
From the "Great American Melting Pot" to this shit in one generation. WTF
If you think this is new, you haven't paid attention to history.
This is the US. Mutt Nation. What the hell does "pure" or "poisoned" blood mean here?
Look up mud people
This country, possibly your grandfathers or great-grandfathers (and in many cases grandmothes), went to war against Nazis, as did most of the world. There were a few fringe sympathizers, but they weren't representative of "the greatest generation."
This shit is a new Nazi wave, and it's not a continuation of something. It's a flare-up of an old ugly root. All over the world these shits are gaining ground. New media empowers them.
The idea that the world united against the horrible atrocities of the Nazis is post-war propaganda. Your average person didn't know anything about what was going on until photos of the camps made their way home as we pushed into Germany itself. Most countries didn't give a shit about the Nazis until they were on their doorstep. Most people said, "Hitler's only saying that stuff to get elected. Once he's in office, he'll calm down, you'll see." And then they said, "Well, if we leave him alone, then he won't bother us."
Many people across Europe and North America actually agreed with Hitler's views about the Jews before "The Final Solution." Antisemitism was common across Europe and North America, if not the globe. In Mein Kampf, Hitler refers to America as the sisterland across the ocean that shares his values.
The phrase "Make America Great Again" was used by the pro-isolationism political group the America First Committee, who formed in 1940 and dissolved after the attack on Pearl Harbor, who largely opposed support for the UK. And they had over 800,000 members from all different backgrounds (from Democrats and Republicans to communists and anti-communists) with major tones of antisemitism and pro-fascist support amongst its leaders and speakers. They dissolved 4 days after Pearl Harbor and joined the war effort, not to fight the Nazis but to protect the US.
The Nazis were inspired by the treatment of Native Americans when they started their camps, and we had our own camps for Japanese Americans. We hated the Chinese when they came here, and we hated the Irish as well. Most ethnic groups coming to the US settled in communities of their own culture from their homeland. That's why the culture is so varied here, even across a single state. To quote somebody else, "Racism is as American as apple pie, and some people will see hatred of the first as hatred of the second."
I remember the days after 9/11, when attacks on black people doubled, attacks on Jews tripled, and Muslim parents were asking their kids if they wanted to change their name to something more American to avoid being bullied. That racism has always been present. It was just often couched in the lie of being edgy jokes or just that one racist uncle at the family party. The biggest differences today are that they're no longer afraid to say it openly, and the number of young men caught up in the rhetoric of the online fascist pipeline that gives them a target to blame all the problems in their life on. The ironic racist jokes of their teen and childhood years stopped being ironic at some point and became their actual beliefs.
The idea that Nazi sympathisers were a fringe group is an vast oversimplification of history. Yes, America chose to fight against the Nazis, but there were huge racist/eugenist movements at the time that included high-ranking politicians and military personnel. Look up the America First movement for just one example.
I first learned about this from the podcast ULTRA. I kept having to check their sources and do further research, because what they said sounded so wild that I felt I should have already known it. Instead it's just another example of people not wanting to teach their uncomfortable history like the Tulsa race massacre, Indian residential schools in the US and Canada, the Tuskegee syphilis study, etc, etc, etc.
Also, I'd suggest you learn about the history of Nazi Germay. The Nazis weren't this huge supermajority of the German population, they just had people in the right positions, took power by force, and the populace went along with it. It's not hard to see parallels with a lot of events in US history where if things went just a bit different the USA could have become a racist, authoritarian state.
In 2016 they said it couldn't happen here. They laughed at the idea of trump getting elected. They were shocked when he was elected and racism once again reared its ugly head. In Germany they said it couldn't happen here and look what happened. Now we have Trump, the racists have come out of the woodwork, project 2025 was revealed and we're very close to the end of America if we don't do something.
For reference to my comment: http://rsdb.org/slur/mud_people
Nativism is unfortunately a consistent undercurrent.
Look up the "Know Nothing" movement.
The US has a growing fascism problem
It does not go away with Trump. I wish democrats would address it instead of pointing at Trump like he's an aberration
Fascism is the problem. Trump is a very notable symptom, but many others are also to blame for the fascism issue, including some democrats. I believe this fixation with Trump is due to people wanting simple answers to complex problems.
The fixation is because there is no clear line of succession. If he fails, who steps in? They'll splinter and fragment. They'll still be deplorable, but less effective when not united behind a single authoritarian leader.
Like how democrats splintered and fragmented when Biden stepped down?
They'll reform and continue gaining power in lower-level positions until the next election, like they've been doing since 2020
I cannot emphasize how naieve it is to think this problem will go away if all we do is beat trump, or even if he dies or gets incarcerated.
Democrats aren't authoritarians. It's a bad comparison. Democrats are always fragmented, it's virtually a defining characteristic. Post-Biden unity has been quite unusual.
Like I said, it's incredibly naive to think this problem goes away when Trump does.
If you say so.
The symptom is on the brink of winning everything.
When you have a 42 °C fever, you focus on the fever before worrying about the infection. Dead people don't need antibiotics.
That's funny because we're almost all immigrants, so I guess we're all poison?
Ehh, then again there was that whole native genocide thing.
No, no, no, not us. I'm talking about those bad immigrants. You know who I'm talking about .....
Someone get the family guy skin color chart
I got you
Great work!
Yeah, I guess in their minds it's preferable to entirely exterminate a local population than to assimilate with them
You're all immigrants you idiots.
Nuh uh. I was born here. My parents were born here. (/s, of course)
Let's not go back any further than that because it hurts the argument.
For context, I am 50% Italian, 25% French, 12.5% Irish, and 12.5% English. At least going off what my parents had told me. I never did a DNA test or anything.
It's been barely 60 years since racism against Italian- and Irish-American individuals really eased up. All based on xenophobia and an anti-Catholic belief. Before that, they may as well have been Black. Or worse, Japanese.
Tons of people alive today that experienced it first hand. Did all the lead in the paint and gasoline make them forget all about it?
Even still today we have to tiptoe around ideas like renaming Columbus Day. On the one hand, he was a massive piece of shit. On the other hand, it's morphed into the only holiday celebrating Italian-American heritage. I very much agree with the former, but if we are gonna go all-out on St. Patrick's Day, Italians should have a day too.
Maybe we could make a bigger deal out of St. Joseph. I could really go for a zeppole right about now, but that's really all I know of the day. It's a day for a zeppole.
i live in a small town full of old people who incessantly whine about people "moving here and trying to change things" from other parts of the country. while sitting on stolen cherokee land.
among americans there is this weird fucked up notion that we are, and always were, entitled to this land, and no one else is allowed on it. including the people who were living here first. it's been passed down through generations since the first colonists and still remains, even among democrats. so we hate "other," but we especially hate them when they move into town. and god fucking forbid they ever speak anything but 'murican
for context, my town still has a confederate statue because the usual "bUt MuH hIsToReEeEeEeEs"
We are indeed, and...we are indeed.
its the 100% venn overlap of racists. america is still pretty full up on people who hate other people for no reason but race
The real racists are the ones calling people racist just because they hate people for no reason but race.
Racists are not a protected group. Its totally fine and important to hate racists
Obvious sarcasm getting down votes ...
I was seriously considering adding a /s but I was like nah, that's lame it should be obvious.
Poe's Law strikes again. There are people who actually say that and mean it.
I feel that they would at least change the framing instead of directly mirroring the OP. "Hating people for no reason but their race" is pretty clearly the definition of racism. Usually racists reframe their argument as actually being about criminality or at the very least some fear of cultural change.
How?
Says the country that is 99% immigrant blood
Yeah the non immigrant blood is the one they spilled
Remember that a horrifying number of people, especially conservatives, are invaluable of caring about - or even noticing - any problem that doesn't personally impact themselves.
1/3 of Americans are terrible people.
This is why GW Bush and Trump got elected. There is about 30% that will always vote for R.
A comment above would point to those 2 being different: https://lemmy.sdf.org/comment/15146574
Compare to George W. Bush, who said:
"We’re also a nation of immigrants, and we must uphold that tradition, which has strengthened our country in so many ways."
and:
"Some in this country argue that the solution is to — is to deport every illegal immigrant and that any proposal short of this amounts to amnesty. I disagree. It is neither wise nor realistic to round up millions of people, many with deep roots in the United States, and send them across the border."
and:
"We must honor the great American tradition of the melting pot, which has made us one nation out of many peoples. The success of our country depends upon helping newcomers assimilate into our society, and embrace our common identity as Americans."
Source
I'm not saying G.W. was good or anything, but god damn that's a big change from what we see now from Republicans.
I got a lot of heat for saying it before, but as a Latino, out of all his shit, racist is not something I ever got from Bush. He did a lot for Africa in terms of foreign aid, more than any president before him. He has positive things to say about immigration like you mentioned, and he grew up around a lot of Latinos, and his brother is married to a Mexican. So I never saw his family as racists. Fuck how is it possible I'm missing the Bush family?
You never saw GW Bush as racist, but Middle Eastern Americans would disagree because leaders at that time didn’t do enough to combat the wave of Islamophobia which occurred after 9/11. Now it’s just the Latinos turn being the scapegoat. Republicans almost always play the racism card, just the target is different. Americans deserve better.
Edit to point out that when I say “Republicans” in my post, I mean the talking heads. I know individuals and people who may vote Republican may not necessarily feel the same
But the racism card never becomes a deal-breaker. Republicans are more likely to get in line and go to the polls than those who lean to the left. If you choose to associate with and elect people who broadcast hateful rhetoric, you bear responsibility.
A third of Americans are xenophobic bigots. Got it.
Meanwhile they proudly exclaim their great great great great grand daddy came in on the Mayflower.
They also love to claim that they had a great-grandmother who was "full-blooded Cherokee" (it's almost always Cherokee) and if you check their DNA, nope. All European.
Bet. So why don't all you palefaces go back to England, Ireland, Germany, Spain, France...
So, you mean everyone except the native Americans should leave America? Just trying to understand clearly the implications of what you're suggesting :P
In all seriousness, after all this time I would bet most people couldn't trace a lineage to a single country now anyway.
They probably couldn't. And Europe being what it is, a bunch of them would have lineage going back to a country that no longer exists, i.e. if they were of any of the states that were ultimately absorbed into unified Germany in the 1800's.
It's all arbitrary. But we know damn well Trump and his goons don't mean "white" people when they say "immigrants."
Please no. We already have 20-30% of people voting for fascists in Germany. We dont need more
I heard Russia is accepting immigrants.
I mean, how many people supported slavery and later, Jim Crow.
thesamepicture.jpg
The funny thing, though, is that the people who supported slavery also generally supported immigration. And I don't mean by importing slaves (that too, of course). They wanted immigrants because they wanted America to grow. Sure, they didn't want black immigrants, but that's a whole other thing. When Chinese immigrants started pouring into California during the Gold Rush era, the response wasn't, "immigrants are poisoning the blood of our country!" it was "Hey! Dirt cheap labor! And stay out of the buildings with the posted 'no Chinese' signs or else."
So even those people, awful as they were, wouldn't agree.
Chinese Exclusion Act says hi.
Okay, fair point. But that wasn't really a "poisoning the blood of our country" thing either. It was a "they tuk'r jerbs" situation.
Oh, no, there was definitely strong fears at the time that foreigners would 'ruin' America, and blood-related arguments were far more in vogue then than now. Even foreigners as white as the Irish and Germans.
It was a 'catholics are evil and all follow the commands of the pope so we can't let them in, they'll sell us all out to the European powers' thing.
Also Irish are all drunks and Italians are all criminals, unlike the wonderful people who populated this country who were the European upper crust of course, and not religious nut jobs and people fleeing debt or other crimes.
Don't get me started on antisemitism: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-united-states-and-the-refugee-crisis-1938-41
Not just fleeing debt or crimes. People tend to be pretty well familiar with the British Empire using Australia as a penal colony, but that didn't really get going until after the American Revolution. Before that they just used the 13 Colonies. Not quite as far to travel, bit cheaper.
We've largely blotted out that particular perception, though, replacing it with pilgrims in funny hats fleeing religious persecution. Which, there were those too, of course, but there was also quite a lot of every other sort of person.
Yea one of the big ironies of history was that Abraham Lincoln was that he wanted to ship all of the newly freed slaves out of the US and back to Africa or South America: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linconia
For peace, he knew how monstrously cruel and evil the south was and that they would never tolerate black people as anything but chattel.
Removing them made sense.
I wish he wasn't so kind and gentle, giving every slave owner to their slaves and walking away would have solved most of Americas problems to this day
As a German, knowing what happened in Nazi Germany and what Hitler’s beliefs and actions were at that time, this “rhetoric” is beyond troubling and disturbing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_eugenics
People forget very quickly. Just look at what's happening in Germany and Austria and the Netherlands and France and Italy. It's like everyone's ignoring history.
Yes, and people who forget history are destined to repeat it. It’s sad to hear some people in Germany wanting to “get over” our history…
America's entire Capitalist model is based on 3-month cycles of amnesia. It is designed to forget. Business could be run successful, profitable, and non-asshole, but the hunt for the next quarterly positive shareholder report by design blinds them permanently from comprehending history.
You don't have to be German. Just slightly educated.
Unfortunately, it's specifically poorly educated people that Trump appeals to. He says so himself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpdt7omPoa0
You’re right. I just meant that with the background of our history, that it’s something that wasn’t just said, but actually happened, it feels more concerning.
Which immigrants? They said that about Italians, then Irish. Seems the new guys on the block are always the bad guys until they aren't.
Elon Musk is an immigrant. Let's start there
Literally African-American.
Can we bring back lynching for a day? Just for him?
No?
Wtf.
No no. Just for him. There's a special place in hell for him and his clique, and the more painful way to deliver him there the better.
Lynching? Because he's technically African-American? Wow dude.
I agree with ending the rich and nationalizing their fortunes, but that's a bad joke.
A minority of voters. The stupid end of the intelligence bell curve.
The poor end of the for profit education industry
Nope just stupid. No amount of education can make a stupid person smart.
I think this is also a problem of perspective: the US Democrats are only "left" when seen from inside the US political spectrum. Seen from the outside they barely reach a center position and would be considered conservative-right in many other countries.
13% of any national group is enough to account for people who don't have any good reason to identify with that group but do so because their friends or family did.
Knowing what 13% of Democrats think tells you what the party is not, not what the party is. It's irrelevant to the tired, old point that you've dragged out here.
I was at a Ska show last night. They played a tRump ad about the border before the music. We almost left. Surreal, honestly, for the type of crowd I would expect.
Music and politics are super weird. Paul Ryan, former Republican speaker of the house, was an RATM fan until Tom Morello told him to fuck off. Ann Coulter is a massive Deadhead. So is Tucker Carlson. There's even a photo of Tucker hanging out with Jerry Garcia when he was in his 20s. The story is in an interview here if you can stomach it: https://www.maxraskin.com/interviews/interview-with-tucker-carlson
And then there's the musicians themselves- Johnny Ramone, Alice Cooper, Gene Simmons, all conservatives.
Music and right-wing politics are weird. I can't even begin to count how many bands were proudly anti-war in the 70s. Then there's the punk movement, which was highly critical of Reagan and Bush.
I guess music and a message of hope/protest works better than a message of oppression, especially when appealing to youth.
Springsteen's Born in the U.S.A. is about a Vietnam veteran who has been fucked over by the country he came back to.
Reagan used it as part of his flag-waving "it's morning in America" bullshit because no one listened to the lyrics beyond "I was born in the U.S.A."
Yeah, it's like Trump playing CCR's Fortunate Son. Fogerty was pissed.
Some folks are born made to wave the flag Hoo, they're red, white and blue And when the band plays "Hail to the chief" Ooh, they point the cannon at you, Lord
It ain't me, it ain't me I ain't no senator's son, son It ain't me, it ain't me I ain't no furtunate one, no
Some folks are born silver spoon in hand Lord, don't they help themselves, Lord? But when the taxman come to the door Lord, the house lookin' like a rummage sale, yeah
It ain't me, it ain't me I ain't no millionaire's son, no, no It ain't me, it ain't me I ain't no fortunate one, no
Yeah-yeah, some folks inherit star-spangled eyes Hoo, they send you down to war, Lord And when you ask 'em, "How much should we give?" Hoo, they only answer, "More, more, more, more"
It ain't me, it ain't me I ain't no military son, son, Lord It ain't me, it ain't me I ain't no fortunate one, one
He also plays YMCA at the end of his rallies constantly. I guess his audience doesn't know what that song is about or who The Village People even were.
Dude, I have anxiety (/s) from some of the people I have heard blast this. Like....YOU ARE the FORTUNATE ONE......the square footage of your pool would beg to differ on the amount of oppression the system is hoisting upon you :)
Springsteen should allow them to use the song but without the music just the lyrics.
Yeah, I get it. I was really into Dead Kennedys and Jellos spoken words. The whole movement was anti-rayguns. It's just super weird. I imagine Paul Ryan is so dumb he didn't realize he was the forces in which we we were raging. Conservatives are not big on context. i.e. YMCA....
Nothing could keep me there.
When my Jewish roommate told his parents he was dating a gentile they told him he was "thinning the blood"
I agree.
America for Native Americans.
So all the Caucasians must leave? How dumb are you?
No but they will be encouraged to return to their natural habitat.
At first.
Fine. Deport my ass back to Ireland. 🇮🇪
Any issue any position, you can get 25% to agree. Another 5% is rounding error. Another 3% you get from trolls.
Just like that, you can get 1/3 support for anything you want and clickbait your way to victory!
Horrifying
Seems like the usual 1/3 that agrees with trump on whatever. Not gonna change.
Sooo…. A third of Americans have no problem admitting that the part of their brain that processes logic and reason is irreparably damaged.
More like not developed. Though I suppose a bit of both.
There are only a few counties in the world that draw the smartest and most accomplished from the rest of the world. The USA is pretty high on that list. This gives the USA an unfair advantage worldwide in several ways:
US schools and businesses get to pick from the best and brightest worldwide, promoting an atmosphere of high performance STEM jobs.
US replaces lost high education and high IQ population, since there is a negative correlation between education level and reproduction.
Finally, if you think in terms of winners vs losers, which I feel MAGAs do these days,, other countries lose their best and brightest, making them less competitive to the USA.
And of course don't forget that the vast majority of Americans come from families that immigrated, and few would argue that they themselves should be sent back "to where they came from".
No matter how you look at it, immigration is extremely advantageous to the USA if handled properly and an enviable position that many other countries wish they could be in.
After working construction for decades I can say that American workers are shit compared to foreigners. Muslim workers are the hardest. Especially from Ethiopia or Somalia. They learn fast too and are better in many cases than Mexican or SA workers. PLUS no drug or alcohol or daddy/mommy/religious issues.
When I was building in Africa we finished a project 3 days early. They didn’t even have the skills, we taught on site. That would NEVER happen with regular Americans.
Those are immigrants though. Have you ever seriously looked into the bullshit you need to go through to move to another country? It's insane.
Every immigrant is more impressive than any Olympian.
So a third of the country are Nazis.
Not racists, not misinformed, not uneducated, but actual Nazis.
In ~20 days, the most powerful and dangerous country on earth may well elect a party of Nazis to rule them.
God help us all.
"think of how dumb the average guy is. Now remember that half the population is dumber than him." -- George Carlin.
All you pale face non-natives gyit the fuuuck out!
To be fair, a significant percentage of those non-natives didn't choose to be here in the first place.
Not the paleface ones, but...
One third of Americans are fascists.
Checks out.
I think it's probably important to find out why this is, rather than just wag the finger and move on. Because, if the trend continues the non fascists will be outnumbered. In fact, I would say that this is really saying that 1/3rd of Americans feel free enough to say this. There's a good chance there's a silent amount afraid to say their true thoughts.
If it's just outside brainwashing, then investigate that. If there's a genuine root concern that is causing this attitude, see if it can be reasonably addressed. If it's just idiocracy happening, well then we're all screwed.
I would posit the opposite - if the trend continues, fascists will shrink further. You gotta remember, horrors of the past are not that long ago. Wasn't all that distant in our past when segregation had majority support, or blanket bans on nonwhite folk becoming naturalized citizens, or eugenics before that.
If we beat them now, we can continue the next four years to fight to shrink the hold that fascist views have on our society still further.
I mean if you think they can be beaten, sure. As an outsider I don't think I'd dare try to call the result of the US election for example and that's probably a pretty good way to measure the level of fascism there no?
My thinking is that there's usually a root cause for this. If that's something that can be addressed, then it probably should be looked into. I'm not ruling out that a large proportion of people are just stupid and/or easily led though.
From my point of view I see a shift to the right happening in Europe too. So, there's definitely a trend. The question for me, is why is it happening now? Outside influences for example?
I would argue that there's a big difference in supporting fascists and supporting fascist policies. Not because supporting fascists is meaningfully better, but because ignorance means that many people who support fascists, but not fascist policy, are salvageable outside of the tribalist borders of election season.
God, the number of 'swing voters' you can have a conversation with and find out that they know nothing about either party's actual politics is... just horrific. People who call themselves anti-gun-control and support stricter gun control measures than I, a Berniecrat, do. People who talk about the horrors of open borders, and then when you talk to them they support significantly liberalized immigration law and a path to citizenship. 'Pro-life' supporters who, if presented with the loosest abortion laws in this country, express support for such 'reasonable' measures.
Not to be confused with embarrassed conservatives, who will take all those positions if pressed, but immediately revert once in friendly company. I'm talking about people I've given no hint of my politics to and no leading statements but suss out that they simply have no goddamn clue what they're talking about.
They're the ~17% of the country that's not fascist, but very well may hand over the country to fascists this coming election. And if that happens, they'll genuinely have no fucking clue how fascism took power.
They're not good citizens. They are absolutely supporting fascism in this coming election. But in the long term, they can be saved. In the long-term, they don't need to be a blight on this country's politics.
Here in the UK I sometimes think most people know more about US politics than domestic politics. So, I know how this kind of ignorance can happen.
But then, if you're suggesting talking to people with fascist views, then that's also the point I'm making too. Because that's finding out why they think the way they do and perhaps changing their mind by telling them which things they've been told were wrong all along. My experience has been that the indoctrinated people will listen to what you say, perhaps even agree. Then, in short order revert to the old talking points.
Regarding the "embarrassed" conservatives. I wonder if they're more just conservatives that are following the flow of their fellow conservatives, not really considering the full impact the result may have. You don't need to look further than the running mate, to see how republicans are happy to endorse trump, even though they don't stand for most of what he says. Because winning matters most. I wonder if some conservatives are casting a blind-eye to the fascist undertones, because overall they will otherwise get what they want?
That's what I mean about embarrassed conservatives - they're a different (though also horrifically common) scenario than swing voters. Embarrassed conservatives (ie people with fascist views) are likely, in an anonymous poll, to fully fess up to thinking immigrants are 'poisoning the blood' of the country.
The folks I'm talking about don't hold fascist views, but they have all the 'right' tribalist labels, and no clue what they actually mean in terms of policy proposals. To them, it may as well be saying "I am Pro-Good and Anti-Bad". If you ask them, in an anonymous poll, about a policy position or statement, you'll likely get a response that's not bugfuck insane - but their voting habits are indistinguishable, because they have no clue about the actual state of politics in this country. Or any country. Or of politics in general.
Who did they poll? How was the poll conducted? If it's a phone poll you're going to get old people, no one younger than 40 is going to do a phone poll. And most old people are conservatives. When it comes to polls, it's very easy to manipulate the results either in how it's done or how the results are interpreted.
If only there were some sort of article you could click on and read which would answer these questions for you. Maybe with a link directly to that poll.
Alas...
I wonder how many of those people are children of immigrants.
(although, in a broader view, probably all of them are at least descendants of immigrants)
Donald Trump is the child of an immigrant. His mother was from Scotland.
Of course, that makes her the "right kind" of immigrant.
And then there's two of the mothers of four of his children. Ivana and Melania, both immigrants.
His new bestie, Musk, is 1st generation. As is Thiel. I'd be fine with deporting them though.
I agree. In fact, can we really be sure that any other billionaires might or might not be immigrants? We should probably round them all up just to be safe. We can deport the ones we think are immigrants and worry about the rest later.
And where in time does he draw the line where everyone after it is an immigrant?
I don't know, but the lines are weird as fuck at this point.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2024/10/idaho-state-senator-dan-foreman-native-american-candidate-go-back-where-you-came-from/
Seems like at some point when the immigrants started getting a bit less pale in appearance. I don't think the US has an immigrant problem really. I think it's just plain old fashioned racism dressed up with a fancier word.
In time? In hue, you mean.
Which bloodline would that be? The great Royal bloodline of the Ancient American Empire?
What about all those people saying they're 1/16th Cherokee?
I'm struggling here to avoid being offensive - but really, Americans often appear to me to be averaging subhuman intelligence.
Yesterday I was reading about Latino MAGA's who just assume Trump isn't talking about them...
Using "subhuman" for persons while arguing against eugenics...
You can't make that stuff up
everyone thinks they are the leopard eating faces until a bigger leopard eats their face.
Just a reminder, there were "Jews for Hitler". We can guess what happened to them after hitler rose to power.
They built a space laser?
I'm not saying America is the center of world intellectualism, but you're also getting quite a selection bias since "stupid American" stories are even popular to other Americans.
I thought that same
But actually, after visiting Denver I was super surprised by how friendly and normal people were
I'd easily live there (and no, I'm not a weed smoker. Never tried it, no plans to, do doesn't influence my decision)
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. - George Carlin
Great man, that George Carlin, great man.
This might be a controversial take, but I don't think racist bigotry is an intelligence thing
The study and measure of intelligence itself is a piece of the rationalization of racism.
We owe a lot of our scientific inheritance to genociders and racists and eugenicists - I wouldn't be quick to assume the MAGA base is just a bunch of dimwitted Americans.
When 33% of the population agree that immigrants 'poison the blood' - what's your take on that?
Should we assume that some very well balanced people believe that foreigners have poisonous blood?
My take? That a third of the american population has taken a liking to fascism.
Fascism isn't borne out of stupidity, it's borne out of greed and desperation. Sure, some of those people are probably as dumb as a bag of rocks (any slice of the american population is liable to have a few), but most are likely just your average-intelligence american who has taken their feelings of fear or envy and rationalized them into fascism.
People like Josef Mangele don't become famous because they're dumb - they become famous because they end up wielding their intelligence against humanity. If we were to assume that everyone with those beliefs is dumb, we'd misunderstand what motivates them and we'd waste our time trying to educate them out of bigotry.
Don't 30-40% of any given population support a strong man/fascist anyway?
Well, seeing as 1/3 of Americans are brainwashed by mass media into following whatever hype train is set forth by the rich, I can see that. If their favorite corporate owned and ran "news" told them they didn't need to eat, they would stop eating.
America is home to racist morons, has been since July 4th, 1776. Most of the Founding Fathers owned slaves, and the Senate and Electoral College were established to ease the slave owners/states that their "property" would remain theirs.
We've been a nation of hypocritical xenophobes who taught freedom and liberty while giving none of it to the majority, and every time we try to fix that they double down and make things worse. Not a single time has the US Government (or any government for that matter, but that's more a "whatabout" in this topic) given people what they wanted freely, and peacefully.
If we wanted to get rid of brain dead morons, we would solved it in the Civil War and Reconstitution. Second chance was in the 1960s when we were breaking down the barriers. Instead we still placated to the racists because we didn't want to be too mean to the racist, sexist morons who started the mess in the first place.
Something something and soil something something nazi
I searched for the actual question text and found:
The split was 14% completely agreed and 20% mostly agreed.
I'm not as surprised by the results as the headline would have suggested because of the use of the word illegally. It biases the question negatively.
The 20% who mostly agreed may have agreed with some negative connotation surrounding illegal immigration while ignoring the racism of "poisoning the blood." In other words, if I put myself in the shoes of someone who feels strongly about securing the border, I could understand how those respondents would lean towards agree simply because of the use of the word "illegal."
To further support this interpretation: In the same survey, more than 40% of respondents favor or strongly favor building a wall along the US-Mexico border.
Maybe I'm just optimistic that only around an eighth of the country is completely crazy and that is just a less clickbaity title.
No surprise? People have nuanced views, different opinions, from left to center to right, even hardcore racist ones... and vote Democrats. Just as you could find conservatives who do not agree with the statement.
The statement is so vague and loaded and can be agreed or disagreed with from all kinds of people.
Edit: And yes it's quite ironic(?) that so many people agree with this - in a country where people unironically track that they're 12% German, or 20% Irish, or whatever.
Worth noting that the ancient Greeks believed that democracy is impossible without an ethnically homogeneous population. Otherwise, they believed that there would be too many different competing intentions, that politicians would not have any clear direction and it would be very difficult to get anything important resolved. People love making emotional arguments regarding inclusivity, which is hard to reject without sounding boorish, but there are actual practical concerns with the situation.
Yes, but they also thought that women were inferior to men and slavery was an awesome idea, so maybe they aren't the best people to look back on for opinions.
That's why you consider the reasons presented by those who invented democracy, rather than simply accepting an idea based entirely on who presented it.
You don't have to answer me, but ask yourself if our current societies have too many competing ideals, that it's hard to get anything important done.
They invented direct Athenian democracy.
The U.S. is the first constitutional republic. They are extremely different. This is like saying NASA engineers should consider why the Wright Brothers never left the atmosphere.
America's problems have nothing to do with what the Ancient Greeks believed.
and yet the entire enlightenment political infrastucture we have built is based on their ideas.
Nonsense. The Enlightenment was inspired by many ancient Greek and other philosophers, not just advocates of Athenian democracy.
ok.
I mean, I don't want to be too rude but look at the European democracies who are typically praised in contrast to the U.S. Their populations have been significantly more ethnically homogenous, and only recently have they begun to deal with significant immigrant populations of differently colored peoples. How have they done? Immediate rise of far-right groups and tons of anti-immigrant propoganda.
I'm not claiming the Greeks were right, I think they had a small-minded view of what diversity could bring them, but it is an interesting observation.
On the other hand look at the US, which has been extremely successful as an ethnically diverse republic and in fact wouldn't be nearly as successful without that diversity. America has problems, but none of them are because there are a lot of different people there.
I mean, the massive number of racists who are currently trying to elect a fascist would disagree, and I think many minority groups would disagree that there haven't been problems in the very recent past.
Certainly, the fault lies in the racists, but we can't pretend that is not a problem directly caused by having an ethnically diverse country. It's one that we'll need to find a solution for, because otherwise we'll always have a group who is willing to burn democracy to the ground because they hate people who have a different skin color.
I mean there are problems for minorities, but not for America as a whole I mean.
I think it's debatable they only do it because they hate people with a different skin color. They also hate women and poor people, among other things, so while the rhetoric would be different I don't think being a 100% white country would do much to curb the American far right.
Edit: Auto-Blocking Unreasonable people. I told you, all that they have is emotional responses and think spamming labels is what makes them right. It doesn't. Just makes you a broken record.
I'm going to take a hit but I don't care because I really have been talking to someone about this. Everyone is okay with immigration, until they have faced or been in situations where someone from another country is hired over someone who was naturally born in a country. Everyone is okay with immigration until a migrant is housed over someone who is naturally born.
I have my problems with immigration. I don't necessarily blame the individuals, well, some of them because some of the migrants I've come across have been quite socially unaware and absolutely refuse to like adapt to the atmosphere of the country they migrated to. And it can be frustrating to deal with. It's not entirely their fault that businesses seem to see them as just labor fodder as well as the government sees them as economic fodder.
It's an issue that needs to be discussed and addressed. People don't want to talk about it because they resort to just brandishing people as xenophobic. But I bet you may have a change of mind if you ever come across a couple of the scenarios I've exampled. We have problems in our country when it comes to the homeless, to the veterans and to the poor. I think it is absolutely unfair and unwarranted to prioritize thousands of migrants who come here over all of them.
That is where I think the agreement is coming from. I don't agree with Trump's way of handling it (then again every "solution" he comes up with is incredibly extremist and impossible to pull off, especially if it's coming from him.) I don't agree also to have open borders either.
We need to sit down and analyze the immigration policy closely, that has been broken for years. Why the hell have we not had a single politician yet that is running for presidency that has a solution by now? For christ sake.
If we continue to not fix this problem, America just going to be weighed down the same way Canada got weighed down. The same way some parts of the EU got weighed down. America is just going to follow suit.
But all we can say is "ugh, you so xenophobic" or "ugh, we're all immigrants!".
Come on people, let's be adults and actually address the issue to fix it, huh?
Uh...no, I have no problem with an immigrant getting a job in my country. Or having a place to live.
If you aren't okay with those, then when you say "immigration", you might be thinking of "tourism". If you're not okay with immigrants having a job and a place to live, you're not okay with tourism.
I have every right to be here as you do. Why should you get a job that we both applied for just because you were born here?
I guess they should have had better qualifications.
Are you repeating a JD Vance talking point here? https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jd-vance-debate-immigration-housing-prices-real-estate-federal-reserve/
That country being the "great melting pot" where those cultures get adopted by and integrated into society?
Except all the people loudly talking about it all the time.
Please name the people who want open borders.
You mean why do they not have a solution you'll accept.
Possibly.
Correct, unless you're indigenous.
Really everyone came from somewhere else. If we all go back to where our most distant ancestors came from, that spot in Africa is going to be really crowded.
It's about colonised or coloniser, with drastically different privilege and safety for white folks than someone with melanin. You can play nuance games all you want, in the end this is pitting proles against proles for the sake of empire building. The common person would be much safer, happier and harmonious in the world of Land Back than the Neo-Colonialism we endure.
The Imperial Middle: Why Americans cant think straight about class
I'm willing to concede that while indigenous peoples are technically immigrants, they don't really need to be viewed that way for practical purposes.
Witness this right wing authoritarian whining about getting ratio'd for spouting Moral-Fear-Propaganda openly dehumanizing one group of people under another, crying about it.
Fascism is a virus all of it's own, a weird evil in a bad way, the only kinds of degenerates with the only kind of kinks society must stop. Their bloodlust is the poison. This White-Supermacist, Eugenicist Cancer asks you to turn your neighbor in and destroys every nation that obliges.
So reader, Solidarity Forever. Ill promise you, you promise me, to never sell each other out to these murderous theives. I'll call you on your shit, please call me on mine. We'll work together, and our grass will be the greener in time. ❤️🔥
(Obvs wont be replying, will be mute-block-deleting any interactions from bigots)
Man you're so uneducated, all you know is buzzwords and regurgitated drum lines.
I think you may have missed the point of the article. I don't think it's reasonable to assume democrats don't want to do anything about immigration. Trump and Biden both have basically the same plan to address illegal immigration. Harris' plan is similar to both of theirs as well.
Illegal immigration is not nearly as serious as the average Republican might believe. They add strain to systems already working beyond their limits, but legal or illegal migrant workers aren't displacing citizens at work and aren't leading to the kinds of outcomes Mr. Trump would like his followers to believe. It does happen occasionally, but not enough to justify the alarming hate filled rhetoric.
The problem is that "poisoning the blood" is nakedly racist. The phrase has been used for over 100 years as a dog whistle for white nationalism. How can you have a rational discussion about addressing the real problems that enable illegal immigrants (American businesses hiring them) or the additional strain they put on already over worked and under funded public services if one side is ideologically set on the notion that migrants are evil?
I don't think it's reasonable to believe that democrats don't want to address the border. Safe, legal migration into the United States benefits everyone. If we streamlined the legal immigration process and cracked down hard on businesses and individuals hiring undocumented migrants, that would address the bulk of migrants illegally crossing our borders.
Perhaps we make it a felony with mandatory jail time (per infraction) to hire an undocumented worker or own a company that employs them. Or perhaps we remove the exemptions some types of businesses enjoy from paying minimum wage. One of the reasons businesses hire illegal immigrants in the first place is they are cheaper than American workers because you can pay them less than minimum wage.
Right now there are a lot of businesses that benefit from cheap migrant labor, if we can break that trend, some of those businesses will fold, for sure. But do we want to let failed businesses that can't stay open without breaking the laws of the United States to continue to operate?
Is that what you think really happened? Can you quote this emotionality from my response since I was one of those three?