Tesla's value plunged nearly $200 billion since mid-July – and the EV maker faces a bumpy road ahead
finance.yahoo.com
Tesla's value plunged nearly $200 billion since mid-July – and the EV maker faces a bumpy road ahead::Tesla shares closed Tuesday at just over $233, well down on their 2023 peak of $291.
maybe they should focus on making a decent product instead of manufacturing bs
Well Musk is spending most of his time breaking Xitter lately so maybe the Tesla guys can get some good stuff done while he's distracted.
Probably not. Tesla is very dysfunctional as an org. He flattened it so much, and hasn’t appointed a real leader, while he’s distracted I bet they’re basically in a holding pattern.
He motivated them by setting insane goals then driving them insanely hard and sleeping in the office and shit.
If he’s not doing that, the company is, pardon the pun, on autopilot. Watch out for stopped emergency vehicles.
he’s been at it for a while, and Tesla hasn’t improved any, so don’t know...
It takes a long time for changes to trickle through the system.
But yeah, it's probably not going to happen.
The products are decent. Just that there are a lot more competitions that make much better cars.
I wouldn’t call a $40,000 car whose panels fly off on the highway, decent
What if that car can drive you straight into a wall with the power of AI?
That does sweeten the pot
I'm sold
Teslas are the most recalled vehicles on the market.
over the course of 30 years*. people rarely keep cars for that long, let alone an EV. by year 10 most EVs will be clapped as fuck you might just have to sell it for scrap metal
fact is Teslas still represent good value if you're just after a base Model Y and 3. they're are OK, average, decent.
fit and finish is far from German counterparts but if you don't care, and don't want a Chinese EV either you're left with Tesla.
Well, I’d say the value of the Tesla isn’t the car at all, it’s in being the first to popularize Evs, the brand they’ve built, and in the recharging network they’ve built.
As far as the cars go theres just too many reported problems. Take the above things away and you’re left with just an ok car. Why would you invest all that money in something that’s just ok, especially when you can go to the nearest competitor who not only has way more money and experience in the industry but can produce a cheaper more reliable product. Not to mention the fact that they have the dealerships across the country to handle their vehicles and perform maintenance.
Where tesla shined really was in how the brand became associated with success and quality, and in how large a recharging network they built. Nobody else has come close to achieving either. With musk acting like a dumbass they’ve lost the it factor. Should have been obvious with the cyber truck. Elon basically acted out that episode of the simpsons where homer bankrupts his brothers car company by designing a hilariously bad car. They do still have the charging network, and I think that value cannot be understated, but in 10 years ev charging will become ubiquitous and that won’t matter.
Tesla was at its peak when musk mostly shut the fuck up and pretended to be the ambitious billionaire genius focused on the betterment of humanity.
Now it’s clear that space Karen was little more than a guy who got extremely lucky in the early dot com days and amassed an insane fortune. Strip elon of his wealth and ask him to do it again and he would never be able to.
It’s sad too, I wanted to get a Tesla but now there’s just no way. Not when Space Karen can just auto install some update that requires I pay a subscription to use the ac. Fuck that shit, too unreliable.
depending on where you live, here in Australia some states have very strong tax incentive. So strong to the point whereby even an Accord or Sonata is priced similarly. For those that do not care about all these dramas or the technicalities of ownership the Model Y and 3 are both really good cars.
i personally wouldn't get one tho, if i had spend so much money i'll probably save a bit more and get a used GR Supra or Civic Type R.
As used cars, they aren’t very attractive for 2 big reasons.
Repair facilities and even just new parts are rare and can take months to book (which is a problem for new teslas as well).
But a bigger problem is that Tesla iterates parts designs, so if you have a used Tesla and the door handle breaks, you might not be able to get the right part to repair it, or you might need to make a series of other changes for it to work.
When you buy a Tesla, your buying a test mule that is a work in progress. That’s why most car companies spend 3+ years developing traditional vehicles before coming to market. And they used decades of institutional experience and known good components instead of attempting to reinvent it all (even the manufacturing process, which Tesla learned hard lessons about early on).
A friend of mine rented a 2023 Tesla recently. He said there was a visible air gap between the trunk lid and the body of the car. That's decent to you?
lol, do you mean panel gaps? that has more to do with manufacturing process. I'm more referring to the features they provide for the price they're selling at. They're decent.
I can assure you, cars can get a lot less decent than Teslas.... Korean cars in the early 2000s for example...
So they have decent features, they're just built like shit. Great selling point.
they have higher than reported number of build failures, such as presence of panel gap but that does not indicate ALL of them come like that.
McLaren and Maseratis spring to mind, and have similar traits. It does not make them shit cars at all.
No one said all of them came like that. Enough of them come like that that it is a widely-reported issue. They're built like shit.
I’ve checked them out in the showroom, the fit and finish when they’re not built like shit is actually alright.
I personally have never ever noticed Teslas which YUUUUUGE panel gaps either. And they are popular where I live.
They are decent cars still like I said. Talking about the base model. You cannot possibly find a better EV or RWD car at that budget where I live.
Even a base C200 or 320i cost a lot more than the base model 3. Like 25-40% as much. If that is not decent I don’t know what is.
The cars they showed at a recent event had loose window trim and doors that didn’t close properly (one back door required a slam to close).
These were teslas that were brought and prepared by a dealer and still shoddy products.
And FYI I drive a Toyota myself, it’s handmade in a special factory and the fit and finish is absolutely horrible.
But somehow within the Toyota and the greater car community people always give it a pass because it’s a ToyOTa
Huh. I drive a Toyota too and it's great. Best car I've ever owned. So I guess both Toyota and Tesla make great cars because of our personal anecdotes, right?
Setting aside anything related to Musk, Tesla really doesn’t seem to be staying competitive.
Cybertruck (and the “indestructible” window press conference) is probably the easiest example. Years of attempted hype that haven’t paid off in a meaningful manner, while rivals have been releasing in-class competition. Anyone can see that’s a problem.
Tesla cars used to be pretty revolutionary, now they’re in an entirely different era that’s filling with exciting EV alternatives around every corner. Yet Tesla style still looks the same. The shoddy construction is still around and becoming more widespread knowledge. They’re failing to attract their target audience due to a long series of missteps. More problems.
Not to mention that Tesla was downright overpriced at its height. It’s a fraction of the volume yet made other automaker valuations look minuscule. The logic for that was never there.
Besides Musk…it’s the fact they are still using the same design from 10+ years ago. When I see a tesla, I can’t tell the difference between the S & 3 or the X & Y. They made one car and scaled it in their software. All 4 cars are due for a redesign and they don’t need to all look identical. And they need to figure out how to actually assemble them without being shit.
Model S3xy? Why Elon, just why...
The model X looks like an inflated model 3 IMO, the first time I saw one IRL it looked kinda hideous
I'm not a car guy. There happened to be a tesla showroom at the mall (wtf?) I was at with some coworkers for lunch, and one of them was dying to look at the new model X, so we made a detour. It was the first tesla I sat in.
I couldn't believe how cheap and tacky it felt. Everything was plasticy, leather felt like pleather. The giant tablet just seemed unnecessary and gaudy.
The tech was cool and all, but I couldn't believe this was what everyone was talking about.
Never mind unnecessary and gaudy, it's dangerous. Pretty much all car functions are on that touchscreen, meaning you have to use it while you drive.
Which functions are on it that you need to drive? The only one I can think of is the climate control, but I just set mine on automatic, or adjust it at a stoplight. It's pretty good.
I feel like the vibe is a reasonably nice car from the 80s that someone put a huge tablet inside. I agree I find it really off putting, but I know people who love it so 🤷♂️
If memory serves, the only reason that they couldn't go for the Model E, is that Ford has/had a trademark for it, so they went with Model 3 instead.
Nothing wrong with that if it’s successful. VW used the same design language for the Beetle/Van/Truck for ages.
Same design language and copy cats are different. I can clearly make the difference of a Jetta/Passat or Civic/Accord. They obviously share a similar design but are definitely their own. Tesla’s on the other hand, I couldn’t tell you the difference of the X or Y. They look identical. Even the sedans look damn near identical. And no other car company keeps the exact same design for 10+ years (besides Toyota and the 4Runner)
Most people can't tell a Macan from a Cayenne or a 911 from a 718, doesn't matter what enthusiasts think, normies are the people who represent the majority and they're buying the cars anyway.
Exactly people say this but then not about Mazda. Every single Mazda has the same design scheme. There's nothing wrong with that, if it works for the company fine, but like, "oh they all look the same" is invalid as a complaint against them.
Tesla has many other things you can diss on them for.
Cybertruck is a symptom of poor leadership. Maybe after it flops, Tesla will clean house.
Musk only owns about 14% of Tesla. The other stockholders should clean house of the board and CEO.
While I agree Cybertruck may have jumped the shark, I recently noticed …. After years of GM saying cylindrical batteries are not practical and pouch batteries are the only way to go, and Ultium is more advanced than anything Tesla has …. They’re redesigning EV models early to switch to cylindrical batteries like Tesla
The only reason GM (and others) tried to tout pouch cells is because there was a complete lack of cylindrical production capacity available. Tesla was using it all.
What are you going to do, say we'd rather use these other batteries but we can't, so here you go?
I am ecstatic that most of the major manufactures have finally decided to transition to prismatic and/or cylindrical.
I wouldn't even be surprised if regulations one day prevent use of pouch cells for automotive purposes.
Give it 5 - 10 years. Tesla will be a company that makes and maintains a charging station network and sells batteries to the other auto makers.
It's becoming increasingly obvious that they can't hack it in an automotive sales industry. Which is fine, frankly. I think battery manufacturing and charging network are pretty complimentary industries and provide a decent revenue stream into the future, License the charging tech to other automakers early and get some vendor lock-in going, and the company could be in it for the long haul.
They might even be able to keep making a couple EVs, to prove new charging or battery tech, much like how Google keeps making Pixel phones to essentially prove and market new Android features.
My limited understanding of the matter is that their batteries are overpriced and nothing special compared to alternatives.
The real game changer that seems to be coming down the pipeline is the solid state battery Toyota has been teasing. If they manage to bring that to market while holding important patents on the technology it's basically game over for other kinds of battery for EVs.
Toyota has been teasing this for years now. It's a bit like fusion energy at this point, always on the brink of a revolution that never comes.
Are you referring to Tesla's 4680's or the cells that Tesla gets from Pansonic?
Re: Panasonic
Tesla's been refining their cells with Panasonic for quite awhile and have done things like substantially reduced the cobalt used compared to others (at least as of couple years ago). I'm not sure what the differences in wh/kg are compared to others today.
Panasonic is also much more efficient at making those cells at scale which gives Tesla an edge on their cost.
Tesla has always made their own batteries (the grouping of the cells). Their battery + BMS on the other hand is substantially better than other manufacturers. They can manufacture the battery much cheaper than others, and the BMS keeps it running smoothly.
For example - The Fords Mach E performance model can't (or couldn't) even do more than a launch or two before having to throttle itself due to heat. They currently have recalls happening due to contactors having problems with heat.
Re: Tesla's 4680 Cells
Right now, they're nothing special from a wh/kg perspective, what they're main goal for them is to be substantially cheaper to manufacture than the cells other manufactures make. If you can make them for 2/3 the cost you'll have huge advantage over everyone else, and then also you don't have to pay the mark up to Panasonic or LG either.
Only time will tell if their chemistry/anode/cathode improvements will make their cells better than what other manufactures are producing now and in the future. Personally, I'd be nervous to get a 1st / 2nd gen version of these cells/batteries while they work things out.
Re: Solid state
If that ever happens and they are cost competitive to produce, then that'll be a big deal ya. What if they aren't cost competitive though?
Will you be willing to pay $10-15k more for the same range but faster charging, higher safety, and more lifecycles?
You're right though, they are the future eventually.
Tesla makes batteries for $80/kwh. Everyone else is paying $120.
Have they even released that damn truck? It’s been years and I haven’t seen one while the s,3,x, and Ys are everywhere when I go to work
Nope. First production one completed in July, nearly four years after the first press release. Supposedly customer deliveries at some point of Q3 2023, which is basically down to a month left.
https://www.notateslaapp.com/news/1519/tesla-officially-completes-first-cybertruck-but-we-ll-have-to-wait-for-first-deliveries
The first truck was also "completed" right before their quarterly earnings, which I'm sure was a coincidence. No other trucks have been publicly shown to be assembled.
Who else has hands free driving on local roads?
Not Tesla, FSD requires hands on at all times while stuff like Supercruise does not.
Supercruise doesn't work on local roads, drive assist does. I can keep my pinky on the wheel and give it the slightest pressure every few minutes when prompted. This is a God send in stop and go city traffic. I used to have super high stress in traffic every day, now I let the Tesla do all the stop and go braking/keeping distance and it's way less stressful
In what world does hands free include keeping your hands on the wheel?
In what world does touching your pinky on a wheel ever minute or more qualify has tightly gripping your hands at 9' and 3'oclock position. I get it you hate elon.me too. I still think the Tesla gives me a driving experience very few if not anyone else can replicate, especially on local roads. No one has been able to dispute me on that besides some dude that quoted the new Mercedes that launched this year. That sounds like Mercedes trying to keep up with tesla, not the reverse
Elon is a douche nozzle, does that make you feel better? Have you ever actually driven a Tesla thru city traffic ?
Hands-free by definition requires no hands. You are using terminology that is incorrect on the internet. Expect to be corrected.
Everything else you replied to me is you being super defensive. I never stated anything else other than what you are taking about is technically not hands-free.
Mercedes for example - and it works better than Tesla's on shitty roads.
Mercedes for example has two cars that just launched FSD this year. Vs Tesla who has 4 cars that can do autopilot for 3 years or more. Again I'm not trying to say Tesla is the best car, I'm trying to say they have differntiated features that few, if not any companies have had over the years, and yea that does not excuse their CEO from being a total douche.
Mercedes for example has two cars that just launched FSD this year on local roads. Vs Tesla who has 4 cars that can do autopilot for 3 years or more on local roads. Again I'm not trying to say Tesla is the best car, I'm trying to say they have differntiated features that few, if not any companies have had over the years, and yea that does not excuse their CEO from being a total douche.
Exactly. So many of the naysayers haven't used fsd first hand, so they don't know how close they are to solving a huge problem. And no one else is really even trying anymore. Ask a graduating senior in IT or robotics where they dream of working and it's Tesla.
If you're using FSD without your hands, you're not doing what you're explicitly supposed to be doing.
So basically you're saying that so many of the naysayers haven't used FSD the wrong (and dangerous) way.
I'm using drive assist without my feet, I can keep my pinky on the wheel and give it the slightest pressure every few minutes when prompted. This is a God send in stop and go city traffic. I used to have super high stress in traffic every day, now I let the Tesla do all the stop and go braking/keeping distance/keeping center and it's way less stressful. I know other manufacturers have drive assist but I've driven my siblings BMWs Mercedes Maseratis Jaguars Land Rovers and (unless you've got a 2024 Mercedes) none of them are as easy to use as Tesla.
I fucking hate Elon musk by the way, and I'm not a Tesla fanboy, they do a lot of anti consumer bullshit I dislike. I just think to over correct and say the cars have nothing better to offer vs competitors is disingenuous
Again, that's not how you're supposed to use it.
Again, that still differentiates this company vs any other car. The entire argument we're having is that they don't do anything different than anyone else.
Such a remarkably overvalued company. I'd be surprised if it's still around in a few decades. Feels like they're the MySpace of today - they're big and have first mover advantage but have nothing interesting down the line and newer companies will and are supplanting it.
I don't disagree with those statements but I'd wait to see what they put out from the Mexican factory considering the labor cost advantage and manufacturing experience they've gained. Beyond that I agree that Korean and Chinese EVs seem more put together and well see if we get more when the us subsidies end.
Nothing interesting? They've got the Cybertruck!
Not good. But interesting.
Good, the MAGA car company should lose value.
The market is finally correcting itself.
This must be the go woke go broke I hear so much about.
Laughs in the biggest, most profitable media empire in the universe
this is a dumb comment. most maga dicks would never drive an EV they're too busy rolling coal. yes the spokesperson for Tesla is a piece of human garbage, but the company is more than him. Tesla has been hugely responsible for the much needed transition to EVs. So hate musk, but i think hating Tesla is a mistake.
I can hate tesla too you know. The car is terrible quality. Just because it is an EV doesn't excuse it from being shitty
Also people seem to have not seen or forgotten about the whole thing with Elon Musk specifically falsifying range numbers on his products with shady ass, basically fraudulent math.
It's good quality until it breaks down.
True of… all things?
not really, plenty of things are shit quality even before they break down.
A lot of the problem with Tesla is Musk though, especially when it comes to the whole FSD and Autopilot thing. Tesla is spreading misleading data and releasing software to the public that they really shouldn't be, and it's Musk that is pushing for that to happen.
True, musk sucks. like I said. the downvotes are hilarious. guess a lot of the maga trolls followed here from reddit too. the more popular it gets the worse it will become I expect.
I agree that Tesla has done a lot to push us towards a more sustainable future with cars, and unfortunately I have to give Musk some credit for that also. The thing is, I don't think you can separate Musk and Tesla like you are trying to.
Without Musk there really isn't a Tesla. Even now they are very tied to him and his way of thinking. Nobody but Musk would ask someone to design the Cyber truck, and nobody but Musk would even call it that, or name the other vehicles so they spell S3XY, or release beta driver assist /self driving software to the public.
I think you can separate them, my comment was responding to the moron calling it the maga car, which is a stupid thing to say. I live in hope musk will eventually be pushed out. he's quite an awful human.
Engineers used to put easter eggs in all sort of things they develop. From references in naming schemes to hidden comments in code. All of it wasn't obvious to anyone not in the know. They are nerds living their nerd dreams.
The problem is that it is Elmo's entire MO to put memes in everything he tells other people to create. He wants to be seen as the memelord. And all of them need to be as obvious as possible so everyone recognizes them, or it would lose its point.
Without Musk, you have 87% of Tesla (when you measure by shares of ownership). I'm surprised other shareholders haven't tried to fire Musk as CEO.
It's not just the share percent, it's the whole company culture, he is the face of Tesla and his crazy thinking and over promising got the company this far. I doubt it would have gotten this far with a more rational and ethical CEO.
He is the ultimate hype man, without him Tesla just wouldn't have the same pull IMO.
I agree with you that's he's a good hype man. But Tesla doesn't need hype any more; they just need to solidify their lead over the EV market. At some point, hype and headline-grabbing turns from a fundraising asset to a corporate liability.
At a $747B market cap, I'd argue Tesla has definitely crossed that line.
Honestly, if Musk poured himself into a new futurist investment, he'd probably do better than he is doing right now... encumbering America's biggest EV manufacturer with stock leverages for a social media platform he took off the public market and completely tanked the valuation for is not a good look.
If you had someone honest at the head of Tesla saying realistic stuff like "we won't have FSD for at least a decade, robotaxis even longer, and it's going to take more than just the cameras we have" and "due to legal liability concerns we are pulling FSD from the market until it's ready" , I don't think you would have nearly that market cap.
Tesla built that market cap off Mr Hypeman, the market cap only begins to make sense if those hype promises are realistic. If Mr Reality takes over Tesla that market cap is going to crash hard, they need Mr Hypeman.
I respectfully disagree that they still need Musk. The man has spent the past two years visibly shirking his own duties as CEO of Tesla while he was busy burning Xwitter down, and his personal brand is getting tarnished daily.
I do agree they need someone a bit more visionary, though. They couldn't just snatch up the CEO of GM or Ford, but I bet you they could find someone out there who can focus on the future.
If they could find a better liar and hype man than musk, that would be a miracle.
No, pretty much no MAGA fans are here. I think that's fair self-evident reading popular comments, you're more likely to run into a fan of Chairman Mao.
You mean for the car industry?
yes
sounds like someone wasted 70k on the MAGA car.
lolz, no. but I feel my comment is still valid.
This is a very reasonable comment, and yet it's downvoted heavily.
What Tesla achieved is good, and will have a place in the history of EVs. Musk being a fucking idiot doesn't change that, it just makes it more obvious that none of the success is due to him he just happens to own the company.
thank you for restoring my faith in humans. I really didn't understand the downvotes tbh.
All g, yeh a lot of that bad behavior from reddit has flowed through to here.
Honestly, tesla would probably do better to fucking fire Musk as CEO. He holds less than 13% of the shares according to a 10-second Google search, so it doesn't seem like he has unassailable control of the company.
If I were any of the other large shareholders I'd be fighting like hell to get a better CEO. Musk has switched from asset to liability.
same, my hope is they'll turf him soon and people can less obliged to hate on Tesla again.
Teslas are boring. There are only 4 of them and they all look the same. (And the cybertruck is an abomination, sorry if you’re going to buy one; good luck surviving all the steel balls people will be throwing at you)
Nobody is going to buy a cyber truck because they will never be mass produced
Or legal to sell in many US states of Europe.
Saving your comment so I can get a good laugh when it is released.
What a stupid take, but par for the r/technology course.
EDIT: The steel ball thing was terrible optics, granted, but that was also, like, the 5th time that ball was thrown at the window. Bullet-proof glass still spiderwebs when hit. Get over it.
No, they dropped steel balls onto separate glass pulled to the side, which didn’t break, then they decided to hurl steel balls at the prototype they had on stage. It broke the glass, twice. It’s on video, y’know?
Do you even know where you are?
Yep, r/tech... er... c/technology. Same thing.
Don't worry Tesla owners, this guy's better than you and all along knew that he should be buying hummers.
This smugness from basement dwellers is flat out embarassing.
"If you don't spend tens of thousands of dollars on a luxury car, you're a smug basement dweller."
Don't own a Tesla, probably never will, just recognize the cringey basement dweller behaviour of everyone in here gleefully pretending like Tesla's are any different just cause they don't like the owner now. It's a bunch of hater energy losers dunking on an easy target that's uncool now. Congrats guys, you did it, you felt superior to others today.
I'm not superior to anyone. I just don't insult people for not owning a car.
I wasn't, and don't own and never have owned a car. I was insulting them for being haters which was made apparent by their hater comments.
If you've never owned a car, maybe you don't know whether or not people are right to hate Teslas. Just a thought.
Not owning a car doesn't mean I don't drive / rent / carshare them, and since when is owning a car a requirement for determining whether or not Teslas are aesthetically pleasing? I have eyes and go outside.
You're 100% right but don't expect r/technology to accept it.
Swing and a miss, sparky. I’ve been driving electric for the last 7 years but have no interest in Tesla for a wide variety of reasons.
Also I literally told you why I don’t like them — there are only 4 of them and they all look the same; do you think maybe the fact that they’ve become so ubiquitous over the last few years and so samey could contribute to changed perceptions of them? What’s new in 2017 is old in 2023.
Just try and be a better person/contributor around here. Smarten up.
Do you see yourself in this video, or do you lack that level of introspection?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpTBQEOb09Y
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=VpTBQEOb09Y
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Oh noooooo. Thanks for that single issue that's entirely subjective.
Meanwhile; they provide the best performance for the price, putting exotics 0-60 to shame. Have the best charging infrastructure. Get great range despite the recent hit pieces. And, for some subjective IMO goodness, are super fucking cool. I love the infotainmentcontrolwhatever way they handle things.
But no, they're just copy/paste pieces of shit. All hail anybody but Elon!
They’re fine cars, they need a refresh is all. You’re reading way too much into this. They’re not copy-paste, they’re ubiquitous and as exciting as a Honda Civic in terms of looks, to me at least. 0-60 time is fun, but so are physical buttons.
You know he’s never going to marry you though, right?
What? I thought you said this WASN'T r/technology?
The only person bringing up Elon Musk is you. The only person offended (apparently) on behalf of Elon Musk is you. Sort yourself out.
I couldn't give a fuck about Musk. He could die tomorrow and I'd say "Good for him." What I think is hilarious is the assumption by you and others in these comments that my drive to correct them stems from some love of the ugy.
Sort yourself out.
Says the guy who a.) brings him up in a discussion that wasn’t about him and b.) doesn’t know where he is. Sure.
I see inferring from context isn't your strong suite.
“I don’t like the cars that much because they’re boring”
You infer —> “You don’t like Elon”
Oh please continue to teach me what I meant by what I said, oh master of inference.
Again, reading comprehension.... get some. My original "All hail anybody but Elon!" was aimed generally at the migrated r/technology chuds.
It was never worth the stupid value it was pumped up to. Why do you think Elon has been dumping so much of it.
Elon is in the dump part of a pump and dump scheme.
Cause he has less business skills than what he lets to believe.
The moment those Chinese EV startups enter the US market, Tesla will be in real trouble if they don't have their product quality image problem fixed by then.
It'll be like Detroit's Big 3 automakers tanking when small fuel efficient Japanese cars landed in the 70s oil crisis.
Assuming those Chinese EV companies don't have their own quality problems...
Chinese EVs absolutely have quality problems, but they are half the price. Tesla's are sold at luxury prices with third rate QA.
Chinese quality has gone up in the last 20 or so years since they transitioned from poor to industrial country. You can't cling to the cheap knockoffs you buy on Aliexpress either.
Yeah China has shown they can make good stuff but their safety ratings are still very below par.
So Tesla's have quality issues I agree with, Elon is an asshole I also agree with. But not all Tesla's are a Plaid. They start at $35k, the Y at 40k. They are most assuredly not luxury vehicles and I'm not sure why people keep thinking this.
That's a starter price, not a finisher price. (Apologies to IASIP.)
That's still not luxury in this market. I priced one myself ended up at 48k. That's not luxury anymore in this market.
But I digress. I'm not a Tesla lover or anything just saying they're not luxury cars. I don't even have an EV yet and don't want a Tesla.
It's more than I'd pay, which also doesn't make them luxury prices.
However, until pretty recently they were much more expensive than they currently are which is why there's a lagging perception of them being luxury.
It certainly isn't the quality.
Tesla is already in trouble.
Hyundai Ioniq 5/6, Kia Ev6.
VW ID line.
Ford F150 Lightning.
Those are the things that will absolutely decimate Tesla's market share. Known brands that can actually put together cars without basic issues like Panel gaps and paint issues.
Ones that reject the absolutely dangerous and moronic UX of putting everything onto a big screen instead of having physical buttons.
They’re already in the states. Example: Volvo / Polestar
Big difference there. Volvo may be owned by a Chinese company but they're made in the US and Europe (except the S90) and are designed by Swedish engineers. That's like called Jaguars and Land Rovers Indian since they're owned by Tata.
The cars that GP are referring to are entirely designed and built in China.
china sucks worse then Tesla. Everything they build is cheap crap that falls apart. Last thing I’d ever do is buy some pos from china
Elon Musk financed about $20bn into the Twitter purchase by selling Tesla stock.
despite the 200b drop in tesla, those 20bn probably still would be worth more than the Twitter stocks he owns now.
Twitter is a money pit circling the drain.
I'm pretty sure that dumpster fire is already part way into the drain but just doesn't know it yet
I dont get how this is news. Teslas market cap was already higher than all the other car makers combined while only producing a fraction of the vehicles. Everyone knew that this stock wasnt a value stock. Where is the news
ELON BAD
Yes, but not sarcastically.
Agreed.
thoughts and prayers
I SAID THOUGHS..... AND.... PRAYERSSSSS!!
Amen 🙏
Ramen you mean? Gotta be what you ment...yep def ramen
Ramen
I'm surprised this isn't just because of there being more competitors to Tesla like rivian. Tbh though I dislike cars, I just have to use them sadly.
I love cars, and I know that goes against what I’m supposed to say here.
It's okay to love cars, people have an issue with the Car being the only viable option in many places.
When I lived in Brno, which is at around 450K population in Czechia, I was going there by car, as in I drove from Slovakia to Brno, parked my car and haven't used it until I was visiting Slovakia again, I only used it when I went for a big shopping to the hypermarket that was at the outskirts of the city.
Did you ever see James May's OG Top Gear piece on Honda's hydrogen car? I think about it a lot. That alternatives to ICE cars is the way to save ICE cars for enthusiasts.
There aren't any. By volume Tesla is still the biggest EV maker by far. The competition is nowhere close to catching up. If they screw up the launch of the Cybertruck, they'll really be in trouble, though. Also, the valuation is to a large degree based on the promise of full self driving. That seems to be an increasingly distant prospect, though.
But Telsa’s market share has dropped from 79% to 62.4% in 2 years.
Things are changing fast.
No company will maintain this kind of market share forever. Over 60% ist still impressive and shows how pathetic the EV efforts of the incumbents have been so far.
key words being "so far", Tesla is going to be blown the fuck out of water by what traditional Automakers are starting to offer.
I'm sure too that there are a lot of prospective EV buyers that are waiting on the sidelines until a more reputable brand has something they like. (I'm one of these people.)
Same here, my civic is gonna be the last gas vehicle I own. Next car is all electric.
This is exactly right, the big traditional auto makers were watching tesla,using them as a research experiment, and now are starting to build out their own EVs. Once it becomes viable for these automakers to produce many modules we will see lots of competition in the market, tesla will be completely overrun. There's no way tesla can keep up with production powerhouses like Ford, and Toyota.
Honestly, as long as Tesla maintains its supercharger network, it will continue to blow its competition out of the water. I say this as someone who got a Korean EV instead of a Tesla.
Electrify America DCFC stations have been slipping in quality quite noticeably, just in the past year. EVgo is still catching up in the DCFC world, with a lot more slow 50 kW cabinets than genuinely fast 150+ kW chargers. Non-Tesla cars using the supercharger Magic Dock often aren't charging as fast as a Tesla, likely due to the difference in electronics.
I think you have to be the sort of person who doesn't mind tinkering a bit and putting in planning and effort to thrive in a non-Tesla, unless you simply never plan to road trip far enough to need DC fast charging.
So a lemmy user will probably be fine. The general public might do better with a Tesla for now.
EU says hi with our regulations mandating Tesla to make their chargers inter-operable with other brands.
Gods, I love the EU.
It may not be perfect, and has a lot of improvements to make.
But damn does it actually work for the population instead of the corporations.
Can you please accept the USA into your pleasant union?
I feel like this is inevitable. We don't have to try and find the station that has the right nozzle to pump gas in a Ford. Likewise, vehicle charging stations should have standard plugs. It just doesn't make sense the other way around.
I thought I read Tesla's plug was going to maybe the standard, but maybe I'm misremembering.
The only issue I've heard with NACS is that the 800V battery auto makers aren't convinced it's as capable as CCS of supporting the higher voltage for that generation of EV battery. Hopefully they work it out soon.
Yeah, but the silly Tech Startup kind of market valuation with the associated crazy P/Es (justified by "we will take over the whole industry" kind of justification) that made them more valueable than all US automakers combined (not just the EV auto-segment, everything) is dissapearing.
Their valuation reflecting the size of their market share (in the entire auto-market, not just EVs which are still a minority of sales) and growth direction (growing mainly due to the EV segment growing and don't seem to be in line to dominate the whole auto-market as EVs take over) means a massive fall from the fantasy "we'll take over the world" valuations.
Mind you, it's happenning more generally in the whole Tech segment as the end of free money which was used in leveraged stock investment is wiping out all the investment strategies based on wild and fantastical claims of "future prospects" and on finding greater suckers.
It's probably not even a fall due any worst numbers or concrete prospects for Tesla: the collapse of the massive stock price premiums (judging by the P/Es in Tech vs those in the wider market) for "future prospects" in the whole of the Tech industry, would definitelly pull Tesla's stock price down hard because Elon's main business "strategy" has always been to frame his ventures as Edgy Tech in order to reap such premiums and he definitelly went hard on it with Tesla.
Looking at Tesla as just a car manufacturer ist short sighted. The energy products also have huge growth potential. And whoever cracks FSD first will basically own the world. I used to be confident that that will be Tesla. But now I'm a lot less optimistic for the sector as a whole.
Good luck with Tesla cracking full self driving without LIDAR.
I believed in Tesla's FSD until they decided to go visual cameras only. Now I'm convinced they squandered their decade-long lead in the market on a technologically inferior strategy.
Hasn't the F-150 has already preemptively destroyed the Cybertruck? I suppose most people driving pickups don't actually need a pickup's functionality. They're just told they need a pickup so that's what they buy.
I see more F150 Lightning trucks than I do model 3 cars, and this is in a red state full of people who are scared of electric vehicles.
lol as if that hideous pos truck is going to save them.
There are, plenty of Chinese EV companies. One in particular sells by volume way more cars than Tesla worldwide. It just doesn't sell to the US yet.
No Chinese EV company sells more BEV globally than Tesla.
To get the advertised numbers that are higher than Tesla it includes plug in hybrids.
Edit: Until Tesla releases their Gen 3 platform, BYD may pass them in 2024 though.
Maybe anecdotal but I bought a Kia EV6 over a Tesla because of Musk and CarPlay support. I know I can’t be the only one that took that into consideration.
There was a time when I wanted a Tesla, before Musk went altright...
They went to the stock chart, picked the latest peak, and wrote the article of doom. It's down 20% a year ago, but up 20% for the last 6 months, and up 119% YTD.
Not that Tesla doesn't have its ills or seems to be stagnating, but picking points in a chart is a feeble argument.
That 119% is based on the lower peak you cherry picked, you just did exactly what you complained the article did.
No… TSLA was at 108.10 on 1/3. TSLA closed today at 236.86.
So from the beginning of the year to today (meaning year to date), the stock price is up by 119%. That’s not an arbitrary measurement. YTD is used all the time.
And so is using the value at the same date last year. Both are really commonly used but display a really different picture.
Cherry picking is not even about if it's commonly used or not, it's about using a specific data point to convey the message you want to.
A random time at a one year point isn’t commonly used. You compare starts and finishes of quarters YOY, not a random Tuesday YOY
1 year charts are really common and use the first/last comparison as well as the 52 weeks range.
YTD is a pretty common way to look at stocks and isn’t really cherry picking
Maybe the investors should all vote on kicking Elon out of the company.
It would require 89.5% of outside investors to vote against him.
Only congress has an approval rating of 9.5 or lower.
How did you come up with that number? Seems high.
https://www.thestreet.com/investing/stocks/how-elon-musk-controls-tesla-with-only-a-minority-stake-14564491
With how their stock is losing value due to Elon and the reputation he puts on Tesla's products, that wouldn't be very hard I would think.
It’s over double what it was at the beginning for the year. How is it losing value?
So... What the duck is the article saying then?
Same as every other article about tesla.
What you want to hear so you click and give them revenue.
To put this in perspective, Tesla's stock price has still more than doubled since the beginning of the year. They're doing just fine.
The past few weeks have been rough across the market. I suspect the reemergence of COVID has played a factor.
How about since their ATH?
Oh... It's at a 43% bargain.
52 weeks high? Yep, still a bargain!
Nah, they're not doing fine.
Anyone who actually follows the market knows it doesn’t follow logic and doesn’t actually represent the health of the company or the economy.
Apparently not since the big investors are getting out/reducing investment.
I see so much hate toward Tesla in this post and I assume it's mostly because of Musk.
But at the end of the day they are still the ones selling the most EV which I still believe is a good thing.
I'd rather people buy an asshole's EV than another polluting pick-up truck tbh. (I know EV are also creating pollution, no need to point this out ty).
The vast majority of EVs I see in the street of my french city are Tesla's. And I see a bit more everyday. And no matter how much I despise Musk, I still appreciate the fact that tesla is helping us move forward from combustion engines.
I don't really care if someone buys a Tesla just to show off. It's one less combustion engine on the road.
So? Left pollutes the air, right doesn't, hence right is undeniably better and completely unrelated to the fact that public transport could be much improved almost everywhere in the word. EV buses are also better than diesel ones, you know...
They are better in the long run when combustion engines have reached their end of life and needs to be changed for something. But replacing a combustion engine solely to get an EV is a waste of energy and material. EVs are heavier and require energy to move, usually a single occupant. Tire wear is also responsible for pollutants in the air and in the water, and because EVs are heavier, they do that faster.
Parking lots generate heat islands, etc.. Buying a new car is inherently bad for the environment. We need more traditional means of transit and much much more active transit plans, not more cars!
WE CAN'T BUY OUR WAY OUT OF THIS WITH NEW GADGETS AND TECHNOLOGY.
Yes, literally everything does. That's physics.
Tires made from natural rubber exist. Less wearing tires are also a thing but those are less "sporty". Tire wear can be reduced by driving more smoothly which is something governments can mandate to tweak driving aids accordingly (basically no hard acceleration). Overall EVs are better for the environment than ICE cars.
I already wrote "public transport could be much improved almost everywhere in the word", so don't preach to me about what I agree with.
Fuck that I want a fast Tesla.
Ask me how I know we're not going to reach any climate change goals.
I realize I'm saying this in a technology community but I've (we've) been promised self driving cars for years and so far it's only the same promise repeated year after year. Same for recycling. We can't just recycle everything or wait for a miracle plastic eating bacteria created by technology, we have to consume less.
"Over 10 Percent of Tesla Model S EVs Fail Germany’s Strict Inspection After 3 Years. It’s actual hard data on Tesla’s quality issues as seen in the wild." https://www.thedrive.com/news/44068/over-10-percent-of-tesla-model-s-evs-fail-germanys-strict-inspection-after-3-years
Tesla deserves credit for opening the door on EVs, but these days something like a Hyundai Ionic / Kia EV just makes more sense when you don't want to buy expensive trash.
Teslas just aren't great EVs compared to other brands. The reason they are popular is because of marketing.
Give me a Renault EV any day.
Aren't great how? They have some of the most efficient cars, with high charging speeds, and easily the best charging network.
As far as EVs go, they're fantastic. Said as someone who has owned multiple EVs from different brands.
The charging network argument is getting less important in densely populated Europe, and at least here in the Netherlands. For fast charging I usually charge at Shell Recharge because it's cheap with my card (for my boss, but small company so I try). Otherwise there's always a Fastned, Ionity or other party. And there are so many destination chargers that I don't really hesitate to drive anywhere. And anyway you can charge at Tesla too if there is availability I think, though for the reasons stated above I haven't needed to.
And now other brands are coming out with loads of relatively affordable 100-150kwh+ options. At that point a cross continent vacation is still a bit of a hassle, but for daily use that's more than enough since you mostly charge at home or at a destination anyway.
They need to ditch Musk.. he's toxic to the brand now.
And fix their quality, and upgrade their interior to have buttons, as well as be somewhat nicer than a Toyota for the price they're asking.
The board is composed of close family and friends. They are not going to ditch Musk.
tesla's are shit cars and cars are fuckn awful for the environment so its the creme dela creme of a shit stain. some people actually think they're doing the environment a good thing buying a new car instead of demanding public transportation/or at least buy something used to literally stop killing the earth.
like seriously you think you're doing something to help the environment by buying a new car from a elon fucken musk? like you do realise tesla lobbys against public transporation? You know something that would actually help the environment.
like he's literally a car salesman and you dupes were suckered into it like a fucken simpsons monorail
Where I live, no amount of anything is going to get me away from a car. Even if I had a billion dollars to invest, I couldn't get rid of the need for a car, for at least 10 years. It's a nice position to take, but completely devoid from reality.
I agree in regards to public transport in cities of a resonable size and between them. Outside bigger cities, it simply isn't a workable solution. Fact is that a lot of our modern society is built around cars. It's not easy to change that.
BEV's will certainly not save the world from climate change, but they are a lot better than ICE vehicles and since we aren't getting rid of vehicles, it's a lot better if they are BEV's. Hate Elon Musk as much as you like (I likely wouldn't disagree with you), but you can't ignore that Tesla arguably has pushed forward the transition to BEV's.
Who would have thought your brand would tank if you go full send on being a absolute douche bag. Almost like there is consequences for you actions... Something these ultra rich assholes never face.
Still up 1,000% over 5 years...plenty of room to fall
200 b-b-b-b-billion…!
When are they going to kick Elon out? How much money do they have to lose before this happens?
Tesla gets more popular each time the name gets mentioned, their market is now people who buy the cars because they are popular and see them around. Remove their ads, stop giving them visibility, stop fueling the brand
Tesla gets less popular each time Elon Musk opens his dumb, reactionary mouth.
I'm frustrated to constantly see that walking insult to the very concept of meritocracy so often, but my suffering is eased by the knowledge that he's the greatest argument against himself, so I figure that the more of a voice he has, the more people he'll drive away, and the faster he'll be relegated to irrelevancy.
No, each time Tesla makes the front news they become more popular not less popular
Gonna go with Hitchen's razor on this one bud.
Huh? This article is an example of exactly the opposite thing happening.
Popularity doesn't mean that they are good just that they are popular. Could you name 2 other brands that make EV cars? I guess not and even if you could the average person couldn't because Tesla gets all the popularity
Nissan, Rivian, Ford. Off the top of my head, these 3 all have pure EV models.
Most of the major manufacturers have EV or hybrid cars now lol Tesla is falling out of the market. Existing manufacturers have now learned how to do the EV part, meanwhile Tesla never really learned how to do the car part properly.
Tesla is still kind of the iPhone of the manufacturers, its brand has more weight in that regard, however with cars being so expensive people are much more concerned with value for money and long term viability - Tesla is establishing a reputation for being poor in terms of repair and maintenance costs, as well as having worse reliability and not as nice a fit and finish.
Oh just like apple, the biggest company in the world
Yes because disposable phones and cars are the same category of product, with the exact same expectations of maintenance and longevity in their manufacture. 🙄
This is why I would never buy a car from a "tech" or even a wannabe tech company like Tesla. They want to graft the lowered expectations that you have for consumer grade electronics and free to pay software onto the auto sector where they'll get lots of people killed or ruin their lives.
I definitely don't want my car to be more like my junky ass phones, smart TVs, or bug laden "as a service" software. I cannot have to restart my car daily while I'm using it. The same standards just do not apply to cars and I'll never buy a car from a manufacturer who thinks they should.
Apple have decent reliability and stylish fit and finish. If you compare Tesla with the major manufacturers, even if you're not getting full EV the quality of the vehicle is much better with the other manufacturers.
A phone or computer is a small fraction of the cost of a vehicle, and vehicles have ongoing costs to be considered. When people do this, which happens more often with cars than with small devices, Tesla comes off worse. While Tesla does have a bit of an iPhone persona, that isn't worth as much in the car market.
So much reliability for the pioneers of "you can't fix it your own"