Why isn't jerking off more valorized as an easy dopamine hit that's also literally good for you?
people have been demonizing it for most of the AD years i think but it's quite pleasant really. are there any proven negative effects?
people have been demonizing it for most of the AD years i think but it's quite pleasant really. are there any proven negative effects?
Religion
I'd like to go a bit deeper.
I don't think people invented socially controlling practices because they found religion, I think they found religion to frame the invention of socially controlling practices.
Masturbation is a gratifying act that relives pressure to settle into a rigid domestic arrangement that serves to make more workers and soldiers, and create dependents that need fed, and whose well-being would be threatened if a parent became defiant and provoked the ire of elites.
Masturbation is good for the individual at the expense of the nation and its rulers. So it's inevitable that priests would decry it as an affront against god, as that's historically been their purpose.
go on...
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Defeat the ruling class... jerk off
this is exactly the truth
Pretty sad when religion claims to abhor evil, happens to be the source of a lot of it. Right? I can’t name a single thing religion ever did for me other than make me miserable.
IMO, and without actual data to back it up, I reckon religion (and religious difference) is responsible for the most suffering throughout the history of humankind.
I feel like even without religion we’d find ways to make each other miserable ‘cause we’re just an awesome species like that.
Yeah, no dispute here, mate. We're pretty shocking like that. But I think religion stands out as an example of the worst, most inventive way we've come up with to subjugate and hurt people.
As a species, we've convinced ourselves that religion should be protected rather than inspected. We let lots of bad things happen in the name of religion. It's bullshit.
Amen to that!
I don't think it's the source. I think it's a tool of social control that enables the powerful to create a bare minimum willingness to be ruled. For a long time the doctrine of Christianity was the Divine Right of Kings. Now it's the Prosperity Gospel. The books did not change but the people with all the money and power ensured the church leaders who served their interest had most of the money and thus followers.
If we didn't have religion, some other social construct would arise, and I'd argue, has arisen to fulfill it's role. Modern economic theory justifies the current power order in an unfalsifiable way that reminds me of religion.
Religion could be a liberatory force in society. In fact it has been. The liberation theology movement in South America and numerous heretical movements in the late medieval period are both examples of progressive Christian social movements.
Thank you. I think anyone who spends a lot of time reading about history comes to these conclusions.
Christianity and capitalism. If it doesn't make you feel guilty the Christians don't like it and if you can provide it to yourself for free the capitalists don't like it.
You kidding? Porn is a 4 billion dollar industry.
You can jerk off without porn. Think of all the advertising and subscriptions on porn sites. Those have nothing to do with masturbation and everything to do with capitalism.
My weiner would disagree
Sorry you’re addicted to porn, G. Get help if you need it.
So, like, for the bulk of history, the people demonizing it are religious assholes.
They demonized sex out of wedlock, demonized wanking off; and any other kind of sexual release, while simultaneously deciding who you can marry (and therefore have kids with,).
It’s one of their core methods of social control, ensuring wealth is only passed on to children of wealthy and “faithful” families.
I posted a comment impulsively, then saw that you already gave the same answer better.
They also practiced polygamy, so that rich and influential men would have multiple wives and poor men would have none. Imagine the rage when you were a Shepherd tending someone else's flocks, knowing that you will never have a wife or family.
It makes sense to have occasional wars with neighboring tribes so that excess males can be removed from the system.
Masturbation is totally normal and healthy, and you're spot on that it shouldn't be demonized or shamed. In men, it might even reduce the risk of prostate cancer.
At the same time, it's important to have a balanced and psychologically flexible relationship with masturbation and sexuality. As psychologist Steven Hayes, a leading expert on psychological flexibility, explains: getting too fixated on any one activity or coping mechanism, even a healthy one, can lead to psychological inflexibility if it is used to avoid experiencing your life fully (For a thorough explanation of how this works, feel free to check out A Liberated Mind by Steven Hayes). Psychological inflexibility here means getting stuck in rigid behavior patterns to the point that it messes with living a full and meaningful life.
So while I'm totally with you that masturbation is healthy and that bullshit social taboos against it should be rejected, it's also good to be mindful about your motivation behind doing it. Are you doing it because you're escaping pain? Or are you doing it because it aligns with your values and makes your life meaningful? If you rely on masturbation too much and don't have ways of accepting your emotions and connecting with the world, it could potentially tip into unhelpful psychological rigidity and a frustrating life. The key is to be able to experience masturbation while still staying flexible enough to show up fully for the rest of your life too.
What if I'm masturbating because my body demands I masturbate when I look at porn, even though I'd rather just look at porn without masturbating?
Thanks for the response. What you're describing - feeling a bodily urge to masturbate when viewing porn, even if you'd prefer not to - is very common. We're kinda designed so that our bodies respond to sexual stimuli. Many people can relate to that internal tug-of-war between an impulse and a conflicting desire.
From a psychological flexibility perspective, the key is to approach those urges with mindful acceptance rather than struggle against them. Fighting with or trying to suppress an urge often just makes it grow stronger, like a beach ball you keep trying to push underwater - it keeps popping back up with greater force (1). Instead, psychological flexibility invites us to open up and make room for the urge, observing it with curiosity and letting it be fully present in our awareness.
This doesn't mean you have to act on the urge. In fact, by giving it space to exist without resistance, you gain the ability to unhook from it and consciously choose how to respond in line with your values (2). You might say to yourself "I'm having the thought that I need to masturbate right now" and feel the sensations of that urge in your body, while still maintaining the freedom to decide if acting on it is truly what you want.
Imagine for a moment that a dear friend or loved one came to you struggling with this same dilemma. How would you respond to them? Most likely with compassion, understanding, and encouragement to be kind to themselves as they navigate this very human challenge. We could all benefit from extending that same caring response to ourselves.
At the end of the day, you're the expert on your own life and what matters most to you. By practicing acceptance of your inner experiences, unhooking from unhelpful thoughts and urges, and clarifying what you truly value, you can develop psychological flexibility to pursue a rich and meaningful life - whatever that looks like for you. That means that there's no one "right" way to relate to masturbation and porn. The invitation is to approach it mindfully and make choices that align with the kind of person you want to be.
(1) You can check out the "rebound effect" or "ironic process theory." It's been studied extensively in the context of thought suppression. The seminal paper on the topic is Wegner, D. M., Schneider, D. J., Carter, S. R., & White, T. L. (1987). Paradoxical effects of thought suppression. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 53(1), 5–13. https://doi.org/10.1037/0022-3514.53.1.5
(2) This meta-analysis reviewed laboratory-based studies testing the components of the psychological flexibility model, and how psychological flexibility techniques increase behavioral flexibility. Levin, M. E., Hildebrandt, M. J., Lillis, J., & Hayes, S. C. (2012). The impact of treatment components suggested by the psychological flexibility model: A meta-analysis of laboratory-based component studies. Behavior Therapy, 43(4), 741-756. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.beth.2012.05.003
Thank you... most of the responses in this thread are really immature, arrogant, entitled, and pretty fucking cynical.
I work with people with severe depression and also the occasional sex/porn addict. Sexuality can lead us to some healthy lifestyles and can function as a healthy coping skill but it's also one that's easy to overdo. There are folks out there who try to treat their depression by masturbating all day long. They're desperate for any hit of pleasure, and they have quite literally milked that cow dry.
This post reminds me of the Reddit marijuana communities, that rubber-banded so far beyond reasonable moderated consumption of a helpful medicine, but refused to see how maladaptive their ritual had become. No one in this thread is questioning the original premise. "But it's so good!" That's the immature, arrogant part. And the entitled part is the attitude that any criticism of my precious coping tool is a threat to my hollow happiness, and the cynicism is that the only reason to criticize it is because of a corrupt society! Jesus fucking christ this thread broke my brain, you all broke my brain, we all suck.
I've ended up having sex with my marijuana and smoking my semen.. And I can't help but ask myself, where did it all go wrong?
Rigid behavioral patterns like having to work 40 hours a week, shop, feed yourself, clean, do laundry, go to the doctor, pay bills and so on, over and over and over again for the rest of your life?
Bro you can't just list basically every human ADL and say it's a "rigid behavior". That's basically like saying "Oh, you claim to like variety? Then how come you spend every day ALIVE?" thats idiotic, arrogant, cynical
Well excuse the fuck out of me for not having enough free time to actually enjoy my life.
you cant compartmentalize things like that. there aren't "chores" vs "fun" and everything you have to do is pain and the fun is just the chemical rushes. you gotta learn to enjoy the little things, enjoy yourself while you're doing your job or your chores, have some gratitude that you still live and breathe. you probably are gonna wanna get screened for depression
I can't pick and choose what I do or do not enjoy doing. There's nothing engaging about cleaning or doing laundry. When I first got out on my own there was at least some challenge in figuring out the most efficient way of doing things but that's all been mastered long ago. My job mostly consists of going down a list of projects and emailing people to find out why they haven't finished things that should have been done weeks ago. Then when I leave I get to sit in traffic for half an hour. Maybe stop at one of the over crowded, understaffed grocery stores to overpay for food. Get home, work out for an hour, shower, cook food, clean up, do whatever else needs doing. There's nothing to enjoy about any of that. It's all tedious as hell. I might have an hour or two after everything else is done to unwind before bed and even then I usually have too much on my mind to really get immersed in anything.
I get how you can feel like that is a fault of the world, but don't you see any agency in changing any of this? Or you just leave it at "Well I don't like it so that's that"
Of the things I listed:
Job - I'm always on the look out for better options, so far nothing has come up that pays more and I'm already not making enough to do the things I want to do.
Cleaning - Already said I have gamified it to get some enjoyment out of it in the past but I don't see any more room for improvement there.
Traffic - I can leave work early to beat rush hour sometimes but that that only helps a little.
Grocery store - I've tried going to different ones but it's more or less the same issues at all of the ones I've tried. I've figured out which days are usually less busy but it still sucks.
Working out - I vary my routines to not get too boring but it's still more or less the same stuff over and over again. It was fun when I was making gains but now my physique is where I want it to be so it's just maintenance.
Cooking- can try making new stuff but that just takes longer and comes with the risk of waste if I mess it up or don't like it. Also sharing a kitchen with housemates that tend to pack all the freezer space with garbage they buy from costco.
Free time - I guess I could stay up later but then I'll feel like shit all day the next day.
I'm open to suggestions but you're acting like I don't think about this shit constantly.
Yeah it does sound like you think about this a lot and you're really trying to make it work. I guess thinking about it isn't gonna be the solution.
It sounds like your dopamine systems are all screwed up - and make no mistake, most of ours are nowdays. When we spend our days getting flooded with quick hits of pleasure, scrolling memes here, gaming after school, masturbating whenever we want, etc., it's really hard to feel pleasure from the little things in life. But that's the point of dopamine: it's supposed to tell us when we're doing the right thing and make us feel rewarded just from having our life in order. But the pleasure of caring for your home is not going to be as intense as the rush you get from leveling up or opening loot boxes or whatever.
That's why we always see in these kinds of threads comments like "You wanna take away the ONE THING i enjoy in this miserable existence!" well shit sometimes that one thing you enjoy is making it so you can't enjoy anything else.
Then the question becomes How do I recalibrate my dopamine systems? And that's a complicated answer - if that's even the issue here! But yeah, more thinking (or words from me) probably wont do the trick.
I mean that's definitely just a checkout aisle self-help book, though. Psychology, along with nutritional science and some other softer, more survey-based fields, has been suffering a pretty massive replication crisis, where something like 50% of papers are totally incapable of being replicated, depending on the journal and subject.
So I dunno, I'd generally be pretty skeptical of anything a book like that says about how you have to live your life or what you should be doing or how you should be doing it. Even if it's something like "mindfulness", right, generally thought to be a therapeutic practice, which we're extracting from zen buddhism or whatever, just like carl jung travels around and extracts a bunch of "archetypes" from other cultures and then supposes that they're universal when really it's all just kinda some schizo bullshit canon he's coming up with on the fly.
I uhh, I don't like the scientific paint that is painted onto psychology and psychotherapy, is I guess what I'm saying. The attempt at formalization. What is just as good for one person, to be mindful, is probably something that someone else should rather not think about at all. Maybe even as a functional adaptation, a functional delusion that they can go on believing, and still end up having a fulfilling and uplifting life for everyone around them.
Hayes is not a checkout aisle self-help book lol he pioneered multiple major branches of CBT. that's like calling the Rolling Stones elevator music
I admire the skepticism but you haven't read it and clearly haven't taken time to fully understand it. he isn't making prescriptive claims. he's speaking on behavioral science. "A happens, then B tends to happen. C happens, then D tends to happen. do what you will with this info."
i understand the apprehension about psychological research but it is fundamentally a subjective science - psychology is what makes subjectivity possible, after all! and we humans clearly need treatment. if everyone listened to the ideas you planted in here, then what would we do? not try any treatments at all? not test our treatments? not seek evidence that our treatments are working and improve them? not share our findings?
the issue fundamentally is that you need to learn more about reading and interpreting scientific literature. you're presenting a pseudo-intellectual skepticism which is admittedly a healthy protective mechanism from many things online, but is not going to be a useful attitude for all kinds of growth
im sorry im being a dick but this thread has funked up my barometer for crazy and i probably misinterpreted your level of it, be well
I mean, both can be true, right. It's not uncommon for pretty popular scientists to get into kind of the grift economy after a little while. Jordan peterson has how many citations to his scientific papers or whatever? But then he still rolls around and spews a bunch of bullshit that's sort of framed under the guise of his psychological background, and you can still tell is pretty easily influenced by his jungian type bullshit. I dunno, been a while since I actually looked into him, but it shook my ability to trust psychology more as a field, after that one.
No yeah for sure I haven't read it, don't claim to have read it, I'm just extremely skeptical of that kind of book, which presents science to the public at large, because most of the experiences I've had with that sort of thing have been damaging psuedoscientific bullshit that I slowly have to talk my friends out of. Which becomes much harder when they think they know things on a topic because they've read like one book about it. I don't even try to talk them into a different stance, I just try to talk them out of the kind of, oversimplified takes which they tend to get from these types of books. Steven pinker type books, "Guns, Germs, and Steel" type books, "The Bell Curve" type books, "How to Win Friends and Influence People", "Poor Dad, Rich Dad", shit like that. Admittedly not all of those are science guys, and some of that shit's kind of old, but, you see what I'm getting at, it all blends together for the public. Pop psychology, that's probably the term for that specific type of book, and uhh, yeah, that book gave me that kind of vibe.
If I'm really being skeptical, than, not evaluating anything else, because I just got up and still haven't finished my coffee, the first study at the end of your post has two experiments. The first has a sample size of 34, the second has a sample size of 44. I dunno if I would say that you can really extrapolate anything from such an incredibly small sample size, to be honest. Especially one that's like, taken from standard college campus volunteers. I know there are lots of scientific studies that rely on sample sizes which are pretty small, and I would throw that criticism at those studies, too. Shit happens in nutrition and exercise science too, I know for sure, which is why you see shitty fad diets circulate so much. I dunno, maybe I'll read the rest of the paper, but that's just like my general, me throwing shit at psychology as a field, right? But, maybe more, like, maybe more to, I think, some sort of point, if I have it, right:
Like what do you mean by this? Because you're looking at this through "treatments", right, and I dunno if that's the correct lens with which to view most people's problems that they have in life. I mean it's not a fuckin, incredibly new take, right, but like, you have a society where you're expected to work 9-5, probably more, hours, five days a week, probably go in on a rental with your significant other, or increasingly, with your significant others, for like, 60 something years of your life? It's not a shocker when we're experiencing increasing amounts of depression at large, then, to me. That people have problems with that. I mean like, does changing society at large, qualify as a kind of patient treatment? I suppose my problem, if I'm really trying to have one, is just kind of that like, there's not really any amount of psychological help which makes it better that your fingers are getting crushed in industrial machinery. Psychological help, in that case, just looks like copium. I don't think psychology can help a lot of those problems, I think the best it can do is put a band-aid over a crippling tumor, which is nothing.
If you were to ask me what we were to do with the mentality I have, I'd probably want to incredibly balloon sample sizes and drastically increase the amount of evidence that we're collecting, compared to just like, some guy's written observations on like 50 people in some random experiment. Probably though, this is impossible, because school funding does not look to be going up anytime soon and google isn't gonna share their massive amounts of data they're collecting on people, and even if we had a glut of data to go through then we'd probably still be having to come up with and apply some sort of framework to it. At which point we just end up with a bunch of hacky bullshit, where you just take the noise and draw something in it and then say that this was somehow a natural occurrence, so you'd also need more rigorous standards for what conclusions we're actually able to draw from the noise.
Then, even if you were able to do that, you'd still have no real way of distinguishing, say, one set of noise from another set of noise, to compare the two and draw a conclusion, because we're just playing with like, one set of data, in a vacuum, compared to another set of data drawn from a vacuum, and there's too many variables which might effect one outcome compared to another. So you'd probably need to be gathering pretty rigorous data over the course of many years before you'd be able to draw a real conclusion. Even then, the data might not be good enough, I dunno if you'd have enough information.
I'd maybe lean more into neuroscience to try and cut out some of the external noise, some of the factors that might fuck your shit up, but then that's also not quite a good method because it doesn't really cut out the external noise so much as ignore it, and you can still end up finding FMRI signals in a dead fish.
So, I dunno, probably I'd just use science for maths and astronomy and physics, stuff like that, and then otherwise I'd dismiss it, in looking for philosophies and methods with which to live my life or shape my being around. Or, you know, try to take it as it comes, and not really accept claims at face value. I've tried mindfulness, and I've found it wanting, because it just caused me to dissociate whenever I encountered an outcome I didn't really like, and then instead of responding to things naturally, and flying by instinct, it causes me to kind of be like, the guy who smokes weed and then becomes hyper-aware of everything they're doing but then their actual behavior devolves into nonsense.
Then, when I got farther than that, and I started to observe that behavior in the abstract, then it just sort of struck me as like, none of this realistically gives you a particular value judgement, right. It's fine enough to just say, like, ah, well, think about it more, evaluate your life more, think about the long term consequences a little more. But, that train of thought doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to be making the correct judgements, and even over a lifetime, it might very well be that I could try everything and still come to the wrong conclusions, wrong judgements, or the right conclusions and right judgements, or whatever. I could be a hyper-conscious CEO evaluating my own life totally inaccurately and still be getting by fine and dandy, and I could be a homeless guy with accurate takes but still have a shit life. It's basically nonsense, to just be like, oh, well, think about it a little bit harder, just be a little bit more conscious, because that isn't nailed down to anything in particular.
I respect your skepticism and I can see why you would mistrust the field broadly based on those figures in it. I just don't think we need to throw out the whole field because of bad actors. Someone like Jordan Peterson is widely discredited in the field.
Treatment IS important. There are REAL problems with roots in our own psychology. It is not purely psychological, but always biopsychosocial. Disregarding the psychological is not the way to treat biopsychosocial issues. In fact, it is one of the only ones we have any real agency or control over. And the more we develop psychology, the more just our understanding becomes. Think about 50 years ago when almost everything was just called "schizophrenia" and we treated people by shocking the shit out of them. That's where we'd still be if we didn't do this kind of work.
When someone comes to me writing in pain from traumatic flashbacks, or wildly out of control of their lives due to mood swings, or losing grasp on what is real or not, or paralyzed with anxiety from the rat race you're talking about, or they just plain cannot enjoy anything anymore and want to kill themselves... it is a low priority for me to discuss systemic issues with them. We can acknowledge them as a tool for alleviating shame and guilt surrounding mental disorders, and we can brainstorm ways to work around them, but expecting a suicidal client to begin marching in the streets? That is not going to be a sustainable means of making their immediate lives better. It is often more of a distraction than anything. Systemic justice and advocacy work is the kind of thing you do for no singular client in particular, and usually done in addition to the individual work.
But mental health treatment is how we help people find peace right here and now. It is how we empower people to find agency in their own lives, and help make them strong enough people to go out and support others in the longer term. It's the people who do not treat their mental health that end up devoting themselves to bizarre causes. I mean, think about how many Q anon supporters have addictive or psychotic tendencies.
If you acknowledge that there are real mental disorders (with both internal and external etiology), and you acknowledge that treating the individual can be a positive step towards addressing systemic issues, then the question becomes what kind of treatment should we use? That's where the scientific method comes in too. Yes there will always be problems and questions, but we do what we can with what we have.
I have seen people make real progress and really turn their lives around. That includes the masturbaters too lol, who do come through from time to time. I don't care if there are swindlers out there - as long as there are real people who are really helping others. Helping people figure out what is truly important to them can help them find strength to endure the shit they cannot change. Helping people build tolerance for and even appreciation for pain can help them make decisions that give their lives greater meaning. It helps people free themselves from the grasp of addiction and start giving back to others. It helps people find reasons to live. It is doing an immediate, person-to-person good. I don't know what kind of world you dream of, but I hope it is one with room for that kind of justice.
Thank you for your thoughts on all this!
Jerking it is fine, but just like any coping mechanism, you can abuse it and get addicted to it, then it becomes a problem.
If you're doomscrolling porn, for example, then maybe it is having a negative effect on you.
Boobscrolling. Poonscrolling? Goonscrolling!
Goonscrolling is a crazy word for it, and is now what i will be using from now on lmao
Coomscrolling
Goonscrolling
Ejaculation lower the risk of prostate cancer, so masturbation should probably be medically advised to all men.
4-7 times a week is a good number according this study
Oh... there's an upper limit? Is 4 times a day not healthy then?
At least 4-7 times a week. I have not read anything about an upper limit so go for it.
Im going to live for ever!
My guess would be the benefit plateaus at that point.
There is the factor of diminishing returns.
There's an overflow and it helps others
Username checks out
Because you enjoy it. If you're fixing your issues, it must be through pain and suffering. If it doesn't involve pain and suffering, then it isn't fixing your issues. The "Protestant work ethic" doesn't come right out and say that, but it's the implication.
See also: denial of LSD and psilocybin for mental health purposes.
What if I want a hot girl to cause me pain and suffering?
Death by snu snu!
Then it's the other way around obviously for more pain and suffering.
You can get a prescription for paid sex in the Netherlands if certain conditions apply, and other EU countries are exploring the option.
I don't know how hot she'd be though.
For the seminal analysis of this topics, there's Max Weber's book “The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism”. But it is really dry reading, so I would suggest finding some YouTube essay video that summarizes it.
Seminal. Heehee
(Sing along with me)
Every sperm is sacred
Every sperm is good
Every sperm is wanted
In your neighborhood
Remind me to never walk barefoot in your neighborhood.
You shouldn't do that anyway.
If you bring a black light at night, it looks like the surface of the moon in direct sunlight
This mofo walks barefoot on the streets.
Not everyone grows up in places where that is looked down upon.
ewwwwwww tho
I don’t even walk barefoot in my house. I used to, but then I got a bunch of cats.
Outside though?! Absolutely not! I have different PANTS I wear when I go outside.
That last line made me change to Ray Parker Jr style funk.
"Bustin' makes me feel good!"
I actually asked my family doctor at one point about the health effects of masturbation. She said that as a guy, if you are not otherwise sexually active, it's good for the prostate to keep the plumbing working down there.
Puritanism bullshit.
nooo the muffins 😭😭😭
how could you encrypt them 🥲
So only I can eat them. Mwahahaha!
noooo 😭
Religion, capitalism. Powerful groups want more people to have more children.
Luckily I'm in a progressive enough country that even in school we were taught that masturbation is a thing and not necessarily bad.
As for negative effects - if you do it TOO much, particularly with a very strong grip, then don't be surprised if, when having actual intercourse, you're just not feeling much and might be unable to reach orgasm. You might even be uninterested in your partner sexually. A few days without masturbation will fix it though, doesn't seem to be permanent. Day 2 without doing it and I couldn't keep my eyes (or hands) off my wife's body.
Sex was very infrequent for me and my wife in the last few months of her pregnancy, so that's how I know. Soon as we started doing it on a somewhat regular basis again, I opted to quit jerking it because I wanted to enjoy the real thing more, even if it's not every single day. No long-term negative effects that I've noticed.
Capitalism is powered by fapping, the fuck are you talking about?
A lot of the power users in this thread have clearly never heard of "sex sells".
::: spoiler Title Also non-zero chance some of these guys might have an association with Mindgeek. Just a hunch, given how easy reddit like sites are to manipulate. :::
It's powered by there being enough of us wage slaves, which requires us to procreate, which is why red states in the US ban sex education, abortion, etc.
Of course, other capitalists have realized they can show ads on porn
Stop smoking what you're smoking.
A lot of religion has been to push a heterosexual couple together for the means of procreation. Masturbation has been seen as a way for people to lessen their urge to procreate in the appropriate canonical manner.
These days mutual masterbation is better for your relationship than having kids. It's not the kids fault, society has made having kids a nightmare.
And of course the reason it is demonized is that any powerfull organization/society needs peoples shoulder to stand on. So, the more people, the more power. And they don't really care if it was by rape due to sexual frustration, they just need more people to take advantage of.
Because easy dopamine hits are also easy to gain unhealthy addictions to. Because it's literally right there, easily accessible, at all times.
Couple this with how incredibly unhealthy the social relationships portrayed in most pornography are, and you're gearing up for a lot of young men addicted to wanking and having unrealistic expectations of sex. The porn young women read isn't necessarily much better, in the regard of healthy social sexual relationships.
Now, I'm not one of those weird "you shouldn't jerk it at all" folks because that's just extremism in the other direction.
Temperance and moderation are key in all things.
Porn “addiction” is a misnomer because it doesn’t have much in common with drug addiction, gambling addiction, etc. Porn “addicts”, when you show them images of porn, do not have brain responses like those of addicts who are shown images of whatever they’re addicted to.
But what is a great predictor for whether or not someone will self report being a porn addict is shame. Gay men in particular are significantly more likely than straight men in general to say they’re addicted to porn. So are straight men with a heavily religious background.
Which isn’t to say that people who report porn addictions aren’t really suffering, it’s just not the same as an actual addiction and is instead the result of living in a culture telling you that your normal sexual desires are wrong.
I actually agree. What's addicting is the hit of dopamine from sexual release, not the porn itself. I see porn as more like how people who quit smoking often still find something to fiddle with in their hands and mouth. Biting on pencils, straws, etc. because part of their ritual of using the substance involved taking out a cigarette and putting it up to their mouth. The act of viewing porn itself isn't the addiction, but it's associated with it.
Like I said, moderation is key, because there's a wide difference between masturbating a healthy amount and filling various cumjugs with figurines in them. Like if you can go out and live a normal life after jerking it, awesome, fuck yeah, that's great. If you can't make it through a workday without going to the bathroom to crank it, maybe you've got a fucking problem. I shouldn't have to deal with some fucking weirdo breathing heavily and shaking the whole stall next to me in the bathroom because they can't wait until they get home.
The porn is rather a social knock-on effect because people often seek out porn to make the pathway to dopamine release easier. The seeking of the orgasm has almost nothing to do with the societal implications of porn and its impact on relationships. However, the social impact is that people begin to associate unhealthy aspects of porn with a sex life and achieving orgasm in a sex life.
There are unfortunately deep layers of exploitation, unhealthy power dynamics, and control in porn that can be healthy between consenting adults who have achieved trust but some people really start digesting this porn before they're mature enough to know how to healthily navigate those issues (especially in a society that sure as fuck isn't teaching them, because of the aforementioned religious demonization of sex). This leads to further unhealthy experiences with sex, and I don't think the gay (and LGBTQ+ community as a whole for that matter) community is free from that exploitation or people being exposed to it before they've had to education to navigate it healthily either. In fact, as a minority group, I would rather think they're more likely to be exploited by the same people who hate their very existence... which further ingrains and exacerbates the very problems I'm speaking to, because the exploitation aspect of pornography is normalized. The areas that consume the most LGBT themed porn tend to be the most religiously restricted, and their viewpoint of that porn is almost 100% exploitative. To me it's a hard sell that that's not somehow a net negative for the LGBT community and that they're mostly being exploited in pornograhy and in sex work by the very people who want to demonize their very existence.
The feeling of chasing that high, which scientists can show physical evidence of through brain imaging, isn’t present in people who self report porn addiction. What they’re calling addiction is frequently just enjoying masturbation, which they feel shame about, and that any amount is too much. If what people are self reporting as porn addiction neurologically doesn’t behave as an addiction, then therapies for addiction are not going to be evidence based treatments.
The people you’re talking about with cum jars often don’t even see their behavior as a problem, much less labeling themselves addicts. The overlap of the circles of people who masturbate in public and those that call themselves porn addicts is near zero. Calling all of that porn addiction is basically lumping all problematic sexual behavior together with people who think they’re part of that group because they look at porn and masturbate.
The professionals that treat porn addiction are also for the most part members of religious organizations that promote religious based solutions, which also doesn’t really offer much evidence against the idea that porn “addiction” is religious based shame.
The porn industry itself being exploitative of the workers is a completely different conversation than someone being “addicted” to porn.
I get that anyone who says they have a porn addiction isn’t having a good time. But we can’t ignore that there is a huge industry of religious quackery that is more than happy to take your money and tell you that you’re oh so sick, just as your shame and guilt tell you.
I want you to go back and re-read both of my posts and tell me where I said the words "porn addiction" or alluded to porn being the addiction. I'm trying to work with you here buddy, but you've decided that I'm saying something I haven't said, after I took the time to clearly explain as much.
I literally am not talking about porn addiction nor have I used the words porn addiction, so can you take your crusade elsewhere, please and thank you.
Literally what I am talking about and why I didn't use the term porn addiction.
I’m sorry, I guess I don’t understand why you’re talking about addictions and how that relates to dopamine in your first comment if you’re not talking about porn addiction. I’m not using quotes around porn addiction to directly quote you, I’m using them because I don’t believe porn addiction is a real thing.
Dude, we're literally talking about how orgasms release dopamine. What the fuck are you smoking? I'm literally talking about the orgasm itself!
Fucking reading comprehension is dead.
If your problem is specifically me using the word porn when you’re talking about masturbation more generally, with or without porn, does it help to add the context that “porn addiction” is used interchangeably by these groups with “masturbation addiction”? I’m not really sure where this is breaking down.
Phrases like "couple this with" from this sentence from my first comment are how I'm breaking it down. The meaning of this is "in addition to" not "these are equals." I'm sorry you've not managed to read the context words I added specifically for this purpose.
From my second comment:
Because it's true that people use shortcuts to cumming, like porn.
I reiterate, reading comprehension is dead.
Dude, I’ve tried engaging with you politely on this and elaborating on each thing I was saying. If you’re married to the idea of masturbation addiction being real despite the scientific evidence for it being incredibly weak and the “treatment” being bankrolled by religious groups, knock yourself out.
Ima be real with you.
Arguing all masturbation is inherently good isn't any better or morally superior than arguing all masturbation is inherently bad. Extremism is extremism and literally all I was talking about was moderation. If you can't handle someone arguing moderation, it sounds like maybe you really do have a problem.
Lmao, I’m at a stage of my life and on the types of medications that would make wanting to masturbate a lot a welcome change.
Masturbation (in private obviously) is a neutral act. Anyone trying to characterize it as inherently good or bad is suspect. Anyone trying to sell you a cure for something mainstream society tells you is shameful, doubly so.
What it seems you're describing is how nymphomania manifests in people without a partner. Nymphomania and porn addiction are two different things. Likewise I don't think nymphomania necessarily has the same underlying causes as say a drug addiction, it might be something like a hormonal issue. Hard to know without doing more research.
I, we all rather, are "addicted" to air, water, food, shelter, safety, rest, etc. - which as you say isn't the same as a true "addiction" at all. Wanting things that produce a healthy life is not a bad thing, and in fact quite the opposite. To the extent that religion or culture or whatever encourages the opposite (rather than e.g. moderation and consideration, like mindfulness), it is wrong and bad. Even for someone who believes in a God who is good, those false beliefs need to be cast aside, bc they hinder us from living well. I wish I had discovered this earlier in life.:-D
I don't really get this honestly. When people watch The Flash, they know that it's unrealistic for someone to move at that speed. When people read sci-fi, they know it's unrealistic to expect every problem to be solved by science in their lifetime. When people watch the show Superstore, they don't expect it to actually be a realistic representation on how a big box store runs. So I don't see why porn would be any different. They're all acting.
Probably to sell more Corn Flakes.
To be fair, they really taste better with milk.
You realize things aren't viewed the same all over the world right? Here in Sweden it's nothing bad or wrong, we generally have good sex education and parents that are fine with it as long as we keep it private and clean. And as adults it's completely normal, not that uncommon to talk about either. There was a monthly magazine for teens when I grew up that talked a lot about sex, sexual identity and stuff like that and the readers could send it questions to get answered by professionals or other readers. Very open and helped so many with things they didn't dare ask parents or others about and it was always a better source than the Internet when that came around. Pretty sure it's still a thing too.
So it's just seen as a thing everyone does and enjoys.
There should be rules about having jerk off rooms at work. Its a human right like praying rooms!
Edit: /s
called a toilet
You pray while shitting?
shitting is the prayer!
Erm... Well, I consider myself to be tolerant of other people's practices, so you do you.
I think neither should exist.
Sorry - this was a joke
My bad!
because suffering is fetishized
Religion that's why. They have to control you.
Tbh, I've tried it. It was pleasant.
We should create a community about that, so we can tell the world how great it was.
I personally just did it it and it was great guys, hope you like hearing about it
I did it twice today. The second time wasn't as epic, but damn was the one this morning great.
I imagine it's similar to marihuana.
If people find out there's an easy, relaxed life, they don't work so hard, hurting corporate profits.
I think the simpler answer is, you are so right, it barely has to be valorized. It sells itself.
I think the long answer is that porn addiction is a real thing that can affect people. Also lots of people in charge of things like sex education have historically been prudes who see masturbation as some sort of gateway to promiscuity.
Orgasms are normal, healthy and necessary.
Porn addition is a myth. Stop perpetuating it.
I mean addiction colloquially. The existence and over use of porn does cause some people and their relationship some level of affects. I don't think we can just hand wave it all away.
Research seems to suggest otherwise: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/201808/science-stopped-believing-in-porn-addiction-you-should-too
You are preaching to the choir here. Yes I can believe porn addiction only exists in the kinds of the those in the religious community. I'm still trying to provide a larger picture to answer the question of why the government doesn't tell you to masturbate every day.
Porn, for some people in contexts, has had drawbacks. Those people, in some contexts, have curtailed the valorization of porn writ large. Maybe this campaign has biased me to a degree as well.
I have never been to a Sex Addicts Anonymous meeting but I'm not about to write the whole idea off entirely.
Yes, yes, no.
While orgasms are normal and can potentially have some physical and mental benefits, there is no physical or mental necessity to have them (plenty of asexual and otherwise celibate people of all different kinds out there to prove it).
I don't agree, in the experience of my friend circle, if you don't release for a while:
this is not a problem which normal people face. if you are constantly thinking about sex, you may have an addiction or an otherwise unhealthy relationship with sex
Hey don't shame ppl for normal variance in sex drive. Being horny is not a disease
People also demonize sodomy, but it's been proven that semen in your colon can help fight depression.
Practice safe sex, kids.
Is that causation or correlation?
Not sure... 🤔
I just remember reading an article about it years ago and even then I was like "Is it the semen, or just the fact they had sex?" lol
Because they are fools, brother. They fear what we could become if we were free to train out techniques to their maximum without societal judgment
Same reason we practice forced male genital mutilation in the United States, religion (abrahamic) says pleasure is bad.
Religion is mostly to blame, but I think some of those religious teachings have been integrated into institutions and secular society as well. Notions that self gratification is a treat and not a need, the perception of masturbation that it's some teenage boy temporary phase and not for women or older married men. The idea that it can't be a social activity at all, even though it's free and safer than drugs.
You can die of a heart attack if you overdo it.
You can die of cirrhosis from drinking too much for too long, but it's still culturally held as a stress reliever. You can die from diabetes if you eat too much sugar for too long, but it's still sold to children as edible happiness. Hell, you can die slowly and painfully from taking too much Tylenol, but it's still the world's most popular painkiller by far.
Too much of anything kills eventually. That doesn't bare any significance to whether or not it's good for stress in some amount.
Well, I'd say knowing this can add some stress to it, so it does have some significance in a tiny amount.
Touché
I feel like my dick would fall off first
You can die by drinking too much water, should I stop drinking water?
Only if you're drinking too much.
Also heart attack by pooping. I'll keep masturbating and pooping, tyvm.
Try them at the same time for a combo kill!
Whoa you big leaguer you. Eviscerated.
Couldn't think of a better way to go
Often times it's about control over people. Whether it's religion or capatilism sense it's something you can do yourself for free that gives you pleasure. Capatilism can't force you to pay for enjoying yourself and religion doesn't want you to do things that they don't control
For fuck sakes. Not everything has to do with capitalism. Puritanical belief exists long before capitalism, communism or whatever economic system you want to paint as the boogyman. And it will exist long after.
Yeah I don't think there it some capitalist conspiracy trying to stop people from masturbating. Kellogg is long dead
Easy dopamine isn't a good thing. Dopamine is finite but renewable, so if you run through all your dopamine on easy hits your going to end up having motivational issues.
And if your constantly chasing short term Dopamine hits your brain is going to adjust to seek behavours that give instant gratification over somthing that's just as rewarding, more productive for your personal or professional life, but takes longer to get that dopamine.
By all means deal with your libido in anyway that doesn't hurt the people around you, but maybe retiring the wankers cramp for a bit might do you good once in a while.
That sounds very scientific, do you have some sources like peer reviewed and reproducable studies from credible universities?
I was going mostly off how I've delt with addictive behavours in my life and how casualised therapists like Healthy Gamer explain how dopamine works.
It's also worth noting that this user also posted about lacking motivation to even play video games at this point, which if they're using masterbation as an easy dopamine crutch it could explain where there motivation to do anything else is going.
But yeah, I didn't prepare academic level citations for my lemmy post I made during a lull at work.
The most relevant to this discussion would be around "porn-induced erectile dysfunction". If you Google that phrase, you will find lots of studies and results.
So you're making shit up, gotcha
EDIT : "Google it lol" isn't a citation. It's right up there with "it came to me in a dream"
That's an entirely different problem to the issues with dopamine the other guy is talking about.
While I agree that it's not exactly the same, there is a lot of overlap. It's also more complicated than the OP presented.
Since everyone here is refusing to do even a basic search, here is one on the first page of Google results.
The word dopamine appears 54 times in this article, and overall seems to agree with the OP.
Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5039517/
This is simply wrong. Laughably wrong.
It's more valorized than you think. There are places on the internet that are very social and masturbatory. Check out bateworld. If you're single and are a male looking for a male, be prepared to be disappointed chatting with hetero males that are married that get off on jerking off with other men behind their wives' backs. That's pretty much a major sector of the population on bateworld. I'm kinda gay, but I surmise that the hetero world and marriage makes the sex for the hetero males kind of boring. I can't say why, I'm trying to figure it out. A survey, if you will. Basically, I predict that the end result to my survey will be: men really like their dicks because major dopamine. Men get bored with their wives because whatever reasons I don't know about. Men like their own dicks and somehow society has taught them to like their dicks so much, to the point that they often send dick pics via SMS or Whatsapp. So then they start liking other dicks? Explain to me, the gay man, why hetero men enjoy seeing x-rated pornography where the dick is larger than the hole that it is penetrating. Is it connected to the dopamine? Anyway, bateworld seems to prove that men migrate towards jerking off as a dopamine hit and men in particular are very interested in socializing with other men in need of the dopamine hit, all the while getting off on the taboo against masturbation. Me, being kinda old, I remember the good old days when you went out drinking with high hopes of having your penis touched by another person, if only briefly. 2024 is a new world, in which men are seriously confused about dicks and dopamine.
I think this is a case of "The internet can take the niche 120 people out of the 8 billion on Earth and make them seem like they're normal and everyone is like them". Loud voice, itty bitty percentage of the population. If you go to "car-fuckers.com" you'll leave thinking 4 out of 10 men have sex with their car and that's why shows like Top Gear/Grand Tour are popular lol
Thank goodness.
Some people are bi+ and just aren't out yet or don't even know exactly what they are. And that's fine. I also believe it's probably a pretty small percentage of the population. Fwiw, you can be in a differing sex relationship and still be somewhat curious about the other side of the coin. I think the worst thing people can do is be ashamed of it, then hide it at all costs where it manifests as this sort of website. Instead of having conversations among friends and spouses and more healthy methods of exploring one's sexuality, such as going to pride events and making diverse, enriching friendships.
some people aren't, and they like the taboo feel. really, don't try to educate me. I know all about it. Try, instead, to be less blah. We're not talking about "some people" we're talking about men who are really into their penises. Your public service announcement, while making me yawn, also makes me think that you're really not paying attention to what I'm talking about at all! These people I'm talking about are not gay, or questioning, or curious, or obsessed over their sexual orientations. They're heterosexual. Heterosexual men enjoy their own penises. Your "intervention" is kind of stupid and uncalled for here. I'll gladly talk to you about gay rights or whatever, but this is not the place. Biologically, I'm explaining, being a man and having a penis, you basically have an easy target to get some dopamine. We are formed this way. More women might like to chime in on this conversation. Are they getting easy dopamine hits off their clits? Were they raised to do this by their parents? No. Women are still subjected to shaming for sexual pleasure. Men, on the other hand, are encouraged to be aware of their pleasure organs. I really wish I could delete your bullshit comment. It has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
This is the most obvious "blackmailing bi-curious men" scheme I've ever read. Just say it Omeggle with consenting adults.