Teacher says contract wasn't renewed because he wouldn't use trans students' preferred names
The Wisconsin English teacher, Jordan Cernek, argues in the suit that the district violated his freedom of religion and free speech in mandating the use of the students' preferred names and pronouns.
A high school English teacher is suing a Wisconsin school district, alleging it did not renew his contract last year because he refused to use the preferred names of two transgender students.
Jordan Cernek's federal lawsuit alleges the Argyle School District violated his constitutional and civil rights to be free of religious discrimination and to be able to express himself according to his religious beliefs when it did not renew his contract because he refused to abide by a requirement that teachers use the names or pronouns requested by students.
He better not fucking win. Apart from it being bigoted against trans kids, this opens the door for teachers to give kids whatever insulting nicknames they want. Call the clumsy kid the r-word? Don't violate his free speech! Call the black kid the n-word? The Book of Mormon clearly says black people are inferior! Don't violate his freedom of religion!
Put Elon back in school and call him Cis.
No need. He's already getting schooled on his own platform daily by trans, intersex, nonbinary, and cis people of all ages, sexualities, races, and nationalities.
He's a unifier: uniting the world in opposition to his bigotry and general obnoxiousness!
I don't think he is capable of learning, sadly.
True, but you don't have to in order to be schooled.
I believe that being schooled requires being humiliated and/or punished. I don't think he's up to the former, and I'm not sure who will do the latter.
He better not fucking win because a public school teacher needs to check their religion at the door. The SC said that private businesses can practice their religion as part of commerce but this is the public sector. Kim Davis lost her case about refusing the same sex marriage license due to "her religion" and this should follow.
Only the Spanish teacher is allowed to do that. Michael -> Miguel.
Yo soy Cancun!
We had a similar case in the UK, and the teacher lost their case after taking it to an employment tribunal. Hopefully this one goes the same direction.
Good, fuck off. He can find a new job where he's not expected to treat his fellow humans with the respect they deserve. Being wrong about the nature of reality doesn't grant the right to be an asshole even if they sincerely believe that it should.
Since I realised it, I have never forgotten that applying basic decency to all living beings is a revolutionary act that will be resisted in various ways, including violence, by those who uphold a status quo based on forced inequity.
Sucks for the violent
I mean, good. If he isn't going to do even the single most basic thing to connect with his students and meet them where they are, how can he ever be an effective teacher?
Right? Some of these kids see their teachers more than their actual parents. Could you imagine having to deal with such blatant disrespect every day from someone that is meant to be your role model?
I can, I did, it fucked me up mentally. I'm 41 now and still suffer some of the consequences of the abuse by my peers and one especially vicious teacher.
My condolences. I'm sorry that happened to you.
Idk man. When I was in school before everyone started coming out as trans and such, all my teachers would still ask if there was a different name you preferred on like the first day of school. And they suck to it. It didn't matter if the student was gay, straight, trans, or whatever; they still had a preferred name they liked to be called by, the teachers asked, and they respected it. I'd like to think those teachers of mine would continue this practice and not have an issue with it, but you never really know.
That was my experience as well, but then I grew in San Francisco, which is like the gay hippie commie Mecca that the Christofascists jerk themselves off on hating. Plus we had a lot of minority students with potentially difficult to pronounce ethnic names, so that might also have been a factor.
Makes sense. My personal experience with this is coming from a small Midwest city in elementary and middle school. By the time we got to high school, the teachers just knew because it was in your record by that point.
Teacher here; this is the first thing I do on day one with new students! You want to build a classroom community of mutual respect; failure to do so makes for a hostile classroom and a wasted year.
I'm not trans.
I hate my legal name. I will change it when I'm ready to do the paperwork. Until then, everyone calls me the name I prefer.
I would have been a thorn in this teacher's side. I'm not answering to that name, asshole. I'm not writing it on any documents. I'm allowed to tell you what to call me for whatever reason I want. My mother's best friend, who I was named for, was an abusive fucking cunt to me and every time you say her name I'm reminded of her.
What a douche. Stop policing names. The only names worth policing are the ones that are remarkably dumb.
Probably wouldn't have a problem calling Michael Mike. Would they have a problem calling someone by their birth name if it didn't follow traditional gender norms? (I knew a girl named Michael)
I'm reminded of the story of a woman who found out a co-worker was trans and insisted on calling them by their birth-name in order to "honor their mother" despite being told by supervisors and HR not to.
This same woman was married and got very upset when called by her maiden name.
She did not see the contradiction.
Every once in a while I'm confronted with something like this and I have to remind myself... lots of very stupid people in the world.
nah. I think there's room. religious shit should be banned from public use (as in, use by public institutions) , and I don't think we should have a robert e lee or nathan B forest high school any more than we should have an erwin rommel elementary or a reinhardt heidrich middle school.
The part of the gospel of Luke where he writes that Jesus said "oh and trans people? Not a fan, we shouldn't respect em." always did strike me as kinda out of the blue, but it is in there...
God hates figs. Everyone knows that. But while researching the a joke to reply to you with, I learned that apparently, figs are jews. Who knew!!
Never did come up with a joke.
(Ephesians 6:5-10)
The direct words of Jesus, not the Old Testament god.
This was a man who told people to give up their worldly possessions... But what, giving up but concept of owning humans as slaves was just a step too far?
What a bunch of bullshit. Disgusting, and inexcusable.
That’s Paul, not Jesus, though I guess to hear the last 1700 years of Christians tell it, there’s not much difference.
The bible would surely never support people changing their names to reflect their social role either, like when Jesus gave Simon the name Cephas or Peter to reflect his position as the rock the church was founded on
Yep, and good riddance.
If students do not feel respected, then they will neither give respect nor learn. You call a kid what they want to be called. Without a sense of shared community, the classroom will fail.
Additionally, there is not a religion on earth that says you can't use people's nicknames, preferred names, chosen names, or whatever. This guy can go eat a bag of Dicks.
We had two kids my age that wanted to be called by Final Fantasy character names. AFAIK, no one had any problem with it.
I had a classmate that hated her name that went by Peaches. She would politely correct each teacher each year, and it was done.
The only time I ever saw her have an issue was with a shitheel sub who refused to call her that, and the class literally revolted. Started yelling "thats her name" and "what's your problem!" We just brutalized that dude for the whole class hour about it. Never saw him again.
It was great.
Don't know what happened to "love thy neighbour"/The Golden Rule, but some Christians sure are struggling with that part of the Bible.
Most Christians have always struggled with that part.
Setting aside religion, I used to have a shitty boss who would never shut up about how the platinum rule (treat people how they want to be treated) is better than the golden rule (treat people how you want to be treated), but then would proceed to never actually follow it and never really understood how he treated people.
People suck in general at just giving a shit about others. They just want to sound and feel like they give a shit without actually following through.
People who claim that that's not already part of the golden rule don't understand the golden rule anyway.
What's the platinum rule?
I like it, sorta suggested it unknowingly previously :D
I hope you find some better humans!
Protip, they probably aren't at church.
That's the church modernization strategy right there.
Here are the rules you should follow the rules.
Preacher, I disagree with the rules. The rules make me feel icky.
You should just do your best end repent and give back in another ways. By the way this month's tidings are a little light can you help us out.
Gave my parents the excuse they needed to never have to face everyone they've hurt.
How convenient. I'll just sort out my abusive childhood myself I guess.
To be fair, there's a lot of contradictions in there regarding how one should treat other humans.
For example, Jesus endorsed slavery, which doesn't seem very "love thy neighbor" to me...
Small point of clarification - God endorsed slavery. Jesus doesn't say anything about it.
Big point of clarification: the people who wrote the bible endorsed slavery.
Which is a bit weird, since a couple of the authors were apparently slaves.
They're the same guy.
It depends on the denomination, interestingly. Jehovah's Witnesses see Jesus as a created being, separate from and subordinate to god the Father, and view the Holy Spirit as god's active force rather than a person. Mormons believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as separate beings united in purpose, rather than one god in three persons.
I'm willing to bet this guy believes Jesus is God, it's the predominant belief in the religion regardless of a few sects having their own fanfictions.
You love them so much that you just have to own them.
What religion requires you to use someone's birth name? It can't be Christianity since people always go around calling that one dude Jesus when his birth name was Yeshua.
Plus Jesus loved renaming people so there's that.
Also, As a catholic or protestant you get to choose a confirmation name.
Not all protestants do this, BTW.
If your religion tells you to be an asshole to kids, find a new religion. Weird how there are many Christians who don't have this problem, almost like this is not how normal people act but we have an asshole looking for an excuse 🧐
Also weird that they have no problems with that same religion being a hotbed for pedophiles.
ThAt DoESnt KoUNt!!!!1
every stain is a pedo. that's my theory. they just need abused repressed ashamed children to rape.
Let's all say it together.
Your Rights. Do Not. Override. The Rights. Of Others.
It's a far smaller imposition to use a preferred name than it is to be dead named.
It's discrimination because he can't discriminate others?
Freedom of discrimination for me, but not for thee?
then I have a right to sit outside churches and take pot shots every sunday when they let out. saying I can't is discrimination! AND infringement on my second amendment rights! and saying I should be STOPPED from doing this, rather than just not allowed, is infringement of my fourth amendment rights!
edit: not actually planning this. you can tell because it would require waking up before noon. just that I have the constitutional right to.
The USSC has ruled that there are limitations on free speech in public schools. This includes things that will significantly disrupt the general operation of the school, what is produced in the name of the school (such as a student news paper), and allows for disciplinary action, for both students and staff, in regards to maintaining professional, respectful, conduct. So the guy doesn't actually have the right to knowingly be disrespectful to students, or other staff members.
okay but these fucking cultists have got away with much worse pretty regularly, and I expect this one to get away with this, so im still going to argue for my constitutional right (though not necessarily ability) to shoot up a church without imposed consequences.
Sounds like a bigot was fired for bigot shit
Whelp, Walker neutered our teachers' unions, and the conservatives pushed for being a right to work state, so here are some unexpected consequences of that. They do not have to tell him why his contract wasn't renewed, and now he doesn't have a union backing his position. Plus, he wasn't even "fired," just not renewed.
F this teacher for creating an environment of hate.
Teachers don't even have a union? WHY DO YOU HATE YOURSELVES SO MUCH??
Because unions are villainous commie organizations who do nothing but sap your paycheck and eat god fearing children. The worst part is they have a better villain laugh than the politicians. Really they just had to be stopped!
Republicans: "We need to police what's taught in schools! Leftists shouldn't have the right to teach whatever they like to our children! I don't want my tax dollars being spent filling their heads with woke garbage!"
Republicans when a teacher gets suspended for teaching their views to children: "But muh freeze peach! I have the right to teach whatever I like to children!"
Wilholt's Law proves true once again
For people who haven't heard it called that:
Your pastor or preacher told you to do it, not your religion. Pretty sure there's no explicit mention how to use or not use pronouns or using someone's preferred name in the bible. Language is just arbitrary, made up bullshit anyways. Let's reverse it, his name is no longer Jordan Cernek using pronouns he/his/him. Now, it Jerkin Cumneck with the special pronoun of shitstain.
Jerkin Cumneck is a dumbass. Shitstain shouldn't bring shitstain's political views to work. Jerkin should teach at a private christian academy because shitstain can be an obnoxious asshole over there without having shitstain's fragile little mind broken every time shitstain has to use words that shitstain doesn't like.
"Teacher suing school after being fired for being purposely hurtful to students for ReLiGeOuS rEsSoNs"
If he can't show common decency for his students, he absolutely needs to go.
Ah, but isn't it persecution to tell someone who has an ideology of hatred against an outgroup to show decency to them?
At least, that's what they're told from the pulpit and from behind the presenting desk.
"It's against my religion to use preferred pronouns"
Also that religion: hi my pronouns are He/Him CAPITALIZED please. Please capitalize them when you use them.
🤷♀️
I don't view capitalized pronouns as a different set of pronouns.
But you still care about their capitalization regardless
Me? I don't. I'm not Christian.
If you only refer to one being in the entire universe with a capital H when calling that being He, I'd say it was a different pronoun from he.
I don't use uppercase pronouns when talking about gods because I don't worship them. That doesn't mean I'm misgendering them.
It was a general 'you' and you (specific this time) said it wasn't a different set of pronouns. You (again, specifically you personally) weren't talking about misgendering.
"He" is clearly a different pronoun from "he" if only one being in the universe is referred to as "He."
Fun fact: when your religious beliefs include a mandate to trample on the rights of others based on pure bigotry, you and your obnoxious interpretation of bronze age fairy tales can fuck off.
I also am unsure of where in the Bible it states that pronouns are immutable.
It's worth noting that, in Jewish traditions, the rabbis have identified eight distinct genders, four of which could be described as trans. So this whole "man and woman, that's it and you're stuck with it" nonsense is a distinctly Christian thing. https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-eight-genders-in-the-talmud/
And Native Americans have 5 genders.
Weird that entirely separate and different societies all come to the conclusion that there should be more than just 2 genders that are locked in at birth.
It's almost as if each person is unique and shoehorning people into only one possible way of living based on your sex is archaic and holding us back from living our most fulfilling lives.
Maybe it's one of those wacky rules in Leviticus? 🤷
Genesis 5: 2 says "Male and female he created them, and he blessed them."
I like to point to the word 'and', just to make sure Xtians notice it doesn't say 'or'.
In an English translation. I'd be interested to see what subtleties in the original text didn't make it over.
God changes pronouns in Genesis:
https://lectionary.blog/2019/02/14/god-grammar-pronouns/
Idk, but the lady on Fox said it was against my religion, she sounded really sure of herself, and it lines up nicely with my bigoted personality. I think this one's safe to just take at face value and assume it's part of my religion. It's what I'm told Jesus would do!!
When you forget a trinity makes your god he/him/they.
Booohooo they don't let me discriminate against people I don't like! So intolerant!
Imagine thinking religious freedom means you have the right to a religious society
Just wanna point out, noone is threatening the teachers right to be a dick, just lost his government job over it. This is basic seperation of church and state. A member of a racist religion would be fired for trying to only teach white kids.
He wasn’t even fired, he had his contract end. Fucking boohoo.
It's pretty weak to begin with to claim it's his religious right to be an asshole to people. If some kid was named Alphonzious and wanted people to call him Al, but you insisted on using the name he hates instead, that's just you being a huge dick, and it's the school's prerogative to fire you for it. Gender doesn't even come into it.
Go ahead and claim your religion requires you to be an obnoxious toolbag bully to children. Good luck finding work, shitheel.
Good. Who the fuck wants their children being taught by intolerant bigots? What kind of example is that setting for them? Freaks like this shouldn't be allowed anywhere near kids.
My interpretation is there are many reasons why his contract wasn't renewed. I think he's trying to make it political by claiming he's being cancelled. He is shitty. He doesn't deserve to be a teacher. I just think this is his way to go on the attack instead of having to defend his record.
I could be wrong, but no fucking way we're getting the whole story just listening to him.
didn't know being an asshole was a religious freedom, at this rate domestic terrorism is going to be covered under religious freedom, jesus christ.
also, separation of church and state, gotta love it.
Misgendering someone is an insult like calling someone names, or bad mouthing someone. There is no fundamental right to insult other people, even when you rationalize it with beliefs that happen to be protected.
For example,
I might believe whatever I want about my neighbor, eg that he is a fascist cunt, and I am allowed even to say so in private.
But saying it to his face is like a breach of the rule of law, as is saying so to others. I might think he should be lynched daily, but saying so might well be a crime.
You might even say that ignoring him in the elevator when it is customary to greet your neighbor, although not illegal, it is considered just rude by society standards.
So at the very least we have a teacher being systematically rude to his students for religious reasons (or "Gender critical", all the same), thus making him a dick. See my recent comment on Maya Forstater for some quite similar case, only this asshole is aggravated because he is in a position to scar kids.
Even if your belief is protected like religion, or you push it to be (TERFism), you have no right to violate another person's dignity because of your beliefs.
Bigots are bitter about it, and that is why they want to destroy the constitution and the rule of law to have their way. By extension they are against some basic principles like freedom of religion (of others).
Plus, there is research that shows that respecting pronouns is a mental health protector for trans and non-binary teenagers, so this make the teacher a perpetrator of demonstrably abusive behavior towards his students. For these reasons I believe he was quite rightly discontinued, and I would believe the same if he were outright terminated.
arguably there is a right to insult people, but people who insult others aren't a protected class for employment purposes.
Depends on the jurisdiction. In many countries directly insulting someone in his face is a misdemeanor or similar level violation.
in america it's protected under the first amendment, however hate speech is not protected, unsure whether or not that extends to queer people or not at the moment, but there has been a push for it in the past.
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/315/568/ fighting words aren't protected.
technically insults are protected under free speech, but there is significant incentive to prevent that from being free speech within the grounds of a school, a state funded one especially.
Talking professionally, insulting people is just bad, and you shouldn't do that, it's a good way to get canned.
i feel like it's also worth including that two parties might have a deep division between them, however that doesn't stop them from discussing it, at the end of the day we all believe stupid shit, and non of it really matters, the only thing that matters is that we don't kill each other, and if both parties can manage that while holding opposing beliefs this would be a functional default state for society. Specifically the one that america was founded upon. However it's also important to remember the consequences of inaction as well.
even if we go with a religious perspective, Christianity doesn't tell you to lynch queers. Or people of other religious backgrounds. You can literally just not be an asshole about it. Just because you dont believe queer people are real doesn't mean you have to vocalize it.
If not, you can always convert to one of the Satanistic religions and call the teacher some choice insults. Then you claim this is how things are done in your religion.
remember kids, you can start a satanism club in your school if you so please to do so.
SCOTUS already gave presidential immunity to it and espionage.
for the president, yeah.
Freedom of religion = freedom to be a bigoted jerk
Sounds like he was actually kicked for being disrespectful. You can use your freedom of speech to be an ass surprisingly enough
No "personal freedom" to violate the rights of others should exist when you are acting on behalf of the government, just like you can't advertise AT&T's service while on a call working tech support for Verizon and not expect to get fired.
I’m a transgender teacher that can’t work in public schools because I’m trans.
In fact, Oklahoma has executive ordered trans people out of existence.
Can I get news coverage please?
Bring a lawsuit, I guess? I worry it could go up to the supreme court to decide if the law banning you from working in a school is constitutional, and I don't trust our current supreme court with that decision
I’ve reached out to multiple federal agencies, and no one can agree on who has jurisdiction. And my local ACLU won’t do shit, because as you pointed out, the Supreme Court is itching to set lots of fucked up precedents.
I took out TEACH grants - agreed to serve as a teacher for four years. After three years they ripped the ground out from underneath me.
Super shitty, my friend. I'm sorry. I lost my teaching job when I came out too, but I worked for a sort of alternative Christian high school/middle school with like 30 students max so I kinda knew mine was coming.
That sucks, but I can't say I was surprised to hear it was in Oklahoma. I'm sorry you have to live in such a backwards craphole of a state.
those poor students felt awful considering not being able to correct him on top. So, highly likely a horrible teacher to begin with
What part of the Bible discussed gender identity???
"Jesus never mentioned pronouns!"
Literally Jesus: I am he.
The part at the beginning where God turned the rib of a man into a person and that person identified herself as Eve.
You’re free to say whatever you want. Nobody’s stopping you. But if you choose to work a job where 80% of it is talking, don’t be surprised when your performance is measured by what you say.
Unsurprisingly this Jordan seems to be following another Jordan's footsteps ... "Jordan Peterson, the self-proclaimed anti-political correctness warrior whose refusal to use gender-neutral pronouns has sparked a vicious battle at the University of Toronto campus." Archived source
Ironically, Jordan became seen as a gender-neutral name in the 1970s and onwards.
Lobsterman would judge their gender by the length of their hair then I guess. :p
Which has made bigots named Jordan increasingly unhappy ever since
Ha ha 'burnt peter'.
Please tell me which religion he is, as no where in the bible does it say "Trans people are evil, don't believe the woke agenda", it does say however, "Love thy neighbour".
What an unwiped asshole. I certainly hope his teaching accreditation is yanked as well.
Thomas Jefferson wrote that there should be "a wall of separation of Church and State." Meaning no religion in government matters. Meaning, no tax breaks, no National Cathedral, no "In God We Trust", no "one nation under God."
Of course the people who scream about what the Founding Fathers wanted tend to ignore what the Founding Fathers really said.
to be fair, in jefferson's case, ignoring the shit he said in favor of the shit he did is pretty well justified; they contradict each other pretty consistently.
"Your contract WAS renewed, but I don't think we used your information, like your name or identity or anything. I'm not sure how we referred to you in the paperwork, so I guess we won't be able to find it."
After careful deliberation, we have decided that Jordan is a female name and are unable to renew your contract until you have completed an official name change to Joseph
Good. I hope the court throws out his case, and I hope he dies of natural causes, soon
Good.
Trans people should start their own religion and then claim bigots are violating their right to freedom of religion or whatever
The Satanic Temple's Third Tenet states that "One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone" and they will go to court for you to defend that.
Man how hard it must be to suck it up, and just do something you don't agree with because your job said to. What a fucking child of an adult.
This isn't a new debate, he chose to work in a field where he was gonna be asked to do this eventually. I have to call people "valued customers" all day and don't agree with it, I don't see how this is any harder for him to adapt to in his field. (Not that pronoun requests are frivolous and dumb, they're easy to just....do)
Byeee
Jordan Cernek. Sounds like a fitting name.
I bet his mom called him "Jordy" when he was little
I don't see what the problem is here
Oh no.
Anyway
Good.
Someone should start going by the name, "I owe you 5 dollars". It's a fool-proof way to get rich quick.
Seems like this whole problem could have been avoided by just using everyone’s last names.
Seems like this whole problem could have been avoided by just using everyone’s last names.
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As an employee of the school, the only names he should be using are those registered in its official documents. Personal desires should not matter for either side.
Every teacher I ever had in public school throughout the 90s and early 00s asked students to tell them if they had a nickname or a name they preferred to be called on the first day of class. And then they would do their best to adhere to it.
Every single one. Nobody gave a shit. There were more important things going on like, I dunno, educating children?
Most of my teachers in the schools i went to never used a nickname for their students. Those that used nicknames were the exception, not the rule. And guess what happened to them. Parents complained of favouritism and the grades they gave were questioned.
Every single time. People do give a shit about the non-educating part and it's an issue schools have to deal with when they'd rather not.
Confirmation bias. Got it
Every teacher, instructor, professor I've had from kindergarten through graduate school across three states and as many decades has asked every class I've been in if a student has a preferred name over the name they're officially registered with. Every one made a note in their register to call them as such. Refusing to call a student by their preferred name is a new level of pettiness at best and discrimination at worst. A teacher's job is to make their classroom a place where children feel welcome and safe. Regardless of whatever their personal views are. So, I say with all sincerity and with no irony, fuck your feelings.
Is that why you're such a delightful and happy person?
Ninjabard exudes more joy right now than you do.
Bullshit
Thank you for the manure. It will fertilize the crops nicely.
Was this in the educational institutions of North Korea?
No, in Karensville. Why do you ask?
Heh, Karen.
Are you an annoying PTA parent that tried to ban Harry Potter? That would explain so much
Hey! Shut up! Harry Potter was an international treasure before Rowling went crazy.
But I would be an annoying PTA parent.
Are you telling me that if a kid named Timmy wants me to call him Tim, I should only be calling him Timmy? Fuck that noise.
If you call him Tim bad things could happen. It's a slippery slope to child abuse
Edit: /s
If you're the teacher of a classroom and it's not part of your contract to call Timmy as Tim, then little Timmy can go legally change his name to Tim.
Do you realize how disconnected from reality you sound? Kids' legal names aren't as important as you think they are. Honestly, neither are adults' legal names.
If someone comes up to you (outside of a school) and says their name is Will, do you say you're only going to call them William? If yes, wow, you are so weird. If not, why does it matter inside of a school and not outside?
Your teachers seem to have failed you as your reading comprehension is lacking.
In school, a teacher is an employee. It's their job. Outside of working hours, they're not an employee. It's their personal time. Job, personal time, very different things. If you expect them not to be this way, you're kinda being an asshole towards them as a person.
To take the IT guy as an example. Do you expect to call them outside of their working hours to come fix your internet and call you pet names in the process? If so, wow do I have news for you!
Edit: Talk about disconnected....
A reading comprehension insult from someone who didn't even answer my actual question?
Thank Christ you're just working at a school and not an actual teacher.
I did answer it, you simply failed to recognize it as such.
A school is an organization with a specific purpose. A teacher is an employee of that organization working there under a contract within a set of rules. The students are the beneficiaries of the services that organization offers. The teachers obligation is to provide those services as specified in their contract. Beyond that and other than the laws of the city and country they reside in, they are not obligated to provide any other service that is requested of them.
Demanding something that is beyond their obligations and expecting them to accomplish it unconditionally is an assholeish thing to do.
Ps: You presume too much. Just stuck to the written words and refrain the imagination that flows far beyond them. It will serve you better in the long run.
My guy, your writing and communication skills clearly just suck if you need to keep clarifying with pretentious drivel. "It will serve you better in the long run," as if you know how anything in the real world works.
Teachers who don't respect their students' human dignity shouldn't get their contracts renewed. They're not obligated to be a swollen dickhole since that service was not requested of them. You've simply failed to recognize that as such, I suppose.
Uh huh. So calling students by their actual name is not respecting their human dignity now.
You seem lovely as well, so I'll explain it more clearly, because you seem to have fallen into a hole. This little thing you seem so fond of is a fun thing called entitlement. And it's fun because it need no explanation, it's all there in the word itself. En-title-ment. Or in other words, pretentious drivel.
You have a name and it is being used in its exact form. That is in fact respecting your dignity as a human being. Anything beyond that is s privilege, not an obligation. And anyone can choose not to provide that privilege as that is their right just as it is yours in return.
You're not wrong though. You don't have to like it or the person who does that and the teacher's contract doesn't have to be renewed if they don't fit in. But any expectations that aren't included in the contract can and should be challenged.
You seem to place parental choices and legal contracts over personal preference. Maybe you don't care so much about human dignity in terms of being able to express one's own identity, at least when it comes to children.
Did you not have an identity as a child, other than the one your parents picked out for you, as defined in a legal contract that your school recorded?
The human being didn't choose their name at the time of birth. They were not able to produce language, and are not legally awarded have the capacity to express a choice (babies cannot sign contracts).
The human being is now older, and can now choose. That has precedence over a choice made for them.
Yes. Outside of school. Outside of the classroom. Outside of where I was graded. Outside of the exams.
And they should do so, officially. It is an option and they should take advantage of it.
How the fuck do you expect a child with unsupportive parents or in certiab states to change their name legally? Thats simply not a fiar expectation, and forcing the whims of shitty parents and stares (anything unsupportive in the case of trans people we are obviously discussing is indeed shitty- this is not up for debate) is a dick move.
Are you LARPing being autistic? Because, as an autistic teacher of autistic students, I find your ignorant appeals to neutral logic pretty galling.
Good for you for being an autistic teacher for autistic children. I presume you were hired specifically for that purpose with the required resources given in mind.
Nope. I didn't know I was autistic when I got this job. The class is not a special needs class. Children might be found to be autistic while in the class. Children might be judged by me and by trained support staff to have a high likelihood of being autistic without an official diagnosis, because CAMHS is a very overburdened system.
Another wrong assumption that you have made.
I presumed incorrectly then. Thank you for clarifying.
The obligations of a teacher aren't just word of mouth or unspoken rules. Going beyond the obligations required by your institution makes you, it or both liable for blame when something goes wrong.
Not everyone wants to shoulder that blame, not everyone should be forced to shoulder that blame if they didn't sign up for it.
Your institution has policy, trained staff and wiling teachers, all explained beforehand. But that's just your case. You can't expect everyone to conform the same way when each of their circumstances may be different.
I've given students food many times, because they were hungry. I'm not a kitchen. I'm not a fridge. I'm not employed as a caterer.
I haven't been fired for it, nor told off.
You seem to live in a very scared headspace, where if you don't follow rules perfectly you will be fired. Is this because your behaviour is very strange, and you have to mask very heavily to not get in trouble? If so, that's not a feature of the world for everyone else, it's related more to your own individual differences.
The fact that you think a pet name and a preferred name are the same thing shows how much you understand what you're talking about.
For both the beauty of understanding and its ugliness is that the more you think you understand something, the less you understand it.
The metaphor was bad, just take the L.
I see. You understand it perfectly then.
Yes. Phone autocorrect. Thank you.
It's my job, as a teacher, to support my students. I do this by calling them by their preferred name if they ask.
Feel free to complain about that.
Your job as a teacher is whatever the contract asks of you. Anything you do beyond that is a choice that might not be supported by the administration of the school that employs you.
I mean, good for you for being supportive of your students. But if your school decides you shouldn't do that and you refuse, well bye.
Well, the administration of the school in op clearly felt that the teachers religiously motivated insistence on being a dick violated their contract; so where's that leave you lol
It leaves me at my original post. This particular teacher's dumb reasons doesn't change the idea in itself.
Sure the teacher was dumb, sure the institution didn't agree. But it's just the circumstances of this case. Can't say things will be the same every time, when the circumstances will be different.
Sure, but the problem is that leaves states and districts open to enforce a form of bigotry
They are always open to enforce a form of bigotry. So your focus should be instead on that and prevent reaching this situation. Or what? You expect to stop a series of arsons with one bucket of water?
You say this like I cant believe to things at once
How I 'legally changed' my name:
I told everyone that knew me by my old name what my new name was.
This involved sending letters to places of business I had an account with, e.g. bank and utilities.
Do you have to do that for a nickname?
So, if Timmy says "I prefer Tim", is that going against a 'contract'? Doesn't seem so.
Just because Timmy prefers Tim doesn't mean everyone has to call him Tim. Maybe the other person prefers to call him by the given name.
It's not up to someone else what they call me. It's up to me.
Nah, I'm pretty sure anyone can call you whatever they like.
So the name on your birth certificate is "lath"?
On Lemmy, I have registered with that nickname and as such I expect it to be used.
Is that so hard to comprehend?
In school, the child asked to be referred to by a name, and as such they expect it to be used.
Is that so hard to comprehend?
Not if it isn't the one they registered with.
You have a creepily excessive regard for rules. Humans are more important than rules - that's human decency.
Yes they are. We just disagree on proportion.
Im so glad you have insight on this. You see, I get a lot of international students in my class and I’ve had to deal with this type of thing a lot. Maybe you can help me out.
Let’s say I have a polish student whose name is “Żółć”, which is somewhat difficult to pronounce in English. After a few failed attempts, he just tells me he prefers “George” because it sounds close enough, he likes that it sounds like English, and is easier for everyone to pronounce. His English-speaking friends call him George as well.
Do I…
I could really use some help with this since it happens all the time. Please let me know what you think.
Learn to pronounce their name. Duh.
OR, just bear with me…
Call them the name they’d prefer to be called because it’s easier than making a scene and nobody actually gaf.
Never give up, never surrender!
You could use more time outside, and less watching movies
They aint surrendering bro, just on the other side lmfaooo
That counts as one.
It really doesnt. People dont necessarily default to your side
So they have to default on yours instead?
They didnt default to it, they specifically advocated that stance
Uh no. Not that hard to call a person by the name they prefer. Don't be a bigot.
Bigotry has nothing to do with it. The name registered is the one that should be used. If your registered name with the school is Richard, but you wanna be called Private Dick, then register it. If you can't, then that's another issue entirely.
Hi, I'm a teacher.
The names I use are the ones that make the students comfortable. Trans student with parents who don't accept it? Student is more important.
If I change your name in the school system to "Cunty McNonce" - and, obviously, I have access - would it be okay to use that name? After all, that's the record of official documents that the school uses to confirm a name.
What you're actually saying is that the personal desires of parents to control their children are more important than anything else. In human society, there's generally some level of personal desire getting in the way: eliding that is a means to pretend that those who have power are more ethical than they really are.
I'm sure he would have no problem calling a, let's just say, James David JD if that is what James David preferred. This is just bigotry for the sake of hate
I'd rather they didn't. As an official, fraternizing individually only creates problems overall. A teacher should teach a class objectively.
However, any other extracurricular activities should be separate from regular classes and the relationship is more tight knit, so in that circumstance, nicknames wouldn't be an issue.
Ir you don't separate work from personal life, you're going to have a bad time.
As a fucking educator, you should be connecting to every single student in your classroom on a personal level, or you're unredeemably shit at your job.
Bro sounds like he was part of Hitler's Youth
I think they might have grown up in North Korea. They have an excessive respect for arbitrary social contracts.
A good chunk of a teacher's job is to build appropriate relationships with your students. Students don't want to learn from someone they dislike, and you have significantly better learning outcomes when the students feel safe, accepted, and cared about. Appropriate nicknames, like Tim for Timothy, help in that relationship building. I don't know what your position is at that school, but Wisconsin teachers are literally taught stuff like this in college so that we know how to manage a classroom with the best learning outcomes and the fewest number of behavioral disruptions. We are taught how to keep those relationships appropriate and healthy, although much of that is just common sense.
Yes, you should separate work and home life for both your own sanity and for modeling good boundaries and work-life balance. But that doesn't mean you have to drop your decency at the door. At the end of the day, the goal is learning, and not being a douche is one of the easiest ways to get to that goal.
Extracurricular activities are an extension of these same principles, not an exception or something with a different set of standards. I think you might be mixing up appropriate relationship building with inappropriate fraternizing, and I'm concerned that you are having difficulty finding that line.
Your expectations of teachers and the resources actually given to them are so far apart from each other that you need to take a step back and actually provide them what is needed, not just your expectations of their personalized behavior in regards to how they should treat their students.
Teachers, parents and the school need to work together and give the support kids need. But what it's actually like is that both school and parents dump on teachers with their own expectations on how students should be handled, which often contradict each other.
Teachers don't actually have to do all of that though. Their job is to impart their knowledge of the subject they were hired for. Everything else is just extra, an option they should be allowed to refuse.
If you want them to do more, then pay them appropriately. Give them the equipment, the training and the support.
I definitely agree that there aren't enough resources given to teachers, but the expectation of using common decency to reach the goal of educating our students is not too high of an expectation. Focus on the end goal. How you get there can vary (assuming it's appropriate), but you are still trying to reach the goal of educating the students. If your teaching style is prohibiting people from reaching that goal, why wouldn't you change it?
It's nice to think that as an English teacher, I only have to worry about how well they can interpret the modern applications of the lessons in Macbeth, or whatever literature we're studying, but in reality, teachers are teaching a whole heck of a lot more than their specific subject area. We're simultaneously modeling how to behave appropriately, teaching how to navigate complex social situations, and mentoring students on how to achieve their goals and deal with set backs. Teachers have always worn more than one hat. It's not only an expectation for the job; it's an absolute requirement for success.
Should they earn more money for having to do all of that? YES! That's why we've been complaining about the low pay and lack of resources for at least 40 years. The effort and skills are non-negotiable. Kids shouldn't get a crappy education just because some politicians are using their teachers' wages as political leverage. People go into education knowing that the pay sucks, but they actually care about other people and future generations. They don't go into just for the paycheck, and I don't know a single educator who wouldn't put in some extra effort to help a student succeed.
You're basing a lot of your opinion on the assumption that kids come to school ready to learn and healthy. The reality is that parents and home lives come in a wide variety of flavors. Some parents do exactly what you said: dump on teachers with their own expectations on how students should be handled. But others don't get involved at all. Some don't care about their child's life beyond how it affects them. Some are so busy working to make ends meet that they don't have time to be much more than an absent parent. No matter what life the student has, it's still my job to give them a quality education, so of that means giving them a granola bar or calling Joe Suzie, then that's what it takes.
We're basically fighting for the same thing here: better pay, better resources, and support for teachers so that students can get a better education. The difference is that I don't think students should get the short end of the stick for something they can't change (i.e. low pay), whereas you'd rather a teacher not do extra because they aren't getting paid to do extra. But my method reaches the end goal of educating students well, and yours instead basically says, "Reach the goal or don't. I don't really care since I did my part."
You are right.
But that's a choice each teacher has to have. Because just like everyone else involved, teachers are only human. Each has their own motivation for teaching and doing more than what's needed because it's the right thing to do simply isn't good enough a reason to force them. Not everyone wants to be a hero.
Hi, I'm a teacher.
You're not instructing non-reactive objects using units of learning that are produced mechanically from blocks of pure fact.
It's an inter-personal job.
An interpersonal job doesn't require personalized care. It helps and it's recommended, but it's not obligated.
And what's wrong with being a non-creative object for about an hour or so? It helps clear and reorganize the mind.
You come across as an autistic person who masks to such extremes that you lose all contact with being human. If this is the case, please get support.
What is your government name so I don't accidentally call you the wrong thing?
I don't work for the government and neither am I here as an employee, so have fun with that thought for a while and see what you can learn from it.
That's what I figured
You appear to be imagining that using a nickname will turn into sleepovers at some point.
Just invent robots to teach children. Then they can be 'objective' in exactly the way you prefer, as you can train them up from the facts as you see them... without you realising that your 'objectivity' is in fact a personal preference.
If it's a personal preference then it's one they aren't allowed to make apparently.
Hi, I'm a teacher.
The names I use are the ones that make the students comfortable. Trans student with parents who don't accept it? Student is more important.
If I change your name in the school system to "Cunty McNonce" - and, obviously, I have access - would it be okay to use that name? After all, that's the record of official documents that the school uses to confirm a name.
What you're actually saying is that the personal desires of parents to control their children are more important than anything else. In human society, there's generally some level of personal desire getting in the way: eliding that is a means to pretend that those who have power are more ethical than they really are.
Good for you, but that is your choice.
If you changed my name illegally, that's how it will be treated.
What I'm saying is that legal names are legal for a reason. If you don't like your legal name, change it. If you can't, well, that's a whole nother problem.
Your imagination is wild.
Can a child do that yet? If no, expecting them to do so denies them freedom of identity and expression. Abusing children used to be 'legal'. People disagreed, even though it was 'legal'. It was made more and more 'illegal'. In Kohlberg's Stages of Moral Development, I seem to be at the post-conventional stage (reasoning based on personal ethics) when responding to tasks designed to identify these stages. Where are you in those stages? Your strict adherence to legal records over human expression seems to give a clue.
Your lack of imagination is boring, and leads you to think and express yourself in a mechanical, anti-human way.
You're all talk. If you want the laws to change then organize and elect to change them. If you can't do that, why are you even here? All you do is bicker. "Ah! Freedom of expression" You want it and expect it, but don't act to ensure it where it matters, which is legally.
You're complaining the laws are corrupt. Uncorrupt them. Why are you here arguing with me when you could be out there, talking with other teachers, parents, grandparents etc and actually create an environment where my mechanical, anti-human way doesn't actually take precedence to the kindness of your heart?
This is pathetic.
Yes it is. You like being the victim so much, you'd rather suffer in silence than to actually try.
It's actually policy at my institution. When students have preferred names, they are recorded. Teachers are asked to us them, and if they make the child upset by not using them repeatedly they get in trouble. If the child does not want the parents to know about their name change, they are not told. This protects trans students.
You make a lot of wrong assumptions.
Well in that case, that's the policy of your institution. You didn't mention that in the former post so excuse my reply while lacking that piece of information. (You aren't a very good teacher if you skip stuff like this in class and then expect your students to know it.)
If the teacher is obligated by the institution policy, then they should respect it obviously. It's no longer a matter of preference.
This is just obnoxious trolling at this point.
You treat employees as contractually-obligated machines. You really have a dim view of human agency.
And you have a wonderful view of what it is to be human.