Michigan governor says not voting for Biden over Gaza war ‘supports second Trump term’
Gretchen Whitmer responds to calls by some Democrats to vote ‘uncommitted’ in Michigan’s primary on Tuesday
Gretchen Whitmer, the Michigan governor, pushed back on calls to not vote for Joe Biden over his handling of the Israel-Gaza conflict, saying on Sunday that could help Trump get re-elected.
“It’s important not to lose sight of the fact that any vote that’s not cast for Joe Biden supports a second Trump term,” she said on Sunday during an interview on CNN’s State of the Union. “A second Trump term would be devastating. Not just on fundamental rights, not just on our democracy here at home, but also when it comes to foreign policy. This was a man who promoted a Muslim ban.”
Whitmer, who is a co-chair of Biden’s 2024 campaign, also said she wasn’t sure what to expect when it came to the protest vote.
Rashida Tlaib, a Democrat who is the only Palestinian-American serving in Congress, urged Democrats last week to vote “uncommitted” in Michigan’s 27 February primary.
Alternate title: Michigan governor explains first past the post voting. People unhappy.
This is a primary. Voting for Biden won't make it less likely that Trump will be elected.
So they're not even the official candidates yet? Just how long is your election cycle?
4 years.
Primaries are rigged there's no real choice
That's not really true. Primaries weren't rigged in the Rupublican primaries in 2016. They voted Trump in despite what the RNC wanted. It was the Dem's primary that was rigged (and turned a bunch of people off of voting in the main election, and it seems those people still haven't learned anything).
Everyone says they didnt want him, but an idiot demagogue is a useful fool.
Altrrnate theory: They didnt know who would beat Hillary, so they played as many candidates as possible until they figured it out.
That's some nice history rewriting but the RNC actually openly loathed Trump until he won the primary - that's when they became bootlickers.
Ah yeah, politicians never lie
Yea, neither Biden nor Trump have the official party endorsement yet. Presidential elections in the US usually last between two and five years depending on how you define them.
General election is in November. Get comfortable, it's gonna be a while.
The news starts talking about the next election the day after the election so our election cycle is permanent at this point.
Biden supports genocide. Centrists happy.
It's a fucking primary.
This is literally the only point in time we can try to drag Biden too the left, will we get him far enough that he stops being pro-genocide? Probably not, dude is all in on Israel and always has been.
But telling people they don't even get to vote "not committed" in a fucking meaningless primary is something so undemocratic if you told me it would happen this primary I'd have bet millions on it being republicans.
But then again, I'd have bet billions on them being the ones to pull delegates for something the state party had zero control over.
Not holding Dems to standards may have already fucked the country for good.
I don’t know why people don’t get this.
Since 2000 progressives have been told to vote for who you want in the primary and then hold your nose in the general.
Now we’re supposed to hold our nose in the primary, too?!
I don’t have enough clothespins for this bullshit.
NH went progressive over party favorite moderate the last two primaries they had that counted...
So this party the DNC said their votes count for nothing, then Biden withdrew and threw money at a write in campaign so the headlines would be "Biden wins even as a write in!"
And not:
"DNC just made NH primary meaningless for something only NH republican officials could change!"
They know this is just a primary.
They're just conservatives deep down and give zero fucks lying and destroying democracy if they win. And it's not enough to win, they demand 100% loyalty.
Just like trumpers.
It's why Dem standards can't just be "better than a Republican".
it's why the democratic party is going to fracture.
Hopely only slightly after the republican party. But both are trying to be the last one standing, so to speak.
The problem is Progressives aren’t offering up any other option. Who am I supposed to vote FOR this time around? “No one” isn’t much of a rallying cry.
Why should they? the DNC will never allow a progressive to be the party candidate. which is why we didn't have bernie in '16... like the VOTERS WANTED.
I would say 2020 was the real stinger... clyburn in south carolina playing king maker.
New Hampshire went for Sanders in 2020, and were punished by losing their primary representation in 2024. South Carolina proved pivotal to the Biden campaign, so they're rewarded by going first.
Yuuuup. There were plenty of better states to choose if they just wanted a less-white state. Georgia is diverse and actually in play, but instead we kick off with a state that's deep red with an ineffectual Democratic party because they voted the way the winners liked.
I cannot remember an election where the incumbent got primaried. And even if we tried we’d be accused of hurting the establishment candidate’s chances in the general.
The Dem olds in Congress were not happy to see AOC stomp on Crowley (10 term incumbent) back in '18 (I think).
You have to know that’s not comparable to a presidential election
And that's why they pulled out all the stops to block Cisneros and support anti-choice NRA stooge Cuellar.
Eric Cantor but that’s not exactly a 1:1 comparison.
"Behave, or else you get the Orange Turd." seems to be the message.
There's nothing in this article that indicates she's talking about the primary vs the general election
True. Which is just bad reporting
Is someone telling you you don't "get" to vote how you want? Telling someone you disagree with their choice or that they're dumb for voting a certain way is not at all stopping that person from voting how they want and not at all undemocratic
I'm not trying to defend the "pro genocide" thing at all, although I'm expecting to be down voted regardless, but...
Isn't support for Israel over Gaza an American / western thing rather than specifically Biden?
Like is it reasonably possible to have a POTUS that wouldn't support Israel?
I guess they could be more overt in their condemnation of Israel's behaviour, but I'm not sure how meaningful that is.
Biden has spent 50 years calling himself a Zionist and saying nothing will ever make him stop supporting Israel.
It's hard to think anyone believes that's normal...
Bernie and every other progressive.
Trump, the one who moved the US embassy would, if anything, support Israel even more aggressively than Biden.
It's so infuriating how difficult it is for people to understand this
There are also a large amount of people who understand this and are intentionally acting as if they don't. This is just this round's version of the 'walk away' people from previous elections.
He's good friends with and likely has donations from Netanyahu. And all Trump and the GOP have to do (as usual) is sit back and watch the left fight and destroy itself while the gop sit back and win.
Democrats are so damn stupid. Not a single one of your candidates and potential presidents is against Israel, none, so why make it an issue for this election?
She's right, and anyone with half a brain would see it as obvious.
Not only that, but it effectively does nothing as Trump will support Israel as well.
It's a primary...
What they're hoping it will do is show the party and Biden that his actions don't follow the value of Dem voters.
The goal is for him to shape up so he doesn't depress turnout and let's trump wins like when he ran against Hillary.
Ignoring the problem and letting the media keep calling Biden "most progressive president yet" will disenfranchise Dems and hurt turnout.
Dem voters aren't Republican voters. Fear isn't enough to motivate them, it works on conservatives because they're statistically likely to have a larger amygdala. Liberals (actual liberals) are more likely to have increased frontal lobe activity that handles empathy and critical thinking.
The main problem is neoliberals are essentially conservatives. They may vote D, but they think like Rs. And without that critical thinking and empathy, they assume everyone else is like them. Like Republicans do.
The result is actual liberals look at both parties, and realize it's not a good thing the same type of people are now running the only two options. Especially when the donations are coming from the same place.
AIPAC for example. They're funding Biden and Republicans who say Trump won, while attacking Dem incumbents who are against genocide.
Because all AIPAC cares about us Israel. They dont give two shits about Biden or America.
And as we've seen with his decision to move the embassy to Jerusalem, his position is even more extreme. Everyone who has paid any attention to his position on such matter should be able to figure out what his response to the current conflict would be. He for sure wouldn't even try to reign Netanyahu in but actively encourage further brutalities. That's exactly the "strong man" bullshit Trump adores.
So even if you really dislike Biden's handling of this whole shit show, you better believe that Trump would be even worse. And that's just the foreign politics part of the Middle East, we all know what harm Trump wants to cause to the US itself.
Moving embassy to Jerusalem was bad because it basically spit in the face of Palestinians - but we are literally supplying bombs that are killing Palestinians right now.
One's a spit in the face. The other is a 2,000lb warhead in the face.
Would Trump have done the same? Probably. But we know for a fact Biden did what he did.
Trump absolutely would support Israel AT LEAST as much as Biden does right now. I mean come on, Israel is killing lots of Muslims, that's something Trump can always get behind.
I used the example of the embassy since it's something previous administrations wouldn't have done as they knew it would only unnecessary put oil into the fire. And Biden damn sure knows this as well. Trump, either didn't care or didn't listen.
if i were a muslim i would not vote for biden. i wouldn't vote for trump either.. but definitely not biden
again. we know with 100% certainty biden supports the genocide. even if trump is 95%, that's still better odds
Then you simply didn't pay attention to Trumps attitude to Muslims in general and advocating war crimes without any impunity. Trump absolutely would be worse than Biden in this situation. He for example for sure wouldn't have made Netanyahu drop the complete blockade of food and water. He would have cheered this cruelty on.
i don't know what trump would have done. neither do you. the guy's a bit of a wild card. for example look at russia he's totally down to just drop the ukraine war. meanwhile biden supports prolonging it however long is necessary
i'm not defending trump i'm just saying if i were a muslim and especially if i were a Palestinian i would never vote for biden. it's unforgivable. i support the muslims in michigan. if the democrats want votes, they need to push policies that the people actually want
they can't just expect people to keep voting for them because of the eternal right-wing boogeyman. because it's getting so bad people are actually starting to wonder if maybe the far-right proto fascist is better and that's a piss poor state of affairs for a democracy to be in
What are you talking about? Trump obviously wouldn't support Ukraine. It's really no secret that he's in Russia's pocket. His attitude towards Muslims also is something he's very open about. Not to mention his love for strong-men wanna be dictators like Netanyahu is well known. To think that he would be better for Palestinians is ridiculous. So no, I'm absolutely certain that Trump would have handled this situation much worse and will handle it worse if he gets into office while it's still raging.
Then these people are fucking stupid and don't realise how much they have to loose living under fascism. Especially if their Muslims living in the US! The Israel Palestinian conflict is one thing, to loose democracy at home is something much worse.
that's what i'm saying. he would drop us's support of the war, likely ending the war sooner. so he's not necessarily a war monger. i don't know for a fact he would support israel's war in gaza. maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't i don't know.
we have already lost democracy if we have no choice but to vote for someone. either way you don't really have a choice. see what i mean? trump and biden are different pathways to the same end game. death of democracy
Well yes, in a conflict where he gets orders from Putin to not help, he of course doesn't go to war. But his general attitude to war really isn't a secret. That dude nearly started a war with Iran in his first term for example.
No! One candidate has already tried to overthrow an election he lost, the other didn't and has been very outspoken for his support of democracy. If that's really your take away from that then I really have no idea what you did in the last decade. You certainly didn't payed attention to what's going on.
it's not because he gets orders from putin. it's because he sees the writing on the wall that the war is over and he's trying to get on the right side of history. the war will inevitably end with russia seizing territory. once that happens he can say "i told you so" and seem like he's a peacemaker.
and he can say "why are we spending hundreds of billions of dollars on ukraine when they are going to lose anyway?" or "why are we spending hundreds of billions of dollars while americans are struggling to make ends meet"? or "why are we spending hundreds of billions of dollars supporting a war that is actively raising inflation across the globe, hurting americans?"
he doesn't actually give a shit one way or the other - trump has no ideals or principles. but he's betting that the public opinion against the war will sour soon. and if you look at the polls, that's what is happening. americans are slowly losing their appetite for the ukraine war (republicans at a faster rate, but we're seeing democrats too get war fatigue)
his anti-war stance is one of political opportunism. other politicians would do the same if they weren't beholden to lockheed martin and friends. trump doesn't give a shit about anyone and is willing to throw anyone under the bus and that works to his advantage
the assassination of Soleimani was honestly criminal and stupid and basically ruined any chances for rapprochement with Iran and to top it off Trump killed the Iran nuclear deal. so yeah, i understand and agree with you here
but compare and contrast that situation with what's going on right now. we're 100x closer to war with Iran than we were under Trump. we've intercepted hundreds of missiles and missiles from iranian backed regimes. americans have already died from these attacks. we had to send two aircraft carriers to the middle east - something we didn't even do during the invasion of Iraq
i'm not denying that he tried to overthrow the election.
but what is the difference to me if I can't vote versus I can only vote for one guy? there's no functional difference. either way, i have no voice. in that case, maybe it's better it be trump because it's more honest. we're becoming an oligarchic dictatorship regardless of who we elect
Not sure if you're just so damn cynical or are knowingly are pushing Russian propaganda.
But damn dude, Trump and quite a few top Republicans is balls deep into Russia's pockets. That's the reason that they suddenly are actively taking Russia's point of view. Something that 20 years ago never would have been possible.
And sorry, but if you think that the US becoming a full fledged theocratic oligarchic dictatorship than what it is right now then you really didn't think through what that would mean to you and those you love. Their plans regarding abortion and pregnancy prevention alone should be more than enough to point you in the right direction.
It effectively proves to Democrats that if they support Genocide like Republicans they will never win.
If Democrats want to bend over backwards to appeal to a small minority of AIPAC voters, they will lose all their other voters.
Oh, it has nothing to do with AIPAC VOTERS. It's ALL about AIPAC DONORS.
Big difference...
It's both. Dems want to appeal to voters that are brainwashed by AIPAC.
There is also a Zionist minority in America that will only vote for a Zionist president and Dems are so afraid to lose them that they will throw away every single moral value they have to appeal to them.
But if the Dems aren't shown that they will lose more voters by kneeling for AIPAC than they will gain, the Dems will not be incentivized to clean up their act. In fact Dems will only become more extreme in their Zionism because they know that people will keep voting for AIPAC anyways.
Biden still has a shot to win voters back by actually managing to get recognition for a Palestinian state implemented. But he's just dancing around that subject as long as possible and it doesn't look like he's serious in any way.
There are more AIPAC dollars than there are AIPAC voters, but then I guess that's always the inherent problem with our political system:
https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/summary?cycle=All&ind=Q05&recipdetail=S
https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2023/12/pro-israel-pacs-poised-to-spend-big-to-unseat-progressive-members-of-congress-in-2024-election-cycle
https://thepoliticswatcher.com/pages/articles/congress/2023/12/7/aipac-donations-congress-members-unveiling-influence
Objectively correct take.
You can validly hate Biden for the handling of Gaza. But not voting for him is just helping the Fascists win.
Swallow your pride. Do your duty at the ballot and then make the real changes by organising and protests.
No. It's not on the voters to show up no matter what. It's on the politicians to be someone we want to vote for. We already did "vote blue no matter who and pressure them for change later." And now we're funding a genocide. That's over. Now it's pressure time.
I will vote for Biden in the General Election, but I will not stop speaking out about the Genocide in Palestine. We can put a stop to this, now. We don't have to wait for the election, we don't want to let Netanyahu handle this situation in the slightest.
You have to put pressure on Biden because it could make a difference. There would be no convincing Trump. Israel has utterly failed this challenge. Netanyahu has proven himself beyond any reasonable doubt to be a criminal.
That’s the joy of continuing with democracy in the US. Biden and ‘the Left’ won’t attempt to curtail your speech or throw you in jail. The other guys… not so much.
biden is a zionist. he is definitely not part of the 'the Left'. at no point in his career has he been a leftist. he is a centrist zionist.
And this is the only correct solution.
You see so many people in this thread essentially equating Trump and Biden because of Gaza, and they keep skirting around “you shouldn’t vote Biden because both sides are the same tee-hee.”
This whole gaza fiasco very well could put trump in the presidential seat again, even though he should be barred as it is stated in the 14th amendment. Yet it doesnt seem to bother biden or the dnc, this is such a clear example of why people think both parties are the same, because if liberals want to be the good guys then they shouldnt be condoning israels mass slaughtering of the people of gaza.
Yeah, from my viewpoint Tlaib and the "uncommitted" campaign are taking the actual steps to try to fix this liability. The voters that need to be convinced just aren't in a position where one more white politician with no credibility tells them they have to. Not voting is the strategically wrong choice, but voters just aren't that objective, and frankly most probably aren't even hearing any of these arguments.
They need to actually change the reality of our support for a genocidal war, not tell people that reality is irrelevant.
Yeah because as a voter we should put principles above everything else and base our decision on single issues... Isn't that similar to what the MAGA crowd is doing?
Sure, the principles are very different. But the outcome is the same: Hurt yourself by ignoring the complexity of a political system and voting against your best interest because you mainly listen to your emotions... I don't get it!
You haven't engaged with a single word from my comment, just repeated the same old "vote" spiel. Your mantra doesn't work. Voters are emotional and tune out people who don't offer anything more to respond to their personal anger than "but it could be worse". You simply aren't going to track down all the disaffected voters and berate them into voting how you think they should objectively vote.
Tlaib and the uncommitted campaign are trying to convince Biden this is a problem that needs addressing. Material change is what can reach the masses, not lectures to political junkies on how the genocide could be worse or how not-voting will get you genocide AND other bad things rather than just genocide.
On the one hand, this is true, you gotta vote for the lesser of two evils.
But also, there are only two candidates.
So now it's this shitty situation where US voters just have to vote Biden no matter what, he can do anything and there will never be consequences electorally. And i really feel like there should be consequences for supporting a genocide.
Yeah, if we had a good process to hold referendums on certain important contentious issues, that would seemingly alleviate some of the problems with the two-party system. And drop the electoral college process entirely
How quickly we forget. Remember Brexit?
Yeah, I do. I had that particular counterfactual in mind when I wrote. It's not like we don't get bad outcomes with representative democracy as well. The stances on reproductive care, marriage equality, and policies on marijuana have traditionally been either contrary to majority view or else hit back and forth as a spotlight issue.
One should not have to say bundle positions on Israel, abortion, guns, and drugs. Voting for the president like getting cable vs satellite. And the electoral college definitely worsens that, and probably the supreme court as well.
Not saying referendums are perfect. Just saying we in the US aren't giving a thoughtful referendums process enough of a chance in my view, and the two-party process is such that one party going off the rails causes the other party to be a forced choice.
As a disclaimer, I'm a progressive liberal and I like Biden, and I think Trump is atrocious and fascist and his inner circle are appalling for continuing to support him.
Think of it this way: Vote for Biden. Not because you support any war, because you support being able to harass the man for another four years. Don't let him leaving office leave you with regrets! Meanwhile, consider also voting specifically against tyranny.
Personally, I see a chance for change with Biden, or at least the foundations for positive change. All I see with Trump are giant steps backwards.
Voting for Biden because forcing him to be president is elder abuse, and he deserves it
This is the best take I've ever heard tbh
he a little confused but he got the spirit
Biden is definitely confused, but he doesn't have the spirit.
He keeps ranting about how he wishes republicans we're more like Nixon, Reagan, and HW Bush...
I know you don't have 50 years of Senate experience, but you understand they weren't great guys with integrity...
Right? You get that right?
Please tell me people under 70 don't think those three were fine now.
I know the Overton window keeps getting dragged right by neoliberals, but have they really convinced people those three had integrity and everything was fine back then?
This comment has a better shot of anything else to get me to vote for him instead of abstaining the presidential and just voting down ballot. And before anyone flips their shit, I don't live in swing state. My vote literally can not matter less.
I refuse to vote for someone who supports genocide. I'm conflicted about it because it helps Trump, but I simply cannot vote for Biden. Gaza is part of it, but he's broken his promises.
He said he would halt the border wall construction and instead expanded it and had a photo-shoot at the border. He used the same exact loopholes Trump did to deny and turn away asylum seekers at the border.
He said he would make the Saudis a pariah state for chopping up a journalist and then he signs billion dollar arms deals.
He makes a big deal out of Russian war crimes when 3x more civilians have died in a few months in Gaza than the entire 2 years since the war started in Ukraine.
He went and pretended like Navanly was a hero. He met with Navanly's family. The guy who organized and marched with neonazis in Moscow and referred to Muslims as "cockroaches" that needed to be exterminated.
It's such a ridiculous level of hypocrisy I cannot tolerate.
She couldn't be more wrong. Not voting for Biden will show him what he could lose in the General. Primaries are the more important than the general in this way.
When every side supports Israel, isn't it basically a non issue? I know you guys love to police the world, but maybe choose your politicians based on national, not global affairs
Our politicians choose us for the most part, not the other way around.
That works if you are France or the UK where the head of government and the head of state are different people.
The threats and pressure are aimed at changing that statement. How Biden reacts right now is very much not a non-issue.
Then run a fucking better candidate. Biden is actively ignoring the will of his constituents. He didn't win because he's likeable or desired, he won because Trump generates negative voter turnout. Imagine if the DNC actually ran someone people were enthusiastic about--they might actually get a fucking landslide.
Voting uncommitted is a fine thing to do during the primary. It shows the party that people are displeased with how the government is handling the Gaza situation.
Sitting out an election in Michigan is a bad idea. If you're in a safe state, go wild. Just not Michigan.
She's not wrong, but I'm not sure this strategy is going to work. Biden is at risk of losing Michigan because of his support of Israel, and I think people are going to be swayed by a, "better than the other guy," argument on that issue. You can argue that economically, even if Biden is not as progressive as you'd like, he will govern in a manner closer to your beliefs than Trump. Trump is even more hostile to the Palestinians than Biden, but if Biden is supplying Israel with unconditional military aid while defunding UNRWA, it will be hard to claim that he's different in any practical way. If the democrats are worried about Michigan, they should be trying to push Biden to do something meaningful, like restoring humanitarian aid to Gaza, not scolding their voters.
At least it's not a sea of [deleted] like reddit lmao
If shes so concerned about people turning on Biden, maybe she needs to head to the oval office and tell him to stop fucking funding and equiping a goddamn genocide.
Cause one thing you forget, Democrats are not cultists. We will not tie ourselves into knots trying to defend your bullshit. We will call out, and criticize you when its appropriate.
and supporting and equiping a fucking genocide is a pretty goddamn appropriate thing to be criticizing Biden on.
Its not on the voters to get over it.
Its on Biden to stop fucking doing it and to tell Israel to fuck off.
Is Israel apartheid and slaughtering the Palestinians really so important that you'd throw away the election for?
Turn it around.
Is being noble on Gaza worth risking Gaza being obliterated by Trump and the GOP?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/we-should-kill-them-all-everybody-in-hamas-gop-lawmaker-tells-pro-palestinian-activist/
Is being noble on Gaza worth risking Gaza being obliterated by Trump and the GOP?
And Ukraine being destroyed by Russia? And women's rights further eroding? And LGBTQ rights further eroding?
Even if you accept the premise that Biden and Trump are equally bad for Gaza, there's so many other issues on the table.
I'm going to ignore the implication that "being noble on Gaza" is actually more risky for him and just assume that's true. What the fuck kind of question is this?? Biden should absolutely change course to being noble on Gaza. Yes it is worth the risk, arguing that he shouldn't take that risk is saying you're okay with continuing to sacrifice Palestinian lives over the coming months if it means a better chance of beating Trump and saving them from a theoretical worse fate.
Sure, there's a chance Biden will lose the election anyway, but I'm sure they're capable of understanding how necessary their sacrifice was. I actually kind of hope that you're one of the people who thinks we all should support Israel and that you're making a bad attempt to play sympathetic here, because this this is an absolutely ludicrous contortion to justify continuing to fund a genocide.
No one makes the decision to continue funding the destruction of a people out of concern for what those people might go through if you don't. Total horseshit.
I've wanted her to be my president since the first time I saw her speak. SOTU response or something iirc?
Except this is about the primary. How is not voting for him in the primary matter? Honestly, the fact that the Democrat party in places like Florida just got rid of the primary so none of the challengers could be voted for is...dumb to me.
I might hate most of the other people running, since they're largely anti-vaccine pseudoscience conspiracy types, but people should still be allowed to vote in the primary.
As an outsider looking in, it feels really odd that this could even be a firm issue for any voter. Like that high horse sailed so long ago, how can you possibly blame the current president for what has been a national policy for 75 years?
Sure, push for a candidate that doesn't support Israel and dissent as much as you can. But every time I read a comment about "Genocide Joe" it screams Russian propaganda farm.
I feel like this is just another division tactic to split the vote to favor Republicans.
I have friends who were rabidly for Democrats and their agenda for decades, decrying single issue conservative voters, now acting the same way toward Biden over Gaza as if he single handedly orchestrated this and didn't inherit years of foreign policy.
I fucking hate what's happening there and don't want to support it in any way, but my vote doesn't change what's already established and the alternative is so much worse.
I keep asking for a viable alternative and all I get is vote third party or stay home which solves exactly nothing.
The genocide will continue until morale improves
Welp... it's not a lie. What a horrible situation to be in. Anyways, it it helps, I find it impossible that trump would support palestine. So it's kind of a useless point atm.
Going against the best wishes for you and your country because you don't agree with foreign policy (which will not change under either governments) might be the absolute stupidest thing I've ever heard.
It's not a real argument, it's really about saying that you won't participate because you don't like the options. Notably, if you go to lemmygrad or lemm.ml, you'll find that people are all over this. They want to use it to cause "empire" collapse.
It is a goddamn primary election and there isn't oppostion to Biden. Anyone voting uncommitted in the primary is having no actual effect on the general election as Biden will be the nominee no matter what the voters express.
Telling the voters they doth protest too much is electorally a shit strategy.
And shit electoral strategies on behalf of the Democratic Party is how we got Trump once and now likely twice.
the democratic party is just the relief valve after the republicans have their way. ratcheting away towards fascism.
...almost as much as Biden helping to fund a genocide on Gaza supports a second Trump term.
I'll still vote for him, cuz lesser evil n' shit, but wagging your finger at voters for drawing the line at genocide is a pretty tone-deaf move.
I mean, it's not drawing the line though. Both candidates are supportive of Israel, but one is going to be catastrophic for the US and plenty of other countries, while one is going to be...fine? Certainly not great, but not a disaster. Anyone saying they won't vote for Biden because supporting Israel is over the line is just giving better odds to the guy who is actively enthusiastic about genocide and they know it deep down. I wish we had a candidate that would tell Netanyahu to get fucked and put money into humanitarian relief for Palestinians instead, but that's not the reality we live in.
I'm with you. But I can't bring myself to blame folks who feel burned out at the options of calm and composed genocide or enthusiastic chaotic genocide.
Like I said, I'm still ultimately going to vote Biden. Lesser evil is lesser. But, fuck dude... I'm so tired of this shit.
And even if we just look at the Israel/Palestine policy, it's clear that Trump is worse than Biden. Not because Biden is doing a good job but because Donald "Kill the familes!" Trump is batshit insane on this topic and would advocate for every brutality he could think of. Biden at least tries to reign in the worst Netanyahu tries to do. For example by making him stop the hunger siege. Trump never would do that.
The entire Democratic Party platform. Shame voters for having virtuous ideals, especially in the face of Republican vice.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Gretchen Whitmer, the Michigan governor, pushed back on calls to not vote for Joe Biden over his handling of the Israel-Gaza conflict, saying on Sunday that could help Trump get re-elected.
“It’s important not to lose sight of the fact that any vote that’s not cast for Joe Biden supports a second Trump term,” she said on Sunday during an interview on CNN’s State of the Union.
Tlaib’s sister, Layla Elabed, is the campaign manager for Listen to Michigan, the group that has been leading the effort to get people to vote uncommitted.
The group has the support of 30 elected officials across south-east Michigan, including Abdullah Hammoud, the mayor of Dearborn, which has a large Arab American population.
While Biden will easily win the Democratic primary there, Michigan is a key swing state in the November general election.
“We have left a very damaging impression based on what has been a wholly inadequate public accounting for how much the president, the administration and the country values the lives of Palestinians.
The original article contains 498 words, the summary contains 171 words. Saved 66%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
Primaries are the place for protest votes. You want to send a message, send it now in the primary.
Come general election, it's time to shut up and protect the country.
protect the
countryempireThis is exactly what Putin wanted when he funded Iran's proxy attack of Israel by Hamas.
While nothing surprises me anymore, you got a source for the Putin funding Iran funding Hamas thing?
It's not some unsolvable conundrum, some Gordeon knot. Biden just has not to support a genocide and these people would support him.
Voting for Biden cause he's least worst fucking sucks. Dems need to do better, and Trump is what happens because they won't.
Dems need to stop shoving candidates down peoples throats -- this is how a lot of people felt with Hillary.
If Biden wins the general, serves at least 2 years, and resigns for health reasons, Kamala will be an encombant in 2028 and 2032. It could well be 2036 before we get another primary.
I really don't see Harris winning in 2028 even as an incumbent, I doubt Trump will be running then if he loses this election so the "vote for anyone but trump" gang won't be there to support the Dems against .
Which party gets the presidency is going to depend less and less on the candidates in coming elections. Demographic shifts are going to push the popular vote further to the Democrats, so what really matters will be the state of Republican voters suppression.
Israel needs to do better. Biden or Trump not being president won’t stop the violence in Gaza, Netanyahu not being Prime Minister will.
Then stop bombing children, it's that fucking simple you fucking ghouls.
Every Election Cycle, vote to keep sky from falling. Before I die, I would like to have a candidate that somewhat aligns with my priorities.
"You have two bad choices and you'll like it" - Gretchen Whitmer, sort of
Super confusing headline. I understood it as Michigan governor says [she's] not voting for Biden over Gaza war [and she] "supports a second Trump term"
I recommend listening to Medhi Hasan debate this exact issue on the most recent episode of the podcast "Pod Save America".
So much better of a discussion than can be had in fediverse comments.
The most powerful thing I took away from it is that there are people in Michigan, right now, who have had literal dozens of family members back in Gaza who are now dead just since Oct 7. That actual, real, current loss of lives is always going to be more powerful than " other guy worse". A lot of them may just not vote instead of casting their votes for their Democratic president who's done less than motherfucking Ronald fucking Reagan did in picking up the fucking phone and calling Netanyahu.
Not just a second Trump term, but a second Trump term and continuation/acceleration of the genocide in Gaza. Not voting and letting Trump win with a razor thin margin in a swing state will not fix the problem. Between the two realistic choices, Biden is infinitely more likely to push Israel for a ceasefire, which is the best chance anybody has to get the situation under control.
It's a primary. If Democratic leadership has moved on from telling people that they have to get behind the nominee in the general election, to now telling people that that can't even vote against the candidate the elites have selected in a primary, they are effectively working for Trump, and tanking the election.
My comment was really more about the general election. The primary is a foregone conclusion. Joe Biden will be the Democratic party nominee. Donald Trump, barring any significant action from the SCOTUS, will be the Republican party nominee. You can vote for whoever you want in a primary. I know I voted for Bernie Sanders in the 2020 primary election, and then I voted for Biden in the general.
I hate how obvious this wedge is being driven mostly by the right, and people can't see it. It's not going to stop after the Primary, unfortunately. That's why we have to fight the narrative now while there's still time.
That's not the subject though. This is about a messaging vote in the primary.
Call me crazy, but fomenting dissent and convincing your base to do anything other than get behind your incumbent candidate is not how you win elections.
This short term protest vote effort in the primary, meaningless on the surface, could have repercussions in the long term by convincing people to not actually turn out on election day if nothing changes.
You are crazy.
Obama's primary against Hillary and Biden was brutal, including dog whistles from both the Clinton and Biden campaigns. Obama won. Hillary's primary against Sanders was absolutely tame by comparison, and she lost. Trump's primary was an absolute shit show of Republican fuckery and general nastiness, and he won. The 2020 Democratic primary was highly contended with Biden barely showing in the first several states, and he won. Trump was handed the encombant nomination with no real dissent and he lost. Are you seeing a pattern?
What you are talking about was reasonably correct in the 90s when corporate media dominated and independent media was in it's infancy. It's not applicable today.
The only incumbent you mentioned in your examples is Trump in 2020, and his defeat there had less to do with him not having serious primary challengers and more to do with the fact that he was coming off of arguably the worst presidential term in US history.
The rest of your examples (Obama, Hillary, Biden, etc.) are non-incumbents, and primaries in those cases are extremely helpful to gauge who the best candidate really is among a field of many qualified ones. That doesn't guarantee victory, especially if the establishment just hands the nom over to whoever they feel like, such as in the case of Clinton 2016, but it's not outrageous to think that if you're party is going to front the same guy as last time and there are no legitimately serious challengers, why bother encouraging people to say the incumbent is bad?
This election is quite unique, as it is literally a do-over of 4 years ago. Both parties could claim that they are running as incumbents. I don't really see how the Republican establishment expect Trump to succeed this year where he failed in 2020 all the while saddled with even more baggage considering Jan 6th and his many, many criminal indictments.
It's always entertaining when someone who provided no support for their position criticizes the references of the opposing position.
The reason for encouraging people to say the incumbent is bad is to encourage the entombment to be something other than bad, or to encourage the party to replace them. This is a one of the rare situations where voters might actually have the leverage to change US policy on a critically important issue. This push is being spearheaded by Palestinian Americans with loved ones back in Palestine. How will you convince them to vote for Biden in the primary, or even the general?
I personally think that Trump has no path to winning the presidency, and might even be replaced by the RNC if he picks up some convictions. My concern is that I think Trump might be the only Republican that Biden can beat.
I'm only criticizing your references because you apparently skipped over the entire first part of my comment that specifically mentioned incumbent candidates and began listing off examples of non-incumbents who do well or poorly based on how contested their primaries are. That's not what we're discussing here.
Realistically, nothing I say will convince them to do anything other than what they feel is right, and that's fine, but if I had to pick one thing to say, it would be:
"If you think things are bad now, they could be so, so much worse."
I think people are losing the forest for the trees with this election.
Let's be clear. There are people for whom beating Trump is not a particularly high priority, and most of them are in positions of power within the DNC. They have demonstrated it over and over, but there is one example that stands far above the rest, and that was moving the North Carolina primary to the front of the schedule.
Biden will not take NC in the primary, whereas New Hampshire is very much a swing state. The DNC probably threw a state away just to make sure that the American people would not get the chance to consider a better Democratic candidate.
As long as the DNC continues to demonstrate that they would prefer Trump to a progressive candidate, progressives are going to resent supporting Democrats. If you want to get off this treadmill of existential dread, figure out how to wrench the party out of their hands. Everything else is just wasted effort because Trump, or the next Trump will win eventually.
It doesn't look like Gaza will survive til election day, so none of this can be put on Trump.
You can't blame Trump for the Gaza Genocide but you cannot claim that Trump will make any positive difference there vs Biden. And Trump WILL make destructive changes to the environment, women's rights, minority rights, trans rights, global warming, existence of democracy and establish a more fascist state. So yeah, I guess one outcome is indistinguishable from the other
Maybe vote uncommitted in primary for pressure since that has literally no effect on the main election?
I was told that if I didn't support Biden sending tanks into Gaza, that I was a tankie.
bravo
I mean she's right. If you register a protest vote against Biden you need to accept the moral liability of helping Trump. There really isn't any additional conversation here. You can write a million words about how you are making the perfect the enemy of the good, and none of it will change the very simple cause and effect of a protest vote.
This is in the primary. Voting uncommitted isn't going to hurt Biden's chance on the general. For that reason, this is one where I support a protest vote as it does nothing to the general in of by itself. If the youth and Muslims actually voted uncommitted, that'd be a good gauge on how much people dislike seeing Israel supported over their action. I would vote uncommitted if I was in Michigan because of Israel's support toward settlers, and lack of belief toward their civilian to military casualty ratio because of the questionable definition of soldier being 18+ males.
To clarify I am explicitly talking about protest votes in the general. The primary would definitely be the right place to register a protest vote.
Probably a late response, but it seems like 16% uncommited vote, but let's move on to the pinned thread.
If we can't even support the candidate of our choice in a fucking primary then democracy is actually dead. Shaming voters in the general is one thing, but doing so in a primary is dickish to the extreme. It's attitudes like this that will actually help Trump. Who the fuck wants to get in line for a party that doesn't give a rat's ass what you think?
What is preventing you from supporting your candidate?
Don't be dense. Nobody is physically (or psychically?) keeping me from supporting anyone. I was clearly responding to the notion that we have some kind of moral responsibility to support the establishment Democratic candidate in, not only the general, but also the primary.
The whole notion that quickly uniting behind a primary candidate is necessary or even helpful in winning general elections is wrong headed. Obama's first primary was far more contentious than McCain's, and Obama won the general. Hillary's successful primary was less contentious than Trump's, and Trump won the general. Biden's primary was extremely contentious while Trump went largely unchallenged, and Biden won.
Contentious primaries put the party's platform in front of voters for tons of free media. They also give even the losing side(s) a chance to have their positions heard, which gives them at least the impression that the party cares what they think.
What damages Democratic candidates is low voter turnout. One thing that absolutely kills voter enthusiasm is the impression that their voice is irrelevant. You are effectively telling them that their voices shouldn't even be used, nevermind listened to. That is what will loose elections.
I don't like our current system but I don't believe she is wrong. We have a two party system. Either the GOP or the DNC candidate will take the electoral college.
I hate that we are still voting against something. The Democrats need to run a candidate that we WANT to vote for (like Obama was imo) but we aren't there in this election so we can either protest and vote 3rd party, vote for Trump, or vote for Biden.
If Joe Biden can't take primary era criticism and use it to reinforce his general election campaign then he is truly unfit to lead. I'm voting for Uygur in the primary. We'll see who's still alive for the general.
Trying to get a progressive agenda by only thinking about the Presidency is like trying to win a game with only hail Marys. We need to focus on smaller races in house and build up from there. It would be a stronger and longer lasting change. Even if you're in an area that doesn't have any competitive progressives running in the primary, you are allowed to volunteer to help progressive candidates in areas that do.
I heard this back in 2008. But the next eight years was nothing but losses, in large part because the national party kept kneecapping grass roots organizations.
From ACORN to Code Pink, left activists were targeted and dismantled from within the liberal party.
By the time Trump won in 2016, Dems had castrated themselves across the entire Midwest and were losing in record numbers.
How do you organize under that kind of leadership?
Florida just recently had a governor race where there was a great new candidate but then the DNC refused to back her and chose a former Republican instead to back... And which point why would anyone pick the former Republican governor when you can just have the current Republican governor and the Democrats lost by a landslide again.
They don't want to win they just want to give rich donors a job or a yes man.
I mean, gun to my head, if my choices are DeSantis or Crist... But that's not great for enthusiasm.
The dirty truth about the modern Democratic Party.
The party steps in to protect centrist incumbents against progressive challengers.
"The Squad" got some concessions from Pelosi at some point, to not have her PAC do that. The more progressives we get the more we have to bargain with.
Ultimately progressives and Democrats aren't the same party, but for the same reason we are stuck with Biden is the same reason they have to play that game.
Didn't stick. The party propped up the anti-choice pro-nra anti-union candidate Henry Cuellar because and only because his opponent was a progressive.
Damn!
I am not surprised I guess.
That's the truth in very stark terms.
Not even remotely. The actual headline:
You win the top spot for “dumbest take on lemmy I've seen so far”. And that includes some shit from lemmygrad and hexbear before I blocked them.
"Vote me. I'm not the biggest shit" is not a good idea.
How is Tlaib going to explain to her constituents that supporting Trump - who pushed the Muslim ban and called them shithole countries - by proxy will help them?
Biden may not have the best foreign policy but it really is a fascist wannabe dictator who will absolutely support Bibi regardless or we can choose Biden who isn't a fascist who at least has shown some pushback.
So lets vote towards the furthering of the mistake of the last nazi war, or contribute to the next one.