The double standard for Harris and Trump has reached a breaking point | One candidate can rant about gibberish while the other has to be perfect.
Something is wrong with this split-screen picture. On one side, former president Donald Trump rants about mass deportations and claims to have stopped "wars with France," after being described by his longest-serving White House chief of staff as a literal fascist. On the other side, commentators debate whether Vice President Kamala Harris performed well enough at a CNN town hall to "close the deal."
...
Let’s review: First, Harris was criticized for not doing enough interviews — so she did multiple interviews, including with nontraditional media. She was criticized for not doing hostile interviews — so she went toe to toe with Bret Baier of Fox News. She was criticized as being comfortable only at scripted rallies — so she did unscripted events, such as the town hall on Wednesday. Along the way, she wiped the floor with Trump during their one televised debate.
Trump, meanwhile, stands before his MAGA crowds and spews nonstop lies, ominous threats, impossible promises and utter gibberish. His rhetoric is dismissed, or looked past, without first being interrogated.
because most major media supports trump.
You mean the ones whos mega-rich owners are being promised massive tax cuts by trump? Those very same ones?
I'm shocked to my core. I'm glad I was sitting down when I read your comment.
But but but there's no direct physical evidence of these major media owners handing giant round bags of cash with big dollar signs on them to trump personally while they twirl their moustaches!!!
Don't you see - we can't know if they support him or not!
/s obvs christ some people on here are russian trolls or steadfastly refuse to understand a goddamned thing
A lot of them aren't just in it for the tax cuts but because they like the ideology.
What if they disguised their sociopathic greed as ideology?
You forgot the racism.
Imo, when it comes down to it, a lot of them won't give a care what colour their wage slaves are, in much the same way that most of them aren't really Christian or are secretly gay etc.
Imagine having to come out as a non-rascist to your conservative parents
Fuck that
They make feinting chairs for a reason, after all 🤔
Fainting is passing out. Feinting is bluffing.
I suppose that poker chairs would be Feinting chairs.
Lol my bad 🙃
Or mimics
Those too.
And the few sources that may not be owned by Trump-backing Nazis still have to have their horse race. They want to make it seem close to get clicks and sell ads.
Trump is the best thing to happen for News Media since 9/11.
And they would do anything to have another 4 years of people obsessively watching/viewing/clicking all day every day to see what insane thing hes done to the country next.
Weird 34 is their headline-grabbing fat cash cow.
"Moo for us! Cha ching! Yeah!"
The truth is not better but there's some nuance. Major media do not usually care about being for or against fascism. They care about clicks, and following "journalistic ethics" that boil down to Enlightened Centrism™ and bothsidesism.
Their billionaire owners don't even have to interfere (most of the time). The system self-selects to make money through a shared set of beliefs in what constitutes "proper journalism". This makes journalists, as a profession, ontologically incapable of fighting against fascists. They truly, honestly, firmly believe that "Fascist about to win US Presidency" is not a statement of fact.
It's the same ideological pitfalls that makes Serious Media pit science against whichever anti-science fad is trendy right now. Vaccines, "climatic skepticism", etc. anything goes and the journalists in charge truly genuinely from their heart believe that is a fair and balanced approach.
Not to say there aren't actual conspiracies from time to time of course, but even actual independent traditional journalism has generally failed to accurately report on the rise of fascism.
No, they definitely care for Trump to be elected. Major media is owned by oligarchs. Oligarchs support fascism. Plan and simple
Like most conspiracy theories, there is a huge grain of truth there. Bush should have done 9/11 because it benefitted him in literally every way. Yet he did not.
Today's WaPo scandal illustrates the more real situation quite well: usually the billionaires take a mostly hands-off approach to owning a paper. They don't need to meddle. The journalists are ontologically incapable of being truly disruptive regardless of if the paper is owned by Bezos or funded by an independent government committee. That Bezos presumably felt the need to prevent the WaPo from endorsing Harris was unusual and a big enough deal for the journalists to raise a big stink. And as someone who lives in a country that has a strong tradition of independent and state-funded journalism (that doesn't shy away from criticizing the government)... I can tell you it's not very different from the rest. Certainly not as left-wing as it gets, and just as vulnerable to the fallacies I described.
That is not to say there is no outright corruption of big prestigious papers, or that oligarchs owning the press isn't a massive, glaring threat to Democracy. But beware of oversimplifying such issues. For one because you might regret making such sweeping statements when the billionaires actually decide to wield their power, Murdoch style. And for two because you might be disappointed to find that prestigious independently owned papers aren't so much better. Don't expect them to start printing Marxist pamphlets any time soon if that's what you are into.
No, we are not talking about Marxist. In fact I said fascists which you keep stesteering away from. Who pays you toispread propaganda?
...but the magabrained keep telling us that the corporate media is all liberal! Their proof? Supposed polls of the help at those MNCs. I'd like to know in what universe the help determine the direction of a MNC.
Fucking propaganda machines.
Major immediate supports the GOP. This is hardly new or unique to Trump. It’s been like this for decades.
What's new is how far down they're willing to go to continue to do that.
"New" as in - in the last decade. Not like, new new.
With someone so stupid and weird and gross as donnie, it's become nearly impossible to hide the corporate game.
I'll take the downvotes, but a large part of this is because she's a woman. "One candidate (a man) can rant about gibberish while the other (a woman) has to be perfect." doesn't just apply to politics, this sounds like every office I've ever worked in.
the slogan I've seen on some shirts, "Good thing we are only looking for equality and not revenge" comes to mind.
As a straight white man, I wouldn't mind wearing a shirt that says "Good thing they only want equality and not revenge" and let people guess who it is referring to.
Jesus Christ, I love that so much.
For sure.
It does not help that her town hall tone was very.. very .. I don't know.. pleading/worrying/low energy. I almost had Hillary feelings at some points.
She had fire, spirit.. her campaign has toned down a lot since the DNC... Which is unfortunate.
Edit! For the Down voters, I never said trump good.. he's horrible. I was merely pointing out that her messaging changed, probably under the directions of the DNC. Cookie cutter plain answers.. everything focus grouped.
And there it is, folks.
There is what? I can see the difference between pre DNC Kamala and post DNC, can't you? The tone is more tempered and she is sometimes almost whiney in her conversations, way too coached.
Before the DNC she was way more relatable, joyous, and direct. A powerfully woman that I think a lot of people looked up to. Now every answer goes back to the talking points.. she hardly answered any questions or committed to anything. Even her running mate toned down.
She is still a better choice over a rambling senile fascist but I think the US deserve the pre DNC Kamala and I hope that's what they get when she is elected. A powerfully woman that is not controlled by the democratic party.
The double standards applied to her are misogynistic and the media is doing everything to samewash trump and put weight on Kamala to be perfect. Trump has concepts of a plan and the media goes on and on how Kamala should show direct policy plans and have it all figured out. Trump was president for 4 years but her track record as VICE president seems to be the point of debate. It's disgusting.
From a non Americans viewpoint I also have to say that it probably does not help that the Dems platform now seems very close to bush republicans on a lot of things.. the Overton window moved.. a lot.
there's the ridiculous double standard.
take every critique you have for her - pleading/worrying/low energy - they all apply in spades IF NOT MORE to trump.
and no one's questioned Kamala's loyalties, but Trump's talking to putin on the regular.
YET SOMEHOW THIS IS STILL A CONTEST? double standard bullshit
1000000% the double standard that is applied to kamala compared to Trump seen in the media makes my blood boil. And it should do so for everyone. But the propaganda machine of the billionaire class is very effective.
I wasn't comparing Kamala to Trump (as there is no comparison possible, she is leagues beyond anything he can even dream of… although Id favor bernie over her any day), I was merely observing a difference between pre and post DNC Kamala. Now she feels more like a Hillary bot in the town hall.
I also believe there are no centrist or undecided voters in the US, only people still ashamed to say out loud they will vote for an open fascist.
and their control over endorsements see LA Times & Wapo. It's... fucking demoralizing.
BUT!
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2024/10/25/2279400/-About-time-Charlamagne-tha-God-slams-CNN-for-its-BS-election-coverage
I think he did a great job. Would be fantastic to see this reaction widespread.
Oh wow.. good on him. More people need to do this.
This is a result of the electoral college. It is more important to get centrist states to vote than for millions urban voters to be excited.
No centrist cares. They see any admission that Harris is anything other than perfect as Trump support.
While any sane person can see a ham sandwich is preferrable over trump..
Of course. But that doesn't mean that people who would prefer pastrami support Trump.
This is the most 🇺🇸🦅🇺🇸🦅🇺🇸🦅comment I've read all day.
Keep it weird, US
It’s obvious that there is a double standard but it’s too late to point it out.
Time is up.
If people are “undecided” they aren’t going to even consider media fairness or maybe even logic at this point.
It’s Donald Fuckin Trump. Rapist. Fascist. Liar. Cheat. Insert hundreds of other negatives and reasons why he should not have power and be in jail.
It’s voting time. That’s all that’s left. He won the media and the narrative enough to make it a race at all. Pointing it out now is fruitless - he got away with that shit for his purposes.
It has been pointed out for as long as Trump is running against any candidate but it didn't change a thing. If anything, the double standard only got worse over the years.
I was hopeful when media figures started to ask themselves how to better cover Trump after 2016. NPR and On The Media had some decent journalism panels where they dug into the problems with obeying long-standing rules/norms to cover a candidate that weaponizes them. I saw a possibility for real reflection and maybe a significant course correction. That door slammed shut like 2 fucking years ago, and they've played EXACTLY the same game over this campaign. I knew we were fucked when a reporter came on after the Biden-Trump debate to say, essentially, "...and some of Trump's supporters have claimed, without evidence, that Joe Biden has died."
That's it. That was the end of her coverage. They can't even bring themselves to open their eyes long enough to observe unequivocally THAT THE PRESIDENT IS NOT DEAD. If the American experiment fails, a shitload of blame will lay at the feet of the media, who have long since abandoned their pursuit of "T"ruth in favor of the toxoplasma of rage.
I completely forgot about this until I read your comment. My grandmother whole-heartedly believed Biden was a clone or had been replaced by a doppelganger by the middle of his first year as President, and that he had died of covid. By then she had stopped watching FOX and moved on to OANN.
It's weird that there's a person that you can call a liar, rapist and con man and not be afraid of being sued for libel or slander, and lots of people think he'll be great at running a country.
For this election, sure, but there is still a good reason to acknowledge the double standard that has been ongoing for decades now that it is comically blatant. It might be acknowledged by low information idiots in the future.
Looking at the fivethiryeight predictions pages, Trump already has a lock or lean right on 262 votes, and Harris is at 226. Harris has to take Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan or its over, and her voters are in disarray and are half hearted while trumps always vote stronger than polling indicates. It looks to be effectively over unless Harris makes some big changes to energize her base. She's sure as hell not going to get anything by pissing off even more people by digging rightward, but I'd bet real money that thats what she will try.
If she'd pledge to stop the weapons flow on day 1 she'd have the race, but she wont do that, for whatever reason.
I think she’ll take Michigan.
A lot of people are answering undecided on polls in protest over Harris support for the Israeli genocide but intend to actually vote for her due to the significantly worse threat posed by Trump. She could massively improve her polling numbers by just committing to stopping arms shipments to Israel and imposing sanctions on them.
This is highly unlikely to cause a statistically significant difference in the polls. Having this strong of a view point on the matter is largely isolated to a specific demographic of younger, progressive voters, who are notoriously difficult to reach and accurately account for via traditional polling methods.
It registers as the 15th most important issue via a Gallup poll, and that doesn't account for which "side" the individuals polled support.
Of the 30% of the population saying it is an "extremely important issue," it gives no indication of what their desired resolution is.
On the extreme end of the spectrum, consider that 30% of our nation is in a death cult that believes Israel plays a role in their eventual salvation, not to mention how many people are blatantly racist and view anyone with darker skin as a terrorist.
I am registered, politically active, not difficult to locate and have had the same phone number for 20 years, yet, I MIGHT have been polled once in that time!
This isn't to say there aren't those who are doing as they say, but it is not likely to move polls one way or another.
You getting downvoted for your suggestion with no replies as to why shows that this place has a lot of hasbara operating in it. They are actively destroying the democratc party, and the US as a whole, and they couldnt care less about that.
That's actually a pretty idiotic way to "protest."
Wow, we've got inaccurate polls. Good job?
Well, the poll is accurate in so much as they really don't "support" Harris and her policies. If we had a proportional voting system they would be voting for her near the middle of the pack with Trump of course in dead last. She's just the second worst choice between the two choices we're given.
"Best choice". Seems way easier to say.
Arms deals to Israel are codified into law. President can’t just “stop” them.
Talk to Congress.
Nonsense, Not shipping arms to countries plausibly beleive to be involved in genocide is the Leahy law. All she'd have to say is "I beleive theres concern here and thus the shipments stop, according to our compliance with our own laws". She doesnt need congress.
Until House Republicans pass a bill to force the scheduled shipments to continue. Again. (Didn't get to the floor of the Democratically-controlled Senate the first time.)
One side must bring peace to the middle east, the other side is allowed to tell Israel to kill Palestinians faster.
And before someone comes defending their stance not to vote for either genocidal enabler, why aren't you trying to save as many people as possible? Are you ok with more people dying because of your ideals? Enjoy living with that choice if he wins.
It's not only about Palestine. Americans should now focus on the things they can actually change. Harris is the best candidate overall, because, well, her adversary is Donald F. Trump, but when it comes to Israel and Palestine both candidates are abysmal.
Harris should have ran for the side telling Israel to kill Palestinians faster then. She is wording her support for it more eloquently than Trump.
I'm not even American but this voter-shaming is both frustrating to read and fucking stupid. Nobody—and I repeat, nobody—is going to vote because they were blamed by a random guy on the internet who refuses to acknowledge their very real concern that voting for Harris would be voting for genocide.
And not voting for Harris gets you three genocides. Gaza, Ukraine, and the LGBTQ community at home. So, yeah, anyone that "can't vote for genocide" is a moron or a shill.
OK thought exercise for you: If the LGBTQ folks cant be bothered to care about the murder of gazans, why should I be bothered to care about LGBTQ folks? I'm not LGBTQ myself. How about Ukrainians, or disabled people? I'm not one of those either.
If you are OK turning your back on them, then your turn, as LGBTQ, or black, or muslim or disabled, or mormon or vegan or...whatever is just a matter of time. So you can stand up for basic human rights or you can stand alone when it comes to your rights. Take your pick.
Again, if this shit worked Trump wouldn't have won in 2016.
Cool. If people weren't acting like morons I wouldn't be calling them morons and if I was part of the Harris campaign instead of some asshole on the Internet I might try to be more diplomatic about it. But I'm not going to coddle a bunch of people who are too stupid to understand the implications of a two party system.
snicker someone doesn't know how voting works clearly when living in a blue/red state.
also can someone find me a rabies shot? this one is foaming at the mouth.
just leave it alone and stay away from it. It will die soon enough on its own.
And given that American voters exist in a 2 party system, nobody should be under the illusion that they have any other choice. Don't encourage people to delude themselves into thinking there is a better alternative. They're right, you're right, what's the best option?
That's y'all's problem to figure out, but bullying people into voting simply doesn't work. Don't respond to a statement of facts with "should".
I'm not trying to bully people into voting, just making sure that this dangerously short sighted bullshit doesn't go unchallenged. Thank you for proving my point.
They are not high info influencers they're low-brow bullies with almost no understanding of the way the world works. Since they don't have a leg to stand on morally, all they can use is accusations that others are as ignorant as they. So it's not like they gonna stop, runnin their gums is all they got
Opposition to genocide isn't an option on the ballot, you can't vote for it, especially not for president. And not voting sends a very clear message whether you intend it or not: "I don't care".
Do you value minimizing harm? If you care most about genocide, Harris seems to be the least-worst option. But if you care more about ideological purity than harm reduction, you can vote for a non-serious candidate like Stein, or none at all. Nobody will ever solve this kind of problem at the ballot box, that isn't how democracies work, but if letting things happen instead of exerting what little power you have eases your conscience, that's your right. Doing so does mean a greater risk of a Trump presidency, especially if you live in a swing state.
I would rather minimize harm, so I'm voting for Harris, and encourage others to do the same.
She passed the bar exam and operated as a lawyer for years independently defending special assault victims and others victims. She never went bankrupt and has been successful
Trump boasted you need to be "quite" smart to win golf club championships during the debate with Biden, he went bankrupt multiple times and raped women. He can't even hang onto lawyers
Yet Republicans are now calling kamala incompetent
Well of course Kamala is incompetent to them, their goal is to destroy America and only Trump can deliver that.
He doesn't even need to be president to do that. He's succeeding regardless.
So might as well vote kamala if that's the reason
One side expects their candidates to hold some standards, the other side doesn't care. It's like watching a sporting event with a homer who only sees the world based on how it effects their team winning or losing. Fairness doesn't come into play, the other side is always cheating and getting favored media exposure.
The misogyny is thick.
Don't forget the racism too!
Weird that this has to be explained this late into the game but…
Trump is running on the promise of enacting fascism and using state power to mete out retribution to the ‘undesirables’ that his voters blame for their lack of power. To this end there is nothing he can say or do that will make them not vote for him. He is promising power and as long as he wins his promise is kept.
Kamala is running on a platform of ‘not fascism’ and to that end she does need to provide a coherent alternate worldview to mindless retribution. It’s not enough for her to walk the middle of the road and say as little as possible. She needs to give people a diametrically opposed worldview. She needs to be capable of explaining why fascist retribution isn’t good or helpful. She can not just be a diet Republican. She needs to have coherent answers to their obvious bullshit.
Hope this helps. Horrifying that the people who are a decade into Trumpism and ostensibly responsible for stopping it don’t seem to have the slightest clue what motivates it or how to counter it.
She has been talking about a different way of doing things though, I got the feeling she talked about many policies in the debate that people have ignored.
Non American here, but it really feels like there is nothing she can do to shake the non-trump thing. Lemmy is full of "Trump bad", but I'm missing the "Kamala good". Its as though no one wants to say it, and it feels like it always comes back to Israel. That is understandable too, however she is not a one policy candidate, however it feels like that is how its reduced.
Honestly I get the feeling that its either:
I want to see the "Kamala stands good on policy X" posts here. They should exist but where are they?
No I dont condone the Israel shit, but there has to be more to it. That's too simple.
Is she?
She just got on national TV and refused to support trans rights. Democrats ran to the right of fascists on militarizing the border. She is pro imperialism. She isn’t committed to climate change. She’s not going to meaningfully redistribute wealth. Looking at how desperate Americans are right now do you really think that coming out with a plan to raise the top marginal tax rate from 30 to 35 percent or whatever is some massive rallying cry that’s going to make people re-evaluate their worldviews? She’s not even that strong on abortion rights.
Not sure exactly what you’re referring to, but if you’re referring to the Fox News interview, I think she addressed trans rights as well as she possibly could’ve to…a Fox News audience…without completely losing them.
I call BS.
That’s too strong a statement. She co-sponsored the Green New Deal, gave an entire speech about climate change at COP28 and again this past July, and has an entire “Lower Energy Costs and Tackle the Climate Crisis” section on her issues page. On top of that, actions speak louder than words, and the one meaningful action she can wield as VP - casting tie-breaking Senate votes - was used to enact the Inflation Reduction Act, which works in a meaningful way to combat climate change.
Idk what your metric for “meaningful wealth redistribution is” but the kind of “wealth redistribution” many middle Americans want is the kind where they can afford to start a new family, and/or afford their first home, and/or afford to start a new business. All of those have been addressed explicitly by Harris and her policy plan, and they go meaningfully beyond what we have now. Your other comment that she’d ‘raise the top marginal tax rate by 5% or whatever’ makes it sound like that’s literally the only action she’d take to make the lives of middle-class people better.
You’re not outright saying she’s weak on abortion, b/c I think you and I both know she isn’t - she is clearly far more outwardly pro-choice than Trump.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbVPee2UdJk
https://therealnews.com/as-democrats-fold-to-the-gop-immigrants-pay-the-price
https://www.newsweek.com/dnc-2024-immigration-border-daca-kamala-harris-1942685
https://whyy.org/articles/harris-climate-energy-policy-domestic-oil-drilling/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2024/09/11/kamala-harris-fracking-gas-climate-change/
https://jacobin.com/2024/08/kamala-harris-economic-plans-verdict
https://fortune.com/2024/10/01/harris-economic-plan-middle-class-discontent-politics/
You're missing the point. Its NOT ENOUGH to be marginally better than Trump. You need to present a coherent alternative worldview, which she is failing to do by running to the center and saying as little as possible. What has she offered besides vague rhetoric on this? Is she going to end the fillibuster to restore abortion access? Is she going to reign in the extremest Supreme Court? Are they finding creative solutions with the FDA to regulate mifepristone? Will she proactively use the powers of the presidency to save lifes or is she going to talk about how important it is to codify Roe and then never do it?--
I appreciate the sources but c’mon dude, you could at least format stuff a bit.
First off, to your immigration sources: they’d support a claim like “Democrats are appealing to conservatives on immigration policy”, not “Democrats ran to the right of fascists on militarizing the border”. That’s a BS exaggeration.
To your link to Harris’ interview: She was asked if she trans people should have broad gender-affirming care access. Her answer was “I believe that people, as the law states, even on this issue about federal law, that that is a decision that doctors will make in terms of what is medically necessary. I’m not going to put myself in a position of a doctor”. That’s a 2-for-1 answer - “decisions should be left to doctors and patients” + “To any conservatives listening, that’s not just my belief, that’s the fucking law”. Saying “She just got on national TV and refused to support trans rights” is completely inaccurate.
To your economic sources: sure, those are food for thought. Here’re some more:
Nobel Laureate Letter of endorsement for Harris’ Economic Plan Perspective of former US Treasury Chief Economist Perspective by Economic Professor at University of Regensburg Perspective by NHC Perspectives of various other economists
Her implementation of the plan will matter more than what’s on paper, but that’s true of virtually any other economic plan she could propose. In any case “she’s not going to meaningfully redistribute wealth” is still a matter of what you define as “meaningful”, and I assert that your definition is different from that of the average middle American.
To your climate sources: All this is saying is that drilling may likely go up under Harris. If that were all that mattered, I bet you’d say Biden ”isn’t committed to climate change” either, since oil went up under him too. And I’d disagree, because what matters isn’t just reducing dirty energy production, it’s about accelerating clean energy production. So again, BS exaggeration.
> What has she offered besides vague rhetoric on this? Is she going to end the fillibuster to restore abortion access? Is she going to reign in the extremest Supreme Court? Are they finding creative solutions with the FDA to regulate mifepristone? Will she proactively use the powers of the presidency to save lifes or is she going to talk about how important it is to codify Roe and then never do it?
What a loaded last question. “And never do it” like she’ll choose not to sign roe codification into law if given the chance.
Yes, I know that’s probably not what you meant, but your only legitimate questions are the filibuster question and the “reigning in question” (The FDA already approves mifepristone, expanding approval doesn’t mean jack if the SC knocks it down).
To both those statements, to your entire post as a whole, and to this little quote in particular:
> You're missing the point. Its NOT ENOUGH to be marginally better than Trump. You need to present a coherent alternative worldview, which she is failing to do by running to the center and saying as little as possible.
I say: you’re the one missing the point, by ignoring the context of the thread you started. You opened with your opinion on why Trump’s fascism appeals to people, and you claim she has to give an “alternate worldview” to turn people away from that.
You can’t seriously think Harris could sway those people by talking about ending the filibuster, or reigning in the SCOTUS. Nor will she sway those people by talking more strongly about resolving the climate crisis, about protecting trans rights, about supporting abortion, about chilling out on illegal immigrants, etc. There is practically no one who wants her to take stronger left-leaning stances on all those things AND will vote for Trump instead. I only say “practically” because if the odds of that were say, 1:100mil, then hey, maybe a couple voters will do that. Everybody else? Not bought into Trump at all.
If you really do honestly feel Harris needs to go way farther left, then you’re just projecting what YOU want onto the people who are okay with Trump’s fascism.
It's literally not. They ran to the right of what Republicans wanted. There are countless articles talking about how it was everything and more than Republicans wanted and they only turned it down over politics. I can find literally dozens of these articles:
https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/democrats-border-bill-wrong/
https://www.vox.com/politics/2024/2/5/24062710/senate-immigration-bill-border-security-ukraine-2024
She literally got up on national TV and when was asked a direct, completely basic question about whether or not she supported trans peoples most fundamental issues, deflected, dodged and refused to give a vocal endorsement of their rights. You can not be serious with this answer, you know how bad this looks. Literally all she had to do was say "I support trans rights" or any other generic statement but she didn't because she thinks trans people are a liability to her campaign and she's hard pivoting to the right.
Haha, incredible. Do you think that Biden IS committed to climate change? Like in a meaningful, taking it as seriously as the end of the world doomsday scenario it is? His administration straight up lied about 'no new drilling'. They laughed at the Green New Deal. Democrats are all talk on the environment.
Will she prioritize it? Or will she pull an Obama who had the chance to do it but said "It wasnt the highest priority"? You think it's just gonna land on her desk with a wave of a magic wand? Will she FIGHT for it? Or are we getting another "I think we should obey the law" in a couple years.
It's about more than one single issue. Its about having a defined set of values that you care about and can be held accountable to. Being "Not Donald Trump" isn't that. You know why most Americans like Bernie Sanders? (Yes even the conservatives who scream about socialism) Because he's been saying the same shit for 30 years. You don't have to worry about him going up on a stage and wonder if he's going to suddenly backtrack on Medicare for All with some "I think we should follow the law" non-answer. He has values that he expresses, even when they're unpopular. Do you even really know what Kamala believes in? Or is she campaigning on whatever happens to be polling at 51% or better? For better or worse we all know what Trump believes in.
No you're not going to flip any single voter by saying you want to end the fillibuster or any given single policy issue. You get them to flip by demonstrating a clear set of values and sticking to them, so that when they have doubts about fascism they can look at the other side and know what it stands for. They know that there's a moral argument to be made for any of these policy decisions because the democratic leadership has spent every opportunity to educate about them.
These people are inundated with propaganda 24/7. If all they hear from the right is about how immigrants are rapists who steal our jobs and are flooding the border like a zombie apocalypse movie, and then they go to the left to see that the Democrats kind of agree but think we should only deport 50% of the immigrants instead of 100% of them and want the border to be only slightly more lethal, what conclusion do you think they're going to draw? Imagine for a second we had democratic leadership that weren't straight up cowards and NOW when undecideds look to the left they hear about how the vast majority of illegal immigration is due to overstayed visas and the border is kind of a sham topic. Now they hear that the border is already the deadliest border crossing in the world by a large margin and making it 5% deadlier isn't going to fix the issue. Now they hear that immigrants pay taxes into the system and don't get them back out, and are the foundation of many of our industries that would collapse without them (there's other issues here obviously). Now they hear about the cost of detaining and deporting people and they hear about what asylum means.
THAT's what it means to present an alternate world view. If you're offering people a choice between a Republican who is going to 100% deliver on fascism or a Democrat who barely knows what they stand for and is going to diddle around for 4 years and never make a coherent case for anything, or at best offers some Diet Republican policy, people are gonna just pick the fascist.
I can’t take you seriously. Not after you post a lazily constructed list of links, some of which are your response to me calling your border claim false, only for you then to be like “no actually wait here are more links for what I was actually trying to say”, only for the links to still not back your BS that democrats went “to the right of republicans”. (If you wanna point at anything specific to actually attempt to make your point, then go for it, but if it doesn’t actually back you then stop wasting my time with this).
Also not after you again ignore the specific question she was asked (do you support gender affirming care) and the answer I already quoted her giving (yes, it’s a matter between doctors and patients) so you can claim to know that the precise reason she used her words and not yours is “she thinks trans people are a liability to her campaign and she's hard pivoting to the right.”
Not after claiming to believe that Biden doesn’t care about climate change - no wait, that maybe he does, but not “in a meaningful, taking it as seriously as the end of the world doomsday scenario it is” kind of way, as though the policy matching that intensity (shutting off all fossil fuel production tomorrow) isn’t a move that’ll DEFINITELY get Trump elected so he can steer us full speed ahead into a climate catastrophe.
Not after acknowledging yourself that “you're not going to flip any single voter by saying you want to end the fillibuster” but playing that off like it’s just a random “given single policy issue”.
And certainly not after evoking Bernie Sanders as a positive figure, who is himself urging people to vote for Kamala.
The rest of your comment makes it very clear that you’re dug in, that you earnestly believe your projection onto all 70+ million people who are gonna vote for Trump, and that if Kamala was exactly the candidate you wish she was, that she’d magically sway people inundated with Fox News 24/7 because you have it all figured out.
Based on what you’ve said I wouldn’t be surprised if you either intend to vote for Stein or De La Cruz, or just want to push other people to do that.
Bro how desperate are you? The links all say the **same **thing. I could find you hundreds more that ALSO say the same thing. This was a HUGE news story a while back, this isn't even controversial. Republicans openly admitted that the bill went farther than the one they previously wrote and only killed it because Trump told them to. Are you gonna keep whining the more links I show you that prove me right?
https://newrepublic.com/article/178860/republicans-border-deal-michael-bennet
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/01/31/biden-border-deal-progressives-00138687
https://www.vox.com/politics/2024/2/5/24062710/senate-immigration-bill-border-security-ukraine-2024?utm_medium=social&utm_content=voxdotcom&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=vox.social
You're not arguing in good faith at this point.
Timestamp me the part where she says "yes". That's not what she said and you know it. You're just lying now.
That's the ONLY WAY TO CARE ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE. If you just pay it lipservice and then do all the bad things that are making the world boil, guess what! You don't actually care about climate change.
Yeah buddy the problem is structural. Selling out your values to chase after the mystical 'undecided middle' doesn't work. Democrats need to be a party of values that they live up to. If you don't see the difference between those things then I can't help you.
Where did I ever say anything about not voting for Kamala? You just don't have a leg to stand on.
Yes, I do as a matter of fact tend to argue for the things that I think are right and correct. Is this supposed to be some own? Since you're so right and smart why can't you even form a coherent response that doesn't involve straight up lying about the democrats own words.
I don't live in a swing state so yeah I'm gonna vote for PSL and talk about why I think that is good. Again, is that supposed to be some damning argument? Lol you're so out of steam.
Crying and shaking RN.
My guy…can you quote anything that specifically suggests democrats went to the right of Rebuplicans.
Here, I’ll help you: if you can link me anything that says that republicans killed the bill ‘because it goes too far to crack down on the border’, then that’d be democrats moving to the right of Republicans. Simply quoting that Republicans shut it down isn’t enough - they shut it down because Trump told them to, because he wanted to campaign on immigration. You’re quoting all this extra stuff about Democrats moving right, but you haven’t quoted a single thing to suggest they’re moving further right than Republicans. That was and still is the part I called BS on. Do you think you can manage that? Or are you gonna keep wasting your own time?
First off…technically, she does say “yes”, 17 seconds in. XD I’m starting to think you didn’t even watch the video.
Secondly, it’s an open-ended question. “Let me ask you this question, very broadly speaking here. Do you believe that transgender Americans should have access to gender-affirming care in this country?” Then, mid-answer, she’s asked “They’re trying to define you on this. I’m asking you to define yourself, though. Broadly speaking, what is your value? Do you believe they should have that access?” She gave an open-ended answer about gender affirming care, to an open-ended question about gender-affirming care, asserting that legislators shouldn’t be overruling doctors on gender-affirming care. I bet if she’d just answered the question with “yes” but no broad explanation, you’d complain that “she doesn’t have any beliefs, she’s just saying yes without thinking so trans people will elect her”.
Follow-up for you: tell me how her answer implies “no”. Oh, but wait, you’re a stickler for the exact words used, so I’ll speak in your language: Timestamp me the part where she says "no". Because that’s not what she said, and I’d like to say “you know that” but you probably didn’t watch the video.
Awfully convenient of you to cookie-cut straight through my statement mid-sentence to make it look like I don’t care about climate change, and to ignore the second part of that sentence. Y’know, the part you chose not to answer to because it was too hard.
The trump voters and the undecideds are the ones who are okay with Trump’s fascism, from supporting it to simply not caring about it. The group you started this whole discussion attempting to explain. Those voters don’t want Kamala to end the filibuster or to reign in the SCOTUS because that’s bad for moderate and conservative politics, the politics those people believe in. If she proposes doing those things, those people will be more inclined to vote Trump, meaning they’re more okay with him, either in spite of or because of his fascism. The subject of Kamala appealing more to guys like you or I with her campaign promises is a separate subject altogether.
Are you saying I’m wrong to assume YOU aren’t voting for Kamala, or to assume you’re talking about not voting for Kamala in general? I’ll hold onto both those assumptions for a bit longer…
Again, it doesn’t matter what you think, it matters what targets of Trump’s appeal think. You position yourself as someone who’s not okay with Trump’s fascism, but you think people who ARE will react positively to Kamala vocally taking a stronger left-leaning stance on a variety of issues. Even though that’s just what YOU want, hence my accusation of projection that you’ve so far not addressed.
Hey, there’s more of that projection I was just talking about
…Good thing I held on to those assumptions from earlier!
Lol
Oh I get it. You literally can't read anything longer than a tweet. You should have said that before hand. Again, the bill was a clone of a far right Republican bill from a year before that had even more items that Republicans wanted.
https://dondavis.house.gov/media/in-the-news/us-house-votes-down-border-bill-favored-conservatives
https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/democrats-border-bill-wrong/
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/analysis-senate-border-bill
Literally can do this all day. You want me to go on? Probably no since you're not gonna read any of that anyways or pretend those things don't actually say what they say. You argue like Ben Shapiro (pejorative).
Lol, desperate, desperate, desperate. That's not that I said and that's not why they killed it. The bill IS farther right than anything that Republicans passed through the house. As you even admit, they only killed it because Trump didn't want to give Democrats a "win". Then every Republican internally admitted that the border bill was the "best one" they would have ever gotten and gave them everything they wanted and more. Like it or not, that IS running to the right of Republicans. Can the Republicans change their stance and go farther right? Yeah of course, they're fascists. But it doesn't change the fact that Democrats were willing to go farther right than even fascists were proposing.
So she didn't substantively say what you're straight up lying about her saying? Apology accepted.
So "open ended" that she actually said nothing of substance. I've been arguing with people on the internet for decades and this is probably the most pathetic attempt to weasel away from a politicians words I've EVER seen. It's a yes or no question and she refused to answer.
She didn't say no. But that's not how political support works. When you support something you say it loudly and clearly (e.g. "I support M4A") When you don't support something you weasel out of it. ("Do you support M4A? - Well I support Americans getting access to the coverage they need as part of an important conversation between themselves and their doctors"). That's how politics works and only a literal child doesn't understand that.
Because it was irrelevant and you were rambling. I never said shut off all fossil fuel tomorrow and you are once again just making up stuff to respond to and get big mad about. Why would I respond to you just making new stuff up when there's so many other places in this conversation that you're also making stuff up that need to be addressed.
Bro they don't want any of Kamalas policies either! That's the point. If you want ANY chance of getting these people out of the grasp of fascist Trumpian progapanda you need to.... articulate. a. clear. alternate. vision. to. fascism. You are NEVER going to win them over by doing fascism lite. You are never going to win them over by running to the right - because the fascists can always just move more right. You will never win them over with feckless centrism. You MIGHT win them over by confronting their world view over a long period of time and making a MORAL case for why fascism is wrong. If you are not confronting the MORAL implications of fascism because you are agreeing with the base premises you are going to lose.
Again, I personally am not voting for Kamala because our election system is a joke and I live in a safe blue state and do not have to vote for her. I have not said anything about telling anyone else how to vote - I can't speak to anyone else's personal situation.
Do you not know how arguments work? Do you know where you are right now? What Trump supporters are part of this conversation? This is an online argument between you and me. I am arguing the things to you that I believe are correct. Because that's how arguments work. Did you expect me to come out here and argue for the opposite of what I believe?
Yes, it's the strategy that I PERSONALLY BELIEVE is the best. That is why I am arguing for it, here on the internet. Presumably you don't believe the same which is why you're arguing something different. That's how conversations work. Jesus Christ, can you even pass the Turing test? You see a turtle in a desert lying on it's back....
You appear to be conflating bills.
HR 3602, the focus of your first 2 quote blocks AND your first link is a REPUBLICAN bill. It was shot down overwhelmingly by democrats. Even Jerry Nadler, the guy your 2nd quote mentions, is a Democrat badmouthing the bill. (You conveniently cut right through the part of the text that said he was a Dem, which could've clued you in that this doesn't back you.)
HR 3602 IS a clone of HR2, the Republican immigration proposal from last year, but it's the wrong bill. The bipartisan border bill was HR815, before the border provisions were ripped out. BEFORE that happened, your very own 2nd link had this to say about the bill's substance:
Your "thenation" quote acknowledges that it is, in fact, written in part by Republicans. But it otherwise doesn't really get into policy details so as far as I'm concerned it's just prose.
And your "americanimmigrationcouncil" quote conveniently leaves out the very next sentences: "It would expand additional visas and future green card availability and offer a pathway to citizenship to Afghans, while also significantly increasing detention capacity. It is a mixed bag." I wouldn't interpret "mixed bag" to mean "right of fascism".
What you said was it's "right of fascists". To me "right of fascists" either means there're Republicans saying "whoa, this might be too extreme" or it means that comparing the democratic proposal and the republican proposal, the democratic proposal goes further right. In this case, HR2 is the republican proposal, HR815 was the bipartisan proposal. Can you come up with substantive differences where HR815 is MORE radical? If not, what you meant by your exaggeration doesn't matter, it's still an exaggeration.
We agree that Democrats moved right on immigration. But that'd necessarily mean that this proposal is to the right of previous compromises made in the House. Doesn't mean "to the right of fascists".
Yes
Slow down a sec. "Every" Republican said it gave them "everything they wanted and more"? Again, you're exaggerating. Yes, "some" Republicans admitted that it was 'the toughest deal they were gonna get', but that just means it was 'the best compromise Dems were willing to give'. (Like your own 2 links said, the substance of the bill contained stuff obviously to the left of Republicans.) From my POV, this was 2 parties meeting in the middle, closer to the right than democrats have ever gone, but still the middle.
Lol, you don't have to make it a big deal, just proof-watch your own stuff next time
Firstly, when you have to say you've been "arguing with people on the internet for decades", either that's true and...something you should reflect on, or you're just a kid lying about his/her age.
Secondly: again, her answer was “that is a decision that doctors will make in terms of what is medically necessary. I'm not going to put myself in a position of a doctor” How is that not equivalent to “we shouldn't be restricting access to gender-affirming care”, gender-affirming care being the specific focus of the question she was asked?
Yay! We agree!
Disagree with your analogue. The real question/answer is closer to "Broadly speaking, do you support abortion" - "Well, I belive that Americans should be able to have that conversation with their doctors, and I shouldn't have a say in that". I'm personally fine with that answer to that question.
No, you said we should be "taking it as seriously as the end of the world doomsday scenario it is". And the most appropriate action combat a threat of that magnitude is to shut off fossil fuels tomorrow. But that's obviously not pracical, because it can lead to backlash and the US doubling down harder on fossil fuels. So the point is: where do we draw the line between urgent climate action and practical, long-term climate action?
"get big mad about"? Kinda outting yourself further as a kid there, lol
I feel like we're going back and forth as far as the next paragraph is concerned, except for this nugget:
I agree with you on that. I think that's what many of those people need - someone to confront them with patience and empathy, who can slowly deradicalize them over time. But it's not Harris' job to deradicalize them, or to show them an "alternate worldview", that's the job of a Trump supporter's loved ones. Harris' first job is to win the election, no matter what she needs to say ('we'll be tougher on immigration going forward') or not say ('we're gonna overhaul the courts'). Her second job is to do the things that need to be done as president. And if Harris gets elected and she neither does anything about the courts, nor does she do anything about the filibuster by end of 2028, then you'll have been right to suspect her of not being "THAT strong" on abortion. But no matter what she says now, we simply won't know that until end-of-term.
Yes, a discussion between you and me...that started with being about Trump supporters. The beliefs that Trump supporters have is relevant to a discussion about Trump supporters.
Not saying I don't want her to BE a progressive candidate. I'm saying it's foolish for her to campaign like she's the polar opposite of Trump. I don't really care how she campaigns, as long as her campaign sits literally anywhere on the spectrum between "unabashedly socialist/communist" and "a little left-of-center". I think she's closer to left of that spectrum than you'll admit, but regardless of how she actually leans, I don't think it's wise for her to campaign to the left side of that spectrum - there are MILLIONS of centrists looking for an excuse not to vote for Trump, and there are WAY MORE of them than progressives who will ONLY vote for her if she campaigns like a radical leftist.
The harder you go on the insults, and the exaggerations, the more convincing it is that you're either too chronically online for your own good, or a kid, or both.
But I'm actually not saying those things to insult you, just trying to point out behaviors that you should consider toning down on. I'm sure flaming can be fun, but it's not very good for your own mental health - it can degrade your ability to empathize and affect your real life relationships more than you might think.
I know I'm just a random internet stranger...but just food for thought.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2023/07/14/remarks-by-vice-president-harris-on-combatting-climate-change-and-building-a-clean-energy-economy/ She is far better on climate change than Trump. She supports an energy transition. Trump hates wind farms.
"Better than Trump" is not an alternate worldview. This is why she's in danger of losing.
You're right, let's go with Hitler instead.
It's not just "one policy" though. That kind of reduces it to a bloodless difference of opinion or something. We're not haggling over tax rates or something, this is a literal, ongoing genocide. If Kamala is wrong on genocide, she can't be "good", no matter what other policy positions she has.
Sure. I totally understand that, but the stakes are different during an election in a system which at this very moment cannot and will not change. It serves to disenfranchise people.
You can and should campaign about this issue. At the same time, the stakes at present are not about whether the US will exit Israel or not. No amount of disapproval will change that fact, so why not focus on the things that will change, and come back to this later?
There's no "coming back to this later". People are being slaughtered as we speak. Later is too late. If we swallow this, then we've lost everything.
How is letting Donald "finish them" "best king of Israel" "Biden is trying to hold Netanyahu back, he should do the opposite" Trump (who admits he is on the phone almost daily convincing Netanyahu NOT TO CEASEFIRE) not going to be WORSE for Gaza.
If you even gave the tiniest of real shits about the Palestinian people, you would drop your sham "voter purity" nonsense and campaign as hard as you could for the one person who can possibly keep him from becoming commander in chief at a time when we really need an emotionally mature grown up in the White House: Kamala Harris.
They are being finished now. Biden is not doing anything to "hold Netanyahu back". Calling me a political purist for condemning unmitigated support of genocide is disgusting. If you don't want Trump to win, don't come at me about it-- come at the fucking democrat leadership who apparently care more about perpetuating atrocities in Gaza than winning the election.
Trump is spending time and effort unravelling whose ceasefire deal? Biden's.
So like a true trump supporter, you blame the democrats for what the republicans are doing.
I didn't call you a political purist. You're really not. I called out your sham "voter purity" where you pretend to care about Gaza and then advocate for lunatic geriatric genocidal trump to win.
I know it makes you feel better to imagine I'm a Trump supporter, so go right ahead. Biden can say the word "ceasefire" all he wants, but it does not mean a fucking thing if he remains absolutely unwavering in his material support for the ongoing genocide. What possible reason does Netanyahu have for stopping the slaughter? Biden pretends to disapprove slightly? What Trump does or doesn't talk to Netanyahu about is irrelevant.
It's not irrelevant. He's a hair's breadth from becoming commander in chief and then it won't be 10% or 20% of Palestinians killed, it'll be all of them. Trump really is that lunatic and that genicodal. Next he'll deport or put into camps all the Muslims in America. He'll not murder them in the street, he has his friend Netanyahu to do that, the people who he promised to shoot are the leftists.
Netanyahu is not feeling restrained in the least by Biden. He is murdering Palestinians at the rate he is willing and able to murder them. Trump won't wring his hands over it the dems occasionally pretend to do, but unlimited military and political support is already unlimited.
No. If he was, he wouldn't be doing the genocide thing.
He's feeling encouraged by geriatric genocidal Trump.
Presumably by your logic, individual gun shop owners are responsible for the all the deaths of children in school shootings in the USA, so you want to select as many Democrats as possible to stop the Republicans from blocking gun controls.
Why not promise trumpism with a wink, and then deliver none of it?
Because trumpists won't buy the act but Democrats will.
Because fascists can always move father right. You can’t out Republican the Republicans.
Her supporters on the lemmyverse keep saying that's what's she's doing...
Literally nobody is saying or thinking that
That's too bad; that was the only thing left that could convince me to vote for her.
And if a frog had wings it wouldn't bump its ass when it jumps.
When you sign up for a ml account, is there a test you have to take where all the correct answers are opposite of reality?
Some people (like me) just connect to lemmy the first time and end up on .ml without choosing it. I have no recollection of being given a choice.
It sounds like you’re coming at this from the perspective that Trump voters like Trump because his fascist talk makes them feel like he’ll wield Presidential power to “fight the evils of the people at the top of society”, but I disagree. I think for a lot of Trump voters it boils down to at least one of a few feelings:
a) abortion is murder, I’ll vote against the side that clearly supports abortion more
b) Immigrants and LGBTQ+ people are the devil
c) I want to afford the stuff I wish I had, and Trump will help me do that.
d) Every left-leaning person of power of any kind is a demon and should get what’s coming to them
IMO only the MAGA voters care about d). The average non-MAGA-but-still-Trump voter doesn’t care really care about “shadowy figures” “getting what’s coming to them”, they just want better lives for themselves as in c).
To sway those people, she doesn’t have to provide a “diametrically opposed worldview” to fascism - that makes it sound like what you think she needs is to run on creating a completely different way of living. It just means appealing to those in the camp of a), b) and/or c). Swaying believers of a) or b) without actually appealing to anti-abortion, anti-immigrant, or anti-LGBTQ+ reform is tricky, and tackling c) comes down to her positioning herself as the better candidate economically, but people in that camp have varied ideas on what’s best for the economy, so that’s tricky too.
But regardless, everyone who cares about the election and isn’t already in any of those camps isn’t gonna vote for Trump anyway, no matter how Harris campaigns.
Talking about a border wall is hardly coherent with rejecting mindless retribution. Harris and Waltz aren't at all blaming the elites for working people hardship, but they do blame the immigrants as well, more indirectly but still.
Yeah, because they need to convince people in the middle to vote for them, and people in the middle are stupid and racist.
Yes, that's the advantage of leading a cult.
I'm seeing ads on TV that are like "Harris is for they/them, Trump is for you"
I'd like to see an ad that says "Harris is for freedom, Trump is for Hitler"
Is it too much to ask her to go on a 10 minute rant about someone she showered with had the best vagina and every single lady that showered with her spoke highly of how great her vagina is?
I had thought the same thing
"liberal media" outlets are either actually run by conservatives or so obsessed with trying to appear balanced, they end up downplaying Trump and highlighting Harris issues. Combine that with the pure propoganda from conservative media, and the whole industry has a strong conservative slant...
I had a thought about this; fascism exists because there are evil but effective ways of swaying people. By scapegoating immigrants and providing propaganda, he's doing exactly what other fascists have done (including Hitler) to great success.
It's like any other good vs evil things, the good guys always have extra hurdles to deal with, like a super hero who has to save civilians and can't just sucker punch the baddies. Too bad this is reality, and the good guys aren't guaranteed to win...
it also shows how complicit media is in fascism and how any law that would enforce factual reporting by bringing conduct before a jury to decide whether intentional lying occurred by a celebrity or media platform would undermine fascistic lies.
Except half the jury would be comprised of people who either support those lies, even knowing they're lies, or don't care enough to form an opinion.
You would need a population that is both concerned with the rule of law and break from political teams enough to fairly examine arguments for bad faith.
We do not have that population. Any jury would be split or worse.
Realistic rebuttal: juries seem to have very easy times convicting trump in court cases.
Theoretical/contextual rebuttal: I would also note that juries are how we convict criminals in this country. If you're saying the lesser task of just making a determination that somebody is knowingly lying is beyond the purview of a jury then our entire court of law where the juries determine far more than that should be called into question.
To me it seems like less of a double standard and more of a representation of the divide between Americans.
Trump gets plenty of criticism from all around. Including from the same people that are also criticizing Harris. But his voter base is in full support of the stuff he's spewing, and will believe anything he says wholesale. Even if it's crazy, or unsubstantiated, or demonstrable lies.
The people who make legitimate criticisms of Harris are not supportive of trump. But them criticizing Trump will not change Trump. He already has unwavering support from a large number of people. Why would he do anything to gain the support of someone who is willing to call him out on his bullshit and hold him to an actual standard? And it's not going to change the minds of any of his cult-like voters. However they do have hope that by criticizing Harris they might see her actually make changes towards becoming a candidate they wholesale fully support. Not a candidate that they are forced to choose because of the alternative. But a candidate that they actively want to be elected. These criticisms might also be persuasive to other Harris supporters and call them to be vocal and advocate for her to change as well.
So it's less of individuals having double standards and treating the candidates differently, but the two polar opposite standards that the voter bases have.
Problem with that is, she's getting the pull from both sides, the far left and the disTrumpled right. She can't do enough of what either wants without losing the other, and she needs both to pull off a strong enough win to save democracy. So she's walking a tightthread while dodging spitballs.
Meanwhile Trump is splashing about in his pigsty, slinging mud and shit, which his people gleefully eat and smear all over.
the media often bandwagons along these things so end up with bizarre and insane juxtapositions of like Kamala Harris' actual proposed housing policies being being compared with like speculation on how mass deportations and military invasions of cities will affect housing prices or something.
Someone who gets it. The reason he gets so much play time in the media is because clicks. You are contributing to the problem. Not being part of the solution. Ignoring a problem in the public is how you stop them. The reason they keep doing it is because it works.
I'd love nothing more than to see her just spend an hour straight laying into Trump and Vance with f-bomb strewn attacks and continuous heavy-handed insults. I think she'd probably convert some Republicans if she did that.
Can we stop putting up articles stuck behind paywalls please?
They just want the headline anyways
Centrists look on Trump's base and wonder why they can't have a mindless cult too.
Micheal Bloomberg hates Donald Trump because he ain't Donald Trump.
Doesn't anyone feel like this has been the case for a long time with anyone versus Trump?
Actually, let me back that up, this seems to be a major Republican thing actually.
Democrats will follow the rules and try out an exemplary candidate up for President (most of the time).
Republicans will skirt the legality of everything possible to win with a candidate who embodies the worst human instincts and activity.
Maybe I'm the only one who feels that?
It's been true since he started the whole Birtherism bullshit with Obama, which was totally a lie and specifically racist. Bill Adair who started Politifact just started to advertise the reality of how bad the Republicans lie with his new book. Some info about it at https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/us-politics/republicans-democrats-lies-bill-adair-fact-check-politifact-trump-b2631493.html
This is a feature not a bug in a slaver's system.
It's the image that each candidate has crafted. Harris is running as an ultra-competent bureaucrat who will follow all the rules. Trump is running as an angry old fart who will break them.
Fascists in the media lionize Trump because they love the idea of a Rebel Billionaire breaking all the rules to MAGA.
And because so much of the media is owned and operated by fascists, you get a stark Trump bias.
But what are Dems going to do about it? Break up these mega-corp news conglomerates? Prosecute flagrant violations of election law by billionaire media magnets? Threaten these oligarchs in any conceivable way?
No. They're just going to get strung around by the nose, then complain that The Low Information Voter didn't see through the bullshit filling up their screens and airwaves.
The FTC is just starting to go after oligopolies. So yes, institutions supported by Democratic bureaucrats are going after powerful conglomerates. Results can be seen in the denial of the Capri tapestry merger and the language used by the judge in the case.
Will Harris replace Lina Khan once she gets into Biden's seat?
Depends if she goes behind Israeli lobby.
sigh
Laughing out loud bruh... A next level one liner burn... ʘ‿ʘ
One side's supporters partook in the education system while the other went to church?
They're accustomed to gibberish...
I hate to be a downer, but "it's not fair" doesn't really matter at this point. Trump continues to gain, and he's babbling incoherently most days and being quite clear that he plans to be a fascist from day one. Whether it's fair or not, there's is a huge double standard. If Harris does anything wrong she loses support. Trump daily explains gleefully how he's going to take away civil rights, begin mass deportations, purge the federal government and fill it with loyalists, and on, and on, and on, and on, and he's been slowly but steadily gaining support for a month.
Is there a huge, glaring double standard? Yes, absolutely. Does it matter for the blunt reality of the upcoming election? No, not at all.
Ended wars with France? Like when we deserted Afghanistan and left them in the mess we created?
It's not as if it was a beacon of prosperity and joy before the US came in. I'm not sure it arguably got better/worse during the time... It was different for the US occupation, and now it's back where it started. Lives lost, people traumatized, money thrown away, but at least some corpos got rich and PMC's had their babtism of fire... Onto the next one.
Maybe a propaganda pic, but I’ve seen many other such examples
Yes, but from '95 to '01 the Taliban also had a burqa mandate. It stems from the period the types like bin laden roamed Afghanistan free and used it as their training base. It attracted all the joyous spokes people for radical islam from around the world.
During this period they also blew up those ancient statues because depictions of humans are haram.
Liberals oppose war challenge level: impossible.
First rule of resisting tyranny:
Don’t obey in advance!!
Trump is targeting mostly far-right evangelicals who have a common vision on what they want the country to look like. He has a lot of energy when doing so, and because of how similar their interests are he could get away with all sorts of stuff and they would still vote for him.
Harris (and Democrats in general) is the only alternative mainstream candidate that everyone else has, and that "everyone else" consists of all sorts of people with conflicting interests: liberals, neoliberals, centrists, progressives, leftists, different religious groups or cultures, varying economic demographics, racial minorities, LGBTQ, and immigrants for instance. They're trying to appeal to all of them at once, but because they don't have a shared vision, nobody is happy and they get more scrutinized. To make at least some of them happy, they need to focus on certain groups and deprioritize the interests of other groups. However, once they do that then the groups they deprioritize get angry since they no longer have representation, and the groups that are still there remain skeptical because of the history of not working for their interests in the past.
The advantage that third parties like PSL have is that from the start, they're trying to appeal to a specific group of people with a common vision like Trump is instead of trying to play both sides with conflicting groups and making nobody happy. The problem (aside from the election duopoly bought out by corporations) is that they are a very small political minority so they have no real chance of winning the election without winning over people from other groups which is a challenge, especially when there are many more unknowns when it comes to progressing than there are when it comes to reverting to a previous state so there is more fragmentation due to those sort of disagreements.
This is the piece Robinson's fuming about, and he's absolutely fucking right. It was the most insane example of journalist circlejerking I've ever seen. Bunch of navel-gazing morons.
It's not about being perfect. It's about not regressing to a 2004 republican. That doesn't appealt to Republicans who have moved further right and not to the left who refuse to budge.
It's willful ignorance to complain that she needs to be perfect when the people complaining are often specific about the things they care about that are being ignored.
And if those are being ignored you can be shocked they won't vote for her and you must admit she's clearly not courting those voters either.
This is either a non-issue cause she is going for exactly the voters she wants or she's willingly creating a flaw by deciding to court votes that won't be enough to win.
I don't get how this is still an argument. It's happening exactly as participants are making it happen.
The problem isn't having a high standards for Harris. She is running for the most powerful position in probably the world, so she has to be able to do this. The problem is there is no standard for Trump at all. His supporters are fine with his low quality for lots of reasons, none that are helpful to the nation. The GOP is fine because of the votes he brings by being himself and saying things they think but couldn't say out loud. And the rest, like the media and the left and other country leaders are soft on calling a spade a spade because somehow pointing out the Emperor has no clothes and is shitting all over the furniture is not playing fair or isn't respectful or something.
Affirmative action for morons
Democrats credentials for presidency - they are not Trump.
Edit - In any other election cycle this is a legitimate question.
What are you bringing to the table? What is your policy position?
For both the parties.
Just because this election only party is eligible to represent doesnt mean that the questions shouldn't be asked. Browbeating undecided voters for the questions is wrong and might give the result no one wants.
In a two party system this is always true. But what do you mean by "Trump". What does it mean to not be like him?
That is the rhetoric that is prevalent on lemmy.
The position is to acknowledge results of an election. That should be enough. For more information there is a ton of resources like Harris' website.
It's been like this for nearly as long as I can remember.
Its the same with actual actions to. I just got done pasting a part of an article someone linked where the comment was about how under biden there is more drilling on federal land than trump but the salient part is he fought this but was blocked by a lawsuit from republican states. I have seen the same with his work with student loans. Its not enough. Its like dudes. Is half a loaf what we want. no. but its better than no loaf while wheat fields are ordered burned and salted. Maybe we should not vote for the guys trying to put the fire out because they are not putting them out fast enough vs how quickly they spread and should instead let the guys starting fires win and these other guys who have never put out a fire say if we vote for them they will put them out sooooo much better.
What else should the media do about it? It's not like Trump can be shamed into changing his behavior. It's not like Republicans won't completely dismiss anything he says. Even if they did wall to wall coverage about how he's a fascist, the third of the country that elects the president won't change their minds.
All they need to do is fact-check his bullshit like we saw in the debate. A simple "reporters here at XYZ network could not substantiate the claims made by the ex-president, and found no evidence supporting them" would do nicely.
That assumes he even cares about stating facts, or that his campaign won't spin it as "the media is mean to me" and it might make him do better.
Can any of you honestly say you have chosen which of the two is better based on how they speak? I think most are voting based on what they expect them to do.
Anyone who equates "not perfect" with supporting a genocide is not worth being read and taken seriously.
Not sure that's what the op's point was
I hope nobody tells Trump about Pol Pot,..
Are we still reading Washington Post?
You go high, we go low
"You criticized her for not being good at X so she did X a bunch!"
Yeah but she's bad at it and it went really poorly for her and hurt her numbers.
These people are fucking idiots.
Seriously? Even Fox News admitted that she handed them their own ass.
I have a hard time believing that but I don't know anything about it. I saw clips of the CNN town hall and she was horrendous.
"I dont vote for right wingers on the right or the left" is the closest I can get to a single standard to apply to all candidates.
But its more nuanced than that, isnt it-- as much as you'd like to pretend otherwise. You're either pretending not to understand, in which case you're just a troll, or you're too limited in your cognitive empathy to understand, in which case, you arent worth anyones time to talk to.
nearly perfect anyway
Oh then what if we had more than two parties ?
Oh, they all get called traitors.
First you have to fix the electoral college and FPTP voting. Because until those are removed, you’re always going to end up with effectively a two party system. And if one of those parties is pledging to replace the system with fascism, well, then you’ve only got one democratic option to vote for, no matter their platform.
Once you can rank your options? THEN multiple candidates makes sense.
I can only speak for myself, as a Leftist I dont expect perfection but I have a few quite simple things that I would want from a presidency that I dont think are unreasonable. I want an end to the funding of genocide, an end to US imperalism, an end to the military (at least offensive military), an end to fossil fuels, an improved immigration system, decreased taxes for the workers, less inflation, ranked choice voting, enforced civil rights for women and trans people, a better healthcare system, no corporate bailouts or funding. Kamala might support some or none of those things and I wouldn't know because she doesn't make her policy positions clear. I think that if she was just transparent and honest then more people would vote for her, as of now her campaign website contains only a few very vague positions.
We're fucked and will probably all starve to death. At least vote for Kamala so we don't devolve into fascism this fast.
the 60% of Americans that are paycheck to paycheck will starve to death, and the 39% who have savings will get poorer. The top 1% will get richer either way and none of this matters to them. Its just a matter of how fast their wealth increases.
They probably would be fine if half of us starved, as long as we dont block the higjways with our bodies, and dont stink up the place.
I voted for Kamala in early voting, it was the most painful thing I have done so far
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She lacks momentum and a charisma that gets people to follow you. So random critics can shout from the bleachers and say how they think she's doing it wrong. So they tell her to jump and she jumps. They tell her to move this way and she does. It's always wrong. Because they don't know what she needs to do either.
They know yelling at Trump is useless. They don't have any power over him. He'll do what he wants and says what he wants and we can try to call him out and he doesn't care and his followers don't either. In all his ignorance, he has confidence. Arguably because of his ignorance.
In all her intelligence, she's not sure what to do. But neither do the spectators. I'm not sure what she needs to do, but it probably has to come from somewhere inside herself and proclaim it without apology.
There's a lot of smart people in that room. I'm not sure there's much wisdom.
Kamala isn't really standing for anything, is trying to be too safe, and I don't think it's going too work to well
[What the fuck are you talking about?] (https://kamalaharris.com/issues)
This is exactly the issue that the post is about
There is not a single policy included in this two paragraph long statement.
It's the most transparent Politician Speak, saying an earful while telling you absolutely nothing.
If you could have bothered to read a few lines more, there's an entire 76-page PDF attached outlining plans and goals.
Now I'm not asking you to read the whole thing, but you're being disingenuous.
How much of it is more fluff like this?
If you'd like to single out the policies you think are meaningful, I'll happily pick through that chapter. But if the first two paragraphs are empty pablum, I'm not wasting my time with the next fifty.
Great idea. Have a good day.
"The introduction isn't an in depth policy explanation."
Fuck off.
And what doesTrump stands for? Let's see. Revenge against anyone who he doesn't like, threatens political opponents with military action, across the board tariffs that will result in retaliation from other countries, more tax cuts for the rich,.... Oh and Lots of fear mongering.
He is dangerous.
I don't think he is going to work too well.
Right but it's not about him. You can't point out how the sociopath with cult of sycophants is a problem cause that is obvious to those of us that care.
To those that don't it's just mud slinging that doesn't answer the fact they don't like her policies.
It won't work to just not be the other, you got to be preferable. I thought this was learned in 2016 but I see a lot this repeating itself.
When someone brings up they don't like Harris' policies it's not enough to shout back the other guy is obviously worse. It doesn't answer the point. And people are not that rational.
I'm pretty sure a lot of people who helped run Hillary's campaign are also helping to run Kamala's. They don't learn lol.
She stands for a lot of things, this exact kind of meaningless bullshit is the fucking problem