5:01 and Done: No One Wants to Schmooze After Work

MicroWave@lemmy.world to News@lemmy.world – 537 points – 5:01 and Done: No One Wants to Schmooze After Work
wsj.com

Office happy hours, client dinners and other after-hours work gatherings lose their luster as more people feel the pull of home

Patience for after-hours work socializing is wearing thin.

After an initial burst of postpandemic happy hours, rubber chicken dinners and mandatory office merriment, many employees are adopting a stricter 5:01-and-I’m-done attitude to their work schedules. More U.S. workers say they’re trying to draw thicker lines between work and the rest of life, and that often means clocking out and eschewing invites to socialize with co-workers. Corporate event planners say they’re already facing pushback for fall activities and any work-related functions that take place on weekends.

137

good. nobody is getting promoted or extra benefits this year anyway.

Companies when trying to get workers to bond: "We're a family, we take care of each other!"

Companies when workers ask for cost-of-living increases: "No, not like that"

Also wages are shit compared to inflation. I don't know how anyone can afford to eat out and have drinks unless they are killing it.

Wsj is owned by Murdoch. We aren't supposed to find reasons for this phenomenon, just a "hey that's weird, I wonder why ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯"

It's millennials fault for not buying stuff.

No, no. It's millennial's fault for not buying the right stuff.

Or for buying too much stuff. Or really, whatever problem is currently happening. It's the Millenials fault somehow, we'll just figure out how later.

Real wages are actually up.

The company I work for was nice enough to give me a 5% COL increase last year. Groceries are 50% higher. Gas 25%. Insurance 20%. Clothing is definitely at least 10%. Restaurants about 20%.

But yeah.... My "real" wage is higher.

I'm guessing you also believe in Keynesian economics.

Wait what's wrong with keynesian economics?

Nothing in particular, it’s better than classical economics and is an actual thing unlike MMT. It’s certainly not perfect, but I don’t know that a perfect school of economic thought is even possible.

No they're not. Wages have not kept up with inflation over the last few years.

Wages have not kept up with inflation over the last few years decades.

What's a real wage?

A measurement of nominal wages against a series of basket of goods indices that control for real-world value of earnings — accounting for inflation and a number of other market and environmental factors.

How does that work? Unless there's been some drastic improvements very recently, or billionaires are included, US wages have been losing purchasing power for decades.

When I last checked a few years ago, when accounting for inflation, average US wages had dropped about 5% compared to the 70s while the price of goods had increased by anywhere from 50-100% in most cases, with some things increasing by 200% or more. College, in particular, is up like 1,100% or something from the beginning of the 70s. Another absurd example is a taco at Taco Bell, which has doubled in price since the 90s, when accounting for inflation. The cost of rent has doubled since the 70s and has gotten even worse in recent years. The rule used to be not to spend more than 30% of your wages on rent. Now it's don't spend more than 60%. It used to be feasible to buy a house on the wages of 1 person. Now, it's barely viable to afford a house on the wages of 2 people.

Wealth inequality is the worst it's been in US history. According to the IRS, more than half of Americans made less than $20k last year - I think 51% made less than $15k. At a previous job where I made roughly $25k a year, I was making more than the bottom 60% of Americans. Raises haven't kept up with CoL increases for years now. The average American works 50 hours a week between 2 jobs and switches jobs every 2 years because it's the best way to make sure you're paid what your skills are actually worth.

I can't imagine where the data you saw came from, but that has the same vibes as when they said that people were going to take their COVID checks and use them to buy cars.

Eh I don’t mind a schmooze.

More than once a month? No. Weekends? No. Mandatory? Hell no, but I think that a bit of camaraderie goes a long, long way when dealing with iffy clients or just generally.

I don’t think work is “family” but it should definitely be a team. That’s just good for everyone. Raising a pint every so often definitely helps that along.

Our office I'm actually going to give them props for this - they do these events during work hours. Summer bbq? Close office 4 hrs early and it's free drinks and food for everyone. Annual golf event? Tuesday at noon, you can work or you can golf, your call.

Granted I'm too busy to partake for the most part but I'm not a clock puncher, and if I was, I'd appreciate the effort.

I agree, though it depends on the activity. Going for drinks is shitty on coworkers who don't drink. Going for BBQ is shitty on coworkers who are vegan/vegetarian. You can't please everyone, but I think it's very possible to at least not exclude anyone.

I worked at a place where everyone came in a bit early on Fridays for free bagels. It was nice to shoot the shit, and most people left a bit early in the afternoon to offset the earlier arrival. Maybe we lost a little productivity. However, everyone knew everyone in that office.

I appreciate you. I'm a teetotaling vegetarian. I usually manage to figure something out (and I try not to impose or be a killjoy), but it's easier when colleagues are looking out for you.

You'd be welcome at my barbecue. I've got one grill that is just for my vegan friends and has never had an animal product on it along with a set of separate utensils (although they get washed with the others).

But I do that for friends, coworkers aren't allowed to know where I live.

This is why I’m a fan of pot luck lunches.

Done right with a little planning so you don’t wind up with 5 bowls of Midwest Nasty Salad (that’s… the bland, disgusting potatoe salad white people up here think is “good”…. Where the sole flavor comes from that half-jar of dill relish juice….) one dessert and no protein…. Everybody gets to bring something that works for them. Bring enough to share. Maybe start a competition with differing teams “hosting” the thing. (Managment starts to get it off to a good start.)

We used to have those at my old workplace. It wasn't usually done well. Usually what ended up happening is that only half the people brought stuff and it wouldn't be enough to feed everyone, so someone would order a bunch of pizza to make up the difference. The worst was when nobody signed up to bring plates...

Having happy hours can be a blast if you get along well with your coworkers, and I do miss the holiday parties from previous companies.

But I'll gladly take being at home over anything else

So let me get this right….

It’s newsworthy that people don’t want to hang around their office and/or coworkers after work? People who get ally have seen the last few years shred their savings, who face continuous increases in the cost of living, and in America, no meaningful social protections, and very little vacation or freedom with their time and agency….don’t want to spend more time at their office?

Shocking, I say! Harrumph harrumph I’ve dropped my manacle, I’m so angry.

God I hate these events. My company took a stance where it gives every team $100 per head that expire at the end of every second quarter and life couldn’t be better. We’re a small team of 5 people so we just use the money to occasionally feast or buy every team member a PS5 in order and we couldn’t be happier that our HR isn’t forcing us to attend company events.

If you’re in position of power please promote something similar, your employees will thank you

This is my thing. I'm happy to schmooze when work is picking up the tab.

Even then I'm not a fan.

So instead of paying me OT to do things they want me to do after hours, they'll pay the cost of a meal or a drink?

Nah.

ITT: I don't want to ever socialize with my co-workers Also: How do you make friends as an adult?

Look I'm not a huge fan of forced socialization myself. I HATE small talk. I'm looking for the door before I have the first drink in my hand at "networking events". But I also know one of the biggest opportunities I have to meet new people as an adult is at at work. So I choose the situation carefully to make sure it's one I'm comfortable with and I give it a go. I've made a few lasting friends, people I play soccer with, people I invite over my house, people who my other friends got tight with, and over all growing my social group. A number of them don't even work for the same company anymore, or in my immediate office at least.

I'm not saying to do anything you don't want to do, and forced fun can suck, but if you DO want to meet people in life and make friends, don't force-limit your opportunities to interact with new people. Pick, or even suggest!, the situation that works for you.

Unless you have a hobby where you interact with people outside of work, your co-workers are your friends that you make as an adult. Some people I'm good friends with started as co-workers because I got to know them, we move on in different directions and stay in touch.

You will only ever make friends from pooled social gatherings (whether hobby, online, etc.), the most common one available for adults with the least effort are other co-workers.

All of my close friends were coworkers at one point. A few were friends first but most were not. It helps that my jobs have always been tech related so there’s always something to talk about. Even if it’s just commiserating on tech debt lol.

I tried making friends when my coworkers when I started my job and learned I have very little in common with any of them. It’s not like I didn’t try. Now that I know we can’t be friends, I don’t want to spend any more time with them than I have to. Is that so hard to understand?

Nope, not hard to understand. But that's a different context than people's blanket, "No".

I can very much relate to being in a work environment where I there was no one I'd choose to interact with outside of professional conversation or idle water-cooler talk; if even that!

I've also been lucky enough to be in other ones where I've made great friends that I've had over for game nights, taken road trips with, invited to my house, been to their wedding (and they mine), and gone to shows with.

All I'm suggesting is to be open to it.

I admit it's hard for me to make friends, but I'm not going to force a friendship with people with whom I have very little in common aside from working in the same office.

Yup, 100% with you there. I'm just saying that friendship can start with that one thing in common and grow. Or fizzle out when you quickly figure out it's the only thing in common.

As another responder said, work is potentially your largest adult social pool to source from. Don't dismiss it. But of course don't feel obligated either.

My experience with work "friends" has always gone this way:

  1. I try to be friendly and approachable.
  2. People start asking you consistently for favors, help, and to stick up for them and their issues. I also find that the more they know about you, the easier it is to ask for shit ("hey I remember you said/are/live around/have X, so I was wondering if you could do Y for me")
  3. Once that happens it's impossible to shake them off without sounding like an asshole.

The only solution I see to this curse is to just avoid getting cornered in that situation. I avoid most socializing because of that.

Now add to this the fact I'm severely underpaid compared to the rest of the team (who do the same thing I do), that I got a promotion with no raise, and than my duties consistently increase, then it would be clear why I only do what's needed for the job.

Honestly we need to move back towards making friends in our communities and not our workplace. I don't know how it happened but the way we've managed to only have friends from work while not knowing the name of our neighbor should never have been the norm. Of course this works out perfect for the nolifers who always get the promotions, and the bosses who need their asses kissed to function.

Because "3rd places" have been hollowed out, especially non monetized ones, there's fewer places to just meet people

Yeah, it's overwhelmingly clear that too many people who can make decisions have this idea that "not revenue generating" = worthless.

With 3rd places needing to be profitable, it puts a really big stress on them getting throughput. So then that turns them into bars, restaurants, pool halls, or arcades. If they don't they don't make money and they can't keep the space they are renting.

3rd places were always monetized.

Parks and community centers were valid non-monititzed 3rd places.

And whether or not you agree with them, places of worship were often an additional third place.

Parks and community spaces are presently non-monetized and usage has not changed, so it doesn't really make sense to include them in this discussion.

Same with place of worship.

We created a car-centric sprawled out world where you no longer engage with community members face to face, as much of your time outside of your house is simply walking to your car to drive to the nearest commercial center.

I've been talking with a friend about this after he pointed out the nuclear family really is fairly recent as a post WW2 thing. We've seen multigenerational households increase in the wake of the pandemic. Part of me thinks we're going to see a movement back to that.

If people stay closer to home, that means friends from growing up are closer. They aren't spread out across the whole country.

This is one of the most sadest and poignant things I’ve read in a long time. Spot on.

Always hated this expectation.

Particularly outrageous scenario 20 years ago, I was just getting started and was basically a limited hour part time employee making a bit more than minimum wage, but the office culture was dominated by people well into six figure salary. So they would act all shocked when us lowly folks would tend to decline when they said everyone needed to go to a $100 a plate for an after-work dinner (of course the company wouldn't pay for any of this, but who doesn't have the spare money to piss away $100 for a plate of food with colleagues every couple of weeks?)

When this was me, I'd always respond with, "I'm in if you're buying. Otherwise, it's not for me."

Every now and then I scored a free meal and a networking opp.

Honestly I never did this in the past 20 years of work. Maybe a few office parties outside of work hours. But the whole "Have your boss or subordinate over for dinner" BS was never my thing.

TBH I truly think it was a boomer invention that died in the 80s, because nobody I know ever did anything like this willingly.

This is about happy hours and networking events. Lots of people did that.

Ah that's fair.

Yeah had a few of those. They were always carefully written as "optional" but it was definitely a Convo piece of you didn't show up.

I typically showed face for an hour or two, had one beer, sucked up and left. Which is what I'm assuming everyone else did too

I fought my boss over one of those voluntary gatherings. I had shit to do. He said it's optional but if I want to get ahead I should go.

I did not get ahead.

But the whole “Have your boss or subordinate over for dinner” BS was never my thing.

TBH I truly think it was a boomer invention that died in the 80s, because nobody I know ever did anything like this willingly.

That was for a different time and era when company loyalty was a thing. When you intended to work for a company for decades, forming relationships with your boss actually meant something.

Nowadays employees are just disposable assets, so why bother forming deep bonds with your coworkers?

And back when your boss might actually also be the owner of the company - especially through the 50s and 60s, the person you worked for in the factory very likely could OWN that factory, and so having a decent relationship with them made it easier to approach them with modifications that might make a worker's day easier, without the hostility of a strike.

Now, since every company is basically owned by some conglomerate, looking to sell to some conglomerate, or is about to get swallowed by some conglomerate, things like "labor relations" are dead. You can't talk directly to your boss about maybe making sure the factory line has proper guards in place, because the guy who he has to talk to in order to make that decision is having brunch in Paris or meeting with some world leader today. Even if they could, the company bean counters already ran a cost-benefit analysis that showed that the loss of limbs and the payouts and fines they'd deal with for having no guards in place would only be 34% of the profit they'd make from increased production capability or whatever.

The day I was hired at my current job, my boss's boss "made" me promise I'd work there for a decade lol

Not every job sees you as disposable. Leave those jobs until you find one that appreciates you. I've found 2 (out of my last 4) in a decade, but they're out there.

Fuck work. They gotta bribe me to be there, I’m putting in minimal time and effort. Fuck all that bullshit.

It really depends on the work you're doing I guess. Can you imagine if a neurosurgeon who gonna operate on you (hypothetically) think like that?

I'd rather be cut into by a neurosurgeon who does it because he's paid than one who does it because it's fun...

By putting minimal time and effort? Good luck coming out of the surgery intact..

My work does a decent job of doing the event during working hours or at the very least starting within work hours. So a work event starts at 3PM, people can bail at 5PM or stay longer if they want.

Mandatory office happy hours or team dinners should be paid time. If not, events should be held during work day hours.

NLRB would likely agree. If your employer compels you to be present, they need to pay you.

I don't really even want to talk to my co-workers during work hours. It's not that I dislike them, it's just that I don't care. I'm not interested in making friends, I am there to get paid. Just let me get my shit over with and let me go home. Thankfully, my work allows me to wear noise-cancelling earbuds the entire time I'm in the office unless someone can't contact me over Slack for some reason.

I'm glad other people feel the same way. Sometimes i like the people i work with. But then they ask me after work if i want to go for a drink or whatever. No... why?

I'm glad I have a hybrid schedule (although WFH is the dream) so I only have to deal with inane prattle half the time and the earbuds mostly solve that problem.

I got you beat! One of my coworkers made eye contact with me while I was at my desk. I slid my monitor to the left to cover my face

I like my coworkers, just don't like being in the office, even if it's just an occasional thing

I hate bars, like really really hate them. I don't understand how to behave there. Everyone else seems to innately know how to be appropriately inappropriate, just the right level of rowdy. I like lounges, and the occasional club. But I never got the hang of bar social etiquette. So I CERTAINLY don't want to add the extra layer of complexity by putting my colleagues and bosses right the fuck there next to me. It's just awful for me and I know I'm not the only one. Especially since I cut out 99% of my drinking. Fuck that, I just want to go home.

Lustre, not luster. But I digress, I wish I had a better social connection with office colleagues, but yeah, everyone has to travel long distances to get home and they all have families and other responsibilities, it's impossible to socialise unfortunately.

Even when it is possible, usually colleagues are a disparate bunch with wildly different interests and personalities, and probably wouldn't make great friends anyway, as nice and professional as they all are at the office.

It's very depressing and lonely, but yeah. It seems like the older you get, the more impossible it is to make a friend.

same difference lustre is British english and luster is regular english

You mean British English and Simplified English?

If things were slightly different, everyone here would be typing in Scots English.

You mean real English and bastardised English right?

Ah yes I can decide between spending time with my wife and children or hanging out with coworker talking about work I've just been in for 8 hours. What a hard choice

This and this other comment are stark opposites of life.

Poor guy - I only work for the money - if I'd have enough money I would only spend time with my wife ane children and family and friends.

I absolutely love spending time with my kids, don't get me wrong.

They're seeing the abuse and it's terrifying. Luckily she sleeps in until about 2pm on weekends, so I use those mornings (including this morning) to take them to the park and spend time with them.

I've been trying to leave but she keeps threatening to take them away. I don't know what to do. I'm going to call a divorce lawyer on Monday.

I do absolutely everything for my kids. I cook dinner every night, I bathe them every night, I get them ready and take them to school every morning. I am a man so I'm terrified the court will rule in her favor and she'll take them away.

At night I'm reminded of how horrible of a person and father I am. I'm so tired of it.

Edit: I also absolutely love my job. I work on photocopiers. I feel like I help the community and make people happy. My job almost feels like a hobby to me. I am high functioning autistic and my obsession is anything mechanical, so it's the perfect job for me.

Mate you need evidence - collect a lot of evidence. Video and audio recording - messages - witnesses - everything you can get.

Hope you make it!

I am happy with my job. I am paid a fair wage for the work I do. I am given a ton of leeway with arriving late/leaving early to accommodate my kids and their various goings on. All in all, it's a great arrangement.

I am still out the door at the very minute my shift ends. Not a second later.

Yep!

I also drive a little bit faster headed home lol

Towards the "mines"? Not so much.

You doing 1 minute overtime? Why?

Logging off and packing up is your time not the companies! /s

(I jest but it wouldn’t surprise me if that’s policy in some places)

I'm happy to pack up on my time and work right up to the buzzer...

...if that means on the other end, the clock starts when I start my commute.

Because that's crazy talk to any employer, I'll prepare to leave on company time.

Back in the day of time cards, that was more or less how it worked (minus the commute part) the machine was either at the front door or in the break room, and you'd punch in, then go to your station, set up and start. End of day, you'd pack up, then punch out on your way out the door.

Many of the companies I've worked for had policies that required you to put on your PPE, gather your tools, and be at your station at the time your scheduled to start. This takes approximately 15-20 minutes. And no, we weren't allowed to leave until relieved by the next person.

Prep time should count as work time, it has anywhere I've worked.

And I believe a couple of the companies I've worked for have been sued, which is why they pay for prep time. But not all the companies in my industry (oil and gas) do.

I like my coworkers but work already doesn't leave me enough time at home for projects and hobbies and relaxing. No way I am spending extra time away after work.

precisely this.

I get along well enough with my coworker, but even if I were the socialising type, he's not the sort of person I'd typically hang out with. I'd much rather go home to my fiance, my cats, and my hobbies.

These events are a way for the employer to get free labour out of their employees as you'll most likely be talking about your similar interest which is work.

My workplace has a no alcohol policy so there is no such thing as after work beers

Do you work for AA?

Lol, nah. Part of the workplace is heavy manufacturing with things like forklifts driving around, so for safety they just made the whole workplace a dry zone

On one hand, I'm a bit bummed out that my generally positive workplace culture has all but completely evaporated in the wake of the pandemic and nobody wants to even come in to the office anymore, let alone mingle or hang out after work. I genuinely enjoyed the company of a few of my co-workers and even though I was definitely a 5:01-and-done kind of guy, I would still make an effort to be friends with the ones that I liked outside of a professional setting.

On the other hand, I absolutely cannot blame anybody for not wanting to put in the social effort. For a long time I was a "fuck it, it's quittin' time, I'm out of here!" person and I would blow out of the office after flatly rejecting my co-workers requests to hang after work because I just didn't like to socialize that much back then, and I would resent people who were pushy about going out for drinks or staying out really late at night. Despite the fact that I do enjoy doing those things now that I'm older, I don't want to be "that guy" to anyone else, and I refrain from judging anybody for declining to socialize after work. Maybe they are introverted and shy? Maybe they don't want to catch COVID? Maybe they have a kid to go home to? Maybe they just don't like my company and they want to go home and read a book or something? Whatever it is, it's none of my business, so more power to those people.

I kind of have similar vibes. I joined a company months after acquisition with a long 2 year migration to joining the mothership standards. During that time beers were opened at 4pm on Thursdays for team knowledge share sessions that carried over into happy hours that had a company tab for the first round. In this environment ive made lifelong friends, served as groomsmen and pallbearers for colleagues that I befriended, but also accelerated my career by making professional relationships with folks beyond the sphere of my immediate work duty relationships.I do think there was a "terroir" of conditions that made it work. I don't think it can easily be replicated. But it kind of bums me out that the current work culture described in the post basically blocks this from ever happening again. I don't think I'll be able to informally provide the mentorship and guidance that I so greatly benefited from when I was young and new to the now new generation, or cultivate friendships like I used to.

My company is similar (although there's still people trying to organise things) but while things changed over the pandemic, they were already planning on full hot desking and reduced floor space (lucky for them they'd just implemented the infrastructure for large scale WFH as the lockdown began). The sense of a "Team" has completely gone, the majority of people I work with are based in other parts of the country or even overseas, going to a social event at my local office would just be mingling with people I don't know, don't work with, and only have the name at the top of our paychecks in common. So I don't bother, and they wonder why.

I like how everyone they interview for this is someone no one really wants to hang out with. They sound nice but come on. If a fat dude who wears an LSU jersey to work every Friday is ever like, “I’m gonna be cooking some shit up in the park next Wednesday after work. Got a keg. Come on by on your way home.” we’d all go get a plate.

No one has time. I got shit to do, errands to run. Kids to pick up 39 min ago.

The only people staying after work for any reason, be it social or overtime, are the parents avoiding their kids. They make everyone else look bad, but it's them who should be shamed.

Yeah, I think the fact that fathers are in general far more involved in child care has had a massive effect.

This is factually wrong. You just made a tremendously broad statement with no backing that's trivially proven untrue.

I used to socialize after work and neither me nor the majority had children.

You are correct, and I admire anyone who can put anecdotal evidence forward to successfully prove a point.

I often forget extroverts exist.

Nobody wants to spend time with the kind of people who don't want to go home after work.

We all know the type with their overly loud laughing at the bosses jokes.

Depends on the work environment. Where I work I'm more than happy to hang out with my co workers after work, but that's because management doesn't shove a stick up everyone's ass, nor do we hire that type of people.

Hang with people I barely know on a personal level after work? Why would I do that? I've got another full-time job waiting for me: Life/parent. I barely have time for my own family, let alone a work 'family'.

... In a (generally) mildly toxic environment where I feel judged and under appreciated?

Count me out.

Workplaces used to be a lot more casual.

It can be beneficial to keep a good relationship with your coworkers. I've had more than a few opportunities come my way because I have a network of friends that I made at work.

"Work family?" You mean like the Manson Family?

I stay as long as possible because I don't want to go home to my abusive wife.

Sometimes I can't sleep on Sundays because I'm so excited to go to work the next day.

Are they gonna pay me for the time I spend at these "social events? No? Eat a bag o' dicks then.

Maybe if work is buying me drinks but otherwise, no thanks to awkward interactions with coworkers after hours.