Someone clearly doesn't understand how much it used to cost to travel by plane 50 years ago.
Also this image is bullshit
Tray tables are about half that size now.
Not on longer flights. It doesn't benefit airlines much to make smaller tray tables
Save on weight means save on gas. Multiply that by thousands of flights and it adds up. United printed their in flight magazines on lighter paper and saved hundreds of thousands of dollars, just by using thinner paper.
They only eliminated 5kg per 737, but that added up to $290k savings.
If anything I think it’d be even more effective on longer flights as those jets spend more time in cruise vs short haul airliners.
By using lighter paper to print their in-flight magazine, Hemisphere, United Airlines saves up to 170,000 gallons of fuel, which cuts about $290,000 in annual fuel costs.
One magazine is now one 29 g lighter and weights 195 g which will make a usual 737 plane that carries 179 passengers 5 kg lighter on average.
Good example, aviation is probably the most penny-fucking business in the planet, it’s a life and death fight between the companies, trying to keep costs low.
United makes 50B in revenue a year. I'm guessing that stunt gave them more value in marketing than actual savings.
You clearly do not understand basic math nor how rampant greed in capitalism works. Sad.
If it saves them money, they WILL do it. (or even appears to save money)
Or do you think Scrooge types aren't literally known for penny-pinching when they're already rich and wouldn't even notice the pennies going missing?
It's a good pr thing, but they probably saved more money by using lower quality paper than the saved fuel.
I suppose I don't take many long flights and I don't recall how much space I had on the last long flight I had.
Typically on my domestic flights I have a tray table that won't fit my switch if I want to stand it up.
For the OP of this meme, you know you can still pay for food services on flights today, right?
Ehh…
The bottom line
Proportionally (inflation considered), flights are much cheaper now than they were 50 years ago. Consequently, flying is a more accessible mode of transport for many and has resulted in the soaring popularity of air travel, which began after deregulation. However, despite the cost drop, the base cost of flying has increased as airlines operate small profit margins and seek to remain competitive.
Yeah but it sucks.
If you want you can go first class you know. It's more or less as much as it was in the 50s and you get possibly even more luxury. Just be ready to pay 5k instead of a hundred bucks
It was like 135 bucks for the cheapest unrestricted ticket in the usa in 1975, which comes out to around 814 bucks today. Where as I can buy a round-trip ticket right now for 220, which is the equivalent of 38 bucks in 1975.
And to really put that into perspective, an average house in 1975 cost 39k, and if you take out a 20-year lone with 9% interest, you are looking at 193 bucks per month for your rent. So a single plane ticket in 1975 was 69% of the average monthly rent for a house.
Idk why I did all this, but my adhd told me I had to.
It's a shit post
Life’s been tough since Biden dropped out, hey?
But back then the price was regulated so they had to compete on service.
That might have been more that 50 years now.
Would probably be better if it still was. Less people would fly.
Not everyone's situtation is yours. There are millions of people living continents away from their family to earn money to support them.
Airliner ticket prices used to be regulated. So when all airlines had to charge the same price, they had to find other ways to be competitive in order to bring in customers. Deregulation in the 70s brought ticket costs down but that means ticket cost is now the primary point of competition between airlines and amenities now come at a steep premium.
Yep, you can have it one way or the other...cheap flights or super luxury and only the rich can fly. Planes are not cheap to operate and fuel isn't free.
And CEO bonuses and shareholder dividends must always be high-flying.
But even with that margins are tight, so 99.5% of why your flight is expensive is that planes are not cheap to operate and fuel isn't free. But we can pretend it's all the other thing to maintain slave morality.
Also when was the last time an airline stock paid a dividend? I'm sure one of them pays dividends but most pay dividends never.
Also when was the last time an airline stock paid a dividend?
So tight! Can barely afford to keep the plane in the air what with all the stock buybacks.
Lately most airlines are making insane profits from their banking-skymiles partnership deals and less from actual ticket-holders
Frankly for short haul flights it makes sense. Would it be worth paying double or triple for a three hour flight just to get a full meal? Anyone who truly wants a taste of old time flying can get that with a first class ticket, both in terms of cost and quality.
But on the plus side normal people can use air travel now.
I'm not so sure that is a positive. Airplanes are huge emission drivers and our dependence on the convenience of air travel has caused us to cease investment and innovation in other more efficient and environmentally friendly methods of travel.
No doubt there'd be a lot more support for high speed rails if airplanes weren't as accessible. IMO airplanes should only really be used for intercontinental travel.
When you factor in the number of people the airplane carries, they are about 3 times more efficient than a car with one person in it.
Note they mentioned rail as the desired alternative, rather than cars.
Just saying, compared to driving, airplanes are usually better. Also trains in the US suck. Much slower, and almost comparable in price to air travel.
Also trains in the US suck. Much slower, and almost comparable in price to air travel.
It doesn't have to be that way, many other countries have solved those issues. But because we've leaned so heavily on air travel to get us to places only a few hours away by land there hasn't been any incentive to innovate or invest in other forms of long-distance mass transit.
Seeing as I can see my family and not be homeless, I consider it a positive.
Are you saying a high speed train to your destination wouldn't also solve that problem? It would likely end up being cheaper to travel via rail considering the lower costs of maintenance and fuel, meaning further accessibility than we have today with our dependence on air travel.
Yes I am, as most trains don't cross oceans.
That's fair, and please note that I mentioned air travel has its place in intercontinental travel in my previous comment. The whole point I'm trying to make is that domestic flights between areas that could support high speed land travel infrastructure are wasteful.
Even within continents, high speed rail is expensive, many cities and towns aren't large enough or near large enough cities to make it practical. This would mean distant connections on slow trains and very long journeys.
I think you run into the same problem with airports though. Regional airports in smaller cities are often prohibitively expensive to fly in and out of. When I fly home, I fly to the nearest major metropolitan area and then drive two and a half hours to my destination rather than pay hundreds more to fly to my hometown's regional airport. That doesn't sound much different from the problem you're describing with a high speed rail network.
The cost of high speed rail travel will come down with increased utilization since the scale of cost for adding extra seats is a lot flatter than it is for air travel. Travel times by land are always going to be longer than by air but there's plenty of room to optimize the systems we currently have.
Beyond that, convenience and sustainability are diametrically opposed and if we want to continue to live in symbiosis with our environment then we're going to have to make some sacrifices to the convenience we now take for granted and that is directly harming our environment.
This is the sort of weird back in the day post that doesn't make sense. Boomers not understanding house prices and minimum wage, that is true.
This plane ticket stuff is wrong. For about the same cost as a ticket back in the day you get way more. In 1955, a one way transatlantic flight was roughly £5k. That's $6.3k freedom dollars, one way. You can today buy a ticket on that type of route for half that price that includes a lie flat bed, amenities and pyjamas, 2 hot meals, unlimited snacks, unlimited drinks, lounge access on departure and arrival, priority check-in, boarding an ungodly amount of luggage, etc. And in the lounges you get free food cooked to order, free unlimited drinks, free second tier food like buffets, etc.
If you want to spend the equivalent money or a bit more, you could fly even better. You can have a private chef onboard making a meal for you anytime you want. You can take a shower in the sky. You can have a literal bedroom and attached private living room in a mini suite just for you. And that's flying commercial.
The other side of it is that now people can also buy a ticket for $25. Which would be completely unfathomable back when civil rights weren't a thing.
In 1955, a one way transatlantic flight was roughly £5k.
Is this already inflation adjusted or was it 5k 1955-pounds, because that would make the difference way more extreme
I adjusted it for inflation already.
Okay thanks!
Came here to write something like that. 💯
that includes a lie flat bed
That entirely depends on how tall you are. Walking through those seats on my way to have my knees crammed into the seat in front of me in coach I realized that even in first class I'm too big for an airplane.
Maybe there's a market for a big & tall airline.
The old ones have seats with about 72in of lie flatness which is 6ft. But unless you sleep like a Victorian ghost, most people bend their knees or legs somehow. My friend that is 6ft4in has no issues and he's tall and wide.
Most of the new ones are 76in to 82in. 6ft 10in is pretty generous. And if you need longer, there are first class seats which are full beds and you'd have no issue.
I fly in a pod every few weeks for 12hr+ flights and it's very comfortable. I am hoping blimp travel makes a come back as I'd love to take the scenic way back with a full suite one day.
I've got a california king bed and frequently wake up with my feet dangling over one end and my arms over the other. I really, really doubt I'd fit on an 82 inch bed that has no space around it. And that doesn't get into the constant light and noise and people on a plane which make it even harder for me to sleep, even if I could get comfortable.
Though many people have made it clear to me that airplanes are not supposed to be comfortable or nice, just something to endure to get to where you're going.
Cheaper innit.
Succinct
The people in the top picture still fly like that.
The people in the bottom picture couldn't afford to fly at all in the past.
We are too reliant on air travel as it is. With the advent of the internet we should reduce air travel down to permitted leisure/visiting family and migration. Businesses should be able to video confernce most transactions. The situations where you absolutely need on site representation can be reduced drastically.
That is, if you took climate change seriously.
HA. So look, I do agree. Problem is businesses don't care, even if we do. If you figure out a way to stop management across way too many professions from holding hour long meetings to talk about some data point that has so significance to what is actually happening, and those "leaders" who call meetings early to get the team together, when the whole damn thing could be in an email...yeah man, when you solve that, I'll work with you to solve the rest.
Ok, but like I'm not going to solve it. It's not also going to be solved today. I'm just saying you want to gripe about your shitty airplane experience like we need to make it a luxury resort when really we need to stop pumping carbon into the atmosphere.
Businesses should be able to video confernce most transactions.
Almost everyone who travels a lot for work wants this too.
Rowboats my friend. Rowboats.
Plus, high-speed rail is better for the environment.
Not having to do unnecessary travel at all beats every transportation mode…
Yes, and necessary travel doesn't need to be via car or plane.
So I remember taking a flight 10 years ago and they gave us pretzel pieces from snyders. I thought, great, we don't even get whole pretzels...
Next flight, they give us generic "trail mix" in clear bags. The kind the old folks down the street would give out at Halloween because it was "healthy." but that contained approximately 2 pretzels the size of quarters, 3 peanuts, 3 generic m&ms, and 2 raisins...
It gave me the impression that airlines are like schools, where the flight staff are the ones bringing in the snacks because the airline is too cheap to supply them.
My teacher friends live in big houses and travel all over the world but you know whatever. I don't.
Liar.
My grandparents were both teachers and are rich. Granted one was a professor, but the other a public school teacher.
In any case, anecdotes do not and cannot disprove the actual statistics.
Also, if you live in a country that actually respects intelligence, I'd HOPE your teachers are actually paid well. Sadly, the US despises intelligence right now...
In dying rural areas in the US teachers are generally some of the best paid. Its mostly in cities where their pay lags. But no, they live in the US in LA(CA, not the state). Also, FYI just because I live in one country doesn't mean its the same my grandparents live in.
Ahh yes, California, a state that pays more, AND in LA, where wages are WAY higher because cost of living is way higher...
Thank you for describing why your anecdote is an outlier and DEFINITELY doesn't prove any norm.
Thank you for describing why your anecdote is an outlier and DEFINITELY doesn’t prove any norm.
Where did I say it was the norm??? You called someone a liar for giving an anecdote. Outliers do happen...
They're a liar for attempting to use an anecdote to disprove a trend. That's basic, basic manipulation tactics. Manipulation is wrong, misleading, and arguably lying when misusing data.
They never said anything about a trend. They said not all teachers are poor. That doesn't mean they were disagreeing that teachers tend to be underpaid.
You had more legroom and the TSA didn't exist, but everything else was way worse.
Yah, but you could smoke.
Yuck. That's a con.
I swear, nobody on Lemmy gets sarcasm without being slapped in the face with it.
Everyone on lemmy is autistic.
Or grew up around conservatives and heard that shit being said unironically.
I still hear people fondly reminisce about leaded gas. If you think I'm missing a joke, no. They will drive to airports to buy the leaded gas they sell there.
And here I thought the lightbulb shit was stupid.
Seriously tho, like reddit was autistic enough but now you gotta be even more niche enough to know about smaller better reddit.
I blame it on the fact that autists will literally rip something apart if its making a weird noise. So a lot left reddit for being broken. Source I am autistic.
Let's maybe not use "autism" so derogatorily?
Autism is better than every ism.
Every organism?
Well if there wasn't an organism, there would be no autism. Now the rant: I still don't get why people bully us, while their image of autism is heavily influenced by stereotypes and old research.
Eh, if you're looking for the cheapest ticket available you can't really expect luxury. Airlines are competing with prices, so all luxury goes off the window like a passenger on a Boeing flight
Cuz first class used to be the only class.
Because our children’s children will still be paying the tab for that unsustainable opulence. Fuck they’ll be paying the bill for recreational air travel with only pretzels.
Stupid. The cost for flights then was more like beyond first class prices now.
Stupid. The cost for flights then was more like beyond first class prices now.
And a lot more smoky.
This reminded me of that one flight as a kid, when I was seated in a row with two smokers. I literally couldn’t breathe. I’m happy that my kids don’t have to experience shit like this.
Don't like the smoke? Then sit on the other side of the aisle in the non-smoking section.
The amount of people who think flying is a normal thing. One percent of the worlds population produce 50% of aviation emissions. And most off the worlds population never fly in their life.
When the corpo wars start I'm just going to shoot them out of the sky
Because you always buy the cheaper seats. It's not your fault, I do the same. Flying was literally for the wealthiest of people at that point in history, it was literally a luxury to fly instead of taking a train, bus, or a boat.
Indeed, I do prefer a can of cola, some pretzels and five crisp hundred dollar notes.
That tray table is WAYYYYY too big and luxurious - they have shrunk legroom so dramatically now that you get a little sliver about the width of your shoe.
That cup is about double the size they give now.
You didn't get to pick those pretzels, there was just the single "choice" now.
Also, you didn't get to pick that seat and you had to have last minute anxiety that you wouldn't even be assigned a seat by the gate agent at the airport (after already taking time off from work to travel and committing $100+ for uber or airport parking)
You also paid at least an extra $100 to have a carryon bag (more depending on your route) and even more for a checked bag.
your seatback no longer has a screen in it. You have to submit to letting airline gorge on your personal data by granting permissions to run entertainment from your own phone and drain your battery.
Also, though they removed screen and expect you to use your own device, no viable phone holder provided to put your phone in a proper viewing position, so you'll crane and hurt your neck throughout flight.
Also, your base airline ticket is now more expensive than in the past baggie all these upcharges and compromises.
shitty rental car at your destination now costs $100/day and parking at your hotel is not free, and is in fact $30-$50 additional per night.
And your garbage hotel room costs 3X what it should.
Even spirit airlines allows you to pick your seat provided you book in advance
It doesn't though with the basic fares now. Boarding pass has "see gate agent" printed where a seat assignment would be. And no guarantee of a couple/family being seated together.
Also always rumors of airlines testing stacked or standing seats to cram even more people in each plane.
Oh yeah, they may have charged like $10 for me to pick my seat, but that seemed worth it for a guaranteed window seat
Depends on the market probably, but a lot of spots it's like $50-$100 extra, each way, to upgrade to the seat level that let's you choose a seat. Frontier and spirit used to be the joke, but most of them are doing it now. Cliche joke used to be that they'd charge you each time you used the bathroom (maybe they actually happened in Europe, Ryanair?) But like too many things, we're close to living the onion.
Allegiant and Frontier don't, unless you want to pay extra to pick your seat. Some will cost more than others.
You COULD be paying for first class seats and getting that kind of treatment, but you're flying Economy, aren't you.
You guys get snacks?
With Ryanair I’m thankful that they have to offer a seat.
There's no snacks. Maybe a mini bag of pretzels if the flight is over 5 hrs long.
Y'all know you're allowed to bring your own food right?
Not drinks though. Man, that time our whole family of five got detained for an hour and given the bomb sniffing treatment because my wife brought a tube of baby butt cream that was a 1/4 ounce too big
But I want to pay 3,50€ for a bottle of water and 10€ for horse meat lasagna
With Ryanair you have to pay extra for the air stewardess not to spit on your face or insult you on the way in.
(I might be exaggerating)
(But not by much)
That’s the only service I would happily pay extra for but they do it for free
Look at Mr. Moneybags over here, getting a drink that's not water.
people would rather be assfucked by a super sonic wheel than be fingered by the TSA
Please just let me recline a bit more.
Meanwhile, me aboard a train: "Oh you can get whole massive meals on restaurant cars these days? No thank you, I'll get a coffee and one of those overpriced naff sandwiches." (Well, the Finnish train sandwiches are pretty good, but they are hella overpriced. Like 7€. WTF.)
7 Euros = 7.55 USD
That is a pretty normal price for a sandwich in the USA. I wish I considered that overpriced. 5 or more years ago I probably would have said that was overpriced.
they're overpriced in the sense that a sandwich does not in any universe cost that much to actually produce, not in the sense that they charge more than other people do for sandwiches.
7 euros isn't too much more than what a sandwich can tend to cost at Pressbyrån in sweden, which is infamous for charging out the ass for everything just because they can. A normal grocery store that carries some premade sandwiches might charge more like 5 euro for them.
Because what are you gonna do? Take a boat to cross the Atlantic? Like you're some puritan running from Anglicanism?
Like you're some Greta Thumberg trying to make a valid point.
Ship travel in the age of sail was more accommodating. At least you can walk around and shit.
It takes so much longer though. I don't think I'd prefer the travel time of a ship over the sea over the temporary discomfort of a flight.
i mean we can make pretty fast boats at this point, and sleeper trains are plenty popular.
I think a 3-day transatlantic cruise from Calais to NYC would attract quite a lot of people, it wouldn't be the main way to go from europe to america but for anyone on a leisure trip, why not? Or if you're moving between the continents, that's a pretty stellar way to mark the change in your life.
Only up on the poop deck though.
Because Americans have no class consciousness
My father's generation thought planes would just get faster and faster and by now we'd be able to fly from NYC to Tokyo in 40 minutes
Concorde wasn't far off that sort of speed. But it was too expensive. Such speeds will probably return in some form one day.
Concorde wasn’t far off that sort of speed. . .
The concorde took 180 minutes (3 hours) to travel from New York to London (3,000 nautical miles).
Ignoring range limits, a trip from New York to Tokyo (5,861 nautical miles) at that speed would take 351 minutes (5.8 hours).
Sadly, missile technology usurped bombers, so there was no reason for the government to pay for the development of large, ultra-fast aircraft after the early 70s
Just put seats on the missile then? I don't know I'm not an engineer
Elon already thought of that
And the “free” pretzels are also sponsored with an ad on the packaging.
capitalism. next question?
actually, don't bother! just assume the answer to why things suck is always capitalism unless you find hard evidence to the contrary.
Planes are three times faster, five times longer range and 95% cheaper per mile, in real terms, than those early days.
The consumer was given the choice and they chose this. Honestly, air travel is great.
Yes, capitalism sucks. I hate being nickle and dimed for hand luggage, lottery tickets, snacks, hidden booking fees and all that shit. Some gentle regulations would be really nice, just to curb the excess.
saying consumers were given a choice is a bit generous.
also standing planes incoming.
They were and still are given a choice. I can fly from London to New York on British Airways first class or Easyjet. Consumers consistently choose the cheapest headline price.
You can also buy a Ferrari over a Honda, doesn’t mean everyone can afford it making it not a choice at all.
Virtually no one could afford air travel prior to the 1960s, that's a very large part of my point. It got affordable in the 70s and very affordable in the 80s.
In the UK, at some point during the 80s, it became normal for almost every single working family to get on a plane and go somewhere sunny once a year for two weeks. Every year. Minimum.
Ok, fair point. Just came off a little weird to me.
Sorry, I know I'm not always the clearest. :)
Happens to me too! Sometimes it’s hard to put thoughts to words and shit
Look, I'm basically a communist most of the time, but I don't think this is a good take. I'll admit I don't actually know the numbers but I know air travel is expensive and not great for the planet.
It could be better, sure, but I would argue that cramming people in and offering the barest of amenities is a good thing when it comes to air travel. Yes, it sucks to be in a plane but it sucks to pollute the air too. It's good that more people have more travel options now, and it's good that we can get more people to more places with less fuel than ever before. We shouldn't bitch about that, we should accept it as a necessity for getting what we want: to arrive someplace far away in an amazingly short period of time, allowing us to see more of the planet than any of our ancestors, while minimizing the harm as much as we can.
this lemmy gold earned my upvote.
Yeah, generations of people hunting for a deal and these companies responding to demand with cheaper options. So capitalism maybe but more so human behavior.
Totally, soviet planes where known from luxury and totally not from accidents /s
They used to be also fascinated by plastic.
I bet their smiles would not last long realizing that the 5g bag of pretzels has 2g of plastic (and that's just the tip of the plastiberg).
this post seems kinda bourgeoisie to me. i literally don't give a fuck because we have way bigger problems. if you're here to bitch about the amenities on an airline flight, well, i guess that must be a nice problem to have.
I for one can only complain about one problem at a time. If something's not the biggest problem in my life, I'm incapable of addressing it.
Well for me it was money, I flew Spirit
Because we don't own the means of production.
Look at you, flying on rich planes with that much space in front of you
As far as I know, economy seats are still sold at a loss. They make up for it in the higher classes. I don't fly through Doha often but when I do, I do like getting on Qatar Airways.
Don't forget that enshittification creeps into the real world as well
One word: "Greed"
That is unless you are in head class
prices are higher, quality is lower.
That won't change until they're forced to change
To be fair, the soda bubbles are extra Lucious at 30k feet.
Fly with turkish airlines. Business is heaven, but even economy food is good.
Good old airlines and their ideal business model:
Charge you like you're flying on Concorde.
Treat you like you're on a 16th century slaving ship.
I mean, in the 1950's, the planes with all the fancy food and service were basically full first class flights... to return to that weed have to have single class/first class flights and the prices to match.
I don't usually want to eat too much on flights. Especially with the toilet situation being what it is.
Singapore air? Isn't there an airline with couches and sleeping quarters? 0/10 I hate chu
Yeah but at least the quality of service has went from smiling attractive courteous flight attendants to snarling aisle donkeys.
Someone clearly doesn't understand how much it used to cost to travel by plane 50 years ago.
Also this image is bullshit
Tray tables are about half that size now.
Not on longer flights. It doesn't benefit airlines much to make smaller tray tables
Save on weight means save on gas. Multiply that by thousands of flights and it adds up. United printed their in flight magazines on lighter paper and saved hundreds of thousands of dollars, just by using thinner paper.
They only eliminated 5kg per 737, but that added up to $290k savings.
If anything I think it’d be even more effective on longer flights as those jets spend more time in cruise vs short haul airliners.
https://www.kiwi.com/stories/united-prints-lighter-magazine-saves-170000-gallons-fuel/
Good example, aviation is probably the most penny-fucking business in the planet, it’s a life and death fight between the companies, trying to keep costs low.
United makes 50B in revenue a year. I'm guessing that stunt gave them more value in marketing than actual savings.
You clearly do not understand basic math nor how rampant greed in capitalism works. Sad.
If it saves them money, they WILL do it. (or even appears to save money)
Or do you think Scrooge types aren't literally known for penny-pinching when they're already rich and wouldn't even notice the pennies going missing?
It's a good pr thing, but they probably saved more money by using lower quality paper than the saved fuel.
I suppose I don't take many long flights and I don't recall how much space I had on the last long flight I had.
Typically on my domestic flights I have a tray table that won't fit my switch if I want to stand it up.
No kidding
For the OP of this meme, you know you can still pay for food services on flights today, right?
Ehh…
Proportionally (inflation considered), flights are much cheaper now than they were 50 years ago. Consequently, flying is a more accessible mode of transport for many and has resulted in the soaring popularity of air travel, which began after deregulation. However, despite the cost drop, the base cost of flying has increased as airlines operate small profit margins and seek to remain competitive.
Yeah but it sucks.
If you want you can go first class you know. It's more or less as much as it was in the 50s and you get possibly even more luxury. Just be ready to pay 5k instead of a hundred bucks
It was like 135 bucks for the cheapest unrestricted ticket in the usa in 1975, which comes out to around 814 bucks today. Where as I can buy a round-trip ticket right now for 220, which is the equivalent of 38 bucks in 1975.
And to really put that into perspective, an average house in 1975 cost 39k, and if you take out a 20-year lone with 9% interest, you are looking at 193 bucks per month for your rent. So a single plane ticket in 1975 was 69% of the average monthly rent for a house.
Idk why I did all this, but my adhd told me I had to.
It's a shit post
Life’s been tough since Biden dropped out, hey?
But back then the price was regulated so they had to compete on service.
That might have been more that 50 years now.
Would probably be better if it still was. Less people would fly.
Not everyone's situtation is yours. There are millions of people living continents away from their family to earn money to support them.
Airliner ticket prices used to be regulated. So when all airlines had to charge the same price, they had to find other ways to be competitive in order to bring in customers. Deregulation in the 70s brought ticket costs down but that means ticket cost is now the primary point of competition between airlines and amenities now come at a steep premium.
Yep, you can have it one way or the other...cheap flights or super luxury and only the rich can fly. Planes are not cheap to operate and fuel isn't free.
And CEO bonuses and shareholder dividends must always be high-flying.
But even with that margins are tight, so 99.5% of why your flight is expensive is that planes are not cheap to operate and fuel isn't free. But we can pretend it's all the other thing to maintain slave morality.
Also when was the last time an airline stock paid a dividend? I'm sure one of them pays dividends but most pay dividends never.
Delta is paying a dividend of $0.15 per share in August. Southwest paid $0.18 this month. Spirit used to pay $0.10 but I don't think they do any more.
So tight! Can barely afford to keep the plane in the air what with all the stock buybacks.
Lately most airlines are making insane profits from their banking-skymiles partnership deals and less from actual ticket-holders
Frankly for short haul flights it makes sense. Would it be worth paying double or triple for a three hour flight just to get a full meal? Anyone who truly wants a taste of old time flying can get that with a first class ticket, both in terms of cost and quality.
But on the plus side normal people can use air travel now.
I'm not so sure that is a positive. Airplanes are huge emission drivers and our dependence on the convenience of air travel has caused us to cease investment and innovation in other more efficient and environmentally friendly methods of travel.
No doubt there'd be a lot more support for high speed rails if airplanes weren't as accessible. IMO airplanes should only really be used for intercontinental travel.
When you factor in the number of people the airplane carries, they are about 3 times more efficient than a car with one person in it.
Note they mentioned rail as the desired alternative, rather than cars.
Just saying, compared to driving, airplanes are usually better. Also trains in the US suck. Much slower, and almost comparable in price to air travel.
It doesn't have to be that way, many other countries have solved those issues. But because we've leaned so heavily on air travel to get us to places only a few hours away by land there hasn't been any incentive to innovate or invest in other forms of long-distance mass transit.
Seeing as I can see my family and not be homeless, I consider it a positive.
Are you saying a high speed train to your destination wouldn't also solve that problem? It would likely end up being cheaper to travel via rail considering the lower costs of maintenance and fuel, meaning further accessibility than we have today with our dependence on air travel.
Yes I am, as most trains don't cross oceans.
That's fair, and please note that I mentioned air travel has its place in intercontinental travel in my previous comment. The whole point I'm trying to make is that domestic flights between areas that could support high speed land travel infrastructure are wasteful.
Even within continents, high speed rail is expensive, many cities and towns aren't large enough or near large enough cities to make it practical. This would mean distant connections on slow trains and very long journeys.
I think you run into the same problem with airports though. Regional airports in smaller cities are often prohibitively expensive to fly in and out of. When I fly home, I fly to the nearest major metropolitan area and then drive two and a half hours to my destination rather than pay hundreds more to fly to my hometown's regional airport. That doesn't sound much different from the problem you're describing with a high speed rail network.
The cost of high speed rail travel will come down with increased utilization since the scale of cost for adding extra seats is a lot flatter than it is for air travel. Travel times by land are always going to be longer than by air but there's plenty of room to optimize the systems we currently have.
Beyond that, convenience and sustainability are diametrically opposed and if we want to continue to live in symbiosis with our environment then we're going to have to make some sacrifices to the convenience we now take for granted and that is directly harming our environment.
This is the sort of weird back in the day post that doesn't make sense. Boomers not understanding house prices and minimum wage, that is true.
This plane ticket stuff is wrong. For about the same cost as a ticket back in the day you get way more. In 1955, a one way transatlantic flight was roughly £5k. That's $6.3k freedom dollars, one way. You can today buy a ticket on that type of route for half that price that includes a lie flat bed, amenities and pyjamas, 2 hot meals, unlimited snacks, unlimited drinks, lounge access on departure and arrival, priority check-in, boarding an ungodly amount of luggage, etc. And in the lounges you get free food cooked to order, free unlimited drinks, free second tier food like buffets, etc.
If you want to spend the equivalent money or a bit more, you could fly even better. You can have a private chef onboard making a meal for you anytime you want. You can take a shower in the sky. You can have a literal bedroom and attached private living room in a mini suite just for you. And that's flying commercial.
The other side of it is that now people can also buy a ticket for $25. Which would be completely unfathomable back when civil rights weren't a thing.
Is this already inflation adjusted or was it 5k 1955-pounds, because that would make the difference way more extreme
I adjusted it for inflation already.
Okay thanks!
Came here to write something like that. 💯
That entirely depends on how tall you are. Walking through those seats on my way to have my knees crammed into the seat in front of me in coach I realized that even in first class I'm too big for an airplane.
Maybe there's a market for a big & tall airline.
The old ones have seats with about 72in of lie flatness which is 6ft. But unless you sleep like a Victorian ghost, most people bend their knees or legs somehow. My friend that is 6ft4in has no issues and he's tall and wide.
Most of the new ones are 76in to 82in. 6ft 10in is pretty generous. And if you need longer, there are first class seats which are full beds and you'd have no issue.
I fly in a pod every few weeks for 12hr+ flights and it's very comfortable. I am hoping blimp travel makes a come back as I'd love to take the scenic way back with a full suite one day.
I've got a california king bed and frequently wake up with my feet dangling over one end and my arms over the other. I really, really doubt I'd fit on an 82 inch bed that has no space around it. And that doesn't get into the constant light and noise and people on a plane which make it even harder for me to sleep, even if I could get comfortable.
Though many people have made it clear to me that airplanes are not supposed to be comfortable or nice, just something to endure to get to where you're going.
Cheaper innit.
Succinct
The people in the top picture still fly like that.
The people in the bottom picture couldn't afford to fly at all in the past.
We are too reliant on air travel as it is. With the advent of the internet we should reduce air travel down to permitted leisure/visiting family and migration. Businesses should be able to video confernce most transactions. The situations where you absolutely need on site representation can be reduced drastically.
That is, if you took climate change seriously.
HA. So look, I do agree. Problem is businesses don't care, even if we do. If you figure out a way to stop management across way too many professions from holding hour long meetings to talk about some data point that has so significance to what is actually happening, and those "leaders" who call meetings early to get the team together, when the whole damn thing could be in an email...yeah man, when you solve that, I'll work with you to solve the rest.
Ok, but like I'm not going to solve it. It's not also going to be solved today. I'm just saying you want to gripe about your shitty airplane experience like we need to make it a luxury resort when really we need to stop pumping carbon into the atmosphere.
Almost everyone who travels a lot for work wants this too.
Rowboats my friend. Rowboats.
Plus, high-speed rail is better for the environment.
Not having to do unnecessary travel at all beats every transportation mode…
Yes, and necessary travel doesn't need to be via car or plane.
It can be extremely luxurious if you pay.
I'd rather get to my destination with my wallet still in tact, but you do you.
So I remember taking a flight 10 years ago and they gave us pretzel pieces from snyders. I thought, great, we don't even get whole pretzels...
Next flight, they give us generic "trail mix" in clear bags. The kind the old folks down the street would give out at Halloween because it was "healthy." but that contained approximately 2 pretzels the size of quarters, 3 peanuts, 3 generic m&ms, and 2 raisins...
It gave me the impression that airlines are like schools, where the flight staff are the ones bringing in the snacks because the airline is too cheap to supply them.
My teacher friends live in big houses and travel all over the world but you know whatever. I don't.
Liar.
My grandparents were both teachers and are rich. Granted one was a professor, but the other a public school teacher.
In any case, anecdotes do not and cannot disprove the actual statistics.
Also, if you live in a country that actually respects intelligence, I'd HOPE your teachers are actually paid well. Sadly, the US despises intelligence right now...
In dying rural areas in the US teachers are generally some of the best paid. Its mostly in cities where their pay lags. But no, they live in the US in LA(CA, not the state). Also, FYI just because I live in one country doesn't mean its the same my grandparents live in.
Ahh yes, California, a state that pays more, AND in LA, where wages are WAY higher because cost of living is way higher...
Thank you for describing why your anecdote is an outlier and DEFINITELY doesn't prove any norm.
Where did I say it was the norm??? You called someone a liar for giving an anecdote. Outliers do happen...
They're a liar for attempting to use an anecdote to disprove a trend. That's basic, basic manipulation tactics. Manipulation is wrong, misleading, and arguably lying when misusing data.
They never said anything about a trend. They said not all teachers are poor. That doesn't mean they were disagreeing that teachers tend to be underpaid.
Airlines were not more luxurious 50 years ago.
You had more legroom and the TSA didn't exist, but everything else was way worse.
Yah, but you could smoke.
Yuck. That's a con.
I swear, nobody on Lemmy gets sarcasm without being slapped in the face with it.
Everyone on lemmy is autistic.
Or grew up around conservatives and heard that shit being said unironically.
I still hear people fondly reminisce about leaded gas. If you think I'm missing a joke, no. They will drive to airports to buy the leaded gas they sell there.
And here I thought the lightbulb shit was stupid.
Seriously tho, like reddit was autistic enough but now you gotta be even more niche enough to know about smaller better reddit.
I blame it on the fact that autists will literally rip something apart if its making a weird noise. So a lot left reddit for being broken. Source I am autistic.
Let's maybe not use "autism" so derogatorily?
Autism is better than every ism.
Every organism?
Well if there wasn't an organism, there would be no autism. Now the rant: I still don't get why people bully us, while their image of autism is heavily influenced by stereotypes and old research.
You clearly havent experienced late stage redneckism. Its fun.
Archs car battery... again.
Well, we do what we can, but there’s only so much acetaminophen (paracetamol for our British friends) you can give to pregnant women.
I have no clue what you said, but I like your words magic man.
I’ve been told I have a pretty mouth.
I am acoustic, thank you very much.
Stay strong! Don’t give up the fight.
No, non-believer! Fill your your lungs and be saved!
Not so much could as did.
Smoking section: 20 rows, next to the air filters.
Non-smoking section: any seat where the ashtray in the armrest didn't work
Also the safety was statistically worse for the most part
Eh, if you're looking for the cheapest ticket available you can't really expect luxury. Airlines are competing with prices, so all luxury goes off the window like a passenger on a Boeing flight
Cuz first class used to be the only class.
Because our children’s children will still be paying the tab for that unsustainable opulence. Fuck they’ll be paying the bill for recreational air travel with only pretzels.
Stupid. The cost for flights then was more like beyond first class prices now.
And a lot more smoky.
This reminded me of that one flight as a kid, when I was seated in a row with two smokers. I literally couldn’t breathe. I’m happy that my kids don’t have to experience shit like this.
Don't like the smoke? Then sit on the other side of the aisle in the non-smoking section.
The amount of people who think flying is a normal thing. One percent of the worlds population produce 50% of aviation emissions. And most off the worlds population never fly in their life.
When the corpo wars start I'm just going to shoot them out of the sky
Because you always buy the cheaper seats. It's not your fault, I do the same. Flying was literally for the wealthiest of people at that point in history, it was literally a luxury to fly instead of taking a train, bus, or a boat.
Indeed, I do prefer a can of cola, some pretzels and five crisp hundred dollar notes.
That tray table is WAYYYYY too big and luxurious - they have shrunk legroom so dramatically now that you get a little sliver about the width of your shoe.
That cup is about double the size they give now.
You didn't get to pick those pretzels, there was just the single "choice" now.
Also, you didn't get to pick that seat and you had to have last minute anxiety that you wouldn't even be assigned a seat by the gate agent at the airport (after already taking time off from work to travel and committing $100+ for uber or airport parking)
You also paid at least an extra $100 to have a carryon bag (more depending on your route) and even more for a checked bag.
your seatback no longer has a screen in it. You have to submit to letting airline gorge on your personal data by granting permissions to run entertainment from your own phone and drain your battery.
Also, though they removed screen and expect you to use your own device, no viable phone holder provided to put your phone in a proper viewing position, so you'll crane and hurt your neck throughout flight.
Also, your base airline ticket is now more expensive than in the past baggie all these upcharges and compromises.
shitty rental car at your destination now costs $100/day and parking at your hotel is not free, and is in fact $30-$50 additional per night.
And your garbage hotel room costs 3X what it should.
Even spirit airlines allows you to pick your seat provided you book in advance
It doesn't though with the basic fares now. Boarding pass has "see gate agent" printed where a seat assignment would be. And no guarantee of a couple/family being seated together.
Also always rumors of airlines testing stacked or standing seats to cram even more people in each plane.
Oh yeah, they may have charged like $10 for me to pick my seat, but that seemed worth it for a guaranteed window seat
Depends on the market probably, but a lot of spots it's like $50-$100 extra, each way, to upgrade to the seat level that let's you choose a seat. Frontier and spirit used to be the joke, but most of them are doing it now. Cliche joke used to be that they'd charge you each time you used the bathroom (maybe they actually happened in Europe, Ryanair?) But like too many things, we're close to living the onion.
Allegiant and Frontier don't, unless you want to pay extra to pick your seat. Some will cost more than others.
You COULD be paying for first class seats and getting that kind of treatment, but you're flying Economy, aren't you.
You guys get snacks?
With Ryanair I’m thankful that they have to offer a seat.
There's no snacks. Maybe a mini bag of pretzels if the flight is over 5 hrs long.
And you get that for free? That’s wild! I really mean that I’m happy Ryanair has to offer me a seat
Y'all know you're allowed to bring your own food right?
Not drinks though. Man, that time our whole family of five got detained for an hour and given the bomb sniffing treatment because my wife brought a tube of baby butt cream that was a 1/4 ounce too big
But I want to pay 3,50€ for a bottle of water and 10€ for horse meat lasagna
With Ryanair you have to pay extra for the air stewardess not to spit on your face or insult you on the way in.
(I might be exaggerating)
(But not by much)
That’s the only service I would happily pay extra for but they do it for free
Look at Mr. Moneybags over here, getting a drink that's not water.
people would rather be assfucked by a super sonic wheel than be fingered by the TSA
Please just let me recline a bit more.
Meanwhile, me aboard a train: "Oh you can get whole massive meals on restaurant cars these days? No thank you, I'll get a coffee and one of those overpriced naff sandwiches." (Well, the Finnish train sandwiches are pretty good, but they are hella overpriced. Like 7€. WTF.)
7 Euros = 7.55 USD That is a pretty normal price for a sandwich in the USA. I wish I considered that overpriced. 5 or more years ago I probably would have said that was overpriced.
they're overpriced in the sense that a sandwich does not in any universe cost that much to actually produce, not in the sense that they charge more than other people do for sandwiches.
7 euros isn't too much more than what a sandwich can tend to cost at Pressbyrån in sweden, which is infamous for charging out the ass for everything just because they can. A normal grocery store that carries some premade sandwiches might charge more like 5 euro for them.
Because what are you gonna do? Take a boat to cross the Atlantic? Like you're some puritan running from Anglicanism?
Like you're some Greta Thumberg trying to make a valid point.
Ship travel in the age of sail was more accommodating. At least you can walk around and shit.
It takes so much longer though. I don't think I'd prefer the travel time of a ship over the sea over the temporary discomfort of a flight.
i mean we can make pretty fast boats at this point, and sleeper trains are plenty popular.
I think a 3-day transatlantic cruise from Calais to NYC would attract quite a lot of people, it wouldn't be the main way to go from europe to america but for anyone on a leisure trip, why not? Or if you're moving between the continents, that's a pretty stellar way to mark the change in your life.
Only up on the poop deck though.
Because Americans have no class consciousness
My father's generation thought planes would just get faster and faster and by now we'd be able to fly from NYC to Tokyo in 40 minutes
Concorde wasn't far off that sort of speed. But it was too expensive. Such speeds will probably return in some form one day.
The concorde took 180 minutes (3 hours) to travel from New York to London (3,000 nautical miles).
Ignoring range limits, a trip from New York to Tokyo (5,861 nautical miles) at that speed would take 351 minutes (5.8 hours).
Sadly, missile technology usurped bombers, so there was no reason for the government to pay for the development of large, ultra-fast aircraft after the early 70s
Just put seats on the missile then? I don't know I'm not an engineer
Elon already thought of that
And the “free” pretzels are also sponsored with an ad on the packaging.
capitalism. next question?
actually, don't bother! just assume the answer to why things suck is always capitalism unless you find hard evidence to the contrary.
Planes are three times faster, five times longer range and 95% cheaper per mile, in real terms, than those early days.
The consumer was given the choice and they chose this. Honestly, air travel is great.
Yes, capitalism sucks. I hate being nickle and dimed for hand luggage, lottery tickets, snacks, hidden booking fees and all that shit. Some gentle regulations would be really nice, just to curb the excess.
saying consumers were given a choice is a bit generous.
also standing planes incoming.
They were and still are given a choice. I can fly from London to New York on British Airways first class or Easyjet. Consumers consistently choose the cheapest headline price.
You can also buy a Ferrari over a Honda, doesn’t mean everyone can afford it making it not a choice at all.
Virtually no one could afford air travel prior to the 1960s, that's a very large part of my point. It got affordable in the 70s and very affordable in the 80s.
In the UK, at some point during the 80s, it became normal for almost every single working family to get on a plane and go somewhere sunny once a year for two weeks. Every year. Minimum.
Ok, fair point. Just came off a little weird to me.
Sorry, I know I'm not always the clearest. :)
Happens to me too! Sometimes it’s hard to put thoughts to words and shit
Look, I'm basically a communist most of the time, but I don't think this is a good take. I'll admit I don't actually know the numbers but I know air travel is expensive and not great for the planet.
It could be better, sure, but I would argue that cramming people in and offering the barest of amenities is a good thing when it comes to air travel. Yes, it sucks to be in a plane but it sucks to pollute the air too. It's good that more people have more travel options now, and it's good that we can get more people to more places with less fuel than ever before. We shouldn't bitch about that, we should accept it as a necessity for getting what we want: to arrive someplace far away in an amazingly short period of time, allowing us to see more of the planet than any of our ancestors, while minimizing the harm as much as we can.
this lemmy gold earned my upvote.
Yeah, generations of people hunting for a deal and these companies responding to demand with cheaper options. So capitalism maybe but more so human behavior.
Totally, soviet planes where known from luxury and totally not from accidents /s
They used to be also fascinated by plastic.
I bet their smiles would not last long realizing that the 5g bag of pretzels has 2g of plastic (and that's just the tip of the plastiberg).
this post seems kinda bourgeoisie to me. i literally don't give a fuck because we have way bigger problems. if you're here to bitch about the amenities on an airline flight, well, i guess that must be a nice problem to have.
I for one can only complain about one problem at a time. If something's not the biggest problem in my life, I'm incapable of addressing it.
Well for me it was money, I flew Spirit
Because we don't own the means of production.
Look at you, flying on rich planes with that much space in front of you
As far as I know, economy seats are still sold at a loss. They make up for it in the higher classes. I don't fly through Doha often but when I do, I do like getting on Qatar Airways.
Don't forget that enshittification creeps into the real world as well
One word: "Greed"
That is unless you are in head class
prices are higher, quality is lower.
That won't change until they're forced to change
To be fair, the soda bubbles are extra Lucious at 30k feet.
Fly with turkish airlines. Business is heaven, but even economy food is good.
Good old airlines and their ideal business model:
Charge you like you're flying on Concorde.
Treat you like you're on a 16th century slaving ship.
I mean, in the 1950's, the planes with all the fancy food and service were basically full first class flights... to return to that weed have to have single class/first class flights and the prices to match.
I don't usually want to eat too much on flights. Especially with the toilet situation being what it is.
Singapore air? Isn't there an airline with couches and sleeping quarters? 0/10 I hate chu
Yeah but at least the quality of service has went from smiling attractive courteous flight attendants to snarling aisle donkeys.
Talking about service workers like that is 🚩🚩🚩