Medical freedom vs. public health: Should fluoride be in our drinking water?
Misinformation campaigns increasingly target the cavity-fighting mineral, prompting communities to reverse mandates. Dentists are enraged. Parents are caught in the middle.
The culture wars have a new target: your teeth.
Communities across the U.S. are ending public water fluoridation programs, often spurred by groups that insist that people should decide whether they want the mineral — long proven to fight cavities — added to their water supplies.
The push to flush it from water systems seems to be increasingly fueled by pandemic-related mistrust of government oversteps and misleading claims, experts say, that fluoride is harmful.
“The anti-fluoridation movement gained steam with Covid,” said Dr. Meg Lochary, a pediatric dentist in Union County, North Carolina. “We’ve seen an increase of people who either don’t want fluoride or are skeptical about it.”
There should be no question about the dental benefits of fluoride, Lochary and other experts say. Major public health groups, including the American Dental Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, support the use of fluoridated water. All cite studies that show it reduces tooth decay by 25%.
"Medical freedom", the rallying cry for all kinds of grifters spreading disinformation and wanting to roll back the progress made in public health.
And they don't seem to like the fact that they have the freedom to filter the fluoride back out of the water.
medical freedom for me, but not for thee who want no more penis.
The thing that seriously hurts those anti-fluoridation nuts is that fluoride can naturally be in water supplies and there are water supplies with higher PPM fluoride amounts than municipalities that add them in the U.S., but there don't appear to be any increased health issues.
Not that such people generally care.
As I said to a friend years ago: show me one case of fluoride poisoning....just one and I'll believe you that it's dangerous.
He couldn't. End of discussion.
Children can theoretically get fluorosis in their teeth if they chug mouthwash, but it’s a pretty uncommon thing to do.
But... but... freedom!
Found this through a quick internet search if you’re interested.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199401133300203
Internets sleuthing points to you!
A massive accidental overdose (150x) in a water system, leading to acute illness and one death, for those interested.
Potential Role of Fluoride in the Etiopathogenesis of Alzheimer’s Disease
Aluminium and fluoride in drinking water in relation to later dementia risk
We evolved to get our nutrients from natural sources, some of those sources water … and we are filtering a lot of it out arbitrarily then being afraid to put it back.
There was an argument made a while back that filtering the lithium out of our water is messing with folks too.
So we took the lead out of the air and that made people less crazy, but we also took the lithium out of the water and that made people more crazy.
Hooray us.
To be fair we were putting the lead into the air in the first place.
Good luck getting the powers that be to start lithidating water.
That's actually how we discovered that fluoride in public drinking water is good for your teeth. Colorado Springs had natural fluoride in their drinking water and their rate of cavities was way lower than the national average, so some dentists searched around to figure out the cause.
For once, the answer to a question posed in the headline is obviously yes.
yeah. Im happily surprised the article itself was not about the conspiracy nonsense.
It's still platforming the conspiracy though and bringing it to more people's attention.
I don't think bringing attention to conspiracy theories as conspiracy theories is bad. If anything its a good thing. I mean if it was the about the lizard aliens or flat earthers it would be the same.
I'm not so sure about that after the last 8-9 years of political discourse in the US. You assume bringing light to them means people will see how ridiculous they are, but in reality they just bring the conspiracy into the forefront, where people then take sides and dig their heels in.
Trump getting a ton of coverage as the laughing stock candidate leading up to the 2016 election gave him the edge he needed to win while the rest of us thought the coverage would lead to a landslide victory for his opponent.
the other side of the coin is then its the "truth" mainstream media is hiding. ¯_ (ツ)_/¯
They have their freedom, they are free to do whatever they want to filter their own drinking water. They're free to buy or produce distilled water for all their consumption. They're free to only ever drink beer. But the drinking water provided as a public good should be maintained for the good of the public, and when the studies are pretty clear that fluoridated water fights tooth decay, then fluoridated water it is.
Hear hear! Or is it: here here! Or may I’ll stick with: preach, brother!
Hey, a article that bucks Betteridge's Law.
Of course there's no question, yes, and Republicans and communities should be ashamed at being this stupid to cater to such a dumb, ridiculous, and small group of idiots and are going to cost everyone more in dental insurance to socialize the cost of their stupidity.
So we've circled back to to water/fluoride water conspiracies again?
History, doomed to repeat, before our very eyes once more..
Can always rely on the classics to stir up the rubes. A new sucker born every minute.
I'm very much on the pro-flouride but it came up in a conversation with my coworker who won't drink tap water.
I said that in a country without universal healthcare, fluoride is free dental care. He said he agreed about the benefit to teeth but his concern was with what it might do to your body. He's a health nut but not a conspiracy theories and I was really thrown off and didn't have a counterpoint.
I just assumed it was fine because I knew fluoride is often found in water naturally...but...can someone with more knowledge tell me how they would have replied? I don't like speaking on things I can't back up with data so I just let it go
If the stupid motherfucker brushes his teeth twice daily, he's already introducing loads more fluoride to his body than any of the trace amounts they add into the public water system, which is still standards of deviation less than anything that would introduce fluorosis of childrens' teeth (since that's not possible for adults with developed teeth), let alone get to a level of toxicity for an adult.
Now, if he regularly consumes full tubes of toothpaste as a health supplement, then maybe that's a reason to be concerned about fluoride.
All right settle down, he's not a stupid motherfucker. He isn't advocating to remove it from tap water, he was just saying why HE doesn't drink tap. He didn't try to pursuade me.
Perhaps he's misguided on that but he is not the person you're probably picturing.
My friend is a doctor and he also doesn't drink tap but for him it's the other contaminates, not flouride
As someone who works directly with water treatment systems, at best he's an ignorant motherfucker. But good news: ignorance can be fixed.
Ignorant, sure, but he's not stupid. Flouride in water is not for people like him who already take great care of their teeth - it's for people who don't.
It's not stupid to avoid consuming something that doesn't benefit you. Like I know lithium is used safely to treat bipolar but I don't have bipolar so I wouldn't be stupid for wanting it filtered out. Like I said, he doesn't advocate for its removal - he just doesn't want to drink it himself
You ever hear the joke about an American tourist only drinking alcohol on a trip to Mexico, because you can't trust the water, and then someone asking them where they got their ice cubes?
On the other hand, at least back when I was there as an American teenager in the 90s, avoiding the water in Mexico was a good plan.
Parents: It's okay to drink the water in this town, we drove past a water treatment plant.
Me: Absolutely no way.
Guess who didn't regret saying "absolutely no way?"
No but that's pretty good
Well, the thing about your friend is that even if he were only drinking boiled well water or whatever, he's still consuming plenty of the metaphorical ice cubes.
I'd say that's the only real point the anti-flouridation crowd has, really. Even if they want to opt out, they can't. Even if their local water utility stops flouridation, anything shipped in will still have it, be it bottled water, frozen meals, anything that uses tap water in production, really.
The alcohol kills the microbes in the melting ice cubes. So it’s not a problem. Also, if you drink the kind of alcoholic beverages that require ice cubes you probably deserve the shits.
Yes he is. If you're unironically wary of fluoride you're a stupid motherfucker
I would've agreed with this a few years ago, but when you realize things can have subtle effects on our body that aren't easy to measure or readily apparent, you shouldn't fully trust something just because studies say it's safe. A study can't really show that "50 years of repeated exposure caused slightly more exhaustion," for example.
However, we DO know tooth decay is a major health risk for our whole bodies. Avoiding a maybe possibly slightly harmful chemical isn't stupid, but avoiding something that prevents known and documented dental harm and the effects that has on your entire body, that's just letting fear override rational thinking.
Ok buddy
There is non fluoridated toothpaste. Not that I would use it but it does exist.
Consider he might use unfluoridated toothpaste?
Toxicity does exist and is studied: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5805681/
You would kill yourself drinking too much water long before you'd have to worry about fluoride toxicity in the US. Part of our water treatment protocols also include reducing fluoride levels when they're naturally too high.
Dude, that's for the odds someone might have hypothyroidism, not at all related to toxicity.
And as noted by the authors:
"Hence, the application of standard household water purification (such as reversed osmosis, electro dialysis, activated carbon filter, and other adsorption/ion-exchange methods) is recommended for patients with hypothyroidism since they have a higher consumption of drinking water. The purification systems can help remove fluoride that interferes with thyroid functions."
So, if you have a family history of hypothyroidism, and you care at all about trying to avoid this incredibly common and easily treatable issue; use a water filter. It probably won't help since family history and regular exercise are much more highly correlated with the incidence of hypothyroidism, but sure, why not.
Also, and this is fun, they conveniently ignore the fact that the people drinking the most water (5+ cups group) have a lower adjusted-odds-ratio (OR) of hypothyroidism.
How about the part where the level of fluoride in the water being in the higher end of the spectrum (0.3-0.5 mg/L) gives you a *checks notes* oh yeah, 3.4% higher incidence rate of hypothyroidism. Right.
And apparently even flourosis is only a cosmetic ...illness? Honestly if Americans weren't so obsessed with the cosmetics of teeth they might not even really notice. Like to the extent that people will strip their enamel in an attempt to whiten them. Even I had to look up what it was.
Flouride helps prevent tooth decay. Tooth decay is painful and can lead to much more serious condition...it's not just fluorosis it protects against.Misinterpreted their comment
...the flourosis is caused by too much flouride. I'm saying people are worried about the side effects of too much flouride when they're pretty much entirely cosmetic anyway. If you're gonna "um akshully" on the internet at least Google it first.
Ya know, sometimes people misread or misinrerpret comments and you don't need to be a dick about it
It has cosmetic effects but can also have some more serious effect, like weaker bones, neurological disorder, rupture of the stomach lining or ossified ligaments.
wikipedia - Skeletal fluorosis
I'm having thyroid problems, and in trying to research iodine, I have found that fluoride can have a negative impact on thyroid function. This link is the best I can do on the subject, given that I'm not sure how to find much trustworthy information. It says that as long as iodine intake is sufficient, the fluoride shouldn't be a problem. But I'm finding conflicting info on what constitutes sufficient iodine intake.
If you consume any iodized salt you should be good on that, unless you have a medical condition that prevents your body from absorbing it properly. In fact people don't really get goiters anymore since the introduction of iodized salt which was done to prevent said goiters(a goiter is a swollen thyroid from lack of iodine intake iirc).
I was not using iodized salt at all. I think since "elevated" cooking has become so popular, I can't be the only one who was eschewing it (Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat straight up recommends avoiding it). I also don't eat much seafood. When I was diagnosed hypothyroid 25 years ago, I was told I had a goiter. And not told much else.
I'm just an internet rando, but I'd definitely recommend talking to your doctor about iodized salt intake or alternatives. Iodine was added to salt when they figured out people living in middle America away from the shorelines had severe iodine deficiencies and goiters were very common. That's all I know about it. I just like weird history tidbits like that
Interesting, thanks for the link! I figured there had to be something to it because he's a really smart guy and not in any way conspiratorial. His teeth are also in great shape so his way of living doesn't appear to be hurting anyone.
For the record, he was not preaching. I was just filling up from the kitchen sink while he used the filtered water thingy so it came up. He was talking only about himself when he expressed his concern
ah sick, as someone with vitiligo, this is yet another thing i should put on the extremely metaphorical back burner here.
(the partial joke here is that people with vitiligo have increased chances of having thyroidal issues due to the immune system or whatever the fuck, health is fun.)
Mercury is naturally occurring in water as well. That's not really a guide to go by.
idk probably maybe tell him to never put anything into his mouth that isn't IMMEDIATELY sterilized, before, during and after the process of entering your mouth for fear of possible contaminants getting into your body.
I know you're being sarcastic but I at least appreciate that you actually answered my question unlike the other replies.
im not being sarcastic tbh. If you're that concerned about something like fluoride in the water, you best be sure you never accidentally touch the ground outside, and then put your hand near your mouth.
There are so many more significant things to worry about, even being near someone who is sick is probably going to be more detrimental to your health.
but yes i am definitely being dramatic, it's fun :)
Ok, replace sarcastic with hyperbolic and I still appreciate it. Everyone else is just shitting on my coworker like he's MAGA flat earther. What I should have really said is that he consumes more flouride by brushing his teeth than he would drinking tap water
yeah, at the end of the day it's important to be capable of gauging the importance of something. Even more so than actually understanding that specific within the importance.
But because of my sugar intake, my teeth are shit anyway
/s
Put the lithium in already.
Fuck it, put in arsenic
heavy metal riff
Ah. The benefits of being a boron based lifeform.
I absolutely can't stand minty or cinnamon toothpaste, and have really struggled with brushing my teeth because of it. It drives me absolutely insane that so many of the flavors I can tolerate are only available in fluoride free formulations and/or get discontinued.
I have issues with brushing too. I have a nerve disorder in my face which makes brushing my teeth extremely painful, so I can't do it all that often. I definitely benefit from fluoridated drinking water.
Ouch, that must really suck! I'm not dealing with actual physical pain here, just hate the minty fresh feeling in my mouth. Does mouthwash cause pain for you? I've never really used it, but briefly wondered if I could use a fluoride free toothpaste plus a fluoridated mouthwash, but I think I ran into the same issue with limited fluoridated flavors.
Mouthwash does not cause pain for me, but I think that's pretty disgusting and I'm currently dealing with a different health problem that involves heaving. Hooray shitty genes. I may resort to it one day if I have to.
Crest two in one shield is strawberry flavor with fluoride. Source: I have a teen with the same aversion. It doesn’t have animals or anything on it, but it is a “kids” toothpaste. You’d never know without reading it though, so I thought I’d mention it. Sorry if you’ve already heard of that one.
I haven't tried it, but will keep it in mind. I'm currently using the Hello brand toothpastes. They seem to be a little less sweet than most other kids toothpastes, which is a big plus for me. I like their bubblegum and orange flavors best, and the blue raspberry isn't bad either. They have some other flavors without fluoride, so you have to pay attention though.
Orange? I’m going to have to try that one, that actually sounds amazing.
Yeah, Crest used to sell an orange flavored toothpaste that wasn't a kid's product, and when it got discontinued, I paid about $30 for 3 tubes, so I was super excited to find another orange toothpaste. The only challenge is that very few stores carry the orange one, so I think I ended up buying it directly from the manufacturer website.
Oh man I don’t remember the orange toothpaste, but I remember when Crest had the orange mouthwash bc that was my jam.
I love cinnamon, it's so hard to find anymore, in contrast to your hatred, I wish they made more of it, but I also believe that they should be open to more flavors that aren't just oriented toward children.
Huh. I see quite a few cinnamon options online, but I wouldn't be surprised that it's harder to find in physical stores. They really seem to be cutting back on options everywhere lately. I found a brand that I like, so I just order a few tubes at a time from their website.
Aquafresh Extreme or whatever has a citrusy taste with a hint of mint. I love it, but my fiance hates it. It's called Mint Blast, but it's so minty that it doesn't taste minty to me.
You might like it, or you might hate it with the fire of a thousand suns.
OMG, both "extreme" and "blast" in combination with the word "mint" make me feel very strongly that I'll hate it! Haha. That whole "icy fresh" breath thing is so uncomfortable to me. When I'm done brushing my teeth, I just want my mouth to feel neutral.
I read your comment earlier today and then by chance was going to reorder toothpaste tonight, and I realized the kind of toothpaste I recently fell in love with has a citrus and a grape flavor, so I hunted down your comment to share with you!
The toothpaste has both fluoride and hydroxyapatite, which helps rebuild enamel. Ever since I started using hydroxyapatite, my teeth have that “fresh from the dentist clean” feeling every time I brush them. I was using a Japanese brand of toothpaste for a few years because that’s the only place I found that kind of toothpaste, but it was fluoride free. Just one tube ago I found a brand that has both!
The brand is Carifree, and this is the one I use.
Looks like they also have citrus and grape mouthwash!
And I thought I was crazy when I paid $10 for a 6oz tube! Hahah. I do need a new dentist though, so I might just try one of the dentists near me that carries their stuff so I can grab a tube.
Yeah, I should have mentioned the price is pretty insane… I’d desensitized myself to it a bit because of the whole buying-Japanese-toothpaste thing wasn’t cheap, and now I just can’t stand not using hydroxyapatite for more than like a week, lol.
Here in Germany, drinking water isn't fluoridated but fluoridated salt is sold at every grocery store. I assume that fluoridated salt isn't as easily available to those in the US who could now end up without fluoridated water, is it?
I have never seen fluoridated salt in the U.S. Our salt usually has iodine in it to make up for the iodine deficiency that was in American diets before that happened.
We've got both iodine and fluoride in our salt in Germany.
Das healthenboostensodiumchloride?
Nein, das Jodsalz mit Fluorid.
We should not be encouraging the least among us.
And yet the least among us is now the Republican candidate for president.
Again.
… Again.
I'm running for president?
There's at least one person worse than you and he's running for president.
Tom Hanks?
Ask the experts. You'll find their names have "D.D.S" after them.
Do what they say.
Yes. The answer is yes.
The only thing "bad" about flouride I know that is true is that it can lower DHT levels in your blood. I put bad in quotes because I don't know what DHT actually does, but the conspiracy I've heard is that DHT is needed to dream and imagine, so by drinking fluoridated water you're destroying your own creativity or whatever.
I always thought it was funny.
A friend of mine who believed a lot of conspiracy theories told me it was bad because it calcifies your pineal gland. I called bullshit and googled it.
Turns out, it actually does. There was no proof at the time that this causes any sort of issues, but there it was. I was unhappy that they were actually right about something; I didn’t want to give them the idea that any of their other crazy ideas had any validity.
lol
Like telling chemtrail believers about crop dusters.
Pretty sure the pineal gland can just calcify with age, it’s not something to be worried about.
Well, DHT can cause hair loss in people that are sensitive to it. But it's also an essential androgen for men. Overall, you probably don't want to decrease the natural levels in men, but lots of different, entirely normal things can cause fluctuations in hormonal levels, so it's likely not a large concern.
Yeah that’s #1 bullshit. DHT is a sex steroid and hormone that defines the male genitalia during the embryonic development. It builds out the entire male reproductive system right down to pubic hair.
Steroids always affect testosterone and that mostly affects men because they carry substantially more. So that’s sort of a clue in what area they target.
Creativity and “intelligence” are entirely abstract, human concepts. There is no one mechanism that governs them let alone a single hormone for that matter.
Also, just want to point out that our ancestors had literally perfect teeth. Perfect. Crooked and fucked up teeth is a modern infliction (no one really knows why). So just sayin.
I would adore to see your sources on this
This isn't some occult knowledge, a simple search will show many results concuring but here is one source:
Aye I suppose a lot would be explained by the fact that the skulls they find are likely to be people who died in their 20s and 30s, as was the fashion back then
Cheers. It’s wild people still prefer to believe that fluoride makes them dumber and less creative lol.
What an absolute dumpster fire 🤪
So your argument is to return to pre-agricultural life in order to not have fluoride in our water supply?
I didn't make any argument whatsoever, just provided a source.
Happy adoring I guess
Man, are these conspiracy nuts gonna be mad when they accidently ban us removing fluoride from water with dangerous concentrations. The amount of fluoride we shoot for would require a 155 lb person to drink around 5000 gallons.
Hey, I'm relevant!
You're blowin up!
It's not freedom if it contradicts science and goes against healthcare for the public.
...That's a dangerous position to take.
How many times do you think there have been positions that were generally accepted as being correct that were later found to be wrong? Things that we had evidence at the time that demonstrated they were a net positive, that later ended up being deeply flawed or outright incorrect?
Your version of 'freedom' would also say that no person has freedom of religion, both because it contradicts science, and because religion can cause real harms to both physical and mental health.
I have not made any statement about a general definition of freedom. My position was solely focused on the uneducated instrumentalization of the concept of freedom with regard to the scientifically recognized use of fluoride to improve the dental health of the population.
Are these not your words?
Yes they undoubtedly are.
You do not have the freedom to make my life worse. Period.
"Worse" is a value judgement rather than anything objective. People that like tinfoil headwear accessories would say that putting fluoride in the drinking water makes their lives "worse". So where does that leave you?
Conflating well proven science with conspiracy theories is ridiculous at best.
As we've seen in the last few years, you can find experts to say whatever you need. That'll have a longer lasting effect on the public's psyche than anything.
By that logic there should be mandated exercise
Me not exercising doesn't make you fat.
I disagree with them as well for different reasons but me not taking care of my teeth also doesn't make yours fall out
You can do whatever you want to your teeth and you're correct that it doesn't effect me, but this isn't a discussion about individual action or inaction. This is about what happens with the public water supply, which effects the entire public. That's why his comment about "mandated exercise" is wrong. You not brushing your teeth doesn't effect me, but removing the fluoridation from my water does.
I agree with you that its not about individual action, I was just saying your argument was kind of a non-sequitur. It was a hypothetical, so it's more like if exercise was already mandated and the argument was to take it away. In this metaphor you would be arguing in favor of the mandated exercise, just like you're arguing for fluoride, because you wouldn't get enough exercise without it.
Whatever, it's early, maybe I'm not making much sense. I wasn't trying to start anything. I'm more or less undecided on the whole fluoride thing.
We have mandated exercise in schools. It's good for people.
yes but we should do more studies on non-dental effects of water fluoridation.
There's been studies about the negative effects it has on thyroid function for people with hypothyroidism : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5805681/
Thanks, I've only read about mostly bone disorders but it makes sense that fluoride might interfere with other halogens in the body.
I'd like to see people make decisions on cost benefit analysis based on medical research. Dental caries can lead to tooth infections which have a number of severe health consequences but it doesn't mean there aren't smaller concerns about fluoridation that should also be taken into account.
For what it's worth I live in a country where the drinking water isn't flouridated. It's not a problem and it's certainly never made the news. I think easy availability of dental care, especially in schools since children tend to not be great at taking care of their teeth, is a bigger concern.
Apparently the Netherlands stopped adding fluoride to the drinking water decades ago (due to idiots). It is in toothpaste. Which then gets into the sewer which then gets into the drinking water.
Dutch article: https://www.drinkwaterplatform.nl/fluoride-in-drinkwater-alle-vragen-en-antwoorden/
Just let the fuckers teeth fall out already. I am tired of so much effort being spent on people who clearly want to die. It is everything, from seatbelts to motorcycle helmets to vaccines to transfats to HFC drinks. They want to die? Let them. Maybe darwinism will save us from them maybe it won't but at least we can all stop hearing about it.
Hi, I'm shit at brushing my teeth long enough/regularly enough. I am glad fluride is in the water.
Hi I'm someone who has concerns about animal testing and is sensitive to SLS causing mouth ulcers/generally ruining taste for a while, unfortunately hippy toothpaste often lacks fluride for insane reasons. I am glad fluride is in the water.
Hi I'm a kid with horrible parents that neglect my dental care. I am glad fluride is in the water.
"Just let people hurt themselves" is never that easy.
There are fluoride rinses you can buy for fairly cheap
We let people raise kids with religion
Could you be a little less online about stuff. If you're lile 15 and just coming out of indoctrination with limited support around I forgive you, otherwise Jesus christ mate get a grip.
A slicht problem with this approach is that for vaccines to be effective for anyone almost everybody has to be vaccinated…
Over enough time the only remaining people will be the vaccinated.
I'm pretty sure people criticized Republicans when they cheered on the whole "let them die" thing...
What is the big freakout about fluoride water lately? Haven't we been doing that for decades?
It's the newest fad in medical conspiracy theory panic.
it's old as fuck as well. they hate the idea of recycling but love to recycle bullshit.
i'm still just curious whether that "science" saying that "fluoride bad" is real or not.
Or if fluoride is actually just bad.
Until then i'm not doing anything because politics is probably going to kill me first anyway. No point in making a decision if you aren't familiar with it i suppose.
My understanding is that there's no evidence to support the idea that it's bad for you in this application at these concentrations.
There is evidence to support it being effective at reducing the risk of cavities.
that was also my understanding as well. So far i've had little reason to believe anything else.
Although i will say, hexafluroidated uranium is a some fucked up stuff. That's mostly because it's a fluoride base though. Fluoride can fuck your shit up apparently.
A little bit will help your teeth, but too much fluoride will kill you. That is true.
But, the levels of fluoride they are talking about are so low that you'd probably die from drinking too much water before the fluoride got you.
Does fluoride bioaccumulate?
checks out, given that's true for everything.
I'm glad people are finally taking a stand against Big Dental conglomerates. Wake up, people! Take charge of your own teeth!!
Edit: Sigh. I think I'll just add "/s" to my username.
I was pretty sure it was a joke, but you can never tell when it comes to these sort of crazies.
So what it the disadvantage of fluride in the water? Please tell me.
I thought it'd be obvious that it was sarcasm given how preposterous my comment was. Come on..."Big Dental!" LOL
You would think no one would seriously use a term like "big dental," but...
https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/r3fqeb/big_dental_lies/
Lol wtf
haha you got me!!
Well, the fluoride calcifies in your pineal gland. It shows up on brain scans and if it is not centered can help indicate or diagnose brain tumors. Some also say that the calcification closes your third eye and prevents you from communing with the ether.
Wow. That sounds bad
ಠ_ಠ
Fluoride is a neurotoxin, easy info to look up (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7230026/). Even if this is unproven, should we be putting drugs in the water where there are questions about how it affects brain development? If lead was good for our teeth, would that justify adding lead to our water?
Drugging a population through tap water is a terrible way to dispense drugs. If you disagree, do you mind if I put LSD in your water? It's been shown to have positive effects on mental health. How about lithium, should be add that too? Lithium is naturally found in some water also and also has been show to have positive mental effect in those areas, same story that got us to put fluoride in our water.
Our tap water effects so much more than our teeth, ignoring all other effects because it reduces tooth decay is plain dumb.
Fluoride is a mineral and builds up. Decades of fluoridated tap water used in gardens and our environment mean ever increasing toxin in our environment. It's bad for plants (also easy to look up) and it's effects on animals, birds, etc is unknown. Is it ok to gamble the well-being of other species when the tooth decay problem can be solved in ways without added risk?
The fluoride added to tap water is not of pharmaceutical quality, it's a waste product of fertilizer or nuclear material industries.
Hahahaha
Get the fuck back up in my mouth, teeth!
They're not listening! What do I do??
Poe’s law has only gotten more true over the last couple of decades.
thats brilliant really. I should highly consider that myself. although in this case it would not apply. I mean its often but still likely under 50% of my posts. mmmmmmm.
I’d say that this is the kind of thing we elect leaders to decide and implement for us, but my leaders are a bunch of fucking morons.
The people who elect them are morons.
I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.
Mandrake, do you recall what Clemenceau once said about satire?
Flouride my drinking water all day long baby!
I’m pretty sure the dentists love this.
I'm pretty sure if dentists are advocating for something that would make them less money in the long run, that whatever they're advocating for is a good idea.
Fun fact: In Sweden it's (and I think it has always been) illegal to put fluoride in drinking water. Presumably because it's illegal to manipulate drinking water in any way. I don't think there is a ban specifically on fluoride, but maybe.
That doesn't sound right. Is everyone in Sweden drinking untreated water? That sounds incredibly unsanitary.
What do you mean by untreated? Unchlorinated? In Europe, many countries also chlorinate their water, like the US. But not all do, because some have naturally clean water. Like the Netherlands, Scandinavia, Iceland.
I just mean the usual water treatment practices to ensure safe drinking water. At minimum I would expect filtration to be happening since you don't want particulates floating around in it.
Ah. Yeah that still happens. Also in the Netherlands. But no chlorination or any other kind of additions.
No, of course not. Our drinking water is some of the best drinking water in the world. It's very clean and good.
We don't add chlorine though. We just have really good filtration and processes and likely fairly good water to begin with.
I believe our sewage treatment is also excellent.
Yes
Medical freedom? Can't people use bottled or just move to a town with naturally high fluoride?
They're talking about the freedom of morons to not drink fluoride.
OK use bottled water or move to a city that doesn't need to add it
It doesn't make any more sense the second time you say it.
They don't want to live in a place with naturally high fluoride. They don't want to drink flouride.
Most bottled water is just tap water with extra plastic waste. Nobody should be drinking bottled water if they can avoid it.
bottled water is often just tap water, and im pretty sure nestle isn't a big enough dumbass to start removing shit that's actually just beneficial to people.
General Ripper has entered the chat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J67wKhddWu4
I tried fluoride-free toothpaste for one year during college. Came home for the summer with 12 cavities.
Fluoride works people.
Hey how come the government gets to put water in my pipes at all? There my pipes! True freedom is them being completely empty.
I am once again saying: Why not hydroxyapitite? A form of calcium, same as our teeth/bones. It even has water management uses because it adsorbs other stuff like fluoride and lead, which actually makes finding info about its addition to water for the purpose of teeth health difficult.
Though it seems like hydroxyapatite water would also make fluoride toothpaste even more effective.
You can't add hydroxyapatite to water because it's not water soluble
Couldn't hard water be described an issue of natural minerals being "not water soluble"? It's still going to be floating in the water, and I assume that hard water is a problem of excess and thus could be managed better. Maybe even the nano form, assuming that passes the safety checks (and guidelines for safe/effective concentrations can be established).
Dayyyyyyyymmmm
it SHOULD be up to the individual whether they want fluoride in the water they're drinking. this is not like vaccines, where unvaccinated people are a risk to everyone around them.
edit: adding this https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine/magazine_article/fluoridated-drinking-water/
and key takeaway: The Cochrane report also concluded that early scientific investigations on water fluoridation (most were conducted before 1975) were deeply flawed. “We had concerns about the methods used, or the reporting of the results, in … 97 percent of the studies,” the authors noted. One problem: The early studies didn’t take into account the subsequent widespread use of fluoride-containing toothpastes and other dental fluoride supplements, which also prevent cavities. This may explain why countries that do not fluoridate their water have also seen big drops in cavity rates (see chart).
I think a criticism of not fluoridating the water and only buying supplements is its going to favor wealthy people on average and amounts to essentially class warfare.
Imo it makes more sense to fluoridate the water and let rich people buy expensive filters to satisfy their feelings about fluoride. (I'd argue water filter peddlers maybe oversell the dangers of fluoridated water)
That's an argument for why it might not be as useful as we thought. It is not an argument for why it is harmful or negative or shouldn't be used. If it does no harm, then let the people who are afraid of it for no reason to filter it out.
Best comment in the whole thread
https://www.mdpi.com/2076-3417/10/8/2885
I'm sure this has already been asked. I'm too lazy to read all comments. Um, why would the dentists be mad? Are they not all in it for the money?
I had a hard time making a sensible analogy so instead here is a photograph:
Sometimes, you really don't need more customers.
I'm sorry to change topics, but is that place called Creamalot?
I scream for I Creamalot.
No, they're not.
Believe it or not, people will still have dental problems even if they all brushed and flossed three times a day.
This comes up in Portland periodically as we are one of the few places that DOESN'T fluoridate water.
When you do the research on it, you find some fascinating things:
Applying fluoride topically through toothpaste or mouthwash unequivocably works wonders for tooth decay.
There is no evidence drinking it as part of the water supply does ANYTHING. Positive or negative.
You have to understand one big thing... The first municipality to add fluoride to water did so in 1945.
The first fluoridated toothpaste wouldn't hit the market until 1955, 10 years later (thanks Crest!)
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/second-thoughts-on-fluoride/
So when you look at studies trying to determine if drinking water as a source is effective, you need to immediately ignore any study done before the introduction of fluoridated toothpaste and mouthwash.
....people didn't just... stop researching fluoride after the 40s/50s. Newer studies have found less of a dramatic benefit, likely because brushing with fluoridated toothpaste is more common, but there is still a significant benefit. The countries that reduced water fluoridation and saw little to no change have universal free dental care for children.
A lot of the pushback relies on pointing out that there are diminishing returns. Multiple sources of fluoride don't seem to have compounding benefits. But that completely ignores that the goal is to raise the baseline.
Not all kids are good at brushing their teeth, not all parents care or know to put it as a priority if they're struggling. It's not going to impact virtually anyone above the poverty line, but for the people who need it most it absolutely helps.
Fluoridating water is ridiculously cheap way to add a layer of safety. A ~15-25% reduction in cavities is absolutely worth pursuing.
I'm a sane libertarian (I promise some of us do exisit). People absolutely have a right to determine what goes in to their body, but fluoride is such a weird hill to die on. In particular when fortified grains are a mandate of the same ilk. All of this has a history, and shocker, it was always steeped in the same "but our culture" wrapping...
Edit: tl;Dr if you don't want to watch the video: and pellagra was proven to be one of those diseases that is zero problem... So long as your diet doesn't suck. The science had push back because it upset the economics. We're fighting the same battles now we were then.
Edit2: yes. I'm a libertarian, because as much as they're freaking nuts it still stems from a disagreement of a stated principle. A principle which had them back a ton of LGBTQ rights before anyone else. I'm voting Biden in 2024, strictly because I'd like to vote in 2028, but godamn this is how 2016 happened.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=reYKBgdrZsM&pp=ygUWUGVsbGFncmEgZXh0cmEgaGlzdG90eQ%3D%3D
Yeah, it seems like complaining about government provided WiFi.
"What if I don't WANT my kids on the internet dangit!?"
Lol, a bit late but a certain degree yes. Like as a libertarian Ill never be able to square taking money from someone's paycheck in NYC for subsidizing internet in Montana.
But... No one actually cares about that... Eve libertarians, because it's peanuts next to a shitty new f-30whatever that will ever fly.
It's by no mean perfect, and has been massively corrupted by whatever the hell we have going on right now in the US. But the principle of "if it doesn't affect anyone, stop talking to me" is a good one, and at least it's a stated one.
So yeah, I do kinda think people should have the right NOT to make cakes for gay weddings. Sure. Do I care when they're forced to? Ehhhhh. You were going to be out of business soon because you're a godamn asshole sooooo not really no I don't care lol.
So no, the gov should subsidize wifi, but they also already subsidize all sorts of shit, so youre damn right you have to service those folks. I guess that's the thing, libertarianism neccesaties egalitarianism, and nothing else does.
Ok so seems clear to me there's no real harm, but is there alleged benefit for adults? I've never had to rely on a municipal well so as a kid I had fluoride treatments and used fluoridated paste, but always thought it was just for kids. Is there benefit for me as a 40yo (with no cavities if it matters)?
Fluoride in water is the reason you have no cavities and will continue to have few to no cavities. Centuries ago you'd be lucky to have your teeth, the toothpaste definitely helps but the fluoride in water probably has a bigger impact on society overall
Sorry, you misunderstand. I don't rely on a municipal well, and adding fluoride to private wells isn't a thing AFAIK.
That's why as a child I had fluoride treatments. It would have been easier to just get it in the water, but tradeoffs. My kids get them too.
I was wondering about the fluoride treatments being child only or whether there were adult benefits.
There are adult benefits, yes. Fluoride re-mineralises teeth (in contrast to cavities) to a super-physiological state. Meaning: If tooth enamel is in the beginnings of a cavity state fluoride will fight that process and possibly repair the enamel to a state stronger than before.
Thanks! I'll talk to my dentist about it at my next appointment.
I've heard fluoride builds up in your bones so it's one of those negative health effects that's hard to study. But even if fluoride is safe I think it's effect is way oversold by pro fluoride people.
The dental health in the US is absolutely atrocious with fluoride in the water and it's primarily due to a lack of healthcare coverage.
It's pretty clear to me that pro fluoride advocates are hypocrites more interested in imposing their authority on people and collecting moral and political authority then doing anything that would substantially help people suffering from poor dental health.
The Authority: We're putting flouride in your water. And if you don't like it, then you can go to Helen up in the accomodations department and she'll get you set up with some filtering options for your home.
I mentioned it in a top-level comment, but there is hydroxyapatite that would likely be a better water additive (and increases effectiveness of fluoride toothpaste) and would probably also be good for bone health rather than a potential long-term risk.
I thought it's used instead of chlorine to decontaminate water
Water is disinfected with either chlorine, chloramine (ammonia + chlorine), ozone, or UV light. In North America chlorine is almost universal because it provides disinfection residual, which keeps water safe while it is travelling from the treatment plant to the consumer. Fluoride is added solely as a supplement to improve dental health.
Yeah, looks like I mixed fluoride with ozone
No, but not for any health reasons, it just tastes like shit lol
I thought fluoride in water was a bad idea because it can cause dental fluorosis when the teeth are still growing. Dental fluorosis is a condition that causes permanent stains on teeth and even make the enamel weak.
There's not enough fluorine in the water for that.
If you used fluoride mouth rinse regularly in addition to having fluoridated water and using fluoride toothpaste, then yes, you could end up with fluorosis because that's too much, but that's something you have to do intentionally.
I have heard that stanis flouride causes this but not sodium floride.
All I can say is, drinking fluoridated water isn't going to make a significant impact on your dental health if you don't brush and use mouthwash.
You'll never go to the dentist and have him say "you need to drink more fluoridated water."
No offense but if that's all you can say, why say it at all? It's very Tucker-esque to bring up something that sounds relevant but isn't
Dentists generally don't tell me to avoid sugar anymore. Because they know I know.
🥱
Right back atchya.
Except the article, that you are currently commenting on, indicates the exact opposite. Flouridated water decreases the chances of cavities as noted by communities studied, some without flouridated water and others with it.