Custom ROMs have had just about enough of being Android's second-class citizens

FutileRecipe@lemmy.world to Technology@lemmy.world – 1240 points – Custom ROMs have had just about enough of being Android's second-class citizens
androidauthority.com

TL;DR

  • Efforts like Graphene OS face increasing pressure from apps that refuse to run on non-standard Android.
  • The custom ROM project characterizes Google’s approach to device attestation as incomplete and flawed.
  • Graphene OS is prepared to take legal action if Google won’t let it pass Play Integrity checks.
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Hell yes.

It's fucking open source, this is no different from games with intrusive anti-cheat refusing to run on Linux, except in this case it's not even a different OS.

It's monopolistic and anti-user.

Ironically, if Graphene would succeed, it would lead to a system that's every bit as locked down as a manufacturer's Android. GrapheneOS would also not allow you to have root etc.

IMO Graphene wants a place at the big player table. They're not in it for user freedoms.

A manufacturer's Android can have special privileges for their own apps, and almost will certainly have special privileges for Google's apps.

Graphene by default wouldn't give special privileges to any app, so that's at least a plus.

It's true that it would be locked down, but you at least have a couple more controls over how locked down compared to a manufacturer's OS.

yeah. like my manufacturers' 3-year-old, full-o-spyware ROM is more secure than latest clean installed lineage.

they just want control, not security. and with banking apps becoming a necessity, i'm starting to be forced to return to stock.

graphene sandboxes Google services so they don't run as root on your device. I haven't encountered an app I can't get running on graphene yet and having Google play installed as non root is a far sight better than stock.

my biggest problem with lineage was compatibility with banking apps so I reluctantly switched but graphene is a solid choice in operating system for privacy and security.

does it hide root/custom roms?

if so im interested.

not really. after enabling oem unlocking in developer options you just boot it while holding one of the volume buttons and you're able to unlock the bootloader.

root is not typically available and you don't need it for most uses besides development, but even then, I would recommend not using a phone you daily for that.

sure, but unrooted custom roms also trip the protections.

root can sometimes be used to mask that.

you're already over my head but you can talk to the devs. they have a matrix chat they link on their site

Graphene is great, but I'm currently on a Xiaomi phone so I can't run most ROMs, I'll likely run derpfest when I get the bootloader unlocked

that's one I haven't heard of. how is it functionally?

I haven't tried it yet, but it seems to have a lot of pixel features ported, I realized crDroid supports my phone so I might try that

Myself, I use my bank's web portal via my mobile browser. Not as instant as an app, but it gets the job done.

Culprit is: I need the phones app as second factor to log in to the web interface.

Yep been seeing more of that. Will just refuse to use it on my phone.

It's been clear for at least 10 years that apps are about data harvesting not making something more useful or easier to use or more universal than a mobile website.

I'd just leave for a different bank at that point, although I get that it's not always practical.

Graphene os + a work profile + sandboxed play services allows you to have some baking apps. Ive got 3 and they all work without a hitch.

same bs with apps not running jidt because root or apps not being visible in playstore because of it. Netflix isn't even showing up as existing in playstore just because i have root. it's nuts. and there are tons of apps like this.

Netflix and their DRM is so extremely stupid it's incomprehensible. It only hurts normal users while the rippers have no issues getting the content.

You can fix most apps with the Play Integrity Fix module and denylist. You might have to hide the magisk app too. It doesn't get 100% of them though, I still can't figure out how my bank app is catching it. Plus I've had RCS stop working with that setup, so I have to keep it disabled to avoid missing messages

The apple music app checks for a specific binary. Could be something like that.

I have been using stock for a while, but I remember using magisk root to hide root to the bank app and I never had an issue

i do that but sadly it aint working anymore. they implemented a new google sanctioned way of blocking it that hasnt been cracked yet.

Second phone just for these things wouldn't work for what you need?

That's not exactly a great solution. It works, but it's a shitty workaround at best.

Not disagreeing I was genuinely asking.

For me it wouldnt be too inconvenient but I barely use banks so my perspective is atypical

I do basically that, but with aSamsung tablet, then my phone can be for phone things, calls, messages, emails. Then if I'm out and about and need to check my bank, mobile hotspot to my phone and go from there.

thats what i do atm, but its a shitty solution when i have a perfectly good phone. it defeats the purpose.

the irony is, my second phone is probably less secure, because its stuck in an ancient version of android.

The world of mobile phones is a real world example of what we avoided on the PC back in the day when the IBM BIOS got reverse engineered, allowing for someone to put out an IBM compatible PC without having to pay the tithe to big blue first. Not that IBM didn't do their level best to put those efforts in the ground with their lawyers and the courts as soon as they found out about it. Thankfully the legal system of the time didn't allow that to happen.

It has been pretty depressing to me that the tech literate have been so easily lulled into accepting such things in the name of "cool toys" and "security" virtually everywhere in modern life besides the PC/laptop/server spaces.

Phones, TV set top boxes, smart TVs, IoT gear. They are all a cesspit of locked down propitiatory and gate kept gardens where nothing happens without the gardens keeper getting a cut and having final say over everything.

This sort of control and gatekeeping from the likes of Google, Apple, and Qualcomm was not something that was hard to see coming a mile away, yet we all collectively let it happen anyway.

It has been pretty depressing to me that the tech literate have been so easily lulled into accepting such things in the name of “cool toys” and “security” virtually everywhere in modern life besides the PC/laptop/server spaces.

From my exposure to supporting said folks with PC related problems, its easy to see the reality here. Phones provide a streamlined experience with zero frills. They don't want super flexible computing devices, they want appliances. More to the point, the level of care and maintenance needed to have a top-shelf PC experience is time and effort most people would rather not expend. Doing this right was inconvenient to begin with, and left the field wide open for anything that would be easier.

My complaint is not that the "appliance" solutions exist for those that want them. But that there is next to no room in the market now for options that are not those "appliance" solutions for those that do want them but also want to take part in the modern tech world with things like NFC payments without having to trick the services with Magisk modules.

Oh, we're on the same page there. I'm complaining about that too. Things are shifting from "make the environment easier for some people" to "painstakingly chisel out an expert mode like you're escaping from Shawshank." and I do not like it.

The PC was stolen fire from the gods. aRM snapdragon X will take back our fire, turn PC into smartphone on the desktop.

Heracles could shoot the eagle and break the chains, but then Prometheus might inform Zeus of the path to Troy. Titanomachy is one way of exchanging fire, but I'm human and content to hand it back and forth between each other. The pain of letting go is nuclear enough after Gaia and Uranus's Family Vacation tore valleys through the mountains.

Chatgpt, decode this thread

Your message draws heavily on mythological references and metaphor to discuss the evolution of technology, particularly the ongoing shifts in computing power and platforms. Let’s break it down:

Stolen Fire from the Gods: This likely references the myth of Prometheus stealing fire from the gods to give to humanity, symbolizing the act of bringing powerful, once-guarded knowledge or technology to the masses. In a modern context, this could relate to how advanced computing technology, once limited to powerful PCs, is now becoming more accessible.

ARM Snapdragon X: ARM architecture, particularly Qualcomm's Snapdragon chips, powers many modern smartphones and tablets. The "Snapdragon X" might symbolize the next step in this evolution, suggesting that these mobile processors are becoming powerful enough to rival traditional PCs, effectively turning a smartphone into a desktop-like experience.

Heracles and the Eagle: In the myth, Heracles shoots the eagle that tortures Prometheus, which could represent a disruption or liberation. Here, it might be a metaphor for technological breakthroughs that disrupt the current state of computing, potentially "freeing" users from traditional PC constraints.

Prometheus informing Zeus: This could suggest the risks of such breakthroughs—informing Zeus of the path to Troy might hint at unintended consequences or revealing strategies that could lead to new challenges or conflicts, perhaps hinting at issues of control, security, or privacy in technology.

Titanomachy: The Titanomachy was a war between the Titans and the Olympians. This might symbolize large-scale technological battles or shifts, like the competition between different tech giants or platforms.

Human Exchange of Fire: Unlike the gods, humans share knowledge and technology with each other, passing "fire" back and forth, which could represent the collaborative and iterative nature of technological progress.

Pain of Letting Go: Innovation often comes with sacrifices—letting go of older technologies or familiar ways of doing things, which can be as painful and destructive as nuclear fission, perhaps referencing the intense impact and change technology can bring, much like the mythological conflicts that reshaped the world.

Gaia and Uranus's Family Vacation: This refers to the myth where Gaia (Earth) and Uranus (Sky) bore the Titans, leading to significant upheavals. This could symbolize the fundamental, tectonic shifts that technological advancements create in society, reshaping landscapes (both literal and metaphorical).

In essence, your message seems to discuss the transformation of computing power, the challenges of innovation, and the profound impacts technology has on society, all wrapped in a mythological narrative.

Considering the lawsuits, now seems like a good time.

I really hope the GrapheneOS team succeed. Custom ROMs are reason I'm really into tech today. Coding, FOSS, Linux, etc. all that came from rooting my dad's HTC phone back in the day. Google shouldn't cannibalize its children.

Google shouldn’t cannibalize its children.

besides these two lazy kids and the witch who just wants to eat there's also the hungry stepmom who pushed the idea and the deadbeat dad who went along with it (until both women die and he ends up the hero)

Here's a harsh truth and a reality some tech users need to wake up to.

Google has never cared about open-source. They have never cared about user-choice/user freedom. They could easily tomorrow make Android closed-source and that would be the end of Android. It has always been about control. Apple got that authoritarian idea correct long ago by locking down the entire OS.

Google is allowing open-source modding only because there's a large community out there that cares and wants it to thrive. And since it runs on Linux, it would make Google look VERY bad if they removed bootloader unlocking, open source, removed features that causes issues for custom roms.

Google doesn't care you YOU. If they really cared, they wouldn't be slowly removing features or adding anti-user features that in the long run, don't benefit anyone but them.

I'm glad the government declared them a convicted monopoly. I'm still ashamed it took them this long to finally go through with it.

What an insane world we live in.

Afaik GPL 2 would be stopping google from making android closed source anyway, unless I got something wrong about the license terms. But if anything that supports your argument. The main reason google is generally supportive of open source is that they recognize that they benefit from it. The moment that changes, google will try their best to close off anything it can (granted I don't think it's that likely to change, but they're already abusing their position plenty).

There is another side to this coin though,

Android roms took googles work. The community could have assisted with other mobile os systems like Firefox OS or Ubuntu mobile but didn't.

Instead ROM developers wanted a cookie cutter solution.

In practice, Android is actually fairly open. Republicans have a weird obsession with Google (remember that weird hearing where they clearly didn't understand technology). You can even disable the inbuilt apps

This could lead to a situation like windows where 50 popups are added. It's could backfire and it benefits Apple a lot. That's what I'm concerned about. I'm worried that I'll end up paying for Gmail or more for Android. And Google will get blamed for it

Android ROMs community took Google's work? Are you forgetting which community developed Kernel does Android use? Let's not think about the custom ROMs community as free loaders, please. They provide a free and amazing service.

Can you handily disable notifications being monitored or the keyboard informing google on your typing? Disabling apps is surface level, the software is free to te end user for a reason, google harvests us.

Here's my take which i have not seen in this thread. When you buy your hardware it is yours you should be allowed to do with it as you please. If you want to wipe the device and install another ROM or os you should be able to. Much like the recent fight for "right to repair" not allowing you to do what you want with your property should not be allowed. As long as the manufacturer blocks your ability to do what you want with your hardware it isn't really your hardware.

Furthermore, if the manufacturer wants to pretend that they're selling you a perpetual license to use the hardware or whatever legal bullshit they came up with on the back of a cocktail napkin between lines of coke then they can't advertise using the words buy, own or anything similar without explicitly indicating in the largest font that you aren't the owner of the product.

Unfortunately that line of thinking stops at the divide between hardware and software. You can legally make a phone manufacturer let you unlock a phone's bootloader so you can install other software, and you can forbid them from denying hardware warranty because you installed other software. Both of which apply in the EU.

But you can't make them have their software support or play nice with the other software that you install.

You also can't force manufacturers to open up drivers if they're under NDAs and proprietary licensing (which they often are, due to extensive cross licensing because everybody's owning patents that can lead to everybody suing everybody if they were ever used).

To combat this I think drivers, firmware, etc. should be acknowledged as being in the same category as spare parts, manuals, repair tools, etc. They are equally as vital to being able to repair your device, and therefore should be open sourced at the latest when a manufacturer pulls support. Of course I would prefer them to be open sourced immediately, but with how software IP works currently that seems like a pipe dream, especially for devices with very complex drivers, like GPU's.

This is why raspberry pi can't use a single smartphone recycled screen despite having a DSI port and a billion oled touchscreens going to landfill.

Also, still is impossible to make Verizon unlock bootloaders

You are absolutely right we can not make them give us access to drivers but just like with nvidia there are people willing to figure it out. I am not for government oversight but if the manufacturers refuse to offer any help then they may need to step in. The EU has made massive strides towards standardizing manufacturers. I also don't think it would be necessary for the manufacturers to open source their software but its already wrote just release it as closed source so it could be used at the community level.

Wow, I legit just ordered a used pixel yesterday to give graphene a try lol. Uncanny timing!

Anyhow, that's great news! I can really see the EU sinking its teeth into this if nothing else.

Thankfully there are FOSS alternatives for apps like Authy. I recommend Aegis

For your banking app, you can use this list to check if it's compatible: https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compatibility-with-grapheneos/

Using the web app might also be an option.

Thanks for the tips, I'm a happy Aegis user already! Thankfully, my main bank explicitly doesn't care about custom roms and I'm thinking I'll just cut ties with the ones who do and let them know that was the reason at this point. Worst case scenario, I still have my locked down old phone.

I've been using graphene for years at this point and it's the best operating system I've ever had on a phone. Before this my favorite phone was a jail broken iPhone 5c. I even got a pixel tablet to take notes on for college recently and put graphene on it as well.

Only thing Google has right atm is leaving the bootloader on their phones unlockable.

I plan on doing the same thing, any tips on finding cheap recent-ish Pixels?

The Pixel 6a is really cheap on the used market, and it still gets updates for at least 3 years.

The 7a isn't that expensive either. I recommend staying away from Fairphones, Murena or /e/OS as these are highly insecure, and the companies behind them have repeatedly proven that they don't give even the slightest fuck about the security of their users. They don't publish important Android security patches on time, and Fairphone even managed to fully break Android Verified Boot, by signing their ROM with the publicly available (!!!) AOSP test private signing keys. It should have been impossible to pass verification, but the vendor conducting the verification seems to be just as incompetent.

A used Pixel with GrapheneOS is your best option, while still being affordable.

A brand new Murena Fairphone 4 (North America) is about $600 brand new, IIRC. I've been on one for the last 6 months and it's excellent.

I'm planning on flashing my One Plus 9 Pro with Murena's ROM. I'm working on getting de-googlefied.

Perhaps consider DivestOS as well if it's supported, seems to be a way tidier package when it comes to security and privacy.

Stay away from both Fairphone and /e/OS/Murena. Fairphone fails hardware security in the most miserable way, and fundamentally breaks Android Verified Boot, while /e/OS is based on the highly insecure LineageOS, and it further rolls back security, while also repeatedly missing important security patches.

Also, 600 dollars is absolutely not cheap for a smartphone, and it's especially not with it considering that both the hardware and software are highly insecure.

A Pixel can be purchased for much less, while being superior in every way.

Lineage OS is highly insecure ?

Yes, it is much worse than stock Android

https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/android.html#lineageos

https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm

Thanks, I'll check it out. I've installed lineage since it was Cyanogenmod on secondary devices for years. I dedicate them for audiobook playback and music playback. I'll look in to it.

I'm in an unsupported region so I'm afraid I can't help much :(

In my case I just looked around a local eBay-like site and went with a reputable enough seller, fairly standard procedure there.

Where I am, Pixels are not sold officially either. I got a 7a for around $300. I picked a store with a physical office and made an order not through the site, but through said office. And at least could inspect the phone before buying.

Ah, that's a nice way to go about it! I'd have loved to inspect mine beforehand as well but the only real way to grab one around here is importing yourself and paying 60%+ import fees on the damn thing or purchasing a preowned one. My living in a remote area also means there are none close by.

I would recommend buying a used phone from the most recent generation. I had my pixel 5 die on me about 7 months after I got it used due to a major Android update. Phone crashed hard and bricked, so don't get a 5 (even though it was my favorite design of the pixels). I have an 8 right now I bought it refurbished on Amazon. It works great and I know it will last a while being the most recent model. Also check FB marketplace if you have a Facebook account. People in my area are selling phones often.

I would totally buy a Pixel too but apparently most Pixels here are black market and the IMEIs are banned so I don't wanna risk getting one that can't connect to cell networks

Oof that's scary. Good thing I have a decent enough return window to at least make sure stuff like that isn't the case, at least.

I would totally buy a Pixel too but apparently most Pixels here are black market and the IMEIs are banned so I don't wanna risk getting one that can't connect to cell networks.

Enjoy! For future reference I'd recommend just getting the latest Pixel as you'll get the longest software support. E.g. a Pixel 8a is supported till May 2031, which is plenty of time to get a lot of usage out of your phone.

Right, I'd love to spring up for a 8th gen pixel but I live in an unsupported region and my currency is worth fuck all so I'll have to make do with a secondhand 7 pro lol. Still fantastic longevity all things considered.

I'll have to make do with a secondhand 7 pro

Ouch, that hits me right in the 7Pro feels lol. Make do, indeed, lolol.

Honestly, I don't really need my phone for much so as long as the battery hasn't degraded too much I'll be more than happy!

I'm holding out for the 10. The 8 added mirrored display (so you can mirror your screen on a monitor... I'd rather this come with the Pixel Tablet 2 and the Pixel Tablet skipped it form some reason) and MTE, which GrapheneOS says is the most significant addition to security since they've started the OS. If those come with the 10, not to mention the 10 is supposed to have Google's inhouse chip and not Samsung's...yep, I'm upgrading.

Great points, I'll definitely keep an eye on the 10! Should fit in nicely within the time I'll be due an upgrade, give or take.

At the price of the Pixel 8a, I would suggest getting the Pixel 8 instead.

Personally I'm fine with 8as' specs and don't need any of the extra features of the Pixel 8 so I'd prefer to save the money and get an 8a. Plus 8as are supported for longer. Nothing wrong with getting an 8 instead if that's what you want though

All of the 8th are VERY expensive now. Only the 7th Pixels are approaching sane prices.

I got a 7a even though 7 was only a little bit pricier, because it is smaller - already on the edge of what I can use with one hand, 7 would probably cross that invisible boundary. And, just as importantly - has a plastic back instead of glass.

I wish you could slap a custom rom on whatever phone you want and it Just Works™ like you can slap linux on any PC, but instead we get apps that potentially don't work, locked bootloaders, push notifications tied to Google Play Services, and whatever else. You can put Lineage on the EU version of my phone but not the US version because fuck you. I hate how corpo centric phones have become. Like Google shouldn't be allowed to hijack my entire screen for an ad or an app update. The entire modern definition of "sideloading" is BS, apps have access by default to things that they really don't need, and why do I need to use ADB to purge your pre-installed bloatware ffs

Not cool.

We can get same experience quite soon on laptops too when arm laptops&desktop will arrive toensd users.It gonna be lock down same as phones nowdays.

I do not like this prediction, because it seems like a plausible reality. Which would be awful.

risc-V laptops might compete with arm in a few years - maybe not for power users, but for most simpl use , or for those who will just ssh into real computer.

Yeah it would’ve been like that for pcs too if they weren’t around for quite longer.

5 more...

I've been tired of "modern" security doing nothing but annoy people. Recently, a Portuguese bank "innovated" by exclusively allowing login only on a mobile device. Yes, a clean web browser with 3FA is not "secure" enough, has to be done on a mobile device. Clearly, desktop PCs are too insecure to conduct transactions.

Therefore, because one does not trust their mobile device. One simply spun up a clean Pixel VM, shared my data with Google and just did their work there. Peak security.

They are steamrolling usability for elder people with that kind of security measures. I can't understand how they can get away with this, those bastards.

I would close my bank account if they did that and move my money to a better bank. I don't do financial stuff on mobile phones.

Stockpile did this too. I quit them (i did not like them anyway but that was the last straw)

Even without the custom ROMs, the whole Android ecosystem is a colossal fucking mess.

I've got old apps that won't work any more. It's not even compatible with itself.

People give Windows a load of shit, and deservedly so for some of it, but it's a million times more usable than Android when you want shit to "just work".

Same with iOS, I don't know why you are singling out Android here. My favorite game back when I used an iPad stopped working after certain update. It was a puzzle with rails and colored trains, can't remember the name now.

Windows and Linux are quite a lot better in this regard.

I'm not singling them out, it just happens to be a thread about Android.

There's no reason for mobile OS's to be flaky like this. There's nothing magic about either that means old stuff can't be supported. It's just that trillion dollar corporations apparently can't afford the resources.

There kind of is, software changes and things need to be updated by comparison, your windows example is a double edged sword, there's a lot of bloat and Microsoft can't make changes that might be beneficial on windows because of all the backwards compatability layers and services they generally leave in. It's good and bad in it's own way.

I suppose you're talking about a 32-bit app that wasn't updated for the newer 64-bit architecture. If yes, then there's actually a technical reason behind it, not just Apple being dicks. Because other than 32-bit apps, every app that received a 64-bit update should still work on the latest iOS.

I've got old apps that won't work any more.

I'm actually for this. The bar to entry for the Play Store is too low with too many low quality and unmaintained apps. I'm all for booting insecure and super old apps. They cheapen the ecosystem.

Well that's all very well, but I've got a bathroom speaker I can no longer access.

So how about instead of Daddy Google deciding what's best for everyone, they let things run and give you a warning?

Hell, I've even got games I've paid for that are now gone. Honestly, fuck them for even thinking that's acceptable.

Same, it's why I never buy a game or app nowadays, they will just stop working when the new OS version comes around, devs already got their money so they don't have any incentive to care, and contrary to PC I can't do shit about it myself on my phone, there's no "androidbox" to run old apps inside my phone.

You're really arguing for a covenant around tech that companies want to orphan. The rule needs to be the code is opened and a slacker code owner is appointed for handover.

This is gonna embarrass Google a Lot but it's gonna embarrass azn and m$ a whole lot more.

The forced alternative is a refund if you can bring something recognizable with a serial number to your post office or something as ubiquitous, present and staffed - have them validate in the loosest fashion and require like 10 bizdays for the cash refund.

Whether or not the post office is there for that or charges the OEM for the notary-light service is a matter for the courts, the USPS, and these days probably the fn SCotUS.

So how about instead of Daddy Google deciding what's best for everyone, they let things run and give you a warning?

That is not what's happening. It takes tons of work to maintain backward compatibility but you're framing it as though it doesn't and they're just being a holes on purpose.

Why can't you connect to the speaker with Bluetooth?

It doesn't allow direct connection. You have to dick about with a stupid app to put it in "speaker mode" first.

Damn that sucks!!!! I wish there was a way to sandbox older apps. I've ran into the same issue with old apps before.

Gives me Sonos vibes.

I won a Sonos speaker years ago, thing needed (from memory) an app to switch to AUX mode. The speaker sounded great but I didn't want to install an app just to use the thing.

In a grand spectacle my ex's cat kicked a potplant off a windowsill into our fish tank. That shorted a power board, we didn't have breakers (ceramic / wire fuses) which ended up killing the speaker.

Honestly as nice of a speaker it was, good riddance.

The problem is allowing the APIs it uses to exist at all in the OS is a huge security hole.

So it's my choice to run them?

If I can download an APK, I should be able to run it in a "compatibility mode" and have the OS do it's best to run it.

There's a few apps that let you virtualize an older version of Android, but in my experience they're slow, and they're all from sketchy-looking Chinese companies that are for sure harvesting all your data. There's also an open source project running for this, but I don't remember what it was called and it was fairly limited.

It can't.

A compatibility mode would involve meaningful cost, massively compromise security, and not have a chance in hell of working.

They could just spin up a container of some sort. It's still fundamentally Linux, so it should be possible to run Android inside an lxc container the same way you can run a desktop Linux distro in docker (which is based on the lxc functionality in the Linux kernel)

The point is that you have to emulate a fuckton of low level access to even have a chance of anything working. Either you replace the actual hardware access with junk data, making none of the apps work, or you break the whole permissions structure, and your security is completely gone.

All of those APIs were deprecated because it's impossible to provide them in any way that resembles security.

I mean, as long as it's in a pretty robust sandbox and it's either firewalled or has no network access (if possible for the app in question), I would think security implications are minimal. Like, even if the version of Android inside the container is compromised, the app could only take over its own container, which is non-privileged and doesn't have access to anything you didn't explicitly give it (in terms of user data).

But almost every app is going to crash because they're built on needing the information those APIs return.

His example of not being able to control some wireless speaker? Supporting that app is going to be a mess, best case.

You'd need some sort of translation layer to allow older versions of the Android userland drivers in the container to talk to the modern Android userspace drivers. Or you could write new userspace drivers inside the container that interact directly with the hardware, but this would likely be expensive and insecure. Definitely doable tho, especially for a company as large as Google.

Especially on Pixels, with the generic system image feature (allows for booting generic, non-device-specific android images), if the container is built with the same userland drivers as a generic system image, it might not even need any special effort/attention to run, though iirc GSIs are pretty recent, so you wouldn't be able to run software for anything before like,, Android 12 or 13 probably.

How we all wish there was a third option, I would genuinely take less functionality in favour of privacy and performance. I don't need AI and fancy image processing. I want to use my phone to pay the old way, like when samsung copied the magnetic strip info, not like now where google gets a copy of my receipts.

Sucks iOS is the alternative, nearly gave in last week but the price was just too much for what I was getting.

I’ve got old apps that won’t work any more.

That's true for every operating system. Old apps aren't updated to use new system APIs and such and they eventually stop working.

On desktops we can use virtual environments, translation layers, plenty of solutions to make old programs and games work on a modern OS. Phones are somehow incapable of this.

Yet I can compile applications that work on Windows XP, and they still work under Windows 11.

It's not as if Android is some svelte slimline OS where every byte matters. There's plenty of room there for keeping compatibility with older apps.

Dude there's millions of lines of code and thousands of hours per year that keep old windows shit running. It's a nightmare to support that. Microsoft has made that a priority and you can easily argue it shouldn't be, but you seem convinced that's the only valid path. It's not.

Software that is 10 years old and unmaintained is likely unsafe to use and therefore shouldn't work. Windows has a lot of issues specifically because it's backward compatible with ancient software, actually. Security and a path forward should matter more than clinging to old software that must stop working someday regardless of how hard you try to delay it. Emulation/VMs are and should be a way to work around that on desktop and it would actually be nice if mobile OSes had that too. That way at least the ancient software can be sandboxed and not a security weakpoint. The right approach though is not to do this horrible patchwork of APIs like windows which creates a security nightmare

I've got old apps that won't work any more.

People give Windows a load of shit... but it's a million times more usable than Android

Where do you run your old Windows Phone apps nowadays? What about new Windows Phone apps?

On my Windows Phone silly

Can't tell if that's a horrible wallpaper or a totally fucked up screen

It's a photo from a disused quarry that my granddad used to work in

I see it! That's pretty cool.

Dude, that's sick, thank you! I wish I had a better pic to offer but this is the best I can do since Jerboa app is not currently letting me upload pictures in a comment...

🤘🏼

Ah, memories.

Memories? Pssshhhh, he took that pic an hour ago...

How?!

It still works. Most of the apps are borked. Windows Explorer hasn't been updated in 5+ years so doesn't work with most sites. Baconit escaped reddit's 3rd party app purge and still works. Imgur still works well but with all the genX on it reminds me of icanhazcheezeburger.

with a device equipped with a camera of sorts, if I had to guess

I hope some OEM (especially those opposed to google) picks up and develops mainline linux like Pine Phone. There are already several mobile UXs and distros with prebuilt images available as well, and it has been shown multiple times that Android apps can run fairly easily on linux. It would be a big risk, but I think it'd at least find a market success like the Steam Deck.

Android in its current state is the same as Chromebooks. A glorified walled garden of google's crappy choices & DRM which just so happens to run on the Linux kernel because it's free. People downvote me for this, but I maintain that even Dalvik and the android runtime itself is an inefficient relic of 10+ years ago when mobile devices had at most 2gb of ram and a tiny low power ARM processor.

It runs like complete crap sometimes on modern devices despite huge advancements in the underlying tech. It feels like a knockoff JVM which is already a known memory hog.

On top of that, it sticks with single kernel releases with proprietary OEM binaries so you have devices out here running on kernels as old as 3.x because no custom ROM will be able to recompile the device modules for a newer kernel.

It is almost hilarious to me that Moonshell, a multimedia homebrew software for the Nintendo DS (4mb of RAM), has more complete features, file compatibility, and better UI design than at least 95% of the music apps on Google Play. And it was written by literally one guy. I was honestly surprised at just how many music players lacked functionality as basic as supporting m3u playlists.

The problem of being stuck on an old kernel isn't because of Google or Android, but because of chip makers (e.g. Qualcomm) not providing drivers.

I do blame Google. It's their platform. They could mandate upstream kernels.

They could define auto discoverablity for their platform hardware. Then it would be possible for generic ROMs to boot on any Android phone.

I feel that the mobile world is ripe for disruption. There has not been excitement for new devices in a while from me and my friends who are all into tech. I remember 00s and early 10s where we used to discuss new devices all the time.

Most of us are STUCK with Apple and Google because they have both built walled gardens. It is not just the apps, it is also moving away from open standards, moving away from even files. e.g., 10 years ago mp4 files used to hold all the metadata related to a TV Show/Movie so if you put that into a device (iTunes for example) it'll have all the metadata, now this info is in a separate database. SMS for all it's flaws was open, now google wants us to believe RCS is also open (LOL).

This has led to a basic degradation in all the basics, echoing your example that it is impossible to find a decent music app.

Even apples own music has has ACTIVELY DEGRADED. Bottom bar of apple music app was "Albums", "Songs", "Artists", and "Playlists" and YOU COULD CHANGE THE BOTTOM BAR. Now it is literally "Home" == Ads, "Browse" == Ads (pls buy apple music), "Search" == Ads. and LITERALLY only 1 page called "Library" where you can access your own purchased library. Same happened with apple books.

Android has seen similar shitty stuff, I remember being excited about actually FUN android games, tiny thief, vector, cut the rope, where is my water, etc. Now it is all ads, paywall nonsense.

Not to mention the Today page of the Playstore ACTUALLY USED TO BE USEFULL for highlighting some apps. And is not LITERALLY ONLY F***** ADS.

I feel/hope/pray that we have a SteveJobs 2007 type iPhone event around the corner, because everyone is ready for it.

There really is a dearth of choices. I’ve little love for Google’s version of android, mostly for privacy reasons.

If I could get a decent phone that ran at reasonable speed for a tolerable price, without the tracking, I’d be willing to give it a go - and endure more than a few pain points.

Getting an "a" series pixel for a few hundred and going grapheneOS seems like a good option, no?

I have tried it. Pixel 6a.

My banking app works. That's good.

RCS messages don't. Could live without that.

Merlin bird ID doesn't. Pain point all right, but I'll live.

My Galaxy Watch doesn't. Probably not GrapheneOS' fault, and I should buy a better watch, but that will only happen when this one dies.

Now I use a pixel 7a with stock ROM. Everything works, and if I get sick of it, I can get back to GrapheneOS and it's quirks..

I hope some OEM (especially those opposed to google) picks up and develops mainline linux like Pine Phone.

Huawei is being forced to do it. But like Android, their HarmonyOS is not 100% open-source. There's also KaiOS, which some Nokia and Alcatel, and all Jio, devices use.

even Dalvik and the android runtime itself is an inefficient relic of 10+ years ago when mobile devices had at most 2gb of ram and a tiny low power ARM processor.

Both the ones I mentioned are designed to be more memory efficient. KaiOS in particular is aimed primarily at feature phones and entry-level smartphones.

Recently moved to graphene couldn't be happier

I don't care about these apps but it will only get worse over time if not addressed. I could see things as simple as Spotify, Netflix, etc. Refusing to run

I don't use those services either but that's not a future I want

I could see things as simple as...

Last I heard, the McDonalds' app doesn't work, of all things.

https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/9123-the-mcdonalds-app-doesnt-work/

Wow, there you go then.

Literally 1984 (/s)

Can't even order Donalds from your phone that you bought with your own money anymore 🫡

Neither does the BBC's couch to 5k app, for who knows what reason.

The only reason I stopped using grapheneOS was because Google contactless payment didn't work.
Loved everything else about graphene tho

You could use sandboxed google play on the main user or second user.

Still can't use tap to pay

Do you pass play integrity?

Do you pass play integrity?

GrapheneOS, and other non-OEM OSes, do not. It's kinda the whole point of the article/OP I linked.

Have you tried playintegrity fix?

Nope, nor do I intend to. GrapheneOS frowns upon rooting and modifying the system as it typically widens your attack surface. I'm not using a secure OS then going around to purposefully make it less secure.

I'm sure Google contactless payment works really well when the phone is dead. Or you drop your phone in a toilet or off a bridge. It's far easier to loose a phone than a card in a wallet in your pocket. If you lose your phone, you also lose access to all your money.

Not a fan of google pay, but I gotta say, I lost way more wallets than phones in my life it's about a 3 to 0 ratio (not counting purses I have lost before owning a phone.

I also carry a wallet? Cause, yknow, ID and stuff.

Phone is just way more convenient. Especially since I don't have a limit on its contactless amount. Whereas with my card, I would have to chip&pin for anything over £40

I've never used contactless on my phone, I already had a contactless debit card. Why are you, and others, using their phones to pay?

Why carry a contact less card when you can pay with your phone? Have you given it a try? I find myself without a card in lots of situations. Paying by phone is incredibly convenient. Lot harder to lose than a card too.

Yes, it has an upper limit though as I discovered after cycling to the garage to pick up my car with just my phone. Triple cycling joy that day 🙄

Yes this depends on the linked card, the software you are using and sometimes vendor limits. Many banks have a cardless withdrawal from atm option as a backup if there happens to be atm nearby. These can have pretty high limits. There are also card generating apps like cash app where you create a cc number on the fly. In a pinch most vendors can easily split the cost of something across different cards if one is maxing out.

I'd still carry my debit card if I used phone, just in case I lose one while out and about. I think I'd be more likely to notice my phone is missing but more likely to lose the phone in the first place.

I've never tried it in part because I don't trust my phone with it's proprietary software, and I suspect there may be no open source apps to pay with.

A contactless card barely takes up any space. It's not particularly easier to lose either. I've never lost my card; I just keep it in my wallet, in my pocket, just like my phone is in my pocket.

You know what takes up less space? Software on the phone that I'm already carrying.

There have also been occasions where I forget my wallet but still have my phone to pay with.

Easy with one card, but it’s a different story when you have multiple cards. Transit pass, loyalty cards from grocery stores for discounts, credit cards for cash back rewards.

Lazy.

Just plain lazy.

I already have my phone in hand in shops - shopping lists, reminders or even plain taking my mind off the shelves so I won't buy unnecessary shit. Then I get to checkout and...my phone is already in hand. Just boop it and done. No need to dig out wallet from pocket and then dig out card from wallet.

There's no need to carry your cards if you already have your phone.

Also, unlike your wallet, if you lose it you can track it.

Do you not carry cash? My cards go with my cash, which I would carry anyway even if I could pay by phone just in case I'm out and lose one.

I've never used a contactless debit card. I already had a chip and pin debit card. Why are you, and others, using your contactless card to pay?

My Chip+PIN card has an RFID chip. Standard in Germany. Why would I tell, much less trust, google with my banking. Why would I let them skim data and/or a percentage off the transaction. Why would I choose a system with spotty acceptance, whereas I can use my girocard everywhere. It also doubles as 2nd factor for online banking.

I didn't choose, my bank gave me a contactless card when my last chip and pin card expired (the card still has chip and pin which I use when contactless fails).

the app hides the real numbers for the credit card and gives the POS a mock id to make the purchase. it's harder to clone. also you need to unlock the phone for it to work it's an extra layer of protection

Giving a mock card sounds useful. I've looked into that for paying online but I couldn't find an open source way to do it.

I can create a virtual card before every trip, use it via my phone and then cancel it after the trip, never worrying if my card got skimmed anywhere for one.

when you pay using the virtual wallet it automatically makes a mock id to the POS ... at least in my country it does

Ehhh I'm not sure how I got skimmed. Better safe than sorry now, a deleted card is pretty foolproof

For some fucking reason there is zero option for this type of secure virtual card in my country. And I hate it. A friend got skimmed for over $1200 a couple months ago.

I find it super convenient.
Also, it doesn't have a limit. Pretty sure I bought my last car with contactless on my phone, but that was years ago.

I just want to buy a Linux laptop with VoLTE and be done with the product line "smart phone". Unfortunately there is no such device (to my knowledge) and the only device that comes close is PinePhone Pro with docking station.

Agreed. I always loved the idea of the HTC Mini +.

Put the sim in your laptop, that's the connectivity hub. The mini phone piggybacks the LTE connection so you don't have to pull out your laptop for simple calls, texts, navigation or music actions.

There are community made projects for the framework laptop that add LTE using an expansion card

You can put a SIM card in some older thinkpad laptops with that upgrade option. Some thinkpads have the slot for a SIM card but not the internal components to use it. So make sure to do some research if that sounds promising.

There are VOIP phone line services like JMP that give you a number and let you use your computer as a phone. I haven't tried JMP but it always seemed cool and I respect that the developed software running JMP is open source.. The line cost 5$ a month.

Skype also has a similar phone line service. Its not open source like JMP and is part of Microsoft. Usually thats cause for concern for FOSS nuts, but in this context its not a bad thing in some ways. Skype is two decade old mature software with enough financial backing from big M to have real tech support and a dev team to patch bugs, in theory. So probably less headaches getting it running right which is important if you want to seriously treat as a phone line. I think Skype price depends on payment plan and where you live, so not sure on exact cost.

Neither is available in my region and Skype's webpage does not mention making calls, only receiving them.

Why does this call the problem by it's name, monopoly.

Android is another area Google are abusing their monopoly. Sure the phone market is a duopoly, but that doesn't help. Apple is even more locked down and user abusing.

Lots of app companies, like bank apps, think locking their apps to only work on official Android is best for security, but that compounds the monopoly. It's also arguably less secure!

I don't even understand. Am I getting this wrong?? Does the payment processing happen inside the banking app?! Because if so, that's the bigger problem isn't it? All the checks for correctness should happen on the servers that the banking app connects to, not the banking app itself. If that's already the case, then what are they worried about? I'm probably missing something here, but honestly I just don't understand why they would do that.

The app will almost certainly mostly be just wrapping a web interface. But this dedicated browser can provide the site with all the access of an app. The idea will be only this browser can be trusted to access this site and can check the run environment before connects. I'm they'd do the same on the desktop, if they thought it would be swallowed.

I'm running Graphene OS and its been solid. A few issues here and there with app compatibility but it is fantastic.

We’ve started the process of talking to regulators and they’re interested.

Oh that's great, they aren't actually suing since that would be a pretty big money pit, they are going straight to regulators, something can happen.

Really the only thing holding me back from switching to GrapheneOS is that some of my apps fail CTS.

If a proper pathway is defined for custom ROMs I'd switch in a heartbeat.

Hoping this initiative leads to a reasonable outcome.

It's high time we break apart all those large tech companies!

Spin off the Android team into a nonprofit. I'm pretty sure OEMs would be all over funding that.

AND force Alphabet to fund it.

Actually this isn't the pwn you think it is because funding results in favors and control. Remember the OpenAI non-profit and Microsoft? You want it to be funded by more than Alphabet. Ideally you want Alphabet's funding share to not be the largest at all. You want government funding too.

What gets me is the "this phone cant be trusted" message on boot. Implying OEM roms are trustworthy, but nothing i choose or create could possibly be.

Even just being rooted on the stock Pixel rom is a fight. It's a constant cat and mouse game to pass basic and device integrity, but as of recently a lot of us have been able to pass strong integrity as well which has been nice.

Even just being rooted on the stock Pixel rom is a fight.

That, I can see being more of an issue than an unmodified, trusted 3rd party OS. If I remember right, rooting makes the device fail Verified Boot:

It establishes a full chain of trust, starting from a hardware-protected root of trust to the bootloader, to the boot partition and other verified partitions including system, vendor, and optionally oem partitions.

https://source.android.com/docs/security/features/verifiedboot

Fair point. At least with stock rooted as I said there's ways around it and I can pass all play integrity checks and such.

I have a still very capable for my needs "once flagship" stock Samsung phone that is now about 7 years old. I still have a good 2-5 years use with this thing based on hardware performance alone. Google and others have started to conspire to make "1000 cuts" with artificial app compatibility "issues" and the like that try to force my hand to upgrade HW. Most would buy a new phone, but this will inspire me to dig back into the custom Rom flashing of my youth, to get the next 2-5 years I'm deserved from this hardware.

Thank you to all the hardworking people that drive the ROM community to this day.

I really hope they fix this. When support for my old OnePlus 6 stopped, I was going to install a custom ROM until I realized bank apps, and most security-centered apps, wouldn't work. So I ran with an out-if-date, possibly vulnerable OS for a year until (probably) corrosion from liquid exposure finally did the phone in.

Really bad thing to incentivize.

the only reason I've wanted to be rooted in recent years is when I didn't have hotspot on my plan and the most complete way around that was with root.

I think I would like a degoogled Lineage/Graphene OS though

Why is stuff like that included not included in every plan by default? As a European, I can't even imagine paying extra for that. If I want to hotspot my data, my operator can kiss my ass and simply allow it, I'm paying for the data anyway.

In less free countries the provider also provides the handset and locks it all down.

for this case it was a plan that's pretty discounted and also unlimited without hard throttle. they don't want people using it on computers or game consoles probably

As Kevnyon@lemmy.world said: @NetworkOperator: Kiss my ass. I pay your for service. You wanna restrict me, I switch my damn plan. If I use it on my phone streaming 4K stuff from my home server or watch 1GB of data over hot spot on my phone is not their business.

Wtf, plans locking down device features. That's mindblowing.

I love running a custom ROM, but I'm concerned RCS is going to become a deal break for me :(

I love that text messaging will finally not be complete shit between iOS and Android, but RCS is such a shitty locked down protocol.

but I'm concerned RCS is going to become a deal break for me

For what it's worth, I have RCS working with GrapheneOS. I don't think I did anything special, but it did take awhile. I did see stuff on their forum about others having a bigger issue with it, though.

And of course, I prefer Signal, where possible.

Interesting. Do you have Google services installed? I use MicroG, which afaik has no RCS support.

Do you have Google services installed? I use MicroG...

Yes, I have Google Plays Services, Google Services Framework, and the Google Play Store installed, which are all sandboxed. MicroG isn't supported by GrapheneOS.

https://grapheneos.org/usage#sandboxed-google-play

Oh interesting, I didn't know that's how GrapheneOS handles Google services. I'd love to have working NFC pay and RCS, so I'm going to have to take a look at it. Thanks for sharing!

I'd love to have working NFC pay

NFC works. NFC payment is dependent on the app as some block those that fail Play Integrity / Google certification. Google Wallet / Pay does not work for payment because Google blocks it.

I'm aware, I assumed being able to install sandboxed Google services would allow Google Wallet to pass, unlike on CalyxOS, but I might be wrong.

Efforts like Graphene OS face increasing pressure from apps that refuse to run on non-standard Android.

I call those "apps not worth using"

You're right on that, but we can't expect everyone to act the same and ditch such apps all at once. So, it's very important to point the issue out and take action to stop it.

Until the app in question is your banking app

My flamin' hot take still stands. I don't see a need for banking apps when there are web browsers, cards, and cash.

You have never bought anything online? Every bank now requires their app to verify online transactions

I buy things online with my bank and have had to verify 0 transactions.

I have never installed any banking app and I buy stuff online all the time.